Broncos have Lose-Win Situation

[Mike]

By Dave Krieger, Rocky Mountain News
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/20/krieger-losing-out-will-help-broncos-point/

Back in April, at the NFL draft, Mike Shanahan gave up a third-round choice and a sixth-round choice to move up four spots in the first round, from 21st to 17th, so he could take defensive end Jarvis Moss.

The year before, he gave up another third-round choice to move up four spots, from 15th to 11th, so he could take quarterback Jay Cutler.

In other words, Shanahan values the ability to move up in the first round a great deal. You don't just throw away third-round picks. At least, you shouldn't.

Over the final two weeks of this season, the Broncos can move up in next year's first round - and, as a special bonus, all the other rounds, too - simply by losing games that don't matter. Having been eliminated from the playoffs, winning these games offers no tangible reward and precious little intangible consolation for a season gone wrong.

Of course, even if the Broncos want to lose these games, they cannot admit it. Their opponents, the Chargers and Vikings, are still pursuing rewards both immediate and tangible, as are other teams with which they are competing.

But there is an acceptable way to handle it. The Broncos have a right to allocate playing time in their own best interest, which may very well include taking a look at backups to see what they can do.

Taylor Jacobs and Glenn Martinez at wide receiver, for example. P.J. Alexander, Isaac Snell and Ryan Harris on the offensive line. Jordan Beck and Louis Green at linebacker. You see where I'm going with this.

When I asked Shanahan on Wednesday what he was looking to get out of these final games, he took it as an opportunity to talk about how good the Chargers are, which was so far from the question that I thought for a moment I'd stumbled into a presidential debate by mistake. But he finished with this:

"So it's a good challenge for us to at least finish the season on a positive note with some players that haven't played a lot, see what they can do."

This is just what I had in mind. So I asked if that meant he was planning to give backups more playing time in the last two weeks.

"No, we're not, but we've got a number of guys that are young that are playing that get a chance to have some good experience before it's over," he said. "But we'll play our starters just like we have been."

This is not what I had in mind. Everybody talks about finishing strong and ending on a good note, but these are just cliches. A lot of these players won't even be here next year. The only significant difference between finishing 8-8 and finishing 6-10 lies in the draft position that goes with it.

Let's take Ohio State middle linebacker James Laurinaitis as an example. Not to try to recapture the glory of Randy Gradishar, another pretty good Buckeyes 'backer, but hey, you could do worse.

As a junior, Laurinaitis could return to school if he doesn't like what he hears from the NFL College Advisory Committee. But because the committee will undoubtedly tell him he's a first-round pick, I'm assuming Laurinaitis will be available on draft day.

A year ago, the 49ers finished 7-9. They got the 11th pick in the draft. They used it to take the best inside linebacker on the board, Mississippi's Patrick Willis. As a rookie, Willis leads the NFL in tackles and is a Pro Bowl reserve.

Minnesota, Miami and Houston, which finished 6-10 a year ago, ended up with the seventh, ninth and 10th picks. If finishing 6-10 produces a similar result this year, the Broncos should be right in Laurinaitis' neighborhood.

By contrast, teams that finished 8-8 a year ago picked anywhere from 13th to 21st, which is all probably too late for Laurinaitis this year.

I use Laurinaitis as an example because it's my opinion that a stud middle linebacker would be the single biggest upgrade the Broncos could make, not merely because of his play but because he would free up D.J. Williams to play the weak side, potentially giving the Broncos two playmakers for the price of one.

But it doesn't really matter what you think the Broncos need. Clearly, the higher their draft position, the better their chance to grab a difference maker.

Having been eliminated from the playoffs, winning their final two games gets them nothing but a little satisfaction. Losing them accomplishes something they traded valuable draft picks to accomplish each of the past two years.

Let's be honest: Even playing all their starters, the Broncos have a pretty good chance of losing to the Chargers and Vikings, both of whom have better records.

The Broncos are playing for pride. I get that. But if moving up four places in the draft is worth a third-round pick, how much pride is moving up 10 places worth?

[Nomad]

If the BRONCOS are playing for PRIDE now, where has this PRIDE been all year long. I understand there were better teams we played but not the blowouts I witnessed. This cliche gets old because all the losing teams use it every year.

[Mike]

If the BRONCOS are playing for PRIDE now, where has this PRIDE been all year long. I understand there were better teams we played but not the blowouts I witnessed. This cliche gets old because all the losing teams use it every year.

I agree but to be honest...we can't expect them to say anything less. That would probably earn them a quick ticket out of town paid for by Pat Bowlen.

[Fan in Exile]

The whole article would have been more convincing if it weren't for the Laurinitis pick. If you have to get a linebacker get an outside linebacker. Getting an inside lineback is like resigning Ian Gold all over again.

[topscribe]

I would love to see the Broncos get someone of Laurinaitis' reported caliber.
The best move they could make at LB, IMO, would be to find a MLB who is
enough of a force to send D.J. to the weak side, where he could raise the kind
of havoc he promised in his first season here.

Nonetheless, there must be a lot of mixed emotions among the Broncos' front
office. Strong finish or strong draft? Pride and character says strong finish.
Logic and practicality says strong draft.

I'm glad I'm only a spectator. :coffee:

-----

[SR]

DJ said he hated playing Will, so why would you move him back there? He's tied for the AFC lead in tackles in his first year at Mike. Why would you move him now? Stupid if you ask me.

[broncofanatic1987]

The whole article would have been more convincing if it weren't for the Laurinitis pick. If you have to get a linebacker get an outside linebacker. Getting an inside lineback is like resigning Ian Gold all over again.

That's not true. Getting a stud middle linebacker would be like bringing a healthy Al Wilson back. Gold is likely going to be released and who better to replace him than DJ Williams, who performed at a near rookie of the year level at the weak side position in his first year? Williams wouldn't have to make much of an adjustment and it would be the last one he would have to make.

[Mike]

I would love to see the Broncos get someone of Laurinaitis' reported caliber.
The best move they could make at LB, IMO, would be to find a MLB who is
enough of a force to send D.J. to the weak side, where he could raise the kind
of havoc he promised in his first season here.

I was listening to the local station (The Scott and Al show; 950 am) here in Co Spgs the other day.

Al (former Bronco Alfred Williams) was saying that players can play a position well. But for a defense to excel you need players to be playmakers. DJ is growing in the MLB spot, but he isn't the "playmaker" he was at WLB. That is where he had tremendous impact. Maybe he can grow in to a "playmaker" at MLB...but that isn't a certainty. I tend to think that many of the truly great MLBs were instinctual players. If Denver can get a playmaker at MLB and move DJ to WLB then that would be awesome.


Nonetheless, there must be a lot of mixed emotions among the Broncos' front
office. Strong finish or strong draft? Pride and character says strong finish.
Logic and practicality says strong draft.

I'm glad I'm only a spectator. :coffee:

-----

I agree.

I will never hope for a Denver loss. But I guess I could tolerate losses more if it happens in the last two weeks of this season.

[broncofanatic1987]

DJ said he hated playing Will, so why would you move him back there? He's tied for the AFC lead in tackles in his first year at Mike. Why would you move him now? Stupid if you ask me.

DJ said he hated playing Sam. He likes the middle but would not mind playing Will. Bringing in Lauranitis would be a very smart decision for the Broncos.

[SR]

DJ said he hated playing Sam. He likes the middle but would not mind playing Will. Bringing in Lauranitis would be a very smart decision for the Broncos.

Ah. I must have gotten mixed up. Well if he doesn't mind playing Will, see if we could draft a Mike.

[fcspikeit]

I have mixed feelings about this,,,,

On one hand I feel the Broncos should always play to win no matter their record. But that same mentality says that winning this year is losing next year. Would it be worth trading 2 wins this year for more wins next year?

Think on this,,

When playoff teams have nothing to play for most everyone says, the games mean nothing so they should sit their starters for the future, just except losing because of the future. Even with the Pats who have the chance to do something that has never been done, most people think they should sit their starters.

But it is seen as terrible if a team plays the back ups in meaningless games to get better draft picks, which will also help the team out in the future.

So why the double standard? If you except a loss for the greater good it should be seen as the same.

I think the Pats have more to play for right now then the Broncos do. The funny thing is, the same people that say the Pat's should tank the last 2 games with their starters watching from the bench are the same people saying it is a disgrace to tank games to get better draft picks.

Before anyone says it, there is no guarantee any draft pick wont be a bust. But look at it this way, If we ended up with the 8th pick valued at 1,400 points, instead of the 15th valued at 1,050, we could always trade the 8th pick for the 15th and get a 3rd,(195) 4th, (72) 5th, 34.5 6th, 21.4 7th 8.6 to go with it. We might even be able to get the 2nd pick 430 if we threw in our 4th rounder.

1st round 8th pick - 1400 + 4th round 104th over all - 86 = 1486

1st round 15th pick - 1050 + 2th round 47th over all - 430 = 1480

That would give us 3 picks out of the first 47 instead of 2.

I am still on the fence, but it really does make sense to trade meaningless wins now for important wins in the future. I don't think we should throw the game because that is just wrong. But we do need to see what the backups bring this team. We should give our water boy a shot on the D-line :)

[Lonestar]

Lets just hope mikey dips into the DT playmaker well instead of MLB where wihile a playmaker it is hard to do when you buried by OGs that should have been handled by the DLine..

LB just does not slove this teams issues..

If Al would have been playing this year we would still sucked.

[fcspikeit]

Lets just hope mikey dips into the DT playmaker well instead of MLB where wihile a playmaker it is hard to do when you buried by OGs that should have been handled by the DLine..

LB just does not slove this teams issues..

If Al would have been playing this year we would still sucked.

I couldn't agree more!

That is another good thing about getting a top 10 pick. We could always trade up to get Glenn Dorsey thought to go 3rd 2200 or Sedrick Ellis thought to go 4th 1800 :)

Either would be a stretch but with the 1st and 2nd (8th & 40th) 1400 + 500 = 1900 we would be in the park

[Mike]

I couldn't agree more!

That is another good thing about getting a top 10 pick. We could always trade up to get the best DT in the draft :)

I agree that DT should be the priority this offseason. I am not a draft expert...but I don't think that they can move up far enough to pick Dorsey...nor do I think that they should simply because of the price tag that comes with it.

From what I hear Sedrik Ellis might be reachable where Denver ends up (if Denver loses last 2 games) or if not by moving up...but $$ still becomes an issue with top 10 picks.

[fcspikeit]

I agree that DT should be the priority this offseason. I am not a draft expert...but I don't think that they can move up far enough to pick Dorsey...nor do I think that they should simply because of the price tag that comes with it.

From what I hear Sedrik Ellis might be reachable where Denver ends up (if Denver loses last 2 games) or if not by moving up...but $$ still becomes an issue with top 10 picks.


I don't follow the draft as close as some, Ellis might fall to 8 - 12 ? It really all depends on the direction those picking want to go. It just seems no matter the team they can always use another stud D-lineman. I'm sure a lot will change from now to draft day, I just hope Shanahan drafts a DT with the first pick. LB would be my second choice but watch him draft a RB or WR in the first round :eek:

[Fan in Exile]

That's not true. Getting a stud middle linebacker would be like bringing a healthy Al Wilson back. Gold is likely going to be released and who better to replace him than DJ Williams, who performed at a near rookie of the year level at the weak side position in his first year? Williams wouldn't have to make much of an adjustment and it would be the last one he would have to make.

Sure it is. You would be spending a lot of money for what is at best a marginal upgrade. I'm not saying that we couldn't do better than D.J. but you don't upgrade a solid player when you've got the glaring holes that we do. You would be putting too much money in the wrong spot. A stud DT would make a far greater impact for the money that we are going to have to spend.

Picking a middle linebacker in the draft would tie up too much money and too many draft picks when we need them for the line.

Keep in mind it's also not just about the individual plays made on the field. We need someone to be a captain on this defense and that naturally falls to the Middle Linebacker. if we bring in a rookie now whatever kind of stud he might be we lose the progress D.J. has already made. You can't just expect a rookie to come and be able to fill that spot, tons better than D.J. is doing it. We need consistency and continuity.

I hated when we were getting those 12 men on the field penalties and couldn't get the defense lined up. I don't want to go back to that.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

It's a nice "dreamer" article, but it lacks real football perspective.

Sure, let's throw DJ back to WILL and draft Laurinaitis. Let's have DJ playing WILL in a scheme that demands the most coverage out of either spot(s) from the position(s), which is coincidentally DJ's weakest link. Nah, not necessarily the smartest idea, couple with that is the fact Krieger probably has never even seen Laurinaitis play. Not only that, but DJ will be looking to get an extension, Gold still has as decent sized contract, and getting L that high would mean even more concentration of salary at one position. That's what the Broncos also have been trying to get rid of with dumping Wilson, and it's assumable Gold at the end of the year.

We need to focus on the trenches. All the studs at linebacker won't help in the world if the people in front of them cannot do their jobs.

[broncofanatic1987]

Lets just hope mikey dips into the DT playmaker well instead of MLB where wihile a playmaker it is hard to do when you buried by OGs that should have been handled by the DLine..

LB just does not slove this teams issues..

If Al would have been playing this year we would still sucked.

I'm not sold on needing a DT in the first round over a stud middle linebacker. We might have been better off this year if the Broncos had stuck with Bates' usual preference for big DTs in the draft this year. There was a DT from Utah that was about 6'4" 340 lbs that might have been a better fit for Bates' system than Marcus Thomas. He went undrafted and was signed by Miami, but he definitely should have been someone the Broncos considered. Thomas might prove to be something special, but the Broncos gave up two picks in 2007 and a 2008 3rd round pick for him and he hasn't done a whole lot to justify it so far. I remember reading at least one scouting report that indicated Thomas was not a fit for Bates' scheme. The solution to our problems at DT could very well be in the mid to late rounds of the draft.

I'm all for getting a stud linebacker in the first round. Lauranitis in the middle and DJ back on the weak side sounds great to me. I don't mean to sound like all the DJ lovers that were scheming and conniving ways to get rid of Ian Gold just to get DJ moved back to the weak side, but I've accepted the likelihood that Gold is going to be released at the end of this season.

[silkamilkamonico]

If Denver asks DJ to move to WILL, IMHO we will lose him to free agency, which would be very unfortunate.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

If Denver asks DJ to move to WILL, IMHO we will lose him to free agency, which would be very unfortunate.

I just wonder if DJ was ever satisfied being in Denver, growing up a Raiders fan and all. . .

[broncofanatic1987]

Sure it is. You would be spending a lot of money for what is at best a marginal upgrade. I'm not saying that we couldn't do better than D.J. but you don't upgrade a solid player when you've got the glaring holes that we do. You would be putting too much money in the wrong spot. A stud DT would make a far greater impact for the money that we are going to have to spend.

Picking a middle linebacker in the draft would tie up too much money and too many draft picks when we need them for the line.

Keep in mind it's also not just about the individual plays made on the field. We need someone to be a captain on this defense and that naturally falls to the Middle Linebacker. if we bring in a rookie now whatever kind of stud he might be we lose the progress D.J. has already made. You can't just expect a rookie to come and be able to fill that spot, tons better than D.J. is doing it. We need consistency and continuity.

I hated when we were getting those 12 men on the field penalties and couldn't get the defense lined up. I don't want to go back to that.

I don't care about the money. I'm a fan, not the GM. I just want them to do what ever will make the team better. If that means drafting Laurinaitis in the first round, that's fine. As far as the draft pick goes, you're only using one to get Laurinaitis if the Broncos lose their last two games, maybe even if they split the last two games. I don't want them to move up in the first round to get anyone. For all we know, they made a mistake by moving up to get Moss this year. I don't recall anyone being a real threat to take him before our pick.

If the Broncos draft Laurinaitis, he will have to earn his role as the defensive leader just like everyone else. Being able to position the defense and make the defensive calls will be something that he will have to demonstrate in training camp and pre season before he takes over as the starter. Chances are that Gold will be released. Someone has to fill that spot. Why not Laurinaitis or some other rookie stud that could eventually be the starting MLB so DJ can move back to WLB where he can be a play maker.

[broncofanatic1987]

If Denver asks DJ to move to WILL, IMHO we will lose him to free agency, which would be very unfortunate.

That is unlikely. If they move him back to Sam, they will probably lose him to FA. He indicated in a recent article that he would be willing to play Will but doesn't want to play Sam for anybody.

[dogfish]

It's a nice "dreamer" article, but it lacks real football perspective.

Sure, let's throw DJ back to WILL and draft Laurinaitis. Let's have DJ playing WILL in a scheme that demands the most coverage out of either spot(s) from the position(s), which is coincidentally DJ's weakest link. Nah, not necessarily the smartest idea, couple with that is the fact Krieger probably has never even seen Laurinaitis play. Not only that, but DJ will be looking to get an extension, Gold still has as decent sized contract, and getting L that high would mean even more concentration of salary at one position. That's what the Broncos also have been trying to get rid of with dumping Wilson, and it's assumable Gold at the end of the year.

We need to focus on the trenches. All the studs at linebacker won't help in the world if the people in front of them cannot do their jobs.


i actually think dj made some strides in coverage this year. . . maybe i'm wrong, but IMO gold is as good as gone. . . we'll take a cap hit for releasing him, but we may be able to soften the blow a bit by signing dj to an extension that turns some of his current salary into a pro-rated signing bonus. . .

in regards to lauranitis, i have seen him play quite a bit, and i think he's going to make an excellent pro-- he actually reminds me quite a bit of a bigger al wilson, and he sheds blocks better than wilson did at this point in his career. . . lauranitis is exactly the kind of aggressive run stopper we need in the middle, a guy who comes downhill fast and brings bad intentions with him. . . he occasionally over-runs plays, but he has sound instincts, and has some explosiveness as a hitter. . . i question his coverage instincts a bit, but he has fantastic range and athleticism for a guy his size, so the potential for growth in that area is definitely there. . . he plays with intensity and has an excellent work ethic-- he's had great coaching at a program that has produced quite a few good NFL pros recently, especially on the defensive side of the ball. . . i think he'll step into a leadership role right away. . . his ball skills are pretty average, and he may never be a serious turnover guy, but he has shown some ability to time his blitzes. . . he's a prototypical NFL MIKE, exactly the kind of nasty run defender we need. . .

did you see this report from PFW a few weeks ago?


Sources suggest it would take the doors caving in the rest of the way for highly regarded defensive coordinator Jim Bates to lose his job after just one year in Denver, disastrous as it has been with the Broncos ranking 25th in yards allowed and 30th in points. Head coach Mike Shanahan is expected to show patience with the hand-picked Bates, who received acclaim for his previous work in Miami and Green Bay. But that doesn’t mean there won’t be some personnel turnover on the defensive side of the ball, perhaps plenty of it, especially in the front seven. Although money figures to be short in the offseason, the Broncos will be in the market for a space-eating defensive tackle who isn’t as limited as and plays harder than Sam Adams, as well as a middle linebacker who can hold up better vs. the run and allow D.J. Williams to move to the weak side, where scouts say his athleticism and speed would be put to better use. WLB Ian Gold’s play has dropped off significantly this season in Bates’ new scheme, and his days in Denver would appear to be up.

you know that i view offensive and defensive tackle as our two biggest priorities of the offseason, with linebacker coming in third, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. . . i'd be delighted to sign jordan gross, and take okam and maybe someone like highsmith or wheeler if they're available in the 2nd. . . but i'd be just as happy to sign corey williams, draft lauranitis, and maybe find an OT in the 2nd. . .

of course, it's just as likely that we'll sign ted washington and draft a wide receiver in the 1st. . . . :crazy:



as far as the original premise of the article. . . i'm not so sure that it's going to matter who starts for us-- has kreiger seen our run efense this year?? we're playing against LT and adrian peterson in those last two games. . . . :eek:

[silkamilkamonico]

That is unlikely. If they move him back to Sam, they will probably lose him to FA. He indicated in a recent article that he would be willing to play Will but doesn't want to play Sam for anybody.

I would think it's more along the line of, "I've played 3 different positions in 4 years, do these guys even know what in the hell they are doing?"

[Broncos Mtnman]

I really hate all this "play for the draft" talk. Now we get it from Krieger?

History is full of busts drafted early and successes drafted late. It doesn't matter where you pick, as long as you pick correctly.

Now, it could be argued that Shanny hasn't been an overwhelming success as a draft guru. Let's argue that one.

But leave the "let's lose so we can draft higher" talk to the losers.

YOU PLAY TO WIN!! EVERY GAME!! EVERY TIME!!

[Lonestar]

I really hate all this "play for the draft" talk. Now we get it from Krieger?

History is full of busts drafted early and successes drafted late. It doesn't matter where you pick, as long as you pick correctly.

Now, it could be argued that Shanny hasn't been an overwhelming success as a draft guru. Let's argue that one.

But leave the "let's lose so we can draft higher" talk to the losers.

YOU PLAY TO WIN!! EVERY GAME!! EVERY TIME!!



They are!!!!!!! leaving it to the losers.

How many newbies (not starters) do you think we will see in the next two games..


Your also correct mikeys DAFTING record except the last two years as been for Crap overall.

But the law of averages seem to have turned..

I hear they found Mel Kipers Draft books and ratings guide under Mikeys pillow, last year.... Hmmmmmm ;)

[broncosfanscott]

It sure is an interesting situation. I would love to see the Broncos move up a few spots in the draft, however I would totally love to see them march into Qualcomm and knock off the Chargers. Whatever happen will happen and we'll just have to wait and see.

[Nomad]

It sure is an interesting situation. I would love to see the Broncos move up a few spots in the draft, however I would totally love to see them march into Qualcomm and knock off the Chargers. Whatever happen will happen and we'll just have to wait and see.

I would love to see the BRONCOS knock off the Chargers as well.

[Watchthemiddle]

DJ is and will become a future stud MLB in this league.

That said, if we could draft another stud that owns the position of MLB and move DJ back to WILL where he owns that position, our defense would make a great move..IMO.

I have always been a fan over stud LB's...(thus my screen name). THis D has focused on LB's for years and AL was the center point. We can do that again with having a stud back at MLB.

At any rate....no matter what we do in the draft I thinks its clear our needs. Defense, defense, defense.

We must ask ourselves...at what position would someone make the bigger impact? MLB could be immediate. DT, could take a year or two. Just my thougths.

[fcspikeit]

I really hate all this "play for the draft" talk. Now we get it from Krieger?

History is full of busts drafted early and successes drafted late. It doesn't matter where you pick, as long as you pick correctly.

Now, it could be argued that Shanny hasn't been an overwhelming success as a draft guru. Let's argue that one.

But leave the "let's lose so we can draft higher" talk to the losers.

YOU PLAY TO WIN!! EVERY GAME!! EVERY TIME!!

I feel no matter who we have in there we should try and win!

Do you believe every team should "PLAY TO WIN!! EVERY GAME!! EVERY TIME!!" Do you also agree that all the teams that have everything wrapped up should play their starters to give theirself the best chance to win every game?

[Bronco4ever]

I just wonder if DJ was ever satisfied being in Denver, growing up a Raiders fan and all. . .

True story. I was at the Chefs game in Denver this year and I went to the entry way where the players come out for warm ups. My dad and I start talking to this lady and she informs us she is DJ's mom. I was speechless for a few minutes after learning this. We talked for about 45 minutes about DJ, the Broncos, and football in general. She was a really cool lady. Anyway, point of the story is that Sherri (DJ's mom) seemed pretty optimistic about him staying in Denver. It sounds like his family really enjoys the area, so IMO, I'd be surprised if he decided to pack his bags and move else where.

[Bronco4ever]

I really hate all this "play for the draft" talk. Now we get it from Krieger?

History is full of busts drafted early and successes drafted late. It doesn't matter where you pick, as long as you pick correctly.

Now, it could be argued that Shanny hasn't been an overwhelming success as a draft guru. Let's argue that one.

But leave the "let's lose so we can draft higher" talk to the losers.

YOU PLAY TO WIN!! EVERY GAME!! EVERY TIME!!

I whole heartedly agree. If you let a losing mentality enter your locker room, it will stay there. The more wins you can get in a season, the better. You want to establish a winning atmosphere at all costs. I'm not even sure as a fan you can want your team to lose. That is beyond stupid. If we win these last two games, I'll be happy as a little girl at a Justin Timberlake concert.

[Lonestar]

I whole heartedly agree. If you let a losing mentality enter your locker room, it will stay there. The more wins you can get in a season, the better. You want to establish a winning atmosphere at all costs. I'm not even sure as a fan you can want your team to lose. That is beyond stupid. If we win these last two games, I'll be happy as a little girl at a Justin Timberlake concert.

Yet mikey will most likely play a lot of folks that are not normal starters these last two games..

Under the guise of shaking up the squad and to see who are players and who are not in the picture for next year..

We all know that many non starters could be, in a heart beat with an injury, like what has happened to gold and Graham.

Graham is a keeper and unless he is totally disgusted in the play of this team will be around for as long as he can stomach it..

Now Gold is another story unless he takes a major cut in play and will play ST and be content to back up at LB he is toast IMO.. He is not a the prototypical LB for Bates closes but until he learns how to tackle he is totally over priced.

Make no illusion mikey will try to win the games, but backups will see extensive play in these games.. even if we get super human effort from what is left of the team, the likely hood of winning these to games is slim at best.. They both very good at stuff we are unable to defense against.. Run the ball and eat clock, and there defenses are most likely going to be overcome and stop us from scoring from inside the red zone..

Unless we can stop their RB's and get alot of long distance TD's 30 yards+ these games are losses.. Or Champ etal picks their QB's several times for scores..

[Requiem / The Dagda]

True story. I was at the Chefs game in Denver this year and I went to the entry way where the players come out for warm ups. My dad and I start talking to this lady and she informs us she is DJ's mom. I was speechless for a few minutes after learning this. We talked for about 45 minutes about DJ, the Broncos, and football in general. She was a really cool lady. Anyway, point of the story is that Sherri (DJ's mom) seemed pretty optimistic about him staying in Denver. It sounds like his family really enjoys the area, so IMO, I'd be surprised if he decided to pack his bags and move else where.

Thanks for the story man!

[silkamilkamonico]

It sounds like his family really enjoys the area, so IMO, I'd be surprised if he decided to pack his bags and move else where.

If it comes down to a business standpoint, and going elsewhere is in his best interest professionally, I think it's a no brainer that he leaves. He can always move back to Denver when his career is over.

[Bronco4ever]

If it comes down to a business standpoint, and going elsewhere is in his best interest professionally, I think it's a no brainer that he leaves. He can always move back to Denver when his career is over.

Well for what it's worth, she also told me he was very interested about re-signing here very soon. She tried to make it clear as possible that he wanted to come back. She was hinting that something may come about this off season, but knowing our front office, that might never happen. I guess we will have to stay tuned and find out in the coming months.

[Lonestar]

Well for what it's worth, she also told me he was very interested about re-signing here very soon. She tried to make it clear as possible that he wanted to come back. She was hinting that something may come about this off season, but knowing our front office, that might never happen. I guess we will have to stay tuned and find out in the coming months.


Unless they play the terry pierce card again he will be a bronco for a long time.. I think everyone is high on him or they would not have made the bold move they did this past year..

Unless he is stupid and wants a huge contract then he will be here.

[broncosfanscott]

True story. I was at the Chefs game in Denver this year and I went to the entry way where the players come out for warm ups. My dad and I start talking to this lady and she informs us she is DJ's mom. I was speechless for a few minutes after learning this. We talked for about 45 minutes about DJ, the Broncos, and football in general. She was a really cool lady. Anyway, point of the story is that Sherri (DJ's mom) seemed pretty optimistic about him staying in Denver. It sounds like his family really enjoys the area, so IMO, I'd be surprised if he decided to pack his bags and move else where.

That's a cool story. He has made improvements this year and I would like to see him stay here as well.

[Joel]

it's that INJURIES HAPPEN! And if, heaven forbid, anything happened to D.J., I'm not confident in Webster as our starting Mike; for that reason a quality Mike is a priority for me, just as it was last year before I even knew we'd lost Al Wilson and would be scrambling to find a replacement (a possibility I then viewed as a daunting hypothetical only to see it play out before my eyes in the off season). Back then my mantra was "we have no anchor at DT; we have NO depth at LB" and none of that has changed. So, yeah, since we're out of the playoffs I'd much prefer a 6-10 finish to a .500 finish.

The problem is the psychology of the people who actually make these kinds of decisions, and the pressure they're getting from all sides, pressure that only grows as losses mount. Shanny's had one, count 'em, ONE losing season as a head coach. Some people are already saying, have been saying since last year, that he's too old, too set in his ways, that, much as Dallas fans did with Tom Landry in the late '80s, the game has passed him by and it's time to put the future HoFer out to stud and get some new blood. Losing his last three games won't help matters there, or with Pat Bowlen.

But here's the thing: Last year we were 9-7, had a better Conference record than all the bubble teams, but a worse Division record than the Chiefs. That meant that, under current NFL tiebreak procedures, the ONLY way we could get in was for the Chiefs to be the #5 seed; if ANYONE had a better overall record than them the fact we had more Conference wins than the Jags, Bengals, Jets, Titans et alia didn't mean jack. So, when we lost to SF and KC beat the Jags, we became the best team in the League to NOT make the playoffs, which, come Draft Day '07, meant every non-playoff team picked, then us, then all the playoff teams. So we got to bundle late first day picks to just have a SHOT at a quality first round pick; that particular pick (Jarvis Moss) played a handful of downs in a handful of games before a season ending injury, and we only had three more picks in the '07 draft (virtually all of which, IMHO, have performed better than Moss; I can't fault him for his injury, but the injury bug was the big knock on him out of college, and it didn't take long to resurface).

So, for my money, yeah, let the Bolts and Vikes have their meaningless One and Done playoff trip and draft a good NT and MLB next season (in that order, IMHO). I don't really like the idea of D.J. playing a different spot every year ( "hmmm, we need a punter with Todd gone; D.J.'s never punted, right...?" ) but by the same token I don't really expect many NCAA stars to come into the NFL, particularly a scheme like Bates' that demands so much of MLBs, and make a flawless transition. More likely we'd see D.J. remain our starting Mike and continue to improve, while the new draft pick would battle it out for Sam or Will duties. Before long we'd have a quality starting Mike AND a quality starting Sam who'd could move to Mike with no difficulty in the event of an injury to the starter. And for the record, I don't anticipate Ian Gold going anywhere for the next couple years, nor do I want him to do so. People like to dog on him, but he covers elite TEs and backs like Gonzalez, Gates and Clark better than anyone on the team (and I'm including Lynch and Fergy when I say that).

[Joel]

Yet mikey will most likely play a lot of folks that are not normal starters these last two games..

Under the guise of shaking up the squad and to see who are players and who are not in the picture for next year..

We all know that many non starters could be, in a heart beat with an injury, like what has happened to gold and Graham.

Graham is a keeper and unless he is totally disgusted in the play of this team will be around for as long as he can stomach it..

Now Gold is another story unless he takes a major cut in play and will play ST and be content to back up at LB he is toast IMO.. He is not a the prototypical LB for Bates closes but until he learns how to tackle he is totally over priced.

Make no illusion mikey will try to win the games, but backups will see extensive play in these games.. even if we get super human effort from what is left of the team, the likely hood of winning these to games is slim at best.. They both very good at stuff we are unable to defense against.. Run the ball and eat clock, and there defenses are most likely going to be overcome and stop us from scoring from inside the red zone..

Unless we can stop their RB's and get alot of long distance TD's 30 yards+ these games are losses.. Or Champ etal picks their QB's several times for scores..
Louis Green impress you that much, does he...? ;)

[Lonestar]

Louis Green impress you that much, does he...? ;)
Not sure where you got green out of my post..

But I think gold is normally a day late a dollar short the past couple of years..

He has a tough time shedding blocks and almost every tackle I can remember him making is either forcing someone out of bounds or dragging them down from behind..

While I have not studied him extensively and watched game tape like I have the past couple of years. But I can truthfully say I do not remember him taking a RB on one on one, heads up the past couple of years..

I could be totally out of school here but gold is not the player he was several years ago.. For his price tag and I may be off here a bit 2+ mill and year is way More than he should be earing IMHO.

Now I think that Windborn seems to be a player he is fast and unlike gold at 220 or so, in the 240 range.. the other LB that seemed to have future here was Holdman before he went on IR.

I also think that unless a stud MLB is available that DJ stays there for the foreseeable future. He is just to good an athlete to let go.

IF mikey can get his head out of his arse and get the DT/NT that this team has not had forever, then almost all of the spots next to and behind automatically gets MUCH better. Because they do not have to do his job first.

[BroncoJoe]

It's a catch-22 situation. Personally, I'd take a late round pick in return for a good season anyday. Plus, the cap $$ isn't nearly as much with the later picks.

That said, we haven't done much with the late round picks and trying to improve with free agency. Sinced we're in this situation, it'll be interesting to see how it pans out this year.

[Zweems56]

As per the title of the thread and the article.... You play to win the game. End post.

[Joel]

Not sure where you got green out of my post..
Mainly it came from not being able to see many games this season and the fact Green has been the perennial backup Will; if Winborn shows some potential to be a good starter, great, because whichever side is right about Gold, the sad truth he's played double digit seasons and won't be around forever.

But I think gold is normally a day late a dollar short the past couple of years..

He has a tough time shedding blocks and almost every tackle I can remember him making is either forcing someone out of bounds or dragging them down from behind..
Well, I don't expect much more from a 220 lb. Will on runs, but on the other hand that's not really his bread and butter.

While I have not studied him extensively and watched game tape like I have the past couple of years. But I can truthfully say I do not remember him taking a RB on one on one, heads up the past couple of years..
It's hard to do that and cover TEs at the same time. Especially when the TEs in question will be Gates and Gonzales for 25% of your games.


I could be totally out of school here but gold is not the player he was several years ago.. For his price tag and I may be off here a bit 2+ mill and year is way More than he should be earing IMHO.

Now I think that Windborn seems to be a player he is fast and unlike gold at 220 or so, in the 240 range.. the other LB that seemed to have future here was Holdman before he went on IR.
It's an open question whether Holdman will ever play again, unless there's been some reports on him that I've missed (which there very easily could be; I haven't done much this season other than work). Perhaps a contract renegotiation is in order for Gold (in Bowlens favor rather than his) but I still like his speed and experience in coverage better than anyone else I've seen with the exception of D.J. (who's spoken for), although, once again, I haven't seen our new Will at all.


I also think that unless a stud MLB is available that DJ stays there for the foreseeable future. He is just to good an athlete to let go.
I'm inclined to agree, but I suppose one good thing about it is if he DOES get moved back to Sam or Will there shouldn't be much transition. But right now D.J.'s our Mike by default, a position with which I'm really not comfortable since it leaves us one play (or car accident, or whatever) from having a HUGE gap in the dead center of our D.


IF mikey can get his head out of his arse and get the DT/NT that this team has not had forever, then almost all of the spots next to and behind automatically gets MUCH better. Because they do not have to do his job first.
I dunno; I always liked Pryce as a DT, but unfortunately he didn't. That really is the biggest problem with our D though, whatever the neophytes claim based on what they heard on last nights Sports Center. I wish our depth at LB was as good as our starters (who obviously aren't as good as last years starters) and Lynch and Fergies recurring injuries only highlight their age, but getting that NT rotation nailed down would solve a LOT of problems.

[Bronco4ever]

As per the title of the thread and the article.... You play to win the game. End post.

Herm Edwards agrees.

http://www.themightymjd.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/herm.jpg

[Bronco9798]

Herm Edwards agrees.

http://www.themightymjd.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/herm.jpg

And Herm does a great job! ha...Herm actually plays to stay in the game, just enough to lose it.

[Bronco4ever]

And Herm does a great job! ha...Herm actually plays to stay in the game, just enough to lose it.

Not that any of us are complaining. Shoot, if Herm runs the Chefs into the ground anymore than he already has, I'll say a job well done. BTW your boy Allen caught another TD today.