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10-07-2009, 11:03 PM
Pats Pulpit (http://www.patspulpit.com/), the Patriots counterpart to Mile High Report (http://www.milehighreport.com/), has a nice little article
on Josh McDaniels. Its author, who goes by the screen name MaPatsFan, is
extremely complimentary toward McDaniels and less so toward Pete Prisco and
other journalist wannabes.

Well, since it's on the front page there, I guess I can quote it:



Some initial thoughts on New England Patriots @ Denver Broncos

CBSSports' Pete Prisco, in a blog entry entitled, "McDaniels is the idiot", said:

He's the one who is in his first head job and he's considering making one of the dumbest decisions a coach can make. There are only so many good quarterbacks in this league and he's thinking about trading one away. Why is he getting a free pass here? He's the one who should be getting torched.

So both parties deserve some heat. But there's no doubt McDaniels is the one who deserves the most of it.

It was specifically related to the unceremonious exit of one Jay Cutler to the Chicago Bears, but look how it turned out? Is Josh McDaniels STILL an idiot? And where's the apology or maybe even a simple mea culpa? Not so with media types. Why, on earth, would they admit they're wrong. Need some more? Columnist Ari Horing of bleacherreport.com pens:

Who exactly do you think you are? You need to look in the mirror and realize that you're not Bill Belichick and frankly you’re just a rookie head coach who hasn’t proven a thing yet.

So you were the offensive coordinator for a great Patriots’ offense. So was Charlie Weiss, and I think we all know how he turned out. So you worked under arguably the greatest coach of all time in Bill Belichick. So did Romeo Crennel and Eric Mangini and we know how they turned out.

Superimposing Charlie Weiss' travails onto McDaniels is pure drivel; I'm not sure, on what planet, that logic passes muster. At any rate, hindsight is 20/20, but the amount of Josh McDaniels hate during the Jay Cutler whinefest was just plain ridiculous. McDaniels walked into Denver and started making changes, changes he'd learned from his mentor Bill Belichick. Belichick knows something about creating a winning organization, so it stands to reason, some of this mojo may have rubbed off on McD. We know it certainly didn't rub off on Eric Mangini, but Josh is actually smart.

Moving on... McDaniels started making changes because he wanted to create a culture of winning. Part of that culture was honesty. It backfired with his then silver spooned, first string baby of a quarterback, Jay Cutler. Agent Bus C(r)ook, PO'd Cutler was in the fourth year of a 6 year, $2 million/year contract, decided to stir the pot after seeing the kind of clams Matt Cassel was garnering on the open market. Rumors spread like wildfire that McD had talked trade to get Cassel to Denver and when Cutler heard about it, he threw a hissy fit. McDaniels, being the mature person that he was, basically explained to Jay that as an NFL player under contract, he was the property of the team and could be traded at any time. Apparently Bus C(r)ook didn't inform his toddler client of this little detail.

So, where am I going with this? Josh McDaniels was much maligned for doing what he's paid to do: create a winning organization. Now, to be perfectly honest, I'd like him to crash and burn against the Patriots. I want to see his old mentor absolutely school him on the game of football. Everyone else, he can beat.

All the pundits, all the talking heads are nowhere to be found. Everyone who said Josh McDaniels was in idiot or a moron has not written one...single...word to either apologize or retract what they previously said. Nothing. That's integrity for ya.

Ain't it funny how a 4-0 record shuts up the morons and idiots.

http://www.patspulpit.com/

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Day1BroncoFan
10-07-2009, 11:27 PM
Great article. Most of the idiots are being quiet.

Lonestar
10-08-2009, 12:47 AM
Great article. Most of the idiots are being quiet.



lots of folks here have been awfully quiet also..:rolleyes:

frenchfan
10-08-2009, 01:19 AM
Great article. Most of the idiots are being quiet.But expect them to wake up if Pats defeat us ;) :rolleyes:

OK, the Cutler's thing is debatable (though I still believe McD is not fully guilty... Cook was really involved in the process IMO)... I didn't like the move but I wasn't here to say "McD sucks and so on"...
No... I gave him his chance and wait for the season to make my opinion...
After all McD knows more about football that I would ever know in my whole life (and more :D)

Entering the season, I was only expecting that our team will be prepared, played with passion and see improvement in our character and the physical part of the game (I was sooooo tired to see how we were "tackling" last year). About our record, I had no great expectations because of our brutal schedule...
Look there... we are 4-0 and I can't see I'm disappointed by the way we are playing... Sure, our O is still a little shacky, but I see no reason to not improve there. We play like a team... Play with fire and passion... We are physical... adaptable (so I guess "smart).
Our D and ST have clearly improved since last season...
I know Orton is not a top 5 QB... But is he that bad as many people think he is? I don't know... I still questionning myself about that... I don't think so though and I sure hope he is not that bad... Just don't expect him to be Cutler-like... Elway-like... I think Orton knows it and McD too... But I think he can run McD's system well... Guess why McD traded with Bears?
And as far as DIlfer was able to win a SB, I really don't see any reason that could prevent Orton to not do it too in the same situation ;)

McD found the right guys for his organization... His draft wasn't so bad IMO (who can question taking 2 of the bests prospects is silly??? :confused: )... You can argue abour some trades within the draft, but you have to understand draft is like betting somehow... and you have to understand the whole plan IMO... Not for this year only, but the plan to build a winning franchise for years...
We took players in FA that are no "names" (remember Simeon Rice and so on?) but players... and players that could fit McD's (and Nolan) plan...

Just my 2 cents though... I don't think I'm expert enough to believe I know "the truth" ;) :D
But at least I'll sure be man enough to come back here and say "I was wrong" when I was.

Go Broncos
:defense:

gobroncsnv
10-08-2009, 07:51 AM
Just another log on the fire of "enjoying the ride so far..."

claymore
10-08-2009, 08:03 AM
Winning 2 games one by sheer luck, and one by good defense and a wonderful almost miracle run by BM doesn't make him a genius.

Trading Cutler was retarded. It was a terrible move. That is a fact. Until he replaces Cutler with an upgrade at the position, I will always say it was a stupid move.

He is a good coach, and I like him, but it was a ridiculous move that I cant get behind no matter how many games he wins.

It is in the past, and I have forgiven him though.

camdisco24
10-08-2009, 08:34 AM
Im not so sure trading Cutler was a bad idea. But, none of us can say one way or the other because we simply dont know how we would be doing with Cutler.

I agree with everything in the article, except for the part where he wants us to lose this week! haha Other than that, he brought up some great points about McD.

Tned
10-08-2009, 09:01 AM
It certainly isn't journalism, but it is a 'decent' fan post.

Writing things like C(r)ook and "spooned, first string baby of a quarterback, Jay Cutler" show his complete lack of objectivity on the topic.

It should play well here, because most fans hate former players (those that are on other teams), and hate Cutler more than most.

It's much easier to rationalize the fact that we no longer have a guy consdered one of the best, if not the best, young QB in the league, by saying, "he didn't want to be here" or "he's a baby" or "he's not that good - he turns the ball over too much" or you fill in the ________.

The Broncos are winning, and McDaniels and Nolan and the rest of the coaching staff deserves a TON of credit, but that doesn't mean that how the Cutler thing was handled was right.

It may be impossible to ever know if it was a great decision or huge mistake. Over time, we come popular conclusions might be reached, but we still will never know "what could have been..." would the Broncos have been better or worse with Cutler.

Down the road, a few years from now:

If the Broncos are good, but can't get over the hump. Make it to the playoffs, but can't go deep, and the missing link appears to be QB, and at the same time Cutler is tearing it up in Chicago, then what we are going to constantly hear is how bad the trade was.

On the other hand, if Cutler turns out to be the next Jeff George, which most of the fans that 'now' hate him say, and Denver goes deep into the playoffs a few times, maybe goes to or even wins a SB, then people will talk about how smart McDaniels was for getting rid of him.

The problem with the "see, I told you so" people on the forums, and this guy that wrote this fan blog post, there is nothing to back up the "see, I told you so". McDaniels is chewing Orton out on the sidelines multiple times per game, because the best thing you can say is that he isn't turning the ball over and giving the defense a chance to win the game. Like McDaniels said in the 'wired' clips, "my bad doesn't cut it anymore" in regards to Orton's play.

As to getting credit, I have seen a number of talking heads being very complimentary of McDaniels and many even saying that they were wrong about him (in terms of things they said in the off season).

Bottom line, the blog entry had a very one sided slant.

topscribe
10-08-2009, 09:56 AM
Winning 2 games one by sheer luck, and one by good defense and a wonderful almost miracle run by BM doesn't make him a genius.

Trading Cutler was retarded. It was a terrible move. That is a fact. Until he replaces Cutler with an upgrade at the position, I will always say it was a stupid move.

He is a good coach, and I like him, but it was a ridiculous move that I cant get behind no matter how many games he wins.

It is in the past, and I have forgiven him though.

In all fairness, could we be laying just a little too much responsibility for the
trade at McDaniels' feet? Remember, it was Bowlen, not McDaniels, who
announced that Cutler was to be traded. McDaniels actually insisted up to
that point that "Cutler is my quarterback."

Bowlen is the one who initially fired Shanahan, so he was ultimately
responsible for the exit of Cutler's QB coach, whom Cutler said he wanted
retained. It was Bowlen's calls Cutler didn't return. I can see a scenario such
as:

McDaniels: "Mr. Bowlen, I don't want to trade Cutler."
Bowlen: "He's gone. this is my team. No one snubs my calls, not even you."

Maybe that isn't the case. But the initial news came out of Bowlen's office,
not McDaniels'


It certainly isn't journalism, but it is a 'decent' fan post.

Writing things like C(r)ook and "spooned, first string baby of a quarterback, Jay Cutler" show his complete lack of objectivity on the topic.

It should play well here, because most fans hate former players (those that are on other teams), and hate Cutler more than most.

It's much easier to rationalize the fact that we no longer have a guy consdered one of the best, if not the best, young QB in the league, by saying, "he didn't want to be here" or "he's a baby" or "he's not that good - he turns the ball over too much" or you fill in the ________.

The Broncos are winning, and McDaniels and Nolan and the rest of the coaching staff deserves a TON of credit, but that doesn't mean that how the Cutler thing was handled was right.

It may be impossible to ever know if it was a great decision or huge mistake. Over time, we come popular conclusions might be reached, but we still will never know "what could have been..." would the Broncos have been better or worse with Cutler.

Down the road, a few years from now:

If the Broncos are good, but can't get over the hump. Make it to the playoffs, but can't go deep, and the missing link appears to be QB, and at the same time Cutler is tearing it up in Chicago, then what we are going to constantly hear is how bad the trade was.

On the other hand, if Cutler turns out to be the next Jeff George, which most of the fans that 'now' hate him say, and Denver goes deep into the playoffs a few times, maybe goes to or even wins a SB, then people will talk about how smart McDaniels was for getting rid of him.

The problem with the "see, I told you so" people on the forums, and this guy that wrote this fan blog post, there is nothing to back up the "see, I told you so". McDaniels is chewing Orton out on the sidelines multiple times per game, because the best thing you can say is that he isn't turning the ball over and giving the defense a chance to win the game. Like McDaniels said in the 'wired' clips, "my bad doesn't cut it anymore" in regards to Orton's play.

As to getting credit, I have seen a number of talking heads being very complimentary of McDaniels and many even saying that they were wrong about him (in terms of things they said in the off season).

Bottom line, the blog entry had a very one sided slant.

Some good points. As you mentioned, true journalism would not include such
remarks and opinions as we read here. However, it is important to remember
that this is not the intent of those boards. As you alluded, they are fans
blogging to other fans. They readily admit to bias, with no apology. In that
regard, it is kind of refreshing because it is so unrestrained. And it is still
newsworthy in its own right.

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BigSarge87
10-08-2009, 10:33 AM
In all fairness, could we be laying just a little too much responsibility for the
trade at McDaniels' feet? Remember, it was Bowlen, not McDaniels, who
announced that Cutler was to be traded. McDaniels actually insisted up to
that point that "Cutler is my quarterback."

Bowlen is the one who initially fired Shanahan, so he was ultimately
responsible for the exit of Cutler's QB coach, whom Cutler said he wanted
retained. It was Bowlen's calls Cutler didn't return. I can see a scenario such
as:

McDaniels: "Mr. Bowlen, I don't want to trade Cutler."
Bowlen: "He's gone. this is my team. No one snubs my calls, not even you."

Maybe that isn't the case. But the initial news came out of Bowlen's office,
not McDaniels'


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I agree completely. McD has taken ALL of the blame for Cutler going to Chicago.

I still haven't seen anything anywhere that says that McDaniels WANTED Jay out of Denver. He simply wouldn't promise Jay that he wouldn't entertain trade offers if it benefitted the team.

I still think McD had every intention of making 'the player' come to camp and be the quarterback.

IMO, Bowlen made the call on Cutler when he didn't return his calls and told McD and Xanders to make it happen.

It's absolutely ignorant to think that McD thought Kyle Orton was better than Jay Cutler.

Softskull
10-08-2009, 10:41 AM
Bottom line, the blog entry had a very one sided slant.

I couldn't agree more. The arguments against McDaniels were based mostly on the Cutler trade and the questionable draft moves. Most felt comfortable with McDaniels ability to call X's and O's. He's proven to competent at calling the offense and hiring the best defensive Coordinator available.

We have an incredible defense this year. Or offense is mediocre at best right now. That doesn’t necessarily make the Cutler trade good/bad nor does it speak to the possible reach made for Al Smith. Neither event has fully played out yet, nor will it for several years.

I don’t like the fact that McDaniels is suddenly given a free pass (honest, smart mature) and all the offseason problems are someone else’s issues. The event with Cutler didn’t happen in a vacuum. The “team” QB that stayed in Denver studying with Shanahan or working out with his receivers in the offseason, is now the villain. He’s still making the 2 million in Chicago, so he clearly wasn’t pushing for an instant contract as suggested. This article is based on emotion, not logic.

Softskull
10-08-2009, 10:48 AM
It's absolutely ignorant to think that McD thought Kyle Orton was better than Jay Cutler.

It was ignorant to think that Cassel was better than Jay Cutler too

claymore
10-08-2009, 11:02 AM
In all fairness, could we be laying just a little too much responsibility for the
trade at McDaniels' feet? Remember, it was Bowlen, not McDaniels, who
announced that Cutler was to be traded. McDaniels actually insisted up to
that point that "Cutler is my quarterback."

Bowlen is the one who initially fired Shanahan, so he was ultimately
responsible for the exit of Cutler's QB coach, whom Cutler said he wanted
retained. It was Bowlen's calls Cutler didn't return. I can see a scenario such
as:

McDaniels: "Mr. Bowlen, I don't want to trade Cutler."
Bowlen: "He's gone. this is my team. No one snubs my calls, not even you."

Maybe that isn't the case. But the initial news came out of Bowlen's office,
not McDaniels'
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He gets the credit for winning. He gets the credit for screwing up the Cutler debacle.

Thats the way it works.

Bronco Warrior
10-08-2009, 11:21 AM
It is very hard to be passionate about a team and then write about it..trust me I know. One of the reasons I get half crazy on here is because I love me some Broncos! I'm that guy that cringes when a guy get hit 0on a Game broadcast becuase I just had a flashback. Having said that Opinions and Passions are not journalism like Tned said!
Very little sports reporting is Honest Analysis anymore.

T.K.O.
10-08-2009, 11:54 AM
op ed....everybody is biased,who just told tom brady to take off his skirt?now thats personal! if tom wants to wear a skirt its toms business:D

topscribe
10-08-2009, 12:03 PM
He gets the credit for winning. He gets the credit for screwing up the Cutler debacle.

Thats the way it works.

That's silly, Clay. Winning is within the coach's control. The boss' orders are
beyond the coach's control. If the boss said to trade Cutler, bottom line (I'm
only speculating about that), then he has taken that issue out of the coach's
hands.

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Bronco Warrior
10-08-2009, 12:06 PM
The reason Cutler was the mopst pissed is because McDaniels lied to him about it, and was an ass to him. Josh has come along way since those days.

claymore
10-08-2009, 12:06 PM
That's silly, Clay. Winning is within the coach's control. The boss' orders are
beyond the coach's control. If the boss said to trade Cutler, bottom line (I'm
only speculating about that), then he has taken that issue out of the coach's
hands.

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He wouldnt have taken it out of the coachs hands if he thought the coach could handle the situation.

claymore
10-08-2009, 12:07 PM
The reason Cutler was the mopst pissed is because McDaniels lied to him about it, and was an ass to him. Josh has come along way since those days.

I think the situation humbled him.

topscribe
10-08-2009, 12:12 PM
He wouldnt have taken it out of the coachs hands if he thought the coach could handle the situation.

Clay, now you are speaking for Mr. Bowlen. The fact is, if the boss gives me a
direct order, it is his order. So then the consequences belong to him.

But we can speculate all day about it, and that will not bring around the truth.
So let's remember that what we are discussing is only speculation. We cannot
lay speculation to McDaniels' (or anybody else's) charge as if it were fact.

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Lancane
10-08-2009, 12:36 PM
It's fan drivel and it is that simple.

As to the whole Cutler debacle, I am not so pissed that the team traded Cutler as I am that they took the face of the franchise and arguably the heart of the team, traded him and then did not try and replace him. Quarterbacks are the faces and hearts of a franchise and it's fandom, that is why they are so protected by the officials and garner the biggest paychecks. After all what is San Diego without Rivers or New Orleans without Brees...same for Pittsburgh and Big Ben, Minnesota and Farve, Atlanta and Ryan, Jets and Sanchez, New England and Brady, Indianapolis and Manning, and yadda, yadda. Fact is that a team without that one key player behind center will do everything to get one...Baltimore was a defensive football team and knew they needed one and went out and got Flacco, same with Pittsburgh and Big Ben. In my honest opinion, I am more upset that McDaniels did so little to replace Cutler, because I do not think Cutler was the best quarterback for such a precision based offense as the 'Pro-Spread'...he is better suited for the Coryell, West Coast and possibly the Run & Gun.

The spread requires a quarterback that is smart and mobile, but more or less can make every throw deep and short, precise accuracy and mechanics and decent overall arm strength. Orton has barely been able to complete over half of his passes in a system which makes quarterbacks look like gods. McDaniels should have traded for Sanchez, IMHO. But that is over and done...but I don't believe that McDaniels is happy with Orton overall, his numbers reflect how poorous he has done in such a quarterback friendly system and not by lack of talent around him.

I think that is the biggest thing, not that the trade happened, but just that we got nothing in return. It will be interesting to see what happens after the season, Orton is a Restricted Free Agent and not worth starter money, so do they draft someone, start Simms or is Brandstater the guy...and whether or not it is Brandstater or a rookie, I think you will see a lot of the fandom that are being critical back them up and it quiet down. But if we keep Orton and lose Marshall and so forth, those opposed will only get louder.

Slick
10-08-2009, 12:39 PM
It was ignorant to think that Cassel was better than Jay Cutler too

Yeah, because I'm sure it was a straight up deal.

claymore
10-08-2009, 12:42 PM
Clay, now you are speaking for Mr. Bowlen. The fact is, if the boss gives me a
direct order, it is his order. So then the consequences belong to him.

But we can speculate all day about it, and that will not bring around the truth.
So let's remember that what we are discussing is only speculation. We cannot
lay speculation to McDaniels' (or anybody else's) charge as if it were fact.

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If Bowlen thought the situation was being handled well, and he got involved anyway, then he is an idiot.

Mike
10-08-2009, 12:42 PM
It's fan drivel and it is that simple.

As to the whole Cutler debacle, I am not so pissed that the team traded Cutler as I am that they took the face of the franchise and arguably the heart of the team, traded him and then did not try and replace him. Quarterbacks are the faces and hearts of a franchise and it's fandom, that is why they are so protected by the officials and garner the biggest paychecks.

Not all QBs are leaders, and certainly not all of them are the heart of the team.

This team has shown very little heart over the last several years...reflection of leadership? I attributed it to the coach, but if Cutler was "the heart of the team"...I must have been mistaken.

Slick
10-08-2009, 12:43 PM
It's fan drivel and it is that simple.

As to the whole Cutler debacle, I am not so pissed that the team traded Cutler as I am that they took the face of the franchise and arguably the heart of the team, traded him and then did not try and replace him. Quarterbacks are the faces and hearts of a franchise and it's fandom, that is why they are so protected by the officials and garner the biggest paychecks. After all what is San Diego without Rivers or New Orleans without Brees...same for Pittsburgh and Big Ben, Minnesota and Farve, Atlanta and Ryan, Jets and Sanchez, New England and Brady, Indianapolis and Manning, and yadda, yadda. Fact is that a team without that one key player behind center will do everything to get one...Baltimore was a defensive football team and knew they needed one and went out and got Flacco, same with Pittsburgh and Big Ben. In my honest opinion, I am more upset that McDaniels did so little to replace Cutler, because I do not think Cutler was the best quarterback for such a precision based offense as the 'Pro-Spread'...he is better suited for the Coryell, West Coast and possibly the Run & Gun.

The spread requires a quarterback that is smart and mobile, but more or less can make every throw deep and short, precise accuracy and mechanics and decent overall arm strength. Orton has barely been able to complete over half of his passes in a system which makes quarterbacks look like gods. McDaniels should have traded for Sanchez, IMHO. But that is over and done...but I don't believe that McDaniels is happy with Orton overall, his numbers reflect how poorous he has done in such a quarterback friendly system and not by lack of talent around him.

I think that is the biggest thing, not that the trade happened, but just that we got nothing in return. It will be interesting to see what happens after the season, Orton is a Restricted Free Agent and not worth starter money, so do they draft someone, start Simms or is Brandstater the guy...and whether or not it is Brandstater or a rookie, I think you will see a lot of the fandom that are being critical back them up and it quiet down. But if we keep Orton and lose Marshall and so forth, those opposed will only get louder.

Forgetting 2 first round draft picks Mr. Draft guru?

Obviously he thought those + a QB that he thought was serviceable was more important to the team at the time than appeasing the ego of his former disgruntled QB.

Lancane
10-08-2009, 12:59 PM
Not all QBs are leaders, and certainly not all of them are the heart of the team.

This team has shown very little heart over the last several years...reflection of leadership? I attributed it to the coach, but if Cutler was "the heart of the team"...I must have been mistaken.

It is rare for a coach to be the heart of a franchise, let alone the face. Lombardi, Cowher, Landry, Shula, Madden and possibly Belichick...but if he tried to trade Brady there would be a division in the fandom, of that I have no doubt. Coaches are rarely the heart and face of an organization in this day and age, because philosophies become stagnant, and change is inevitable at some point; look at Shanahan and Cowher, whether by choice or by decision. Was Elway the face and heart of Denver or was it Reeves and Shanahan? What about San Francisco...we all know the 'Coach' but Montana was the heart and face of the team. And that is how it usually is...Cutler was just beginning to become the heart, but he was the face but he was cut early from being that 'key' to the organization IMHO. But it will not be Orton, and the fandom is divided over it...so in a way, McDaniels did cut out the heart of this team and the face in the opinions of many in the fandom...whether you agree or not.

My issue is when you do that, it needs to be replaced immediatley.

Slick
10-08-2009, 01:03 PM
It is rare for a coach to be the heart of a franchise, let alone the face. Lombardi, Cowher, Landry, Shula, Madden and possibly Belichick...but if he tried to trade Brady there would be a division in the fandom, of that I have no doubt. Coaches are rarely the heart and face of an organization in this day and age, because philosophies become stagnant, and change is inevitable at some point; look at Shanahan and Cowher, whether by choice or by decision. Was Elway the face and heart of Denver or was it Reeves and Shanahan? What about San Francisco...we all know the 'Coach' but Montana was the heart and face of the team. And that is how it usually is...Cutler was just beginning to become the heart, but he was the face but he was cut early from being that 'key' to the organization IMHO. But it will not be Orton, and the fandom is divided over it...so in a way, McDaniels did cut out the heart of this team and the face in the opinions of many in the fandom...whether you agree or not.

My issue is when you do that, it needs to be replaced immediatley.

I think he was trying to instill the team concept. He shook things up. This team needed that. I do see your point however. Who knows what the future holds?

Tned-Mobile
10-08-2009, 01:04 PM
It is rare for a coach to be the heart of a franchise, let alone the face. Lombardi, Cowher, Landry, Shula, Madden and possibly Belichick...but if he tried to trade Brady there would be a division in the fandom, of that I have no doubt. Coaches are rarely the heart and face of an organization in this day and age, because philosophies become stagnant, and change is inevitable at some point; look at Shanahan and Cowher, whether by choice or by decision. Was Elway the face and heart of Denver or was it Reeves and Shanahan? What about San Francisco...we all know the 'Coach' but Montana was the heart and face of the team. And that is how it usually is...Cutler was just beginning to become the heart, but he was the face but he was cut early from being that 'key' to the organization IMHO. But it will not be Orton, and the fandom is divided over it...so in a way, McDaniels did cut out the heart of this team and the face in the opinions of many in the fandom...whether you agree or not.

My issue is when you do that, it needs to be replaced immediatley.

One problem with that, is it simply isn't easy to get franchise QBs. Typically, they are either the first one or two QBs taken or found by blind luck later in the draft.

Who was he going to be replaced with? Trading up for Sanchez would have been costly, and there is still no guarantees. The Broncos spent 7 or 8 years trying to find a replacement for Elway, before getting Cutler.

Softskull
10-08-2009, 01:05 PM
Yeah, because I'm sure it was a straight up deal.

Of course not, but we certainly would have had Cassel's $10 million contract as compared to Cutler's $2mil. What does that equal in free agents, etc. for this year.

Lancane
10-08-2009, 01:06 PM
Forgetting 2 first round draft picks Mr. Draft guru?

Obviously he thought those + a QB that he thought was serviceable was more important to the team at the time than appeasing the ego of his former disgruntled QB.

Oh, and both of those additions have been keys to victory haven't they? Get a grip, neither have been cornerstones to victory. I'm high on Moreno, but has he really made all that big of a difference? No...has Ayers? No. While I do think in time they will be productive, neither has made an immediate impact, and I hoped we drafted Moreno when we had Cutler, after we traded him...

Appeasing the ego, McDaniels lied to him and to the fans, whether he has done well or not, he LIED to Cutler and the fans, personally that is insulting. But we grow and go on...but quit pinning this all on Cutler, most players would be pissed if the coach lied to them and pulled the same crap. It wasn't just Cutler, and that is something you and the other Anti-Cutlerites need to get straight.

Lancane
10-08-2009, 01:10 PM
I think he was trying to instill the team concept. He shook things up. This team needed that. I do see your point however. Who knows what the future holds?

I'm all about the team concept, and I have already stated many times that Cutler was not right for the system nor the philosophy...but he should have replaced him with someone that believes in it and gave the fandom that franchise figure, that heart we all hoped was Cutler...Our own Brady sort of speak.

Lancane
10-08-2009, 01:14 PM
One problem with that, is it simply isn't easy to get franchise QBs. Typically, they are either the first one or two QBs taken or found by blind luck later in the draft.

Who was he going to be replaced with? Trading up for Sanchez would have been costly, and there is still no guarantees. The Broncos spent 7 or 8 years trying to find a replacement for Elway, before getting Cutler.

True...but now we have no Cutler, we have Orton...who let's be honest is mediocre at best. And look, even with winning the fandom is divided, because the lack of that franchise quarterback. It will remain divided till we have one, we could win the Super Bowl and the fandom would still be divided, that is how important a franchise quarterback is in this league.

Mike
10-08-2009, 01:15 PM
It is rare for a coach to be the heart of a franchise, let alone the face. Lombardi, Cowher, Landry, Shula, Madden and possibly Belichick...but if he tried to trade Brady there would be a division in the fandom, of that I have no doubt. Coaches are rarely the heart and face of an organization in this day and age, because philosophies become stagnant, and change is inevitable at some point; look at Shanahan and Cowher, whether by choice or by decision. Was Elway the face and heart of Denver or was it Reeves and Shanahan? What about San Francisco...we all know the 'Coach' but Montana was the heart and face of the team. And that is how it usually is...Cutler was just beginning to become the heart, but he was the face but he was cut early from being that 'key' to the organization IMHO. But it will not be Orton, and the fandom is divided over it...so in a way, McDaniels did cut out the heart of this team and the face in the opinions of many in the fandom...whether you agree or not.

My issue is when you do that, it needs to be replaced immediatley.

Whether you agree or not, Cutler was not the heart of this team. Those other players were hearts of their team because they were leaders who rallied their teams and were tested through fire and experience. Cutler not so much. He might grow into it one day, but not even close right now. Denver has had no heart of the team...the last player that was that was Al Wilson. This team had very little identity, intensity, or leadership the past few years. It has had talented players, but no heart. Wilson and, heaven help me, Plummer played with those characteristics and were leaders of the team. You could tell that the players loved Plummer...that didn't transition to Cutler when he took over. No player stepped up when they left...which resulted in the teams we saw over the last few years.

The heart of the team doesn't have to be one player. The chemistry and passion on this team is world's different than it has been in years. They are playing as one and believing in one another. I think they will be just fine playing together for each other and the coach they believe in and trust.

Slick
10-08-2009, 01:20 PM
Oh, and both of those additions have been keys to victory haven't they? Get a grip, neither have been cornerstones to victory. I'm high on Moreno, but has he really made all that big of a difference? No...has Ayers? No. While I do think in time they will be productive, neither has made an immediate impact, and I hoped we drafted Moreno when we had Cutler, after we traded him...

Appeasing the ego, McDaniels lied to him and to the fans, whether he has done well or not, he LIED to Cutler and the fans, personally that is insulting. But we grow and go on...but quit pinning this all on Cutler, most players would be pissed if the coach lied to them and pulled the same crap. It wasn't just Cutler, and that is something you and the other Anti-Cutlerites need to get straight.

I'm glad you can aknowledge the fact that the players we got may develop into quality starters if not more. Who really knows at this point? I was just trying to point out that we got something more than just Orton out of the deal.

I'm not anti anything 'Cane. Please don't lump me in to that category. I'm just speculating, like we all have. ...and I've said many times how I would have liked to see how Cutler could have performed on this current team, with these coaches, and with this defense.

claymore
10-08-2009, 01:23 PM
I'm glad you can aknowledge the fact that the players we got may develop into quality starters if not more. Who really knows at this point? I was just trying to point out that we got something more than just Orton out of the deal.

I'm not anti anything 'Cane. Please don't lump me in to that category. I'm just speculating, like we all have. ...and I've said many times how I would have liked to see how Cutler could have performed on this current team, with these coaches, and with this defense.

Me too. I think the trade was a mistake in the fact that, this team might be very special right now had we not traded Cutler.

On the other hand, maybe the trial by fire shit made us what we are now.

Lancane
10-08-2009, 01:24 PM
Whether you agree or not, Cutler was not the heart of this team. Those other players were hearts of their team because they were leaders who rallied their teams and were tested through fire and experience. Cutler not so much. He might grow into it one day, but not even close right now. Denver has had no heart of the team...the last player that was that was Al Wilson. This team had very little identity, intensity, or leadership the past few years. It has had talented players, but no heart. Wilson and, heaven help me, Plummer played with those characteristics and were leaders of the team. You could tell that the players loved Plummer...that didn't transition to Cutler when he took over. No player stepped up when they left...which resulted in the teams we saw over the last few years.

The heart of the team doesn't have to be one player. The chemistry and passion on this team is world's different than it has been in years. They are playing as one and believing in one another. I think they will be just fine playing together for each other and the coach they believe in and trust.

Keep believing that...because there are over a dozen good coaches in the NFL, including Belichick who will tell you differently, whether or not a team believes in the 'team' philosophy, there is a heart of the team; Brady for example. Elway was not the only leader we had, he was the overall 'Heart and Face' of the team, even though we had Zimmerman, Sharpe, Atwater and other great leaders.

Mike
10-08-2009, 01:27 PM
Keep believing that...because there are over a dozen good coaches in the NFL, including Belichick who will tell you differently, whether or not a team believes in the 'team' philosophy, there is a heart of the team; Brady for example. Elway was not the only leader we had, he was the overall 'Heart and Face' of the team, even though we had Zimmerman, Sharpe, Atwater and other great leaders.

World of difference between Elway, Montana, Brady, Manning and Cutler.

As I said, the heart of a team isn't always the QB and it isn't soley the QB. This team has been heartless and leaderless for years. Cutler may be that guy one day, but he wasn't while he was here and he still isn't right now.

Lancane
10-08-2009, 01:32 PM
I'm glad you can aknowledge the fact that the players we got may develop into quality starters if not more. Who really knows at this point? I was just trying to point out that we got something more than just Orton out of the deal.

I'm not anti anything 'Cane. Please don't lump me in to that category. I'm just speculating, like we all have. ...and I've said many times how I would have liked to see how Cutler could have performed on this current team, with these coaches, and with this defense.

Well I was big on Ayers though I believe he fit the 4-3 philosophy more then the 3-4, and as I stated I think Moreno can be special. He will not be the next Thomlinson...but he could be the next Faulk IMHO. So I see the potential, just not at the cost of the offense. Cutler does not fit the system, I openly admit that, but we should have replaced him with someone the entire fandom or close to could have gotten behind, and Orton is not it.

Sorry for lumping you in with the others, but I get sick and tired of the retarded sentiment that Cutler did this, especially when I believe both sides are at fault...And I am not pissed or against him now that he is gone, I wish him the best. But to blame just him when the coach lied and then lied again is hard to swallow, especially when the lies were also to the fans. I think Cutler would have done well in the system, not great...he fits the west coast scheme too perfectly.

Hopefully Brandstater is the guy, or McDaniels plans to draft someone after this season...then I think the whole thing will be moot...you know?

Lancane
10-08-2009, 01:36 PM
World of difference between Elway, Montana, Brady, Manning and Cutler.

As I said, the heart of a team isn't always the QB and it isn't soley the QB. This team has been heartless and leaderless for years. Cutler may be that guy one day, but he wasn't while he was here and he still isn't right now.

I already said as much Mike, I said he was the 'face' and we hoped he was the 'heart' but we will never know, now he is the face of Chicago...but he is doing well to become the heart of that team. We need that, and I don't believe Cutler fit the scheme nor the philosophy of McDaniels', but we need someone who does or the fandom will remain divided, whether it's Brandstater or a rookie in this draft, we need that key figure that all of the fans or at least the majority can get behind.

Slick
10-08-2009, 01:42 PM
Well I was big on Ayers though I believe he fit the 4-3 philosophy more then the 3-4, and as I stated I think Moreno can be special. He will not be the next Thomlinson...but he could be the next Faulk IMHO. So I see the potential, just not at the cost of the offense. Cutler does not fit the system, I openly admit that, but we should have replaced him with someone the entire fandom or close to could have gotten behind, and Orton is not it.

Sorry for lumping you in with the others, but I get sick and tired of the retarded sentiment that Cutler did this, especially when I believe both sides are at fault...And I am not pissed or against him now that he is gone, I wish him the best. But to blame just him when the coach lied and then lied again is hard to swallow, especially when the lies were also to the fans. I think Cutler would have done well in the system, not great...he fits the west coast scheme too perfectly.

Hopefully Brandstater is the guy, or McDaniels plans to draft someone after this season...then I think the whole thing will be moot...you know?

You would think the winning would help us be able to move on. We are trying desperately.

I'm going to continue to blame Clay. He's an easy target.

Greatspirits
10-08-2009, 01:43 PM
Great article. Most of the idiots are being quiet.

Most of the idiots are still IDIOTS! :lol:

Lancane
10-08-2009, 01:49 PM
You would think the winning would help us be able to move on. We are trying desperately.

I'm going to continue to blame Clay. He's an easy target.

Winning is never a balm in situations like this...remember Plummer and the AFC Championship, or the seasons leading up to it? Look at Green Bay with Rogers and the Farve debacle and how some still feel about that. It is rare to see the 'Face' of an organization be traded or released; Montana, Farve and Cutler are the three that come to mind off the bat. But even winning will never silence the entirety of a fandom, we want our heroes...our Manning, Brady and so forth.

Mike
10-08-2009, 01:50 PM
Fans will get behind a winning team.

LRtagger
10-08-2009, 01:50 PM
Sweet another McDaniels/Cutler thread. I love these.

claymore
10-08-2009, 01:53 PM
You would think the winning would help us be able to move on. We are trying desperately.

I'm going to continue to blame Clay. He's an easy target.

I am all for winning. I hate losing. I will be over it when Orton is more consistent in his throws. And a third down conversion percentages go up.

Lancane
10-08-2009, 02:00 PM
I am all for winning. I hate losing. I will be over it when Orton is more consistent in his throws. And a third down conversion percentages go up.

Case and Point...

Fans want perfection, teams win more when balanced; Baltimore and Pittsburgh for years dominated defensively, yet...in the end they realized they needed an offense to win more then now and then. So what did they do? Went out and got franchise quarterbacks, now Pittsburgh has two championships and Baltimore will sooner rather then later win one if not more.

TXBRONC
10-08-2009, 02:53 PM
I'm all about the team concept, and I have already stated many times that Cutler was not right for the system nor the philosophy...but he should have replaced him with someone that believes in it and gave the fandom that franchise figure, that heart we all hoped was Cutler...Our own Brady sort of speak.

Who could McDaniels gotten that would have been able to do that?

NightTrainLayne
10-08-2009, 03:02 PM
I am all for winning. I hate losing. I will be over it when Orton is more consistent in his throws. And a third down conversion percentages go up.

I'm pretty sure that someone posted Orton at the top of third-down QB rating.

NightTrainLayne
10-08-2009, 03:04 PM
Through week 4.....

FOURTH QUARTER PASSING LEADERS

NAME ATT COM C% YDS YPA TD TD% LG INT IN% RAT
Orton, DEN 23 17 73.9 362 15.74 2 8.7 87t 0 0.0 144.7
P. Manning, IND 26 19 73.1 263 10.12 1 3.8 49 0 0.0 117.9
Croyle, KAN 14 8 57.1 127 9.07 1 7.1 50 0 0.0 111.3
Flacco, BAL 36 23 63.9 333 9.25 3 8.3 72t 1 2.8 110.1
P. Rivers, SND 43 27 62.8 426 9.91 3 7.0 55 1 2.3 109.3
Brady, NWE 50 31 62.0 322 6.44 3 6.0 36t 0 0.0 100.6


THIRD DOWN PASSING LEADERS

NAME ATT COM C% YDS YPA TD TD% LG INT IN% RAT
Orton, DEN 35 21 60.0 255 7.29 2 5.7 37 0 0.0 101.5
Flacco, BAL 42 28 66.7 312 7.43 4 9.5 31t 2 4.8 100.5
Schaub, HOU 34 20 58.8 211 6.21 3 8.8 22 1 2.9 94.1
Pennington, MIA 23 16 69.6 177 7.70 0 0.0 21 0 0.0 92.1
Brady, NWE 41 23 56.1 236 5.76 2 4.9 36t 0 0.0 89.1
P. Manning, IND 34 26 76.5 267 7.85 0 0.0 39 1 2.9 86.3

Tned-Mobile
10-08-2009, 03:07 PM
I'm pretty sure that someone posted Orton at the top of third-down QB rating.

Even though his completion percentage was horrible, prior to the Cowboys game, his 4th down passer rating was something like 140 or close to it (based on one of the NFL shows I saw leading up to the Cowboy game - I haven't verified it by checking his stats).

Assuming that was correct, the Dallas game couldn't have hurt his 4th quarter rating much. Now, take it with a grain of salt, as plays like the immaculate deflection and now the Marshall run are going to greatly impact his 4th quarter QB rating in the short term, while being averaged out over the whole season.

While there is no doubt Orton needs to up his game, but right now he isn't making the bad plays that cost the team points, and he is making enough plays to score the points necessary to win. For that to continue to be effective, our defense will have to continue giving up 10 points or less, which isn't going to happen every week, which means Orton and the offense (it's not just him) need to elevate their game.

Tned-Mobile
10-08-2009, 03:08 PM
Through week 4.....

FOURTH QUARTER PASSING LEADERS

NAME ATT COM C% YDS YPA TD TD% LG INT IN% RAT
Orton, DEN 23 17 73.9 362 15.74 2 8.7 87t 0 0.0 144.7
P. Manning, IND 26 19 73.1 263 10.12 1 3.8 49 0 0.0 117.9
Croyle, KAN 14 8 57.1 127 9.07 1 7.1 50 0 0.0 111.3
Flacco, BAL 36 23 63.9 333 9.25 3 8.3 72t 1 2.8 110.1
P. Rivers, SND 43 27 62.8 426 9.91 3 7.0 55 1 2.3 109.3
Brady, NWE 50 31 62.0 322 6.44 3 6.0 36t 0 0.0 100.6


THIRD DOWN PASSING LEADERS

NAME ATT COM C% YDS YPA TD TD% LG INT IN% RAT
Orton, DEN 35 21 60.0 255 7.29 2 5.7 37 0 0.0 101.5
Flacco, BAL 42 28 66.7 312 7.43 4 9.5 31t 2 4.8 100.5
Schaub, HOU 34 20 58.8 211 6.21 3 8.8 22 1 2.9 94.1
Pennington, MIA 23 16 69.6 177 7.70 0 0.0 21 0 0.0 92.1
Brady, NWE 41 23 56.1 236 5.76 2 4.9 36t 0 0.0 89.1
P. Manning, IND 34 26 76.5 267 7.85 0 0.0 39 1 2.9 86.3

Damn you, as I was posting my long winded reply, talking about the 4th quarter passer rating, you go an slip in the actual stats :mad:. ;)

NightTrainLayne
10-08-2009, 03:10 PM
Damn you, as I was posting my long winded reply, talking about the 4th quarter passer rating, you go an slip in the actual stats :mad:. ;)

I was hunting while you were pecking. :D

topscribe
10-08-2009, 03:10 PM
Oh, and both of those additions have been keys to victory haven't they? Get a grip, neither have been cornerstones to victory. I'm high on Moreno, but has he really made all that big of a difference? No...has Ayers? No. While I do think in time they will be productive, neither has made an immediate impact, and I hoped we drafted Moreno when we had Cutler, after we traded him...

Cane, we're four (4) games into the season. How much impact do you
expect a rookie to have made four games into a season, for pity's sake?


Appeasing the ego, McDaniels lied to him and to the fans, whether he has done well or not, he LIED to Cutler and the fans, personally that is insulting. But we grow and go on...but quit pinning this all on Cutler, most players would be pissed if the coach lied to them and pulled the same crap. It wasn't just Cutler, and that is something you and the other Anti-Cutlerites need to get straight.

Well again, you're speculating and representing it as fact. McDaniels said he
received a call, he listened, and he hung up. What have we seen to disprove
it? I have seen no persuasive evidence that McDaniels went after Cassel.
Even Belichick has denied it.

My best guess is that Cutler was mad at Bowlen for firing Shanny, hence the
exit of Cutler's QB coach (I don't recall his name off the top). Therefore,
Cutler did not return Bowlen's calls. Cutler wanted out. Period. He was going
to be a cog in this team, not its prima donna, not "the man," as Bowlen once
said he was. I do not believe McDaniels actually had a lot to do with why
Cutler wanted out in the first place.

But then, just as what you said was speculation, so is what I just said . . .

-----

TXBRONC
10-08-2009, 03:15 PM
Through week 4.....

FOURTH QUARTER PASSING LEADERS

NAME ATT COM C% YDS YPA TD TD% LG INT IN% RAT
Orton, DEN 23 17 73.9 362 15.74 2 8.7 87t 0 0.0 144.7
P. Manning, IND 26 19 73.1 263 10.12 1 3.8 49 0 0.0 117.9
Croyle, KAN 14 8 57.1 127 9.07 1 7.1 50 0 0.0 111.3
Flacco, BAL 36 23 63.9 333 9.25 3 8.3 72t 1 2.8 110.1
P. Rivers, SND 43 27 62.8 426 9.91 3 7.0 55 1 2.3 109.3
Brady, NWE 50 31 62.0 322 6.44 3 6.0 36t 0 0.0 100.6


THIRD DOWN PASSING LEADERS

NAME ATT COM C% YDS YPA TD TD% LG INT IN% RAT
Orton, DEN 35 21 60.0 255 7.29 2 5.7 37 0 0.0 101.5
Flacco, BAL 42 28 66.7 312 7.43 4 9.5 31t 2 4.8 100.5
Schaub, HOU 34 20 58.8 211 6.21 3 8.8 22 1 2.9 94.1
Pennington, MIA 23 16 69.6 177 7.70 0 0.0 21 0 0.0 92.1
Brady, NWE 41 23 56.1 236 5.76 2 4.9 36t 0 0.0 89.1
P. Manning, IND 34 26 76.5 267 7.85 0 0.0 39 1 2.9 86.3

I wonder how they figure that out because Denver is only converting 3rd downs 36.7% of the time? That's all the games combined 18/49 and so far Denver our best showing was against Oakland at 41%.

BroncoWave
10-08-2009, 03:22 PM
Winning is never a balm in situations like this...remember Plummer and the AFC Championship, or the seasons leading up to it? Look at Green Bay with Rogers and the Farve debacle and how some still feel about that. It is rare to see the 'Face' of an organization be traded or released; Montana, Farve and Cutler are the three that come to mind off the bat. But even winning will never silence the entirety of a fandom, we want our heroes...our Manning, Brady and so forth.

You can have your heroes, I will take my winning.

I mean seriously, let's say we were to win the Super Bowl this year. Would you still be pissed about trading Cutler? If so, all I have to say is that I'm glad I don't share the same thought processes as you.

Or what if McDaniels won 3 super bowls here and Cutler never won one? Would you still be pissed? If so, I really don't know what else could be said to you.

And also, what qualifies Jay Cutler as a hero? His 17-20 record here? His constant pouting on the sidelines? His 20 turnovers last season? How he lied to the players and fans when he tried to claim that he didn't really request a trade? I honestly don't understand why so many people still have such a hard-on for him.

NightTrainLayne
10-08-2009, 03:26 PM
I wonder how they figure that out because Denver is only converting 3rd downs 36.7% of the time? That's all the games combined 18/49 and so far Denver our best showing was against Oakland at 41%.

We haven't thrown on every 3rd down. But those numbers still don't jibe. Who knows.

NightTrainLayne
10-08-2009, 03:28 PM
We haven't thrown on every 3rd down. But those numbers still don't jibe. Who knows.

Of course, you can still complete a pass and not convert the third down. That's probably the difference.

claymore
10-08-2009, 03:28 PM
You can have your heroes, I will take my winning.

I mean seriously, let's say we were to win the Super Bowl this year. Would you still be pissed about trading Cutler? If so, all I have to say is that I'm glad I don't share the same thought processes as you.

Or what if McDaniels won 3 super bowls here and Cutler never won one? Would you still be pissed? If so, I really don't know what else could be said to you.

And also, what qualifies Jay Cutler as a hero? His 17-20 record here? His constant pouting on the sidelines? His 20 turnovers last season? How he lied to the players and fans when he tried to claim that he didn't really request a trade? I honestly don't understand why so many people still have such a hard-on for him.If we change players every year I would seriously stop watching.

If I wanted the turmoil I would watch college. I understand free agency etc... But you have to have your heros. Its why kids fall in love with the game in the first place.

BroncoWave
10-08-2009, 03:33 PM
If we change players every year I would seriously stop watching.

If I wanted the turmoil I would watch college. I understand free agency etc... But you have to have your heros. Its why kids fall in love with the game in the first place.

I wasn't going to the extreme of completely changing players every year, just saying that I would more than happily sacrifice one player who many consider a "hero" for whatever reason if it meant us winning a championship.

TXBRONC
10-08-2009, 03:34 PM
We haven't thrown on every 3rd down. But those numbers still don't jibe. Who knows.

I realize that too that we don't throw on every 3rd down. It's not meant as a jab at Orton I just don't understand how they come up their numbers.

TXBRONC
10-08-2009, 03:38 PM
Of course, you can still complete a pass and not convert the third down. That's probably the difference.

Yeah I'm sure Orton completed pass on third downs that fell short for what ever reason. But I guess what it says this point is that team isn't very good at converting 3rd downs to 1st downs.

JDL
10-08-2009, 03:38 PM
I will say this... the article wasn't great in anyway. It had the basis for being a good article but was very amateurish and got certain details blatantly wrong. The REASON there were rumors that spread to Cutler wasn't his agent stirring the pot, it was that McDaniels ACTUALLY tried to trade Cutler for Cassel... period.

Whatever you think of that decision, let's not go down revisionist history here. McDaniels should and will continue to be on the spot with regards to that decision as even in the most forgiving of environments it was a highly questionable move for a rookie coach to make, (i.e. trading away your rookie QB.)

I may set out to cut my drive time to work in half and proceed mean to drive down the wrong side of the freeway during rush and make it to work safely, 15 minutes earlier. Just because I was successful, doesn't mean it was a good or smart decision. I am not saying Cutler was or wasn't, but going 4-0 really doesn't determine whether McDaniels made good choices by pursuing Matt Cassel. After all, Cassel has not looked good during the competitive parts of those games, sure the Eagles and Giants blew them out and then backed off in zone coverage and he put up some late stats, but he is part of the reason that team is atrocious right now. Doesn't mean it will continue to be that way and doesn't mean Pioli made a bad decision and is a bad GM for giving him all that money (even though that was equally as risk, imo, as trading away a young pro bowl QB.)

In the same way I imagine people here preached patience to the naysayers during the tumultuous offseason, I would strongly suggest that they take their own advice. I understand everyone is excited, but it seems like overnight Broncos fans have gotten drunk off the kool-aid of a 4-0 start. We really should be accustomed to this by now as we routinely have gotten off to terrific starts, we have had dominant D's early in seasons, it is very cool after an offseason of so much doubt.

I just like to evaluate what we've seen and we have seen good in-game coaching, though I am starting to worry about our inability to play effectively in the early portions of the game (lack of a good gameplan?) Nonetheless, it has been a lot of fun, but I would just be careful about revisiting what was an ugly offseason for Broncos fandom everywhere. You may end up looking very dumb yourself, because Cutler is not doing a bad job himself right now and he has about a decade left to prove McDaniels wrong, Cassel has something to say too, if he sucks or doesn't and McDaniels himself is very early in his brief coaching career. If Cutler wins a couple Super Bowls and McDaniels doesn't even win a playoff game, what then? you'll have the other side in here rubbing your face in it and wondering where you are?

My point is that it doesn't do any good to start threads like this, imo, when the real purpose is to try and rub other fans - fans as passionate as you - noses in the muck. I've tried a different approach this offseason almost by accident, trying to relate and understand each sides point of view. But, I am seeing quite a few of these types of threads that really are just for re-hashing old stuff (I know this was about an article, but just seemed to give people an excuse.)

Ehhh, I guess it just seems counterproductive to me (particularly when we should be trying to heal as a fan base) and even if it wasn't, it would seem to me to be EXTREMELY early for acting that way. Don't go jinxing this team by being a chest-thumper! The season is long and the careers involved are likely to be quite a bit longer. You might be able to tell the ending from Chapter 1, but it isn't likely with this novel (think about the Mario Williams v. Reggie Bush debate.)

claymore
10-08-2009, 03:38 PM
I wasn't going to the extreme of completely changing players every year, just saying that I would more than happily sacrifice one player who many consider a "hero" for whatever reason if it meant us winning a championship.

I wouldnt trade a "Hero" player for that.

Lancane
10-08-2009, 05:32 PM
Cane, we're four (4) games into the season. How much impact do you
expect a rookie to have made four games into a season, for pity's sake?



Well again, you're speculating and representing it as fact. McDaniels said he
received a call, he listened, and he hung up. What have we seen to disprove
it? I have seen no persuasive evidence that McDaniels went after Cassel.
Even Belichick has denied it.

My best guess is that Cutler was mad at Bowlen for firing Shanny, hence the
exit of Cutler's QB coach (I don't recall his name off the top). Therefore,
Cutler did not return Bowlen's calls. Cutler wanted out. Period. He was going
to be a cog in this team, not its prima donna, not "the man," as Bowlen once
said he was. I do not believe McDaniels actually had a lot to do with why
Cutler wanted out in the first place.

But then, just as what you said was speculation, so is what I just said . . .

-----

Why don't you ask how much of a difference Sanchez makes to New York or Ryan to Atlanta! And I never expected him to start a rookie either, even if he had drafted Sanchez, fans would have been happy to know the future was on the roster, that there was a new face to the team.

And how am I speculating? Did McDaniels not say flat out that "he was not trying to trade Cutler and there had been no such discussions"? And he did Top, then he changed his tune to "oh, I listened to an offer". A lie is a lie, deal with it Top. I don't hate McDaniels for it, I chaulk it up as rookie mistake and let it be. I am not anti-McDaniels, or did you forget I was one of his biggest supporters, I fell away for awhile over the Cutler ordeal...but I'm over it. What bothers me is that he did not try and replace the face and what we had hoped was the heart of this team. And people have a hard time buying into Brandstater being that figurehead sort of speak.

Lancane
10-08-2009, 05:38 PM
I wouldnt trade a "Hero" player for that.

Of course not, because the comparison is one championship to possibly many. That is what the so-called 'Heroes' bring. Their the ones that fill the seats, sell the merchandise beyond the standard market and the fanbase, let alone, make it what it is.

Day1BroncoFan
10-08-2009, 05:51 PM
Football players aren't my heroes. What they do on the field don't make them a heroe to me.

Foochacho
10-08-2009, 06:00 PM
Of course not, because the comparison is one championship to possibly many. That is what the so-called 'Heroes' bring. Their the ones that fill the seats, sell the merchandise beyond the standard market and the fanbase, let alone, make it what it is.

Brett Favre would be considered a hero and franchise qb, yet he only has one championship. How many seasons has he played now 19 or so? One player does not make a team. I will take a championship over a player anyday. Championships don't come around very often. Some teams are still waiting on theirs.

Bronco Warrior
10-08-2009, 06:04 PM
The Cutler thing will probablly never be competely settled even if we win a SuperBowl Soon, because the biggest difference has been stellar Defensive play. Cutler was 13-1 for us went the defense held opponants to 21 points or less, the only loss was the overtime first play touchdown in GreenBay where the O never got to touch the ball. How do you think the guy would have done with a defense averaging 6.5? Hate his passion even when it went wrong but the guys wanted to win! Ever think he would shrug his shoulders sheepishly and say "My Bad"? Cutler left his soul out on the field every game..for good or bad. I wouldn't mind seeing a little more of that in Orton and a little less "Ah Shucks!"

BroncoWave
10-08-2009, 06:48 PM
I wouldnt trade a "Hero" player for that.

I would. I cheer for the Denver Broncos. And if it means trading a "hero" to win a championship, I'll do it every time.

I am fully with Day1Broncofan and Foochacho on this. Players come and go, but championships last forever. And really, winning championships is what makes players "heroes" anyway, so the point would become moot.

BroncoWave
10-08-2009, 06:52 PM
The Cutler thing will probablly never be competely settled even if we win a SuperBowl Soon, because the biggest difference has been stellar Defensive play. Cutler was 13-1 for us went the defense held opponants to 21 points or less, the only loss was the overtime first play touchdown in GreenBay where the O never got to touch the ball. How do you think the guy would have done with a defense averaging 6.5? Hate his passion even when it went wrong but the guys wanted to win! Ever think he would shrug his shoulders sheepishly and say "My Bad"? Cutler left his soul out on the field every game..for good or bad. I wouldn't mind seeing a little more of that in Orton and a little less "Ah Shucks!"

I'm sorry but you could not be more wrong about that last part. I met Matt Forte last year (he finished his degree at Tulane and we are both business students, so I saw him from time to time) and I asked him about Orton after he was traded here and he said that Orton was the hardest worker and biggest competitor on the team. He also said that Orton was always the first player in the building and the last one out. So shut the hell up with your "Orton doesn't care about winning" crap because you could not be further from the truth.

Brand
10-08-2009, 06:52 PM
Winning 2 games one by sheer luck, and one by good defense and a wonderful almost miracle run by BM doesn't make him a genius.

Trading Cutler was retarded. It was a terrible move. That is a fact. Until he replaces Cutler with an upgrade at the position, I will always say it was a stupid move.

He is a good coach, and I like him, but it was a ridiculous move that I cant get behind no matter how many games he wins.

It is in the past, and I have forgiven him though.

Ya know, the "shear luck" thing is rather overblown. Tipped passes for scores and for long gains are not unusal. Colorado beat Michigan with such a play. This past week we saw a couple of tips that went for first downs. There have been several "Hail Marys" that were successful in College and Pro ball. Lucky? I don't think so. I think Stokes was around just in case a "Hail Mary" event happened.


PS: Quitler isn't coming back. Get over it......

Brand
10-08-2009, 06:59 PM
The Cutler thing will probablly never be competely settled even if we win a SuperBowl Soon, because the biggest difference has been stellar Defensive play. Cutler was 13-1 for us went the defense held opponants to 21 points or less, the only loss was the overtime first play touchdown in GreenBay where the O never got to touch the ball. How do you think the guy would have done with a defense averaging 6.5? Hate his passion even when it went wrong but the guys wanted to win! Ever think he would shrug his shoulders sheepishly and say "My Bad"? Cutler left his soul out on the field every game..for good or bad. I wouldn't mind seeing a little more of that in Orton and a little less "Ah Shucks!"

"sniff, sniff......":Cry:

Sorry but that is what your post souds like. Orton does care and he tries hard, plays hard and takes the game plan to heart. He was in Denver a day after the trade and looking to get into the playbook. C'mon. Don't let your fantasy ideas ruin your view of what is happening...

Lonestar
10-08-2009, 07:03 PM
World of difference between Elway, Montana, Brady, Manning and Cutler.

As I said, the heart of a team isn't always the QB and it isn't soley the QB. This team has been heartless and leaderless for years. Cutler may be that guy one day, but he wasn't while he was here and he still isn't right now.


yep since Jake retired..Glad you noticed..

Lonestar
10-08-2009, 07:16 PM
I wonder how they figure that out because Denver is only converting 3rd downs 36.7% of the time? That's all the games combined 18/49 and so far Denver our best showing was against Oakland at 41%.


I'm guessing that the 3rd % your thinking about includes running attempts NTL were strictly Passing stats.. could be part of the number difference

Bronco Warrior
10-08-2009, 07:38 PM
I'm not the one who said that about Orton..didn't say he doesn't WANT to win..just how he deals with a mistake. Talk smack about what I said but watch the SooundFX clip..he says "My Bad" and Josh says it's past "My Bad" THIS TIME!!! Which SUGGESTS that it is a typical response for Orton and he said it very dispassionately. That may be just Orton's style low key and reserved..which also lends itself, if true, to my point. Watching Orton speak at a press conferance is like watching Potato do a monolague! He just isn't high on the inspirational speaking chart. He can win all he wants, that doesn't make him an inspirational player...So far he hasn't needed to be. This game will expose the real Orton..whatever that is!

Lonestar
10-08-2009, 08:00 PM
I'm not the one who said that about Orton..didn't say he doesn't WANT to win..just how he deals with a mistake. Talk smack about what I said but watch the SooundFX clip..he says "My Bad" and Josh says it's past "My Bad" THIS TIME!!! Which SUGGESTS that it is a typical response for Orton and he said it very dispassionately. That may be just Orton's style low key and reserved..which also lends itself, if true, to my point. Watching Orton speak at a press conferance is like watching Potato do a monolague! He just isn't high on the inspirational speaking chart. He can win all he wants, that doesn't make him an inspirational player...So far he hasn't needed to be. This game will expose the real Orton..whatever that is!


his teammates like him and follow him.. not sure if he needs to be Mr Charisma in press conferences.. he answers the quetsions doe nor blow reporters off, is not flip.. not sure what you are expecting.


think it already has been, seems to be a winner where ever he goes..

He seems to be hard working lunch pail carrying, not pretty that just wins.. pretty good exposure IMO..

T.K.O.
10-08-2009, 08:18 PM
It's fan drivel and it is that simple.

As to the whole Cutler debacle, I am not so pissed that the team traded Cutler as I am that they took the face of the franchise and arguably the heart of the team, traded him and then did not try and replace him. Quarterbacks are the faces and hearts of a franchise and it's fandom, that is why they are so protected by the officials and garner the biggest paychecks. After all what is San Diego without Rivers or New Orleans without Brees...same for Pittsburgh and Big Ben, Minnesota and Farve, Atlanta and Ryan, Jets and Sanchez, New England and Brady, Indianapolis and Manning, and yadda, yadda. Fact is that a team without that one key player behind center will do everything to get one...Baltimore was a defensive football team and knew they needed one and went out and got Flacco, same with Pittsburgh and Big Ben. In my honest opinion, I am more upset that McDaniels did so little to replace Cutler, because I do not think Cutler was the best quarterback for such a precision based offense as the 'Pro-Spread'...he is better suited for the Coryell, West Coast and possibly the Run & Gun.

The spread requires a quarterback that is smart and mobile, but more or less can make every throw deep and short, precise accuracy and mechanics and decent overall arm strength. Orton has barely been able to complete over half of his passes in a system which makes quarterbacks look like gods. McDaniels should have traded for Sanchez, IMHO. But that is over and done...but I don't believe that McDaniels is happy with Orton overall, his numbers reflect how poorous he has done in such a quarterback friendly system and not by lack of talent around him.

I think that is the biggest thing, not that the trade happened, but just that we got nothing in return. It will be interesting to see what happens after the season, Orton is a Restricted Free Agent and not worth starter money, so do they draft someone, start Simms or is Brandstater the guy...and whether or not it is Brandstater or a rookie, I think you will see a lot of the fandom that are being critical back them up and it quiet down. But if we keep Orton and lose Marshall and so forth, those opposed will only get louder.

went out and got flacco? they drafted a qb...nobody knows how great flacco will be ,he had a descent year....orton has done more than flacco.
how did josh not address the qb situation ...he picked up the best deal he could at the time and got a qb that can run his system and has'nt lost a game yet.
just because he has'nt thrown 10 tds in his 1st 4 games doesnt mean he is not the right qb for the job.
his #s are almost identical to cutlers so far this year with 2 less td's and 5 less picks....

BroncoWave
10-08-2009, 08:35 PM
I'm not the one who said that about Orton..didn't say he doesn't WANT to win..just how he deals with a mistake. Talk smack about what I said but watch the SooundFX clip..he says "My Bad" and Josh says it's past "My Bad" THIS TIME!!! Which SUGGESTS that it is a typical response for Orton and he said it very dispassionately. That may be just Orton's style low key and reserved..which also lends itself, if true, to my point. Watching Orton speak at a press conferance is like watching Potato do a monolague! He just isn't high on the inspirational speaking chart. He can win all he wants, that doesn't make him an inspirational player...So far he hasn't needed to be. This game will expose the real Orton..whatever that is!

Like I said, I have met a player who played with him and he had nothing but positive things to say about him, and this was AFTER he was traded. That says alot to me. Just because you don't like his style doesn't mean his coaches and teammates don't buy into it, and I think I will definitely take those people's opinions over yours.

topscribe
10-08-2009, 08:37 PM
Why don't you ask how much of a difference Sanchez makes to New York or Ryan to Atlanta! And I never expected him to start a rookie either, even if he had drafted Sanchez, fans would have been happy to know the future was on the roster, that there was a new face to the team.

So what you are saying is that Sanchez is the difference with the Jets, and
Ryan was the difference with Atlanta, but the defense was the difference
with Denver, right?


And how am I speculating? Did McDaniels not say flat out that "he was not trying to trade Cutler and there had been no such discussions"? And he did Top, then he changed his tune to "oh, I listened to an offer". A lie is a lie, deal with it Top. I don't hate McDaniels for it, I chaulk it up as rookie mistake and let it be. I am not anti-McDaniels, or did you forget I was one of his biggest supporters, I fell away for awhile over the Cutler ordeal...but I'm over it. What bothers me is that he did not try and replace the face and what we had hoped was the heart of this team. And people have a hard time buying into Brandstater being that figurehead sort of speak.

According to my information, McDaniels from the first said he listened to an
offer and that was it, and that he was not trying to trade Cutler, and he
never changed his tune.

Now, that might not be accurate, but I have never seen any documentation
to the contrary. Do you have some reliable sources? If I am wrong, I would
like to see it. But so far, it seems there are those who are stating that
McDaniels lied and that he tried to trade Cutler. And I see that such a remark
just a few posts back was actually saluted, even though, just as all the
others, it provided no documentation.

It's not great big deal to me. It is what it is. But it would be nice to discover
the truth, although I don't know why . . .

-----

Bronco Warrior
10-08-2009, 08:38 PM
Orton has never been a commanding Offensive force, has never had to be. Dominating defense and in the case of Chicago, a Defense and special teams that averaged as many scores as Orton's passing arm, have mae his job much easier! This game I feel that he will have to step up and be more than he has HAD TO in the past. I saw improvement, and the same old Orton last week, He showed more zip on his ball but missed a ton of open guys too. Will the Real Kyle Orton please stand up! He can do more..will it be this week? I hope so!

topscribe
10-08-2009, 08:46 PM
The Cutler thing will probablly never be competely settled even if we win a SuperBowl Soon, because the biggest difference has been stellar Defensive play. Cutler was 13-1 for us went the defense held opponants to 21 points or less, the only loss was the overtime first play touchdown in GreenBay where the O never got to touch the ball. How do you think the guy would have done with a defense averaging 6.5? Hate his passion even when it went wrong but the guys wanted to win! Ever think he would shrug his shoulders sheepishly and say "My Bad"? Cutler left his soul out on the field every game..for good or bad. I wouldn't mind seeing a little more of that in Orton and a little less "Ah Shucks!"

Am I getting the impression that you are saying Orton doesn't care? You don't
think Orton leaves it out on the field? I'll tell you what: You go ahead and
dislocate your finger on your throwing hand so badly that it ripped the skin open
and required stitches, then go out and keep throwing the ball with it. Or have
yourself a high ankle sprain and then play half the season on it.

Don't tell me about Orton and "Ah shucks." You really, really don't know what
you are talking about there.

Wow, these boards are full of people who think they know all about Orton.
Yes, Orton is so bad in so many ways that his teammates voted him a
Captain . . . in his first year here. If they read any of these boards, I'll bet
they just shake their respective heads a lot . . . :tsk:

-----

topscribe
10-08-2009, 08:51 PM
Orton has never been a commanding Offensive force, has never had to be. Dominating defense and in the case of Chicago, a Defense and special teams that averaged as many scores as Orton's passing arm, have mae his job much easier! This game I feel that he will have to step up and be more than he has HAD TO in the past. I saw improvement, and the same old Orton last week, He showed more zip on his ball but missed a ton of open guys too. Will the Real Kyle Orton please stand up! He can do more..will it be this week? I hope so!

Chicago did not have a dominating defense. That is a myth. They ranked #30
in the league in pass defense. Is that dominating?

Moreover, you tell me that Chicago had anywhere near the receiving corps that
Denver did and does. Or the offensive line. Or the running game (Chicago's YPC
was 3.9, ranking it #27 in the league, whereas Denver's was 4.8, ranking it
#2 in the league).

-----

rcsodak
10-09-2009, 12:53 AM
Winning 2 games one by sheer luck, and one by good defense and a wonderful almost miracle run by BM doesn't make him a genius.

Trading Cutler was retarded. It was a terrible move. That is a fact. Until he replaces Cutler with an upgrade at the position, I will always say it was a stupid move.

He is a good coach, and I like him, but it was a ridiculous move that I cant get behind no matter how many games he wins.

It is in the past, and I have forgiven him though.

Is that why Orton has better states/record than cutler?

1. Denver deserved to win game 1. They dominated. Hell, you could say cinci got lucky and scored, for all that matters.

2. Since when is it WRONG for a team to win with one aspect of their team? The ravens did it for how long? Were they wrong?
How about KC with the midget winning them games on ST's? Were they wrong?
A team is made up of 3 parts. Just because Shanny could only rely on 1 of them, doesn't make what's happening now, wrong.

3. Having a WR break a play for a TD is also wrong? Maybe you're just sad that Asshlie lelie is gone? You remember him, right? Great for the long bombs, but not so great for staying on his feet afterwards.
I guess BMarsh should just start falling down from now on, after he makes a reception. That way, we won't be accused of winning on any 'miracle' catches.

Damn, clay! You're sounding more and more like some of these so-called Broncos fans that would rather have the team lose, just to save face on McD's hire and subsequent actions.

You're better than that.

frenchfan
10-09-2009, 01:55 AM
Well... I'm really tired to hear those things about Orton...

We will all agree that he is not the most talented QB in the NFL yet... So what?

He could find a way to hit BM at the end of the game to win it.
IMO, he can't be responsible for our lack of short yardage running conversion (is he a RB???? :confused: ).

Yes... may be he let some plays on the field... But which QB don't?
He doesn't have the best arm in the league... but I'm sure he hasn't the worst brain...

Sure he needs to improve... I think we will all agree about that...

But he is a hard worker, a guys who wants to win for sure... He is dedicated to his team and will try to do whatever he can for his team.
He can play through pain.
IMO he has leadership because of that... He at least earns respect for that...
Who cares about his media talk? I'd better ask his teammates about his talking and his leadership qualities...

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong... I would be glad to see a more talented QB here (Cutler?) but with some of Kyle's qualities too...

Do you think he is worst than Dilfer???? :shocked:

claymore
10-09-2009, 06:26 AM
I wouldnt trade a "Hero" player for that.


Of course not, because the comparison is one championship to possibly many. That is what the so-called 'Heroes' bring. Their the ones that fill the seats, sell the merchandise beyond the standard market and the fanbase, let alone, make it what it is.


I would. I cheer for the Denver Broncos. And if it means trading a "hero" to win a championship, I'll do it every time.

I am fully with Day1Broncofan and Foochacho on this. Players come and go, but championships last forever. And really, winning championships is what makes players "heroes" anyway, so the point would become moot.

Yes championships are forever, but they also go with the team when its sold. Thats why Cleveland has no championships.

When you think of your favorite momnets in sports, do you think of the trophie, or a play a player made, or something the player does?

I never think of the trophies, I always remember specifics, like the drive, and TD's 2008th yard, and Atwater's hit on Okoye.

I wouldnt trade my memories of any of these players for a trophy.

claymore
10-09-2009, 06:36 AM
I'm pretty sure that someone posted Orton at the top of third-down QB rating.

We are at about 36.7% for third down conversions. Which is 18th in the NFL. It is also better than I thought we were.

We have room for improvement, as JMCD has said. We havent even seen what we can do cause we keep shooting ourselves in the foot.

BroncoWave
10-09-2009, 08:40 AM
Yes championships are forever, but they also go with the team when its sold. Thats why Cleveland has no championships.

When you think of your favorite momnets in sports, do you think of the trophie, or a play a player made, or something the player does?

I never think of the trophies, I always remember specifics, like the drive, and TD's 2008th yard, and Atwater's hit on Okoye.

I wouldnt trade my memories of any of these players for a trophy.

My point is, no matter how many of these "heroes" you trade, if you still wind up winning a championship those new players will make new great memories and they will become the heroes that you remember forever. This is my point.

As for the Browns, I really have no idea what they have to do with any of this but, ok...

claymore
10-09-2009, 08:52 AM
My point is, no matter how many of these "heroes" you trade, if you still wind up winning a championship those new players will make new great memories and they will become the heroes that you remember forever. This is my point.

As for the Browns, I really have no idea what they have to do with any of this but, ok...

The point with the Browns was that the championship isnt forever. Would you havbe traded Elway 3 years into his career for a super bowl in 87?

BroncoWave
10-09-2009, 10:24 AM
The point with the Browns was that the championship isnt forever. Would you havbe traded Elway 3 years into his career for a super bowl in 87?

I can't say, I wasn't alive back then and didn't have an opinion of him at that point in time.

claymore
10-09-2009, 10:36 AM
I can't say, I wasn't alive back then and didn't have an opinion of him at that point in time.

Who is you're favorite Bronco player of all time then?

BroncoWave
10-09-2009, 10:55 AM
Who is you're favorite Bronco player of all time then?

Obviously Elway, but my opinion of him in 1987 might have been very different than my opinion of him today.

But I really hope you aren't trying to tie this back to Cutler because he has shown me nothing to prove that he will be half the QB Elway was.

Day1BroncoFan
10-09-2009, 10:58 AM
It's easy to pick a "hero" after the fact. Does anyone care to predict who the next "hero" will be?

The thing is hero's aren't heros until after they become a hero.

FTR, I don't call football players "heros" for what they do on the field. ;)

claymore
10-09-2009, 11:07 AM
Obviously Elway, but my opinion of him in 1987 might have been very different than my opinion of him today.

But I really hope you aren't trying to tie this back to Cutler because he has shown me nothing to prove that he will be half the QB Elway was.

Cutler was a much better QB in his first few years than Elway was. I think the comparison is right on target.

So would you have traded Elway for 2 first round draft picks and Steve Deberg?

Day1BroncoFan
10-09-2009, 11:15 AM
Elway is a Broncos' legend.

Cutler is not a Broncos legend and will never be a Broncos legend.

Cutler's memory will be of him leaving and turmoil.

claymore
10-09-2009, 11:26 AM
Elway is a Broncos' legend.

Cutler is not a Broncos legend and will never be a Broncos legend.

Cutler's memory will be of him leaving and turmoil.

Thank you Capt obvious.

NightTrainLayne
10-09-2009, 11:32 AM
Cutler's stats were better. Still not sure I'd say that Cutler was better.

claymore
10-09-2009, 11:38 AM
Cutler's stats were better. Still not sure I'd say that Cutler was better.

Statistically he was better. Everything else is just made up. You can say heart, winning attitude, worse team, it was the 80's etc... Fact is, Cutler was on pace to destroy any record Elway held.

Softskull
10-09-2009, 11:45 AM
Cutler was a much better QB in his first few years than Elway was. I think the comparison is right on target.

So would you have traded Elway for 2 first round draft picks and Steve Deberg?

It's a perfect comparison. Both were great college players that never lead their teams to any college bowls. Both first round draft picks. Both strong armed, strong willed QBs. Both forced trades by the team that drafted them. Both struggled in their first few years in the NFL. Cutler's game actually matured faster than Elways. Both were put on the trade block by their coaches. Elway beat his coach. Cutler lost to his coach. Because of that, we call Elway a legend and Cutler a bum.

BroncoWave
10-09-2009, 11:49 AM
It's easy to pick a "hero" after the fact. Does anyone care to predict who the next "hero" will be?

The thing is hero's aren't heros until after they become a hero.

FTR, I don't call football players "heros" for what they do on the field. ;)

This is what I have been trying to say the whole time. It's easy to call Elway a hero now since he is long retired and had a great deal of success here. But in 1987, no one could have predicted that. It also plays into my point that players really become heroes after they lead teams to great success, which is why you can't consider Cutler anything close to that and the same goes for Elway back in 87. Of course now I'm glad we didn't trade him in 87 but at that point in time it could have been a completely different mindset.

guitarj
10-09-2009, 11:54 AM
Statistically he was better. Everything else is just made up. You can say heart, winning attitude, worse team, it was the 80's etc... Fact is, Cutler was on pace to destroy any record Elway held.

I remember Elway's first 3 years very well. Believe me he most definetly was not considered a legend then....especially with Marino lighting it up the way he was at the time (Marino being in the same draft class as Elway). Elway was always the target of criticism. He had such an ability to stink it up most of the game, then be absolutly brilliant in the 4th Quarter.

Although I think a lot of that had to do with Reeves philosophy and coaching. It made for a lot of nailbiter edge of your seat type of games, and with Elway, anything was possible....haha

claymore
10-09-2009, 11:55 AM
This is what I have been trying to say the whole time. It's easy to call Elway a hero now since he is long retired and had a great deal of success here. But in 1987, no one could have predicted that. It also plays into my point that players really become heroes after they lead teams to great success, which is why you can't consider Cutler anything close to that and the same goes for Elway back in 87. Of course now I'm glad we didn't trade him in 87 but at that point in time it could have been a completely different mindset.

I got that point, but I for one thought Cutler would be far better than Elway. That is why I say I wouldnt have traded him for a championship let alone 2 #1's.

silkamilkamonico
10-09-2009, 12:05 PM
Cutler had a chance to be a "hero" last year in the final 3 games of the season and failed miserably. I'm also not sure if anyone is throwing that word out for him or what, but he was a terrible QB in Denver when the games actually mattered.

His 0-6 record, 4TD's/7int's with a QB rating hovering in the 70's of the 6 playoff determining games he played in at Denver only show that.

His patches of greatness mixed in with patches of stupidy average him out to be a good but not great QB in the NFL.

guitarj
10-09-2009, 12:10 PM
Elway beat his coach. Cutler lost to his coach.

No. Elway did the classy thing and stayed with his team. Yes, I know he stuck his nose up at the Colts when they drated him.

Which brings up the point that I dont think Cutler was a big fan of this town. He did like Shanny and his scheme and that kept him satisfied during his time here. He sure did want out of here quick as soon as that was gone, even putting his house on the market before he was traded.

I do think Cutler will mature and grow. He most likley will be a fixture in the league for years to come. He will not be another Elway though. Elway just had that wow factor....heart....the ablility to carry his mediocre teams to 3 superbowls. Having watched both, its hard to put into words the difference that i am trying to explain that stats just wont tell.

silkamilkamonico
10-09-2009, 12:13 PM
Which brings up the point that I dont think Cutler was a big fan of this town. He did like Shanny and his scheme and that kept him satisfied during his time here. He sure did want out of here quick as soon as that was gone, even putting his house on the market before he was traded..

I think Cutler was simply hurt to think McDaniels didn't view him as the one and only. It's as simple as that IMHO. Cutler was a 26 year old kid who was very sensitive about the subject and couldn't handle it. It worked out for both parties. Cutler didn't want to play for McDaniels, and McDaniels obviiously didn't think much of Cutler's loose skin.

BroncosRockdaRockies
10-09-2009, 12:16 PM
He gets the credit for winning. He gets the credit for screwing up the Cutler debacle.

Thats the way it works.

Actually the problem with this statement is Josh McDaniels wasn't even hired yet when Cutler walked into Bowlens Office saying he wanted to be traded b/c of the firing of Jeremy Bates.

And then Jay Cutler goes to the Pro Bowl talking it up with Pro Bowlers like Urlacher,Manning etc.etc. to get information as to where his possibilities stand as a 3rd year QB all this time ignoring Bowlens calls.

Then Pat Bowlen hires Josh McDaniels because of his talents with working with Qb's thinking if he gets him in here he can make it work with Cutler. And well unfortunately Cutler has already made his choice long before McD was hire, but to make him feel better he makes it out to be the Franchise fault.

That is how i see it and I blame Cutler for all the bad press to this organization and I hope his career ends soon with a broken neck or a Joe Thiesman knee bone sticking out in 3 different places. I hate him and he was never a franchise QB in my book. He doesn't have a winning record going all the way back to his high school days and yet he has aquired the title of a franchise QB? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFT like i said i hope his career gets ended b/c IMO Karma always bites back!!!

If you don't like my opinion then don't read it, and if you already read it and you still don't like well all I can say is that you have the same pants to get glad in!

claymore
10-09-2009, 12:18 PM
Cutler had a chance to be a "hero" last year in the final 3 games of the season and failed miserably. I'm also not sure if anyone is throwing that word out for him or what, but he was a terrible QB in Denver when the games actually mattered.

His 0-6 record, 4TD's/7int's with a QB rating hovering in the 70's of the 6 playoff determining games he played in at Denver only show that.

His patches of greatness mixed in with patches of stupidy average him out to be a good but not great QB in the NFL.

Elway turned it over almost 80 times his first 3 years. That isnt an argument.

claymore
10-09-2009, 12:20 PM
Actually the problem with this statement is Josh McDaniels wasn't even hired yet when Cutler walked into Bowlens Office saying he wanted to be traded b/c of the firing of Jeremy Bates.

And then Jay Cutler goes to the Pro Bowl talking it up with Pro Bowlers like Urlacher,Manning etc.etc. to get information as to where his possibilities stand as a 3rd year QB all this time ignoring Bowlens calls.

Then Pat Bowlen hires Josh McDaniels because of his talents with working with Qb's thinking if he gets him in here he can make it work with Cutler. And well unfortunately Cutler has already made his choice long before McD was hire, but to make him feel better he makes it out to be the Franchise fault.

That is how i see it and I blame Cutler for all the bad press to this organization and I hope his career ends soon with a broken neck or a Joe Thiesman knee bone sticking out in 3 different places. I hate him and he was never a franchise QB in my book. He doesn't have a winning record going all the way back to his high school days and yet he has aquired the title of a franchise QB? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFT like i said i hope his career gets ended b/c IMO Karma always bites back!!!

If you don't like my opinion then don't read it, and if you already read it and you still don't like well all I can say is that you have the same pant to get glad in!Wow.

NightTrainLayne
10-09-2009, 12:23 PM
Actually the problem with this statement is Josh McDaniels wasn't even hired yet when Cutler walked into Bowlens Office saying he wanted to be traded b/c of the firing of Jeremy Bates.

And then Jay Cutler goes to the Pro Bowl talking it up with Pro Bowlers like Urlacher,Manning etc.etc. to get information as to where his possibilities stand as a 3rd year QB all this time ignoring Bowlens calls.

Then Pat Bowlen hires Josh McDaniels because of his talents with working with Qb's thinking if he gets him in here he can make it work with Cutler. And well unfortunately Cutler has already made his choice long before McD was hire, but to make him feel better he makes it out to be the Franchise fault.

That is how i see it and I blame Cutler for all the bad press to this organization and I hope his career ends soon with a broken neck or a Joe Thiesman knee bone sticking out in 3 different places. I hate him and he was never a franchise QB in my book. He doesn't have a winning record going all the way back to his high school days and yet he has aquired the title of a franchise QB? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFT like i said i hope his career gets ended b/c IMO Karma always bites back!!!

If you don't like my opinion then don't read it, and if you already read it and you still don't like well all I can say is that you have the same pant to get glad in!

:eek: :shocked: :listen:

silkamilkamonico
10-09-2009, 12:26 PM
Elway turned it over almost 80 times his first 3 years. That isnt an argument.

Elway found ways to win those big games he turned the ball over. That's not even an argument either.

I'd take 3 turnovers a game from a QB if he still found a way to win.

Stats are lame. People use stats all the time. People are using stats this year to show why Drew Brees is the best QB in the game, and then cringe when they see his 1-24 record as a starting QB when trailing in the 4th quarter. And then they wonder why he's only won 1 career playoff game.

Even Jake Plummer won a playoff game with a defense ranked 24th in the NFL.

Softskull
10-09-2009, 12:30 PM
No. Elway did the classy thing and stayed with his team. Yes, I know he stuck his nose up at the Colts when they drated him.


No, Elway is credited with getting Dan Reeves fired. I wouldn't really label that as classy. But dont get me wrong. If Cutler could have got McDaniels fired, I'm sure he would have.

claymore
10-09-2009, 12:40 PM
Elway found ways to win those big games he turned the ball over. That's not even an argument either.

I'd take 3 turnovers a game from a QB if he still found a way to win.

Stats are lame. People use stats all the time. People are using stats this year to show why Drew Brees is the best QB in the game, and then cringe when they see his 1-24 record as a starting QB when trailing in the 4th quarter. And then they wonder why he's only won 1 career playoff game.

Even Jake Plummer won a playoff game with a defense ranked 24th in the NFL.
Stats are only lame when they dont support your argument.

Plummer is a DB, there is a reason he was traded for a conditional 4th rounder.

Softskull
10-09-2009, 12:41 PM
Stats are lame.
Even Jake Plummer won a playoff game with a defense ranked 24th in the NFL.

Ironic.

Well, if you use the wrong stats they're lame.

2005 Bronco defense was rated 15 overall and 4th against the rush.

In the 2005 playoffs, Jake threw 2 TDs and 3 Int. Stellar. Seems we won in spite of Plummer, not because of him.

silkamilkamonico
10-09-2009, 12:43 PM
Stats are only lame when they dont support your argument.

Plummer is a DB, there is a reason he was traded for a conditional 4th rounder.

Kind of makes the argument of Cutler being untradeable kind of stupid. You don't trade gus like Brady and Manning. Both Brady and Manning were much better Qb's than Cutler in their 4th year in the NFL, than Cutler is right now.

As far as Cutler being the next "great" one. The entire NFL is still waiting.

silkamilkamonico
10-09-2009, 12:44 PM
Ironic.

Well, if you use the wrong stats they're lame.

2005 Bronco defense was rated 15 overall and 4th against the rush.

In the 2005 playoffs, Jake threw 2 TDs and 3 Int. Stellar. Seems we won in spite of Plummer, not because of him.

Who said anything about 2005? try and keep up next time.

Foley11
10-09-2009, 12:46 PM
all I can say is that you have the same pant to get glad in!

I'm kinda new here. Can Anyone explain to me what the hell this means?

Softskull
10-09-2009, 12:55 PM
Elway found ways to win those big games he turned the ball over. That's not even an argument either.

Like during the first few Superbowls.

Tned
10-09-2009, 12:56 PM
Actually the problem with this statement is Josh McDaniels wasn't even hired yet when Cutler walked into Bowlens Office saying he wanted to be traded b/c of the firing of Jeremy Bates.

And then Jay Cutler goes to the Pro Bowl talking it up with Pro Bowlers like Urlacher,Manning etc.etc. to get information as to where his possibilities stand as a 3rd year QB all this time ignoring Bowlens calls.

Then Pat Bowlen hires Josh McDaniels because of his talents with working with Qb's thinking if he gets him in here he can make it work with Cutler. And well unfortunately Cutler has already made his choice long before McD was hire, but to make him feel better he makes it out to be the Franchise fault.

That is how i see it and I blame Cutler for all the bad press to this organization and I hope his career ends soon with a broken neck or a Joe Thiesman knee bone sticking out in 3 different places. I hate him and he was never a franchise QB in my book. He doesn't have a winning record going all the way back to his high school days and yet he has aquired the title of a franchise QB? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFT like i said i hope his career gets ended b/c IMO Karma always bites back!!!

If you don't like my opinion then don't read it, and if you already read it and you still don't like well all I can say is that you have the same pants to get glad in!

Bates wasn't fired before McDaniels was hired. Bates was one of the handful of coaches (along with Dennison and a couple others) that were not part of the initial purge, but were being kept on the staff until the new coach was hired and would determine if they stayed or were let go.

Therefore, I am not sure where you are getting this information. From what I saw reported, Bowlen told Cutler that it would be up to the new coach whether Bates was kept on.

claymore
10-09-2009, 12:58 PM
Kind of makes the argument of Cutler being untradeable kind of stupid. You don't trade gus like Brady and Manning. Both Brady and Manning were much better Qb's than Cutler in their 4th year in the NFL, than Cutler is right now.
As far as Cutler being the next "great" one. The entire NFL is still waiting.

Um, no they didnt. You can only compare ratings at this point in the season, but ......

Cutler has an 89.3
Brady had a 85.9
Manning had a 84.1

silkamilkamonico
10-09-2009, 12:58 PM
Like during the first few Superbowls.

Great argument. If Cutler ever got Denver to SuperBowls, McDaniels, or anyone else wouldn't have even considered trading him. Hell, if Cutler ever got Denver to the playoffs, he probably wouldn't have been traded either.

guitarj
10-09-2009, 12:59 PM
No, Elway is credited with getting Dan Reeves fired. I wouldn't really label that as classy. But dont get me wrong. If Cutler could have got McDaniels fired, I'm sure he would have.

Reeves had plenty to do with getting himself fired.

We are really comparing apples to oranges anyway, Elway was not in the league 3 years when all that went down. When Reeves was fired, it was pretty much agreed by everyone at that time that Elway had carried his team for years.

silkamilkamonico
10-09-2009, 01:01 PM
Um, no they didnt. You can only compare ratings at this point in the season, but ......

Cutler has an 89.3
Brady had a 85.9
Manning had a 84.1

C'mon man you're smarter than that. How many division titles and playoff games did those 2 QB's have by their 4th year?

I do like how your using stats to show that Kyle Orton is indeed a better QB than Jay Cutler once you get him out of Chicago though. I mean, I don't agree with that, but whatever.

guitarj
10-09-2009, 01:03 PM
Like during the first few Superbowls.

Sure, like how Elway Allowed San Fran to score 55 points on him.:laugh:

claymore
10-09-2009, 01:08 PM
C'mon man you're smarter than that. How many division titles and playoff games did those 2 QB's have by their 4th year?

I do like how your using stats to show that Kyle Orton is indeed a better QB than Jay Cutler once you get him out of Chicago though. I mean, I don't agree with that, but whatever.

Only Brady did. And Cutler doing better with the bears than Orton did in his 4 years there proves the point that it was a stupid trade.

Lets wait to christen Orton god until he has to score more than 6.5 points a game to win.

claymore
10-09-2009, 01:09 PM
Sure, like how Elway Allowed San Fran to score 55 points on him.:laugh:

According to the Anti Cutler guys, you cant use defense as a crutch, Elway still should have won that game.

BroncosRockdaRockies
10-09-2009, 01:18 PM
Bates wasn't fired before McDaniels was hired. Bates was one of the handful of coaches (along with Dennison and a couple others) that were not part of the initial purge, but were being kept on the staff until the new coach was hired and would determine if they stayed or were let go.

Therefore, I am not sure where you are getting this information. From what I saw reported, Bowlen told Cutler that it would be up to the new coach whether Bates was kept on.

Ok maybe he wasn't, I thought he was, but at the same time do you think it is a possiblity that maybe it was mentioned in thier private meeting? I mean the play caling by Bates was very questionable last year and he needed to be fired IMO. I think we all knew he wouldn't be calling the plays if he was retained.

guitarj
10-09-2009, 01:45 PM
According to the Anti Cutler guys, you cant use defense as a crutch, Elway still should have won that game.

Well, bottom line... McD and Cutler were oil and water. Orton and the offense as a whole need to turn it up a notch, and I believe they will. Although I think Orton will improve with more time in this system, do I think he is the long term answer?.... I am definetly not sold yet!

claymore
10-09-2009, 01:58 PM
Well, bottom line... McD and Cutler were oil and water. Orton and the offense as a whole need to turn it up a notch, and I believe they will. Although I think Orton will improve with more time in this system, do I think he is the long term answer?.... I am definetly not sold yet!

I want him to be the answer bad. I really want him to start lighting it up.

Imagine if JMCD makes him into a pro bowl HOF type guy..... Man....

I know its a far fetched dream, but its sweet none the less.

SoCalImport
10-09-2009, 02:06 PM
Only Brady did. And Cutler doing better with the bears than Orton did in his 4 years there proves the point that it was a stupid trade.

That was sarcasm..right?

claymore
10-09-2009, 02:09 PM
That was sarcasm..right?

No why would it be? Let me hear the "Orton won every single game he ever played in all by himself" theory.

Lonestar
10-09-2009, 02:25 PM
Reeves had plenty to do with getting himself fired.

We are really comparing apples to oranges anyway, Elway was not in the league 3 years when all that went down. When Reeves was fired, it was pretty much agreed by everyone at that time that Elway had carried his team for years.

IIRC Elway was in the league for almost 8-9 years when reeves got fired..

Dumbo got hired as his replacement and Mike came back two years after that when Dumbo was fired..



I want him to be the answer bad. I really want him to start lighting it up.

Imagine if JMCD makes him into a pro bowl HOF type guy..... Man....

I know its a far fetched dream, but its sweet none the less.

I think as KO and the receivers all get on the same Playbooks page and they have had time to work on their timing things will indeed turn around..

I think that KO could be Joshes next long term starting QB.. so far the only thing he has not done with consistency is hit the open man in stride.. it has not been because he could not get the ball there for the most part he over threw them and that is just timing between the QB and WR..

please remember that this was BM 4th game with him, and of those 4 games he was on the sidelines more than he was on the field..

also a small but significant tidbit KO had a dislocation of the joint on his forefinger that broke the skin.. he is currently wearing a glove that he has never worn before..

regardless of what he says it has to be an issue to some degree..

claymore
10-09-2009, 02:30 PM
IIRC Elway was in the league for almost 8-9 years when reeves got fired..

Dumbo got hired as his replacement and Mike came back two years after that when Dumbo was fired..




I think as KO and the receivers all get on the same Playbooks page and they have had time to work on their timing things will indeed turn around..

I think that KO could be Joshes next long term starting QB.. so far the only thing he has not done with consistency is hit the open man in stride.. it has not been because he could not get the ball there for the most part he over threw them and that is just timing between the QB and WR..

please remember that this was BM 4th game with him, and of those 4 games he was on the sidelines more than he was on the field..

also a small but significant tidbit KO had a dislocation of the joint on his forefinger that broke the skin.. he is currently wearing a glove that he has never worn before..

regardless of what he says it has to be an issue to some degree..
He looked worse before the dislocation. But I agree with the timiing and stuff. I like Kyle, I really hope we got a rags to riches guy (for a lack of better words).

SoCalImport
10-09-2009, 02:33 PM
No why would it be? Let me hear the "Orton won every single game he ever played in all by himself" theory.

The trade was for a lot more than QBs. Also you can't review it without putting it into the context of the friction between Cutty and His new coach and old owner. ...... oh, nevermind..

Can't believe I'm talking about this.

We're 4-0 btw

Tned-Mobile
10-09-2009, 02:42 PM
Ok maybe he wasn't, I thought he was, but at the same time do you think it is a possiblity that maybe it was mentioned in thier private meeting? I mean the play caling by Bates was very questionable last year and he needed to be fired IMO. I think we all knew he wouldn't be calling the plays if he was retained.

Actually, based on forum posts and media reports, the popular belief was that Bowlen would hire a defensive minded head coach, and the Dennison/Turner/Bates offense would be used this season.

The first indication of a problem, was after the Broncos tried to trade for Cassel. After that happened, and things went south, it was rumored that Cutler asked for a trade prior McDaniels trying to trade him to get Cassel. The rumors were it was after Bates left, but that was well after McDaniels was hired, and that doesn't seem be a confirmed rumor. We don't really know.

claymore
10-09-2009, 02:43 PM
The trade was for a lot more than QBs. Also you can't review it without putting it into the context of the friction between Cutty and His new coach and old owner. ...... oh, nevermind..

Can't believe I'm talking about this.

We're 4-0 btw
I never said it was a straight up QB trade. And I dont understand the new Coach old owner comment. Do you mean Lovey Smith and Bowlen or Old coach old owner which is JMCD and Bowlen?

Either way, if JMCD can win over Marshall, he could win over Cutler. WINNING cures everyyyyyyyyything.

BroncoWave
10-09-2009, 03:03 PM
I got that point, but I for one thought Cutler would be far better than Elway. That is why I say I wouldnt have traded him for a championship let alone 2 #1's.

And I don't think he will come close to Elway because the odds of a QB reaching that level are very rare. Sure he had potential but for every QB with a load of potential that becomes John Elway, you have 10 that never sniff a super bowl or a hall of fame career.

If you don't think Cutler is the QB of the future for your team and you have a team willing to give you 2 1's and a solid starter for him, I have no problem with that deal being made.

claymore
10-09-2009, 03:23 PM
And I don't think he will come close to Elway because the odds of a QB reaching that level are very rare. Sure he had potential but for every QB with a load of potential that becomes John Elway, you have 10 that never sniff a super bowl or a hall of fame career.

If you don't think Cutler is the QB of the future for your team and you have a team willing to give you 2 1's and a solid starter for him, I have no problem with that deal being made.

The odds are rare, but he is on pace to do it. As for the SB wins, no one can tell.

I dont have a problem with doing the trade if you are a proven head coach. If we had a winning season this year and JMCD did it, I would be less likely to be upset.

Fact is he is an unproven coach (especially at the time of the trade). It is HARD to find a good QB. A QB people are willing to trade multiple picks, and players for.

I would rather take my chances with the known 3rd year QB, than get picks.

Bowlen took the blame for the final call, so he takes the blame.

Best case scenario Orton Becomes a "hero" here, and Cutler becomes a "hero" there, and in 12 years everyone can say it was the best trade eva.

Bronco Warrior
10-09-2009, 06:16 PM
After this year Orton won't be a breonco anyway so it won't matter and we will have a signal caller that doesn't have a noodle arm! :D Tom Brand "The call me Stater Salad" Has size and a gun for an arm! Barring a big draft QB, he is the future.

Lancane
10-09-2009, 06:30 PM
After this year Orton won't be a breonco anyway so it won't matter and we will have a signal caller that doesn't have a noodle arm! :D Tom Brand "The call me Stater Salad" Has size and a gun for an arm! Barring a big draft QB, he is the future.

Agreed, I don't see McDaniels with the whole debacle nor the price tag due to a starting quarterback in this league retaining Orton. More or less I think he will hope someone will go on the wire for him since he is a RFA and net us a draft pick. Brandstater or Simms will start next year IMHO, whether or not we draft a early round quarterback.

BroncoWave
10-09-2009, 07:23 PM
Agreed, I don't see McDaniels with the whole debacle nor the price tag due to a starting quarterback in this league retaining Orton. More or less I think he will hope someone will go on the wire for him since he is a RFA and net us a draft pick. Brandstater or Simms will start next year IMHO, whether or not we draft a early round quarterback.

Ok well Simms obviously won't be starting next year because if he isn't better than Orton now he won't be in a year either. As for Brandy, maybe, but I still don't think he will be 100% ready. 4-0, only QB in the league not to throw a pick and fans still write you off. Gotta love being a QB in Denver! :rolleyes:

Lancane
10-09-2009, 10:13 PM
Ok well Simms obviously won't be starting next year because if he isn't better than Orton now he won't be in a year either. As for Brandy, maybe, but I still don't think he will be 100% ready. 4-0, only QB in the league not to throw a pick and fans still write you off. Gotta love being a QB in Denver! :rolleyes:

Well the defense had nothing to do with the wins or luck...glad to hear it, damn...wonder if Stokely knew his effort, or Marshalls was all thanks to the 'Great Kyle - The God - Orton'...whoops.

silkamilkamonico
10-09-2009, 11:44 PM
Hopefully Brandstater's time comes next year!

Tned
10-09-2009, 11:46 PM
Hopefully Brandstater's time comes next year!

Hopefully, but it's a long shot.

BroncoWave
10-10-2009, 12:28 AM
Well the defense had nothing to do with the wins or luck...glad to hear it, damn...wonder if Stokely knew his effort, or Marshalls was all thanks to the 'Great Kyle - The God - Orton'...whoops.

Where did I say that Stokley, Marshall, or the defense had nothing to do with the wins? Please don't put words in my mouth.

I simply said that Orton has played good football so far but apparently some fans aren't happy unless he chucks it for 300 yards a game like Cutler.

Does Orton have room to improve? Sure, but he's improving every week and once the glove comes off I think he will be even better.

BroncosRockdaRockies
10-13-2009, 01:06 PM
Sign Orton to a Franchise Qb deal then noone can say he isn't a Franchise QB! I mean my god Cutler gets a Franchise Contract with a losing record I would really like to see what a guy Like Kyle Orton will get for 0 Int's and for actually having a winning record. Oh and not to forget they have been in the league approx same amount of time ( 1 year difference I think?)


ORTON AT A GLANCE:

•A fifth-year quarterback who posted a 21-12 (.636) record as a starter in four seasons with Chicago, including a 15-2 (.882) mark at home that is the best in the NFL since he entered the league in 2005.
•Guided the Bears to a winning season in each of his two years as a full-time starter, including the 2005 campaign when he registered a 10-5 record in 15 starts for a Chicago squad that won the NFC North title.
•Has thrown 22 touchdowns and only two interceptions in the red zone for his career that represent the eighth-best touchdown-to-interception ratio (11.0) in the league since 2005.
•Totaled the fourth-most completions (272) in Bears history for a season as a 15-game starter in 2008, completing 272-of-465 passes for 2,972 yards with a personal-best 18 touchdowns.
•Set a Chicago franchise record for consecutive passes without an interception (205) in 2008 while also ranking second in the NFL with a 116.1 passer rating in the first quarter.
•Guided the Bears to eight consecutive wins as a starter in 2005 that marked the secondlongest winning streak by a rookie quarterback since the 1970 NFL merger.
•Started for three seasons at Purdue University, finishing his collegiate career ranked third in school history in both passing yards (9,337) and touchdown passes (63).
•Joined the Broncos on April 2, 2009, in a trade with Chicago that brought Orton, first-round picks in the 2009 and ‘10 NFL Drafts as well as a third-round selection in ‘09 to Denver in exchange for quarterback Jay Cutler and a fifth-round pick in the ‘09 draft.
•Selected by Chicago in the fourth round (106th overall) of the 2005 NFL Draft.

T.K.O.
10-13-2009, 01:40 PM
simms makes more than twice what orton makes.....and brandstater will need at least another year to be groomed.....if we get to the playoffs (which is now highly likely) the broncos would be foolish to trade away a guy who knows the team,knows the system,is young and has played very well in the face of extreme odds !:salute:

Lonestar
10-13-2009, 02:05 PM
simms makes more than twice what orton makes.....and brandstater will need at least another year to be groomed.....if we get to the playoffs (which is now highly likely) the broncos would be foolish to trade away a guy who knows the team,knows the system,is young and has played very well in the face of extreme odds !:salute:


I doubt they would trade him unless the "new" tom is ready to go next year.. Billy never heistated in trading talent for draft choices.. I suspect Josh would do much the same..

topscribe
10-13-2009, 02:11 PM
I doubt they would trade him unless the "new" tom is ready to go next year.. Billy never heistated in trading talent for draft choices.. I suspect Josh would do much the same..

They aren't going to let Orton go anywhere if he continues to play well, and I
suspect he will. I do see them jettisoning Simms and paying Orton the difference
in their respective salaries.

The "new Tom" has talent, but he came into the league extremely raw. And,
unless Orton pulls a "Griese" on us, he is going to become hard to displace.

IMHO.

-----

NightTrainLayne
10-13-2009, 02:41 PM
They aren't going to let Orton go anywhere if he continues to play well, and I
suspect he will. I do see them jettisoning Simms and paying Orton the difference
in their respective salaries.

The "new Tom" has talent, but he came into the league extremely raw. And,
unless Orton pulls a "Griese" on us, he is going to become hard to displace.

IMHO.

-----


Yes. Orton is still pretty darned young. If he continues to grow and succeed in this offense it would be foolish to trade him. He's got LOTS of productive years ahead of him.

Worst case, Brandstater turns it on and steals his job in a couple of seasons. ..then we've got a top-notch back-up that can win games.

But I don't see that happening. The Patriots haven't traded Brady yet.

topscribe
10-13-2009, 02:58 PM
Yes. Orton is still pretty darned young. If he continues to grow and succeed in this offense it would be foolish to trade him. He's got LOTS of productive years ahead of him.

Worst case, Brandstater turns it on and steals his job in a couple of seasons. ..then we've got a top-notch back-up that can win games.

But I don't see that happening. The Patriots haven't traded Brady yet.

You mean best case? :)

It's always good when any position is upgraded by a better player, isn't it?

However, if Orton keeps this up, it will be hard to beat him out.

We'll see . . .

-----

NightTrainLayne
10-13-2009, 03:01 PM
You mean best case? :)

It's always good when any position is upgraded by a better player, isn't it?

However, if Orton keeps this up, it will be hard to beat him out.

We'll see . . .

-----

Worst case for Orton.