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abennink
10-10-2009, 04:04 PM
Hello all,

Came here to do some Moreno research for my fantasy team and posted this in the gameday threat but figured I'd make a main page post. Thought I'd offer a view on Sunday from the perspective of a non-arrogant Pats fan who doesn't feel that he personally won 3 Super Bowls.

1) Happy that the anti-Orton pundits are having a harder and harder time. This guy was $ at Purdue, doesn't make many mistakes, underrated arm, was better than Grossman in Chicago, and is now arguably better than Cutler in Denver. If Ray Lewis can kill someone and get universal respect, why does Orton get so much hate? Never could figure it out.

2) Can't wait to watch your team to see how your defense improved. Terrible last year, now it looks great. Granted, you've played a crappy bunch of teams, but still, no passing TDs allowed? Dawkins and Bailey is like a turn of the millenium dream team, but they can still play. Never knew why Dumerville dropped in the draft so much but we could sure use him on the Pats. Matt Light is the shakiest pro bowl tackle I've ever seen, and Dumerville has the potential to give him fits, but he could also get neutralized even without referees ignoring holding, which by the way happens to every team, holding is probably the least consistent call, any play could be considered holding based on what I've seen this year.

3) If you think that your defense can give Brady fits after beating the teams you did, you should probably consider what the Pats D can do to Orton. You guys let in wayyy fewer points but only allow 12 fewer yards per game, and you haven't gone against a good QB yet unless you count Palmer and the Stokely Stunner. We don't have the playmakers you do, definitely not, but I think you'll be surprised by how good our relatively unknown secondary is. I think it's the best we've had since Ty Law left town. By the way, Stokely was a redheaded Colt, so I hate him, but I loved the Madden-style parallel run along the goal line to take time off the clock. Awesome.

4) You guys have two more days as the outlier of the NFL. Undefeated, allowing less than a TD, out of nowhere, etc. The Pats need work to become a SB contender this year, but if you win Sunday, you could make a case for being a top 3 team. If you lose, you could make a case for being outside the top 15-18. A win would be great, but as a Pats fan who has witness impossible victories (1st superbowl) and colossal letdowns (07), just enjoy the next two days. I think we can all agree that the late 90s Broncos definitely had a different offensive game then this current team, traditional QB, MYP-caliber RB, HOF TE and WR, not exactly surprise teams like the '09 Broncos. If you win, it'll get better, but in case you don't, enjoy the fact that right now you guys are an undefeated statistical anomaly.

5) Not trying to insult anyone here, but it's amazing how clueless people are about the Pats and the new QB rules. Sure, the Suggs dive was pretty weak, but the rule clearly states "forceful contact," and the word "forceful" is subjective. Tom Brady calling for a flag is something Peyton Manning does all the time, I don't like it, but if other people can do it and still make 10 commercials a year, then Brady can do it. Trust me, if it happened to Orton and extended a Broncos drive, you might not like it, but you'd live with it. The NFL made a new set of receiver contact rules to hurt the Pats method of secondary defense against the Colts when the Pats didn't injure them during their routes, so if that's ok to do, then rules protecting the health of the most important and marketable players in the league is as well.

Also, Mike Wright got penalized for the same "touching the head" call that Ngata did, and Adalius Thomas and Vince Wilfork got bogus roughing the passer calls in the Bills game to the extent that the NFL ref union apologized to Wilfork. Was that on ESPN's front page? No, because it doesn't attract the jealous, anti-Patriot trolling that other fan bases seem to prefer over rooting for their own marginally successful teams. Did anyone complain about that? No, actually, not even Pats fans, despite the fact that people said the Pats were done in a close game when the calls went against them, and then 3 weeks later when the Pats get a borderline call, it's the only reason they won.

The only reason I'm ranting is that half the post here say "If the refs..." Guys, you need a win against a good team before the refs become more important than the players. Refs screw everyone eventually, even the almighty Pats, and I'm not even talking about the Champ Bailey fumble.


Hope the refs rant wasn't too harsh, just needed to get it out of my system. This should be a great, close game. I think your team is going to be the toughest for Brady to face, and it'll be a great test for both of our teams. I'll keep lurking and am happy to answer any Pats Qs or put on a dress and cry for help as you all dive for my helpless knees

TXBRONC
10-10-2009, 04:38 PM
Hello all,

Came here to do some Moreno research for my fantasy team and posted this in the gameday threat but figured I'd make a main page post. Thought I'd offer a view on Sunday from the perspective of a non-arrogant Pats fan who doesn't feel that he personally won 3 Super Bowls.

1) Happy that the anti-Orton pundits are having a harder and harder time. This guy was $ at Purdue, doesn't make many mistakes, underrated arm, was better than Grossman in Chicago, and is now arguably better than Cutler in Denver. If Ray Lewis can kill someone and get universal respect, why does Orton get so much hate? Never could figure it out.

2) Can't wait to watch your team to see how your defense improved. Terrible last year, now it looks great. Granted, you've played a crappy bunch of teams, but still, no passing TDs allowed? Dawkins and Bailey is like a turn of the millenium dream team, but they can still play. Never knew why Dumerville dropped in the draft so much but we could sure use him on the Pats. Matt Light is the shakiest pro bowl tackle I've ever seen, and Dumerville has the potential to give him fits, but he could also get neutralized even without referees ignoring holding, which by the way happens to every team, holding is probably the least consistent call, any play could be considered holding based on what I've seen this year.

3) If you think that your defense can give Brady fits after beating the teams you did, you should probably consider what the Pats D can do to Orton. You guys let in wayyy fewer points but only allow 12 fewer yards per game, and you haven't gone against a good QB yet unless you count Palmer and the Stokely Stunner. We don't have the playmakers you do, definitely not, but I think you'll be surprised by how good our relatively unknown secondary is. I think it's the best we've had since Ty Law left town. By the way, Stokely was a redheaded Colt, so I hate him, but I loved the Madden-style parallel run along the goal line to take time off the clock. Awesome.

4) You guys have two more days as the outlier of the NFL. Undefeated, allowing less than a TD, out of nowhere, etc. The Pats need work to become a SB contender this year, but if you win Sunday, you could make a case for being a top 3 team. If you lose, you could make a case for being outside the top 15-18. A win would be great, but as a Pats fan who has witness impossible victories (1st superbowl) and colossal letdowns (07), just enjoy the next two days. I think we can all agree that the late 90s Broncos definitely had a different offensive game then this current team, traditional QB, MYP-caliber RB, HOF TE and WR, not exactly surprise teams like the '09 Broncos. If you win, it'll get better, but in case you don't, enjoy the fact that right now you guys are an undefeated statistical anomaly.

5) Not trying to insult anyone here, but it's amazing how clueless people are about the Pats and the new QB rules. Sure, the Suggs dive was pretty weak, but the rule clearly states "forceful contact," and the word "forceful" is subjective. Tom Brady calling for a flag is something Peyton Manning does all the time, I don't like it, but if other people can do it and still make 10 commercials a year, then Brady can do it. Trust me, if it happened to Orton and extended a Broncos drive, you might not like it, but you'd live with it. The NFL made a new set of receiver contact rules to hurt the Pats method of secondary defense against the Colts when the Pats didn't injure them during their routes, so if that's ok to do, then rules protecting the health of the most important and marketable players in the league is as well.

Also, Mike Wright got penalized for the same "touching the head" call that Ngata did, and Adalius Thomas and Vince Wilfork got bogus roughing the passer calls in the Bills game to the extent that the NFL ref union apologized to Wilfork. Was that on ESPN's front page? No, because it doesn't attract the jealous, anti-Patriot trolling that other fan bases seem to prefer over rooting for their own marginally successful teams. Did anyone complain about that? No, actually, not even Pats fans, despite the fact that people said the Pats were done in a close game when the calls went against them, and then 3 weeks later when the Pats get a borderline call, it's the only reason they won.

The only reason I'm ranting is that half the post here say "If the refs..." Guys, you need a win against a good team before the refs become more important than the players. Refs screw everyone eventually, even the almighty Pats, and I'm not even talking about the Champ Bailey fumble.


Hope the refs rant wasn't too harsh, just needed to get it out of my system. This should be a great, close game. I think your team is going to be the toughest for Brady to face, and it'll be a great test for both of our teams. I'll keep lurking and am happy to answer any Pats Qs or put on a dress and cry for help as you all dive for my helpless knees

I think Dallas counts as good football team according to the pundits. That being said Romo isn't considered one of the two elite quarterbacks in this League and we have face both of them this season.

I think your Patriots are beatable even with Brady but Denver can ill afford to squander scoring opportunities nor can they afford dumb penalties to where they end up turning the ball over on downs.

Dumervil can give every left tackle in this fits because of his natural leverage advantage. I'm hard pressed to think of any left tackles at least 4 inches taller than he is. When you're a defensive end that is just under 6'0" tall (5'11 and 3/4" to be exact) well that's going hurt your draft stock. I would not be surprised if Dumervil had been about 6'1" he probably would have went to high in the draft for us get him.

honz
10-10-2009, 04:45 PM
Personally, I think the Broncos are going to win.

Day1BroncoFan
10-10-2009, 05:04 PM
The Broncos can win it as long as the D does to the Patriots what it has done to other teams so far, slow the run and limit scoring. Our D isn't the best as far as moving the ball but they are hard to score on.

Our O has to play good penalty free football and not squander scoring oppurtunities in the first half. The O seems to play better in the second half and they will need to keep that up for this game.

abennink
10-10-2009, 05:05 PM
I think Dallas counts as good football team according to the pundits. That being said Romo isn't considered one of the two elite quarterbacks in this League and we have face both of them this season.

I think your Patriots are beatable even with Brady but Denver can ill afford to squander scoring opportunities nor can they afford dumb penalties to where they end up turning the ball over on downs.

Dumervil can give every left tackle in this fits because of his natural leverage advantage. I'm hard pressed to think of any left tackles at least 4 inches taller than he is. When you're a defensive end that is just under 6'0" tall (5'11 and 3/4" to be exact) well that's going hurt your draft stock. I would not be surprised if Dumervil had been about 6'1" he probably would have went to high in the draft for us get him.

I don't think Dallas is very good, and I'm sure many agree. They have the potential to be good because they have several impact players at key positions, but I like your team and the Pats far more. Romo isn't a top 6 QB, let alone top 2- Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Warner, Big Ben have all done better in the regular season and the playoffs than Romo including recently. He may not even be top 10- Rodgers and Cutler are doing more with less (EDIT: not on the WR corps, but overall) and McNabb and Favre are still around and are in the discussion with Romo. Orton's up there too right now.

That's a good point about Dumerville's height and point of leverage. I don't buy into the height knock for certain defensive positions like DE and MLB, Beason was supposed to be too small, London Baker Fletcher, Dumerville, Leon Hall, etc. Dwight Freeney is the guy Matt Light has the most trouble with, and he's 6'1'," so I think you are right on with the leverage point, and many GMs would be wise to catch up.

I think the Patriots should win, but this game shouldn't be much easier than Baltimore, and I see some similarities between you and them. Great D, solid QB who doesn't make critical errors, young and very talented RB, good young coach, etc. Your inside knowledge of the Pats system is icing on the cake.

titan
10-10-2009, 05:51 PM
Brady is great (and my fantasy team qb) but in his last appearance in Denver he was missing open receivers all night (the playoff loss). I don't know what was wrong with Brady that game - I think the Broncos blitzes that night threw him off. The next week Rothlisberger of Pittsburgh didn't miss his open receivers as the Steelers beat the Broncos in the AFC Championship game.

I'm hoping Brady plays like he did last time he visited the Mile High City.

Lonestar
10-10-2009, 05:53 PM
welcome to the forum being a good "other fan is OK we have many from other teams that want to talk football.

feel free to come back after Y'all lose to discuss why..

AgentOrange
10-10-2009, 06:00 PM
5) Not trying to insult anyone here, but it's amazing how clueless people are about the Pats and the new QB rules. Sure, the Suggs dive was pretty weak, but the rule clearly states "forceful contact," and the word "forceful" is subjective. Tom Brady calling for a flag is something Peyton Manning does all the time, I don't like it, but if other people can do it and still make 10 commercials a year, then Brady can do it. Trust me, if it happened to Orton and extended a Broncos drive, you might not like it, but you'd live with it. The NFL made a new set of receiver contact rules to hurt the Pats method of secondary defense against the Colts when the Pats didn't injure them during their routes, so if that's ok to do, then rules protecting the health of the most important and marketable players in the league is as well.
What I am looking for (and I suspect the players are too) is consistency. If they want the defense to play flag football where the QB is concerned, then put it in writing and stick to it. Otherwise, if the QB's supposed to be tackled before being called down, then state the parameters AND STICK TO THEM. Non of this nancy-boy "you touched him too hard" BS.

Bronco Warrior
10-10-2009, 06:21 PM
Hope that Tom will be OK and make it all the way through the game without an injury and will have a great day and be totally confortable in the pocket and have all day to throw!

Bronco Warrior
10-10-2009, 06:32 PM
But it was funny! And I lost track of wwhere I was :(

abennink
10-10-2009, 07:51 PM
What I am looking for (and I suspect the players are too) is consistency. If they want the defense to play flag football where the QB is concerned, then put it in writing and stick to it. Otherwise, if the QB's supposed to be tackled before being called down, then state the parameters AND STICK TO THEM. Non of this nancy-boy "you touched him too hard" BS.

I agree completely. You shouldn't have subjective rules, it just produces frustration and conspiracy. The thing about the Helmet Catch vs. the Giants that no one remembers is the Pats got a fairly weak ROP call shortly before. On the helmet catch, you can see the defender just kind of holding Eli in place instead of slamming him so it didn't happen again, and that allowed Eli to make the play. Is it the rules' fault? No, the Giants made the play, but it still makes me want to drop F bombs at the rules and refs.

Being pissed at these rules is fine in my opinion, we as fans buy the concessions and fill the stadiums. But I see the media and the dumber fans take it out on Brady and the Pats week after week when it's a league-wide pandemic. Then I watch the games, and other games, and see that this is probably the most biased, selective analysis in recent sports media history, other than maybe the BCS. I hope the refs don't make dumb calls this week so the witch hunt stops a little bit.

The "bad" Pats fans, along with Yankees fans, are probably the worst in sports. They think every Pat's a Pro Bowler and every other team sucks if they don't go 16-0, kind of like that Overtime dude with the Knowshon nonsense- it's embarrassing. But if these lame rules and the accompanying media Patriots bias doesn't subside, the dumber Pats fans will just get less logical and more annoying. I see this situation causing a ton of trolling and interruption of otherwise enlightening analysis and debate. As a Pats fan who tries to keep emotions and insults in check and does not want to be confused with the others, I probably want this straightened out as much as you all. It's one thing for everyone else to hate your team, but you don't want them to hate you.

abennink
10-10-2009, 08:08 PM
I went to Emory U. in Atlanta so I watched a lot of Knowshon. I'm very familiar with Orton as well. I don't really have a read on your receivers or your defense. I know all the players, their reps, stats, etc, but little else. I'm just gonna ask a bunch of Q's and let you pick and choose.

Defense: What D do you run? How often do you substitute LBs, DEs? Why would you say you've made such a turnaround? Scheme? Personnel? Player development? Schedule? The all mighty touch of McDeeznuts? A touch of each? What's the best way to beat you and the best way to play into your strengths? Who's the weak link on the line, LBs and secondary, and how much and in what ways does it affect everyone else's job?

Receivers: Is the drop in production a transition/adaptation period between Cutler and Orton that it subsiding, or is it more that Orton wins "ugly" in antithesis of Cutler losing "powerfully," and that the gratuitous stats of the Cutler days have been replaced by wins? Is there a re-emphasis on the running game compared to last year, when Cutler seemed to be the clear face of the team on the national level? Do you think expectations should be lowered from last year or stay the same? How do you compare Marshall to Moss aside from speed? Is Royal at all similar to Welker or is that just me listening to the wrong fans?

Thanks in advance, this is the first team Pats have played this year that I don't know inside and out, and I'm not even close.

Angel
10-10-2009, 08:15 PM
Both teams are overrated, the Bronco's were lucky to beat the Bengals, the Pats were lucky to beat the Bills and the Refs gave them the game against the Ravens. If the Bronco's get pressure on Brady he'll crack like he did against the Jets and start throwing temper tantrums!

abennink
10-10-2009, 08:24 PM
Both teams are overrated, the Bronco's were lucky to beat the Bengals, the Pats were lucky to beat the Bills and the Refs gave them the game against the Ravens. If the Bronco's get pressure on Brady he'll crack like he did against the Jets and start throwing temper tantrums!

You can't have your cake and eat it too, unless we're talking about the kind of cake that Bobby Brown cooks up. The head of the ref union apologized to Wilfork for the call that was made. If the Pats were lucky to beat the Bills, it's because they overcame crappy officiating and took over at the end. If the Pats did these two things, then it's up to the Ravens to at least do one of them, especially if you think the Pats are overrated.

Conversely, if the refs gave the Ravens game to the Pats, then they tried to give it to the Bills too (ref union hasn't apologized to Suggs or Ngata, who got flagged for the same thing Mike Wright was in the same game). Pick one and stick with it. By the way, how can you say the Broncs are overrated when their own fans on this fine board rank them outside the top 10 right now? For an undefeated team entering week 5, that's underrated.

gregbroncs
10-10-2009, 09:06 PM
Good thread to the OP and nice post.

However your homerism for the Pats shows up a bit here. There was a play where Flacco was Clearly hit below the knees and that was not called. It was a much harder hit than the one on Brady and if they are going to say any contact below the knees is a penalty then that play should have been called as well. It was more obvious and deserving of the penalty.

The other reason everybody complains about the Brady rule is that this rule was enacted because of his injury. There have been many QB's hurt in this method. Why did the rule not come into effect until it happened to Brady? Then the 1st guy to benefit from the rule (at least publicly) is also Brady. I don't agree they have a different set of rules for Brady but I do feel that the criticism about these plays and the handling of them is partially justified.

Good luck to your Patriots. But I hope they lose. ;)

abennink
10-10-2009, 09:43 PM
Good thread to the OP and nice post.

However your homerism for the Pats shows up a bit here. There was a play where Flacco was Clearly hit below the knees and that was not called. It was a much harder hit than the one on Brady and if they are going to say any contact below the knees is a penalty then that play should have been called as well. It was more obvious and deserving of the penalty.

The other reason everybody complains about the Brady rule is that this rule was enacted because of his injury. There have been many QB's hurt in this method. Why did the rule not come into effect until it happened to Brady? Then the 1st guy to benefit from the rule (at least publicly) is also Brady. I don't agree they have a different set of rules for Brady but I do feel that the criticism about these plays and the handling of them is partially justified.

Good luck to your Patriots. But I hope they lose. ;)

I don't remember that play, I have the game on DVR, do you have the quarter and approximate game clock time? Can't judge the play yet, but I can say that I have seen strangely paradoxical calls on QBs all year in many games, but the media is making Brady and the Pats, well, scapegoats, essentially. Do you think that's an unfair statement? I didn't hear ESPN and Yahoo taking shots at Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison and the Colts the year after the NFL changed the rules to disallow contact within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage, and I paid quite a bit of attention as an unabashed hater of all things Colt (with the exception of Peyton on SNL, I tried not to laugh and failed).

It's true that the NFL enacted the rule because of him, but that's the NFL's problem. Again, no Colts national or local call outs after that rule change, and though people are calling out the NFL on this issue, it's more often the Pats who get hit, especially from an editorial standpoint. I think it's way more complex than the rule being named after Brady, it delves into politics, money, jealousy, etc, and how groups of people are influenced.

This is very general, but a good illustration what I mean. Not for everyone, but for large groups of people and possibly the majority of NFL fans. Columnists and sportswriters, especially those with national audiences, contracts, and television rights, have a much easier time calling out a specific team than to question the league that essentially writes their checks (MNF, sportscenter coverage, ad rev, etc). This was especially easy because the Patriots are probably the least liked team, mostly because of Spygate, because they have been better this decade than pretty much any other team, because their coach is arrogant. The fact that Brady dates supermodels doesn't help. Your Broncos have a proud history, recent success, and unadulterated greatness a mere decade ago. Most football fans aren't as lucky as we are.

People root for the underdog, they make up the majority of fans without affiliation to a directly involved team, and the Patriots went from David in the first SB to Goliath at some point after. Because people dislike the Patriots, people will read articles and tune in to watch the Patriots get questioned. Because this is how the media makes money they create stories not out of nowhere, because there is questionable stuff going on, but out of context. The Patriots are polarizing- you kind of have to love them or hate them unless you're a NY Giants fan of lesser intelligence, but either way, you have an opinion, possibly enough to click a link of delay changing the channel for a bit. The smarter fans who can temper their emotions can acknowledge this, but the above average ESPN troller would insult your mom if you said the preceding.

I agree that the Pats have received wack calls, and that the rule was enacted because of league reaction to Brady's injury. But that's all I can concede right now. They've been flagged for 2 bogus calls and several calls that I feel are bogus but aren't, like when Mike Wright/Ngata made helmet contact. I'm not complaining, but I am trying to point out that the Pats are taking a lot of heat for Goodell's kitchen and a fair amount of misplaced blame from frustrated fans. Not saying it's right or wrong, not even saying it's Broncos fans. The Patriots really are polarizing, I can't believe I feel this strongly about a topic that has little to do with tomorrow's matchup. Oh well. I think they should just change the name from Saturday to Purgatory.

T.K.O.
10-10-2009, 09:46 PM
i am sooooooooo excited about this game i might not get much sleep tonight!
its crazy i know because its only week 5,but damn....if we can pull this game out,the boys are gonna be so stoked.
i mean even though they all say "it doesnt matter what people outside the locker room think" and the perenial "one week at a time"....blah blah
they will know they are getting to be a damn good team and have the capacity to improve alot more as the season goes on.
i think they will start to get the swagger that it takes to beat alot of very good teams they face
too the playoffs ....and beyond ! *BUZZED LIGHTYEAR -:salute:

TXBRONC
10-10-2009, 10:06 PM
I don't think Dallas is very good, and I'm sure many agree. They have the potential to be good because they have several impact players at key positions, but I like your team and the Pats far more. Romo isn't a top 6 QB, let alone top 2- Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Warner, Big Ben have all done better in the regular season and the playoffs than Romo including recently. He may not even be top 10- Rodgers and Cutler are doing more with less (EDIT: not on the WR corps, but overall) and McNabb and Favre are still around and are in the discussion with Romo. Orton's up there too right now.

That's a good point about Dumerville's height and point of leverage. I don't buy into the height knock for certain defensive positions like DE and MLB, Beason was supposed to be too small, London Baker Fletcher, Dumerville, Leon Hall, etc. Dwight Freeney is the guy Matt Light has the most trouble with, and he's 6'1'," so I think you are right on with the leverage point, and many GMs would be wise to catch up.

I think the Patriots should win, but this game shouldn't be much easier than Baltimore, and I see some similarities between you and them. Great D, solid QB who doesn't make critical errors, young and very talented RB, good young coach, etc. Your inside knowledge of the Pats system is icing on the cake.

Dumervil also has long reach for man his height. I wouldn't doubt if his reach close that of Ryan Clady our left tackle who stand 6'6".

Superchop 7
10-10-2009, 10:06 PM
Ummmm, been to Gillette, been to the bar near Gillette, in Bronco's jersey.

The people there were unbelievably gracious.

There was a mutual respect.

That being said......

Good luck Sunday.

Should be a good battle.

Lonestar
10-10-2009, 10:26 PM
Dumervil also has long reach for man his height. I wouldn't doubt if his reach close that of Ryan Clady our left tackle who stand 6'6".


they say his reach is of a 6'6" player, that his arms are just that long..

abennink
10-11-2009, 01:19 AM
I'm getting progressively more worried about Brandon Marshall depending on how we match up with him. The NFL sabermetricians rate us weak vs. #1 receivers and top 8 vs. #2 receivers, which makes me think they are qualifying Shawn Springs as our #1 guy.

If Shawn Springs covers Marshall, it could be a disaster. I'd rather have Bodden step up, he's been our best corner thus far and is probably the most underrated player in the AFC East, I might prefer him to Samuels. Springs in the last 2 games has been giving underneath routes to receivers like Cotchery and Mason and has been the weak link in the secondary.

Brandon Marshall is probably one of 5 NFL receivers that I think is most capable of ripping this apart. Bodden has the size and speed to bother Marshall, I'd rather take my chances with Royal covered by Springs and Butler. I don't see Eddie Royal having his breakout today.

Ultimately this game is about the New England offense. If we play like we are capable of, it will be difficult for Denver to play from behind. Your defense can potentially contain Moss, stifle our running game, and affect Brady.

If the game is close entering the 4th quarter, I think the game depends on Wes Welker. If it's close and he's not producing not only catches but targets, we seem likely to lose.

Conversely, if you win I'm guessing it will be close and Knowshon will be the difference for you, because I think if you win it's because you are exploiting the Pats run D. If I had to pick a way to go down, better that than a Springs screw up leading a Brandon Marshall replay from last week.

broncophan
10-11-2009, 01:45 AM
The Pats start worrying about Marshall......would be good.....to free up Royal......hopefully Royal has his first productive game of the year.

I don't think the Pats are that good.....and them being favored by 3 pts in Denver is a surprise to me, although I don't think the broncos are THAT good either.

Win at home like you are supposed to do...

GO BRONCOS!!!

gregbroncs
10-11-2009, 10:57 AM
I don't remember that play, I have the game on DVR, do you have the quarter and approximate game clock time? Can't judge the play yet, but I can say that I have seen strangely paradoxical calls on QBs all year in many games, but the media is making Brady and the Pats, well, scapegoats, essentially. Do you think that's an unfair statement? I didn't hear ESPN and Yahoo taking shots at Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison and the Colts the year after the NFL changed the rules to disallow contact within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage, and I paid quite a bit of attention as an unabashed hater of all things Colt (with the exception of Peyton on SNL, I tried not to laugh and failed).

It's true that the NFL enacted the rule because of him, but that's the NFL's problem. Again, no Colts national or local call outs after that rule change, and though people are calling out the NFL on this issue, it's more often the Pats who get hit, especially from an editorial standpoint. I think it's way more complex than the rule being named after Brady, it delves into politics, money, jealousy, etc, and how groups of people are influenced.

This is very general, but a good illustration what I mean. Not for everyone, but for large groups of people and possibly the majority of NFL fans. Columnists and sportswriters, especially those with national audiences, contracts, and television rights, have a much easier time calling out a specific team than to question the league that essentially writes their checks (MNF, sportscenter coverage, ad rev, etc). This was especially easy because the Patriots are probably the least liked team, mostly because of Spygate, because they have been better this decade than pretty much any other team, because their coach is arrogant. The fact that Brady dates supermodels doesn't help. Your Broncos have a proud history, recent success, and unadulterated greatness a mere decade ago. Most football fans aren't as lucky as we are.

People root for the underdog, they make up the majority of fans without affiliation to a directly involved team, and the Patriots went from David in the first SB to Goliath at some point after. Because people dislike the Patriots, people will read articles and tune in to watch the Patriots get questioned. Because this is how the media makes money they create stories not out of nowhere, because there is questionable stuff going on, but out of context. The Patriots are polarizing- you kind of have to love them or hate them unless you're a NY Giants fan of lesser intelligence, but either way, you have an opinion, possibly enough to click a link of delay changing the channel for a bit. The smarter fans who can temper their emotions can acknowledge this, but the above average ESPN troller would insult your mom if you said the preceding.

I agree that the Pats have received wack calls, and that the rule was enacted because of league reaction to Brady's injury. But that's all I can concede right now. They've been flagged for 2 bogus calls and several calls that I feel are bogus but aren't, like when Mike Wright/Ngata made helmet contact. I'm not complaining, but I am trying to point out that the Pats are taking a lot of heat for Goodell's kitchen and a fair amount of misplaced blame from frustrated fans. Not saying it's right or wrong, not even saying it's Broncos fans. The Patriots really are polarizing, I can't believe I feel this strongly about a topic that has little to do with tomorrow's matchup. Oh well. I think they should just change the name from Saturday to Purgatory.

the play was shown on NFL live on showtime. It shows a Pat hitting Flacco high while his teammate hits him below the knees from behind. It ends up in a sack I believe. Don't know when it occurred sorry.

abennink
10-11-2009, 11:40 AM
the play was shown on NFL live on showtime. It shows a Pat hitting Flacco high while his teammate hits him below the knees from behind. It ends up in a sack I believe. Don't know when it occurred sorry.

Probably not the best to dwell in the past when it comes to the NFL anyway. Hopefully none of this BS happens today and we see a consistently officiated game. What a horrible slate of early games, by the way. Dallas-KC and NYG-Oakland? Awful.

abennink
10-11-2009, 11:55 AM
4 of 5 ESPN "analysts" pick the Patriots to win, 3 of them without even explaining themselves.

CANCEL THE GAME! CANCEL THE GAME!

gobroncsnv
10-11-2009, 03:00 PM
Well, there are a whole lot of us Bronc fans who aren't even sure of what we've got yet. Just like last week, this game gives a more clear picture. I hope the zebras are a complete non-factor (as they should be), and whoever wins does so without any cloud on it. The rules are the rules, you can't change them until next off-season, so just call everything the same. No injuries also. Just a good, solid football game. All I ask.
Forgot to mention one of the teams remaining undefeated.

abennink
10-11-2009, 11:22 PM
Well, there are a whole lot of us Bronc fans who aren't even sure of what we've got yet. Just like last week, this game gives a more clear picture. I hope the zebras are a complete non-factor (as they should be), and whoever wins does so without any cloud on it. The rules are the rules, you can't change them until next off-season, so just call everything the same. No injuries also. Just a good, solid football game. All I ask.
Forgot to mention one of the teams remaining undefeated.

I don't think the officiating decided the game, I thought the Pats playcalling was awful. but I thought it was horrible today. Two plays against the Broncos frustrated me, including the pedestrian roughing the kicker, because I feel like if we win and get those calls in the process, we get no credit whatsoever and I'd like to win without "help."

That said, the "taunting" call on Merriweather was a joke. Ray Lewis does that every 5 plays. Champ Bailey did it today. Every wide receiver in the league does it nearly every time a 1st down is made. I convinced 3 overconfident Pats fans at my spot that the Broncs were to be respected, and it worked until that call.

Oh look, the official ESPN recap of the game doesn't even mention the "taunting" call, yet any call the Pats get when they win is the centerpiece of an entirely separate anti-Pats column.

Oh well. Tough loss against a playoff team, and the game went exactly as I posted it would yesterday. Good thing I'm saving up my allowance to buy an NFL team...

Day1BroncoFan
10-11-2009, 11:25 PM
Why would the refs calling anything change a fans mind about the team unless they weren't convinced anyway.

It's part of the game and not an excuse.

The Broncos beat the patsies. The D stopped them three times on one drive.

abennink
10-11-2009, 11:38 PM
Why would the refs calling anything change a fans mind about the team unless they weren't convinced anyway.

It's part of the game and not an excuse.

The Broncos beat the patsies. The D stopped them three times on one drive.

Uh, because people change their minds and adapt all the time?

Day1BroncoFan
10-11-2009, 11:40 PM
That's not adapting. That's misplaced blame when you blame a team for what the refs do.

abennink
10-11-2009, 11:45 PM
It's part of the game and not an excuse.



Tell that to the Ravens, the Bills, half the posters on this board, 70% of the posters on the "predictions" thread, Roger Goodell, and ESPN.

abennink
10-11-2009, 11:49 PM
That's not adapting. That's misplaced blame when you blame a team for what the refs do.

Pats fans have been bread to not respect other teams in the past decade. They thought the Broncos sucked, I convinced them the Broncs were legit. That's adapting. Then, when the taunting call goes down, they were pissed. I was pissed too, given that every call we've gotten that's spawned two anti-Patriots articles on every web site was less egregious than that one.

It's used to be "part of the game." This year, it's bigger than the game, especially any time the Patriots win a game.

gobroncsnv
10-11-2009, 11:49 PM
I don't think the officiating decided the game, I thought the Pats playcalling was awful. but I thought it was horrible today. Two plays against the Broncos frustrated me, including the pedestrian roughing the kicker, because I feel like if we win and get those calls in the process, we get no credit whatsoever and I'd like to win without "help."

That said, the "taunting" call on Merriweather was a joke. Ray Lewis does that every 5 plays. Champ Bailey did it today. Every wide receiver in the league does it nearly every time a 1st down is made. I convinced 3 overconfident Pats fans at my spot that the Broncs were to be respected, and it worked until that call.

Oh look, the official ESPN recap of the game doesn't even mention the "taunting" call, yet any call the Pats get when they win is the centerpiece of an entirely separate anti-Pats column.

Oh well. Tough loss against a playoff team, and the game went exactly as I posted it would yesterday. Good thing I'm saving up my allowance to buy an NFL team...

Well, I guess we had to trade the running into the kicker for a taunting call... I don't know, the refs really weren't too much of a factor in my book, pretty well-officiated game. Both sides had stuff to complain about, so it evened out.
I'm wondering if Merriweather might have said something that drew the flag in addition to the pointing crap. Wonder if the NFL Network will have somebody explain that call this week? Would be interesting to hear...

Nevertheless, hat's off to you. We had a pretty reasonable Cowboyz fan (didn't know they MADE such a thing) drop in last week as well, and he posted after the game as well. Pretty classy.

Day1BroncoFan
10-11-2009, 11:51 PM
I don't think the officiating decided the game, I thought the Pats playcalling was awful. but I thought it was horrible today. Two plays against the Broncos frustrated me, including the pedestrian roughing the kicker, because I feel like if we win and get those calls in the process, we get no credit whatsoever and I'd like to win without "help."

That said, the "taunting" call on Merriweather was a joke. Ray Lewis does that every 5 plays. Champ Bailey did it today. Every wide receiver in the league does it nearly every time a 1st down is made. I convinced 3 overconfident Pats fans at my spot that the Broncs were to be respected, and it worked until that call.

Oh look, the official ESPN recap of the game doesn't even mention the "taunting" call, yet any call the Pats get when they win is the centerpiece of an entirely separate anti-Pats column.

Oh well. Tough loss against a playoff team, and the game went exactly as I posted it would yesterday. Good thing I'm saving up my allowance to buy an NFL team...

We're talking about some pats fans here.

Unless I'm mistaken you said you had some pats fans convinced we are a good team until a bad call from the ref changes their mind. That has nothing to do with any other teams or any other calls.

We are a good team and those fans changing their mind because of a ref call bad or not is just sore loser syndrom at best.

GEM
10-11-2009, 11:55 PM
I don't think the officiating decided the game, I thought the Pats playcalling was awful. but I thought it was horrible today. Two plays against the Broncos frustrated me, including the pedestrian roughing the kicker, because I feel like if we win and get those calls in the process, we get no credit whatsoever and I'd like to win without "help."

That said, the "taunting" call on Merriweather was a joke. Ray Lewis does that every 5 plays. Champ Bailey did it today. Every wide receiver in the league does it nearly every time a 1st down is made. I convinced 3 overconfident Pats fans at my spot that the Broncs were to be respected, and it worked until that call.

Oh look, the official ESPN recap of the game doesn't even mention the "taunting" call, yet any call the Pats get when they win is the centerpiece of an entirely separate anti-Pats column.

Oh well. Tough loss against a playoff team, and the game went exactly as I posted it would yesterday. Good thing I'm saving up my allowance to buy an NFL team...

It was pointed out by the commentators that the flag was thrown before the defender taunted Royal. Hmmmmm....

Day1BroncoFan
10-11-2009, 11:59 PM
I would like to see the call explained myself but, it isn't a reason to say a team doesn't deserve respect because it was called.

abennink
10-12-2009, 12:01 AM
We're talking about some pats fans here.

Unless I'm mistaken you said you had some pats fans convinced we are a good team until a bad call from the ref changes their mind. That has nothing to do with any other teams or any other calls.

We are a good team and those fans changing their mind because of a ref call bad or not is just sore loser syndrom at best.

What are you saying? That you expect every fan to react with cold logic and analysis in face of a loss? That's unrealistic.

I agree it's sore loser syndrome, it's only going to make Pats fans more annoying, but the league and the entire country made a big deal about the refs every game thus far when it benefited the Pats. Now that a borderline call hurt us, I don't think it's unreasonable for even Pats fans to be pissed not even at losing, but at the biased treatment that Pats have gotten. Not from you guys, Broncos fans, or even anyone on this board. Maybe you have to have read all the ESPN stories and comment the past month to know what I'm talking about.

To be clear, I'm taking no credit away from the Broncos on this one, they deserved to win, but I'm pretty pissed at the league and especially the media. To reiterate though, our playcalling was horrible and Brady wasn't sharp enough to win.

abennink
10-12-2009, 12:03 AM
Congrats to everyone on this board. Regardless of officiating, you guys are for real, as I expected and put on record on this forum. I hope the Pats can live up to our expectations for this year. If so, these two teams will be playing again in much colder weather.

Day1BroncoFan
10-12-2009, 12:04 AM
What are you saying? That you expect every fan to react with cold logic and analysis in face of a loss? That's unrealistic.

I agree it's sore loser syndrome, it's only going to make Pats fans more annoying, but the league and the entire country made a big deal about the refs every game thus far when it benefited the Pats. Now that a borderline call hurt us, I don't think it's unreasonable for even Pats fans to be pissed not even at losing, but at the biased treatment that Pats have gotten. Not from you guys, Broncos fans, or even anyone on this board. Maybe you have to have read all the ESPN stories and comment the past month to know what I'm talking about.

To be clear, I'm taking no credit away from the Broncos on this one, they deserved to win, but I'm pretty pissed at the league and especially the media. To reiterate though, our playcalling was horrible and Brady wasn't sharp enough to win.


That is fine with me. In my post above yours you see my point too. I don't know why it was called but it happens.

abennink
10-12-2009, 12:05 AM
Well, I guess we had to trade the running into the kicker for a taunting call... I don't know, the refs really weren't too much of a factor in my book, pretty well-officiated game. Both sides had stuff to complain about, so it evened out.
I'm wondering if Merriweather might have said something that drew the flag in addition to the pointing crap. Wonder if the NFL Network will have somebody explain that call this week? Would be interesting to hear...

Nevertheless, hat's off to you. We had a pretty reasonable Cowboyz fan (didn't know they MADE such a thing) drop in last week as well, and he posted after the game as well. Pretty classy.

Thanks, I enjoyed posting and this board, the discourse that was had, and the civility and knowledge of the people here. It's always nice to see deserving fans get rewarded with a quality team.

weazel
10-12-2009, 12:11 AM
Congrats to everyone on this board. Regardless of officiating, you guys are for real, as I expected and put on record on this forum. I hope the Pats can live up to our expectations for this year. If so, these two teams will be playing again in much colder weather.

from my observations, Brady is still not totally comfortable. I think after another couple more games he will start hitting his receivers on target and in stride. He is still making some bad throws. I'm glad we played them now and not in a few weeks from now.