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WARHORSE
10-05-2009, 05:34 PM
Ok.

A real hornets nest of stuff in that question, but hey, its our job to stir it up....................right?

We are afterall forum experts........heh heh.

The question is.............had we never traded Cutler...we could never forsee all the ramifications of that......but what we CAN see........is that we would not have either Ayers or Knowshon......everything else is pretty much a done deal........except we may not have traded to get Smith.


For the sake of argument, Im gonna say we would have taken Knowshon still with the 12th pick.



Would we be a better team..............................or not?

Shazam!
10-05-2009, 05:38 PM
Why War, why? Why do you have to stir shit up?

Who gives a ****. Denver is 4-0. Cutler is not here. Who cares.

If Jake Plummer was QB they'd be 4-0 too.

underrated29
10-05-2009, 05:39 PM
considering we are perfect right now. i dont think that we could be any better.

But i get at what you are getting at. So yes, with Jay here. I do think we would be contenders for the Lombardi. Not saying we arent currently with Kyle, because as i stated above. We are perfect with him. However, i think one of these games we are going to surrender more than 10 pts and will need to get some tds.

Maybe Kyle can, maybe he cant. I havent seen him do it yet so i dont know.

I have seen Jay do it, so i go with what i know and am familiar with.

Chris90210
10-05-2009, 05:39 PM
Why War, why? Why do you have to stir shit up?

Who gives a ****. Denver is 4-0. Cutler is not here. Who cares.

If Jake Plummer was QB they'd be 4-0 too.
but jake would have made that left handed throw that orton tossed the other night:laugh:

Rick
10-05-2009, 05:40 PM
I absolutely love the way they have turned the D around, loving the way they are playing.

I am not impressed with the offense as of yet.

I like McDanials and the job he is doing I just don't think this offense with the weapons it has is any where as close to as good as it should be.

IF, and htis is a big IF, Shanny would have drafted Knowshon at 12 and fired Slowik and hired nolan and let him do his job....this may very well be an awsome team all around right now.

That being said, it is still very early on possibly for judging the offense as its supposed to be a complicated system and its every ones first season with it.

So rambles aside...hard to say.

*edit* Yes I am putting Shanny and Cutler in the same token. If Shanny were here Cutler would be.

Day1BroncoFan
10-05-2009, 05:43 PM
You forgot "Who cares".

WARHORSE
10-05-2009, 05:44 PM
Why War, why? Why do you have to stir shit up?

Who gives a ****. Denver is 4-0. Cutler is not here. Who cares.

If Jake Plummer was QB they'd be 4-0 too.


Heh heh.

honz
10-05-2009, 05:45 PM
Where's the "he'd still be a crybaby" option?

WARHORSE
10-05-2009, 05:46 PM
You forgot "Who cares".


You obviously.:coffee:

Tned
10-05-2009, 05:48 PM
5
4
3
2
1

wait for it, there should be a "go post on a bears forum" post coming soon.

T.K.O.
10-05-2009, 05:51 PM
go post on a bears forum !:mad::laugh:

honz
10-05-2009, 05:53 PM
go post on a bears forum !:mad::laugh:
I've heard this is a good one...

http://bearsforums.com/

T.K.O.
10-05-2009, 05:58 PM
if it means we still would have shanny i say no way! i have mad respect for shanny,but he let the team get soft and stale...he will do well in his next hc gig as he has recharged his own batteries.but it was just like when an employee has his job for too long and gets too comfy...production almost always declines .
if we could have kept jay and he was willing to give up some of his gunslinging mentality,we would obviously benefit from having his skills on the field.
i do however think he would have pouted and threw fits if mcD made him play conservative (boring) style.
where as it seems to be a perfect fit for capt "noodle arm" orton....who was quoted as saying "its not about me....i dont care if i throw for 100 yards or 300,as long as we win !"


tell it like it is....amen brother !

Day1BroncoFan
10-05-2009, 05:58 PM
You obviously.:coffee:

I don't, but you omitted that option. :coffee: :coffee:

Tned
10-05-2009, 06:01 PM
I've heard this is a good one...

http://bearsforums.com/

I heard it's the best one to go talk smack about Cutler and the Bears...

Day1BroncoFan
10-05-2009, 06:06 PM
I will say that if Cutler stayed on he would be a better QB than he is right now.

Grover
10-05-2009, 06:08 PM
Right now, I think this is Josh McDaniels's team.
With Cutler, I think it would be McDaniel's team with the Cutler faction.
So the two would work at cross purposes and the team would not be as strong nor as resilient.

I like Cutler's on-field skills much better than Orton's. But I like the fact that Orton is this years QB.
I think Cutler is a drama queen and the team is better off with the greater leadership that Orton brings.

Just my opinion.

Shazam!
10-05-2009, 06:11 PM
There's no C in Team.

T.K.O.
10-05-2009, 06:12 PM
I will say that if Cutler stayed on he would be a better QB than he is right now.

and he would be on a team that would NEVER let the lions score 21 points in a half !!!!:D

Grover
10-05-2009, 06:13 PM
There's no C in Team.

That's what I was trying to say. It just took me about twelve-teen times more words.

elsid13
10-05-2009, 06:23 PM
With Cutler on the team, it would be more explosive especial in the passing attack. I also think Royal would be seeing more action, less sacks and Marshall wouldn't have been suspend. But that is in the past, and we have to go forward.

Shazam!
10-05-2009, 06:25 PM
I wouldn't trade the start of the Season for any.

If Denver went .500 the rest of the way they'd be 10-6 and likely a playoff team.

McDaniels is looking like an early Coach of the Year candidate.

I know I'm a Broncos fan and therefore extremely biased. But by this time the Broncos can be 5-0, and no fan worth their salt shouldnt be thrilled with this fantastic turnaround. It'd be their best start since 1998.

**** Cutler. Too bad he wanted out, or he would be a part of something special that is going on.

There's something about these Broncos we haven't seen in a long time.

Oooh, and again, Denver will hold NE to 14 or less by physically beating the shit out of them.

camdisco24
10-05-2009, 06:27 PM
What if Orton wasn't here?

We'd have at least 2 INT on us, and prob. more points against.

I like the 09 BRONCOS just the way they are!

Slick
10-05-2009, 06:36 PM
I think we'd be a damn good football team. That being said, we're a damn good football team so far this year. I'm trying really hard to live in the present but If we're going to pine away for former Denver QB's give me Elway.

:bandit:

Nomad
10-05-2009, 06:39 PM
I think we'd be a damn good football team. That being said, we're a damn good football team so far this year. I'm trying really hard to live in the present but If we're going to pine away for former Denver QB's give me Elway.

:bandit:

True! If Elway were still here......SUPERBOWL BOUND!

We are a good team this year without Cutler!!

ChairmanBron
10-05-2009, 06:45 PM
I wouldn't trade the start of the Season for any.
....

I agree with this.

The thing for me is that I don't gasp and hold my breath when ever Orton throws. Unlike with Cutler and Plummer, or perhaps somewhat with Griese.

I guess I don't like excitement.:D

But I do like winning!


.

Day1BroncoFan
10-05-2009, 06:46 PM
If Elway was still here it would be a miracle and he'd be making history everyday. :D

Northman
10-05-2009, 09:04 PM
Ok.

A real hornets nest of stuff in that question, but hey, its our job to stir it up....................right?

We are afterall forum experts........heh heh.

The question is.............had we never traded Cutler...we could never forsee all the ramifications of that......but what we CAN see........is that we would not have either Ayers or Knowshon......everything else is pretty much a done deal........except we may not have traded to get Smith.


For the sake of argument, Im gonna say we would have taken Knowshon still with the 12th pick.



Would we be a better team..............................or not?


I agree with Day there should of been more options. I really dont care. I love the fact that we are 4-0 and that is all that matters to me. However, since it will just never be let go i say we are better without Cutler. Here's why.

Jay is a gunslinger, which means he is a risk taker and right now despite the good defense we are playing we are taking care of the ball offensively. At this point last year we turned the ball over 7 times. 8 if you count the Hoculi screwup which also would have ended in a loss. For all the good things that Jay can do he can also hurt you and it showed throughout the season last year. Its showing in Chicago right now with his opening performance against the Packers. Right now, the success of this team is their ability to control the clock and take care of the ball.

NameUsedBefore
10-05-2009, 09:14 PM
We'd be Superbowl bound, no question.

CrazyHorse
10-05-2009, 09:20 PM
IF Cutler were still here we wouldn't have Knowshon Moreno and Alphonso Smith.

broncophan
10-05-2009, 09:55 PM
Well...........Cutler no longer wanted to be here.....so as a team......who would want a player who did not want to be part of the team???

The broncos are better off without him........the team's record has nothing to do with it.....imo

Tned
10-05-2009, 10:04 PM
If Cutler was still here, the QB would be wearing #6 rather than #8.

No one can possibly know what would have happened if Cutler was still here, whether the team would be better or worse, whether there would be more turnovers on offense, whether there would have been more production on offense.

The ONLY thing we know for sure is that Cutler discussions result in frayed nerves and short tempers, which then results in common courtesy being dismissed as we interact with each other.

LordTrychon
10-05-2009, 10:09 PM
I love that the vote is completely split.

Both sides seem to think sometimes that there's just a few idiots who don't see things their way... Just not how it works.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-05-2009, 10:15 PM
The Broncos are 4 - 0, so I can't see how a different player could make it any better :confused:

Shazam!
10-05-2009, 10:15 PM
Cutler would've been pressing and thrown INTs vs. Cinci or Dallas and Denver would've been 3-1. :coffee:

LordTrychon
10-05-2009, 10:17 PM
Or perhaps we would have scored more than 13 points in the first 6 quarters of those games.

Denver Native (Carol)
10-05-2009, 10:20 PM
Or perhaps we would have scored more than 13 points in the first 6 quarters of those games.

With the result still being the same as it is without scoring more than 13 points in the first 6 quarters of those games.

LordTrychon
10-05-2009, 10:21 PM
With the result still being the same as it is without scoring more than 13 points in the first 6 quarters of those games.

Possibly.

It's a fun what if game with no real answer. It just gets annoying when either side claims opinion as fact. It happens on both sides usually.

K.

Done venting.

shank
10-05-2009, 10:23 PM
http://trollcats.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/hate_this_thread_trollcat.jpg

Shazam!
10-05-2009, 10:24 PM
Nobody is claiming opinion as fact. It's all just opinions.

The Thread itself is absurd.

People should just be happy about the position Denver is in, a legitimate chance at 5-0, a week before a MNF matchup in SD, right before the Bye.

I'd take 5-1 going into the Bye without even thinking about it.

guitarj
10-05-2009, 10:25 PM
I didnt vote because I just cant say for sure.

I do know this though, Cutler never had the defense play anywhere near this level for him during his time starting here.

Our offense as a whole has to start playing better. With all those penalties and miscues, through 3 quarters I thought they were going to hand the game to Dallas. Really, the O looked anemic for most of the game, and yes Orton has got to step it up a notch too.

All I can say is WOW!! how bout that defense. They are keeping us in games!!!

If our D can continue to win games for us, then great!! but I think to be a contender into the late post season we need to see a little more firepower from the O.

Lancane
10-05-2009, 11:46 PM
Ok.

A real hornets nest of stuff in that question, but hey, its our job to stir it up....................right?

We are afterall forum experts........heh heh.

The question is.............had we never traded Cutler...we could never forsee all the ramifications of that......but what we CAN see........is that we would not have either Ayers or Knowshon......everything else is pretty much a done deal........except we may not have traded to get Smith.


For the sake of argument, Im gonna say we would have taken Knowshon still with the 12th pick.



Would we be a better team..............................or not?

Fact of the matter is that the offense we have now is mediocrity at it's best; Marshall, Royal, Gaffney, Stokely, Graham, Scheffler, Buckhalter and Moreno...are you F'n kidding me? If we had Cutler we would have beat Cincinnati, Oakland, Cleveland and Dallas by dominating on both sides of the ball. We are 4-0 thanks to the defense, because most of the offensive success has come by fluke - I'm not blind as some of the fandom, Marshall saved that pass by Orton, it could have easily been picked off, the one to Stokely should have been. Orton is as he did in Chicago, riding the coat-tails of a defense to victory...he had no weapons supposedly when he was with the Bears, now look at what he has and he is still putting up poor numbers and the only reason he does not have an interception yet is blind dumb luck, he should by all counts have close to nine by now!

So with that said, to me it is simple...this is a team has the right weapons but the wrong general at the helm. And we will have marginal success...even if we win the division with an okay offense and a great defense; defense in the end can only help win so much...Baltimore, Pittsburgh and New York can testify to that. And what do they have we don't, ehhh...that would be franchise quarterbacks that make a difference when it counts; both times we needed Orton he was lucky, and that is the honest truth. Deal with it or not, because he is not that talented...period. If he was anything more then mundane with these weapons, he would be leading the league in almost all categories and being mentioned for MVP and the Pro Bowl, Cutler would be.

honz
10-05-2009, 11:55 PM
I think people forget that even Elway and Cutler put up stinkers too. Remember when we scored 10 at home against Oakland last year...um yeah.

CrazyHorse
10-05-2009, 11:58 PM
IF Cutler were still here we wouldn't have Knowshon Moreno and Alphonso Smith.

Oh and Richard Quinn and of course KYLE ORTON!

guitarj
10-06-2009, 12:04 AM
Fact of the matter is that the offense we have now is mediocrity at it's best; Marshall, Royal, Gaffney, Stokely, Graham, Scheffler, Buckhalter and Moreno...are you F'n kidding me? If we had Cutler we would have beat Cincinnati, Oakland, Cleveland and Dallas by dominating on both sides of the ball. We are 4-0 thanks to the defense, because most of the offensive success has come by fluke - I'm not blind as some of the fandom, Marshall saved that pass by Orton, it could have easily been picked off, the one to Stokely should have been. Orton is as he did in Chicago, riding the coat-tails of a defense to victory...he had no weapons supposedly when he was with the Bears, now look at what he has and he is still putting up poor numbers and the only reason he does not have an interception yet is blind dumb luck, he should by all counts have close to nine by now!

So with that said, to me it is simple...this is a team has the right weapons but the wrong general at the helm. And we will have marginal success...even if we win the division with an okay offense and a great defense; defense in the end can only help win so much...Baltimore, Pittsburgh and New York can testify to that. And what do they have we don't, ehhh...that would be franchise quarterbacks that make a difference when it counts; both times we needed Orton he was lucky, and that is the honest truth. Deal with it or not, because he is not that talented...period. If he was anything more then mundane with these weapons, he would be leading the league in almost all categories and being mentioned for MVP and the Pro Bowl, Cutler would be.

I think you are going to see this offense settle down and get better. Yes, even Kyle will improve!!

Overtime
10-06-2009, 12:28 AM
we're better off without him and here's why.

Cutler never bought into what McDaniels was selling. Didn't like the offense, didn't want to have the reigns put on him, Cutler wants to go out and do what he wants to do.

Tom Brady is so great in NE's system, because he stays within the confines of Belichick's game plan which is tailored to Brady's abilities and strengths.

Cutler does not want to be "reigned" and work within McDaniels system, even if it benefitted the entire team, because Cutler is not a team player. He's in it for himself and the money...and if anyone thinks otherwise...just go back and look at all the risks he took last year, and when things went haywire, he went off to his little corner and pouted all by himself, instead of getting pics of the coverage to look at, and gather his O-Line, and WR's and figuring out how to beat the oppostion.

Kyle Orton plays with McDaniels system, and that's because Orton recognizes his strengths and weaknesses, is a team player, and manages the game effectively, which is a big part of why we're 4-0 (and also our defense stepping up too.). Orton does what Brady does in New England, and that's rely on the guys around him to make plays, and put trust in them. Cutler never put trust in his guys last year, he was too busy blasting the defense, and taking cheap shots at Rivers to give a damn about this team.

This football team is eons better without Cutler. I'll take the 17-10, 21-17, 12-7 wins over the 41-10 wins any day of the week, because I know these close games show exactly how much of an effort this entire team puts out as 1 unit, rather than as individual players just trying to pad stats.

Marshall didn't buy in at first, but as we all saw yesterday, McDaniel's made a believer out of him, and it's because McDaniels wants to win. he doesn't give a damn about individual stats, and he's trying to send that message to these players. The only stats that matter are the one's in the W column, and the one's in the L column, and to put W's in the W column, you need to be able to run the ball, pass effectively, and play some good solid defense.

weazel
10-06-2009, 12:37 AM
we should merge the two "what if Cutler..." threads

rcsodak
10-06-2009, 12:48 AM
Ok.

A real hornets nest of stuff in that question, but hey, its our job to stir it up....................right?

We are afterall forum experts........heh heh.

The question is.............had we never traded Cutler...we could never forsee all the ramifications of that......but what we CAN see........is that we would not have either Ayers or Knowshon......everything else is pretty much a done deal........except we may not have traded to get Smith.


For the sake of argument, Im gonna say we would have taken Knowshon still with the 12th pick.



Would we be a better team..............................or not?

I'll 'stir' even further.

I made a thread a while back, and was told since he was no longer a bronco, it didn't belong. Thusly, it got moved into the 'other nfl' thread.

The same should happen to this. Fair is fair.

As for the thread itself, why would denver want to regress?

Orton has a higher QB rating ...almost 10pts higher.

5/0 TD/INT - Orton, vs 8/5 TD/INT for cutler

As for Orton having a "noodle arm", he has also thrown for more yards.

Oh yeah...did I mention Orton is undefeated still?

rcsodak
10-06-2009, 12:54 AM
Or perhaps we would have scored more than 13 points in the first 6 quarters of those games.

This isn't college.

Style points don't mean beans.....


A win is a win is a win is a win is a win.......

WARHORSE
10-06-2009, 02:37 AM
I agree with Day there should of been more options. I really dont care. I love the fact that we are 4-0 and that is all that matters to me. However, since it will just never be let go i say we are better without Cutler. Here's why.

Jay is a gunslinger, which means he is a risk taker and right now despite the good defense we are playing we are taking care of the ball offensively. At this point last year we turned the ball over 7 times. 8 if you count the Hoculi screwup which also would have ended in a loss. For all the good things that Jay can do he can also hurt you and it showed throughout the season last year. Its showing in Chicago right now with his opening performance against the Packers. Right now, the success of this team is their ability to control the clock and take care of the ball.


Thats just it. For all the arm strength, mobility, and quick decision making/release of Cutler, and all the yardage he kicks out.......he also brings the turnovers.


Which actually makes one wonder whether he would be better for the team indeed, cause common wisdom is going to say we would be better with him...........................Im not so sure.

Benetto
10-06-2009, 03:41 AM
Cutler is a smart guy, he would have learned McDaniels system in a heart beat...Put that together with the defense, Buckhalter, and the few tweeks we made on O...and I say we would have been a force.

We are 4-0, I love that and would take that over anything....but, in week one and four of our wins our offense couldn't have had Bowlen buy us a first down in much of both games....On the count of Orton missing and over throwing some passes...He is doing a spectacular job thus far not throwing any picks....but I would be a lot more comfortable having Cutler behind center...He is smart, tough, and a warrior..As much of a douche as he is as a person, he is just as good on the field suited up...I only wonder how good our offense would have been with Mcdaniels and Cutman at the healm trying to get it done.


In all reality though, both egos would have clashed so badly during the years it would have eventually been like when worlds collide. So at the end of the day I am happy with the way things are now.

Sky's the limit though if Cutler wouldn't have been such a HUGE bitch...I hope that attitude blows up his his face one day, and he realizes how much of a freakin idiot, douche crybaby he is...In the form of a Broncos Superbowl victory.:coffee:

JDL
10-06-2009, 04:22 AM
Where's my answer - 'can't say'

Look, it is impossible to say if things would look this way. Football is a funny game and sometimes a D takes things for granted when they have a great O on the other side. Great Defenses are almost NEVER accompanied by great offenses.. I mean the truly elite D's are born of necessity. Same with great pitchers honestly. Something about knowing you can't give up any points, you can't make mistakes, sometimes that is just a recipe for great success. You relax even a little bit as a D and you will get torched and the temptation is just too great when an offense is pouring on the points. That's just simple reality and means that we'd be staring at a much different team right now.

I am starting to believe that it was necessary to root out the culture that had taken hold of all of Denver, fans, players, coaches, etc. Cutler going out of his way to belittle the efforts of the D, didn't really do much for team comrade. He's a fantastic QB - just learning how to be a leader. I hope he gets there because he is a lot of fun to watch and I always wondered what could have been had Lelie stayed, since he was so damn good at jump balls way downfield and so often got underthrown... would have made a really nice 3rd WR alongside two WRs who could do all the things he was inept at doing. But, that's just it, why torture ourselves over wondering, when the truth is that things would be so different I doubt we would recognize the two teams side by side. Right now though, there is a certain joy in watching Broncos football that I haven't felt in a decade, something I kept thinking was on the horizon with Cutler at the helm, but it is here without him and I am at least grateful to be watching a team that plays with some passion again and there is zero doubt we have Brian Dawkins to thank quite frankly.

Really that should be the question - where would be without Brian Dawkins right now... honestly? 0-4 wouldn't shock me in the least. Leadership is probably something that just can't be taught and it is easy to see when a guy really has that and well, Denver hasn't had it since Wilson went down in 2006.

Tned
10-06-2009, 06:48 AM
we're better off without him and here's why.

Cutler never bought into what McDaniels was selling. Didn't like the offense, didn't want to have the reigns put on him, Cutler wants to go out and do what he wants to do.


Prove it. You state it as a 'fact', so back up your 'fact'. Where is your link to back this up?

Tned
10-06-2009, 06:52 AM
I'll 'stir' even further.

I made a thread a while back, and was told since he was no longer a bronco, it didn't belong. Thusly, it got moved into the 'other nfl' thread.

The same should happen to this. Fair is fair.


I know you can tell the difference between this and most 'Cutler' threads, but just in case, I will explain.

Unlike most of the 'Cutler' threads, this one is specifically about the Broncos team, and whether it is better now, or would have been better if Cutler was still here. It isn't about 'Cutler', it is about the 'Broncos' and therefore is a Broncos Talk thread.

EastCoastBronco
10-06-2009, 07:12 AM
we're better off without him and here's why.

Cutler never bought into what McDaniels was selling. Didn't like the offense, didn't want to have the reigns put on him, Cutler wants to go out and do what he wants to do.

Tom Brady is so great in NE's system, because he stays within the confines of Belichick's game plan which is tailored to Brady's abilities and strengths.

Cutler does not want to be "reigned" and work within McDaniels system, even if it benefitted the entire team, because Cutler is not a team player. He's in it for himself and the money...and if anyone thinks otherwise...just go back and look at all the risks he took last year, and when things went haywire, he went off to his little corner and pouted all by himself, instead of getting pics of the coverage to look at, and gather his O-Line, and WR's and figuring out how to beat the oppostion.

Kyle Orton plays with McDaniels system, and that's because Orton recognizes his strengths and weaknesses, is a team player, and manages the game effectively, which is a big part of why we're 4-0 (and also our defense stepping up too.). Orton does what Brady does in New England, and that's rely on the guys around him to make plays, and put trust in them. Cutler never put trust in his guys last year, he was too busy blasting the defense, and taking cheap shots at Rivers to give a damn about this team.

This football team is eons better without Cutler. I'll take the 17-10, 21-17, 12-7 wins over the 41-10 wins any day of the week, because I know these close games show exactly how much of an effort this entire team puts out as 1 unit, rather than as individual players just trying to pad stats.

Marshall didn't buy in at first, but as we all saw yesterday, McDaniel's made a believer out of him, and it's because McDaniels wants to win. he doesn't give a damn about individual stats, and he's trying to send that message to these players. The only stats that matter are the one's in the W column, and the one's in the L column, and to put W's in the W column, you need to be able to run the ball, pass effectively, and play some good solid defense.

That's a damn fine post Overtime... Nice work.

Overtime
10-06-2009, 07:29 AM
Prove it. You state it as a 'fact', so back up your 'fact'. Where is your link to back this up?

go to http://www.chicagobears.com and find #6 Jay Cutler on bears roster.

that's all the proof I need.

claymore
10-06-2009, 07:46 AM
Why War, why? Why do you have to stir shit up?

Who gives a ****. Denver is 4-0. Cutler is not here. Who cares.

If Jake Plummer was QB they'd be 4-0 too.

No, we most certainly wouldnt be 4-0 with that doosh. He was a cancer.

Tned
10-06-2009, 07:53 AM
go to http://www.chicagobears.com and find #6 Jay Cutler on bears roster.

that's all the proof I need.

In other words you are just spewing your opinion, and claiming it's fact. Ok, that's what I figured, but just wanted to make sure of it.

Lancane
10-06-2009, 11:49 AM
I think you are going to see this offense settle down and get better. Yes, even Kyle will improve!!

Orton will not improve, he will always be as mediocre as he always has been. But...but...but..."Look what McDaniels did with Cassell?", "The system is complex and difficult" and "What about Orton having no turnovers?"

Let me start off with the system, it is complete and utter BS to say the offense is a complex and difficult scheme, highly used in the collegiate ranks, the 'Spread' offensive philosophy was created from the famed 'Run & Gun' or 'Run & Shoot' scheme which Denver used in the 80s' under Dan Reeves. Unlike the 'Run & Shoot' the 'Spread' hides quarterback deficiencies and usually makes them look better then they really are...case and point: Alex Smith & Tim Couch. Because the system focuses on many short passing routes, numbers for quarterbacks are usually more solid, such as turnovers and completion percentage. In the NFL several teams tried to run the 'Pro-Spread' or a variant of the scheme and only two teams have met success using it, most fail...those two teams were New England and Arizona. Both have quarterbacks that are arguably first ballot Hall of Famers.

Kyle is and will always be a game managing quarterback, those type of quarterbacks will do enough to manage a game and get the team in a place to win; it will not be enough in the end though...because no matter what, the game manager can not shoulder the team and carry a team to victory. To have success with the spread we really need a franchise-esque quarterback who can carry the team, but is coachable enough to be a solid game manager at the same time. I think that is where Cutler would have failed compared to Elway and particularly in this system...he is a franchise quarterback, but he is a high risk taker and is better suited for the 'West Coast' styled offense rather then one of patience such as the 'Spread' or 'Run & Shoot'. I don't believe Cutler was the quarterback for this system...so don't get me wrong, but he could have done well...not great!

Orton will win more then lose, I have no doubts about that...but he will not be the 'quarterback', we will see that come December, even if we win a Super Bowl with him, it will be a one time deal like Tampa Bay with Dilfer. To stay dominant like New England and go farther year in and year out we will need a franchise quarterback. We should have drafted Sanchez, and in this system...people would have seen how good we could really be and for a long time. And hopefully Tom Brandstater is that guy, we don't know...but Orton is not the quarterback that is the future of this team. And I'm not saying I know his mind, but I would bet my nuts that McDaniels believes much the same.

Day1BroncoFan
10-06-2009, 12:08 PM
If Cutler were still here there would be a lot less Cutler threads... unless he was playing badly.

Overtime
10-06-2009, 05:35 PM
In other words you are just spewing your opinion, and claiming it's fact. Ok, that's what I figured, but just wanted to make sure of it.

wrong again.

Fact: Cutler got whiny crybaby syndrome when McDaniels came here.
Fact: Cutler got butthurt demaded trade
Fact: cutler is on the bears roster as their QB.

nothing I said was opinion, it was all fact.

Had he believed in McDaniels, and his system, then he would still be here.

The Denver Broncos are a much better team without him.

more proof.

Cutler 5 INT's 3-1 record.
Orton 0 INT's,4-0 record.

LordTrychon
10-06-2009, 06:48 PM
This isn't college.

Style points don't mean beans.....


A win is a win is a win is a win is a win.......

Not arguing that.

But points points mean more than just beans. I'd be happy if we had more points points.

You can win games with a strong defense and a mediocre offense. I'd rather do it with a strong defense and a strong offense.

I'm not saying our offense won't improve. Just saying that it'd likely be better already with Cutler taking the snaps.

I like Orton and support him against detractors... but I'm not going to lie to myself and say that I think the offense is better with him than Cutler. Sorry. I don't think that Royal suddenly forgot how to get open or has had a harder time adjusting to a new offense this year than last year.

LordTrychon
10-06-2009, 06:51 PM
wrong again.

Fact: Cutler got whiny crybaby syndrome when McDaniels came here.
Fact: Cutler got butthurt demaded trade
Fact: cutler is on the bears roster as their QB.

nothing I said was opinion, it was all fact.

Had he believed in McDaniels, and his system, then he would still be here.

The Denver Broncos are a much better team without him.

more proof.

Cutler 5 INT's 3-1 record.
Orton 0 INT's,4-0 record.

I'll take Overtime's word for it. He's got a Master in butthurt.

Tned
10-06-2009, 07:40 PM
I'll take Overtime's word for it. He's got a Master in butthurt.

I wouldn't touch that with a.. welll, err, I just ain't going to touch that...

Tned
10-06-2009, 07:40 PM
wrong again.

Fact: Cutler got whiny crybaby syndrome when McDaniels came here.
Fact: Cutler got butthurt demaded trade
Fact: cutler is on the bears roster as their QB.

nothing I said was opinion, it was all fact.

Had he believed in McDaniels, and his system, then he would still be here.

The Denver Broncos are a much better team without him.

more proof.

Cutler 5 INT's 3-1 record.
Orton 0 INT's,4-0 record.

Thanks for proving my point about your so called 'facts' :salute:

T.K.O.
10-06-2009, 08:40 PM
well, i do know the team seems a bit "happier " these days:D

Overtime
10-06-2009, 10:19 PM
I wouldn't touch that with a.. welll, err, I just ain't going to touch that...

that's because you know your place, and it's about time too. :laugh:

rcsodak
10-06-2009, 10:50 PM
I know you can tell the difference between this and most 'Cutler' threads, but just in case, I will explain.

Unlike most of the 'Cutler' threads, this one is specifically about the Broncos team, and whether it is better now, or would have been better if Cutler was still here. It isn't about 'Cutler', it is about the 'Broncos' and therefore is a Broncos Talk thread.

Gotcha!

Good to know, tned.

Look for my threads on :

Would the Broncos be undefeated with Shanny, as well?

If Shannon was still playing, would he have more catches than Tony G?

Favoritism.


Plain.

and.

simple.

LordTrychon
10-06-2009, 11:06 PM
I don't see any problems with those thread ideas.... :confused:

Kaylore
10-07-2009, 11:28 AM
He obviously couldn't work with McDaniels. He would have been a cancer in the locker room and probably the Marshall situation would have been worse as a result.

It's unfortunate. I think that Cutler would have thrived here so it's a loss for both sides, but he got what he wanted and I suspect long term he will regret his immaturity.

guitarj
10-07-2009, 11:43 AM
It's unfortunate. I think that Cutler would have thrived here so it's a loss for both sides, but he got what he wanted and I suspect long term he will regret his immaturity.

Yes, if you think about it, he had a gift fall in his lap with this new regime. Brady had 50 TDs in a season with McD as his OC....and you dont like it because this guy is going to call the plays, and teach you there is a better way???:shocked:

If Cutler would have bought into McD's system and humbled himself to be taught, what the possibilities could have been. IF....(if being the biggest little word in the dictionary) he would have done this, then yes, there is no doubt he would have made the team better off than it is now.

Tned
10-07-2009, 11:57 AM
Yea, "what if" the HC actually wanted Cutler, rather than trying to trade for his one year wonder, Cassel?

See, that's the flip side of the Cutler didn't want to be here argument.

Traveler
10-07-2009, 12:07 PM
He obviously couldn't work with McDaniels. He would have been a cancer in the locker room and probably the Marshall situation would have been worse as a result.

It's unfortunate. I think that Cutler would have thrived here so it's a loss for both sides, but he got what he wanted and I suspect long term he will regret his immaturity.

I might change that to he obviously didn't want to work with McDaniels after he found out about the trade talks. Shame that we won't be able to see what someone as physically talented as Cutler could do in this type of offense.

He seems to be doing well in Chicago. He's no longer a Bronco so as far as I'm concerned, I wish him good luck and good riddance.

guitarj
10-07-2009, 12:12 PM
Yea, "what if" the HC actually wanted Cutler, rather than trying to trade for his one year wonder, Cassel?

See, that's the flip side of the Cutler didn't want to be here argument.

Well, based on Cutler's attitude from the very begining when McD was hired, maybe the coach had a reason to consider it.....

Yes, this is pure spectulation also, but in my opinion, likely.

rcsodak
10-07-2009, 12:21 PM
I don't see any problems with those thread ideas.... :confused:

See...I can't even purposely come up with a thread name that doesn't deserve being in this forum! lol

So why is it, then, that after the 1st week of cutler NOT playing for the broncos, and his completely TERRIBLE play, that he can't have a thread in here, pointing it out? But now, all of a sudden, with a little tweaking of wordage, it's ok?

Answer:
Certain cutler fans got their feelers hurt by having it pointed out. That's what happens when you idolize 1 player, in a team sport.

Only answer that makes sense to me. :coffee:

rcsodak
10-07-2009, 12:24 PM
Yea, "what if" the HC actually wanted Cutler, rather than trying to trade for his one year wonder, Cassel?

See, that's the flip side of the Cutler didn't want to be here argument.

Where's it been proven that McD thought this?

Cutler didn't want to be in denver, especially after his 2 BFF's left.

claymore
10-07-2009, 12:27 PM
Where's it been proven that McD thought this?

Cutler didn't want to be in denver, especially after his 2 BFF's left.

You dont listen to trade offers for players you want to keep. I guaranty He wouldnt listen to trade offers for Clady and a backup LT.

gregbroncs
10-07-2009, 12:59 PM
Yea, "what if" the HC actually wanted Cutler, rather than trying to trade for his one year wonder, Cassel?

See, that's the flip side of the Cutler didn't want to be here argument.

Except Cutler started whining before McD was even named coach. And player's get looked at in trades all of the time in all sports. Even if you don't want to necessarily trade a player does not mean you don't listen and see what is possible.

He was not traded at that time and still whined until they were pretty much forced to trade him because he got his panties in a bunch.

Lonestar
10-07-2009, 01:02 PM
He obviously couldn't work with McDaniels. He would have been a cancer in the locker room and probably the Marshall situation would have been worse as a result.

It's unfortunate. I think that Cutler would have thrived here so it's a loss for both sides, but he got what he wanted and I suspect long term he will regret his immaturity.



that was how I saw it after being told he was the man by Pat to have Josh come in and tell him it was going to be a new Scheme and that he was going to call the plays and Most likely that Josh was not going to allow him to do what jay wanted..

Jays need to be the MAN and him being a pro bowler would not allow him to acquiesce to Josh's way of doing things.. his being pampered by mike and bates was at an end and frankly it did not seem to me he liked being in a cow town anyway from all the "outside" commentary we heard about him after the fact..

I do believe had he tamed his own ego and been more mature he would have been special in a CONTROLLED scheme.. but in the end he could not..

Lonestar
10-07-2009, 01:08 PM
Yea, "what if" the HC actually wanted Cutler, rather than trying to trade for his one year wonder, Cassel?

See, that's the flip side of the Cutler didn't want to be here argument.


after the growing pains we have seen with KO trying to learn the "system and he wanted to be here..

do you really think the gunslinger in jay would have been much different.. a clash of egos and learning a new system would not have been pretty and IMO we would be in the same or worse position than we are today.. and that assumes we would not have gotten Moreno in the first.. IMO Moreno was drafted to take some heat off the new QB and we had an extra #1 to burn..

If I were Josh having someone that KNOWS the scheme and he trusts it would have been a no brainer.. after a few months talking with Jay I suspect there was very little in the vibes department.. nothing like he had with Cassell some one that has proved he could run the Scheme.. like I said no brainer..

Tned
10-07-2009, 01:19 PM
after the growing pains we have seen with KO trying to learn the "system and he wanted to be here..

do you really think the gunslinger in jay would have been much different.. a clash of egos and learning a new system would not have been pretty and IMO we would be in the same or worse position than we are today.. and that assumes we would not have gotten Moreno in the first.. IMO Moreno was drafted to take some heat off the new QB and we had an extra #1 to burn..

If I were Josh having someone that KNOWS the scheme and he trusts it would have been a no brainer.. after a few months talking with Jay I suspect there was very little in the vibes department.. nothing like he had with Cassell some one that has proved he could run the Scheme.. like I said no brainer..

I have no idea how Jay would have done in this system, just like nobody else on the board knows.

I was just giving the flipside the "he didn't want to be here" argument, which is that McDaniels tried to trade him away.

McDaniels may have thought he was incapable, or like with Gaffney and some of the others, he wanted a jump start, by bringing in guys that new his system (trying to trade for Cassel), even if they were less talented.

Who knows? We don't.

All we know is that McDaniels tried to trade Cutler, it blew up on him, Cutler demanded a trade, Culer was traded.

Orton is our QB.

We are 4-0 and Cutler will never be the Broncos QB again.

Watchthemiddle
10-07-2009, 01:28 PM
Short and sweet..the only thing we can go off of is stats.

If Cutler were here with his current stats for this season, we would be no better than 3-1.

If you don't go off of his current stats, and just a what if...we would be no better than 3-1 or maybe at 2-2.

The only reason I say that is, he would have forced some issues with the ball and thrown INT's. I hate it when the offense goes 3 and out this year, but if its because everyone is covered and Orton has to throw the ball away so be it. I would much rather punt and pin the opposing offense then have a QB force the ball into triple coverage and turn the ball over.

Watchthemiddle
10-07-2009, 01:30 PM
I have no idea how Jay would have done in this system, just like nobody else on the board knows.

I was just giving the flipside the "he didn't want to be here" argument, which is that McDaniels tried to trade him away.

McDaniels may have thought he was incapable, or like with Gaffney and some of the others, he wanted a jump start, by bringing in guys that new his system (trying to trade for Cassel), even if they were less talented.

Who knows? We don't.

All we know is that McDaniels tried to trade Cutler, it blew up on him, Cutler demanded a trade, Culer was traded.

Orton is our QB.

We are 4-0 and Cutler will never be the Broncos QB again.


I wouldn't neccessary say it "blew up on him".

Tned
10-07-2009, 01:44 PM
I wouldn't neccessary say it "blew up on him".

So, you think he intnetionally created all of this seasons chaos, media scrutiny, owner publicly saying he made 'rookie mistakes', etc.?

Either he orchestrated the whole thing from the beginning to end the way it did (something I have stated I think is very likely) or the attempt to trade Cassel blew up on him.


Short and sweet..the only thing we can go off of is stats.

If Cutler were here with his current stats for this season, we would be no better than 3-1.

If you don't go off of his current stats, and just a what if...we would be no better than 3-1 or maybe at 2-2.

The only reason I say that is, he would have forced some issues with the ball and thrown INT's. I hate it when the offense goes 3 and out this year, but if its because everyone is covered and Orton has to throw the ball away so be it. I would much rather punt and pin the opposing offense then have a QB force the ball into triple coverage and turn the ball over.

The teams aren't equivalent, so stats are hard to compare apples to apples. Few would argue that Chicago's offensive line or WRs are equivalent to Denver's, for instance.

There is simply no way to know if we would be 0-4 or 4-0 with Cutler at the helm, or somewhere in between. The ONLY thing we know with absolute certainty is that our 'record', at this point in the season, could not be any better with Cutler. Possibly the same, possibly worse, but no better (for obvious reasons).

TXBRONC
10-07-2009, 02:05 PM
Short and sweet..the only thing we can go off of is stats.

If Cutler were here with his current stats for this season, we would be no better than 3-1.

If you don't go off of his current stats, and just a what if...we would be no better than 3-1 or maybe at 2-2.

The only reason I say that is, he would have forced some issues with the ball and thrown INT's. I hate it when the offense goes 3 and out this year, but if its because everyone is covered and Orton has to throw the ball away so be it. I would much rather punt and pin the opposing offense then have a QB force the ball into triple coverage and turn the ball over.

There is no way that on every occassion that when Denver doesn't convert a 3rd it has to be that the receivers were covered so the quarterback threw away the ball. So far I've watched every game and I know that's not the case.

T.K.O.
10-07-2009, 07:13 PM
NFLN is reading our site !they just put up the video of "mr.right?" at nfl.com check it out collinsworth gets a serving of crow its pretty good stuff!:beer:

Lonestar
10-08-2009, 12:37 AM
NFLN is reading our site !they just put up the video of "mr.right?" at nfl.com check it out collinsworth gets a serving of crow its pretty good stuff!:beer:

got a link?

Simple Jaded
10-08-2009, 01:09 AM
There are plenty of QB's that would be better than Kyle Orton, two of them play for the Broncos.......

MOtorboat
11-27-2009, 02:54 AM
There are plenty of QB's that would be better than Kyle Orton, two of them play for the Broncos.......

Good call.

GEM
11-27-2009, 03:06 AM
Good call.

Mo, is it really necessary to drudge up month and a half old threads just for the purpose of rubbing someone's nose in something? Especially when it's one win in the last 5 weeks?

Northman
11-27-2009, 06:42 AM
Mo, is it really necessary to drudge up month and a half old threads just for the purpose of rubbing someone's nose in something? Especially when it's one win in the last 5 weeks?

To be fair, its not about whether the team is winning. The post is in response too who the better QB is on our roster which is what he was addressing.

topscribe
11-27-2009, 11:17 AM
Mo, is it really necessary to drudge up month and a half old threads just for the purpose of rubbing someone's nose in something? Especially when it's one win in the last 5 weeks?

In all fairness, the issue still is timely, and, frankly, I think the Broncos flat out
raped the Bears in the trade. They got Moreno (whom they probably wouldn't
have selected with just one 1st round selection) and Phonz out of it. Moreover,
I believe Orton has been the better QB so far.

Link is an old board bud of mine, going back, deep into the days of Mania. He
has been pretty hard on Orton, so I don't mind rubbing his nose a bit. :D

And I don't look at it as one 1 out of the last 5, but as 7 wins out of the last 11. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----

Biz1
11-27-2009, 11:21 AM
In all fairness, the issue still is timely, and, frankly, I think the Broncos flat out
raped the Bears in the trade. They got Moreno (whom they probably wouldn't
have selected with just one 1st round selection) and Phonz out of it. Moreover,
I believe Orton has been the better QB so far.

Link is an old board bud of mine, going back, deep into the days of Mania. He
has been pretty hard on Orton, so I don't mind rubbing his nose a bit. :D

And I don't look at it as one 1 out of the last 5, but as 7 wins out of the last 11. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----

Raped is an understatement, thank God we're going into an uncapped salary year. BTW, check out the new vid I posted, got lucky with NFL films this morning.:beer:

SOCALORADO.
11-27-2009, 11:50 AM
I really, really would have liked to never have seen that trade up with SEA to aquire Alphie ever happen.
DEN could still have 2 picks this year and get a QB like Ryan Mallet. DEN could still move around to get a coveted QB, but it would have been nice to still have 2 picks this year in the 1st, one to throw at a QB.
Oh well, i still think DEN raped CHI.
Who is Pickler throwing his league leading INT this week to?

SmilinAssasSin27
11-27-2009, 12:09 PM
Evaluating each game on it's own merits, I truly believe Cutler helps us vs Cincy (which we ended up winning anyways) and Pittsburgh (where Orton had a Cutler-like performance). Steady, controlled games vs Oak and Clev worked well for Orton. In the past, Cutler has bone headed away "easy" wins vs the likes of KC and Oak. The games vs Dallas and NE were tight enough that one mistake would have meant the game. Orton didn't make the mistakes and I feel Cutler likely would have. Orton was brilliant at SD. Bmore was just a disaster. Pittsburgh woulda had to respect the deep ball more if Cutty was playing. Orton looked great until the injury at Wash and the game was over before he got in vs SD the second time. Only 1 mistake last night for a big win.

All in all, I'm happy we have Orton over Cutler. I know he's not as fancy...but I'd rather have a QB who doesn't allow us to get throttled vs teams we have no business losing to.

SmilinAssasSin27
11-27-2009, 12:11 PM
I really, really would have liked to never have seen that trade up with SEA to aquire Alphie ever happen.
DEN could still have 2 picks this year and get a QB like Ryan Mallet. DEN could still move around to get a coveted QB, but it would have been nice to still have 2 picks this year in the 1st, one to throw at a QB.
Oh well, i still think DEN raped CHI.
Who is Pickler throwing his league leading INT this week to?

WAY to early to hate on Phons...and a second costs much less than a 1st. Keep in mind, while trying to pay Elvis, BMarsh, Graham, Champ, Clady, DJ, etc, we'd also be paying for FOUR 1st round contracts between the 08 and 09 drafts. That is a lot of bank.

dogfish
11-27-2009, 12:24 PM
you guys are still talking about cutler?

really?

**** is that all about?

:confused:


oh well, carry on!

SmilinAssasSin27
11-27-2009, 12:29 PM
I readliy admit that I'm am playing a huge hater role when it comes to Cutler. It'll likely end after this season, but for now I'm still annoyed that some people still think letting him go was a bad move.

SOCALORADO.
11-27-2009, 12:35 PM
WAY to early to hate on Phons...and a second costs much less than a 1st. Keep in mind, while trying to pay Elvis, BMarsh, Graham, Champ, Clady, DJ, etc, we'd also be paying for FOUR 1st round contracts between the 08 and 09 drafts. That is a lot of bank.

Ah, i am not hating on Alphie.
Hopefully he pans out, but using the excuse of having too many 1sts and DEN couldnt possibly pay them doesnt make sense.
And most of the players you listed are not up for contact anyways. Maybe champ gets an extension, but by your logic, with Goodman and Alphie who needs champ right? According to you, DENs high priced, super CB Alphie should be more than adequate.
Its the 06 class that is all going to want new contacts and theres no way DEN can keep alll of them anyways.
Sheffler will walk for more $$. Marshall and Elvis get mega $$$ in DEN.
I am good with that.
Or at least drop back into the top of the 2nd in a trade and get a QB in there this year instead of last year.
Doesnt NE have like 3 2nd rounders this year? I am really getting tired of that team and high draft picks.

SmilinAssasSin27
11-27-2009, 01:00 PM
Ah, i am not hating on Alphie.
Hopefully he pans out, but using the excuse of having too many 1sts and DEN couldnt possibly pay them doesnt make sense.
And most of the players you listed are not up for contact anyways. Maybe champ gets an extension, but by your logic, with Goodman and Alphie who needs champ right? According to you, DENs high priced, super CB Alphie should be more than adequate.
Its the 06 class that is all going to want new contacts and theres no way DEN can keep alll of them anyways.
Sheffler will walk for more $$. Marshall and Elvis get mega $$$ in DEN.
I am good with that.
Or at least drop back into the top of the 2nd in a trade and get a QB in there this year instead of last year.
Doesnt NE have like 3 2nd rounders this year? I am really getting tired of that team and high draft picks.

The ones I mentioned are either coming up soon or already getting paid. Regardless, I think it is a smart gamble to get the second round player who you have studied and who will come cheaper than a future #1. How many first round busts are locked in to 4-5 year deals worht multi millions of dollars? It's actually a fiscaly responsible move.

And feel free to continue to put words in my mouth. I don't know how "it's too soon to hate on Phons" turns into "but by your logic, with Goodman and Alphie who needs champ right? According to you, DENs high priced, super CB Alphie should be more than adequate." First off, I never mentioned Goodman in my post. Secondly, I never called Phons a "super CB". But whatever ya need to try to make an arhument...

SOCALORADO.
11-27-2009, 01:10 PM
The ones I mentioned are either coming up soon or already getting paid. Regardless, I think it is a smart gamble to get the second round player who you have studied and who will come cheaper than a future #1. How many first round busts are locked in to 4-5 year deals worht multi millions of dollars? It's actually a fiscaly responsible move.

And feel free to continue to put words in my mouth. I don't know how "it's too soon to hate on Phons" turns into "but by your logic, with Goodman and Alphie who needs champ right? According to you, DENs high priced, super CB Alphie should be more than adequate." First off, I never mentioned Goodman in my post. Secondly, I never called Phons a "super CB". But whatever ya need to try to make an arhument...

No argument here, just stating your money logic which makes absolutely no sense in regards to the players you mentioned.

rationalfan
11-27-2009, 02:18 PM
if denver selects a quarterback in the first round of this next draft i'll grow a neckbeard. not going to happen.

silkamilkamonico
11-27-2009, 02:31 PM
Cutler = system QB.

Mike Shanahan's system, where reading a defense and going through your progressions isn't necessary.