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NightTrainLayne
09-24-2009, 11:33 AM
Kiszla: Dumervil a lesson for Marshall
By Mark Kiszla
The Denver Post
Posted: 09/24/2009 01:00:00 AM MDT
Updated: 09/24/2009 02:59:05 AM MDT


Denver Broncos


They are twin sons of different destinies, rich 25-year-old athletes who share a locker room, a football history and ambition.

Denver linebacker Elvis Dumervil is putting a hurt on the NFL. The game has become a pain for teammate Brandon Marshall.

We should not be surprised.

Dr. Doom and B-Marsh are close friends headed in opposite directions, one rocketing toward stardom, the other stuck in a downward spiral.

In the Not For Long, the only constant is change.

Dumervil adapted and thrived.

Marshall pouted and withered.

So fans at the stadium now stand and shower new nicknames of affection on Dumervil as he sacks the quarterback, while those same Broncomaniacs scream at the team bench, "Hey, Brandon, wake up!" and call Marshall words not fit for print in a family newspaper.

"All I can do is my job. Me being out there, not being out there as much as I used to be, is something I have to get used to, but it's the National Football League. Things change," Marshall said Wednesday. He made 104 receptions and the Pro Bowl a year ago, but has caught little but grief, and made himself nonessential to a 2-0 team this season.

Then Marshall said something that better be the 100 percent truth, if he ever wants a raise from a $2.2 million salary that has caused him angst: "I've learned from trying to fight the system."

Know who is the most underpaid Bronco? It is the man who can often be seen sitting alongside Marshall during the lunch hour in the dressing room: Dumervil.

B-Marsh and Dr. Doom both entered the league in 2006, taken seven selections apart in the fourth round by the Broncos.

Dumervil plays with a chip on the shoulder that seems naturally attached to a 5-foot-11 man who has long heard he was too small to be a big hit in football.

Although the talent of Marshall towers above a league in which he has few peers, his personality swings between sweet charmer and petulant malcontent, a guy never quite comfortable in his own skin and reluctant to trust anyone.

So is there any wonder their destinies have taken decidedly different routes?

After three years in the NFL that saw Dumervil establish himself as clearly the most reliable pass-rusher on a defense frighteningly short of playmakers, the former defensive end entered this season underpaid at $530,000 and dealing with the challenges of adapting to a new coach, a new system and, most daunting, a new position he had never played a minute in his life.

If anybody on the Broncos had the right to be ticked, it was Dumervil. So don't come whining to me about the team not showing Marshall the proper respect. Change is hard for us all.

Instead of showing up for practice in his pajamas, Dr. Doom laced his cleats a little tighter and dug in for the challenge.

"It has been tough, man," Dumervil said after recording four sacks against Cleveland. He admitted to times of self-doubt about making the transition to linebacker.

But here's the thing: Dumervil trusted the coaching staff to help him. More important, he believed in his ability to evolve.

Marshall seems stuck in a past where Mike Shanahan still designs plays and Jay Cutler heaves the football. Guess what. That time is not coming back.

And that's not good, because we are slowly figuring out Josh McDaniels' blunt honesty when the new coach says: "I don't think we are one of those teams that you could categorize as, 'We do what we do.' "

The new Broncos change on the fly and rewrite the playbook weekly. If Shanahan was all about the script, then McDaniels' signature is improvisation.

"For the player, it requires tremendous work, a lot of time studying and the ability to adapt," McDaniels said.

The final grades certainly are not in, but want a progress report regarding the evolution seen in two of Denver's best players under age 30?

Dumervil: A+.

Marshall: D-.

Now here are two questions — one pure football and one simple economics — for the rest of the class:

Which player is more valuable in a league where nothing is certain except change?

Who deserves a raise more, B-Marsh or Dr. Doom?

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13406733

Every once in a while Kizla hits one on the head. In all the crying about Marshall being short-changed with only $2.2 million this season, look at Doom and his paltry $560,000. And compare the effort and attitude. Heck. . ..Just imagine asking Marshall to play Tight-end. . .

Tned
09-24-2009, 11:46 AM
I'm always a bit surprised when a journalist writes like a fan. IMO, journalists should subscribe to that indifferent observer theory, and write without their opinion coming through so clearly.


Then Marshall said something that better be the 100 percent truth, if he ever wants a raise from a $2.2 million salary that has caused him angst: "I've learned from trying to fight the system."

...

If anybody on the Broncos had the right to be ticked, it was Dumervil. So don't come whining to me about the team not showing Marshall the proper respect. Change is hard for us all.

...

But here's the thing: Dumervil trusted the coaching staff to help him. More important, he believed in his ability to evolve.

Marshall seems stuck in a past where Mike Shanahan still designs plays and Jay Cutler heaves the football. Guess what. That time is not coming back.

Anyway, as to the question. Deserve is a loaded word. Neither of them 'deserve' a raise, as they signed a contract and that determines their current salary.

As to which player is more important to the team, and more valuable in terms of being signed as a FA, a lot depends on whether can repeat his performance from last week multiple times this season (no necessarily 4 sacks, but the ability to get consistant pressure, especially in key situations).

In terms of who has proven over the last three years to be among the elite at their position, it is clearly Marshall. Most 'experts' will talk about Marshall being one of the top 5 WR's in the NFL, but nobody is calling Dumervil a top 5 DE or OLB in this league. He will have to have a dominant year to reach that status, and possibly duplicate it next year before anyone considered him 'one of the best' in the league.

So, that leaves us with off field issues, which is very subjective and cloudies the waters.

In an ideal world, the Broncos would resign both players to long term contracts, with Marshall most likely getting the 'bigger' contract. However, regardless of what happens with Marshall, I hope the Broncos lock Dumervil up, but when looked at with out the fan's glasses (something the author didn't do), you can't currently put Marshall and Dumervil in the same class in terms of where they rank in their respective positions.

NightTrainLayne
09-24-2009, 11:56 AM
I'm always a bit surprised when a journalist writes like a fan. IMO, journalists should subscribe to that indifferent observer theory, and write without their opinion coming through so clearly.



Anyway, as to the question. Deserve is a loaded word. Neither of them 'deserve' a raise, as they signed a contract and that determines their current salary.

As to which player is more important to the team, and more valuable in terms of being signed as a FA, a lot depends on whether can repeat his performance from last week multiple times this season (no necessarily 4 sacks, but the ability to get consistant pressure, especially in key situations).

In terms of who has proven over the last three years to be among the elite at their position, it is clearly Marshall. Most 'experts' will talk about Marshall being one of the top 5 WR's in the NFL, but nobody is calling Dumervil a top 5 DE or OLB in this league. He will have to have a dominant year to reach that status, and possibly duplicate it next year before anyone considered him 'one of the best' in the league.

So, that leaves us with off field issues, which is very subjective and cloudies the waters.

In an ideal world, the Broncos would resign both players to long term contracts, with Marshall most likely getting the 'bigger' contract. However, regardless of what happens with Marshall, I hope the Broncos lock Dumervil up, but when looked at with out the fan's glasses (something the author didn't do), you can't currently put Marshall and Dumervil in the same class in terms of where they rank in their respective positions.

Obviously, if both are able to repeat their good performances on a weekly basis, Marshall will probably command more than Dumervil.

As you said, deserve is a loaded word, but I certainly am a lot happier with Doom and his work ethic, and attitude, and coachability than I am with Marshall at this point. Hopefully Marshall turns it around and we re-sign both of them to big pay-days.

But to anyone that wants to argue (not that you have Tned), that Marshall "deserves" a new contract, then how much more does Dumervil assuming these first two weeks haven't been a fluke? Doom has done everything a new coaching staff has asked, and worked his tail off to learn a position that he's never played in his entire life. Marshall can't even make his way to OTA's to learn a new play-book.

So. . . to the extent that anyone wants to argue that Marshall "deserves" a raise, I would argue that Dumervil deserves it more.

Day1BroncoFan
09-24-2009, 12:05 PM
If the question is "Which of these two has more value right now", the clear answer is Dr. Doom.

rationalfan
09-24-2009, 12:07 PM
I'm always a bit surprised when a journalist writes like a fan. IMO, journalists should subscribe to that indifferent observer theory, and write without their opinion coming through so clearly.


i'm always a bit surprised when people who claim to read sports sections of newspapers/web sites can't figure out the difference between a reporter and a columnist. again, reporters are paid to write objective stories. columnists are paid to write opinionated stories. it's that simple.

it's also worthwhile to consider this idea:
http://books.google.com/books?id=4jzEnlEE5l8C&pg=PA202&lpg=PA202&dq=klosterman+sports+reporters+hate+sports&source=bl&ots=hdDh4p4M8v&sig=cQb8ldJYDm39qaDWossrktiezAM&hl=en&ei=Fqe7StOFBM_dlAeU0I2iDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

weazel
09-24-2009, 12:13 PM
i'm always a bit surprised when people who claim to read sports sections of newspapers/web sites can't figure out the difference between a reporter and a columnist. again, reporters are paid to write objective stories. columnists are paid to write opinionated stories. it's that simple.

it's also worthwhile to consider this idea:
http://books.google.com/books?id=4jzEnlEE5l8C&pg=PA202&lpg=PA202&dq=klosterman+sports+reporters+hate+sports&source=bl&ots=hdDh4p4M8v&sig=cQb8ldJYDm39qaDWossrktiezAM&hl=en&ei=Fqe7StOFBM_dlAeU0I2iDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

uh oh

Tned
09-24-2009, 12:14 PM
Obviously, if both are able to repeat their good performances on a weekly basis, Marshall will probably command more than Dumervil.

As you said, deserve is a loaded word, but I certainly am a lot happier with Doom and his work ethic, and attitude, and coachability than I am with Marshall at this point. Hopefully Marshall turns it around and we re-sign both of them to big pay-days.

But to anyone that wants to argue (not that you have Tned), that Marshall "deserves" a new contract, then how much more does Dumervil assuming these first two weeks haven't been a fluke? Doom has done everything a new coaching staff has asked, and worked his tail off to learn a position that he's never played in his entire life. Marshall can't even make his way to OTA's to learn a new play-book.

So. . . to the extent that anyone wants to argue that Marshall "deserves" a raise, I would argue that Dumervil deserves it more.

I agree with you about Dumervil and I sat on my couch on Sunday thinking, "man, I hope he isn't a UFA next season", because I didn't know (still haven't looked it up) what Doom's contract status is.

From a total package, on field - off field, then I think Dumervil is the more important player to resign, as there appears to be little risk other than possibly inconsistant play (in terms of dominance, not effort).

From an on the field, what impact does he have for his unit, I think it's clear that Marshall (today, might be different 6 games from now) still has a bigger impact on his unit. When Marshall was out in the 2nd quarter, the passing game sputtered and did nothing - Gaffney was overmatched in the endzone attempt. When Royal got hurt/needed the IV, and Marshall came back in after half time, he was featured both in the run and pass game. He both makes big plays, and allows other offensive players to make big plays, because he commands so much of the defenses attention.

Doom doesn't do that yet. In time he might, which might slow his production down, but free up other backers or ends to make big plays.

So, again, the deserve is such a hard word. Currently, IMO, Marshall brings more talent and benefit to his unit, and more importantly there is a much bigger drop off when he isn't in the game, then when Doom is not in the game. As Doom continues to learn that OLB spot, that balance may switch.

As always, time will tell.

Ravage!!!
09-24-2009, 12:19 PM
as Tned pointed out.... who has been the most productive player in the NFL over the last 3 years... Marshall or Doom??? Marshall by FARRRRRR and away. Doom, although had some good games in the past, has only REALLY started to look excellent this season, and that has been in two games against the Bengals and Cleveland.

Right now, if you are going to give a player a raise based on value to THIS team or value to the NFL, I belive its still marshall either way. Marshall still has more value than Doom... despite his childish behavior this offseason.

Day1BroncoFan
09-24-2009, 12:23 PM
We don't even know if Marshall wants to be on this team or if he's going to step up and play yet.

We know Doom is a team player and is in fact stepping his game up yet people want to pay Marshall more instead of Dumervil.

nevcraw
09-24-2009, 12:56 PM
The shanhan cutler reference was aimed for no other reason than to get fans to react in the polarizing manner they have for the last 8 months.. pretty silly to keep it up..

marshall doesnt care who the coach or QB is.. he wants to get paid...

NightTrainLayne
09-24-2009, 01:39 PM
I agree with you about Dumervil and I sat on my couch on Sunday thinking, "man, I hope he isn't a UFA next season", because I didn't know (still haven't looked it up) what Doom's contract status is.

From a total package, on field - off field, then I think Dumervil is the more important player to resign, as there appears to be little risk other than possibly inconsistant play (in terms of dominance, not effort).

From an on the field, what impact does he have for his unit, I think it's clear that Marshall (today, might be different 6 games from now) still has a bigger impact on his unit. When Marshall was out in the 2nd quarter, the passing game sputtered and did nothing - Gaffney was overmatched in the endzone attempt. When Royal got hurt/needed the IV, and Marshall came back in after half time, he was featured both in the run and pass game. He both makes big plays, and allows other offensive players to make big plays, because he commands so much of the defenses attention.

Doom doesn't do that yet. In time he might, which might slow his production down, but free up other backers or ends to make big plays.

So, again, the deserve is such a hard word. Currently, IMO, Marshall brings more talent and benefit to his unit, and more importantly there is a much bigger drop off when he isn't in the game, then when Doom is not in the game. As Doom continues to learn that OLB spot, that balance may switch.

As always, time will tell.

I don't disagree with you at all. I've tried twice and I haven't communicated very well what my take on the article is. So, let me try again.

This isn't about tearing down Marshall, or saying that Dumervil deserves more (edit: More than Marshall). It's just about recognizing how well Dumervil has played, and improved, and at a bargain-basement price when compared to Marshall who has made a lot of noise about how he is under-paid.

Lonestar
09-24-2009, 01:41 PM
The shanhan cutler reference was aimed for no other reason than to get fans to react in the polarizing manner they have for the last 8 months.. pretty silly to keep it up..

marshall doesnt care who the coach or QB is.. he wants to get paid...


and in order to get this he has to show he wants to be paid on the field, in the team meetings, off the field and in practices..

so far no one can say they have seen him dominate like he used to..

powderaddict
09-24-2009, 01:57 PM
Give Dumervil a raise, slap a 1st and 3rd as the tender on Marshall, and call it a day.

Northman
09-24-2009, 02:00 PM
As you said, deserve is a loaded word, but I certainly am a lot happier with Doom and his work ethic, and attitude, and coachability than I am with Marshall at this point. Hopefully Marshall turns it around and we re-sign both of them to big pay-days.



Thats basically how i am. I would give a raise to those who i felt truly deserved it. Obviously i would LOVE for Marshall to take his head out of his ass and get back to doing what he does best. But, thus far i would give the nod to Doom but its still early in the game but if Doom can show he can do this on a regular basis hell yea i would give him a raise in a heartbeat. The last 2 years Marshall has done a lot of jabbering about how he is learning from his mistakes but obviously not learning fast enough.

Lonestar
09-24-2009, 02:03 PM
Thats basically how i am. I would give a raise to those who i felt truly deserved it. Obviously i would LOVE for Marshall to take his head out of his ass and get back to doing what he does best. But, thus far i would give the nod to Doom but its still early in the game but if Doom can show he can do this on a regular basis hell yea i would give him a raise in a heartbeat. The last 2 years Marshall has done a lot of jabbering about how he is learning from his mistakes but obviously not learning fast enough.

talk is cheap, he needs to grow some huevos and walk the walk..

Tned
09-24-2009, 03:15 PM
Thats basically how i am. I would give a raise to those who i felt truly deserved it. Obviously i would LOVE for Marshall to take his head out of his ass and get back to doing what he does best. But, thus far i would give the nod to Doom but its still early in the game but if Doom can show he can do this on a regular basis hell yea i would give him a raise in a heartbeat. The last 2 years Marshall has done a lot of jabbering about how he is learning from his mistakes but obviously not learning fast enough.

Those are off field mistakes, not on field. Marshall certainly hasn't made anymore on-field mistakes than most other players, and arguably less than most on the Broncos the last two years.

FanInAZ
09-24-2009, 05:59 PM
I inform Marshall that we 1st have to resign Doom before we can him because Doom has always put the team 1st.

Lonestar
09-24-2009, 06:09 PM
Those are off field mistakes, not on field. Marshall certainly hasn't made anymore on-field mistakes than most other players, and arguably less than most on the Broncos the last two years.


well I guess for the coaching team to actually judge him then it is hard since he has not been on the field much till the regular season started .. IIRC it was BM that caused all that NON on the field stuff. and when he was on the field was it a punt or playing that got everyone attention..

I;m not sure why you feel the need to excuse this morons attitude and behavior with his exploits of the past two years..

if he would have kept his head out of his butt the odds are he would have had a new contract already..

I think you forget he is a speeding ticket away from a 2-8 week suspension..

and he has NO ONE but himself to blame..

Bronco9798
09-24-2009, 06:18 PM
If they were both free agents today, Being a skill position, Marshall would get a bigger contract then Doom. May not seem right, but I'm sure he would. Even with his production, Doom would only fit into a few different teams and their schemes. Marshall is talented enough to replace almost anyone on another team even with his baggage.

If it came down to the Broncos only though, the Broncos need Doom more than they need Marshall right now. But, Marshall would be a huge asset to this team if he had a normal brain and played football with his skills and talent.

Tned
09-24-2009, 06:29 PM
well I guess for the coaching team to actually judge him then it is hard since he has not been on the field much till the regular season started .. IIRC it was BM that caused all that NON on the field stuff. and when he was on the field was it a punt or playing that got everyone attention..

I;m not sure why you feel the need to excuse this morons attitude and behavior with his exploits of the past two years..

if he would have kept his head out of his butt the odds are he would have had a new contract already..

I think you forget he is a speeding ticket away from a 2-8 week suspension..

and he has NO ONE but himself to blame..

I try, not always successfully, to go through life not judging others. I don't assume Marshall is a moron, nor feel the need to call him or other people such names. I don't assume that 'everything' that happened in the offseason was his fault, because we simply don't know all the facts.

As a fan, what I look at is whether the team is better when Marshall is on the field, and without a doubt they are better with Marshall on the field.

Requiem / The Dagda
09-24-2009, 06:33 PM
I think they both deserve a raise, but I think that if Elvis can keep playing at this level -- having a player like him in this defense would mean a lot more when we clearly have several receivers capable of getting balls in this offense. In a perfect world, we could have both.

gregbroncs
09-24-2009, 07:40 PM
I don't think most people or the article are saying that Doom deserves more than Marshall. What it is saying is that out of the 2 players 1 is showing that he wants and deserves more than he is currently making and the other is not. Marshall is clearly worth more money than Doom, I don't even see that as arguable. However Doom is showing that he deserves more than he is currently making. And so far this year and because of off-field issues in the past Marshall is showing that giving him a long term deal for more money is a very large risk.

getlynched47
09-24-2009, 08:15 PM
Obviously Brandon Marshall.

I like Dumervil, but people are overhyping him way way way way too much after his 4 sack game. I even read something about Bill Williamson saying that Dumervil was making a considerate push for NFL defensive MVP and a Pro Bowl birth. Jeez.

I like Dumervil, I hope we lock him up. I would want us to lock him up NOW before he actually puts up amazing stats and forces a huge contract from us after the season because of his play.

BTW, 3 of his 4 sacks were when he was lined up at defensive end vs. John Saint Claire, so he isn't an outer linebacker prodigy. yet.

:beer:

Kaylore
09-24-2009, 08:30 PM
I need to see Dumervil do some damage against some better linemen. His historically made most of his sacks in bunches against poor linemen. Until then I wouldn't mind extending him, but I don't think we need to go overboard in what we offer him. If he starts consistently doing his thing against better linemen then we'll re-evaluate things.

D1g1tal j1m
09-24-2009, 11:39 PM
Doom is now in a position that better take advantages of his skill sets. He was an undersized DE and now he is a pass-rushing OLB that will get to the QB.

I am amazed at his size that he was so productive as a DE. Credit to him for having a nonstop motor and drive to get to the QB.

I would have to say that we must sign Doom first (as he fits what we want in a player on and off the field). Marshall, for all his physical talents has put us in difficult spots off the field (and that cannot be disregarded). We will offer Marshall a contract, but it will be incentive laden and if he doesn't take it then maybe it will be time to move on without him.

TXBRONC
09-25-2009, 08:53 AM
I need to see Dumervil do some damage against some better linemen. His historically made most of his sacks in bunches against poor linemen. Until then I wouldn't mind extending him, but I don't think we need to go overboard in what we offer him. If he starts consistently doing his thing against better linemen then we'll re-evaluate things.

He generally wont be going up against our opponents best tackle sense he plays LOLB. Nevertheless if he's more consistent about getting pressures and sacks that should work in his favor. One thing that he has been very consistent about through his first three season is being around the ball when it comes to fumbles.

NightTrainLayne
09-25-2009, 12:31 PM
He generally wont be going up against our opponents best tackle sense he plays LOLB. Nevertheless if he's more consistent about getting pressures and sacks that should work in his favor. One thing that he has been very consistent about through his first three season is being around the ball when it comes to fumbles.

I actually thought that he generally does line up on the right side of the defense, but last week they did move him over to the left side a bunch, because their game-plan was to attack the Browns right-side because they felt it was weak. .. they were right.

Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I'm pretty sure that Dumervil's "normal" spot is on the right side of the defense, but this staff has shown that they'll pretty much move him and others wherever they feel they will have the most impact depending on who the opponent is.

Dr Velcro
09-25-2009, 12:38 PM
I think the player who produces the most with the least amount of resistance and best attitude while on the job deserves a raise.

As one would do with any job.

Dume...

Hands down.

LoyalSoldier
09-25-2009, 12:41 PM
Obviously Brandon Marshall.

I like Dumervil, but people are overhyping him way way way way too much after his 4 sack game. I even read something about Bill Williamson saying that Dumervil was making a considerate push for NFL defensive MVP and a Pro Bowl birth. Jeez.

I like Dumervil, I hope we lock him up. I would want us to lock him up NOW before he actually puts up amazing stats and forces a huge contract from us after the season because of his play.

BTW, 3 of his 4 sacks were when he was lined up at defensive end vs. John Saint Claire, so he isn't an outer linebacker prodigy. yet.

:beer:

Actually in the 3-4 that is a common blitz formation. Usually one LB is up at the line on any given play.

TXBRONC
09-25-2009, 12:44 PM
I actually thought that he generally does line up on the right side of the defense, but last week they did move him over to the left side a bunch, because their game-plan was to attack the Browns right-side because they felt it was weak. .. they were right.

Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I'm pretty sure that Dumervil's "normal" spot is on the right side of the defense, but this staff has shown that they'll pretty much move him and others wherever they feel they will have the most impact depending on who the opponent is.

All four Dumervils sacks came from the left side of the defense. I guess the best way to find out is to look at how he's listed on the depth chart.

Dr Velcro
09-25-2009, 12:48 PM
Being somebody who has been following Elvis since college (practices and games, in person)...

Elvis can be put just about anywhere in the defense and he'll make it work for him.

No diva attitude.

He'll show up, he'll work & he'll produce.

He's a professional.

He deserves a raise.

I'd like for Rod Smith to walk up and bitch slap Marshall while wearing his rings.
He needs to get his head straight & appreciate where he is.

SmilinAssasSin27
09-25-2009, 01:31 PM
as Tned pointed out.... who has been the most productive player in the NFL over the last 3 years... Marshall or Doom??? Marshall by FARRRRRR and away. Doom, although had some good games in the past, has only REALLY started to look excellent this season, and that has been in two games against the Bengals and Cleveland.

Right now, if you are going to give a player a raise based on value to THIS team or value to the NFL, I belive its still marshall either way. Marshall still has more value than Doom... despite his childish behavior this offseason.

Doom has as many sacks as Mario Williams since they both entered the league...

...and defense wins championships.

T.K.O.
09-25-2009, 01:40 PM
Doom has as many sacks as Mario Williams since they both entered the league...

...and defense wins championships.

and....DOOM was at practice yesterday,while brandon was out of the afternoon session with "an illness".
i dont know whats up with marshall,he has showed alot of heart for brief moments....then ?
i think it might really be bothering him that he isnt the main focus of the recieving game(spread offense)or in the spotlight like chad ochostinko and t.o.
its like that glove trick he had planned last year when stokes shut him down,he really needs alot of attention to be happy

Tned-Mobile
09-25-2009, 01:46 PM
and....DOOM was at practice yesterday,while brandon was out of the afternoon session with "an illness".
i dont know whats up with marshall,he has showed alot of heart for brief moments....then ?
i think it might really be bothering him that he isnt the main focus of the recieving game(spread offense)or in the spotlight like chad ochostinko and t.o.
its like that glove trick he had planned last year when stokes shut him down,he really needs alot of attention to be happy

or, maybe has a cold like reported and the staff didn't want the rest of the team coming down with it before sundays game.

Denver Native (Carol)
09-25-2009, 01:49 PM
and....DOOM was at practice yesterday,while brandon was out of the afternoon session with "an illness".
i dont know whats up with marshall,he has showed alot of heart for brief moments....then ?
i think it might really be bothering him that he isnt the main focus of the recieving game(spread offense)or in the spotlight like chad ochostinko and t.o.
its like that glove trick he had planned last year when stokes shut him down,he really needs alot of attention to be happy

In Brandon's defense, you need to listen to when he talked with the media on Wednesday - you definitely could tell he was sick, and we have had very cold weather here.

T.K.O.
09-25-2009, 02:12 PM
ok i wont dock his pay this week then.....;)
i was speaking more to his whole attitude. i watch him and he looks like he really cares on a few plays then... i dont know i guess i should reserve judgement for a few weeks and see if he starts producing more.
i realize this offense is not going to give him the kind of "stats" were used to but i want to see him rip through some defenders like his job depended on it and play like he knows his team is counting on him !
i dont care if he gets 3 catches a game as long as he plays with heart !
and i'm not sure ive seen that yet :salute:

Dr Velcro
09-25-2009, 02:16 PM
ok i wont dock his pay this week then.....;)
i was speaking more to his whole attitude. i watch him and he looks like he really cares on a few plays then... i dont know i guess i should reserve judgement for a few weeks and see if he starts producing more.
i realize this offense is not going to give him the kind of "stats" were used to but i want to see him rip through some defenders like his job depended on it and play like he knows his team is counting on him !
i dont care if he gets 3 catches a game as long as he plays with heart !
and i'm not sure ive seen that yet :salute:

TKO-
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/c/cb/Exploitablekanye.gif
Imma let you finish....But Terrell Owens is the biggest diva of ALL TIME!

Of ALL TIME!

SmilinAssasSin27
09-25-2009, 02:33 PM
ok i wont dock his pay this week then.....;)
i was speaking more to his whole attitude. i watch him and he looks like he really cares on a few plays then... i dont know i guess i should reserve judgement for a few weeks and see if he starts producing more.
i realize this offense is not going to give him the kind of "stats" were used to but i want to see him rip through some defenders like his job depended on it and play like he knows his team is counting on him !
i dont care if he gets 3 catches a game as long as he plays with heart !
and i'm not sure ive seen that yet :salute:

The stats are there if he wants em. Orton is second in completions over 25 yards. BMarsh could be the beneficiary of that. he chooses not to be. He can go.

T.K.O.
09-25-2009, 02:40 PM
The stats are there if he wants em. Orton is second in completions over 25 yards. BMarsh could be the beneficiary of that. he chooses not to be. He can go.

even mcD admits they wont push the ball to one player or another(which is a 180 from what marshall was getting the past 2 years,so the only way marshall will get his 1000 yds is gonna be making every catch count !



did you guys know.... Orton has the highest QB rating in the NFL in the 4th Quarter (152.1)

TXBRONC
09-25-2009, 05:04 PM
ok i wont dock his pay this week then.....;)
i was speaking more to his whole attitude. i watch him and he looks like he really cares on a few plays then... i dont know i guess i should reserve judgement for a few weeks and see if he starts producing more.
i realize this offense is not going to give him the kind of "stats" were used to but i want to see him rip through some defenders like his job depended on it and play like he knows his team is counting on him !
i dont care if he gets 3 catches a game as long as he plays with heart !
and i'm not sure ive seen that yet :salute:

I don't what you're seeing but I seeing who is working every bit hard as any of his cohorts in receiving corp. Did you miss his reverse you know the play that gained something like 14 yards.

Lonestar
09-26-2009, 11:55 AM
Boy did whoever tagged him Baby TO have it nailed. We can be succesful without him.

However it would be easier IF he gives as much into playing every play as say eddie.
Either he does not really know the playbook and his responsibilities within it or he is dogging it and one reverse does not make up for the rest of his medicore time on the field.

gregbroncs
09-26-2009, 04:21 PM
I don't what you're seeing but I seeing who is working every bit hard as any of his cohorts in receiving corp. Did you miss his reverse you know the play that gained something like 14 yards.playing hard when the play is called for you is one thing. Playing hard when it's not is another thing entirely. I don't know if Marshall is working hard on those plays or not but using a play when he got the ball as proof is not going to cut it.

Tned
09-26-2009, 04:43 PM
I don't what you're seeing but I seeing who is working every bit hard as any of his cohorts in receiving corp. Did you miss his reverse you know the play that gained something like 14 yards.

I thought it was like a 25 yard gain, but maybe it was only 14.


Boy did whoever tagged him Baby TO have it nailed. We can be succesful without him.

However it would be easier IF he gives as much into playing every play as say eddie.
Either he does not really know the playbook and his responsibilities within it or he is dogging it and one reverse does not make up for the rest of his medicore time on the field.

What plays is he 'dogging' it on?

TXBRONC
09-26-2009, 05:18 PM
playing hard when the play is called for you is one thing. Playing hard when it's not is another thing entirely. I don't know if Marshall is working hard on those plays or not but using a play when he got the ball as proof is not going to cut it.

I guess you missed him blocking as well. When ball isn't in his hand the camera isn't going to be on him so how do you know he's not working hard?

TXBRONC
09-26-2009, 05:23 PM
I thought it was like a 25 yard gain, but maybe it was only 14.



What plays is he 'dogging' it on?

The stats from the game show one rush for 14 yards.

pnbronco
09-26-2009, 10:31 PM
After three years in the NFL that saw Dumervil establish himself as clearly the most reliable pass-rusher on a defense frighteningly short of playmakers, the former defensive end entered this season underpaid at $530,000 and dealing with the challenges of adapting to a new coach, a new system and, most daunting, a new position he had never played a minute in his life.


This was the part of the article that impressed me. I didn't realize that Doom had never played this position. I posted awhile back that Doom had said on the radio that he's had to learn a new playbook every year since he became a pro, he would like just once to come in and not have to start from scratch. I also remember that Foxworth saying some time on the radio that if Doom had been taller that he would have been picked sooner in the draft and made more money to begin with. I was actually surprised at his wage.

What I took from the article is that Doom has earned the right to receive a raise because of his work ethics and production thus far. We all know that Marshall has unbelievable talent but there always seems to be a "but" when talking about him and there lies the problem IMO.

Dreadnought
09-26-2009, 10:31 PM
I guess you missed him blocking as well. When ball isn't in his hand the camera isn't going to be on him so how do you know he's not working hard?

Marshall has always been an excellent downfield blocker, and I'd never accuse him of dogging it on the field. He drops some balls, but my main issues with him are not on the field. I do go back to that point Jr raised where he is a speeding ticket away from a good long suspension. As for his cold? i'd like to think its legit, probably even is legit, but his overall off field track record is now so bad that you start wondering.

I love Dumervil. Whatever the case may be with Marshall Dumervil need to get paid. And as for feasting on second rate tackles/ I'll take it. there's a good number of second rate tackles in the NFL and other DE's?OLB's don'teat them up like Elvis does.

broncohead
09-26-2009, 10:43 PM
Dume didn't really show up last season and Marshall did. I don't think Marshall deserves a raise but I think taking this season to evaluate players in this new scheme is the best way to go. If Dume excels (which looks like he is but need more then 2 games) give him a raise. The question isn't if Marshall can produce it's if Marshall can stay out of trouble and if Marshall wants to be here. It really isn't to complicated.

honz
09-26-2009, 10:47 PM
Dume didn't really show up last season and Marshall did. I don't think Marshall deserves a raise but I think taking this season to evaluate players in this new scheme is the best way to go. If Dume excels (which looks like he is but need more then 2 games) give him a raise. The question isn't if Marshall can produce it's if Marshall can stay out of trouble and if Marshall wants to be here. It really isn't to complicated.

Agreed. Doom had one great game. He was nowhere to be found last year. Yeah, our scheme sucked last year, but rushing the QB is rushing the QB. I love both Doom and Marshall and I hope that both go on to have great seasons and they end up being Broncos for many years to come.

LoyalSoldier
09-26-2009, 11:00 PM
Agreed. Doom had one great game. He was nowhere to be found last year. Yeah, our scheme sucked last year, but rushing the QB is rushing the QB. I love both Doom and Marshall and I hope that both go on to have great seasons and they end up being Broncos for many years to come.

Not exactly. A lot more goes into rushing the QB than meets the eye.

gregbroncs
09-27-2009, 09:31 AM
I guess you missed him blocking as well. When ball isn't in his hand the camera isn't going to be on him so how do you know he's not working hard?
Why would you assume that. I simply pointed out that using an example of him getting the ball to show he's playing hard is not a good example.

I didn't miss him holding down the field though. J/K

I have no idea if Marshall is playing hard on every play but just because he played hard when he had the ball does not show that either.

Tned-Mobile
09-27-2009, 10:17 AM
Why would you assume that. I simply pointed out that using an example of him getting the ball to show he's playing hard is not a good example.

I didn't miss him holding down the field though. J/K

I have no idea if Marshall is playing hard on every play but just because he played hard when he had the ball does not show that either.

This is very true, just like the people that are claiming that Marshall is "dogging it" or taking plays off, don't actually know that, but instead are basically just stating (or making up if you will) 'facts' that they think will further their cause of tearing Marshall down.

Now, why they feel it is necessary to tear down our most talented WR, rather than waiting for him to do what they 'claim' is inevitable, I will never understand.

Lonestar
09-27-2009, 10:45 AM
Well BM may not be dogging it.

But so far he has yet to perform like he used to.

I guess for the most you can blame it on everything but him and his less than spectacular off season (including everthing thing between the last game of 2008 and the start of regular 09) or just realize he maybe/is dogging it.

That or the scheme and HC sucks.

I suspect him being primary WR or decoy is being determined by his play. And practice habits that caoches see and we do not.


You can choose.

I have.

Tned-Mobile
09-27-2009, 10:54 AM
Well BM may not be dogging it.

But so far he has yet to perform like he used to.

I guess for the most you can blame it on everything but him and his less than spectacular off season (including everthing thing between the last game of 2008 and the start of regular 09) or just realize he is dogging it.

That or the scheme and HC sucks.

You can choose.

I have.

Why must it always be black or white, all or nothing with some of you guys.

Ok, lets get this straight, the entire passing game has struggled, with drops galore.

Yet, you say 'we must choose', either he is dogging it and it's because of his 'off season' OR the scheme and HC sucks.

Wow, kind of extreme choices, me thinks.

Maybe the entire offense is struggling with the new scheme, QB with a lacerated finger, etc.

I know some of you don't believe it, but it doesn't have to be one or the other.

P,S. If it is Marshall that is the only problem, why did the passing game suck in the 2nd quarter last week when Marshall was on the bench the whole time?

EMB6903
09-27-2009, 10:59 AM
Agreed. Doom had one great game. He was nowhere to be found last year. Yeah, our scheme sucked last year, but rushing the QB is rushing the QB. I love both Doom and Marshall and I hope that both go on to have great seasons and they end up being Broncos for many years to come.

You couldnt be more wrong on that.... the defensive scheme you are in plays a huge part of the success you have as a pass rusher.

honz
09-27-2009, 11:58 AM
You couldnt be more wrong on that.... the defensive scheme you are in plays a huge part of the success you have as a pass rusher.

Not when your job is to rush the passer from the DE/OLB position. You either beat the guy blocking you and get to the QB or you don't. Obviously blitzes and assignments (like being asked to hold the edge) can play a part in what a DE does on any given play, but Doom got plenty of chances to rush the passer last year and he was usually unable to beat blockers in 1 on 1 situations. Last week, Doom got 1 sack off of great coverage against Thomas and then picked on some hack RT. I'm not saying he didn't play well or have a great game, but I need to see more before I can proclaim him as an elite pass rusher.

LoyalSoldier
09-27-2009, 01:00 PM
Not when your job is to rush the passer from the DE/OLB position. You either beat the guy blocking you and get to the QB or you don't. Obviously blitzes and assignments (like being asked to hold the edge) can play a part in what a DE does on any given play, but Doom got plenty of chances to rush the passer last year and he was usually unable to beat blockers in 1 on 1 situations. Last week, Doom got 1 sack off of great coverage against Thomas and then picked on some hack RT. I'm not saying he didn't play well or have a great game, but I need to see more before I can proclaim him as an elite pass rusher.
Sorry, but this is wrong. If the offense is constantly having to change their protection plan to adjust for excess pressure that means there is less of a focus on you which gives you more opportunities. It also prevents line shifts. Also the scheme might not call for you to rush the passer in the same way. It might tell you to play contain instead of rush to prevent a QB running.

Rushing the passer isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

shank
09-27-2009, 01:01 PM
Not when your job is to rush the passer from the DE/OLB position. You either beat the guy blocking you and get to the QB or you don't. Obviously blitzes and assignments (like being asked to hold the edge) can play a part in what a DE does on any given play, but Doom got plenty of chances to rush the passer last year and he was usually unable to beat blockers in 1 on 1 situations. Last week, Doom got 1 sack off of great coverage against Thomas and then picked on some hack RT. I'm not saying he didn't play well or have a great game, but I need to see more before I can proclaim him as an elite pass rusher.

but the whole defensive scheme dictates how long a DE has to get to the QB. our play in the secondary sucked, we had no other players for teams to worry about, and doom constantly got double teamed.

slowick was a big reason why doom had a down year.


nolan's signing has been a huge lift to our team. i'm extremely excited about it. but you know what else is exciting? for the first time in many years, going into next year, our defense will finally have continuity in coaching. we will actually continue to improve, rather than taking the customary offseason step backwards.

TXBRONC
09-27-2009, 09:58 PM
Why would you assume that. I simply pointed out that using an example of him getting the ball to show he's playing hard is not a good example.

I didn't miss him holding down the field though. J/K

I have no idea if Marshall is playing hard on every play but just because he played hard when he had the ball does not show that either.

I didn't get that out what you said. It sounded very much to me saying he's dogging it when ball isn't coming his way. I was just asking how would you know that?

Tned
09-27-2009, 10:13 PM
I didn't get that out what you said. It sounded very much to me saying he's dogging it when ball isn't coming his way. I was just asking how would you know that?

Marshall was the leading receiver again.

Marshall has been dominant since the end of '06, Doom to date has had spurts of dominance.

That said, I think Doom has a really good chance to keep succeeding in this offense. Based on the preseason and first three games, McD and Nolan clearly have put together a defense that can get pressue with the front seven, and still add in some corner/safet blitzes to keep them guessing. I think the fact that there is pressure coming from so many places, makes it harder for them to double Doom, which means he has the chance to keep playing very well.

I sure hope so, we need a truely disruptive DL/LB player.

Day1BroncoFan
09-27-2009, 10:19 PM
Marshall looked like he wanted to play today more than I've seen him yet this year.

Doom has shown that all year.

Tned
09-27-2009, 10:22 PM
Marshall looked like he wanted to play today more than I've seen him yet this year.

Doom has shown that all year.

I honestly haven't seen the "doesn't want to play" or dogging it stuff people claim. I've watched every game at least twice.

As I have said before, maybe we all see what we are looking for. I don't know. Different people are watching the same stuff and coming up with different conclusions.

gregbroncs
09-27-2009, 10:26 PM
I didn't get that out what you said. It sounded very much to me saying he's dogging it when ball isn't coming his way. I was just asking how would you know that?Okay it's cool. I honestly don't know if he is dogging it. My comment really was just pointing out that the example did not prove what the post indicated it did. Like you said the camera is never on the player not with the ball and I am not from Denver so have not seen a game in person since Marshall has been on the team so I have no idea.

Day1BroncoFan
09-27-2009, 10:26 PM
I honestly haven't seen the "doesn't want to play" or dogging it stuff people claim. I've watched every game at least twice.

As I have said before, maybe we all see what we are looking for. I don't know. Different people are watching the same stuff and coming up with different conclusions.

I didn't make any claims about him not wanting to play or dogging or any thing else, not in this post or any other post ever. I just said what I said.

dogfish
09-27-2009, 11:40 PM
Not when your job is to rush the passer from the DE/OLB position. You either beat the guy blocking you and get to the QB or you don't. Obviously blitzes and assignments (like being asked to hold the edge) can play a part in what a DE does on any given play, but Doom got plenty of chances to rush the passer last year and he was usually unable to beat blockers in 1 on 1 situations. Last week, Doom got 1 sack off of great coverage against Thomas and then picked on some hack RT. I'm not saying he didn't play well or have a great game, but I need to see more before I can proclaim him as an elite pass rusher.


gee, you'd think the twenty sacks he had his first two years in the league would count for something. . . . it's not like the cleveland game was the first time the guy's ever played well. . . . take out last year, where he started the season hurt, was asked to play too many snaps and fight through too many double teams as a badly undersized fulltime defensive end on a team that had NO scheme and no other even marginally effective pass rushers-- and besides that one down year he's been an extremely productive pass rusher dating back to college. . .

compare the contracts given to top wide receivers vs. top pass rush specialists, and add in all of marshall's character concerns and the very real suspension risk he presents vs. doom's impeccable character, hustle and work ethic, and for me there's no question who i'd make the top priority for an extension. . . in fact, IMO chris kuper is also deserving of a raise before marshall. . . .

GEM
09-27-2009, 11:59 PM
gee, you'd think the twenty sacks he had his first two years in the league would count for something. . . . it's not like the cleveland game was the first time the guy's ever played well. . . . take out last year, where he started the season hurt, was asked to play too many snaps and fight through too many double teams as a badly undersized fulltime defensive end on a team that had NO scheme and no other even marginally effective pass rushers-- and besides that one down year he's been an extremely productive pass rusher dating back to college. . .

compare the contracts given to top wide receivers vs. top pass rush specialists, and add in all of marshall's character concerns and the very real suspension risk he presents vs. doom's impeccable character, hustle and work ethic, and for me there's no question who i'd make the top priority for an extension. . . in fact, IMO chris kuper is also deserving of a raise before marshall. . . .

I know I got an OH SHIT feeling when Kup went down. Not so much when Marshall isn't in the game. I know they are separate, important pieces. This OLine has to be kept as it is. They are money.

dogfish
09-28-2009, 12:07 AM
I know I got an OH SHIT feeling when Kup went down. Not so much when Marshall isn't in the game. I know they are separate, important pieces. This OLine has to be kept as it is. They are money.

i wouldn't get your hopes up, toots-- smart money says wiegman and hamilton are gone next year. . . if it happens, i expect olsen to fight hochstein for the vacancy at guard, while we either draft a center, bring in a veteran free agent, or both. . .

Poet
09-28-2009, 12:34 AM
I'm always a bit surprised when a journalist writes like a fan. IMO, journalists should subscribe to that indifferent observer theory, and write without their opinion coming through so clearly.




It depends on a lot of things, mainly the assignment they were given. This was not written as a "hard news" story. I don't see a problem with this.

LoyalSoldier
09-28-2009, 01:58 AM
Dumervile has more sacks in 3 games than he did all of last year. I can live with that. It is so nice seeing us being able to pressure the QB.

TXBRONC
09-28-2009, 08:02 AM
I didn't make any claims about him not wanting to play or dogging or any thing else, not in this post or any other post ever. I just said what I said.


Marshall looked like he wanted to play today more than I've seen him yet this year.

What you posted previously comes across as that you think Marshall is dogging it.

Day1BroncoFan
09-28-2009, 10:41 AM
What you posted previously comes across as that you think Marshall is dogging it.

Thanks for your insite into what you think I'm thinking but that's not even close to what I said, it's just how you want to read it.

TXBRONC
09-28-2009, 10:52 AM
Thanks for your insite into what you think I'm thinking but that's not even close to what I said, it's just how you want to read it.

You're more than welcome and I'm more than glad to show you the problems when necessary. :coffee:

Day1BroncoFan
09-28-2009, 11:09 AM
You're more than welcome and I'm more than glad to show you the problems when necessary. :coffee:

As long as you only read what I type you won't have any problems that need pointed out. :coffee: :tea:

TXBRONC
09-28-2009, 12:25 PM
As long as you only read what I type you won't have any problems that need pointed out. :coffee: :tea:

I'm not the one having the problem. :salute:

Day1BroncoFan
09-28-2009, 12:31 PM
I'm not the one having the problem. :salute:

Yes, you are. :salute:

NightTrainLayne
09-28-2009, 01:00 PM
That's enough guys. Knock off the personal sniping.

Day1BroncoFan
09-28-2009, 01:16 PM
That's enough guys. Knock off the personal sniping.

If you're talking to me I'm not sniping anyone.

SmilinAssasSin27
09-28-2009, 06:39 PM
Yeah, that sounded like good natured jabbing to me. No harm. No foul.

CrazyHorse
10-05-2009, 11:31 AM
Both of them.