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Lonestar
12-18-2007, 04:21 PM
Only Champ

Starters in red


Offense
Pos. Starter(s) Reserves
Quarterback Tom Brady, New England
Peyton Manning, Indianapolis
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh
Running back LaDainian Tomlinson, San Diego
Joseph Addai, Indianapolis
Willie Parker, Pittsburgh
Fullback Lorenzo Neal, San Die go
Wide receiver Randy Moss, New England
Reggie Wayne, Indianapolis
Braylon Edwards, Cleveland
T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Cincinnati
Tight end Antonio Gates, San Diego
Tony Gonzalez, Kansas City
Tackle Matt Light, New England
Jason Peters, Buffalo Jonathan Ogden, Baltimore
Guard Alan Faneca, Pittsburgh
Logan Mankins, New England
Kris Dielman, San Diego
Center Jeff Saturday, Indianapols
Dan Koppen, New England
Defense

Pos. Starter
Defensive end Jared Allen Kansas City
Kyle Vanden Bosch, Tennessee
Jason Taylor, Miami
Defensive tackle Albert Haynesworth, Tennessee Vince Wilfork, New England
Jamal Williams, San Diego
Outside linebacker James Harrison, Pittsburgh
Mike Vrabel, New England
Shawne Merriman, San Diego

Inside linebacker DeMeco Ryans,

Houston Ray Lewis, Baltimore
Cornerback Champ Bailey, Denver
Asante Samuel, New England
Antonio Cromartie, San Diego
Free safety Ed Reed, Baltimore
Strong safety Bob Sanders, Indianapolis
Troy Polamalu, Pittsburgh
Special teams
Pos. Starter(s) Reserves
Punter Shane Lechler, Oakland
Placekicker Rob Bironas, Tennessee (Highlights)
Kick returner Josh Cribbs, Cleveland (Highlights)
Special teamer Kassim Osgood, San Diego (Highlights)

LoyalSoldier
12-18-2007, 04:43 PM
Kind of funny how someone can be nearly leading the entire NFL in sacks and still doesn't get to go. Or how you can be #4 in tackles and still miss out.

arapaho2
12-18-2007, 05:05 PM
kinda? let me see doom s got 8 less tackles....but 2 more sacks...5 PDs to KVb 0...1 int to KVB 0 and 4 ff to kvb 3

i smell a dispute

LoyalSoldier
12-18-2007, 05:07 PM
Actually I just looked it up. DJ is tied for 1st in the AFC. Man the probowl is such a sham.

Cleveland Rocks
12-18-2007, 05:15 PM
Actually I just looked it up. DJ is tied for 1st in the AFC. Man the probowl is such a sham.

Tackles are no means to determine if a linebacker is good.

Andra Davis led the NFL in tackles for years and lost to a player with far less tackles and when I threw a fit about it Bronco fans on the previous board said:

"Just because Davis had a lot of tackles doesn't mean he was a better player. Al Wilson made far more meaningful tackles."

So, I guess DJ Williams had better learn to start making more plays rather than tackles.

Watchthemiddle
12-18-2007, 05:38 PM
Actually I just looked it up. DJ is tied for 1st in the AFC. Man the probowl is such a sham.

It is a sham. As good as Champ is, he does not deserve to go this year. If its based off of stats, then Bly would go over CHamp and we all know that will never happen.

I was wondering who would go from the Broncos and the only name that came to mind was Elvis. If the WR position wasn't so competitive in the AFC I would say maybe Marshall as a reserve. Who is having a better year...Marshall or T.J. Housmanadsigasgdah??

Other then that, no one else really deserves it. Even CHamp. Oh well...another bullet on his resume.

dogfish
12-18-2007, 06:12 PM
Tackles are no means to determine if a linebacker is good.

Andra Davis led the NFL in tackles for years and lost to a player with far less tackles and when I threw a fit about it Bronco fans on the previous board said:

"Just because Davis had a lot of tackles doesn't mean he was a better player. Al Wilson made far more meaningful tackles."

So, I guess DJ Williams had better learn to start making more plays rather than tackles.


i was one of the first telling you that, and i still believe it. . . dj has had a pretty good year, but i don't think he's played at what i consider a pro bowl level-- his tackle stats are inflated because our piss poor defense can't get off the field. . .

LoyalSoldier
12-18-2007, 06:14 PM
i was one of the first telling you that, and i still believe it. . . dj has had a pretty good year, but i don't think he's played at what i consider a pro bowl level-- his tackle stats are inflated because our piss poor defense can't get off the field. . .

Same could be said of many others on this year's list.

jhns
12-18-2007, 06:39 PM
It is fairly obvious, and old news, that the pro bowl is 50% play, 50% popularity contest. If you are well known you have a good chance of making it or if you have really good stats you have a good chance of making it. Either way, you are in the pro bowl. It has always been like this and most likely will continue to be like this forever.


I agree with the people that say DJ didn't play at a bro bowl level. In our last game one of the anouncers said "DJ has gotten better in every game and will be in a pro bowl soon". I would agree with that. He isn't worthy now but he is certainly improving a lot every game. He also has the size and speed to be dominant. Now if he continues improving, he will see his share of them.

Elvis is very deserving but just doesn't have the name yet. If (or should I say when) he continues to do what he has been doing, he will also see his share of pro bowls. People are really starting to notice him and I have been hearing his name mentioned more and more by random experts. If we had won double digit games, I would guarantee that he would be in.

Marshall was deserving but as another stated, the AFC just has to many REALLLY good receivers.

Watchthemiddle
12-18-2007, 06:45 PM
Another thing that helps Pro Bowl voting is wins. Our win/lose record doesn't help. It sucks, but if you win 12-13 games a year, your players are more recognized then if you only win 6. Public voting could say,..." the Broncos only have 6 wins, how can they have any "stars"..ie: Pro Bowlers other then Champ"?

LoyalSoldier
12-18-2007, 06:58 PM
The thing is I can think of several other players from other teams that really got snubbed. Jag's RBs for example.

NameUsedBefore
12-18-2007, 07:06 PM
Once again, the Pro Bowl fails. I don't see how people can suggest that it is not serious, then later use it as a measure when deciding if someone if HoF worthy or not. Utterly ridiculous. Either change the format to where it more formal and not a popularity contest, or make it clear that the Pro Bowl is a complete joke.

Lonestar
12-18-2007, 07:34 PM
Once again folks you for get the popular vote..

Mawue from the Jets was a perennial Pro Bowl center yet Nalen was as good if not better..

Baily is remembered from his days in WAS and John Lynch from his days in TPA and heavy duty population centers..


When DEN voters are competing with population centers like the east coast where everyone sees those east coast players week in and week out..

With us playing teams home and away that are spread out over a 850 mile to SAN and 950 to OAK With almost nothing in between population wise..

But it is 292 miles to BUF from NYC and 191 to Boston and all of those folks back there seeing them week after week they have loyalty to the east coast teams.

Look at all the east coast players here in red. I consider anyone east of the Mississippi to be close enough certainly closer than DEN is to SAN or OAK..v

Offense
Pos. Starter(s) Reserves
Quarterback Tom Brady, New England
Peyton Manning, Indianapolis
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh
Running back LaDainian Tomlinson, San Diego
Joseph Addai, Indianapolis
Willie Parker, Pittsburgh
Fullback Lorenzo Neal, San Die go
Wide receiver Randy Moss, New England
Reggie Wayne, Indianapolis
Braylon Edwards, Cleveland
T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Cincinnati
Tight end Antonio Gates, San Diego
Tony Gonzalez, Kansas City
Tackle Matt Light, New England
Jason Peters, Buffalo Jonathan Ogden, Baltimore
Guard Alan Faneca, Pittsburgh
Logan Mankins, New England
Kris Dielman, San Diego
Center Jeff Saturday, Indianapols
Dan Koppen, New England
Defense

Pos. Starter
Defensive end Jared Allen Kansas City
Kyle Vanden Bosch, Tennessee
Jason Taylor, Miami
Defensive tackle Albert Haynesworth, Tennessee Vince Wilfork, New England
Jamal Williams, San Diego
Outside linebacker James Harrison, Pittsburgh
Mike Vrabel, New England
Shawne Merriman, San Diego

Inside linebacker DeMeco Ryans,

Houston Ray Lewis, Baltimore
Cornerback Champ Bailey, Denver
Asante Samuel, New England
Antonio Cromartie, San Diego
Free safety Ed Reed, Baltimore
Strong safety Bob Sanders, Indianapolis
Troy Polamalu, Pittsburgh
Special teams
Pos. Starter(s) Reserves
Punter Shane Lechler, Oakland
Placekicker Rob Bironas, Tennessee (Highlights)
Kick returner Josh Cribbs, Cleveland (Highlights)
Special teamer Kassim Osgood, San Diego (Highlights)

Astrass
12-18-2007, 07:47 PM
Once again folks you for get the popular vote..

Mawue from the Jets was a perennial Pro Bowl center yet Nalen was as good if not better..

Baily is remembered from his days in WAS and John Lynch from his days in TPA and heavy duty population centers..


When DEN voters are competing with population centers like the east coast where everyone sees those east coast players week in and week out..

With us playing teams home and away that are spread out over a 850 mile to SAN and 950 to OAK With almost nothing in between population wise..

But it is 292 miles to BUF from NYC and 191 to Boston and all of those folks back there seeing them week after week they have loyalty to the east coast teams.

Look at all the east coast players here in red. I consider anyone east of the Mississippi to be close enough certainly closer than DEN is to SAN or OAK..v

Offense
Pos. Starter(s) Reserves
Quarterback Tom Brady, New England
Peyton Manning, Indianapolis
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh
Running back LaDainian Tomlinson, San Diego
Joseph Addai, Indianapolis
Willie Parker, Pittsburgh
Fullback Lorenzo Neal, San Die go
Wide receiver Randy Moss, New England
Reggie Wayne, Indianapolis
Braylon Edwards, Cleveland
T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Cincinnati
Tight end Antonio Gates, San Diego
Tony Gonzalez, Kansas City
Tackle Matt Light, New England
Jason Peters, Buffalo Jonathan Ogden, Baltimore
Guard Alan Faneca, Pittsburgh
Logan Mankins, New England
Kris Dielman, San Diego
Center Jeff Saturday, Indianapols
Dan Koppen, New England
Defense

Pos. Starter
Defensive end Jared Allen Kansas City
Kyle Vanden Bosch, Tennessee
Jason Taylor, Miami
Defensive tackle Albert Haynesworth, Tennessee Vince Wilfork, New England
Jamal Williams, San Diego
Outside linebacker James Harrison, Pittsburgh
Mike Vrabel, New England
Shawne Merriman, San Diego

Inside linebacker DeMeco Ryans,

Houston Ray Lewis, Baltimore
Cornerback Champ Bailey, Denver
Asante Samuel, New England
Antonio Cromartie, San Diego
Free safety Ed Reed, Baltimore
Strong safety Bob Sanders, Indianapolis
Troy Polamalu, Pittsburgh
Special teams
Pos. Starter(s) Reserves
Punter Shane Lechler, Oakland
Placekicker Rob Bironas, Tennessee (Highlights)
Kick returner Josh Cribbs, Cleveland (Highlights)
Special teamer Kassim Osgood, San Diego (Highlights)


Pro bowl voting is a joke just like NBA all-star voting. But lets not get one thing twisted. Bailey is remembered for his career years as a Bronco =)

Hawgdriver
12-18-2007, 08:04 PM
The thing is I can think of several other players from other teams that really got snubbed. Jag's RBs for example.

It's a shame that Patrick Willis didn't get the nod.

Lonestar
12-18-2007, 08:07 PM
Pro bowl voting is a joke just like NBA all-star voting. But lets not get one thing twisted. Bailey is remembered for his career years as a Bronco =)

More folk know him as a former redskin that plays in DEN and has had a couple of good seasons..

BaiLeY324
12-18-2007, 09:22 PM
More folk know him as a former redskin that plays in DEN and has had a couple of good seasons..

He separated from the rest of the corners in league over the past 3-4 years, as a Bronco.

He's going to go in the Hall of Fame as a Bronco, and will always be known as a Bronco

Lonestar
12-18-2007, 11:42 PM
He separated from the rest of the corners in league over the past 3-4 years, as a Bronco.

He's going to go in the Hall of Fame as a Bronco, and will always be known as a Bronco

Lets try this again slower

Champ has been in Denver 4 years now, but was a Redskin for 5.. He was a Pro bowl player for 4 of those five years in WAS.. Right now he is even 4 DEN-4 WAS.. He did not separate himself in DEN, he was a great CB there and the Reputation carried over from WAS days..

You think way to much of the Den mystique, there one or two franchises that have more fans than Washington has. Denver is not one of them..

The Washington area (TV broadcast) probably has 4 times the population that DEN has. Do you think Champ being the only DEN player to get in was because of his stellar play this year. Him being a starter in the game..

Please do not be naive, also..

Depending on how long he is in DEN will determine where his hat hangs in Canton..To Washington Fans he will always be remembered as a Redskin.

Broncos Mtnman
12-18-2007, 11:49 PM
That's one more than deserved to go.

Lonestar
12-18-2007, 11:53 PM
That's one more than deserved to go.


I agree he did nothing this year that was special, other than run support..

He is riding on his rep from way back although he was a true Shut down guy last year..

LoyalSoldier
12-19-2007, 01:12 AM
Champ has been in Denver 4 years now, but was a Redskin for 5.. He was a Pro bowl player for 4 of those five years in WAS.. Right now he is even 4 DEN-4 WAS.. He did not separate himself in DEN, he was a great CB there and the Reputation carried over from WAS days..

..............

Depending on how long he is in DEN will determine where his hat hangs in Canton..To Washington Fans he will always be remembered as a Redskin.

Yet where was the prime of his career and where will he most likely finish his career? He put up more interceptions here in Denver than he ever did in Washington. He put up 18 interceptions in Washington while he put up 24 here. He has scored more TDs here than he did in Washington, his best statistical year has been here in Denver, and odds are better that he will log more years here in Denver than in Washington.

I agree that he got his fame in Washington, but odds are he is going to have a larger body of work here in Denver.

Lonestar
12-19-2007, 10:51 AM
Yet where was the prime of his career and where will he most likely finish his career? He put up more interceptions here in Denver than he ever did in Washington. He put up 18 interceptions in Washington while he put up 24 here. He has scored more TDs here than he did in Washington, his best statistical year has been here in Denver, and odds are better that he will log more years here in Denver than in Washington.

I agree that he got his fame in Washington, but odds are he is going to have a larger body of work here in Denver.


I'm not debating that he has had his best years here, I'm stating that once redskin always a redskin.. The voters and that is what counts remember his name from Redskin days and "OH BY THE WAY" he is having a great year in DEN..

He might be on the Pro Bowl Squad due to his tenure in DEN, but this year in particular he would not be a starter if it was not for the voting from the east coast crowd.. The only thing he did memorable this year in DEN was get burnt a couple of time playing more as a DB/Safety worried about run first and hoping to recover fast enough after taking the run fake..

He is a great CB on of the best ever, but he is stuck on a lousy defense because the DL sucks.. Would he have made the Pro Bowl as starter with this years numbers on stats alone? Not a chance.. You know I Know it..

Escobar
12-19-2007, 10:57 AM
ben rottenburger? lol what a joke........darnell dockett got cheated out aswell did mario williams

Hawgdriver
12-19-2007, 10:59 AM
ben rottenburger? lol what a joke........darnell dockett got cheated out aswell did mario williams

How many made it from the Brownies line?

Escobar
12-19-2007, 11:01 AM
How many made it from the Brownies line?

0 im not surprised....

topscribe
12-19-2007, 11:38 AM
ben rottenburger? lol what a joke........darnell dockett got cheated out aswell did mario williams

I agree there are better QBs than Ben, but few whose teams have better W-L
records. That probably should be a criterion, but I think it's overblown since a
player, even a QB, is largely at the mercy of 44 other guys and a coaching
staff in any one game.

But . . . it is what it is.


P.S. I bet you'll see Mario in the next one . . .

-----

broncofanatic1987
12-19-2007, 11:42 AM
I agree he did nothing this year that was special, other than run support..

He is riding on his rep from way back although he was a true Shut down guy last year..

Do you mean way back as in last year when he tied for the lead in interceptions as a Denver Bronco?

He's is not riding on a reputation from Washington alone. He's riding on a reputation that he's built his entire career as Bronco and a Redskin. A reputation for being the best cornerback in the game today. Just as some people argue that tackles aren't the only measure by which to judge DJ, I'm sure an argument can be made that interceptions aren't the only measure by which to judge Champ.

I'm not going to say that he doesn't deserve to go to the Pro Bowl, because anyone who makes it to the Pro Bowl deserves it just as much anyone else who made it. The Pro Bowl is what it is. Some players make because they're popular among the fans and other players and coaches. Others make it because they had a great year that stood out above everyone else. Champ made it in according to the rules that exist, so he deserves it. What cornerback in the league this year did anything to place doubt in people's minds that Champ is the best cornerback in the game? As long as most people believe Champ is the best cornerback in the game today, he's going to make the Pro Bowl.

I believe coaches and players account for two thirds of the vote(not entirely sure though). If most of them make their decisions based on who they believe is the best at each position, they're going to pick Champ every time until he either has a bad year or someone comes along and has an outstanding year that can't be ignored.

In-com-plete
12-19-2007, 12:05 PM
Once again folks you for get the popular vote..

Mawue from the Jets was a perennial Pro Bowl center yet Nalen was as good if not better..

Baily is remembered from his days in WAS and John Lynch from his days in TPA and heavy duty population centers..


When DEN voters are competing with population centers like the east coast where everyone sees those east coast players week in and week out..

With us playing teams home and away that are spread out over a 850 mile to SAN and 950 to OAK With almost nothing in between population wise..

But it is 292 miles to BUF from NYC and 191 to Boston and all of those folks back there seeing them week after week they have loyalty to the east coast teams.

Look at all the east coast players here in red. I consider anyone east of the Mississippi to be close enough certainly closer than DEN is to SAN or OAK..v

Offense
Pos. Starter(s) Reserves
Quarterback Tom Brady, New England
Peyton Manning, Indianapolis
Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh
Running back LaDainian Tomlinson, San Diego
Joseph Addai, Indianapolis
Willie Parker, Pittsburgh
Fullback Lorenzo Neal, San Die go
Wide receiver Randy Moss, New England
Reggie Wayne, Indianapolis
Braylon Edwards, Cleveland
T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Cincinnati
Tight end Antonio Gates, San Diego
Tony Gonzalez, Kansas City
Tackle Matt Light, New England
Jason Peters, Buffalo Jonathan Ogden, Baltimore
Guard Alan Faneca, Pittsburgh
Logan Mankins, New England
Kris Dielman, San Diego
Center Jeff Saturday, Indianapols
Dan Koppen, New England
Defense

Pos. Starter
Defensive end Jared Allen Kansas City
Kyle Vanden Bosch, Tennessee
Jason Taylor, Miami
Defensive tackle Albert Haynesworth, Tennessee Vince Wilfork, New England
Jamal Williams, San Diego
Outside linebacker James Harrison, Pittsburgh
Mike Vrabel, New England
Shawne Merriman, San Diego

Inside linebacker DeMeco Ryans,

Houston Ray Lewis, Baltimore
Cornerback Champ Bailey, Denver
Asante Samuel, New England
Antonio Cromartie, San Diego
Free safety Ed Reed, Baltimore
Strong safety Bob Sanders, Indianapolis
Troy Polamalu, Pittsburgh
Special teams
Pos. Starter(s) Reserves
Punter Shane Lechler, Oakland
Placekicker Rob Bironas, Tennessee (Highlights)
Kick returner Josh Cribbs, Cleveland (Highlights)
Special teamer Kassim Osgood, San Diego (Highlights)

I didn't read past your post JR so it may have already been said, but Roethlisberger should also be in red.

Now, you do realize there's only 5 AFC teams west of the Mississippi. So that's 5 out of 16 teams (31.25%). Ironically, 13 of the 42 AFC pro bowlers are from those 5 "western" teams. That's 30.95%.

And then when you factor in that only one of the five western teams is going to the playoffs, 30% isn't to bad.

Retired_Member_001
12-19-2007, 12:50 PM
I think this was expected to be honest. All the big name players get to go and all the good young players who haven't made such a name for themselves don't get to go.

I think I'm going to stop watching the popularity bowl.

Lonestar
12-19-2007, 01:33 PM
I didn't read past your post JR so it may have already been said, but Roethlisberger should also be in red.

Now, you do realize there's only 5 AFC teams west of the Mississippi. So that's 5 out of 16 teams (31.25%). Ironically, 13 of the 42 AFC pro bowlers are from those 5 "western" teams. That's 30.95%.

And then when you factor in that only one of the five western teams is going to the playoffs, 30% isn't to bad.

Your right Ben should have been RED..Thanks I will edit that.

I really still think of SEA being an AFC team and for some reason PHX also While I know they are not I associate them with AFC.. Your right About only being 5 west of the Mississippi, it just seems like more. One of the major reasons we do not get any respect, the other this year is we STINK...

Do you really think that SAN has all that many Pro bowlers? Perhaps I should say SHOULD HAVE..

Lot of talent on the team but they have done nothing this year..

Lonestar
12-19-2007, 01:41 PM
Do you mean way back as in last year when he tied for the lead in interceptions as a Denver Bronco?

He's is not riding on a reputation from Washington alone. He's riding on a reputation that he's built his entire career as Bronco and a Redskin. A reputation for being the best cornerback in the game today. Just as some people argue that tackles aren't the only measure by which to judge DJ, I'm sure and argument can be made that interceptions aren't the only measure by which to judge Champ.

I'm not going to say that he doesn't deserve to go to the Pro Bowl, because anyone who makes it to the Pro Bowl deserves it just as much anyone else who made it. The Pro Bowl is what it is. Some players make because they're popular among the fans and other players and coaches. Others make it because they had a great year that stood out above everyone else. Champ made it in according to the rules that exist, so he deserves it. What cornerback in the league this year did anything to place doubt in people's minds that Champ is the best cornerback in the game? As long as most people believe Champ is the best cornerback in the game today, he's going to make the Pro Bowl.

I believe coaches and players account for two thirds of the vote(not entirely sure though). If most of them make their decisions based on who they believe is the best at each position, they're going to pick Champ every time until he either has a bad year or someone comes along and has an outstanding year that can't be ignored.

We will have to agreee to disagree on Champ.
While the players and coaches count, the fans vote has a huge impact on it also..

Champ had a really bad year compared to his normal standards.. Mostly because his DLINE could not stop anyone this year and he played more Free safety covering the RB's this year than he could WR's..

He had to play run first almost all year.. he has 70 tackles this year total 57 solo. How many of those were runs and how many Passes?

broncofanatic1987
12-19-2007, 02:12 PM
We will have to agreee to disagree on Champ.
While the players and coaches count, the fans vote has a huge impact on it also..

Champ had a really bad year compared to his normal standards.. Mostly because his DLINE could not stop anyone this year and he played more Free safety covering the RB's this year than he could WR's..

He had to play run first almost all year.. he has 70 tackles this year total 57 solo. How many of those were runs and how many Passes?

How many times did teams throw at Champ this year? I know last year there were at least 20 cornerbacks that were thrown at more often than Champ. He still tied for the lead in interceptions.

With the run defense as bad as it is this year, he probably had a lot fewer opportunities just based on the fact that teams don't have to throw the ball very much in order to beat the Broncos.

I would venture to guess that when teams did throw the ball, they were still throwing more to receivers not covered by Champ. The question is: How much of that was about teams not looking his way versus not being able to throw his way because he had good coverage on his receiver?

You could look at it this way: Why should Champ be punished for the poor play of the front seven? He's the best cornerback in the game and everyone knows it. It's not his fault that the front seven aren't doing their jobs.

Lonestar
12-19-2007, 02:32 PM
How many times did teams throw at Champ this year? I know last year there were at least 20 cornerbacks that were thrown at more often than Champ. He still tied for the lead in interceptions.

With the run defense as bad as it is this year, he probably had a lot fewer opportunities just based on the fact that teams don't have to throw the ball very much in order to beat the Broncos.

I would venture to guess that when teams did throw the ball, they were still throwing more to receivers not covered by Champ. The question is: How much of that was about teams not looking his way versus not being able to throw his way because he had good coverage on his receiver?

You could look at it this way: Why should Champ be punished for the poor play of the front seven? He's the best cornerback in the game and everyone knows it. It's not his fault that the front seven aren't doing their jobs.

What do you not understand we are talking about this YEAR 2007 when Champ had a sub par year at best.. For many reasons

It doe not matter to the real world about his potential it is what he did..

He is a great CB no doubt and most likely a HOF guy if he continues to play for a few more years like He DID LAST YEAR..

Based on production this year he did not deserve a first ballot Starting job in the Pro Bowl IMO..

I'm not gonna argue with you about it, looking at it with a dispassionate eye, everyone knows he got in on rep alone this year.. If you do not understand that, we will have to agree to disagree..

NameUsedBefore
12-19-2007, 02:39 PM
I thought Champ had a great year for a cornerback. Not a great Champ Bailey year, but a great year for a cornerback. I don't know who I would put in over him at the Pro Bowl, really.


As for Ben Roethlisberger: he's actually having a GREAT season, why do people question him being in the Pro Bowl?

broncofanatic1987
12-19-2007, 02:51 PM
What do you not understand we are talking about this YEAR 2007 when Champ had a sub par year at best.. For many reasons

It doe not matter to the real world about his potential it is what he did..

He is a great CB no doubt and most likely a HOF guy if he continues to play for a few more years like He DID LAST YEAR..

Based on production this year he did not deserve a first ballot Starting job in the Pro Bowl IMO..

I'm not gonna argue with you about it, looking at it with a dispassionate eye, everyone knows he got in on rep alone this year.. If you do not understand that, we will have to agree to disagree..

I never said anything about potential. In the year 2007, he's still the best cornerback in the game today and that's why he's in the Pro Bowl.

He deserves it because he got in according the same rules by which every other Pro Bowl selection was selected.

The Pro Bowl has always been more about popularity than anything else. What other cornerback has done anything this year to prove he's better than Champ? I'm not going to say that Champ doesn't deserve it just because he doesn't have a bunch of interceptions this year. Perhaps he demonstrated his superiority at the position in other ways. 70 tackles(57 solo) is a step in that direction even if it is mostly against running plays.

Watchthemiddle
12-19-2007, 03:23 PM
We will have to agreee to disagree on Champ.
While the players and coaches count, the fans vote has a huge impact on it also..
Champ had a really bad year compared to his normal standards.. Mostly because his DLINE could not stop anyone this year and he played more Free safety covering the RB's this year than he could WR's..

He had to play run first almost all year.. he has 70 tackles this year total 57 solo. How many of those were runs and how many Passes?

Everyone gets 1/3 of a vote. Fans, coaches, and players.

Hawgdriver
12-19-2007, 03:31 PM
As for Ben Roethlisberger: he's actually having a GREAT season, why do people question him being in the Pro Bowl?

Good point. He's played well even though his line can't provide consistent protection.

broncosfanscott
12-19-2007, 08:54 PM
It is fairly obvious, and old news, that the pro bowl is 50% play, 50% popularity contest. If you are well known you have a good chance of making it or if you have really good stats you have a good chance of making it. Either way, you are in the pro bowl. It has always been like this and most likely will continue to be like this forever.


I agree with the people that say DJ didn't play at a bro bowl level. In our last game one of the anouncers said "DJ has gotten better in every game and will be in a pro bowl soon". I would agree with that. He isn't worthy now but he is certainly improving a lot every game. He also has the size and speed to be dominant. Now if he continues improving, he will see his share of them.

Elvis is very deserving but just doesn't have the name yet. If (or should I say when) he continues to do what he has been doing, he will also see his share of pro bowls. People are really starting to notice him and I have been hearing his name mentioned more and more by random experts. If we had won double digit games, I would guarantee that he would be in.

Marshall was deserving but as another stated, the AFC just has to many REALLLY good receivers.

Totally agree with you. Also, if your team is playing well then the odds of multiple pro bowlers is a given.

Marshall and Dumervil will get their shot next year.

broncofanatic1987
12-21-2007, 08:07 PM
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2007/12/21/ramblings/stat-analysis/5920/


Best Success Rate

Charles Woodson, GB: 70%
Roderick Hood, ARI: 66%
Fakhir Brown, STL: 65%
Mike McKenzie, NO: 64%
Anthony Henry, DAL: 63%
Jabari Greer, BUF: 63%
Dunta Robinson, HOU: 63%
Richard Marshall, CAR: 63%
Champ Bailey, DEN: 63%
Will Allen, MIA: 62%
Asante Samuel, NE: 62%
Ty Law, KC: 60%
Terrence McGee, BUF: 60%

There is not a single cornerback in the AFC with a higher success rate than Champ. There are 2 that are tied but none have a higher rate.

It's perfectly understandable that he made the Pro Bowl.:tongue:

claymore
12-21-2007, 08:15 PM
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2007/12/21/ramblings/stat-analysis/5920/



There is not a single cornerback in the AFC with a higher success rate than Champ. There are 2 that are tied but none have a higher rate.

It's perfectly understandable that he made the Pro Bowl.:tongue:
You are crazy. Champ sucked this year, him and Bly are responsible for the Green Bay game.

Pass rush aside, Champ didnt do that well, this year. And I thought they slighted some CB's taking Champ this year.

Astrass
12-21-2007, 08:48 PM
I'm not debating that he has had his best years here, I'm stating that once redskin always a redskin.. The voters and that is what counts remember his name from Redskin days and "OH BY THE WAY" he is having a great year in DEN..

He might be on the Pro Bowl Squad due to his tenure in DEN, but this year in particular he would not be a starter if it was not for the voting from the east coast crowd.. The only thing he did memorable this year in DEN was get burnt a couple of time playing more as a DB/Safety worried about run first and hoping to recover fast enough after taking the run fake..

He is a great CB on of the best ever, but he is stuck on a lousy defense because the DL sucks.. Would he have made the Pro Bowl as starter with this years numbers on stats alone? Not a chance.. You know I Know it..

Who thinks on the redskins when you hear Champ Bailey? Really...he made it into the probowl because he is hyped in the media as potentially one of the best defenders in the NFL as well as arguably the best CB to ever play. Never in the media do you hear of his days in washington. Thats why he's in the probowl....media coverage.

Astrass
12-21-2007, 08:53 PM
You are crazy. Champ sucked this year, him and Bly are responsible for the Green Bay game.

Pass rush aside, Champ didnt do that well, this year. And I thought they slighted some CB's taking Champ this year.

Anyone have the stats so far this year? I wanna see them before I ask this person why "Champ sucked" this year.

Passed at
Passes defended
tackles
ints
sacks
etc etc....

Lonestar
12-21-2007, 10:27 PM
Who thinks on the redskins when you hear Champ Bailey? Really...he made it into the probowl because he is hyped in the media as potentially one of the best defenders in the NFL as well as arguably the best CB to ever play. Never in the media do you hear of his days in washington. Thats why he's in the probowl....media coverage.

For those of you that have never followed another team or lived in another city.. The world doth not revolve around DEN like most of you think it does..

When you go out into the real world you see that DEN's success over the past 2 decades is mostly around John Elway and his feats in and around the playoffs.. Other than that most folks in the other NFL cities would not know many if any Bronci names..

Many other franchises have been around forever.. GB, WAS, CLE, CHI, NYG, PHL mostly. WAS has more sellouts and season ticket holders than most if not all teams.. NYG, WAS, GB have waiting lists as long or longer than does DEN for season tickets. In GBs case you almost have to have them willed to you for any chance of getting them.

Once a Redskin always a Redskin is not mere folly. Those fans follow there team and players fanatically even more so than Broncos fans do and even though they have sucked their fans come out rain or shine to see them play..

I have seen studies done on the biggest fan bases, DEN except for its couple of Super bowl years has consistently ranked in the 8-18 range. With DAL, WAS, GB, OAK almost always in the top 5. OAK more for its sales of colors than most anything else, But there are cheese heads as well as cowgirls and skins fans all over. Like Notre Dame they have the most loyal fans around.. Even if they grew up in WAS and moved away most fans stay loyal to those original teams..

Just how many folks do you think have moved out of the rust belt and the east coast that were once fans of those teams vs how many have move out of DEN. the numbers would be un comparable.

Now all of that said you are correct Champ got a alot of hype as being the top CB in the league after last years performance..

I noticed on the chart he was in the top on one of them but nowhere to be seen on the YP pass ones. Which sounds to me like his receivers did not get the ball much but when they did they got real good yardage. Which further leads me to believe it was because of his having to play run first and catch up afterwards..

That also means that QB's knew they should throw at Bly first instead of Champ.

broncofanatic1987
12-21-2007, 11:02 PM
I noticed on the chart he was in the top on one of them but nowhere to be seen on the YP pass ones. Which sounds to me like his receivers did not get the ball much but when they did they got real good yardage. Which further leads me to believe it was because of his having to play run first and catch up afterwards

Just because he's not on the list for best yards per pass doesn't mean that he was far behind the leaders on that list. He wasn't on the list for worst yards per pass either, which tells me that receivers haven't necessarily been getting real good yardage.

Besides, the most important stat is the success rate. Bailey was successful 63% percent of the time the ball was thrown to his receiver. No other AFC cornerback has a better success rate. Two have the same success rate but neither one of them is better than Champ.

CONGRATULATIONS ON BEING SELECTED A STARTER FOR YOUR EIGHTH PRO BOWL CHAMP!!!!!!!!! YOU DESERVE IT!!!!!!!!

Lonestar
12-21-2007, 11:12 PM
Just because he's not on the list for best yards per pass doesn't mean that he was far behind the leaders on that list. He wasn't on the list for worst yards per pass either, which tells me that receivers haven't necessarily been getting real good yardage.

Besides, the most important stat is the success rate. Bailey was successful 63% percent of the time the ball was thrown to his receiver. No other AFC cornerback has a better success rate. Two have the same success rate but neither one of them is better than Champ.

CONGRATULATIONS ON BEING SELECTED A STARTER FOR YOUR EIGHTH PRO BOWL CHAMP!!!!!!!!! YOU DESERVE IT!!!!!!!!


I'm glad your so happy about this Mrs Bailey..

Just have to wonder what those yards per catch really are.. I could not find them can you? he is not the best nor the worst but with all the toastums he had this year I have to think he was closer the the bottom than the top..

Stargazer
12-22-2007, 04:35 AM
Man the probowl is such a sham.

It always has been. Ray Lewis? I mean Ray Lewis?

83 tackles, 2 sacks, two forced fumbles, and two int's

???????????

:laugh:

broncofanatic1987
12-22-2007, 10:18 AM
I'm glad your so happy about this Mrs Bailey..

Just have to wonder what those yards per catch really are.. I could not find them can you? he is not the best nor the worst but with all the toastums he had this year I have to think he was closer the the bottom than the top..

I got your Mrs swinging.

I don't care what his actual yards per pass stat is. His success rate is better than every other AFC cornerback except for two and they are tied with him. You can whine about him not having as good a year as we all would have expected all you want. The fact is, a Champ Bailey that's mediocre by Champ Bailey standards is still better than every other cornerback in the AFC(except for two). He's not mediocre by NFL standards which clearly are not as high as Champ Bailey standards.

topscribe
12-22-2007, 11:48 AM
We will have to agreee to disagree on Champ.
While the players and coaches count, the fans vote has a huge impact on it also..

Champ had a really bad year compared to his normal standards.. Mostly because his DLINE could not stop anyone this year and he played more Free safety covering the RB's this year than he could WR's..

He had to play run first almost all year.. he has 70 tackles this year total 57 solo. How many of those were runs and how many Passes?

I really believe Champ has played hurt all year, with that quadriceps injury.
Just like the hamstring injury he had in 2005, it is the type of injury that is
not going to heal completely until he gets off it. Everyone knows Champ is
better than he has played at times this year. There has to be a reason,
although you won't hear it from Champ because he has no time for "excuses."

Nonetheless, as I have mentioned before, shore up the DT position so the
Broncos can have a better pass rush, and you will be amazed at how the
secondary has improved.

-----

Lonestar
12-22-2007, 12:31 PM
I really believe Champ has played hurt all year, with that quadriceps injury.
Just like the hamstring injury he had in 2005, it is the type of injury that is
not going to heal completely until he gets off it. Everyone knows Champ is
better than he has played at times this year. There has to be a reason,
although you won't hear it from Champ because he has no time for "excuses."

Nonetheless, as I have mentioned before, shore up the DT position so the
Broncos can have a better pass rush, and you will be amazed at how the
secondary has improved.

-----

Top I have never said he is all that bad, just not great like some homers want to believe.

When you have to play as a secondary LB, watching for run first you can not do your primary job and that is keep the WR or TE if he is playing Gates or TG in check stop them from making plays..

He had injuries last year shoulder and hamstring if memory serves correct and he was all world when on the field.. They did not have to play run first then like they are this year.. SO Champ could play his normal game off the WR so he could get a jump on any passes coming his. Way.. and there were not many of them because Dwill was getting most of the work..

This year he has been burnt numerous times BECAUSE of double moves and having to look into the backfield before handling his primary job.. His run support tackling is a curse and a God Send. God only knows how many yards Champ stop from being added to our porous run defense had he been delta.