PDA

View Full Version : Jason Taylor a Bronco?



Denver Native (Carol)
12-21-2007, 11:03 AM
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/21/legwold-broncos-need-good-taylor/


Dolphins defensive end Jason Taylor showed a lot of heart as the Dolphins won their first game this season - a trait that will merit attention if he is traded during the offseason.

Dig through the league's vast pile of statistics and there will eventually be a page with Patrick Kerney's name at the top. It's the one with sacks, the one that says Kerney leads the NFL with 13 1/2.

Yes, the same Patrick Kerney the Broncos had made a top-shelf, send-his- old-position-coach- to-the-airport, just- got-to-have-him priority last March.

The same Patrick Kerney who signed in Seattle because many folks believe he simply got more of his guaranteed money up front, in the first year of the deal, than he could in a contract offer from the Broncos that contained roughly the same total at the bottom line.

And make no mistake, those 13 1/2 sacks, or anything close to it, would look pretty good in a Denver defense these days that has struggled to find both its identity and some consistency along the way.

Which is just exactly why, when the Miami Dolphins dangle defensive end Jason Taylor for a trade in the new year as expected, there are many in the league who believe the Broncos will be at the front of the line.

Broncos coach Mike Shanahan routinely swats away any public discourse over what he deems as "personnel issues," and Taylor's under contract anyway, so the Broncos couldn't say anything by league rules even if they weren't so averse to such things.

And March is indeed still a long way off - April's draft even further down the line - but the dots do connect after polling many league executives about where the potential action will be in the upcoming offseason.

The Dolphins, on track to finish with the league's worst record with plenty of room to spare, have an aging roster, especially on defense, and plenty of holes to fill on offense as well.

They will have the No. 1 pick of the draft but are expected to be looking for several picks instead to restock their roster, especially with no slam-dunk quarterback at the top of the board. The Broncos, even if they close with two wins, would be at 8-8 and have a pick in the upper half of the first round. The Rams were 8-8 in '06 and picked at No. 13; Carolina, at 8-8, had the No. 14 pick before trading it.

That will give Denver some juice to move if it wishes in a draft set to be loaded with talented juniors.

There is also the matter of the Broncos' difficulty, at least some agents have said, in landing their most coveted players in free agency of late because the team has chosen to split signing bonuses over multiple seasons or dole them out in multiple payments more often than some other teams.

A look at the Broncos' current payroll shows deferred bonus money negotiated into deals for Daniel Graham, Javon Walker, Matt Lepsis, Dre Bly, Travis Henry and Tom Nalen over the last two seasons alone.

And sometimes in free agency, especially if a team isn't coming off a playoff season and doesn't appear poised to make a run at a championship, players will often decide to head elsewhere for more guaranteed money in the first check that reaches their palm.

It is why at least some in the negotiation game around the league say the Broncos haven't reeled in players such as Kerney in recent free-agency junkets. The Broncos, with former Falcons assistant Bill Johnson - Kerney's former position coach and friend - were even thought to have the inside track on Kerney last March.

Johnson picked Kerney up at DIA for a visit that began with a bearhug, but that wasn't enough to bridge the business of business.

At least, in part, that also has made the Broncos one of the most active trading partners in the league, having pulled off the league's biggest trade - Clinton Portis for Champ Bailey and a draft pick in 2004 - in recent memory.

Their biggest move in free agency this year - acquiring Bly - also came in a trade, and no team in the past five years has been more willing to make more deals than the Broncos have, even going as far as to trade a former starter - Gerard Warren - to the Raiders, a team in their own division that had also once fired Shanahan.

For his part, Taylor will be 34 next season, but in this season of woe for the Dolphins, he has been one of the few consistent bright spots for a struggling team. His 10 sacks for a 1-13 team may be a more difficult feat than winning the league's Defensive Player of the Year honor was for him last season.

In the Dolphins' win on Sunday, Taylor had two sacks and blocked a field-goal attempt in a game the Dolphins won by six points. Don't think football people didn't notice that kind of effort came after 13 consecutive losses.

The Broncos, having now missed the playoffs two seasons in a row, are certainly expected to be active this offseason to change their recent ways. A player such as Taylor would not be part of a youth movement that could be at least part of the roster building, but he is one who has shown he will play at an elite level through almost any circumstance.

In short, there just aren't many of those around.

And in the coming months, there are plenty in the league who already think Shanahan will agree.

SR
12-21-2007, 11:11 AM
With our luck, we'd sign him or he either wouldn't do jack or he'd get hurt. We'll call that a "Simeon Rice".

BroncoAV06
12-21-2007, 11:27 AM
Jason is a great player but at the same time why would you give up a 1st round pick for someone that is 34? I guess at the same time it comes down to what the Broncos are going to be able to do in FA, ie bring in a vetern DT, etc.

Like it said March is still a long way to go so a lot could happen in that span.

topscribe
12-21-2007, 11:40 AM
Another defensive end? The Broncos are loaded with defensive ends.

They need a defensive tackle . . . or two.



Thanks for the read, Carol. :smile:


-----

underrated29
12-21-2007, 11:42 AM
NO! we dont need him, yeah he is great, but the price to get hime (high draft pick is not worth it.) besides we dont need anymore de. We need some DT, and LB. Who are our de-moss.elvis,crowder,ekuban,engelberger.

We do not need another one. Unless its for like a 3rd rdr.

Lonestar
12-21-2007, 01:23 PM
Another defensive end? The Broncos are loaded with defensive ends.

They need a defensive tackle . . . or two.



Thanks for the read, Carol. :smile:


-----

Or three for the matter..

Are we willing to give up on Moss, Crowder and Dumervil for another aging vet.. That frankly without some major help in the middle will be double or perhaps triple teamed like this year..


I know it is Christmas time and everyone has a wish list but DE should be way DOWN the list..

dogfish
12-21-2007, 01:28 PM
NOOOOOOOO!!!




:motz:

Requiem / The Dagda
12-21-2007, 01:51 PM
Stupidest idea ever. Thanks for the read though.

BOSSHOGG30
12-21-2007, 02:04 PM
I'm not too big on Jarvis Moss... I wasn't before the draft and I'm still not after the draft. I always envisioned him more of a 3-4 DE/linebacker. The only exception to the envision I have is Jason Taylor. Jarvis Moss reminds of Jason Taylor. I think Broncos drafted him for Bates with the same intentions. I think bringing Jason Taylor would not only help the Broncos for a year or two, but in the long run as well. Jarvis Moss would be able to learn from one of the best. Denver also needs leadership on the field. You don't want the entire team to be a bunch of young guys. It is good to have a mix of talent and experience. Overall I think it is a smart move... of course for the right price.

underrated29
12-21-2007, 02:07 PM
I'm not too big on Jarvis Moss... I wasn't before the draft and I'm still not after the draft. I always envisioned him more of a 3-4 DE/linebacker. The only exception to the envision I have is Jason Taylor. Jarvis Moss reminds of Jason Taylor. I think Broncos drafted him for Bates with the same intentions. I think bringing Jason Taylor would not only help the Broncos for a year or two, but in the long run as well. Jarvis Moss would be able to learn from one of the best. Denver also needs leadership on the field. You don't want the entire team to be a bunch of young guys. It is good to have a mix of talent and experience. Overall I think it is a smart move... of course for the right price.



yep, its the price thing i am worried about. Miami is surely going to want a 1st or 2nd for him. Not saying he isnt worth it, but for our team needs i dont think he is worth it. Unless we can work on a trade to ship (dare i say) elvis out for a 1st...he probably isnt worth it but for us he is...

silkamilkamonico
12-21-2007, 02:13 PM
Denver already has Ebeneezer Ekuban who is a very solid DE for veteran leadership.

All bringing Jason Taylor in would do is show the desperation of Mike Shanahan.

But he is a great player.

Lonestar
12-21-2007, 02:16 PM
Denver already has Ebeneezer Ekuban who is a very solid DE for veteran leadership.

All bringing Jason Taylor in would do is show the desperation of Mike Shanahan.

But he is a great player.

We showed that this year with Rice, I would not be against bringing him in if the price was right and by that I mean a 3-4 rounder.. Hew is worth a 3 year rental at the price but a #1 this dude was smoking some of Thenry's stash IMO.

BOSSHOGG30
12-21-2007, 02:17 PM
Denver already has Ebeneezer Ekuban who is a very solid DE for veteran leadership.

All bringing Jason Taylor in would do is show the desperation of Mike Shanahan.

But he is a great player.

Why wouldn't he be desperate?

Broncos Mtnman
12-21-2007, 02:29 PM
I saw that in todays paper.

WORST IDEA IN THE HISTORY OF IDEAS.

We have what we need at DE in the youngsters we already drafted. We need DTs - NOT DEs.

Still, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. If Bates gets to keep his job, he might make a push for such a move, having coached him in Miami.

topscribe
12-21-2007, 02:29 PM
Why wouldn't he be desperate?

Well, Shanny's not desperate at DE, I'll tell you that. Or at least he shouldn't be.

If a Haynesworth or somebody such as that comes available, let's here about it.

But the Broncos have DEs coming out of their ears.

-----

BOSSHOGG30
12-21-2007, 02:34 PM
Well, Shanny's not desperate at DE, I'll tell you that. Or at least he shouldn't be.

If a Haynesworth or somebody such as that comes available, let's here about it.

But the Broncos have DEs coming out of their ears.

-----

J.Moss is coming off a major injury.
Crowder is still young.
Dumervil can't stop the run.
Ekuban hasn't played in a full year and is also coming back from a majory injury.
What else do we have at defensive end?
Consider all of that and the fact we don't really have one guy who can demand double teams, offensive lines have their way with us.

Bronco4ever
12-21-2007, 02:36 PM
This wouldn't exactly tickle my fancy as far as moves go, but the guy is only one year removed from being the DPOY. I would be way more thrilled for a stout DT like Haynesworth, but Taylor is a gamer. Not totally down with this if it happens, but I could live with it. Maybe he could be a mentor for the likes of Doom, Moss, and Crowder?

topscribe
12-21-2007, 02:47 PM
J.Moss is coming off a major injury.
Crowder is still young.
Dumervil can't stop the run.
Ekuban hasn't played in a full year and is also coming back from a majory injury.
What else do we have at defensive end?
Consider all of that and the fact we don't really have one guy who can demand double teams, offensive lines have their way with us.

And it will stay that way until the Broncos add a good DT or two. ;)

-----

BOSSHOGG30
12-21-2007, 02:48 PM
We have a few people afraid to sign or trade for Taylor because of his age? But I don't know how many times I've seen somone mention Albert Haynesworth.

1st: Albert won't leave the Titans... they have plenty of salary cap to sign him or franchise him.
2nd: It's funny how players pick up there game when they are in a contract year.
3rd: He won't be available.

DenBronx
12-21-2007, 02:51 PM
this has to be the stupidest idea ever. taylor is going to be 35 by the time football starts next year. he has what, 1 or 2 more good years left??? even if he came over and had 1 good year with 13 sacks that would only mean guys like crowder and jarvis would not get their needed playing time. then we would send the dolphins a much needed draft choice. dumb dumb dumb if you ask me. taylor will soon be washed out and shanny will again be the laughing stock if he were to do that.

DenBronx
12-21-2007, 02:53 PM
no i take it back. DAFTING clarett was the supidest idea ever.

Skinny
12-21-2007, 02:56 PM
I think Crowders play is making Engleberger expendable. Engleberger signed a 3 year deal in Feb. 2006 and it can void into a 2 year deal from what John Clayton reports at ESPN. (Archives) Which would mean this could be his last season under contract.

Ekuban is a FA after this season correct?? And he's coming off a torn achilles so there's no telling what's going to happen there.

Those are the only 2 guys i can see as possibly not coming back next season. Gotta fill those cleats with someone ... IF that be the case. Taylor would be an upgrade and is just what Bates wants in a DE and we still have some pass rush issues in certian situations.

I'm just trying to justify why we would bring in a Jason Taylor ... and that's about the only scenerio i can come up with.

Far fetched i know but it is Friday! :rockon:

topscribe
12-21-2007, 02:57 PM
We have a few people afraid to sign or trade for Taylor because of his age? But I don't know how many times I've seen somone mention Albert Haynesworth.

1st: Albert won't leave the Titans... they have plenty of salary cap to sign him or franchise him.
2nd: It's funny how players pick up there game when they are in a contract year.
3rd: He won't be available.

In case you didn't notice, I said "Haynesworth or somebody." I believe people
here are talking about a Hayneworth-type. In other words, people here are
calling for a DT, not another DE.

Looks like we have some pretty smart people here. :coffee:

-----

dogfish
12-21-2007, 03:06 PM
In case you didn't notice, I said "Haynesworth or somebody." I believe people
here are talking about a Hayneworth-type. In other words, people here are
calling for a DT, not another DE.

Looks like we have some pretty smart people here. :coffee:

-----



and even the dummies like me can see that DT is our biggest need. . . not only have we been pathetic against the run this year, but we also fail to get the pass rush we should from our ends because we have no one to collapse the pocket from the interior of the line. . . having a stud DT like corey williams playing next to marcus thomas would go a long way towards solving both of those problems. . .

besides, you don't give up a high draft pick to bring in a mentor, and you don't deal valuable picks for one year rentals unless you think you're a player away from a super bowl. . . taylor isn't going to "put us over the top," and trading a high pick for him only extends the rebuilding process. . . we need to keep adding players to our young core, not bringing in over-the-hill talent on it's last legs. . .

DenBronx
12-21-2007, 03:07 PM
I think Crowders play is making Engleberger expendable. Engleberger signed a 3 year deal in Feb. 2006 and it can void into a 2 year deal from what John Clayton reports at ESPN. (Archives) Which would mean this could be his last season under contract.

Ekuban is a FA after this season correct?? And he's coming off a torn achilles so there's no telling what's going to happen there.

Those are the only 2 guys i can see as possibly not coming back next season. Gotta fill those cleats with someone ... IF that be the case. Taylor would be an upgrade and is just what Bates wants in a DE and we still have some pass rush issues in certian situations.

I'm just trying to justify why we would bring in a Jason Taylor ... and that's about the only scenerio i can come up with.

Far fetched i know but it is Friday! :rockon:


i didnt know that about engleberger. really, i don't think he is all that great but i do see them resigning ekuban.

just curious....what would they give the dolphins for taylor? a 3rd round pick? i don't even think he is worth that i say 4th rounder. then his salary is pretty big isnt it? i still think it would be dumb to go after him.

topscribe
12-21-2007, 03:12 PM
i didnt know that about engleberger. really, i don't think he is all that great but i do see them resigning ekuban.

just curious....what would they give the dolphins for taylor? a 3rd round pick? i don't even think he is worth that i say 4th rounder. then his salary is pretty big isnt it? i still think it would be dumb to go after him.

I don't think the Broncos even have a 3rd rounder this year, do they?

And if they were to entertain giving up a 4th rounder, I would hate the
thought of the Broncos having lost out on Kuper (4th round) to get a
34-year-old DE, if you know what I mean.

-----

Lonestar
12-21-2007, 03:13 PM
no i take it back. DAFTING clarett was the supidest idea ever.


There is a whole host of Mikeys stupid DAFT choices.. Although he is near the top..

BOSSHOGG30
12-21-2007, 03:14 PM
In case you didn't notice, I said "Haynesworth or somebody." I believe people
here are talking about a Hayneworth-type. In other words, people here are
calling for a DT, not another DE.

Looks like we have some pretty smart people here. :coffee:

-----

Did I say draft a DE? no! I know we need someone to man down DT with Marcus Thomas... I think everyone in the world knows Denver needs help at the DT position. I said bringing in Jason Taylor to help us makes sense. He will help our young guys develop and he will give us a force on the D-line...something we don't really have outside DOOM. As for your we need Hayneworth or someone like him... good luck... if this was a draft thread then maybe we could talk about guys like Sedrick Ellis or Glenn Dorsey as a possible 1st round pick, but it isn't and I'm discussing the good and bads about bringing in Jason Taylor.

If we are smart we will add depth at DE and work on improving the DT position as well, but there isn't any free agents outside of Albert Haynesworth... and he won't be available. So look at what is available and that is Jason Taylor.

Lonestar
12-21-2007, 03:19 PM
i didnt know that about engleberger. really, i don't think he is all that great but i do see them resigning ekuban.

just curious....what would they give the dolphins for taylor? a 3rd round pick? i don't even think he is worth that i say 4th rounder. then his salary is pretty big isnt it? i still think it would be dumb to go after him.


Taylor, Jason
View Stats at Players Inc Site
Player Info
Draft Info

DE (#99)
Year: 1997

Miami Dolphins
Round: 3

Weston, FL
Position: 13

Salary History

2001 2000000.00
2002 525000.00
2003 4500000.00
2004 660000.00
2005 3000000.00
2006 2750000.00
2007 7000000.00
2008 $7,500,000.00
2009 8000000.00


Just a modest sum I'd say..


Double dumb Idea..

BOSSHOGG30
12-21-2007, 03:20 PM
Taylor, Jason
View Stats at Players Inc Site
Player Info
Draft Info

DE (#99)
Year: 1997

Miami Dolphins
Round: 3

Weston, FL
Position: 13

Salary History

2001 2000000.00
2002 525000.00
2003 4500000.00
2004 660000.00
2005 3000000.00
2006 2750000.00
2007 7000000.00
2008 $7,500,000.00
2009 8000000.00


Just a modest sum I'd say..


Double dumb Idea..


He would have a new contract with Denver. It wouldn't be the same.

dogfish
12-21-2007, 03:29 PM
If we are smart we will add depth at DE and work on improving the DT position as well, but there isn't any free agents outside of Albert Haynesworth... and he won't be available. So look at what is available and that is Jason Taylor.


not true. . . corey williams from green bay will be a free agent. . . he's not a big name like taylor and haynseworth, but he's been a force for the packers' stout run D this year-- he's also capable of collapsing the pocket to get after the passer (he has 7 sacks and 3 forced fumbles so far). . . he's a quality athlete and a proven fit for bates' defense, which they still run in green bay, and he's just coming into the prime of his career (27 years old, not 34). . . the pack has a 1st rounder waiting in the wings to replace him, and many other needs, which make it likely that they won't make a serious attempt to resign him. . .

Lonestar
12-21-2007, 03:32 PM
He would have a new contract with Denver. It wouldn't be the same.


Who says he would? If he is traded the contract comes with him.. Unless he is willing to take less..

He is not worth 1.5 let alone 7.5..

Why should we be a dumping ground for old vets..

BOSSHOGG30
12-21-2007, 03:33 PM
Who says he would? If he is traded the contract comes with him.. Unless he is willing to take less..

He is not worth 1.5 let alone 7.5..

Why should we be a dumping ground for old vets..

Do you really think Denver will pay him that much... come on. It will be similar to the pay cut Moss took for the Pats. Players agree to take pay cuts all the time before they are traded.

BOSSHOGG30
12-21-2007, 03:35 PM
not true. . . corey williams from green bay will be a free agent. . . he's not a big name like taylor and haynseworth, but he's been a force for the packers' stout run D this year-- he's also capable of collapsing the pocket to get after the passer (he has 7 sacks and 3 forced fumbles so far). . . he's a quality athlete and a proven fit for bates' defense, which they still run in green bay, and he's just coming into the prime of his career (27 years old, not 34). . . the pack has a 1st rounder waiting in the wings to replace him, and many other needs, which make it likely that they won't make a serious attempt to resign him. . .

Corey Williams would be a solid pick up.... I agree.

Lonestar
12-21-2007, 03:42 PM
Do you really think Denver will pay him that much... come on. It will be similar to the pay cut Moss took for the Pats. Players agree to take pay cuts all the time before they are traded.

The issue is we really do not need him @1.5 let alone what his contract calls for.. If we were to trade for him the contract would stay UNLESS he would take less. Usually that means a healthy Signing bonus that we do not have after giving one to RICE last year.. among others..

If we did not have a raft of DE's already on the roster albeit Young they are all players.. I'd rather fix the issues we have instead of getting a "MENTOR" for big bucks..

If he were a quality DT I'd do it in a heart beat, but a 35 year old, 1 or 2 year rental does not make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside especially after the BROWNCO and RICE debacle.. and all of the signing bonuses we have in dead cap space..

The future of this team is building it though the draft not signing over the hill players..

BOSSHOGG30
12-21-2007, 03:52 PM
The issue is we really do not need him @1.5 let alone what his contract calls for.. If we were to trade for him the contract would stay UNLESS he would take less. Usually that means a healthy Signing bonus that we do not have after giving one to RICE last year.. among others..

If we did not have a raft of DE's already on the roster albeit Young they are all players.. I'd rather fix the issues we have instead of getting a "MENTOR" for big bucks..

If he were a quality DT I'd do it in a heart beat, but a 35 year old, 1 or 2 year rental does not make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside especially after the BROWNCO and RICE debacle.. and all of the signing bonuses we have in dead cap space..

The future of this team is building it though the draft not signing over the hill players..


fair enough... it's ok to have your own opinion. I can see where your coming from, but I can also see why Denver would be intrested.

If it was up to me I wouldn't trade for him. I've always been a big draft guy. I only like a few free agents this year anyways. I doubt they will all be available due to the increase in salary cap for 2008. And if I had my way I would sign a good OLB, a tackle, and Nnamdi Asomugha and trade Dre Bly. That way I could enter the 2008 NFL draft focused on DT and Safety.

T: Travelle Wharton
DE: Jared Allen
DE: Bobby McCray
DT: Corey Williams
OLB: Boss Bailey
OLB: Lance Briggs
OLB/DE: Terrell Suggs
OLB: Karlos Dansby
CB: Nnamdi Asomugha
S: Erik Coleman
S: Madieu Williams

MHCBill
12-21-2007, 03:58 PM
Right on Boss!!!

BOSSHOGG30
12-21-2007, 04:06 PM
Right on Boss!!!

Can you imagine starting the season with:

Nnamdi Asomugha & Champ
Briggs or Suggs, D.J., Winborn or Webster
Macrus Thomas & Sedrick Ellis or Glenn Dorsey
Doom, Crowder, Moss (even Suggs if he was the OLB signed)
Abdullah & 2nd round pick rookie/John Lynch

Still have some weak spots, but hopefully trading Bly and using the rest of our draft picks wisely it would build a hopeful defense.

(oh and don't sleep on Roderick Rogers, I've seen him play for many years)

MHCBill
12-21-2007, 04:07 PM
You think Oakland would let him go?

BOSSHOGG30
12-21-2007, 04:08 PM
You think Oakland would let him go?

I don't remember what their salary cap is like.. but no I don't think they let him walk. He will probably get the franchise tag.

MHCBill
12-21-2007, 04:10 PM
I don't remember what their salary cap is like.. but no I don't think they let him walk. He will probably get the franchise tag.
Agreed.......

TXBRONC
12-21-2007, 05:35 PM
We don't need yet another verteran defensive end. If the guys we have at defensive end are going to develop they're go need to play more instead of sitting behind a short term player.

broncofanatic1987
12-21-2007, 07:25 PM
Going after Taylor would be stupid. It would be smarter to try to bring Keith Traylor back and I don't advocate that either. We don't need a defensive end. We need a defensive tackle that fits Bates' base scheme, maybe two tackles.

At 34, I don't see anyone giving up a 1st round pick for Taylor. A 3rd round pick maybe, but we don't have one of those. I would be disappointed if the Broncos were to make a trade for Taylor. It's one thing to trade for a veteran that's still in his prime, but a completely different thing to trade for one that is at the age when most start to decline. If the Dolphins release Taylor and the Broncos sign him in FA, that's fine. But, don't give up a draft pick for him. That's ridiculous.

TXBRONC
12-21-2007, 08:32 PM
Going after Taylor would be stupid. It would be smarter to try to bring Keith Traylor back and I don't advocate that either. We don't need a defensive end. We need a defensive tackle that fits Bates' base scheme, maybe two tackles.

At 34, I don't see anyone giving up a 1st round pick for Taylor. A 3rd round pick maybe, but we don't have one of those. I would be disappointed if the Broncos were to make a trade for Taylor. It's one thing to trade for a veteran that's still in his prime, but a completely different thing to trade for one that is at the age when most start to decline. If the Dolphins release Taylor and the Broncos sign him in FA, that's fine. But, don't give up a draft pick for him. That's ridiculous.


A third round pick in my opinion would still be way to high in my opinion. Like I said he's still productive but there is just no way that trading for Taylor really pans outs.

DenBronx
12-21-2007, 09:06 PM
2007 7000000.00
2008 $7,500,000.00
2009 8000000.00


Just a modest sum I'd say..


Double dumb Idea..



double dumb is right....how could anyone seriously think that shanahan would go after this guy with this kind of contract at this stage in his career?

we only have 16 mill cap room and he would eat close to half of it just by himself.

DenBronx
12-21-2007, 09:11 PM
If the Dolphins release Taylor and the Broncos sign him in FA, that's fine. But, don't give up a draft pick for him. That's ridiculous.

that would be the only scenario that i could see at this point. really the dolphins would take a big cap hit by doing that though. taylor is worth 3 to 4 mill right now...pretty much what rice was getting here but at least taylor isnt injured.

broncosfanscott
12-21-2007, 09:32 PM
Jason Taylor is a good player don't get me wrong, yet I would like to have guys in there that will be here for the long run instead of a veteran who might not last too long. We have grabbed some young talent in the past two drafts so Denver needs to keep that up. We need to get some depth.

Simple Jaded
12-21-2007, 10:45 PM
I like the idea....Seriously, unless they give anything more than a 5th round pick, it's a good idea.

A veteran leader with talent, the Broncos need some of those too, Denver does not have enough young players to do the Colorado Rockies type "Youth ONLY movement".

Even if they continue to draft well, they still need veteran leadership, especially in the front seven. Plus, Taylor has experience in Bates system!

Oh, and btw, he might be the Broncos best pass rusher the second he takes the field......

Lonestar
12-21-2007, 10:53 PM
I like the idea....Seriously, unless they give anything more than a 5th round pick, it's a good idea.

A veteran leader with talent, the Broncos need some of those too, Denver does not have enough young players to do the Colorado Rockies type "Youth ONLY movement".

Even if they continue to draft well, they still need veteran leadership, especially in the front seven. Plus, Taylor has experience in Bates system!

Oh, and btw, he might be the Broncos best pass rusher the second he takes the field......


But who is gonna keep the double teams off of him?..

broncofanatic1987
12-21-2007, 11:04 PM
But who is gonna keep the double teams off of him?..

Exactly! Good point!

Stand Ablaze
12-21-2007, 11:18 PM
Doesn't Dumervil get double teamed as it is?

Lonestar
12-21-2007, 11:29 PM
Doesn't Dumervil get double teamed as it is?


Not like he would.. so far everyone thinks they can contain the runt. Much to there surprise he might be short for a DE but he plays big..

He plays with chip on his shoudler.. Do you think Taylor would?

fcspikeit
12-21-2007, 11:36 PM
But who is gonna keep the double teams off of him?..

That can be said for any D-lineman we get rather draft or by FA. No one is saying we should just get him and him alone. Even if we draft the Best DT on the board with our 1st pick Who is going to keep the double team's off of him?

Does that mean because we have so many holes on the front line that we shouldn't even bother trying to improve because fixing one spot isn't enough?

Moss really didn't show us he could be the all around DE we need. For that matter Elvis is to small to be effective against the run. JT could play every down for us, guys like that are hard to find. Elvis could come in on passing downs splitting time with TC and moss could come in, in relief for JT and learn from one of the best to ever play.

I don't like the idea of trading our 1st round pick for him but a 2nt or 3rd? I remember saying how I wanted Karney and I believe he would have really helped this team. JT is a winner that never quits. He was the DMVP last year. I would be really excited if we got him.

I don't think Shanahan should get him then forget about the rest of our D-line. But why not bring a guy in that is playing well right now? Hopefully we have the guys of the future but they are not there yet. Maybe we could get JT and their 2nd pick for our first. Then we could still get an impact DT and LB and have 2 of the best pass rushing DE's in the game.

Lonestar
12-22-2007, 12:41 AM
That can be said for any D-lineman we get rather draft or by FA. No one is saying we should just get him and him alone. Even if we draft the Best DT on the board with our 1st pick Who is going to keep the double team's off of him?

Does that mean because we have so many holes on the front line that we shouldn't even bother trying to improve because fixing one spot isn't enough?

Moss really didn't show us he could be the all around DE we need. For that matter Elvis is to small to be effective against the run. JT could play every down for us, guys like that are hard to find. Elvis could come in on passing downs splitting time with TC and moss could come in, in relief for JT and learn from one of the best to ever play.

I don't like the idea of trading our 1st round pick for him but a 2nt or 3rd? I remember saying how I wanted Karney and I believe he would have really helped this team. JT is a winner that never quits. He was the DMVP last year. I would be really excited if we got him.

I don't think Shanahan should get him then forget about the rest of our D-line. But why not bring a guy in that is playing well right now? Hopefully we have the guys of the future but they are not there yet. Maybe we could get JT and their 2nd pick for our first. Then we could still get an impact DT and LB and have 2 of the best pass rushing DE's in the game.


While I see what your saying mikey has had a habit with eh exception of the browncos fiasco of piece mealing the DL forever getting on decent old timer to take the heat of of him..

I do not have any faith in mikey to do the right thing If Bates is not around.. He has relied on bringing in over the ill type since he started this whole thing with Traylor or the other dude from KC whose name escapes me for the moment an ex pro bowl DE.

We need to fix the DT via the draft or FA (unlikely a decent guy comes available due to the scarcity of them) once that is fixed the DE we have will be just that much better without having to deal with double teaming. The LB will be Free to do their jobs and the CB and safeties will not have to play run first..

It is all won or lost on the LOS..

dogfish
12-22-2007, 01:04 AM
He has relied on bringing in over the ill type since he started this whole thing with Traylor or the other dude from KC whose name escapes me for the moment an ex pro bowl DE.





neil smith. . . . ;)

Lonestar
12-22-2007, 02:06 AM
Neil smith. . . . ;)

I could see him and his Nose patch just could not come up with his name.. Just a typical mikey move instead of drafting talent and building from the bottom up with cheap rookie contracts he screwed the pooch for years (almost a decade) with lousy drafting thus had to pay above market price for aging DL guys with just a few years left..

Mikey has been "one or two players away" every year since John and TD left from being a Superbowl team..

fcspikeit
12-22-2007, 02:39 AM
I could see him and his Nose patch just could not come up with his name.. Just a typical mikey move instead of drafting talent and building from the bottom up with cheap rookie contracts he screwed the pooch for years (almost a decade) with lousy drafting thus had to pay above market price for aging DL guys with just a few years left..

Mikey has been "one or two players away" every year since John and TD left from being a Superbowl team..


Your right, He brought in Neil Smith, and Alfred Williams. What happened? We won the Superbowl, twice!

I agree that the D-line has been neglected for way to long. However, bringing in Neil Smith and Alfred Williams was a great move by shanahan. The problem was he didn't have any talented young guys that could step up and take over the starting jobs once Smith and Williams retired.

Who of the Browncos compared to Neil Smith? Who of the Browncos Compare to Jason Taylor?

My point is, the Browncos were never any good, So they are an example of D-line neglect. Smith on the other hand is not. If you go out and get one of the best guys on the market at a position of need, That is addressing the problem. Does it solve the problem long term? NO, you still need to plan for the future. The thing is, we only have 1 first round pick. Therefore we have to hit on some of the later picks in order to be successful. If we got Taylor and ended up picking D-line in the later rounds to build for the future I don't see a problem with that.

Besides, we already have moss and Crowder for the future. Why would it be a bad thing to get Taylor for the present?

If we got Taylor and won 2 Superbowl's I for one wouldn't be complaining ;)

dogfish
12-22-2007, 02:54 AM
Your right, He brought in Neil Smith, and Alfred Williams. What happened? We won the Superbowl, twice!

I agree that the D-line has been neglected for way to long. However, bringing in Neil Smith and Alfred Williams was a great move by shanahan. The problem was he didn't have any talented young guys that could step up and take over the starting jobs once Smith and Williams retired.

Who of the Browncos compared to Neil Smith? Who of the Browncos Compare to Jason Taylor?

My point is, the Browncos were never any good, So they are an example of D-line neglect. Smith on the other hand is not. If you go out and get one of the best guys on the market at a position of need, That is addressing the problem. Does it solve the problem long term? NO, you still need to plan for the future. The thing is, we only have 1 first round pick. Therefore we have to hit on some of the later picks in order to be successful. If we got Taylor and ended up picking D-line in the later rounds to build for the future I don't see a problem with that.

Besides, we already have moss and Crowder for the future. Why would it be a bad thing to get Taylor for the present?

If we got Taylor and won 2 Superbowl's I for one wouldn't be complaining ;)


the difference is that we had elway, davis, sharpe, zimmerman, atwater etc when we went out and got neil smith-- we really WERE "one player away", and the financial backlash was more than worth it when we won the big one (though there's no proof that we wouldn't have won those years even without smith). . .

this team, however, didn't just have a really good season only to lose a first-round playoff heartbreaker to a serious underdog-- we're facing long odds to finish .500! IMO, no way this team is even CLOSE to "one player away". . . more like 4 or 5. . .

also, we didn't have to give up a valuable draft pick to get neil smith. . . and if we give up the 1st day pick the fins are inevitably going to want for taylor, we just put off finding those long term solutions yet another year, and are back to square one when taylor retires in a year or two. . . why push back our very necessary rebuilding even further to bring in old guys who might help us win a few games? i hate to even compare us to them, but NO WAY you'd ever see the smart teams like indy or new england ever give up 1st day draft picks to bring in aging stars-- if you're a team that consistently drafts well, the value simply isn't there. . . and while our history in that area has been real spotty, it's obvious that we've gotten our ish together in the draft recently. . . those picks are what GREAT teams are built on, the teams that are good enough to be contenders every year-- they're way, way too valuable to give up for a one or two year rental just so you can improve by a few wins for a season. . . it's an impatient approach that will almost always come back to bite you in the butt in the long run. . .

Stargazer
12-22-2007, 04:25 AM
First, Taylor has not been cut as far as I know. No picks should be sent to Miami in a trade to acquire JT.

Second, Parcells will try to trade Tayor before entertaining the idea of cutting him. He is still a very good player for his age(34). And his cap # isn't out of this world. JT either stays in Miami or traded to another team. He will not be cut.

Third, he's not coming here. He's not the magical player that will send this team to the superbowl. Denver is not 1 player away from greatness. Adding a 34 DE doesn't solve the problems on this team. There are a lot of holes on defense from the interior to the secondary.

Lonestar
12-22-2007, 12:18 PM
First, Taylor has not been cut as far as I know. No picks should be sent to Miami in a trade to acquire JT.

Second, Parcells will try to trade Tayor before entertaining the idea of cutting him. He is still a very good player for his age(34). And his cap # isn't out of this world. JT either stays in Miami or traded to another team. He will not be cut.

Third, he's not coming here. He's not the magical player that will send this team to the superbowl. Denver is not 1 player away from greatness. Adding a 34 DE doesn't solve the problems on this team. There are a lot of holes on defense from the interior to the secondary.

He is scheduled for a base of 7.5 mil this year and here is his history

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playerdetail.aspx?player=2252


Taylor, Jason

Year Team Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value
2007 Dolphins $ 7,000,000 $ 0 $ 802,880 $ 7,502,880 $ 9,622,505
2006 Dolphins $ 2,750,000 $ 0 $ 5,000,000 $ 7,750,000 $ 9,464,625
2005 Dolphins $ 3,000,000 $ 0 $ 1,270,000 $ 4,270,000 $ 7,859,583
2004 Dolphins $ 660,000 $ 8,367,500 $ 0 $ 9,027,500 $ 4,249,583
2003 Dolphins $ 4,500,000 $ 0 $ 1,171,100 $ 5,671,100 $ 7,866,100
2002 Dolphins $ 525,000 $ 3.475 mil $ 1,567,700 $ 5,567,700 $ 4,287,700
2001 Dolphins $ 2,000,000 $ 9. mil $ 1,038,380 $ 4,538,380 $ 4,538,380
2000 Dolphins $ 1,027,000 $ 0 $ 3,700 $ 1,030,700 $ 1,030,700


For an aging vet IMO he is not worth bringing for more than as a FA, as a trade I certainly would not give any first day pick for him.

While a great career he certainly does not have alot left in the tank IMO.. He does know Bates and his system but for the cost in 2008 and the cost for giving away a draft choice as well as long term Bonus cap stuff I just can't justify him for a year or two rental not for what he will expect to get up front..

Yes mikey did bring in some top talent for those S/B years but as someone said we already had great veterans in the club when they needed an body or two to take them over the top..

fcspikeit
12-22-2007, 01:36 PM
the difference is that we had elway, davis, sharpe, zimmerman, atwater etc when we went out and got neil smith-- we really WERE "one player away", and the financial backlash was more than worth it when we won the big one (though there's no proof that we wouldn't have won those years even without smith). . .

this team, however, didn't just have a really good season only to lose a first-round playoff heartbreaker to a serious underdog-- we're facing long odds to finish .500! IMO, no way this team is even CLOSE to "one player away". . . more like 4 or 5. . .

also, we didn't have to give up a valuable draft pick to get neil smith. . . and if we give up the 1st day pick the fins are inevitably going to want for taylor, we just put off finding those long term solutions yet another year, and are back to square one when taylor retires in a year or two. . . why push back our very necessary rebuilding even further to bring in old guys who might help us win a few games? i hate to even compare us to them, but NO WAY you'd ever see the smart teams like indy or new england ever give up 1st day draft picks to bring in aging stars-- if you're a team that consistently drafts well, the value simply isn't there. . . and while our history in that area has been real spotty, it's obvious that we've gotten our ish together in the draft recently. . . those picks are what GREAT teams are built on, the teams that are good enough to be contenders every year-- they're way, way too valuable to give up for a one or two year rental just so you can improve by a few wins for a season. . . it's an impatient approach that will almost always come back to bite you in the butt in the long run. . .

First of all, I never said we were one player out of the big game. would Taylor be an upgrade at one of our positions of need? Yes,

On offense we look pretty good,

IMO we need to get healthy there and then we can see what we have. Nalan might retire? All the young guys from this year are only going to get better next year. I still feel we need at least one 1 starter there.

We could use an upgrade at RB but that isn't going to happen because we are stuck with Henrey.

On defense we need the most help.

We are set at CB's, We don't know what Lynch will do but either way we need to get someone to take his place when he does retire.

IMO we need 2 LB's, But we aren't going to get 2 stud LB's this year. If we got one top LB and one Good LB we would be ok there.

We need the most improvement on the D-Line.

We must get 1 Stud DT.

Can we count on Moss and Crowder to be the improvement we need at DE? Can we count on Thomas to be an impact player for us at DT?

If we figure those guys will start for us next year then we only really need 1 DT who can start for us. End we need depth which can come in the later rounds.

So yes, we are more then one player away but were not as far away as some people make it sound. All we can do is fix one position at a time. Getting Taylor is helping a position out now that we already look pretty good at for the future.

Lonestar
12-22-2007, 01:50 PM
First of all, I never said we were one player out of the big game. would Taylor be an upgrade at one of our positions of need? Yes,

On offense we look pretty good,

IMO we need to get healthy there and then we can see what we have. Nalan might retire? All the young guys from this year are only going to get better next year. I still feel we need at least one 1 starter there.

We could use an upgrade at RB but that isn't going to happen because we are stuck with Henrey.

On defense we need the most help.

We are set at CB's, We don't know what Lynch will do but either way we need to get someone to take his place when he does retire.

IMO we need 2 LB's, But we aren't going to get 2 stud LB's this year. If we got one top LB and one Good LB we would be ok there.

We need the most improvement on the D-Line.

We must get 1 Stud DT.

Can we count on Moss and Crowder to be the improvement we need at DE? Can we count on Thomas to be an impact player for us at DT?

If we figure those guys will start for us next year then we only really need 1 DT who can start for us. End we need depth which can come in the later rounds.

So yes, we are more then one player away but were not as far away as some people make it sound. All we can do is fix one position at a time. Getting Taylor is helping a position out now that we already look pretty good at for the future.


Overall you are pretty much on the mark here But I will restated unless we can P/U a great stud DT either during FA or the draft Taylor I do not see as being much of an upgrade. While a great player they simply Double team him and negate him.

If we could get him for 4-5 pick and get reasonable contract for him then I'm all for it. But paying anymore than that for him is a huge mistake until we fix the other areas DT and dt first.

I just do not see him alone being the answer and if we give him a huge contract or give up a 1-2 choice that screws the pooch for fixing the DT itch.

silkamilkamonico
12-22-2007, 01:57 PM
Overall you are pretty much on the mark here But I will restated unless we can P/U a great stud DT either during FA or the draft Taylor I do not see as being much of an upgrade. While a great player they simply Double team him and negate him.

I agree. Getting a player like Taylor isn't going to make much of an impact because you still have glaring holes along the interior.

Considering we are very young with high profile talent in Moss/Crowder/Dumervil, Taylor is also a "quick fix" at an unneeded positions. Quick fix's are why Shanahan has been unable to actually build something in Denver.

Let the young guys progress for crying out loud.

Just say no to Jason Taylor.

TXBRONC
12-22-2007, 02:18 PM
First of all, I never said we were one player out of the big game. would Taylor be an upgrade at one of our positions of need? Yes,

On offense we look pretty good,

IMO we need to get healthy there and then we can see what we have. Nalan might retire? All the young guys from this year are only going to get better next year. I still feel we need at least one 1 starter there.

We could use an upgrade at RB but that isn't going to happen because we are stuck with Henrey.

On defense we need the most help.

We are set at CB's, We don't know what Lynch will do but either way we need to get someone to take his place when he does retire.

IMO we need 2 LB's, But we aren't going to get 2 stud LB's this year. If we got one top LB and one Good LB we would be ok there.

We need the most improvement on the D-Line.

We must get 1 Stud DT.

Can we count on Moss and Crowder to be the improvement we need at DE? Can we count on Thomas to be an impact player for us at DT?

If we figure those guys will start for us next year then we only really need 1 DT who can start for us. End we need depth which can come in the later rounds.

So yes, we are more then one player away but were not as far away as some people make it sound. All we can do is fix one position at a time. Getting Taylor is helping a position out now that we already look pretty good at for the future.

Spikeit I do respect what you're saying but I just don't see this being a good move. You asked the questions of "Can we count on Moss, Crowder, and Thomas to be impact players?" We'll never know if they can be impact players unless they get a chance to play a majority of the snaps and that wouldn't happen if we traded for Taylor. That being said I'm of the opinion that what we have seen from Crowder and Thomas are signs that they can be all that.

Taylor could make a solid contribution barring injury or a dip in his ability. However, would it be enough in the short run to get Denver to the Super Bowl? I'm not convinced it would.

DenBronx
12-22-2007, 02:35 PM
I agree. Getting a player like Taylor isn't going to make much of an impact because you still have glaring holes along the interior.

Considering we are very young with high profile talent in Moss/Crowder/Dumervil, Taylor is also a "quick fix" at an unneeded positions. Quick fix's are why Shanahan has been unable to actually build something in Denver.

Let the young guys progress for crying out loud.

Just say no to Jason Taylor.

just say...

NO!!!

fcspikeit
12-22-2007, 03:01 PM
Spikeit I do respect what you're saying but I just don't see this being a good move. You asked the questions of "Can we count on Moss, Crowder, and Thomas to be impact players?" We'll never know if they can be impact players unless they get a chance to play a majority of the snaps and that wouldn't happen if we traded for Taylor. That being said I'm of the opinion that what we have seen from Crowder and Thomas are signs that they can be all that.

Taylor could make a solid contribution barring injury or a dip in his ability. However, would it be enough in the short run to get Denver to the Super Bowl? I'm not convinced it would.

I'm not convinced getting Taylor would put us in the Superbowl next year either. But I believe it would be a step in the right direction.

If Shanahan does nothing on the D-line but draft one DT will that put us in the superbowl next year? Maybe our young guys will become the play makers we have seen flashes of? I truly hope so! But I wouldn't bank on it for next year. Even if we got Taylor we would still have our young guys for the future. I'm not saying trade Moss or Crowder for Taylor. Moss and Crowder were not even starters this year. If they don't improve they will not even be our starters next year. So who is going to start for us? Who is Taylor going to take playing time from?

I want us to take DT with our first pick, because that is our biggest need right now. Getting Taylor does not fix that. If we can keep our first pick and draft DT and address our LB problems in FA and the later rounds of the draft, as well get a S, and some OT/OG's for the future in our later rounds we can still get Taylor and he would help this team win.

No matter who or what position Shanahan drafts he can't fix every problem we have with the 1st pick. Even if we don't get Taylor we are going to have to hope we get lucky with some of our later round picks. If we don't get A guy like Taylor we will have to hope the young guys we have now can step it up next year. If we got Taylor we wouldn't need to worry about DE again.

I doubt we will get Taylor because we will have Ekuban back. My guess would be that Shanahan will do very little at DE in the off season. I am just saying if we got Taylor he walks in the building and is imideatly the best DE we have on the roster. Maybe we could trade Ekuban for a Good young S or LB? That would be helping 2 positions at once. Then all we would really need to focus on in the draft and FA is a stud DT and LB.

In your opinion, how many more years should we just look to the future 2 or 3 years down the road? Even if we draft the best DT on the board, Will he be a starter next year? Will we still have washed up hasbeens or never was' playing TD for us while we wait for the young guys? Then what, in 3 years we can't sign all the young guys we have now so we lose half of them to FA and start all over?

For the most part you can really only look about 3 years in the future, because as players get better they want more money and we just can't sign them all. How many teams always get the top picks yet they still aren't very good? It is as if they are always looking to the future and the future never comes because they end up losing the good players they had to free agency because they don't have the cap space or the player is just tired of losing and wants to win.

We have to build to win in the future and that includes next year.

Lonestar
12-22-2007, 03:19 PM
I'm not convinced getting Taylor would put us in the Superbowl next year either. But I believe it would be a step in the right direction.

If Shanahan does nothing on the D-line but draft one DT will that put us in the superbowl next year? Maybe our young guys will become the play makers we have seen flashes of? I truly hope so! But I wouldn't bank on it for next year. Even if we got Taylor we would still have our young guys for the future. I'm not saying trade Moss or Crowder for Taylor. Moss and Crowder were not even starters this year. If they don't improve they will not even be our starters next year. So who is going to start for us? Who is Taylor going to take playing time from?

I want us to take DT with our first pick, because that is our biggest need right now. Getting Taylor does not fix that. If we can keep our first pick and draft DT and address our LB problems in FA and the later rounds of the draft, as well get a S, and some OT/OG's for the future in our later rounds we can still get Taylor and he would help this team win.

No matter who or what position Shanahan drafts he can't fix every problem we have with the 1st pick. Even if we don't get Taylor we are going to have to hope we get lucky with some of our later round picks. If we don't get A guy like Taylor we will have to hope the young guys we have now can step it up next year. If we got Taylor we wouldn't need to worry about DE again.

I doubt we will get Taylor because we will have Ekuban back. My guess would be that Shanahan will do very little at DE in the off season. I am just saying if we got Taylor he walks in the building and is imideatly the best DE we have on the roster. Maybe we could trade Ekuban for a Good young S or LB? That would be helping 2 positions at once. Then all we would really need to focus on in the draft and FA is a stud DT and LB.

In your opinion, how many more years should we just look to the future 2 or 3 years down the road? Even if we draft the best DT on the board, Will he be a starter next year? Will we still have washed up hasbeens or never was' playing TD for us while we wait for the young guys? Then what, in 3 years we can't sign all the young guys we have now so we lose half of them to FA and start all over?

For the most part you can really only look about 3 years in the future, because as players get better they want more money and we just can't sign them all. How many teams always get the top picks yet they still aren't very good? It is as if they are always looking to the future and the future never comes because they end up losing the good players they had to free agency because they don't have the cap space or the player is just tired of losing and wants to win.

We have to build to win in the future and that includes next year.


really good response.. fair and balanced.

The only thing I remotely disagree with you about is while he could come and and start he would be taking time from the newbies. I for one would rather place my eggs in the rookies baskets for right now..

We all saw that with Thomas and Crowder getting lots of playing time that means they will be that much better after the time on the field the film of those games and the off season to be coached as well as weight room time.

The growth potential here is not quite unlimited but nearly so . Moss crowder Thomas Dumervil could be the base of this defense for a decade or more IF mikey continues to draft wisely here..

We all saw the progress Dumervil made between season one and two I suspect we will see that kind of improvement for the other three.. While they maybe youngsters they will have some vets around them giving them guidance.

TXBRONC
12-22-2007, 06:31 PM
I'm not convinced getting Taylor would put us in the Superbowl next year either. But I believe it would be a step in the right direction.

I knew you and I shared common ground here.


If Shanahan does nothing on the D-line but draft one DT will that put us in the Superbowl next year? Maybe our young guys will become the play makers we have seen flashes of? I truly hope so! But I wouldn't bank on it for next year. Even if we got Taylor we would still have our young guys for the future. I'm not saying trade Moss or Crowder for Taylor. Moss and Crowder were not even starters this year. If they don't improve they will not even be our starters next year. So who is going to start for us? Who is Taylor going to take playing time from?

I realize we're not going to trade Crowder, and Moss away. If we signed Taylor you don't think he would take playing time away from Moss and Crowder? Considering the kind of contract it would more than likely take to get him I don't see how it wouldn't. You're saying if they don't show improvement they wont be starters which in and of it's self is right on the money, but if we get Taylor they start anyway which means they're pushed back on the depth chart. That being said I think we are seeing enough from Crowder to warrant him challenging for a starting position.


I want us to take DT with our first pick, because that is our biggest need right now. Getting Taylor does not fix that. If we can keep our first pick and draft DT and address our LB problems in FA and the later rounds of the draft, as well get a S, and some OT/OG's for the future in our later rounds we can still get Taylor and he would help this team win.

I agree we need to draft a defensive tackle. I'm hoping it will be Okam but it way to hard to predict what Shanahan will do. Again very true Taylor wont our problem at defensive tackle. Keep in mind we don't have our full compliment of draft picks and any deal that we did with Dolphins to get Taylor is more than likely going to include picks. I doubt we could meet but one or two of other areas in the draft (LB, OT/OG, and S) but certainly not all three.


No matter who or what position Shanahan drafts he can't fix every problem we have with the 1st pick. Even if we don't get Taylor we are going to have to hope we get lucky with some of our later round picks. If we don't get A guy like Taylor we will have to hope the young guys we have now can step it up next year. If we got Taylor we wouldn't need to worry about DE again.

Yes unlike basketball where one player can turn a franchise around it doesn't work that way in football, one player wont fix every problem. Now here is where you and I diverge. Quite possibly for a year or two maybe even three we wouldn't have to worry about defensive end. However, Taylor is going be 34 years old next season, getting him means we're banking on him putting up similar numbers to what he did this year. I don't think the law of averages work in our favor of that happening with a 34 year old defensive end.


I doubt we will get Taylor because we will have Ekuban back. My guess would be that Shanahan will do very little at DE in the off season. I am just saying if we got Taylor he walks in the building and is immediately the best DE we have on the roster. Maybe we could trade Ekuban for a Good young S or LB? That would be helping 2 positions at once. Then all we would really need to focus on in the draft and FA is a stud DT and LB.

I wouldn't bet against you on both counts. We probably wont go after Taylor and Shanahan will more than likely not not add much at defensive in the off season. That is however assuming Ekuban comes back. Ekuban is about the same age as Taylor I don't think we would get good young safety or linebacker in trade for him. I like Ekuban but he's journeyman defensive end coming off a serious injury so I can see being able get better talent than what he is worth.


In your opinion, how many more years should we just look to the future 2 or 3years down the road? Even if we draft the best DT on the board, Will he be a starter next year? Will we still have washed up has beens or never was' playing TD for us while we wait for the young guys? Then what, in 3 years we can't sign all the young guys we have now so we lose half of them to FA and start all over?

Exactly you can't look any further than about three years down the road. That being said we wont know what we have in guys like Moss and Crowder if they have to play behind Taylor. Let's say Taylor is here and makes three years and leaves now we find out Crowder and Moss are not going to cut it that would actually put us even further behind.


For the most part you can really only look about 3 years in the future, because as players get better they want more money and we just can't sign them all. How many teams always get the top picks yet they still aren't very good? It is as if they are always looking to the future and the future never comes because they end up losing the good players they had to free agency because they don't have the cap space or the player is just tired of losing and wants to win.

Like most everything here we agree. It's fairly well known fact that you can't look more than about three years into future, that in my opinion is why it's better not go after Taylor we need find out what our young players can do.


We have to build to win in the future and that includes next year.

Absolutely, we have to build to win in the future which includes next season, and I think if we be healthier next season and with some new pieces we can be a playoff caliber team.

Retired_Member_001
12-22-2007, 06:36 PM
Why would we want an aging Jason Taylor when we have the next Jason Taylor in Jarvis Moss?

Giving up anymore than a 4th round pick for Jason Taylor would be a huge mistake. As people have said before, DT is the problem on the defensive line, not DE.

fcspikeit
12-22-2007, 06:44 PM
really good response.. fair and balanced.

The only thing I remotely disagree with you about is while he could come and and start he would be taking time from the newbies. I for one would rather place my eggs in the rookies baskets for right now..


At the sake of losing more games while watching our D-line get throne on the back time and time again?

To me its all about winning. Who is going to give us the best chance to win. If we got 2 good years out of Taylor I don't see why Moss/Crawder couldn't come in after that and be ready to start every down.

If their play improves to the point they are better then they should start. To me it really isn't about who should be able to start, If we had Taylor then it would be Taylor's job. The question is, at what cost should we go to get Taylor? Beings we have depth at the DE position right now I don't think we should sell the farm to get him.

If Shanahan can trade off Ekuban for something of need LB, S, O-line then I feel it would free us up to make a run at Taylor. I don't see much point in keeping Ekuban, and still going after Taylor.

Just wondering, If we keep Ekuban and don't get Taylor do you feel we should start Moss and Crowder over him for the experience even if starting Ekuban gives us the better chance to win?

TXBRONC
12-22-2007, 08:54 PM
Why would we want an aging Jason Taylor when we have the next Jason Taylor in Jarvis Moss?

Giving up anymore than a 4th round pick for Jason Taylor would be a huge mistake. As people have said before, DT is the problem on the defensive line, not DE.

We don't have a the full compliment of draft picks, so I don't think it would be a good idea to give one for Taylor.

fcspikeit
12-22-2007, 10:02 PM
I realize we're not going to trade Crowder, and Moss away. If we signed Taylor you don't think he would take playing time away from Moss and Crowder? Considering the kind of contract it would more than likely take to get him I don't see how it wouldn't. You're saying if they don't show improvement they wont be starters which in and of it's self is right on the money, but if we get Taylor they start anyway which means they're pushed back on the depth chart. That being said I think we are seeing enough from Crowder to warrant him challenging for a starting position.

Why do we feel Crowder will be good enough next year to compete for a starting job? Is it because he has 2 games left to play or just because we feel he will improve over the off season and have another camp to learn to play at the NFL level? my point is, Crowder and Moss will improve from year to year whether they are starting or not. Its not like they are back up QB's. They will get to play even if we got Taylor. Granted not as much as they will if they are starting but enough that we will be able to see where they are at and if they are ready to play 70% of the downs.

Also, you make it sound like there is only one open spot at DE. I have seen nothing from Elvis to believe he should be an every down DE. He is to small to be affective against the run. He gets taken out by FB's and TE's. He gets all the double teams on passing downs but how many times to they have to double him on running downs?




I agree we need to draft a defensive tackle. I'm hoping it will be Okam but it way to hard to predict what Shanahan will do. Again very true Taylor wont our problem at defensive tackle. Keep in mind we don't have our full compliment of draft picks and any deal that we did with Dolphins to get Taylor is more than likely going to include picks. I doubt we could meet but one or two of other areas in the draft (LB, OT/OG, and S) but certainly not all three.

How many picks to we have? I know we don't have a 3rd but don't we have 2 6's and 2 7's? If you have a ling to our who has what picks I would appreciate it.

Anyhoo, I hope we don't just look to the draft to feel the holes we have at ever position. We still have FA we can get help at some of those positions there.




Yes unlike basketball where one player can turn a franchise around it doesn't work that way in football, one player wont fix every problem. Now here is where you and I diverge. Quite possibly for a year or two maybe even three we wouldn't have to worry about defensive end. However, Taylor is going be 34 years old next season, getting him means we're banking on him putting up similar numbers to what he did this year. I don't think the law of averages work in our favor of that happening with a 34 year old defensive end.

Your right, Taylor's play will most probably drop off some. But he isn't going to go from DMVP to backup in 2 years. If we got 3 years of starting play out of him I would be happy. We still have Moss and Crowder to take over when he can't play every down anymore. Both of which will by then be 2 or 3 years better then they are right now.



I wouldn't bet against you on both counts. We probably wont go after Taylor and Shanahan will more than likely not not add much at defensive in the off season. That is however assuming Ekuban comes back. Ekuban is about the same age as Taylor I don't think we would get good young safety or linebacker in trade for him. I like Ekuban but he's journeyman defensive end coming off a serious injury so I can see being able get better talent than what he is worth.


Ekuban is 31, I don't think we could get a Lance Briggs for him but I would bet the farm we could get a lot better then Webster or Gold. IMO, both our Special team players at best. We will never have 3 Urlacher's playing LB for us. If we can improve both outside positions this off season that will have to be enough. + if we improve our D-line it will help out our LB's more then anything else.



Exactly you can't look any further than about three years down the road. That being said we wont know what we have in guys like Moss and Crowder if they have to play behind Taylor. Let's say Taylor is here and makes three years and leaves now we find out Crowder and Moss are not going to cut it that would actually put us even further behind.

Again, they are not back up QB's they will get to play enough to see if they are starter material or not.




Like most everything here we agree. It's fairly well known fact that you can't look more than about three years into future, that in my opinion is why it's better not go after Taylor we need find out what our young players can do.

If we approached every position like this where would that take us? You can't win with all young guys. You need to work them in and give them experience while they learn the game at the NFL level. Keep in mind some rookies stand out their first year and you can see right away what you have. I didn't see that from either Moss or Crowder. We have the worst D-line in the NFL this year and they weren't even the starters :) They have promise but IMO they are not there yet




Absolutely, we have to build to win in the future which includes next season, and I think if we be healthier next season and with some new pieces we can be a playoff caliber team.


Being healthy next year will be huge! It is hard to know who we have in guys like Moss just because he got hurt so early on. The same goes for our O-line. Who knows, maybe Harris will come up big for us next year? We had a lot of young guys on our O-line this year. They should be better next year as well. If everything goes as it could we could be in the playoffs next year with very little help. :salute:

broncosfanscott
12-22-2007, 11:48 PM
really good response.. fair and balanced.

The only thing I remotely disagree with you about is while he could come and and start he would be taking time from the newbies. I for one would rather place my eggs in the rookies baskets for right now..

We all saw that with Thomas and Crowder getting lots of playing time that means they will be that much better after the time on the field the film of those games and the off season to be coached as well as weight room time.

The growth potential here is not quite unlimited but nearly so . Moss crowder Thomas Dumervil could be the base of this defense for a decade or more IF mikey continues to draft wisely here..

We all saw the progress Dumervil made between season one and two I suspect we will see that kind of improvement for the other three.. While they maybe youngsters they will have some vets around them giving them guidance.


My sentiments exactly. We have some nice young talent on this team and I would like to keep all of them together. We have to give the young guys a chance to prove what they can do and I think they will when giving the playing time.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-23-2007, 12:51 AM
We'd be stupid to not want Taylor, BUT we shouldn't mortgage the future for him. Now if the fins would consider Foxxy and Gold w/ a mid round pick, I'd listen. Just no draft pix.

Simple Jaded
12-23-2007, 01:11 AM
Why would we want an aging Jason Taylor when we have the next Jason Taylor in Jarvis Moss?

Giving up anymore than a 4th round pick for Jason Taylor would be a huge mistake. As people have said before, DT is the problem on the defensive line, not DE.


There is still no pass rush either!

Not fixing the pass rush because the DT's suck is like saying there is no sense in fixing your brakes because your tires are bald!

Fix 'em both......

Tned
12-23-2007, 01:16 AM
There is still no pass rush either!

Not fixing the pass rush because the DT's suck is like saying there is no sense in fixing your brakes because your tires are bald!

Fix 'em both......

And, until we get a pass rush, no matter how good our corners are, our secondary is going to struggle. It has been proven time and time again, that DBs cannot consistantly cover WRs when the QB has all the time he wants to wait for his receivers to get open.

Simple Jaded
12-23-2007, 01:24 AM
And, until we get a pass rush, no matter how good our corners are, our secondary is going to struggle. It has been proven time and time again, that DBs cannot consistantly cover WRs when the QB has all the time he wants to wait for his receivers to get open.


Exactly! The pass rush is still a problem and Taylor, given the right circumstances, should at least be considered......

fcspikeit
12-23-2007, 01:38 AM
Exactly! The pass rush is still a problem and Taylor, given the right circumstances, should at least be considered......

I couldn't agree more!

Of course he would not be the end of all our D-line problems, but he would be a huge up grade from what we had this year. If we can justify paying Walker 7 million dollars for the hope he will be able to play an entire season for us we can surly justify getting Taylor if we can work something out where we don't have to sell the farm to get him.

dogfish
12-23-2007, 05:00 AM
Exactly! The pass rush is still a problem and Taylor, given the right circumstances, should at least be considered......

damn right!!



as long as those circumstances add up to a 5th round pick or less, i'm all for it. . . . think the guppies will give 'im up for that . . . . ?

Joel
12-23-2007, 09:48 AM
The jury's still out on whether Ebenezer Ekuban will ever play another down, but I agree we don't need ends (in fact, I thought we needed DTs rather than DEs last year, and it's entirely possible I was right.... ;)) Patrick Kerney's 13.5 sacks look pretty good, but Dumervils 11 don't look bad either, nor do rookie Tim Crowders 4, given the fact that he missed the start of the season and has been backing up Engleburger since. And while I've never been as psyched about Moss as everyone else (playing a great Bowl game against a college team is irrelevant to me) he does look like he has some potential in Bates' scheme, and I don't think we should write off a guy we traded up to make our top pick. Certainly not before we have a chance to see him on the field and find out if he's the next Night Train Lane or the next Courtney Brown (can you believe that guy was a #1 overall pick?) So that's, what, four or five quality DEs, most of whom are considerably younger than 34? How many are we gonna play at once...?

And as Jr and top have already noted, if we don't do SOMETHING about the lack of an anchor in the middle it won't matter whom our ends are because there'll be plenty of people available to block them. Not to mention the fact that in Bates' scheme the vast majority of the run stopping is done by the tackles; the ends pass rush and even the LBs main job on runs is to get outside contain and force backs to the DTs. Until we have someone (preferably two someones to rotate... ) like Gilbert Brown, or like Tank Johnson and Haynesworth (minus the character issues) our D will continue to be in trouble, and having the fastest ends and the best secondary won't mean jack while teams are busting six yard runs up the gut on every down.

My top priority in last years off season was a couple NTs; what's changed...?

broncofanatic1987
12-23-2007, 10:17 AM
There is still no pass rush either!

Not fixing the pass rush because the DT's suck is like saying there is no sense in fixing your brakes because your tires are bald!

Fix 'em both......

There's no pass rush because there isn't a stud or two in the middle eating up blockers. Fix the problem at DT and you most likely fix the problem with the pass rush. Crowder should be better next year. Moss should be healthy and hopefully better next year as well. We don't need to take an unnecessary risk on an old Jason Taylor. It would make more sense for us to try to get Paul Soliai from the Dolphins than Jason Taylor. If the Dolphins would be willing to take Foxy, Gold and a 6th in exchange for Taylor and Soliai(a 6'4" 344 lb DT that we probably should have drafted in the 7th instead of making a costly trade in order to pick Thomas in the 4th), that would possibly be something worth doing. Getting Taylor by himself for a high draft pick isn't something worth doing. I'd be happier if the Broncos could get Soliai by himself for a 6th or a 7th round pick.

Generally I don't really care about the money, but in this case we can't ignore the fact that Taylor would take up over $7 million in cap space which is about the same as Javon Walker will take up. It's far more important to keep Walker than get Taylor. Walker is still in the prime of his career and should be 100% by next year. Taylor is on the downhill side of his career and would hinder the team's ability to go after more important needs. Taylor is the guy you get when you're one piece away from being a Super Bowl contender. The Broncos are more than one piece away and need to keep as many options available as possible. Getting Taylor would take away a lot of their options.

Lonestar
12-23-2007, 01:50 PM
The jury's still out on whether Ebenezer Ekuban will ever play another down, but I agree we don't need ends (in fact, I thought we needed DTs rather than DEs last year, and it's entirely possible I was right.... ;)) Patrick Kerney's 13.5 sacks look pretty good, but Dumervils 11 don't look bad either, nor do rookie Tim Crowders 4, given the fact that he missed the start of the season and has been backing up Engleburger since. And while I've never been as psyched about Moss as everyone else (playing a great Bowl game against a college team is irrelevant to me) he does look like he has some potential in Bates' scheme, and I don't think we should write off a guy we traded up to make our top pick. Certainly not before we have a chance to see him on the field and find out if he's the next Night Train Lane or the next Courtney Brown (can you believe that guy was a #1 overall pick?) So that's, what, four or five quality DEs, most of whom are considerably younger than 34? How many are we gonna play at once...?

And as Jr and top have already noted, if we don't do SOMETHING about the lack of an anchor in the middle it won't matter whom our ends are because there'll be plenty of people available to block them. Not to mention the fact that in Bates' scheme the vast majority of the run stopping is done by the tackles; the ends pass rush and even the LBs main job on runs is to get outside contain and force backs to the DTs. Until we have someone (preferably two someones to rotate... ) like Gilbert Brown, or like Tank Johnson and Haynesworth (minus the character issues) our D will continue to be in trouble, and having the fastest ends and the best secondary won't mean jack while teams are busting six yard runs up the gut on every down.

My top priority in last years off season was a couple NTs; what's changed...?


But, But, But De's are sexy because sacks are sexy.. They are quantifiable run stuffing is not.. Until you can stop the run with out putting 8 in the box and having 2 more Cb's play run first thus allowing WR to double move and cost you games. But NO lets get those sacks so we can feel good about something..

We have needed a quality DT in the draft since mikey came to town. But he is in love with fast LB's so that has been the priority, 7 of them in the first and second round under mikeys regime.

Bronco9798
12-23-2007, 01:53 PM
Another Bates disaster waiting to happen if we sign Taylor. We don't need to keep bringing re-treads into Denver that have their best years behind them. Someone needs to get a clue on how to sign FA's for the D line. You would think somebody would see the past disasters and go a new route. Everybody that Bates wanted as A DT is practically gone, FA wise. Get a clue Jim or get the hell out of Denver with your antiquated gap scheme.

BroncoJoe
12-23-2007, 01:55 PM
I think Bates is gone. Just a feeling.

I wouldn't mind Taylor here. He's got a couple more years in him (actually played pretty well this year on that sorry excuse of a team). Plus, it would allow us to develop the younger guys once he's gone.

Bring in Taylor, show Bates the door.

Bronco9798
12-23-2007, 02:01 PM
I think Bates is gone. Just a feeling.

I wouldn't mind Taylor here. He's got a couple more years in him (actually played pretty well this year on that sorry excuse of a team). Plus, it would allow us to develop the younger guys once he's gone.

Bring in Taylor, show Bates the door.

Joe, we don't need Jason Taylor in Denver. Who's after that Zach Thomas and Keith Traylor. Just like the Browns we had,,disaster.

Bronco9798
12-23-2007, 02:02 PM
damn right!!



as long as those circumstances add up to a 5th round pick or less, i'm all for it. . . . think the guppies will give 'im up for that . . . . ?

Not a chance. They will hold him hostage until some stupid front office person comes around and pays the ransom.

BroncoJoe
12-23-2007, 02:05 PM
Joe, we don't need Jason Taylor in Denver. Who's after that Zach Thomas and Keith Traylor. Just like the Browns we had,,disaster.

I agree to a degree. I don't want him here necessarily, but wouldn't mind it if he was.d

How's that for wishy-washy?

Bronco9798
12-23-2007, 02:08 PM
I agree to a degree. I don't want him here necessarily, but wouldn't mind it if he was.d

How's that for wishy-washy?

Pretty good. We still need to see how Moss comes along after the injury and see how Doom holds up. We need a veteran at DE, but a bit younger that has some years left. We get Taylor then 2 years later we're looking again if Moss turns out to be a bust.

turftoad
12-23-2007, 02:23 PM
We don't Taylor. Let the young guys come along. We didn't draft Moss, Crowder in the first and second rounds to let sit on the bench. They'l be in thier second years and should be able to produce along with Dum and whomever else we decide to keep.
We do however, need DT help bad. Our offense is going to be fine. We need to beef up our "D". We need help at DT, S and LB in the worst way.
We can't keep giving up big chunks of yards on the ground every other play. We need to start getting some 3 and outs on the "D" side of the ball.

claymore
12-23-2007, 02:24 PM
We don't Taylor. Let the young guys come along. We didn't draft Moss, Crowder in the first and second rounds to let sit on the bench. They'l be in thier second years and should be able to produce along with Dum and whomever else we decide to keep.
We do however, need DT help bad. Our offense is going to be fine. We need to beef up our "D". We need help at DT, S and LB in the worst way.
We can't keep giving up big chunchs of yards on the ground every other play. We need to start getting some 3 and outs on the "D" side of the ball.
I hope Moss is working on uper body strength or something. Man the injury really set him back.

Bronco9798
12-23-2007, 02:28 PM
We don't Taylor. Let the young guys come along. We didn't draft Moss, Crowder in the first and second rounds to let sit on the bench. They'l be in thier second years and should be able to produce along with Dum and whomever else we decide to keep.
We do however, need DT help bad. Our offense is going to be fine. We need to beef up our "D". We need help at DT, S and LB in the worst way.
We can't keep giving up big chunks of yards on the ground every other play. We need to start getting some 3 and outs on the "D" side of the ball.

We haven't had a decent D line in years. Every year we talk about "getting a pass rush" next year. Been saying it for years. Someone has to wake up and realize you can't consistently win without a pass rush in the NFL. I pray to god we can do it right next year. I'm tired of watching our horrible Dline year in and year out. It gets frustrating.

fcspikeit
12-23-2007, 03:48 PM
But, But, But De's are sexy because sacks are sexy.. They are quantifiable run stuffing is not.. Until you can stop the run with out putting 8 in the box and having 2 more Cb's play run first thus allowing WR to double move and cost you games. But NO lets get those sacks so we can feel good about something..

We have needed a quality DT in the draft since mikey came to town. But he is in love with fast LB's so that has been the priority, 7 of them in the first and second round under mikeys regime.


Jr,,

You ,make it sound like Kerney's sack's mean nothing. How many of those sacks got his defense off the field on 3rd down? How many times has he hurried the QB in to throwing an errand pass on 3rd down?

How many tackles does he have on the RB? How many time's has he stopped the runner short of the first down?

My point is, Their defensive line is way better then ours and he is the best guy they have on the line. What does that tell us?

He would have helped this team out! Probably way more then we ever could imagine. How many games did we win because of Elvis pressuring the QB? Imagine having Kerney at the other end. Simply put, we would have won more games if we would have got Kerney!

Joel
12-23-2007, 03:51 PM
Pretty good. We still need to see how Moss comes along after the injury and see how Doom holds up. We need a veteran at DE, but a bit younger that has some years left. We get Taylor then 2 years later we're looking again if Moss turns out to be a bust.
I'm hoping Ekuban can come back as our veteran DE (we had another one in Lang but cut him, which tells us something about where our priorities are; experience is nothing without performance). But we aren't 29th in rushing D because of Dumervils 11 sacks, and if our rushing D was as good as our 6th ranked passing D we'd already have clinched a playoff spot.

Lonestar
12-23-2007, 03:58 PM
Jr,,

You ,make it sound like Kerney's sack's mean nothing. How many of those sacks got his defense off the field on 3rd down? How many times has he hurried the QB in to throwing an errand pass on 3rd down?

How many tackles does he have on the RB? How many time's has he stopped the runner short of the first down?

My point is, Their defensive line is way better then ours and he is the best guy they have on the line. What does that tell us?

He would have helped this team out! Probably way more then we ever could imagine. How many games did we win because of Elvis pressuring the QB? Imagine having Kerney at the other end. Simply put, we would have won more games if we would have got Kerney!


Hell fire everyones DL and defense is better than ours..

I'm not discounting sacks but the defense does not live on sacks alone and that is how the majority of folks on the forum believe that is how you define D. It is a good portion but it is not the only thing..

I do not think that Kerney would have done that much more for this defense unless he was played at DT.. We all agree that without the middle being fixed, the DE LB CB and safeties are covering up that pile of crap first instead of doing their jobs...

Joel
12-23-2007, 04:02 PM
Jr,,

You ,make it sound like Kerney's sack's mean nothing. How many of those sacks got his defense off the field on 3rd down? How many times has he hurried the QB in to throwing an errand pass on 3rd down?
Far be it from me to speak for Jr, but off hand I'd say Kerneys sacks have gotten his D off the field no more than 14 times. More likely a lot less than that, since you can bet a lot of them didn't come on third down.


How many tackles does he have on the RB? How many time's has he stopped the runner short of the first down?
That's not really a valid comparison because in Bates' system that's the DTs job almost exclusively; DEs rush the QB and LBs rush the QB and force back back inside for DTs to tackle. All of which only underscores our deficiencies at DT; they have about 75% of the run stopping responsibilities, so if they don't get it done... well, we'll finish in the bottom five in rushing D.

However, if you REALLY want to go there, Ebenezer Ekuban chased Tomlinson the width of the field and tackled him for a loss last year and I STILL had to endure demands for lots of DEs despite the fact the only DT we had worthy of the name was Gerard Warren. I get the feeling sometimes no matter how good our ends are people will want more and better; the truth is no matter how good they are it won't matter until we have some quality NTs to anchor the line in the middle. If we were getting beat by QBs snapping the ball and just running out the clock because no one can get to them I might see your point, but we're getting beat up the gut, and all the DEs in the world won't help us there. On the other hand, if we get a couple quality NTs to rotate in the middle it will not only stop the run and force the pass, but also demand double teams and/or collapse the pocket on those passes, so QBs can't just step up and avoid a DE coming off the corner.


My point is, Their defensive line is way better then ours and he is the best guy they have on the line. What does that tell us?
It tells us we had decent ends last year, went out and bet the farm on DEs in last years draft, and lots of other teams still have better lines; maybe it's time to look at something OTHER than DE. That's probably my pet peeve in these debates; I can get behind all the people who say, "we need DL" right up until they reveal what they really mean is "we need DEs". Defensive ends are a vital part of a defensive line, but they're only half the story.


He would have helped this team out! Probably way more then we ever could imagine. How many games did we win because of Elvis pressuring the QB? Imagine having Kerney at the other end. Simply put, we would have won more games if we would have got Kerney!
How many games did we LOSE because we couldn't stop the run without putting 8 or 9 guys in the box (which just means a three step drop and throw it to any of the many open receivers)? How many times have we given up >100 rushing yards this year? How much does Kerney change that?

Lonestar
12-23-2007, 04:08 PM
Far be it from me to speak for Jr, but off hand I'd say Kerneys sacks have gotten his D off the field no more than 14 times. More likely a lot less than that, since you can bet a lot of them didn't come on third down.


That's not really a valid comparison because in Bates' system that's the DTs job almost exclusively; DEs rush the QB and LBs rush the QB and force back back inside for DTs to tackle. All of which only underscores our deficiencies at DT; they have about 75% of the run stopping responsibilities, so if they don't get it done... well, we'll finish in the bottom five in rushing D.

However, if you REALLY want to go there, Ebenezer Ekuban chased Tomlinson the width of the field and tackled him for a loss last year and I STILL had to endure demands for lots of DEs despite the fact the only DT we had worthy of the name was Gerard Warren. I get the feeling sometimes no matter how good our ends are people will want more and better; the truth is no matter how good they are it won't matter until we have some quality NTs to anchor the line in the middle. If we were getting beat by QBs snapping the ball and just running out the clock because no one can get to them I might see your point, but we're getting beat up the gut, and all the DEs in the world won't help us there. On the other hand, if we get a couple quality NTs to rotate in the middle it will not only stop the run and force the pass, but also demand double teams and/or collapse the pocket on those passes, so QBs can't just step up and avoid a DE coming off the corner.


It tells us we had decent ends last year, went out and bet the farm on DEs in last years draft, and lots of other teams still have better lines; maybe it's time to look at something OTHER than DE. That's probably my pet peeve in these debates; I can get behind all the people who say, "we need DL" right up until they reveal what they really mean is "we need DEs". Defensive ends are a vital part of a defensive line, but they're only half the story.


How many games did we LOSE because we couldn't stop the run without putting 8 or 9 guys in the box (which just means a three step drop and throw it to any of the many open receivers)? How many times have we given up >100 rushing yards this year? How much does Kerney change that?

Thanks you did a masterful job talking for me.:salute:

TXBRONC
12-23-2007, 04:16 PM
I hope Moss is working on uper body strength or something. Man the injury really set him back.

I don't know how much he can do until that torn muscle is healed.

Bronco9798
12-23-2007, 04:35 PM
Moss is still a project at work. He has potential, but we need some DE's that can stop the run, not just pass rush specialists.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-23-2007, 05:18 PM
Moss is still a project at work. He has potential, but we need some DE's that can stop the run, not just pass rush specialists.

Sup 9798, glad to see ya here. I've been looking all over cyberspace for that dam cat. Glad I finally found it.

I'd rather take Justin Smith from Cincy in FA. He'll be cheaper and nothing will need to be traded to acquire his services.

Lonestar
12-23-2007, 05:24 PM
Sup 9798, glad to see ya here. I've been looking all over cyberspace for that dam cat. Glad I finally found it.

I'd rather take Justin Smith from Cincy in FA. He'll be cheaper and nothing will need to be traded to acquire his services.

:welcome: to the blue zone we are always looking for informed posters:salute:

Bronco9798
12-23-2007, 05:24 PM
Sup 9798, glad to see ya here. I've been looking all over cyberspace for that dam cat. Glad I finally found it.

I'd rather take Justin Smith from Cincy in FA. He'll be cheaper and nothing will need to be traded to acquire his services.

Dude whats up. Most of us are moving this way. It's good over here. Join us. I'm going to create some of our old pic threads (tailgate, etc,) in the lounge tonight.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-23-2007, 05:27 PM
Dude whats up. Most of us are moving this way. It's good over here. Join us. I'm going to create some of our old pic threads (tailgate, etc,) in the lounge tonight.

I've been doing that on the Nation site, but it's just not the same. Either way I go, I'm feeling kinda dirty.

Bronco9798
12-23-2007, 05:29 PM
I've been doing that on the Nation site, but it's just not the same. Either way I go, I'm feeling kinda dirty.

It took me about 20 posts to get clean. Its cool over here. I think most everybody will find their way over here. 10 or so came today, including me. Nation is too cartoonish and elementary for me.

fcspikeit
12-23-2007, 06:10 PM
Far be it from me to speak for Jr, but off hand I'd say Kerneys sacks have gotten his D off the field no more than 14 times. More likely a lot less than that, since you can bet a lot of them didn't come on third down.


Either way, its safe to say he would have stopped at least a couple scoring drives for us this year. because of his sacks alone!

That's not really a valid comparison because in Bates' system that's the DTs job almost exclusively; DEs rush the QB and LBs rush the QB and force back back inside for DTs to tackle. All of which only underscores our deficiencies at DT; they have about 75% of the run stopping responsibilities, so if they don't get it done... well, we'll finish in the bottom five in rushing D.


LOL, did you forget that Bates coached for the phins while Taylor was there? Do I need to bring up Taylors #'s while playing in Bates system.

Also, if what you say is true then Kerney would have even more sacks in Bates system ;)


However, if you REALLY want to go there, Ebenezer Ekuban chased Tomlinson the width of the field and tackled him for a loss last year and I STILL had to endure demands for lots of DEs despite the fact the only DT we had worthy of the name was Gerard Warren. I get the feeling sometimes no matter how good our ends are people will want more and better; the truth is no matter how good they are it won't matter until we have some quality NTs to anchor the line in the middle. If we were getting beat by QBs snapping the ball and just running out the clock because no one can get to them I might see your point, but we're getting beat up the gut, and all the DEs in the world won't help us there. On the other hand, if we get a couple quality NTs to rotate in the middle it will not only stop the run and force the pass, but also demand double teams and/or collapse the pocket on those passes, so QBs can't just step up and avoid a DE coming off the corner.


Who here said we don't need DT's? :confused: We also suck on special teams, maybe we shouldn't worry about getting a stud DT until we get that fixed?

The bottom line here is that we sucked on the D-line this year. Yes I agree we had better do something to fill the holes in the middle. Does that mean we should pass on the chance to improve the team at DE? NO!


It tells us we had decent ends last year, went out and bet the farm on DEs in last years draft, and lots of other teams still have better lines; maybe it's time to look at something OTHER than DE. That's probably my pet peeve in these debates; I can get behind all the people who say, "we need DL" right up until they reveal what they really mean is "we need DEs". Defensive ends are a vital part of a defensive line, but they're only half the story.


I agree 100% with this. If getting Taylor ment we don't address the biggest problem on this team, DT then I don't want Taylor. I just don't see why we can't make an effort to get Taylor and still address the problem at TD in the draft or FA?

How many games did we LOSE because we couldn't stop the run without putting 8 or 9 guys in the box (which just means a three step drop and throw it to any of the many open receivers)? How many times have we given up >100 rushing yards this year? How much does Kerney change that?


Our DE's are getting thrown around as much as our DT's are. I believe Kerney helps out a lot with this. How many long 3rd downs have we gave up because we couldn't get any pressure on the QB? How much does Kerney change that? :coffee:

Timmy!
12-23-2007, 06:19 PM
DT and OL help please. Pass on Taylor.

fcspikeit
12-23-2007, 06:21 PM
It took me about 20 posts to get clean. Its cool over here. I think most everybody will find their way over here. 10 or so came today, including me. Nation is too cartoonish and elementary for me.


It's been great here. I hope some of the kids on BM stay there!

It's nice just talking with the grown ups about football.

I know we have some good young posters here, I am not talking about you. :salute:

Bronco9798
12-23-2007, 06:22 PM
Yeah, I'm old. I'm 45..;-)

Lonestar
12-23-2007, 06:28 PM
Yeah, I'm old. I'm 45..;-)

just a kid.. ;)

SmilinAssasSin27
12-23-2007, 06:36 PM
:welcome: to the blue zone we are always looking for informed posters:salute:

Who told you I was informed? I want names.

Thanx for the welcome. We'll have fun here...as long as the members don't mind large groups of tailgaters at all Bronco away games!

:elefant: BTW, what's up w/ the elephant? I am loving this thing.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-23-2007, 06:38 PM
Yeah, I'm old. I'm 45..;-)


Wow. That IS old. Sorry man. Are you spending all yer free time playing checkers in the park yet?

Lonestar
12-23-2007, 06:48 PM
Wow. That IS old. Sorry man. Are you spending all yer free time playing checkers in the park yet?

On this forum your a youngin or young enough to be a lot of members kids that is.

Most of my free time is riding herd on this forum. .;)

fcspikeit
12-23-2007, 06:52 PM
Is anyone watching the Pats game? Taylor is a beast! He has been chasing and sacking Brady all day. I have seen him stop the RB in the backfield 3 or 4 times.

Man I hope we get him! :D

AFGAHNI_BATTLE_DONKEY
12-23-2007, 06:55 PM
getting taylor is not a bad thing because he can still play for an old guy.

but i wouldnt give up a first rounder for him. not even a 2nd.
broncos need to build for the future and i think a guy like taylor is a great athlete but is to old to rely on for more then 2 years.

Hawgdriver
12-24-2007, 07:24 PM
I'm against getting JT. That's a move you make when you're knocking on the door. We're not there. It would be salary cap suicide. We'd get piped in the free agency market if we went after him, and not be able to target a top-shelf DT or LB. It's a move I can understand, but I really think we're not in a position to benefit...maybe if he was younger...34 is a bit old for a DE, even if he's still bringin' the heat this year. By the time we have a superbowl caliber defense (09 at the earliest), JT would be taking Crowder or Moss' place. Bad idea.

DenBronx
12-25-2007, 02:43 AM
i'll pre buy shanny some ky jelly just in case he makes this move.

TXBRONC
12-25-2007, 12:40 PM
i'll pre buy shanny some ky jelly just in case he makes this move.

It certainly wouldn't be worth it in my opinion. I know that Shanahan thinks in terms of Super Bowls but I think this teams is couple years away from that. With that in mind Jason Taylor would be a short term solution that ultimately doesn't pay off in the long run.

Stargazer
12-27-2007, 02:48 AM
"Which is just exactly why, when the Miami Dolphins dangle defensive end Jason Taylor for a trade in the new year as expected, there are many in the league who believe the Broncos will be at the front of the line."

7 pages in response to an article in the RMN?:laugh: And this is what people are getting riled up for?

Because many in the league believe the Broncos will make an attempt to trade for Taylor?:laugh:

Now, if Jim Bates wasn't the D coach, would this trade idea or the suggestion of Taylor coming to Denver would ever be discussed? Highly doubt it.