Our WR's

[gobroncsnv]

I like the guys we have, but we don't seem to get a lot of separation with our passing game. Not sure why that is (lack of speed, need better cuts, acceleration out of a cut, or???), but you just don't see our guys running in space the way folks like Wayne, Johnson, or pick a name. Are our guys slower, or what is the answer here?

This may be a question for those who attend the games, because the TV only shows the receivers running their routes occasionally, and after they make a catch. Just seems like they are taking hits immediately after catching the ball, every play.

Appreciate several points of view on this from those lucky enough to attend the games. I'll take my answer off the air.

[omac]

I think the answers relatively simple, but I won't respond as I haven't seen a game live in the stadium. I do expect a lot of interesting responses here, nice post. :cheers:

[TXBRONC]

I like the guys we have, but we don't seem to get a lot of separation with our passing game. Not sure why that is (lack of speed, need better cuts, acceleration out of a cut, or???), but you just don't see our guys running in space the way folks like Wayne, Johnson, or pick a name. Are our guys slower, or what is the answer here?

This may be a question for those who attend the games, because the TV only shows the receivers running their routes occasionally, and after they make a catch. Just seems like they are taking hits immediately after catching the ball, every play.

Appreciate several points of view on this from those lucky enough to attend the games. I'll take my answer off the air.

I'm meaning this seriously, how much separation are looking for? Because I don't think the kind of separation I think you're talking about happens all that often. Very rarely do receivers get wide open.

[gobroncsnv]

Oh, I don't know,I guess I'm just looking for what I see from ALOT of other teams on highlights every week. I don't know what you're seeing, but look over the careers of Jerry Rice, Steve Smith, TJ, Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, etc, etc, etc... I'm not just talking about just bombs, either... Crossing patterns, slants, name the route... MANY other receivers get room to run after catching the pass. This year, take a look at ANY Pats receiver. We seem to have people breathing down our receivers' necks on most plays. So it seems a logical question to me...

[TXBRONC]

Oh, I don't know,I guess I'm just looking for what I see from ALOT of other teams on highlights every week. I don't know what you're seeing, but look over the careers of Jerry Rice, Steve Smith, TJ, Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, etc, etc, etc... I'm not just talking about just bombs, either... Crossing patterns, slants, name the route... MANY other receivers get room to run after catching the pass. This year, take a look at ANY Pats receiver. We seem to have people breathing down our receivers' necks on most plays. So it seems a logical question to me...

We've had a few of those. Right off the top of my head I can think several instances where that's happened.

[SBboundBRONCOS]

i know what your talking about, i was thinking to myself earlier in the season when i was able to watch the games that it just seems like we are playing with less players than the other team on both offense and defense. :laugh:

now i know that sounds stupid but i swear other teams catch the ball on us with wide open lanes down the middle and can easliy gain like 5-10 more yards before contact. and then add in your point on offense.

but i think at least for the offense its that they havent been given very many chances to make big plays. whether that be by design or Jays decision making on the field . . . . cant be for sure probably a combo of both. but i see us run a lot of slants and routes across the field rather than trying to stretch the D and i think that is our main problem

[BaiLeY324]

It's called a deep threat, and no, we don't have one. That's why Ashley was nice, and I wish he was still a Bronco

[TXBRONC]

It's called a deep threat, and no, we don't have one. That's why Ashley was nice, and I wish he was still a Bronco


When healthy Javon is deep threat.

[Lonestar]

When healthy Javon is deep threat.

So is Marshall and scheffler. They can all catch a deep ball but the real question is which OLINE is gonna give Jay the time for them to get deep.

[omac]

So is Marshall and scheffler. They can all catch a deep ball but the real question is which OLINE is gonna give Jay the time for them to get deep.

That was actually my answer, not just for the deep threat, but for giving receivers time to go through their routes, and for the QB to be able to go through his progressions. With all the examples of receivers mentioned above, they all have pretty good protection for their QBs. Cutler must throw immediately, and that's why the quick slants are what have been most effective. With our receivers, the Broncos could spread out the offense like the Pats, but unlike Brady, Cutler will have no protection.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Eh, Javon has always been a YAC guy, as well as Marshall. Scheffler is a great vertical threat at tight end, but Denver lacks a burner who can play the deep ball like Lelie. They definitely could use one of them, fortunately, this draft is full of 'em.

[topscribe]

Eh, Javon has always been a YAC guy, as well as Marshall. Scheffler is a great vertical threat at tight end, but Denver lacks a burner who can play the deep ball like Lelie. They definitely could use one of them, fortunately, this draft is full of 'em.

What you're looking for is pure speed. Marcus Nash had pure speed. So did
Lelie. Of course, Nash was a bust, and Lelie has proven since he left that the
Broncos had him pegged right in letting him go.

The Broncos of the mid to late '90s were known as an explosive team, and
they proved it, of course. Yet they had no real burners who were productive.

Javon seemed constantly to get behind CBs before he was hurt, and deep.
Even Rod Smith had a few 80-yarders in his heyday, and even in 2005, as I
remember. Marshall is consistently catching them way downfield now.

Incidentally, Shanny mentioned that Stokely was 4.4 coming out of college.

Burner? Meh, that offense is going to be murder to try to stop for a long
time to come. I hope they don't go for one in the draft. If they do, that
means they won't be going for a DT or LB at that spot.

-----

[Escobar]

I think broncos have a very good set of recievers.

[lex]

What you're looking for is pure speed. Marcus Nash had pure speed. So did
Lelie. Of course, Nash was a bust, and Lelie has proven since he left that the
Broncos had him pegged right in letting him go.

The Broncos of the mid to late '90s were known as an explosive team, and
they proved it, of course. Yet they had no real burners who were productive.

Javon seemed constantly to get behind CBs before he was hurt, and deep.
Even Rod Smith had a few 80-yarders in his heyday, and even in 2005, as I
remember. Marshall is consistently catching them way downfield now.

Incidentally, Shanny mentioned that Stokely was 4.4 coming out of college.

Burner? Meh, that offense is going to be murder to try to stop for a long
time to come. I hope they don't go for one in the draft. If they do, that
means they won't be going for a DT or LB at that spot.

-----


Id sign off on Paul Raymond in the 7th.

[SBboundBRONCOS]

What you're looking for is pure speed. Marcus Nash had pure speed. So did
Lelie. Of course, Nash was a bust, and Lelie has proven since he left that the
Broncos had him pegged right in letting him go.

The Broncos of the mid to late '90s were known as an explosive team, and
they proved it, of course. Yet they had no real burners who were productive.

Javon seemed constantly to get behind CBs before he was hurt, and deep.
Even Rod Smith had a few 80-yarders in his heyday, and even in 2005, as I
remember. Marshall is consistently catching them way downfield now.

Incidentally, Shanny mentioned that Stokely was 4.4 coming out of college.

Burner? Meh, that offense is going to be murder to try to stop for a long
time to come. I hope they don't go for one in the draft. If they do, that
means they won't be going for a DT or LB at that spot.

-----

well hopefully with RB shored up (at least for now) we can get a DT, LB, S and maybe a WR

i dont know about Davone Bess from Hawaii maybe dream could help us out :salute:

he isnt the fastest but he is quick and a great catcher he could maybe play the role of stokley in a year or two.

not really sure who is a great verticle threat in this draft though

[Lonestar]

well hopefully with RB shored up (at least for now) we can get a DT, LB, S and maybe a WR

i dont know about Davone Bess from Hawaii maybe dream could help us out :salute:

he isnt the fastest but he is quick and a great catcher he could maybe play the role of stokley in a year or two.

not really sure who is a great verticle threat in this draft though

not another clown from Hawaii please!!!!!! once a decade or more is to much..

I would never draft another WR in the top three rounds as it takes way to long to get them into mikeys scheme. not to mention most are never productive..

Out side of Marshall name one that did good.

[BaiLeY324]

well hopefully with RB shored up (at least for now) we can get a DT, LB, S and maybe a WR

i dont know about Davone Bess from Hawaii maybe dream could help us out :salute:

he isnt the fastest but he is quick and a great catcher he could maybe play the role of stokley in a year or two.

not really sure who is a great verticle threat in this draft though

DeSean Jackson and Mario Manningham if they declare, Andre Caldwell, Donnie Avery, DJ Hall, Eddie Royal.

[SBboundBRONCOS]

DeSean Jackson and Mario Manningham if they declare, Andre Caldwell, Donnie Avery, DJ Hall, Eddie Royal.

well i mean later day guys like 5th a beyond dont know if any of those guys make it that far

[SBboundBRONCOS]

not another clown from Hawaii please!!!!!! once a decade or more is to much..

I would never draft another WR in the top three rounds as it takes way to long to get them into mikeys scheme. not to mention most are never productive..

Out side of Marshall name one that did good.

you can say what you want about lelie and where he is now but he was a damn fine player for us before he went and got a big head

[topscribe]

you can say what you want about lelie and where he is now but he was a damn fine player for us before he went and got a big head

. . . provided he didn't have to go over the middle . . .

----

[SR]

I like our WR core. We've got a great 1-2 punch with Marshall if Javon can get healthy. Stokely has already proven himself. Scheffler is a monster. If our o-line can heal up and give Jay the protection he needs to chuck the ball, we'll be fine. Wasting a draft pick on a WR would be dumb. We've got other needs.

[SBboundBRONCOS]

. . . provided he didn't have to go over the middle . . .

----

well yes but he didnt need too in our offense then, he spread the defense and avg over 15 yards per catch every year he was here. he opened a lot of other options in the offense

[omac]

not another clown from Hawaii please!!!!!! once a decade or more is to much..

I would never draft another WR in the top three rounds as it takes way to long to get them into mikeys scheme. not to mention most are never productive..

Out side of Marshall name one that did good.

The current Hawaii receivers are pretty good, very clutch; no matter, we don't need receivers for the next draft.

[gobroncsnv]

Well trust me, this is not a thread I intended to have to make a case for us getting a WR with our first pick. I know we have most of our problems at the LOS.

And quite frankly, I don't miss Lelie.

Maybe it's that Shanny likes a guy who can block downfield? If so, look no further than BMarsh. We've had great ones before (Big Mac, and Rod), but watching Marshall this season seems to have taken this concept to a new level.

He's gotten behind the D a few times, but usually on his shorter routes, he's having to (and succeeding in) break a tackle to get his YAC.

Appreciate everyone weighing in... Sounds like the consensus so far is it's a speed thing, meaning the D can cover more tightly.

[gobroncsnv]

well yes but he didnt need too in our offense then, he spread the defense and avg over 15 yards per catch every year he was here. he opened a lot of other options in the offense

He didn't need to because he was useless when he did. Developed a case of alligator arms when he ran in traffic. And I think he would have been MUCH more productive if he'd done crossing routes. When all you had to do with him was cover the post or whichever deep route, he was much easier to take out of the play. I was very impressed with his hands, but he could have had a LOT more catches, and would still be here, if his game was not limited to fly patterns.

[Skacorica]

Eh, Javon has always been a YAC guy, as well as Marshall. Scheffler is a great vertical threat at tight end, but Denver lacks a burner who can play the deep ball like Lelie. They definitely could use one of them, fortunately, this draft is full of 'em.

Actually Marshall is great in YAC especially in yards after contact. Infact he leads the league in yards after contact.

As far as "at the game" take on things: there are plenty of times when our receivers get great separation. The problem is twofold, first of all jay not making very good reads, and I think thats a maturity thing. Secondly OLine not providing enough protection. One other thing is that when the pocket starts collapsing, Jay doesnt step toward his receiver to throw it them which drastically reduces accuracy and velocity when he DOES throw. Basically I think it comes down to QB maturity and Oline.

[Lonestar]

you can say what you want about lelie and where he is now but he was a damn fine player for us before he went and got a big head

HE did nothing for us he had a I repeat "A" good season but then everyone that was a a warm body did in 2004. With the ROE in effect CB's were totally ineffective..

#20 in catches (25 catches less than Rod) 26 in 1st downs

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jsessionid=56B3604F43577C562F38E7879 9ED31C4?archive=false&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&statisticPositionCategory=WIDE_RECEIVER&conference=0011&d-447263-s=RECEIVING_RECEPTIONS&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2004&Submit=Find&qualified=true&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=1

ashleys YAC was for crap while his YPC was on the moon. That only means one thing while he was able to make great catches he DID nothing with them once he had the ball. All he ever did was make the catch and for the most part fell to the turf or immediately went out of bounds..

Routine catches for most WR were not usually caught by him but the circus catches were.. That also means one thing a lack of concentration on his part for easy catches.

If the clown was so great why is he the last time I noticed the #4 WR for SFO..

Actually a whooping 6 games with 2 starts this year and 8 catches on 19 actual passes thrown to him and 98 yards with 17YAC.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2007/49ers/

A total loser IMO certainly not a #1 Draft choice any where but in mikeys eyes..

[SBboundBRONCOS]

HE did nothing for us he had a I repeat "A" good season but then everyone that was a a warm body did in 2004. With the ROE in effect CB's were totally ineffective..

#20 in catches (25 catches less than Rod) 26 in 1st downs

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jsessionid=56B3604F43577C562F38E7879 9ED31C4?archive=false&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&statisticPositionCategory=WIDE_RECEIVER&conference=0011&d-447263-s=RECEIVING_RECEPTIONS&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2004&Submit=Find&qualified=true&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=1

ashleys YAC was for crap while his YPC was on the moon. That only means one thing while he was able to make great catches he DID nothing with them once he had the ball. All he ever did was make the catch and for the most part fell to the turf or immediately went out of bounds..

Routine catches for most WR were not usually caught by him but the circus catches were.. That also means one thing a lack of concentration on his part for easy catches.

If the clown was so great why is he the last time I noticed the #4 WR for SFO..

Actually a whooping 6 games with 2 starts this year and 8 catches on 19 actual passes thrown to him and 98 yards with 17YAC.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/stats/2007/49ers/

A total loser IMO certainly not a #1 Draft choice any where but in mikeys eyes..

like i said already, say what you want about where he is now and what he is doing now(the 49s 4-5th string WR)

but when he was here he was very productive and took 2 people out of the play just by running that stupid fly pattern. i mean come on only 56 catches for 1084 yards and 7 TDs . . . . those are damn fine numbers

[SR]

We also call those numbers 'a fluke'.

[Lonestar]

like i said already, say what you want about where he is now and what he is doing now(the 49s 4-5th string WR)

but when he was here he was very productive and took 2 people out of the play just by running that stupid fly pattern. i mean come on only 56 catches for 1084 yards and 7 TDs . . . . those are damn fine numbers


As compared to other WRS' that year middle of the pack

I'm sorry those numbers I posted above were wrong those WERE compared to AFC WR's Note Javons numbers in red

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jsessionid=EB4F5B1296E700D55B97E541E 4EC3C90?archive=true&seasonType=REG&statisticPositionCategory=WIDE_RECEIVER&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=RECEIVING_RECEPTIONS&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2004&Submit=Find&qualified=true&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=1

Compared to all NFL receivers he was #35 in catches.. #7
Compared to all NFL receivers he was #19 in yards. #3
Compared to all NFL receivers he was #20 in TD's. #5
Compared to all NFL receivers he was #47 in 1st downs. #27


He was average at best overall, certainly his crowning year just average to below average. Certainly not a NUMBER pick especially not better than the guy that was picked next, Javon..

What a monumental screw up by Mikey.. The only light at the end of the tunnel was we at least got a lousy draft choice for him. And sadly not even from ATL but via a convoluted trade.

If I would have the time when he left, I would have followed himn to ATL and SFO to see what there fans thought abut him. But hey if you want to follow him be my guest. I prefer to laugh at him from afar.. Let the clown be someone else's issue..

..

[Lonestar]

. . . provided he didn't have to go over the middle . . .

----

ashley over the middle I forgot that, did he ever catch one? :salute: to you

[Lonestar]

The current Hawaii receivers are pretty good, very clutch; no matter, we don't need receivers for the next draft.

The problem with HI is they play in the WAC ashley was a man among boys when playing in college...

I saw him 3-4 times against UTEP either on TV or at the games in ELP One of the games he ran by the CB's and had a career year that game. But once he got into the NFL he found out he could not live by speed alone.. They actually tackled in the NFL and he did not like getting hit.

One of the reasons his YAC was for crap, he went down most of the time like rag doll. In some cases while making the catch. Or going out of bounds.. He had great hands would have loved to have his hands on Watts. ANOTHER HUGE MIKEY screw up.. Just one more reason not to waste a top choice on WR..

I do not know the WAC anymore since UTEP went to C-USA but I doubt that the CB's have improved that much nor do they tackle like they do in the NFL..

I'll pass on any finesse palyer from the WAC, based on past players.

[Lonestar]

Well trust me, this is not a thread I intended to have to make a case for us getting a WR with our first pick. I know we have most of our problems at the LOS.

And quite frankly, I don't miss Lelie.

Maybe it's that Shanny likes a guy who can block downfield? If so, look no further than BMarsh. We've had great ones before (Big Mac, and Rod), but watching Marshall this season seems to have taken this concept to a new level.

He's gotten behind the D a few times, but usually on his shorter routes, he's having to (and succeeding in) break a tackle to get his YAC.

Appreciate everyone weighing in... Sounds like the consensus so far is it's a speed thing, meaning the D can cover more tightly.


He didn't need to because he was useless when he did. Developed a case of alligator arms when he ran in traffic. And I think he would have been MUCH more productive if he'd done crossing routes. When all you had to do with him was cover the post or whichever deep route, he was much easier to take out of the play. I was very impressed with his hands, but he could have had a LOT more catches, and would still be here, if his game was not limited to fly patterns.


Actually Marshall is great in YAC especially in yards after contact. Infact he leads the league in yards after contact.

As far as "at the game" take on things: there are plenty of times when our receivers get great separation. The problem is twofold, first of all jay not making very good reads, and I think thats a maturity thing. Secondly OLine not providing enough protection. One other thing is that when the pocket starts collapsing, Jay doesnt step toward his receiver to throw it them which drastically reduces accuracy and velocity when he DOES throw. Basically I think it comes down to QB maturity and Oline.


Outstanding posts from both of you..

ashley stretched the field no doubt, but his lack of blocking and his ONE good year doomed him from getting the contract he could have had if he was a complete WR.

The moron thought himself the Number 1 guy. Was stupid enough to listen to his advisor's or just looking in the mirror, I'm not sure which.

We ultimately got the better end of that whole deal getting Javon for a #2 and getting at least a big mac and a biggie fry for ashley.. As his performances in ATL and SFO have proved true..

mikey should have called Javons name on draft day to start with.. But then that was when it was bad mikey.. I hope on draft day he remains good mikey..

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Actually Marshall is great in YAC especially in yards after contact. Infact he leads the league in yards after contact.

Uh, where did I say otherwise?

[Grover]

How far back are you going to go looking for reasons? If it's this year only, then I think you need to look at injuries to our OLine and Receivers for the reasons why we might not be burning it up downfield.

If you are going to go back a couple more years than that, then you'll look at the (lack of) ability of Plummer to throw a long ball downfield on target. That was especially true after our competitors put a man on Plummer to prevent him from rolling out and throwing on the run.

It's also not really in the nature of the coaching staff to start calling plays like long balls anyway. I think we're more into pound the ball running, and intermediate passing, than we are to throwing the long ball.

If at some point you see Javon Walker, Brandon Stokley, Brandon Marshall, and Tony Scheffler all healthy at the same time along with an Oline that can offer pass protection, then I think the coaches just might start calling a BUNCH of deep passes. If we ever have more than one fully healthy Receiver running routes, then by default you will see more separation because you won't be able to cover everyone tightly.

But right now, we're not the Patriots and we're not the Colts. So you can't expect us to play like them.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Burner? Meh, that offense is going to be murder to try to stop for a long time to come. I hope they don't go for one in the draft. If they do, that means they won't be going for a DT or LB at that spot.

It doesn't have to be in round one or two, you can find slot receivers who are burners on Day Two, and if Denver trades down they'll have the ability to find one within the top three rounds if they so choose.

I don't see why everyone feels we're set for a long time at wide receiver. Especially with Walker's knee being worse than advertised (and it is, extremely) and that Stokley is a free agent (who might not even want to re-sign here) - that's still two question marks to worry about, and we should worry about it.

If Walker was completely healthy (not the case) and Stokley wasn't a free agent - I wouldn't be worried about it - and it'd NEVER hurt to surround Cutler around with more weapons. Denver could use another quality wide receiver and a returner and this class has a bunch of them.

Take a look at the Green Bay Packers. Jennings and Driver are one of the best duo's in the NFL, but that didn't stop them from adding Jones into the mix as well. Now that's deadly. It's possible that they have three one thousand yard receivers at the end of the year, probably not going to happen - but they'll have two for sure.

Of course, Green Bay doesn't really run the ball - but it's still impressive.

Teams can't defend their package. They have two decent tight ends as well, and I'd argue that talent wise - ours could be better.

It would not hurt at all for Denver to draft an "insurance" policy considering the aforementioned factors. It doesn't have to be a top need on this team, but it's certainly an area on this team that could be improved. Indianapolis, Detroit and the Bengals are just a few other examples. It took a time for some of them, but they're reaping the benefits of having such a deep roster at receiver.

[topscribe]

It doesn't have to be in round one or two, you can find slot receivers who are burners on Day Two, and if Denver trades down they'll have the ability to find one within the top three rounds if they so choose.

I don't see why everyone feels we're set for a long time at wide receiver. Especially with Walker's knee being worse than advertised (and it is, extremely) and that Stokley is a free agent (who might not even want to re-sign here) - that's still two question marks to worry about, and we should worry about it.

If Walker was completely healthy (not the case) and Stokley wasn't a free agent - I wouldn't be worried about it - and it'd NEVER hurt to surround Cutler around with more weapons. Denver could use another quality wide receiver and a returner and this class has a bunch of them.

Take a look at the Green Bay Packers. Jennings and Driver are one of the best duo's in the NFL, but that didn't stop them from adding Jones into the mix as well. Now that's deadly. It's possible that they have three one thousand yard receivers at the end of the year, probably not going to happen - but they'll have two for sure.

Of course, Green Bay doesn't really run the ball - but it's still impressive.

Teams can't defend their package. They have two decent tight ends as well, and I'd argue that talent wise - ours could be better.

It would not hurt at all for Denver to draft an "insurance" policy considering the aforementioned factors. It doesn't have to be a top need on this team, but it's certainly an area on this team that could be improved. Indianapolis, Detroit and the Bengals are just a few other examples. It took a time for some of them, but they're reaping the benefits of having such a deep roster at receiver.

You make some excellent points here, of course.

I just would not want to see it at the expense of more pressing needs, such
as DT, LB, and safety, as you know.

-----

[Lonestar]

You make some excellent points here, of course.

I just would not want to see it at the expense of more pressing needs, such
as DT, LB, and safety, as you know.

-----

I AGREE completely about getting some one AFTER taking care of the OBVIOUS NEEDS first.

Dream did make some good points although no one has reported Javon knee to be "worse that reported" or hinted at that. I suspect that if there was a problem one of the many reporters in DEN would have brought it up, by now..


I agree that Stokely needs to get a "real" long term contract..

With those three if healthy it is a great combo add in the TE's we have in Graham, Scheffler and Nate with the like so Young Hall getting outlet catches this is a awesome group that all can run after the catch..

The real trouble is getting Jay the time to make those throws.. IMO

[topscribe]

I AGREE completely about getting some one AFTER taking care of the OBVIOUS NEEDS first.

Dream did make some good points although no one has reported Javon knee to be "worse that reported" or hinted at that. I suspect that if there was a problem one of the many reporters in DEN would have brought it up, by now..


I agree that Stokely needs to get a "real" long term contract..

With those three if healthy it is a great combo add in the TE's we have in Graham, Scheffler and Nate with the like so Young Hall getting outlet catches this is a awesome group that all can run after the catch..

The real trouble is getting Jay the time to make those throws.. IMO

I don't believe the Broncos are about to let Stokely go, unless he just
simply wants out. I mean, they have made some dumb decisions, yes, but
I don't think they're that dumb.

But I think the line is getting better, little by little. Remember, they have a lot
of youth there, who have not played together before this year. And the
average weight of the group went up significantly with the inclusion of
Myers and Kuper.


-----

[Lonestar]

I don't believe the Broncos are about to let Stokely go, unless he just
simply wants out. I mean, they have made some dumb decisions, yes, but
I don't think they're that dumb.

But I think the line is getting better, little by little. Remember, they have a lot
of youth there, who have not played together before this year. And the
average weight of the group went up significantly with the inclusion of
Myers and Kuper.


-----

I would think unless NE or DAL would make him an offer he would want to stay in DEN in a great system, But mikey does get stupid from time to time..

Yes the OLINE is getting better but next year could mean going back to injured players OLINE..

They really need to play next to each other to move to the next level. The ORG seems to be a revolving door..

The great OLINES of all time were not all blessed with All being all pros all the eh time, they just worked in concert together make them better as a UNIT. They do not have to think about what th guy next to him is going to do.. They just go out a play.. they are not reacting to issues next to them..

[omac]

The problem with HI is they play in the WAC ashley was a man among boys when playing in college...

I saw him 3-4 times against UTEP either on TV or at the games in ELP One of the games he ran by the CB's and had a career year that game. But once he got into the NFL he found out he could not live by speed alone.. They actually tackled in the NFL and he did not like getting hit.

One of the reasons his YAC was for crap, he went down most of the time like rag doll. In some cases while making the catch. Or going out of bounds.. He had great hands would have loved to have his hands on Watts. ANOTHER HUGE MIKEY screw up.. Just one more reason not to waste a top choice on WR..

I do not know the WAC anymore since UTEP went to C-USA but I doubt that the CB's have improved that much nor do they tackle like they do in the NFL..

I'll pass on any finesse palyer from the WAC, based on past players.

You would've had to see them play. They are very talented receivers, great focus on catching the ball, and lots of yards after the catch. These receivers are fighters, and are smart too. It's too bad you didn't catch them while Brennan was throwing to them, as they had an uncanny communication between them.

Don't let a conference immediately give you a negative bias towards the potential of a player. James Jones has done pretty well as a rookie for GB, definitely having a bigger impact than Ted Ginn, and he's a receiver coming out of San Jose State, a WAC team.

[Lonestar]

You would've had to see them play. They are very talented receivers, great focus on catching the ball, and lots of yards after the catch. These receivers are fighters, and are smart too. It's too bad you didn't catch them while Brennan was throwing to them, as they had an uncanny communication between them.

Don't let a conference immediately give you a negative bias towards the potential of a player. James Jones has done pretty well as a rookie for GB, definitely having a bigger impact than Ted Ginn, and he's a receiver coming out of San Jose State, a WAC team.

Well I remember the old WAC and there is almost NO defense in it.

I still think it is a major mistake taking a WR in the draft as they traditionally need 3-4 year before they are worth a dam if EVER..

I'd rather pay for a proven VET or take chances with late rounders or UDFA..

Mikey is 1 for 16 DAFTING them..

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1400&type=team

[omac]

Well I remember the old WAC and there is almost NO defense in it.

I still think it is a major mistake taking a WR in the draft as they traditionally need 3-4 year before they are worth a dam if EVER..

I'd rather pay for a proven VET or take chances with late rounders or UDFA..

Mikey is 1 for 16 DAFTING them..

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1400&type=team

I agree with you, we definitely don't need a WR. We already have a few good ones. We need to focus on defense first.

[Lonestar]

I agree with you, we definitely don't need a WR. We already have a few good ones. We need to focus on defense first.


defense



defense



defense!!!

[Requiem / The Dagda]

You make some excellent points here, of course.

I just would not want to see it at the expense of more pressing needs, such
as DT, LB, and safety, as you know.

-----

Well yeah, absolutely - it'd just depend on the value. Just say Denver had a wide receiver with a second-round grade and they're in the third round - with their nearest safety prospect holding that equivalent grade - you have to consider that wide receiver, ya know? Not many safety's worth taking in the top three rounds this year, so I'd prefer to get the great value at positions such as OT/WR/RB (just because there will be great value there) after we address our much bigger needs, (DT/LB) - but yeah, it's all perspective.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Dream did make some good points although no one has reported Javon knee to be "worse that reported" or hinted at that. I suspect that if there was a problem one of the many reporters in DEN would have brought it up, by now..

Well. . . they sort of are. Walker was expected to be ready by now but is still experiencing a great deal of swelling in his knee. I'm almost certain he didn't think it was going to be this bad, and he's been seeing limited snaps the past two weeks. Well, it's a good thing they're limiting him - but you can still see that he's hurting real bad. It was thought that six weeks later, he'd be okay (Week 9/10) and what week will we be on - 13 - and he's still having lingering problems?

The swelling again and again is really something to worry about, and usually when it comes to injuries - the Broncos have been a little "hush, hush" about them, especially this year. I mean, look at all of them. Half the time we aren't even given the adequate "scoop" on them because they keep them hidden.

A lot of people on the Mane really feel like this Javon situation is like Davis' all over again. Well, you know - how Shanahan was regarding his injury. I obviously can't remember, but I guess a lot of the older fans are seeing parallels between then and now, especially regarding the injury - but not that it's a knee - just the way Mike acts about it, etc.

I know I've said a few times (before that article came out about Javon potentially being dumped) that this might be his last year playing football - and I'm seriously sticking to it. I wouldn't be surprised at all. He can't afford to have the lingering effects of this injury on himself and Denver cannot afford to keep him around if he's not able to play. Couple that with the trauma he's (probably) still suffering from the Williams incident, and that'd be just about enough for anyone to want to sort of "give it up" - not that Walker has ever been that guy (because he hasn't) but it still is worth noting.


The real trouble is getting Jay the time to make those throws.. IMO

Yeah, I'm with you on this. I fully expect Denver to take advantage of this PHENOMENAL offensive tackle class. Even with Harris in the wings, another future guy couldn't help. It'd be nice to not have to "potentially" worry about bookends for the next decade. Jay needs time, give him what he deserves. As I've mentioned in multiple threads and forums, teams who take quarterbacks high usually find a stud OT to pair with him within a year or so. I'm not sure if Harris is it (although he could be) but it wouldn't hurt to better our chances.

[DenBronx]

With all the fire power that New England has at WR now, I wonder if they will cut Chad Jackson or trade him. He has played behind guys like Deion Branch, Randy Moss, Donte Stallworth and Wes Welker. Last year he snagged 3 TD's coming off the bench and I think this year he got hurt. I think NE is gonna be locked with Moss, Welker and Stallworth for a while so that leaves Chad on the outside looking in.

Just 2 years ago I think Chad Jackson was on the Broncos radar to draft a WR. They ended up getting Cutler and Walker by trade. Could Chad Jackson help with the deep ball if he were here in Denver? Doesnt he have really good speed? 40-yard dash - 4.32, vertical jump - 38.5" I think he would make an excellent 4th WR to be groomed into a starter in the future.

[Lonestar]

Well. . . they sort of are. Walker was expected to be ready by now but is still experiencing a great deal of swelling in his knee. I'm almost certain he didn't think it was going to be this bad, and he's been seeing limited snaps the past two weeks. Well, it's a good thing they're limiting him - but you can still see that he's hurting real bad. It was thought that six weeks later, he'd be okay (Week 9/10) and what week will we be on - 13 - and he's still having lingering problems?

The swelling again and again is really something to worry about, and usually when it comes to injuries - the Broncos have been a little "hush, hush" about them, especially this year. I mean, look at all of them. Half the time we aren't even given the adequate "scoop" on them because they keep them hidden.

A lot of people on the Mane really feel like this Javon situation is like Davis' all over again. Well, you know - how Shanahan was regarding his injury. I obviously can't remember, but I guess a lot of the older fans are seeing parallels between then and now, especially regarding the injury - but not that it's a knee - just the way Mike acts about it, etc.

I know I've said a few times (before that article came out about Javon potentially being dumped) that this might be his last year playing football - and I'm seriously sticking to it. I wouldn't be surprised at all. He can't afford to have the lingering effects of this injury on himself and Denver cannot afford to keep him around if he's not able to play. Couple that with the trauma he's (probably) still suffering from the Williams incident, and that'd be just about enough for anyone to want to sort of "give it up" - not that Walker has ever been that guy (because he hasn't) but it still is worth noting.



Yeah, I'm with you on this. I fully expect Denver to take advantage of this PHENOMENAL offensive tackle class. Even with Harris in the wings, another future guy couldn't help. It'd be nice to not have to "potentially" worry about bookends for the next decade. Jay needs time, give him what he deserves. As I've mentioned in multiple threads and forums, teams who take quarterbacks high usually find a stud OT to pair with him within a year or so. I'm not sure if Harris is it (although he could be) but it wouldn't hurt to better our chances.


You make some interesting points.. Yet as much as OM seems to be the end all if I do not hear it via NORMAL reporters who after all are close to the team and sources with in the training room. I'll pass on it as just someone needing to talk about something..

Yes we do need OLINE to protect Jay but, I'd never waste another top choice to do so. Perhaps bringing in someone as FA. But mikeys failures on day one with LOS guys are almost legendary.

[underrated29]

nah, ne isnt goint to get rid of jackson, just like they arent going to take dmac, when they got maroney. You are right though, they have a ton of wr on roster. It would be sick if we could snag him for a pick, but we need our top picks for other guys imo. There is the rumor that chad johnson is going to be somewhere else next year too. He would be too high price for us i think.

I would really like to see 1st pick trade back 6 or so then get a DT. 2nd pick get a LB, 2nd 2nd pick (from moving back) an OLINE. 3rd bpa of dt/lb, after that rb/wr/kr/s in any order.

[Medford Bronco]

So is Marshall and scheffler. They can all catch a deep ball but the real question is which OLINE is gonna give Jay the time for them to get deep.

The one with Nalen and Hamilton, not the current version IMO

[gobroncsnv]

Vis-a-vis the WAC wide receivers, don't be too quick to sell out this conference...

Henry Ellard
Stephen Baker
Nate Burleson
Bernard Berrian
James Jones
Kevin Curtis

There are more, but that's all I can think of in a short setting. I always wondered how much better Ellard would have been if he had played for almost anyone besides the Rams in the Eric Dickerson years for the early part of his career.

You absolutely can't rule out the oline's role in this, allowing time for the patterns to blossom. For how long this group has been together (as in "NOT"), I have to commend them. No doubt they have caused us some problems, but not NEARLY as many as would have been expected. We HAVE to tune up the right side, but all in all, you just can't completely fault these guys based on how limited they have together in the saddle.

Again, thanks everyone for weighing in. Kind of nice hitting this board where everyone doesn't try to jump down your throat to show you up. Way to keep it real, people. :salute:

[TXBRONC]

Vis-a-vis the WAC wide receivers, don't be too quick to sell out this conference...

Henry Ellard
Stephen Baker
Nate Burleson
Bernard Berrian
James Jones
Kevin Curtis

There are more, but that's all I can think of in a short setting. I always wondered how much better Ellard would have been if he had played for almost anyone besides the Rams in the Eric Dickerson years for the early part of his career.

You absolutely can't rule out the oline's role in this, allowing time for the patterns to blossom. For how long this group has been together (as in "NOT"), I have to commend them. No doubt they have caused us some problems, but not NEARLY as many as would have been expected. We HAVE to tune up the right side, but all in all, you just can't completely fault these guys based on how limited they have together in the saddle.

Again, thanks everyone for weighing in. Kind of nice hitting this board where everyone doesn't try to jump down your throat to show you up. Way to keep it real, people. :salute:


Ellard's career numbers are still very respectable even though he was on a run oriented team.

One thing though, when Ellard went Fresno State they were not in the WAC at that time.

[Beastlyskronk]

I've heard alot of names being thrown out there. I know that there will be people to disagree with this. Would anyone object to drafting Early Doucet if he comes out this year? Yes I know he has a similiar mindset to Ashley Lelie as far as getting hit.

Also I heard someone mention this year being great in OTs but I think we should draft a guy like Herman Johnson. A big guard like 340 I think. Plus we don't know how well Ben Hamilton will be next year.

[TXBRONC]

I've heard alot of names being thrown out there. I know that there will be people to disagree with this. Would anyone object to drafting Early Doucet if he comes out this year? Yes I know he has a similiar mindset to Ashley Lelie as far as getting hit.

Also I heard someone mention this year being great in OTs but I think we should draft a guy like Herman Johnson. A big guard like 340 I think. Plus we don't know how well Ben Hamilton will be next year.

It's not a move a would favor, especially if they picked on the first day. I don't know if he is first day material but there are just other things that should be dealt with first.

[Beastlyskronk]

I really think he's a 3rd round pick which we currently don't have. He is a great return man and plus he is from LSU so I think he'll do okay in run blocking. At least you know he'll try.

[Lonestar]

Vis-a-vis the WAC wide receivers, don't be too quick to sell out this conference...

Henry Ellard
Stephen Baker
Nate Burleson
Bernard Berrian
James Jones
Kevin Curtis

There are more, but that's all I can think of in a short setting. I always wondered how much better Ellard would have been if he had played for almost anyone besides the Rams in the Eric Dickerson years for the early part of his career.

You absolutely can't rule out the oline's role in this, allowing time for the patterns to blossom. For how long this group has been together (as in "NOT"), I have to commend them. No doubt they have caused us some problems, but not NEARLY as many as would have been expected. We HAVE to tune up the right side, but all in all, you just can't completely fault these guys based on how limited they have together in the saddle.

Again, thanks everyone for weighing in. Kind of nice hitting this board where everyone doesn't try to jump down your throat to show you up. Way to keep it real, people. :salute:


Hey I did not say they did not have talent just that they do not play defense in the WAC, at least not much and frankly all of those listed have not exactly been HOF players either.


It matters not who the player combo is it take time to make those long passes Jay just can't throw up a long one and expect someone to run under it.. About the third we do that the safeties will be back there deep enough to handle it..

It is a good forum except for a few..

But they have all been banned by now..






















JK ;)

[Simple Jaded]

I believe Early Doucet III is a senior....I also believe that Walkers knee is worse than reported.

His name and the words "Micro" and "Fracture" have already been introduced. (Or is that one word?)

So I believe taking Doucet (Or a WR) might not be a bad idea, but he could be a 1st rounder......

[Lonestar]

I believe Early Doucet III is a senior....I also believe that Walkers knee is worse than reported.

His name and the words "Micro" and "Fracture" have already been introduced. (Or is that one word?)
So I believe taking Doucet (Or a WR) might not be a bad idea, but he could be a 1st rounder......


One word, but do you have any credible links other than OM or BM.

[TXBRONC]

I really think he's a 3rd round pick which we currently don't have. He is a great return man and plus he is from LSU so I think he'll do okay in run blocking. At least you know he'll try.

I suppose if we can't find good quality at position of greater need, however we just might be set with return game. Hall has done a very good job as our kick returner, and Martinez has great as the punt returner. Martinez is averaging 16 yards per return.

[Simple Jaded]

One word, but do you have any credible links other than OM or BM.

The "mentioned" it in the Post, Jr, the qoute was something like: "If his knee has any furthure problems he may need microfracture surgery"....

Let me see if I can find it, it was in one of the gameday articles......

[Lonestar]

The "mentioned" it in the Post, Jr, the qoute was something like: "If his knee has any furthure problems he may need microfracture surgery"....

Let me see if I can find it, it was in one of the gameday articles......

Thanks for the info but I think the key word in there is IF. I d not see the DP sports sections often as they are cumbersome to upload

I for one will wait till the off season before retiring him.

[Simple Jaded]

Here is a Post article from November:

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2007/11/07/walker-might-return-nov-19-vs-titans/

There was another one in one of the gameday sections, I'll see if I can find that one too......

[Simple Jaded]

Thanks for the info but I think the key word in there is IF. I d not see the DP sports sections often as they are cumbersome to upload

I for one will wait till the off season before retiring him.

It's still absolutely a huge "if"....From my side it's mostly just me being negative......

[Lonestar]

It's still absolutely a huge "if"....From my side it's mostly just me being negative......

Hey everyone says that about me..

But I have seen many Knee problem over the year.. Almost none of them were right until the second year.. That means back to normal with no swelling, pain or confidence in them till 18 to 24 months later..

Even if he has lost a partial step he still can be my WR any day.. Eddie Mac was not a burner either.. or for that matter Rod. they did not turn out all that bad..

[Simple Jaded]

Another one from the "Around the league" article:

"There has been speculation Broncos receiver Javon Walker needs microfracture surgery on his injured knee. Walker, who hopes to return Nov. 19 against Tennessee, might need the surgery in the offseason. If so, the Broncos are confident Walker will be ready for the 2008 season. .."

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_7410162

[Simple Jaded]

Hey everyone says that about me..

But I have seen many Knee problem over the year.. Almost none of them were right until the second year.. That means back to normal with no swelling, pain or confidence in them till 18 to 24 months later..

Even if he has lost a partial step he still can be my WR any day.. Eddie Mac was not a burner either.. or for that matter Rod. they did not turn out all that bad..


I hope he's done with surgeries....But after the way this year has gone, I'm just prepared for anything......