View Full Version : Roughing the passer
broken12
10-11-2009, 09:07 PM
I noticed on the last drive after tamm brady fumbled on denvers third down that orton was hit in the knee on a blitz by the defense....why no call there is that something that mcdonals should send in so we can get those calls later into the season due to the fact we play some prima donnas this year and they will get the call....
My dear...every game has questionable calls that are called or not called, it isn't just a Bronco thing...;)
Just like 2 guys hit Kern on the punt right before they called us for hitting their punter. No call. Their punter is just a hell of an actor.
My dear...every game has questionable calls that are called or not called, it isn't just a Bronco thing...;)
Nope...it's an EVERY TEAM that faces the Pansies thing.
Nope...it's an EVERY TEAM that faces the Pansies thing.
It happened to us when we played the Giants also!
Medford Bronco
10-11-2009, 10:54 PM
Peyton Manning had a couple before the half tonight and I though Jeff Fisher was going to blow a gasket :lol:
aberdien
10-11-2009, 11:05 PM
We won, therefore i'm satisfied.
pnbronco
10-12-2009, 09:45 AM
Nope...it's an EVERY TEAM that faces the Pansies thing.
I almost lost it yesterday with all the bad calls that were not called on the Pansies and that were called on us. We did win but talk about.....:mad:
I almost lost it yesterday with all the bad calls that were not called on the Pansies and that were called on us. We did win but talk about.....:mad:
I don't know how a CB can have his arms wrapped around the waist of a WR and the ref don't make the call. :yardog: Marshall was going for the ball, the CB clearly had his hand wrapped around his waist and impeding Marshall's route prior to the ball getting to him. Wow, just wow.
When Royal was going for the ball at about the 4 yard line, the defender interfered, then taunted. Funny thing is...the yellow came out before the defender taunted. It should have been an interference.
Whatever happened to "In the Grasp"? Maybe that rule has been thrown to the old rule pile? Brady was about to be sacked and he threw it away. The ball made it to the original LOS but he was clearly still in the pocket. So "intentional grounding" should have been called as well.
The thing is, every game there are going to be calls made that we won't agree with and that is just a part of the game. Refs are human too. Even if they look like zebras.
topscribe
10-12-2009, 10:15 AM
Just like 2 guys hit Kern on the punt right before they called us for hitting their punter. No call. Their punter is just a hell of an actor.
That was worthy of an Oscar, wasn't it? As I watched the replay, I noticed
that, not only did the rusher not hit the punter (or barely grazed if he did), but
the punter spun to the direction opposite of that the rusher was going, IIRC. :rolleyes:
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Yesterday when the Chiefs played the Cowboys..one of their defenders was all over Bowe...clearly pass interference...Bowe was calling for the flag which he didn't get...Aikman was calling the game and he said that too many of these receivers always want a flag when it's just a good play on the defense or something to that effect...which I do agree with...In this case Bowe was right to ask for it.
I am sure there were some penalties that the Chiefs should have gotten called on them as well...I hate that friggin holding call as that is one call that I think half the time is BS.
Ah well I guess we can't expect the refs to get it right all the time but sometimes they do call some ignorant crap and at other times...they let some things go.
And can someone please explain to me this forward progress crap call? Yesterday one of our guys and I cannot remember right now who forced a fumble and recovered it...the play had not been whistled dead and they gave the ball back to Dallas...:rolleyes:
NightTrainLayne
10-12-2009, 10:31 AM
And can someone please explain to me this forward progress crap call? Yesterday one of our guys and I cannot remember right now who forced a fumble and recovered it...the play had not been whistled dead and they gave the ball back to Dallas...:rolleyes:
Same call happened in the Pats/Broncos game to our benefit. Belechick didn't look too happy about it.
Same call happened in the Pats/Broncos game to our benefit. Belechick didn't look too happy about it.
I don't get it..any explanation to why this is done..and like I said the call hadn't even been whistled dead...didn't seem right.
spikerman
10-12-2009, 10:36 AM
When Royal was going for the ball at about the 4 yard line, the defender interfered, then taunted. Funny thing is...the yellow came out before the defender taunted. It should have been an interference.
There was no interference because the ball was touched by another defender first. The flag we all saw on tv was actually picked up. The taunting flag came in from another official. Now, I haven't seen a replay, but at the time it happened it looked to me like the defender came in with a helmet to helmet hit and that should have been flagged, but maybe I saw it wrong and would have to take another look.
spikerman
10-12-2009, 10:39 AM
And can someone please explain to me this forward progress crap call? Yesterday one of our guys and I cannot remember right now who forced a fumble and recovered it...the play had not been whistled dead and they gave the ball back to Dallas...:rolleyes:
Speaking from an officiating point of view, forward progress is a very difficult judgement call to make. The official has to decide when the runner's progress has stopped and no longer has a realistic chance to break free. Once forward progress has been determined to be stopped the play should be blown dead and it can't be reviewed.
pnbronco
10-12-2009, 10:39 AM
So what about when Brady is going down and throws the ball away to avoid a sack. He was half way down when he threw that away, wasn't that intentional grounding?
NightTrainLayne
10-12-2009, 10:46 AM
So what about when Brady is going down and throws the ball away to avoid a sack. He was half way down when he threw that away, wasn't that intentional grounding?
It was close. As a Broncos fan I would have loved to see that, but in reality Brady pretty well broke free of DJ's grasp, and DJ just had a hold of his jersey, trying to pull him down.
On the other hand, the ball was not thrown anywhere near an eligible receiver, so it could go either way I suppose.
Day1BroncoFan
10-12-2009, 10:51 AM
I would be happy if the officials could just manage to be consistent in their calls but it seems they can some plays and let other plays go.
I know it can't be easy to do the officiating so I'll live with it and hope we get more going our way than not.
spikerman
10-12-2009, 10:56 AM
So what about when Brady is going down and throws the ball away to avoid a sack. He was half way down when he threw that away, wasn't that intentional grounding?
I think the issue with that was when it comes to quarterbacks the rule is "grasp and control". Brady was in his grasp, but was not under control.
topscribe
10-12-2009, 10:56 AM
It was close. As a Broncos fan I would have loved to see that, but in reality Brady pretty well broke free of DJ's grasp, and DJ just had a hold of his jersey, trying to pull him down.
On the other hand, the ball was not thrown anywhere near an eligible receiver, so it could go either way I suppose.
It was either intentional grounding, or it wasn't. For some reason, I didn't get
the benefit of a replay (I was working at the same time), but maybe Brady was
close to being out of the pocket . . .
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spikerman
10-12-2009, 10:58 AM
I would be happy if the officials could just manage to be consistent in their calls but it seems they can some plays and let other plays go.
I know it can't be easy to do the officiating so I'll live with it and hope we get more going our way than not.
Something that I was VERY surprised to learn once I started officiating is that it's much easier to see fouls, etc. the farther you are from the action. Believe it or not, a lot of these penalties are tough to spot from the field. Consistency would be great, but it is extremely difficult to see everything, even with 7 officials.
gregbroncs
10-12-2009, 10:58 AM
There were 2 plays I thought should have been called intentional grounding on Brady. He was in the pocket both times and threw it 15 yards out of bounds and no where near a receiver.
Gotta love the rules and how they are upheld!! :lol:
Now...how do we get that offensive holding down to 5 yards instead of 10? Seems a little excessive to me. :coffee:
spikerman
10-12-2009, 11:06 AM
There were 2 plays I thought should have been called intentional grounding on Brady. He was in the pocket both times and threw it 15 yards out of bounds and no where near a receiver.
I don't know. I only had the benefit of the tv angle, but to me it was pretty close as to whether it was grounding or not. I'm pretty sure that if there is doubt in the officials' minds it won't be considered grounding.
gregbroncs
10-12-2009, 11:09 AM
I don't know. I only had the benefit of the tv angle, but to me it was pretty close as to whether it was grounding or not. I'm pretty sure that if there is doubt in the officials' minds it won't be considered grounding.I thought one of them by the TV angle was clearly grounding and even the Broncos players were asking for it. The other one was not as clear but I thought it should also have been called.
Overall I do think the NFL has very good officials. It could be worse they could have NBA officials who are the worst in the world of sports. :cool:
NightTrainLayne
10-12-2009, 11:13 AM
I think the issue with that was when it comes to quarterbacks the rule is "grasp and control". Brady was in his grasp, but was not under control.
I meant to put this in my original post. Brady was certainly not under the control of DJ. This is why it was not intentional grounding. He had pretty well shaken DJ off on the play that I remember being the closest to an intentional grounding call.
gregbroncs
10-12-2009, 11:15 AM
I meant to put this in my original post. Brady was certainly not under the control of DJ. This is why it was not intentional grounding. He had pretty well shaken DJ off on the play that I remember being the closest to an intentional grounding call.
Under control or not does not matter with regards to intentional grounding. He was in the pocket and threw it out of bounds no where near a receiver. That should be intentional grounding regardless of if he was in control or not.
NightTrainLayne
10-12-2009, 11:18 AM
Under control or not does not matter with regards to intentional grounding. He was in the pocket and threw it out of bounds no where near a receiver. That should be intentional grounding regardless of if he was in control or not.
I don't think so, but I don't have the full rule in front of me. I see QB's air-mail balls out-of-bounds from the pocket all the time when nobody's open.
spikerman
10-12-2009, 11:18 AM
Under control or not does not matter with regards to intentional grounding. He was in the pocket and threw it out of bounds no where near a receiver. That should be intentional grounding regardless of if he was in control or not.
I know this wasn't addressed to me, but like I said earlier, I didn't feel like I had a great angle to see it from on tv and I don't remember all of the specifics, but I don't remember having any problem with it not being called at the time.
One thing to remember is that the "pocket" is now defined as tackle to tackle. We're only talking about a distance of 3 yards or so in either direction. If I remember the play correctly, Brady was drifting/forced to his left before he threw it. It's possible he was near the left tackle's original position and like I said earlier, if there is any doubt, the officials aren't going to call it (nor should they).
Bronco Warrior
10-12-2009, 11:23 AM
I noticed on the last drive after tamm brady fumbled on denvers third down that orton was hit in the knee on a blitz by the defense....why no call there is that something that mcdonals should send in so we can get those calls later into the season due to the fact we play some prima donnas this year and they will get the call....
The blitzing DB rolled right up his leg..I was screaming on the board about that at the time! BS Call!
Just like 2 guys hit Kern on the punt right before they called us for hitting their punter. No call. Their punter is just a hell of an actor.
The guys didbn't hit Kern but that is cause the dummy hurdled over the guy! Said then "Kern Take one for the team!
I don't know how a CB can have his arms wrapped around the waist of a WR and the ref don't make the call. :yardog: Marshall was going for the ball, the CB clearly had his hand wrapped around his waist and impeding Marshall's route prior to the ball getting to him. Wow, just wow.
When Royal was going for the ball at about the 4 yard line, the defender interfered, then taunted. Funny thing is...the yellow came out before the defender taunted. It should have been an interference.
Royal was mugged the whole game..especially the first half! That guy busts his ass every game!
Whatever happened to "In the Grasp"? Maybe that rule has been thrown to the old rule pile? Brady was about to be sacked and he threw it away. The ball made it to the original LOS but he was clearly still in the pocket. So "intentional grounding" should have been called as well..
So true! he was in the grasp in the Box and the ball flew 10 yards outta bound! Brady get the reach around from refs!
That was worthy of an Oscar, wasn't it? As I watched the replay, I noticed
that, not only did the rusher not hit the punter (or barely grazed if he did), but
the punter spun to the direction opposite of that the rusher was going, IIRC. :rolleyes:
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To quote my Game thread "And the Oscar goes to......." Defense stepped up as saved our ass TWICE!
Bronco Warrior
10-12-2009, 11:27 AM
I know this wasn't addressed to me, but like I said earlier, I didn't feel like I had a great angle to see it from on tv and I don't remember all of the specifics, but I don't remember having any problem with it not being called at the time.
One thing to remember is that the "pocket" is now defined as tackle to tackle. We're only talking about a distance of 3 yards or so in either direction. If I remember the play correctly, Brady was drifting/forced to his left before he threw it. It's possible he was near the left tackle's original position and like I said earlier, if there is any doubt, the officials aren't going to call it (nor should they).
Actually 3 yards barely covers from the center to either guard. try 15 yd wide box. Brady was between the hash marks..with a defender hanging off his jersey and threw it out of bounds ten yards. Grounding Period!
I don't think so, but I don't have the full rule in front of me. I see QB's air-mail balls out-of-bounds from the pocket all the time when nobody's open.
We'd have been called for it an ishload of times this season. Orton throws the air ball out of bounds every time there isn't a receiver open.
spikerman
10-12-2009, 11:35 AM
Actually 3 yards barely covers from the center to either guard. try 15 yd wide box. Brady was between the hash marks..with a defender hanging off his jersey and threw it out of bounds ten yards. Grounding Period!
The rule was clarified to state that the pocket ran from tackle to tackle. 3 yards equals 9 feet. It is no more than that from the normal position of the ball to the tackle, in fact it's less. Him being between the hash marks has absolutely nothing to do with whether he is in the pocket or not.
Bronco Warrior
10-12-2009, 11:48 AM
You can throw the ball away..or in the case of a spike to stop the clock as a different example but you can not throw it away inside the box "To avoid an imminante sack" enless it comes close to an eligible reciever or at or past the line of scrimmage.
spikerman
10-12-2009, 11:50 AM
You can throw the ball away..or in the case of a spike to stop the clock as a different example but you can not throw it away inside the box "To avoid an imminante sack" enless it comes close to an eligible reciever or at or past the line of scrimmage.
No argument there, my point is that I'm not so sure he was still "inside the box" when he threw it away. He may have been, but if there is any doubt, the officials are not going to call it.
CoachChaz
10-12-2009, 11:54 AM
And can someone please explain to me this forward progress crap call? Yesterday one of our guys and I cannot remember right now who forced a fumble and recovered it...the play had not been whistled dead and they gave the ball back to Dallas...:rolleyes:
I was forced to watch the game and you're right. Crayton caught the ball, took two steps to the right with a CB holding on when he was stripped. Brown recovered it, but they said progress stopped. How progress stops when you havent even had a chance to try to move anywhere...I dont know. I found it interesting because when Barber scored against Denver last week, it seemed like they gave him 10 seconds to break the plane.
No consistency at all.
pnbronco
10-12-2009, 12:00 PM
From where we sat(north stands), he was going down and I guess DJ was pulling him down and Brady threw it away. The crowd went nuts when they didn't call it. I guess it wasn't all bad because the crowd really got into it and got super loud after that, but from where I sat it looked like grounding. IMO they give Brady more of a benefit.....
(BTW can you imagine how much money was lost on yesterday's game...:laugh:)
Bronco Warrior
10-12-2009, 12:06 PM
In the National Football League, many rules have been made to protect the quarterback. However, one longstanding rule that actually favors the defense is the one that penalizes the offense if the QB illegally throws the ball away to avoid defensive pressure. The official NFL rules call this intentional grounding.
This is taken from the NFL Rule book!
http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/digestofrules
Intentional Grounding of Forward Pass
Intentional grounding of a forward pass is a foul: loss of down and 10 yards from previous spot if passer is in the field of play or loss of down at the spot of the foul if it occurs more than 10 yards behind the line or safety if passer is in his own end zone when ball is released.
Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion.
Intentional grounding will not be called when a passer, while out of the pocket and facing an imminent loss of yardage, throws a pass that lands at or beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player(s) have a realistic chance to catch the ball (including if the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or end line).
Pocket Area: Applies from a point two yards outside of either offensive tackle and includes the tight end if he drops off the line of scrimmage to pass protect. Pocket extends longitudinally behind the line back to offensive team’s own end line.
This has been clarified as between the hash marks as a lamens general guideline while others define it as inside the numbers depending on the formation. Regardless he was barely left of center with a defender hanging off of him, and it was way out of bounds! Intentional grounding!
In the National Football League, many rules have been made to protect the quarterback. However, one longstanding rule that actually favors the defense is the one that penalizes the offense if the QB illegally throws the ball away to avoid defensive pressure. The official NFL rules call this intentional grounding.
This is taken from the NFL Rule book!
http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/digestofrules
Intentional Grounding of Forward Pass
Intentional grounding of a forward pass is a foul: loss of down and 10 yards from previous spot if passer is in the field of play or loss of down at the spot of the foul if it occurs more than 10 yards behind the line or safety if passer is in his own end zone when ball is released.
Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion.
Intentional grounding will not be called when a passer, while out of the pocket and facing an imminent loss of yardage, throws a pass that lands at or beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player(s) have a realistic chance to catch the ball (including if the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or end line).
Pocket Area: Applies from a point two yards outside of either offensive tackle and includes the tight end if he drops off the line of scrimmage to pass protect. Pocket extends longitudinally behind the line back to offensive team’s own end line.
This has been clarified as between the hash marks as a lamens general guideline while others define it as inside the numbers depending on the formation. Regardless he was barely left of center with a defender hanging off of him, and it was way out of bounds! Intentional grounding!
Thank You Mr.Hochuli....:lol:
spikerman
10-12-2009, 12:13 PM
In the National Football League, many rules have been made to protect the quarterback. However, one longstanding rule that actually favors the defense is the one that penalizes the offense if the QB illegally throws the ball away to avoid defensive pressure. The official NFL rules call this intentional grounding.
This is taken from the NFL Rule book!
http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/digestofrules
Intentional Grounding of Forward Pass
Pocket Area: Applies from a point two yards outside of either offensive tackle and includes the tight end if he drops off the line of scrimmage to pass protect. Pocket extends longitudinally behind the line back to offensive team’s own end line.
This has been clarified as between the hash marks as a lamens general guideline while others define it as inside the numbers depending on the formation. Regardless he was barely left of center with a defender hanging off of him, and it was way out of bounds! Intentional grounding!
Ok, so it's an extra 2 yards. So we're talking 6 more feet? That's an additional 2 steps. My mistake for missing the 2 yards, but I don't think that changes anything. The part about it being clarified as "between the hashes" confuses me. I didn't see that in there. I may be missing it. I can guarantee that NFL officials are not told that the hash marks should be used. Primarily because the ball could be placed on one of those hashmarks at the start of the play so that would make it an unusable key.
Also, Brady could have thrown the ball into the 5th row of the stands, that also doesn't make it grounding. As long as he was outside of the pocket (I know that's the debate) and the ball was still inbounds when it passed the LOS, he can ultimately throw it as far out of bounds as he wants to.
Bronco Warrior
10-12-2009, 12:13 PM
You're Welcome KCL!! Any time! :P
Bronco Warrior
10-12-2009, 12:15 PM
HE was inside the Pocket, and WAS in the grasp of a defender dragging him down..it doesn't get more "Imminent" than that!
Bronco Warrior
10-12-2009, 12:17 PM
It, like many other rules especially when Brady the LAdy is involved, is a judgement call nd it wouldn't be a big deal if the "Judgement" didn't always overwhelmingly favor Tamm Lady and the Patriots! That is why we are on it so badly, and a pattern was evident even in our win!
spikerman
10-12-2009, 12:18 PM
HE was inside the Pocket, and WAS in the grasp of a defender dragging him down..it doesn't get more "Imminent" than that!
If he was inside the pocket, it's a penalty. I'm not saying he wasn't, I'm saying that I couldn't tell from the tv angle. Him being in the grasp doesn't matter one way or the other because you can't throw the ball away just for the sake of throwing it away while in the pocket.
It, like many other rules especially when Brady the LAdy is involved, is a judgement call nd it wouldn't be a big deal if the "Judgement" didn't always overwhelmingly favor Tamm Lady and the Patriots! That is why we are on it so badly, and a pattern was evident even in our win!
Come on now...if the refs are on Brady's (the lady) side as much as you seem to be indicating...then the Pats would have won.
spikerman
10-12-2009, 12:21 PM
It, like many other rules especially when Brady the LAdy is involved, is a judgement call nd it wouldn't be a big deal if the "Judgement" didn't always overwhelmingly favor Tamm Lady and the Patriots! That is why we are on it so badly, and a pattern was evident even in our win!
You're right, it is a judgement call, but I don't think the Patriots had that many more calls go in their favor than the Broncos had go in theirs. I took a look at one of the Pats message boards and they're complaining about the officitating too. When we do high school games we always say that if neither team is happy at the end of the game then we've done a good job. Looks to me like yesterday's officials did a good job. :D
You're right, it is a judgement call, but I don't think the Patriots had that many more calls go in their favor than the Broncos had go in theirs. I took a look at one of the Pats message boards and they're complaining about the officitating too. When we do high school games we always say that if neither team is happy at the end of the game then we've done a good job. Looks to me like yesterday's officials did a good job. :D
I guess I can blame all the Chief's losses on the refs...:rolleyes: :laugh:
spikerman
10-12-2009, 12:28 PM
I guess I can blame all the Chief's losses on the refs...:rolleyes: :laugh:
You might as well... ;)
You might as well... ;)
Yep and I think I will....ya know there are actually people who
do that...:lol:
Bronco Warrior
10-12-2009, 12:32 PM
There was a pattern... constant holding by Light, The mugging of Royal on every other play, the Punt penalties, the non-Grounding, the non-call of the DB of NE that slammed into Orton's legs...etc etc ETC! lol!
NightTrainLayne
10-12-2009, 12:32 PM
In the National Football League, many rules have been made to protect the quarterback. However, one longstanding rule that actually favors the defense is the one that penalizes the offense if the QB illegally throws the ball away to avoid defensive pressure. The official NFL rules call this intentional grounding.
This is taken from the NFL Rule book!
http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/digestofrules
Intentional Grounding of Forward Pass
Intentional grounding of a forward pass is a foul: loss of down and 10 yards from previous spot if passer is in the field of play or loss of down at the spot of the foul if it occurs more than 10 yards behind the line or safety if passer is in his own end zone when ball is released.
Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion.
Intentional grounding will not be called when a passer, while out of the pocket and facing an imminent loss of yardage, throws a pass that lands at or beyond the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player(s) have a realistic chance to catch the ball (including if the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or end line).
Pocket Area: Applies from a point two yards outside of either offensive tackle and includes the tight end if he drops off the line of scrimmage to pass protect. Pocket extends longitudinally behind the line back to offensive team’s own end line.
This has been clarified as between the hash marks as a lamens general guideline while others define it as inside the numbers depending on the formation. Regardless he was barely left of center with a defender hanging off of him, and it was way out of bounds! Intentional grounding!
The hash marks clarification that you speak of is simply not true. As stated above the ball is often placed ON the hash mark at the beginning of the play which would mean the Tackle nearest the sideline would be well past the hash mark.
The rule itself basically breaks down into two criteria with one exception (outside the pocket).
Criteria one: the ball is thrown without a realistic chance of completion.
Criteria two: the passer is facing an imminent threat of loss of yardage due to pressure from the defense.
If either one of those criteria is not present then it is not a foul. Both must happen on the same play.
Exception: If outside the pocket grounding is allowed, but the ball must be thrown back to at least the line of scrimmage.
In the play that we have been discussing, DJ blitzed, hit Brady, and Brady escaped for the most part, with DJ just barely holding onto Brady's jersey from a yard or so behind him.
I personally do not feel that Brady was in imminent danger of losing yardage at that moment, so criteria #2 is not met, and therefore it is not intentional grounding.
A QB can (and they do all the time) throw the ball away from inside the pocket. The only time it becomes grounding, is if they are in imminent danger of losing yardage. Which has always been held in the past to be in the grasp and under control of a defender at which point the play should be blown dead.
spikerman
10-12-2009, 12:36 PM
There was a pattern... constant holding by Light, The mugging of Royal on every other play, the Punt penalties, the non-Grounding, the non-call of the DB of NE that slammed into Orton's legs...etc etc ETC! lol!
Ok, we've beat the roughing the passer to death... so that aside, there is holding on EVERY play. There was nothing excessive by Light (that I saw). Simply grabbing a jersey doesn't constitute holding. I'm sure he did hold occasionally, but I guarantee you that some Broncos olinemen were holding too. If you were watching the game on tv, the announcers commented several times later in the game about how Denver hadn't been called for any penalties so it wasn't like the officials were being unfair.
My next question is what was wrong with those punt penalties? They WERE penalties. They were called correctly. As for going low on Orton, I saw that and have to admit that I'm not sure anymore when it's legal to go low and when it isn't on the QB. I actually remember the Broncos getting low on Brady once too and it wasn't called so I'm with you there. I'm stumped.
spikerman
10-12-2009, 12:39 PM
Yep and I think I will....ya know there are actually people who
do that...:lol:
I can believe it. You wouldn't believe how many games I've cost people at the high school level. :rolleyes:
Day1BroncoFan
10-12-2009, 12:41 PM
I'm not even sure the officials know what the new QB rule is yet. I think they need to have a meeting and figure it out. They all seem to have a different interpretation.
Bronco Warrior
10-12-2009, 12:42 PM
He was holding on to the jersey as the ball was thrown and the ball was 10 yards outta bounds! Both eliments were met. And to correct my own mistake...I can't find a "Feild marking that is used on the NFL that is true. In college it is defined as the Hash marks as general guidelines..Just called my my Bro in laws dad who is a college Defensive Coach (for the past 30 years including mine at BYU). He's like think about it..college hash marks are much wider, and when I watch the replay of the play in question the ball is snapped from the left hash..so that can't be a guide line with the hashes so narrow in Pro's. MY BAD! Got my rules mixed up. The box is much wider than the 18ft 6 inches between the hashes in NFL. :tsk:
spikerman
10-12-2009, 12:44 PM
He was holding on to the jersey as the ball was thrown and the ball was 10 yards outta bounds! Both eliments were met. And to correct my own mistake...I can't find a "Feild marking that is used on the NFL that is true. In college it is defined as the Hash marks as general guidelines..Just called my my Bro in laws dad who is a college Defensive Coach (for the past 30 years including mine at BYU). He's like think about it..college hash marks are much wider, and when I watch the replay of the play in question the ball is snapped from the left hash..so that can't be a guide line with the hashes so narrow in Pro's. MY BAD! Got my rules mixed up. The box is much wider than the 18ft 6 inches between the hashes in NFL. :tsk: I can tell you that in Texas we use NCAA rules (with a few exceptions) and we don't use the hash marks as keys either. We use the tackles.
Bronco Warrior
10-12-2009, 12:48 PM
Ok, we've beat the roughing the passer to death... so that aside, there is holding on EVERY play. There was nothing excessive by Light (that I saw). Simply grabbing a jersey doesn't constitute holding. I'm sure he did hold occasionally, but I guarantee you that some Broncos olinemen were holding too. If you were watching the game on tv, the announcers commented several times later in the game about how Denver hadn't been called for any penalties so it wasn't like the officials were being unfair.
My next question is what was wrong with those punt penalties? They WERE penalties. They were called correctly. As for going low on Orton, I saw that and have to admit that I'm not sure anymore when it's legal to go low and when it isn't on the QB. I actually remember the Broncos getting low on Brady once too and it wasn't called so I'm with you there. I'm stumped.
One was a graze, and a penalty and the other was a flop with no contact. great acting! My problem is with Kern jumping over the rusher that would have hit him and still grazed him! Kern get hit by the pitch! Take one for the team instead of using your athleticism to help the other team! :tsk:
as for the holding...He was grabbing the shoulderpads up under his jersey on the outside..actually gripping them and shoving him around, and they showed it on the replay every time they showed Light.
One was a graze, and a penalty and the other was a flop with no contact. great acting! My problem is with Kern jumping over the rusher that would have hit him and still grazed him! Kern get hit by the pitch! Take one for the team instead of using your athleticism to help the other team! :tsk:
as for the holding...He was grabbing the shoulderpads up under his jersey on the outside..actually gripping them and shoving him around, and they showed it on the replay every time they showed Light.
So tell me...who won the game?
Bronco Warrior
10-12-2009, 12:57 PM
Note: Pass blocking: Hand(s) thrust forward that slip outside the body of the defender will be legal if blocker immediately worked to bring them back inside. Hand(s) or arm(s) that encircle a defender—i.e., hook an opponent—are to be considered illegal and officials are to call a foul for holding.
Blocker cannot use his hands or arms to push from behind, hang onto, or encircle an opponent in a manner that restricts his movement as the play develops.
GRipping the outside edges on Doom's pads and jerking him to the ground is Holding! and he did it every play except when he was just holding on the same way and shoving him from side to side! I'm suprised he didn't jerk his pads up off Doom's head!
Bronco Warrior
10-12-2009, 12:58 PM
WE DID! :woot:
that doesn't change the fact that the refs TRIED to do a Ravens on us! :rofl:
Note: Pass blocking: Hand(s) thrust forward that slip outside the body of the defender will be legal if blocker immediately worked to bring them back inside. Hand(s) or arm(s) that encircle a defender—i.e., hook an opponent—are to be considered illegal and officials are to call a foul for holding.
Blocker cannot use his hands or arms to push from behind, hang onto, or encircle an opponent in a manner that restricts his movement as the play develops.
GRipping the outside edges on Doom's pads and jerking him to the ground is Holding! and he did it every play except when he was just holding on the same way and shoving him from side to side! I'm suprised he didn't jerk his pads up off Doom's head!
Go read my post about Bowe in yesterday's game against Dallas...big time pass interference...I know you could care less about the Chiefs but not all calls that should be called will get called...it's the nature of the beast I guess.
Note: Pass blocking: Hand(s) thrust forward that slip outside the body of the defender will be legal if blocker immediately worked to bring them back inside. Hand(s) or arm(s) that encircle a defender—i.e., hook an opponent—are to be considered illegal and officials are to call a foul for holding.
Blocker cannot use his hands or arms to push from behind, hang onto, or encircle an opponent in a manner that restricts his movement as the play develops.
GRipping the outside edges on Doom's pads and jerking him to the ground is Holding! and he did it every play except when he was just holding on the same way and shoving him from side to side! I'm suprised he didn't jerk his pads up off Doom's head!
Sadly, Doom gets that almost every friggen week. :yardog:
Go read my post about Bowe in yesterday's game against Dallas...big time pass interference...I know you could care less about the Chiefs but not all calls that should be called will get called...it's the nature of the beast I guess.
The point that is being made isn't that it doesn't happen often in the NFL...there just seems to be more for any team playing the Patriots. There just seems to be an overabundance of calls against Patriots opponents and a miss of calls against the Patriots.
This isn't just a Broncos Forums conversation. It is going on on just about every football website out there. Fox Sports has a commentary titled....Flag Football. In each of these articles it names Tom Brady and the Patriots specifically.
spikerman
10-12-2009, 01:51 PM
One was a graze, and a penalty and the other was a flop with no contact. great acting! My problem is with Kern jumping over the rusher that would have hit him and still grazed him! Kern get hit by the pitch! Take one for the team instead of using your athleticism to help the other team! :tsk: So your problem is with Kern and not the officials? When Reid hit the punter, that wasn't a "graze" that was legitimately running into the kicker. You probably noticed who McDaniels was mad at after that play, it wasn't the officials.
as for the holding...He was grabbing the shoulderpads up under his jersey on the outside..actually gripping them and shoving him around, and they showed it on the replay every time they showed Light. Yes, by rule there is holding on EVERY play by both teams, but that doesn't mean it should be called. How many times have you seen tackles "hook" pass rushers without a penalty being called? Yes, it happens to Dumervil, but Clady does it also. It's rarely called. For example, even at the high school level, we don't consider it holding if someone merely grabs the jersey. It's what they do after they grab it. If it is not used to change or inhibit the momentum of the player, it's not called. It would just be called too often. Yesterday I saw Light grab Dumervil's jersey as Dumervil bull rushed him. That grabbing of the jersey IMO did not inhibit Dumervil's progress toward Brady so no flag was thrown. At the same time if say Dumervil had tried to spin off or make another move and Light held on to the jersey and that is what stopped him then you have holding. Think of it as a "grab and tug" (but an EXTREMELY hard tug) that's when it should be called. Were there some cases it should have been called? Undoubtedly, but you can't call holding every time somebody's jersey is grabbed, especially on the LOS. That's just my $.02 though.
spikerman
10-12-2009, 01:56 PM
From nfl.com http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009101110/2009/REG5/patriots@broncos#tab:analyze
NE - Penalties (Number-Yards) 4 - 46
DEN - Penalties (Number-Yards) 3 - 20
What am I missing here? Why are we complaining about the officiating?
From nfl.com http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009101110/2009/REG5/patriots@broncos#tab:analyze
NE - Penalties (Number-Yards) 4 - 46
DEN - Penalties (Number-Yards) 3 - 20
What am I missing here? Why are we complaining about the officiating?
Lack of calls on the Patriots. :shrugs: We won, I'm not too worried about it, but as I said before this conversation isn't just going on on this message board. National guys are saying the same things. Ever heard the old saying...where there's fuel, there's fire.
spikerman
10-12-2009, 03:25 PM
Lack of calls on the Patriots. :shrugs: We won, I'm not too worried about it, but as I said before this conversation isn't just going on on this message board. National guys are saying the same things. Ever heard the old saying...where there's fuel, there's fire.
I have heard some national sports people saying they're starting to see evidence of a "Brady Rule" just like there was a "Jordan Rule" in the NBA. I certainly hope that's not the case. I personally didn't see it Sunday, but it seems like maybe I'm in the minority. I would like to believe that the NFL is better officiated than the NBA.
The point that is being made isn't that it doesn't happen often in the NFL...there just seems to be more for any team playing the Patriots. There just seems to be an overabundance of calls against Patriots opponents and a miss of calls against the Patriots.
This isn't just a Broncos Forums conversation. It is going on on just about every football website out there. Fox Sports has a commentary titled....Flag Football. In each of these articles it names Tom Brady and the Patriots specifically.
I understand what you're saying but I don't think (regardless of what FOX says) it's just happening with teams that play the Pats...IMO...but they're the experts not me...:laugh:
Bronco Warrior
10-12-2009, 04:01 PM
From nfl.com http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009101110/2009/REG5/patriots@broncos#tab:analyze
NE - Penalties (Number-Yards) 4 - 46
DEN - Penalties (Number-Yards) 3 - 20
What am I missing here? Why are we complaining about the officiating?
It's the lack of calls that bothered me! and we had alot of calls that weren't accepted by the Pats cause they made a play, and alot of Pat's calls that went away because we magically had one too. Royal is a hard working class act and he was coming out of his skin from all the first half no calls for PI! And Reids hit was grazing..his momentum in trying to turn back down feild to Block took him into the kicker who flopped..contact was minimal and by rule still a penalty, but the Punter was pandering to the refs too! When it comes to the Refs and the Pats...BS Calls, Blatent no-calls..there is more than one way to skin a Pat...I mean a Cat!!
Bronco Warrior
10-12-2009, 04:06 PM
There are a handful of QBs who get the calls and teams that the league would like to see do well which I can tell you, as a sports psych major, happens less in the NFL than say Basketball where it is rampant. It still does still creep into the equation some teams more than others! Brady and the Mannings don't bring in the kind of Endorsement money that say a Lebron or a Jordan do/did but it still is a factor. Man I wish I had got my Masters so I could get paid to evaluate this kinda stuff! :rofl:
spikerman
10-12-2009, 04:09 PM
It's the lack of calls that bothered me! and we had alot of calls that weren't accepted by the Pats cause they made a play, and alot of Pat's calls that went away because we magically had one too. Royal is a hard working class act and he was coming out of his skin from all the first half no calls for PI! And Reids hit was grazing..his momentum in trying to turn back down feild to Block took him into the kicker who flopped..contact was minimal and by rule still a penalty, but the Punter was pandering to the refs too! When it comes to the Refs and the Pats...BS Calls, Blatent no-calls..there is more than one way to skin a Pat...I mean a Cat!!
I can tell you that a WR calling for PI on any incomplete pass is as inevitable as death and taxes. They showed some of the plays on which he was calling for DPI..... I didn't see it. They were very close, even in slow motion, just imagine what it was like at full speed. If it's a "bang-bang" play the officials aren't going to call that 9/10 times. I bolded the most important part of your statement, imo. You, yourself are saying that it's a penalty. Personally, it looked to me like he did more than "graze" him. Obviously the punter tried to draw a "roughing" penalty - he didn't get it.
Look, if the officials were blatantly calling the game unfairly for NE -
A. - NE would have won
B. - They would not be employed by the NFL for very long.
spikerman
10-12-2009, 04:10 PM
There are a handful of QBs who get the calls and teams that the league would like to see do well which I can tell you, as a sports psych major, happens less in the NFL than say Basketball where it is rampant. It still does still creep into the equation some teams more than others! Brady and the Mannings don't bring in the kind of Endorsement money that say a Lebron or a Jordan do/did but it still is a factor. Man I wish I had got my Masters so I could get paid to evaluate this kinda stuff! :rofl:
I don't think the NFL lost any money with Brady out last year. The fact of the matter is that QBs are extremely vulnerable. Granted, I think the roughing the passer rule has gone too far, but I do think they need extra protection.
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