View Full Version : ESPN: In young QB market, Cutler hot, Eli Manning not
Ravage!!!
12-13-2007, 02:33 PM
ESPN: In young QB market, Cutler hot, Eli Manning not
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=3142771
Pittsburgh's Ben Roethlisberger and Dallas' Tony Romo impress with their ability to strike downfield after leaving the pocket.
Cincinnati's Carson Palmer dazzles with his arm strength and his ability to sniff out opposing defenses.
Houston's Matt Schaub has a better feel for the pocket than most, while Jacksonville's David Garrard brings poise and a high football IQ to the quarterback position.
For all their differences, most of the NFL's promising young quarterbacks share a striking similarity in the eyes of scouts and coaches: They can't touch Denver's Jay Cutler for sheer potential.
Asked to evaluate 11 young starters, experts singled out Cutler as the quarterback most likely to reach the elite status currently shared by Tom Brady and Peyton Manning.
"The kid in Denver, to me he is the future of this league," an AFC pro scout said.
"I would jump on that boat," an NFC personnel director said. "He isn't quite there, but you see those flashes of a guy who, once he has the whole playbook in his mind and he's made all the mistakes he needs to make in learning it, man, he's going to be a special player."
ESPN.com granted anonymity to two pro scouts, one personnel director, a defensive coordinator and a defensive backs coach in exchange for unvarnished evaluations.
The experts analyzed starting quarterbacks younger than 30 and with fewer than four seasons of starting experience. San Francisco's Alex Smith and Arizona's Matt Leinart fell from consideration because neither has established himself as a long-term starter.
That left 11 young quarterbacks standing: Roethlisberger, Romo, Palmer, Schaub, Garrard, Cleveland's Derek Anderson, San Diego's Philip Rivers, Tennessee's Vince Young, Washington's Jason Campbell, the New York Giants' Eli Manning and, of course, Cutler.
STRONG BUY
Jay Cutler, Broncos
CUTLER WATCH
Bullish: Exceptionally strong arm, good mobility and accuracy, calm under pressure. Showed toughness in returning quickly from painful leg injury.
Bearish: Like many hard throwers, trusts his arm strength too much at times.
2007 most yards per attempt Player YPA*
Tom Brady 8.60
Tony Romo 8.58
Brett Favre 7.96
Jay Cutler 7.92
Peyton Manning 7.90
minimum 100 attempts
The second-year pro has completed better than 60 percent of his passes through his first 18 regular-season starts, but the numbers don't begin to explain what separates Cutler from the others.
"I love him," the AFC scout said. "He's athletic, poised, smart, accurate -- and there was just something about that kid coming out, the way he was wired."
The Broncos have had problems surrounding Cutler with a consistent supporting cast. Losing veteran center Tom Nalen was a significant setback. Top receiver Javon Walker has hardly played. Top running back Travis Henry has 34 carries over the last seven games.
Cutler's numbers have suffered as a result, but he's still averaging 7.9 yards per attempt, putting him up there with Brett Favre (7.96) and Peyton Manning (7.9).
"He has an unbelievable career ahead of him," the NFC personnel director said. "He is Romo [in terms of confidence] with the physical tools to match. He's fun to watch because he's kind of like the kid who plays quarterback down at the playground. 'Let's just go play.'"
Cutler, 24, has less experience than the other quarterbacks on our list, leaving more for the imagination. But his poise and physical ability are obvious already.
"He has a cannon of an arm, obviously, and when he's in the pocket, he has the arm strength to make all the throws," an NFC pro scout said. "Throw in the fact that he can move around and buy additional time, and he's got a pretty impressive arsenal in terms of ability and arm strength and feet."
Great article, man.
Always nice to hear that we have one of the best young quarterbacks in the league. It was really nice of Fisher to help Shanny in evaluating him. Here's to a long, successful, injury-free, pro-bowl and superbowl filled career. :cheers:
Lonestar
12-13-2007, 04:08 PM
Just looked at his stats overall pretty good although 4000 yards looks to be out of reach he is almost 1200 yards with 3 games to go..
He has been better beyond my expectations..
Yeah, Cutler is only 158 yards from reaching 3,000. If he gets around 200 yards in each of the last 3 games, he could hit 3,500. Not bad for a first full season. :cheers:
Cutler looks like he is going to be a stud. However, don't get to made when I remind that if Vince Young had Wideouts that could catch the ball he would be right up there with Cutler. I think that Cutler has one of the most insane arms in the league, just get Walker back healthy and lookout.
Fan in Exile
12-13-2007, 04:28 PM
Cutler looks like he is going to be a stud. However, don't get to made when I remind that if Vince Young had Wideouts that could catch the ball he would be right up there with Cutler. I think that Cutler has one of the most insane arms in the league, just get Walker back healthy and lookout.
What makes you say that about Vince?
What makes you say that about Vince?
Vince Young does not get credit for a lot of the great throws he makes. His WRs are terrible, they run routes poorly, drop balls all the time and don't have any real standout ability. When I watch him play I notice that he makes reads first, and then runs. The problem is that he runs more than I think he would like to simply because he drops back makes reads sees no one is open and then runs for his life. This is not to say that he himself runs to much overall of his own choosing, that is part of becoming a QB. I am not saying that VY will be better than Cutler, or that he currently is better than Cutler, I was just saying that Vince Young is a mighty fine QB that is on the same level as Cutler as far as ability and potential go.
Yeah, Cutler is only 158 yards from reaching 3,000. If he gets around 200 yards in each of the last 3 games, he could hit 3,500. Not bad for a first full season. :cheers:
What impresses me is that Rod Smith has been gone all season and Walker has been hurt for a long time too. Walker, Stokely, Marshall and Rod Smith could spell trouble for opposing defenses with Cutler at QB.
Vince Young does not get credit for a lot of the great throws he makes. His WRs are terrible, they run routes poorly, drop balls all the time and don't have any real standout ability. When I watch him play I notice that he makes reads first, and then runs. The problem is that he runs more than I think he would like to simply because he drops back makes reads sees no one is open and then runs for his life. This is not to say that he himself runs to much overall of his own choosing, that is part of becoming a QB. I am not saying that VY will be better than Cutler, or that he currently is better than Cutler, I was just saying that Vince Young is a mighty fine QB that is on the same level as Cutler as far as ability and potential go.
Same thing happened to Vick and noone cared. It probably won't be any different for Young. If you actually watched Vick, he threw way better than statistics showed. He just never had a good receiver and they all constantly dropped balls. To this day, and I'm sure someone will say something after I post this, everyone still says that he isn't a good passing QB. Granted, he is horrible at everything now because you can't throw from a cell.
To fans, bad receivers are not an excuse for a QB.
Same thing happened to Vick and noone cared. It probably won't be any different for Young. If you actually watched Vick, he threw way better than statistics showed. He just never had a good receiver and they all constantly dropped balls. To this day, and I'm sure someone will say something after I post this, everyone still says that he isn't a good passing QB. Granted, he is horrible at everything now because you can't throw from a cell.
To fans, bad receivers are not an excuse for a QB.
No, it is not the same thing as Vick. Vick did not make the reads at all, Vince Young does. Vince Young is a pass first QB, Vick was run first. I don't really think that you could claim that VY is not a fine QB or just as talented as any QB in this league. Nor could you really argue that he does not do the right things and is floundering as a QB largely due to WR's that make Tom Brady's wideouts last year look like perennial pro bowlers.
BigBroncLove
12-13-2007, 05:24 PM
I do feel Vince Young has been handed a hard case this year. He is obviously still learning this game, just like Cutler, but has been impressive in his throws. His recievers drop way to many balls, wayyyyy to many. I would guess his WR's in the DEnver game alone left over 100 yards on the field due to poor catches. Thats not to say Young is impeccable. AS it was said before he has a low elbow throw which assists in deflected passes and interceptions. He is keen to throwing off his back foot in presure which as led to many of his interceptions, his defense has pulled him out of some bad losses, and he does rely on his feet to much. I can't say where he iwll be in a few years, but at this moment he does seem to be below Cutler in his poise and production. Some of that is on his supporting cast, some is on him. Its a two way street.
However as a Bronco fan, reading things of this nature force a big smile on your face. To hear the experts (and scouts, at least the good ones, are experts) agree with what many of us have seen here in Denver, things are looking up and up. Its still way to early to tell how things will go for either Young or Cutelr but if this season is telling at all, Cutlers looks the brightest. Time will tell though.
TXBRONC
12-13-2007, 06:27 PM
Cutler looks like he is going to be a stud. However, don't get to made when I remind that if Vince Young had Wideouts that could catch the ball he would be right up there with Cutler. I think that Cutler has one of the most insane arms in the league, just get Walker back healthy and lookout.
Vince Young's wide outs are not the reason he's throwing interceptions.
Vince Young's wide outs are not the reason he's throwing interceptions.
But they are the reason why he has to force a lot of throws. They are a big reason why he has a low completion percentage. VY is a fine QB, and on the same level as Jay Cutler......
TXBRONC
12-13-2007, 06:47 PM
But they are the reason why he has to force a lot of throws. They are a big reason why he has a low completion percentage. VY is a fine QB, and on the same level as Jay Cutler......
No they part of the reason but not nearly as big of a reason as you say. You said it yourself his receivers drop passes, they seem to be running the right routes and getting open but they drop passes. His are coming off an inability to read the defense.
He is no where near the same level as Cutler.
Ravage!!!
12-13-2007, 06:50 PM
Vince Young's wide outs are not the reason he's throwing interceptions.
Nor are they the reason he throws sidearm. He has a terrible delivery, which not only hurts his accuracy, but try to throw a deep ball, or a lobbing touch pass with the ball as low as he throws it!
Thats why the article talks about how there were a "thousand QBs that failed before Kosar succeeded with that throwing style." When the QB is a bigger threat with his legs than his arm, that says a LOT about him as a QB.
I don't think anyone, in the know, is evaluating Young's play based on the DROPPED balls.
Nor are they the reason he throws sidearm. He has a terrible delivery, which not only hurts his accuracy, but try to throw a deep ball, or a lobbing touch pass with the ball as low as he throws it!
Thats why the article talks about how there were a "thousand QBs that failed before Kosar succeeded with that throwing style." When the QB is a bigger threat with his legs than his arm, that says a LOT about him as a QB.
I don't think anyone, in the know, is evaluating Young's play based on the DROPPED balls.
But they are counting his stats. And that is his perception by the fans, by his stats. There are a lot of HOF QBS who started off far worse that VY
TXBRONC
12-13-2007, 06:57 PM
Nor are they the reason he throws sidearm. He has a terrible delivery, which not only hurts his accuracy, but try to throw a deep ball, or a lobbing touch pass with the ball as low as he throws it!
Thats why the article talks about how there were a "thousand QBs that failed before Kosar succeeded with that throwing style." When the QB is a bigger threat with his legs than his arm, that says a LOT about him as a QB.
I don't think anyone, in the know, is evaluating Young's play based on the DROPPED balls.
Kosar was also better at reading defenses.
LoyalSoldier
12-14-2007, 01:20 AM
But they are the reason why he has to force a lot of throws. They are a big reason why he has a low completion percentage. VY is a fine QB, and on the same level as Jay Cutler......
Look at Brady's WRs last year when Caldwell was their best. The WRs were horrid, but Brady still made them look good.
Vince Young has a lot of good traits as a competitor, and those things some quarterbacks will never learn. He also has great athleticism. Part of the reason he could become much better is his competitive nature ... he wants to be the best and beat the best.
Young hasn't run as much this season, as he's been trying to become a better passer. That's a good thing, but the immediate consequences are that he rarely has a good game.
That being said, they have to decide whether to fix his throwing motion or not; the article says Campbell's mechanics have greatly improved, so that too can happen with Young. The other route is to let him keep the motion, and hope he can become a great passer despite the flaws in his mechanics, like Kosar.
What I would like to see him do more of is put much more zip on his passes, specially the short ones. He seems to like to finese the ball to his receivers a lot. His best passes seem to be when he puts zip on them. Also, the receivers will appreciate it more, not having to wait for the ball as the defenders attack them. Also, slower thrown balls give the defender better chances at it, and more time to adjust if he makes mistakes. That's why Cutler's and Brady's short passes are so effective; they put zip on them.
Look at Brady's WRs last year when Caldwell was their best. The WRs were horrid, but Brady still made them look good.
Oh darn, so he is not as good as Tom Brady, you got me there. The only other QB in the same class as Brady is Peyton Manning and they are both first ballot hall of famers. So at this moment Vince Young is not as good as two of the best QBs to ever play the game in his second year starting...
No they part of the reason but not nearly as big of a reason as you say. You said it yourself his receivers drop passes, they seem to be running the right routes and getting open but they drop passes. His are coming off an inability to read the defense.
He is no where near the same level as Cutler.
TXBRONC his wideouts are flat out wretched. They drop big passes all the time. The game against you Vince Young played like a manbeast and his wideouts dropped the ball even though he threw the ball perfectly. This is the status quo for his team, they did the same thing against Cincinnati and they have been all year long. And before you tell me that Cutler is better than him please realize that Jay Cutler is not any better at reading defenses. Jay Cutler has made a living throwing the ball into tight spots, if that is what you call reading a defense that your standards are quite low.
Let's recap this quickly shall we? People say that Vince Young looks to run too much, this is not true. He makes reads first, then he runs. He runs so much because his WRs are rarely open. His stats are so low because they drop the ball so much. Another reason why his stats are so low is because his team is terrible all across the board as far as the 4th quarter is concerned and his defense gives up leads. So now Vince Young has to lead them back with pathetic WRs against prevent and he has to force throws. In other words, the deck is stacked against him almost every time he goes out there.
Where you to watch Titan games you would see that Vince Young does everything a QB is supposed to do. ESPN is ready to jump onto the VY is regressing bandwagon because to the average fan it looks that way.
What I would like to see him do more of is put much more zip on his passes, specially the short ones. He seems to like to finese the ball to his receivers a lot. His best passes seem to be when he puts zip on them. Also, the receivers will appreciate it more, not having to wait for the ball as the defenders attack them. Also, slower thrown balls give the defender better chances at it, and more time to adjust if he makes mistakes. That's why Cutler's and Brady's short passes are so effective; they put zip on them.
That is where Micheal Vick has a hand up on VY. Vick has an awesome, powerful arm and could straight tight rope the ball to his recievers.
He runs so much because his WRs are rarely open. His stats are so low because they drop the ball so much.
I disagree with that. He did the same thing in college. He runs because he can. He runs because he doesn't have the rest of the mechanical skills that a normal pocket QB has. He runs because that is his style of play. Even if Chad Johnson, Terrell Ownens, and Randy Moss were his #1, 2, and 3 recievers, he still would run.
I disagree with that. He did the same thing in college. He runs because he can. He runs because he doesn't have the rest of the mechanical skills that a normal pocket QB has. He runs because that is his style of play. Even if Chad Johnson, Terrell Ownens, and Randy Moss were his #1, 2, and 3 recievers, he still would run.
First off if TO or Randy Moss had a run first QB they would tackle him from behind and strip the ball for themselves!
Yes, he did that in college, but every year as a player since he started in college he has improved. The year before they won the BCS game he was a run first QB, the year they won the BSC he still ran first but he passed more. Last year in the NFL he was prone to running first but at the end of the year he was looking for the pass more. This year he has been looking to pass the ball first. When I watch the Titans play that is what I am looking at. Their team is boring, their defense is nothing exciting barring Albert "Headstomp" Haynesworth and the name escapes me of their sack artist but first and foremost I watch Vince Young. His rushing attempts per game have gone down and his passing attempts have gone up. Basically people see that his numbers are bad and that his team is in a slump and then they go "well he had a low wonderlic so he is a less than intelligent QB" and presume that he has not made any progress. This is very far from the truth my friend.
VY isn't "less intelligent", he's straight up dumb. I don't think he'll be able to adapt to the NFL way of the game.
LoyalSoldier
12-14-2007, 04:46 AM
Oh darn, so he is not as good as Tom Brady, you got me there. The only other QB in the same class as Brady is Peyton Manning and they are both first ballot hall of famers. So at this moment Vince Young is not as good as two of the best QBs to ever play the game in his second year starting...
You missed the point completely. A good QB can make mediocre WRs look good. So to say that the interceptions is mostly due to their WR core is not true. Vince has to play a huge part in it as well. I can understand a few tipped balls or perfect passes where the WR didn't go for the ball, but generally if you throw that many interceptions you are doing something wrong. Even the worst WRs can get open.
Now I won't say Vince will never be a good QB. I am just saying as of right now he has some issues.
You missed the point completely. A good QB can make mediocre WRs look good. So to say that the interceptions is mostly due to their WR core is not true. Vince has to play a huge part in it as well. I can understand a few tipped balls or perfect passes where the WR didn't go for the ball, but generally if you throw that many interceptions you are doing something wrong. Even the worst WRs can get open.
Now I won't say Vince will never be a good QB. I am just saying as of right now he has some issues.
Loyal Solider most of the time the guys with the sexy stats have the huge supporting cast. Guys like Manning, Palmer, McNabb, Bulger, Romo and now Derek Anderson all have one thing in common, they are talented as hell and have a lot of help. I see VY play and I see great throws made under duress only to have his WR drop the ball. I mean the way I see it Brady did a lot with bad players last year, but he is Tom Brady. I mean, you can be a hall of fame QB and not be as good a Tom Brady. Most of his issues are because of his supporting cast.
VY isn't "less intelligent", he's straight up dumb. I don't think he'll be able to adapt to the NFL way of the game.
Could you please tell me why you say that SR?
Could you please tell me why you say that SR?
Have you ever actually listened to him speak?
Muh name izzzzzz Viiiinnnnzzzzz Yuuunggggg....I pway foobawwwww
If he can't speak English properly, how the hell is he supposed to play football in the NFL and be successful?
Have you ever actually listened to him speak?
Muh name izzzzzz Viiiinnnnzzzzz Yuuunggggg....I pway foobawwwww
If he can't speak English properly, how the hell is he supposed to play football in the NFL and be successful?
Ok my first reaction was me laughing my arse off. And yes, I have heard him speak and honestly he sounds fine to me. I think I sense a little exaggeration here.
Ok my first reaction was me laughing my arse off. And yes, I have heard him speak and honestly he sounds fine to me. I think I sense a little exaggeration here.
Of course. I just cannot stand Vince Young. I live in Texas and have to hear about how a mediocre quarterback (at best) is going to be the next thing to make the NFL his *****. I get sick of it, and him.
Of course. I just cannot stand Vince Young. I live in Texas and have to hear about how a mediocre quarterback (at best) is going to be the next thing to make the NFL his *****. I get sick of it, and him.
I think very highly of Vince Young. I often think that the Bengals would be better if we traded Palmer for him, although I think Chad Johnson would probably have a heart attack.
I think very highly of Vince Young. I often think that the Bengals would be better if we traded Palmer for him, although I think Chad Johnson would probably have a heart attack.
VY will never be as good as Carson Palmer. He's a top 5 QB. VY will never be a top 5 QB. VY will never be as good as Brady, Manning, Brees, Palmer, McNabb (who's best years are behind him), Romo, Favre, etc.
VY will never be as good as Carson Palmer. He's a top 5 QB. VY will never be a top 5 QB. VY will never be as good as Brady, Manning, Brees, Palmer, McNabb (who's best years are behind him), Romo, Favre, etc.
I think that Vince Young is a manbeast. The guy has all the physical tools and all a QB can do is get the ball to the right place. He has been doing that pretty much all year. He has had his poor moments, but so has Cutler. And by the way Cutler is really starting to impress me. I was very much a Cutler doubter when he was drafted by the Broncs. He has a long ways to go, but I think he and VY are on track. However, how ironic is it that the best QB supposedly was going to be Leinart and he could be on his way out of Arizona?
VY is a hell of an athlete. Only a fool would deny that. However, as Micheal Vick has proven, you can be the best athlete in the world and still not be able to play the QB position if you're not smart. VY will never see the success that the rest of the top 10 QBs will because he doesn't have the mental capacity.
Also, Add Matt Hasselbeck to the list of QBs I made previously.
TXBRONC
12-14-2007, 08:24 AM
I think very highly of Vince Young. I often think that the Bengals would be better if we traded Palmer for him, although I think Chad Johnson would probably have a heart attack.
You would trade a proven elite quarterback for Vince Young? That would be insane.
You would trade a proven elite quarterback for Vince Young? That would be insane.
I've heard more ridiculous things.
Watchthemiddle
12-14-2007, 01:54 PM
Well Cutler might be "hot" and Eli "not" but one is going to make the playoffs again, and one is not. :rolleyes:
Well Cutler might be "hot" and Eli "not" but one is going to make the playoffs again, and one is not. :rolleyes:
Did you think of that little poem all on your own? :laugh:
You would trade a proven elite quarterback for Vince Young? That would be insane.
How? As much as I love Carson Palmer (my favorite player ever period) the guy has lost a lot after the knee surgery. He is not the 05 monster that he was, and believe me in 05 Carson Palmer was playing like Peyton. The issue with Palmer is that it is a myth that he is a statue in the pocket. It is not a myth that when I watch him now I am starting to see a guy who just throws the ball down the field as quickly as possible and is playing poorly this year. I don't really know if you could call Palmer elite. In 05 he was elite, and in 06 he had a nice year but if two years make you elite than you could easily put Romo and Brees ahead of him. That would then have the list be (in no specific order) Brady, Manning, Romo, Brees, Favre all ahead of Palmer. I mean you could argue that Palmer should be ahead of Brees or Romo right now (although Romo is the better QB at this moment like the others are).
Vince Young is a game winner, a play maker and a gamer. He has the heart to win and if you have watched him this year you would see that he is playing pretty well. He would have a lot of W's this year if his team didnt choke constantly. Carson Palmer is not a winner like Vince Young. Carson Palmer has not had any amazing moments where he leads his team back from behind since that crazy game he had against the Ravens in 04. Carson Palmer makes plays sure, but not when we need them like Vince Young does. I don't think I could describe Palmer as a gamer. I know I could about Vince Young.
LoyalSoldier
12-14-2007, 04:05 PM
Loyal Solider most of the time the guys with the sexy stats have the huge supporting cast. Guys like Manning, Palmer, McNabb, Bulger, Romo and now Derek Anderson all have one thing in common, they are talented as hell and have a lot of help. I see VY play and I see great throws made under duress only to have his WR drop the ball. I mean the way I see it Brady did a lot with bad players last year, but he is Tom Brady. I mean, you can be a hall of fame QB and not be as good a Tom Brady. Most of his issues are because of his supporting cast.
I am sorry, but when you are the 3rd best in the league at throwing interceptions you are doing something wrong. You can't tell me that every other team in the league has better WRs than the Titans. Damon Huard doesn't have that spectacular of a receiving core and we know their O-Line has been horrid this year and he still has better stats than Young. Carson Palmer has a very good WR core, but he is worst in the league right now.
If most of your throws are on the money even the worst WRs can catch them. If you have 17 interceptions I think a good majority of them were bad throws. Just look at the two he threw against us. One was very far behind the receiver and the other was just a plain out bad throw.
I am sorry, but when you are the 3rd best in the league at throwing interceptions you are doing something wrong. You can't tell me that every other team in the league has better WRs than the Titans. Damon Huard doesn't have that spectacular of a receiving core and we know their O-Line has been horrid this year and he still has better stats than Young. Carson Palmer has a very good WR core, but he is worst in the league right now.
If most of your throws are on the money even the worst WRs can catch them. If you have 17 interceptions I think a good majority of them were bad throws. Just look at the two he threw against us. One was very far behind the receiver and the other was just a plain out bad throw.
Samie Parker is better than anyone they have LS. Huard at least has one of the best Tight Ends to ever play the game.
Time and time again I have told you that I have watched Vince Young play a lot. I have seen him make on the money throws under duress all the time. Here, tell me how many games you saw VY play? Denver right? I guess you missed all those plays he made that his WRs dropped the ball right? The Titans could have very well won that game if it where not for their "pass catchers"
This is the story of Vince Young this year. Started off fairly strong, his team hit a rough patch. He himself hit a rough patch but rebounded and has been doing everything a QB has to do to win the game. The rest of his team barring his RBs.........not so much.
TXBRONC
12-14-2007, 07:09 PM
Samie Parker is better than anyone they have LS. Huard at least has one of the best Tight Ends to ever play the game.
Time and time again I have told you that I have watched Vince Young play a lot. I have seen him make on the money throws under duress all the time. Here, tell me how many games you saw VY play? Denver right? I guess you missed all those plays he made that his WRs dropped the ball right? The Titans could have very well won that game if it where not for their "pass catchers"
This is the story of Vince Young this year. Started off fairly strong, his team hit a rough patch. He himself hit a rough patch but rebounded and has been doing everything a QB has to do to win the game. The rest of his team barring his RBs.........not so much.
Your argument is not very good. Even with bad receivers, good quaterbacks wont go over month without tossing a touchdown pass. Vince Youg is not all that and a bag of chips.
Watchthemiddle
12-14-2007, 07:14 PM
Did you think of that little poem all on your own? :laugh:
Funny you ask...I guess I am a poet and just don't know it...:cool:
LoyalSoldier
12-14-2007, 09:07 PM
Samie Parker is better than anyone they have LS. Huard at least has one of the best Tight Ends to ever play the game.
Time and time again I have told you that I have watched Vince Young play a lot. I have seen him make on the money throws under duress all the time. Here, tell me how many games you saw VY play? Denver right? I guess you missed all those plays he made that his WRs dropped the ball right? The Titans could have very well won that game if it where not for their "pass catchers"
This is the story of Vince Young this year. Started off fairly strong, his team hit a rough patch. He himself hit a rough patch but rebounded and has been doing everything a QB has to do to win the game. The rest of his team barring his RBs.........not so much.
See the thing is you have said when I told you about the WR core Brady played with last year and you said "Well that is Tom Brady", but at the same time you tell me that the only reason Young is throwing so many interceptions is because of his WRs.
Also as for his stats here is his TD/Int by the weeks
Bold Games are where he threw more TDs than Int. Under lined are where he threw more interceptions than TDs. Games with equal TDs and Ints are left normal.
Week 1 0/1
Week 2 1/0
Week 3 2/1
Week 4 0/3
Week 5 0/1
Week 6 0/0 (Did not play)
Week 7 0/0
Week 8 0/2
Week 9 1/2
Week 10 1/2 (@ Denver)
Week 11 0/1
Week 12 2/1
Week 13 0/2
Three games where he had more TDs to Ints compared to eight where he threw more interceptions. You can't have that many games without having something wrong with the way you are throwing it. Even with a mediocre WR core that is just not possible.
A good WR can occasionally turn a bad pass into a catch, but more often than not a bad pass will be an interception or incompletion.
TXBRONC
12-14-2007, 09:16 PM
See the thing is you have said when I told you about the WR core Brady played with last year and you said "Well that is Tom Brady", but at the same time you tell me that the only reason Young is throwing so many interceptions is because of his WRs.
Also as for his stats here is his TD/Int by the weeks
Bold Games are where he threw more TDs than Int. Under lined are where he threw more interceptions than TDs. Games with equal TDs and Ints are left normal.
Week 1 0/1
Week 2 1/0
Week 3 2/1
Week 4 0/3
Week 5 0/1
Week 6 0/0 (Did not play)
Week 7 0/0
Week 8 0/2
Week 9 1/2
Week 10 1/2 (@ Denver)
Week 11 0/1
Week 12 2/1
Week 13 0/2
Three games where he had more TDs to Ints compared to eight where he threw more interceptions. You can't have that many games without having something wrong with the way you are throwing it. Even with a horrible WR core that is just not possible.
A good WR can occasionally turn a bad pass into a catch, but more often than not a bad pass will be an interception or incompletion.
Not only that did you count up the number of games that he a touchdown pass? If is able to throw at least one touchdown pass in the last two games he'll break even as number of games where he threw a least one touchdown verses the number of games he got skunked. He's already went eight games with out a touchdown that speaks volumes about his inability to read defenses. And when a quarterback has streak of five straight weeks without a touchdown pass that is just plain pathetic.
LoyalSoldier
12-14-2007, 09:19 PM
Not only that did you count up the number of games that he a touchdown pass? If is able to throw at least one touchdown pass in the last two games he'll break even as number of games where he threw a least one touchdown verses the number of games he got skunked. He's already went eight games with out a touchdown that speaks volumes about his inability to read defenses. And when a quarterback has streak of five straight weeks without a touchdown pass that is just plain pathetic.
I can do it on one hand. Five. Two games where he threw 2 TD passes against the Saints and Texans. Only other game where he had more TDs than Ints is against Indy where he only threw 1 TD.
TXBRONC
12-14-2007, 09:29 PM
I can do it on one hand. Five. Two games where he threw 2 TD passes.
And looking at his performance for the year it looks like it will be a monumental task for him get at least one touchdown in each of the last two games.
I really wonder if the three or four other teams that clearly had a need for a quarterback had to do it all over again if maybe they would change their minds knowing what they know now. I suppose you could automatically take the Titans out of the mix because Bud Adams couldn't see taking anyone else but Vince Young. It's not a wise move but so be it.
Watchthemiddle
12-14-2007, 09:31 PM
Since you guys are all stat guys and I dont' know where to find stuff...:laugh:...can someone post Youngs record as a starter vs Cutlers?
I know Young has been hurt some this year, but maybe just compare the first 16 games as a starter.
I would like to compare Leinarts also, but he has been hurt too much for comparison.
LoyalSoldier
12-14-2007, 09:33 PM
And looking at his performance for the year it looks like it will be a monumental task for him get at least one touchdown in each of the last two games.
I really wonder if the three or four other teams that clearly had a need for a quarterback had to do it all over again if maybe they would change their minds knowing what they know now. I suppose you could automatically take the Titans out of the mix because Bud Adams couldn't see taking anyone else but Vince Young. It's not a wise move but so be it.
I think Young still has the tools to become better, but he is the one with some problems. He needs to improve.
I won't say that he will never become good, but if he doesn't realize something he is doing isn't working then he won't go very far.
TXBRONC
12-14-2007, 09:39 PM
I think Young still has the tools to become better, but he is the one with some problems. He needs to improve.
I won't say that he will never become good, but if he doesn't realize something he is doing isn't working then he won't go very far.
I agree Young has the phyisical tools to be a good quarterback, nevertheless has to do a better job in seveal areas.
Watchthemiddle
12-14-2007, 09:42 PM
I think Young still has the tools to become better, but he is the one with some problems. He needs to improve.
I won't say that he will never become good, but if he doesn't realize something he is doing isn't working then he won't go very far.
Taking off the orange colored glasses...Your quote could go for Young and Cutler. Cutler has some problems as well. What was his biggest negative coming out of college? He throws off of his back foot WAY too much. We see it many times a game. And not only that, but he throws off his back foot into multiple coverage. Is it a lack or reading defenses? Is it a lack of coaching to snap him out of throwing like that? Does he rely too much on his arm and not enough on his head?
I am not knocking the guy, its just He has all the tools to be better as well, he just needs to improve.
LoyalSoldier
12-14-2007, 09:46 PM
Since you guys are all stat guys and I dont' know where to find stuff...:laugh:...can someone post Youngs record as a starter vs Cutlers?
I know Young has been hurt some this year, but maybe just compare the first 16 games as a starter.
I would like to compare Leinarts also, but he has been hurt too much for comparison.
Cutler 8-11
Young 14-11
TXBRONC
12-14-2007, 09:55 PM
Since you guys are all stat guys and I dont' know where to find stuff...:laugh:...can someone post Youngs record as a starter vs Cutlers?
I know Young has been hurt some this year, but maybe just compare the first 16 games as a starter.
I would like to compare Leinarts also, but he has been hurt too much for comparison.
It's a well know fact Young has more victories, however he as a better defense and Fisher doesn't put the pressure on Young to win games for them. It's on their defense and their running game.
Watchthemiddle
12-14-2007, 10:33 PM
Cutler 8-11
Young 14-11
Interesting. Thanks
Stargazer
12-15-2007, 02:29 AM
For a QB who hasn't played one complete season from beginning to end. He's doing great in my eyes.
:salute:
Tned-Mobile
12-15-2007, 12:39 PM
Finally got around to reading this. I'm looking forward to wathing him for years to come.
Interesting. Thanks
Kyle Orton has them both beat at 10-5. :cheers:
TXBRONC
12-15-2007, 01:45 PM
Kyle Orton has them both beat at 10-5. :cheers:
The last time Orton started any games was two year ago right?
The last time Orton started any games was two year ago right?
Yep, and he had the lowest QB rating in the league, at 59.7. But forget how he actually performed, he was one of those "just win QBs" that the Bears really like. :wink:
Lonestar
12-15-2007, 02:52 PM
Yep, and he had the lowest QB rating in the league, at 59.7. But forget how he actually performed, he was one of those "just win QBs" that the Bears really like. :wink:
But then again winning it the reason for the season..
But then again winning it the reason for the season..
No arguments there; if you believe a QB performing badly helps a team win, then cool. :wink: Hey, we all know Rex Grossman beat the Cardinals by throwing INTs, having fumbles, and not getting the offense to score any points at all. But like I said, the Bears like those "just win" QBs. :D
Back on topic with Cutler, he's just broken 3,000 yards passing for the season. Not bad for a QB his first year starting, and only his 2nd year as a pro! :rockon: And desite the loss to the Texans, he put up decent numbers ... 27/39, 254 yards, 1 TD/0 INTs. Not bad; he was sacked 5 times, but considering how mobile Cutler is, and how fast he usually gets rid of the ball, that might have to do with our OL and the Texans DL.
Back on topic with Cutler, he's just broken 3,000 yards passing for the season. Not bad for a QB his first year starting, and only his 2nd year as a pro! :rockon: And desite the loss to the Texans, he put up decent numbers ... 27/39, 254 yards, 1 TD/0 INTs. Not bad; he was sacked 5 times, but considering how mobile Cutler is, and how fast he usually gets rid of the ball, that might have to do with our OL and the Texans DL.
They showed an interesting stat during the Houston game. John Elway's delivery of the ball was .30 seconds. Cutler is .37. Not very imporant, that .07, but it was an interesting stat.
TXBRONC
12-15-2007, 03:35 PM
No arguments there; if you believe a QB performing badly helps a team win, then cool. :wink: Hey, we all know Rex Grossman beat the Cardinals by throwing INTs, having fumbles, and not getting the offense to score any points at all. But like I said, the Bears like those "just win" QBs. :D
In my opinion a lot of it has to do with type of team that is around a quarterback like a Rex Grossman. If its really good team they win in spite of the errors, but if its bad team that like adding nitro to a fire.
They showed an interesting stat during the Houston game. John Elway's delivery of the ball was .30 seconds. Cutler is .37. Not very imporant, that .07, but it was an interesting stat.
That is amazing, no wonder Elway's receivers got the Elway Cross. Cutler's is pretty close, though. One thing with Culter this season as compared to last season, is he doesn't try to hold onto the ball very long. That's a great thing to learn real fast; Big Ben still, as well as he's been playing, makes some of his own problems while holding on to the football too long. And David Carr, 6 years in the league and he still hasn't learned.
They showed an interesting stat during the Houston game. John Elway's delivery of the ball was .30 seconds. Cutler is .37. Not very imporant, that .07, but it was an interesting stat.
Yes, and they were saying that one area he would need to improve is dropping that extra 3/4 of a second or so. Shortening his windup a little and getting rid of the ball faster. They were saying the greats were like Elway's .3.
In my opinion a lot of it has to do with type of team that is around a quarterback like a Rex Grossman. If its really good team they win in spite of the errors, but if its bad team that like adding nitro to a fire.
Yeah, that's the way I see it too. :cheers:
Yes, and they were saying that one area he would need to improve is dropping that extra 3/4 of a second or so. Shortening his windup a little and getting rid of the ball faster. They were saying the greats were like Elway's .3.
That's pretty cool if he can shave that off, while still having his accuracy and zip. Right now, though, he's doing pretty okay. In the article after the Broncos beat the Steelers, it showed that Cutler made his decisions to get rid of the ball so fast that he made their pass rush very ineffective. Right now, if Cutler doesn't have the time to throw or even to just to get rid of the ball, despite his mobility and his current habbit of getting rid of the ball fast, then the offensive line is probably doing something wrong.
TXBRONC
12-15-2007, 04:40 PM
That's pretty cool if he can shave that off, while still having his accuracy and zip. Right now, though, he's doing pretty okay. In the article after the Broncos beat the Steelers, it showed that Cutler made his decisions to get rid of the ball so fast that he made their pass rush very ineffective. Right now, if Cutler doesn't have the time to throw or even to just to get rid of the ball, despite his mobility and his current habbit of getting rid of the ball fast, then the offensive line is probably doing something wrong.
I don't see why he couldn't, according to Medford Bronco Brady was able to do it.
See the thing is you have said when I told you about the WR core Brady played with last year and you said "Well that is Tom Brady", but at the same time you tell me that the only reason Young is throwing so many interceptions is because of his WRs.
Also as for his stats here is his TD/Int by the weeks
Bold Games are where he threw more TDs than Int. Under lined are where he threw more interceptions than TDs. Games with equal TDs and Ints are left normal.
Week 1 0/1
Week 2 1/0
Week 3 2/1
Week 4 0/3
Week 5 0/1
Week 6 0/0 (Did not play)
Week 7 0/0
Week 8 0/2
Week 9 1/2
Week 10 1/2 (@ Denver)
Week 11 0/1
Week 12 2/1
Week 13 0/2
Three games where he had more TDs to Ints compared to eight where he threw more interceptions. You can't have that many games without having something wrong with the way you are throwing it. Even with a mediocre WR core that is just not possible.
A good WR can occasionally turn a bad pass into a catch, but more often than not a bad pass will be an interception or incompletion.
Ok LS, do you really mean to tell me that his WR core is even mediocre?
A good WR can turn a bad pass into a catch but more importantly he can get OPEN. Here is a challenge to anyone who thinks I am wrong, watch a few Titan games this year, and watch their WRs and VY. I can save you some time and tell you that you will see VY look to pass first and make great reads, and then you will see his WRs never being open and dropping balls. And for the last time the reason he has so many INTs probably has something to do with gee I dont know having to take risky passes at the end of the game because his defense is a terrible 4th quarter defense. In other words, when your team gives up a leawd and you are left with very little time to win the game you have to take a lot of risky throws.
Watchthemiddle
12-15-2007, 08:13 PM
Back on topic with Cutler, he's just broken 3,000 yards passing for the season. Not bad for a QB his first year starting, and only his 2nd year as a pro! :rockon: And desite the loss to the Texans, he put up decent numbers ... 27/39, 254 yards, 1 TD/0 INTs. Not bad; he was sacked 5 times, but considering how mobile Cutler is, and how fast he usually gets rid of the ball, that might have to do with our OL and the Texans DL.
I hope as fans, we aren't leaning towards the comment of..."we lost, but Cutler put up big numbers".
I don't want to be the next Bengals. I don't want to be so caught up in the stats, that we forget about the win/loss record.
I hope as fans, we aren't leaning towards the comment of..."we lost, but Cutler put up big numbers".
I don't want to be the next Bengals. I don't want to be so caught up in the stats, that we forget about the win/loss record.
Until the QBs start playing defense and start blocking, its perfectly valid to point to stats in evaluating QBs independent of winning. QBs are not starting pitchers.
Watchthemiddle
12-15-2007, 08:24 PM
Until the QBs start playing defense and start blocking, its perfectly valid to point to stats in evaluating QBs independent of winning. QBs are not starting pitchers.
Oh I beg to differ my friend. Not around here...and not as a Broncos QB. Didn't you know that the QB always gets the blame for losses and credit for wins? :rolleyes:
Its been that way around here for years.
*sarcasm off*
I hope as fans, we aren't leaning towards the comment of..."we lost, but Cutler put up big numbers".
I don't want to be the next Bengals. I don't want to be so caught up in the stats, that we forget about the win/loss record.
Who says the Bengals are caught up in stats? Please explain this to me.
Lonestar
12-15-2007, 08:51 PM
Oh I beg to differ my friend. Not around here...and not as a Broncos QB. Didn't you know that the QB always gets the blame for losses and credit for wins? :rolleyes:
Its been that way around here for years.
*sarcasm off*
I think you meant credit for the losses and the team gets the wins. At least in Jakes case..
I think you meant credit for the losses and the team gets the wins. At least in Jakes case..
And here we go....
You couldnt resist could you?
You guys have fun with yet another Jake Plummer discussion.
Watchthemiddle
12-15-2007, 09:11 PM
:noidea::doh:
I think you meant credit for the losses and the team gets the wins. At least in Jakes case..
:doh:
How could I have forgotten that
:noidea:
Lonestar
12-15-2007, 09:49 PM
And here we go....
You couldnt resist could you?
You guys have fun with yet another Jake Plummer discussion.
OK, thanks for giving your permission..
OK, thanks for giving your permission..
You should have asked first.
TXBRONC
12-15-2007, 09:52 PM
I'm pretty sure this thread isn't about Jake Plummer.
Lonestar
12-15-2007, 09:52 PM
:noidea:
:doh:
How could I have forgotten that
:noidea:
It got awfully bad somethimes did it not?
Some folks just do not understand loyality.:salute:
Watchthemiddle and Jrwiz,
Please keep the discussion on Cutler, Young, and all the other young QBs.
Ok LS, do you really mean to tell me that his WR core is even mediocre?
A good WR can turn a bad pass into a catch but more importantly he can get OPEN. Here is a challenge to anyone who thinks I am wrong, watch a few Titan games this year, and watch their WRs and VY. I can save you some time and tell you that you will see VY look to pass first and make great reads, and then you will see his WRs never being open and dropping balls. And for the last time the reason he has so many INTs probably has something to do with gee I dont know having to take risky passes at the end of the game because his defense is a terrible 4th quarter defense. In other words, when your team gives up a leawd and you are left with very little time to win the game you have to take a lot of risky throws.
If he's throwing to WRs who aren't open, he isn't making great reads.
If he's throwing to WRs who aren't open, he isn't making great reads.
At the end of the game you don't have much a choice SR. That is where Carson Palmer has thrown a damn good chunk of his INTs this year. What is he supposed to do, throw the ball out of bounds two or three times on the final drive?
At the end of the game you don't have much a choice SR. That is where Carson Palmer has thrown a damn good chunk of his INTs this year. What is he supposed to do, throw the ball out of bounds two or three times on the final drive?
The difference between a top 5 QB like Palmer or Brees and VY is that Palmer and Brees have the smarts and the ability to read the defense and do their checkdowns BEFORE the pocket collapses and BEFORE they have to throw it away. Palmer and Brees are both having off years, but when they both play like they're capable of, there are only two other QBs in the league that are better than them and I don't think I need to say their names. VY isn't even worthy of being in the same breath of air as them.
The Titans are a rush oriented offense. I think their passing plays are kept simple for Young to absorb, and maybe that makes it easier for the defense to anticipate WR routes. Also, the Titans try not to pass the ball too much, so Young doesn't get much of a groove passing, and his receivers don't get much of a groove catching.
The better designed run first offense with occasional passing is the Jaguars, but you have to take into account that Garrard's been in that system a few years, and he's pretty comfortable in it. Young is still trying to change his game and become a better passer.
The problem with your observation omac is that they are a run first team and run more than not because of VY's inability to get it done in the passing game. Garrard can do that in Jacksonville because he can actually throw pretty well.
The problem with your observation omac is that they are a run first team and run more than not because of VY's inability to get it done in the passing game. Garrard can do that in Jacksonville because he can actually throw pretty well.
I agree with you that Young is not a very good passer right now; actually, I think very inconsistent is the better description, as he's had a few very, very good games.
I don't agree with you, though, that they're a run-first team because of Young's inabilities as a passer. They are a run-first team, because that's the way Fisher wants his offense to be, primarily for ball-control, time of possesion, which complements their strong defense. A guy like Peyton Manning will be severely underutilized in this type of a system.
I don't think Young will ever be like Peyton, but he doesn't have to be for this offense. He just has to be as efficient and effective as Garrard is for Jacksonville, and in the future, he might. It took time for Garrard to become as good as he's playing now; he wasn't always like that ... far from it.
One problem with Vince Young, besides his throwing mechanics, is that he's not good at passing while on the move, and he needs to develop that too.
Give Young some time and he MIGHT turn out to be a really good QB, and if he doesn't, well good for the Titans they have such a great rushing offense, and a great defense.
You have to design your offense around the strength of the offense. If VY had a better passing ability, Fisher would adapt his offense to better suit the QB.
You have to design your offense around the strength of the offense. If VY had a better passing ability, Fisher would adapt his offense to better suit the QB.
I disagree. The Titans have ALWAYS been a run first team under Fisher. How many teams can have a RB that ran the ball 400 times in a year?
I disagree. The Titans have ALWAYS been a run first team under Fisher. How many teams can have a RB that ran the ball 400 times in a year?
The only time in the 20 years of stats I just looked at the Houston/Tennessee franchise had a running back with 400 carries in a season was in 2000 when Eddie George had 403 carries.
The only time in the 20 years of stats I just looked at the Houston/Tennessee franchise had a running back with 400 carries in a season was in 2000 when Eddie George had 403 carries.
And that is my point, that pretty much shows their mentality. They have always been a run first team with Fisher. I am not saying that the one individual year proves that they are a high running team but look at the rush attempts that they as a team had and compare it with others. Fisher runs the ball, first and foremost.
And that is my point, that pretty much shows their mentality. They have always been a run first team with Fisher. I am not saying that the one individual year proves that they are a high running team but look at the rush attempts that they as a team had and compare it with others. Fisher runs the ball, first and foremost.
You can't prove a point you're trying to make for VY with stats from a team that went to the Super Bowl with McNair, Eddie George, Mason, Wycheck, etc.
McNair had three people with 50+ receptions that year and he missed two games in which Neil O'Donnell stepped in for him.
Through 14 games this year, as a comparison, VY only has 2032 passing yards, over 800 less than what McNair had in 14 games in 2000. He has ZERO recievers with 50 catches, closest being Gauge and Scaife with 42. Their leading rusher, LenDale white, only has 241 carries and 867 yards.
As a team, they have 432 rushing attempts which is good for second in the league and seventh in the league with 1736 yards.
BUT, in terms of total offensive output in yards, they rank 21st in the league with 310 yards per game. Their passing game is ranked 27th in the league with 2,295 total passing yards.
That means that as a passer, which is the QB's primary job, VY is not successful.
Class dismissed.
You can't prove a point you're trying to make for VY with stats from a team that went to the Super Bowl with McNair, Eddie George, Mason, Wycheck, etc.
McNair had three people with 50+ receptions that year and he missed two games in which Neil O'Donnell stepped in for him.
Through 14 games this year, as a comparison, VY only has 2032 passing yards, over 800 less than what McNair had in 14 games in 2000. He has ZERO recievers with 50 catches, closest being Gauge and Scaife with 42. Their leading rusher, LenDale white, only has 241 carries and 867 yards.
As a team, they have 432 rushing attempts which is good for second in the league and seventh in the league with 1736 yards.
BUT, in terms of total offensive output in yards, they rank 21st in the league with 310 yards per game. Their passing game is ranked 27th in the league with 2,295 total passing yards.
That means that as a passer, which is the QB's primary job, VY is not successful.
Class dismissed.
Your right, Steve McNair was a very fine QB that year and umm those guys that where WRS and Tight Ends COULD CATCH THE BALL AND GET OPEN. My god, this is not hard at all whatsoever. What do you get when you combine a team with a defense that gives up leads late in the games, bad WRs and WRs that have a high amount of drops? Well one thing you get is a team that won't make the playoffs, and the other is a QB who can do almost everything right and still have poor stats. In this case we HAVE BOTH. How many Titan games have you watched? Matter of fact, for everyone who is trying to prove me wrong how many have you all seen? When you come back with the answer of not very many you will (or should) get my point. You are going off of stats, not the entire situation.
I saw a game once where Carson Palmer was on the money all day long. The problem was that CJ and TJ had both had a big off day and dropped balls and tipped balls up into the air and fell down on routes and ran the wrong route on more than one occasion. So even though Palmer did everything right for the most part his stat sheet was as unsexy as Rose O friggin Donnel in a bikini covered in mud.
They have the second highest amount of rushing attempts this year (nothing new the Titans have always loved to run the ball a lot), and not a single good receiver. Seeing Red, I usually can agree with what you say as far as the NFL is concerned but you are wrong, and very much so at that.
Class Dismissed.
They have the second highest amount of rushing attempts this year (nothing new the Titans have always loved to run the ball a lot), and not a single good receiver. Seeing Red, I usually can agree with what you say as far as the NFL is concerned but you are wrong, and very much so at that.
Class Dismissed.
Stats don't lie. Argue all you want, but VY's stats are horrible as a result of him being a bad QB. McNair's recievers were mediocre...Mason didn't do squat in Baltimore and who the hell knows where Dyson is. Wycheck led a half way decent career, and Eddie George flopped after about 2002 (he also caught 50 passes that year)
So far as the rest of your post goes, I'm still sitting at my desk waiting for class to end because what you just threw up was not school.
Stats don't lie. Argue all you want, but VY's stats are horrible as a result of him being a bad QB.
So far as the rest of your post goes, I'm still sitting at my desk waiting for class to end because what you just threw up was not school.
Stats show that numerically speaking Vince Young is having a poor year. As why that is the case this year is apparent if you watch the Titan games. I don't know how much access you have to the NFL where you are at, but my point still remains.
Stats show that numerically speaking Vince Young is having a poor year. As why that is the case this year is apparent if you watch the Titan games. I don't know how much access you have to the NFL where you are at, but my point still remains.
I have as much access here as I do at home. YOUR POINT IS NOT VALID, that's my point, and everyone else's point who is arguing with you. VY is having a terrible year statistically, as he will have many, many more because his style of play is not condusive to success in the NFL, period. Ask Culpepper, Akili Smith, Eric Crouch, Micheal Vick, etc, who were all great running QBs in college, how well it works in the NFL. None of them were able to adapt their game to fit the NFL. McNabb did and was successful.
I have as much access here as I do at home. YOUR POINT IS NOT VALID, that's my point, and everyone else's point who is arguing with you. VY is having a terrible year statistically, as he will have many, many more because his style of play is not condusive to success in the NFL, period. Ask Culpepper, Akili Smith, Eric Crouch, Micheal Vick, etc, who were all great running QBs in college, how well it works in the NFL. None of them were able to adapt their game to fit the NFL. McNabb did and was successful.
My point is very valid. Daunte Culpepper was one of the best Qbs in the league for quite some years. He never recovered from his injury SR. Just saying "he is bad because his stats are bad" and having that as your entire argument is pretty damn weak. I am right, you are wrong. This has been shown over and over and over and over again. There have been exactly no counter arguments that held any weight against anything that I have been saying in this entire thread.
King87 1
Everyone else in this thread-10000
My point is very valid. Daunte Culpepper was one of the best Qbs in the league for quite some years. He never recovered from his injury SR. Just saying "he is bad because his stats are bad" and having that as your entire argument is pretty damn weak. I am right, you are wrong. This has been shown over and over and over and over again. There have been exactly no counter arguments that held any weight against anything that I have been saying in this entire thread.
King87 1
Everyone else in this thread-10000
He was the best QB in the league for ONE year and he had Randy Moss. After Randy Moss left he sucked, got hurt, and still sucks. He's recovered from his injury, but he's not a good QB. He'd be a better LB than QB.
You're ridiculously cocky for someone who doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.
Prove to me that VY is as good as you say he is. You've yet to do that.
He was the best QB in the league for ONE year and he had Randy Moss. After Randy Moss left he sucked, got hurt, and still sucks. He's recovered from his injury, but he's not a good QB. He'd be a better LB than QB.
You're ridiculously cocky for someone who doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.
Prove to me that VY is as good as you say he is. You've yet to do that.
That link right there will show you several nice seasons about Culpepper. I will give you that Randy Moss can make a huge difference, but still it would be hard to say that Culpepper was not a pretty good QB.
Last year Vince Young came on strong at the end of the year and played pretty damn well. This year if you WATCHED HIS GAMES (see a trend here?) you would see that he is not playing poorly. I can go ahead and repeat the same points that you cannot refute (or anyone else for that matter) but I don't really think it would do anything other than be IGNORED for the umptenth time.
By the way, you opened the door for cockiness by telling me that "class is dismissed" when you still cannot put up a remotely effective counter argument other than "his stats suck but other than looking at the entire situation I will just go by that".
http://www.nfl.com/players/daunteculpepper/careerstats?id=CUL586056
2000, 2003, 2004 were Culpepper's better years. Not anything special for as long as he's been in the league. As you put it, that he was the best QB in the NFL for many years, you are inaccurate.
My arguement the whole time has been stats. VY sucks, according to his stats. After all, according to you in another thread, stats over a career are what gets players in to the HOF, not potential or what a player could have done.
So, once you get your story straight and ironed out, come back and talk to me, because as usual all you're doing is contradicting yourself and stepping on your own feet.
Bottom line, while VY may be a hell of an athlete and a physical specimin, he is not well suited to play QB in the NFL and won't ever be more than a mediocre QB with a whole hell of a lot of athletic ability.
2000, 2003, 2004 were Culpepper's better years. Not anything special for as long as he's been in the league. As you put it, that he was the best QB in the NFL for many years, you are inaccurate.
My arguement the whole time has been stats. VY sucks, according to his stats. After all, according to you in another thread, stats over a career are what gets players in to the HOF, not potential or what a player could have done.
So, once you get your story straight and ironed out, come back and talk to me, because as usual all you're doing is contradicting yourself and stepping on your own feet.
Bottom line, while VY may be a hell of an athlete and a physical specimin, he is not well suited to play QB in the NFL and won't ever be more than a mediocre QB with a whole hell of a lot of athletic ability.
I said he was one of the best QBs in the league. And honestly he was, I was never a huge fan of his because he played in a dome but it was hard to deny that he was a pretty damn fine QB.
Are we talking about an entire career or this entire year? If a guy puts up an entire careers worth of bad stats than that is completely different than a bad year.
I am not contradicting myself, nor am I stepping on my own feet.
You have to design your offense around the strength of the offense. If VY had a better passing ability, Fisher would adapt his offense to better suit the QB.
I guess we'll have to disagree here.
Some teams acquire talent then mold their system to fit that talent; other teams have a system, then acquire talent that would fit in that system. Case in point, the Broncos have had the habbit of acquiring athletic, but usually undersized, offensive linemen to fit their zone blocking scheme. They had a chance to draft either of 2 quarterbacks who have shown great passing ability or potential, but they chose instead the athletic one who could make plays with his legs. If they were planning to run an Indy or NE style passing offense, they wouldn't have even considered Young, but for the offense that they did run, Young to them seemed like a very good fit.
In the case of the Colts, yes they molded the offense for Peyton. For the Titans, Fisher wanted to continue with his run-heavy offense, and they probably thought Young was perfect for it. That, or they were just Tennessee fans. :D
VY won't ever put up HOF numbers. He'll never win a Super Bowl as a starter. He might see some Pro Bowl time, but not as long as he's sharing the AFC with Manning, Brady, Palmer, Big Ben, Cutler, Schaub (who will be a Pro-Bowl QB), and Garrard (who is Pro-Bowl capable if he can stay healthy). Every single one of those QBs I just listed put up better numbers this year than Young and those are just AFC.
I guess we'll have to disagree here.
Some teams acquire talent then mold their system to fit that talent; other teams have a system, then acquire talent that would fit in that system. Case in point, the Broncos have had the habbit of acquiring athletic, but usually undersized, offensive linemen to fit their zone blocking scheme. They had a chance to draft either of 2 quarterbacks who have shown great passing ability or potential, but they chose instead the athletic one who could make plays with his legs. If they were planning to run an Indy or NE style passing offense, they wouldn't have even considered Young, but for the offense that they did run, Young to them seemed like a very good fit.
In the case of the Colts, yes they molded the offense for Peyton. For the Titans, Fisher wanted to continue with his run-heavy offense, and they probably thought Young was perfect for it. That, or they were just Tennessee fans. :D
I can agree with that.
VY won't ever put up HOF numbers. He'll never win a Super Bowl as a starter. He might see some Pro Bowl time, but not as long as he's sharing the AFC with Manning, Brady, Palmer, Big Ben, Cutler, Schaub (who will be a Pro-Bowl QB), and Garrard (who is Pro-Bowl capable if he can stay healthy). Every single one of those QBs I just listed put up better numbers this year than Young and those are just AFC.
I agree with you that Young doesn't consistently put up great passing numbers, and he may not ever, but he may not need to. The Ravens won the Superbowl through their defense first; they didn't have a great quarterback at the helm. Young may still win a Superbowl with the Titans if he can at least become more consistent with his passing. On the Pro-bowl, a lot of that is based on popularity, so whether he puts up great numbers or not, there's always a chance he makes it, even though he shouldn't. Look at Champ; I don't think he deserves to be in the Pro-bowl for his play this season, but he probably will be.
Anyways, SeeingRed, I do agree we got the much better QB, not just for that draft, but for several others. The most recent one who I think is at level or above Cutler's talent passing wise is Carson Palmer several drafts ago. :cheers:
Anyways, SeeingRed, I do agree we got the much better QB, not just for that draft, but for several others. The most recent one who I think is at level or above Cutler's talent passing wise is Carson Palmer several drafts ago. :cheers:
Carson Palmer and Drew Brees were the best QBs to come out of the draft recently until Cutler.
Lonestar
12-16-2007, 12:01 PM
Carson Palmer and Drew Brees were the best QBs to come out of the draft recently until Cutler.
How long did it take them to bee good ones..
Time to give Jay a break he is gonna make bad decisions from time to time.
The future is coming..
No one is really talking about Cutler.:confused:
Carson Palmer and Drew Brees were the best QBs to come out of the draft recently until Cutler.
People were questioning Drew Brees' arm strength when he came out. Youre right on with Palmer though. That was a guy tall in the pocket who could make any throw.
How long did it take them to bee good ones..
Time to give Jay a break he is gonna make bad decisions from time to time.
The future is coming..
Palmer sat his first year in the pros. The next year he had an average year with 18 tds and 18 ints. It should be noted that he was playing very well at the end of the year until his season was cut short by a knee injury.
Jay Cutler is doing a pretty good job maturing. The offense that you guys are running is not a very complex one, but it has more intricacies than one would originally think.
People were questioning Drew Brees' arm strength when he came out. Youre right on with Palmer though. That was a guy tall in the pocket who could make any throw.
I love watching Carson Palmer...by far the best QB to come out of USC in...hell I don't know...but he's awesome to watch.
TXBRONC
12-17-2007, 08:13 PM
I love watching Carson Palmer...by far the best QB to come out of USC in...hell I don't know...but he's awesome to watch.
You're right Palmer is the best quarterback to have come out of USC. Leinart might prove to be as good as him but it remains to be seen.
You're right Palmer is the best quarterback to have come out of USC. Leinart might prove to be as good as him but it remains to be seen.
Palmer is the prototypical NFL QB...right handed, tall, strong arm, smart, etc. I don't think Leinart will be successful in the NFL, but I could be wrong. The Cards have potential to be a great team with all of the talent they have, but they need to shore up their D a little bit (Dansby is friggin awesome, so is Adrian Wilson) and they've got a potentially awesome corner in Antrelle Rolle if he can ever learn how to tackle...so if the Cards can keep bringing in the right talent, it is possible for Leinart to be really successful in the NFL.
Without a doubt, Palmer is going to have a great career.
Watchthemiddle
12-18-2007, 05:52 PM
Palmer is the prototypical NFL QB...right handed, tall, strong arm, smart, etc. I don't think Leinart will be successful in the NFL, but I could be wrong. The Cards have potential to be a great team with all of the talent they have, but they need to shore up their D a little bit (Dansby is friggin awesome, so is Adrian Wilson) and they've got a potentially awesome corner in Antrelle Rolle if he can ever learn how to tackle...so if the Cards can keep bringing in the right talent, it is possible for Leinart to be really successful in the NFL.
Without a doubt, Palmer is going to have a great career.
As good as Palmer is, he could end up being the next Marino. Not stat wise, but talented and on a team that will never win the big one. Put up huge stats, but have a losing record or record around .500.
Let hope thats not CUtler as well. He has put up decent numbers, but can't seem to win games. In the end, its about win/lose records and rings. Not stats.
I don't see Cutler or Palmer (or Drew Brees) staying on teams that have no future. If we don't see a winning season with playoffs in Denver by the time Cutler's contract is up, don't count on him staying a Bronco. The same can be said for Palmer and Brees. QBs of that caliber win Super Bowls, period. Look how long it took Peyton Manning, but he got there and he won it. He could retire today and still be one of the top 5 QBs of all time.
I don't see Cutler or Palmer (or Drew Brees) staying on teams that have no future. If we don't see a winning season with playoffs in Denver by the time Cutler's contract is up, don't count on him staying a Bronco. The same can be said for Palmer and Brees. QBs of that caliber win Super Bowls, period. Look how long it took Peyton Manning, but he got there and he won it. He could retire today and still be one of the top 5 QBs of all time.
After the 7th game or so on the Bengals MB there was a thread started called "Carson Palmer, we would like to apologize for the defense that you have to play with.........and we apologize for Chris Henry:mad:" The guy is having an off year but most of his poor plays comes from him having to force everything. He has no running game to speak of, a god awful defense, faces teams that basically double TJ and CJ, and to top it off CJ and TJ are both thirty years old now. The window of opportunity is closing for the Bengals, and I feel bad for Palmer because he is signed to the bengals for quite a long time because of the extension he got in 05.
After the 7th game or so on the Bengals MB there was a thread started called "Carson Palmer, we would like to apologize for the defense that you have to play with.........and we apologize for Chris Henry:mad:" The guy is having an off year but most of his poor plays comes from him having to force everything. He has no running game to speak of, a god awful defense, faces teams that basically double TJ and CJ, and to top it off CJ and TJ are both thirty years old now. The window of opportunity is closing for the Bengals, and I feel bad for Palmer because he is signed to the bengals for quite a long time because of the extension he got in 05.
The window isn't closing on the Bengals. It has to open first. They've got some personnel issues on their team that is preventing them from really blossoming. It'll come though. Their division is going to be tough for quite some time, so if the Bungholes plan on contending at all, they need to get their act together lickety split.
The window isn't closing on the Bengals. It has to open first. They've got some personnel issues on their team that is preventing them from really blossoming. It'll come though. Their division is going to be tough for quite some time, so if the Bungholes plan on contending at all, they need to get their act together lickety split.
It was open in 05. It was open in 06 as well SR. If the Bengals beat the Broncos last year that would have clinched them a playoff spot of some sort. If they had beaten the Steelers the second time around everything else happened perfectly for them to make it in the playoffs by a miracle. This year they had a fresh start and they failed again. They changed the culture of losing and then they just let it go. Marvin Lewis needs to be fired, he has made enough poor decisions in his tenure as Head Coach and only made the playoffs once. God Bless him though, and if the does get to keep his job I will not be too upset. You can make a case that a lot of things happened that where out of his control. I don't know, I will always be a Marvin Lewis guy, he embodies a lot of what I like in human beings, let alone Head Coaches.
Marv Lewis is a great guy. I'd be sad to see him fired. I dunno.
Marv Lewis is a great guy. I'd be sad to see him fired. I dunno.
The guy just pours his heart and soul into the community. He is a real humble person who is rigid with the media but very easy going with the public. I think he deserves one more year. I mean, who can win while losing over half their starters two years in a row?
The guy just pours his heart and soul into the community. He is a real humble person who is rigid with the media but very easy going with the public. I think he deserves one more year. I mean, who can win while half of the starting roster is in jail?
Fixed. ;):D
Fixed. ;):D
You meant in court, the Bengal players all have GREAT Lawyers!;)
You meant in court, the Bengal players all have GREAT Lawyers!;)
Apparently THC does too. :rolleyes:
Defense lawyers are some of the biggest scum on Earth. :mad:
Apparently THC does too. :rolleyes:
Defense lawyers are some of the biggest scum on Earth. :mad:
You think so? I dunno, sometimes you gotta do your job right?
Ever seen "The Devil's Advocate". That's what happens to defense attorneys. They are all fathered by Satan.
Ever seen "The Devil's Advocate". That's what happens to defense attorneys. They are all fathered by Satan.
Thanks SR, now I have to go out and rent ANOTHER movie now!;)
Thanks SR, now I have to go out and rent ANOTHER movie now!;)
That movie is a CLASSIC...Al Pacino, Keanu Reeves, Charlize Theron, Connie Neilson...
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