Fire John Elway

[Edmonton Bronco Fan]

It's time. Enough is enough.

The underwhelming draft selections, the inability to properly address and identify weaknesses on his roster, his shortsighted and baffling coaching hires, the reluctance and outright refusal to develop young QB's as well as refusing to rebuild a roster that isn't close to being competitive. It's clear that Elway is in over his head and has outstayed his welcome.

Nothing will change until wholesale changes are made and that starts from the top. We need to get an executive in here that isn't blinded by their own ego and misses the forest for the trees. Elway is analogous to jamming a round peg into a square hole at this point in time when it comes to this team. Keep him and we'll continue wallowing in mediocrity... which I'm not sure you can even call it anymore with the dumpster fire we're witnessing this season.

Thanks for everything you've given to this franchise, John.... but it's time to move on.

[Timmy!]

Won't happen.....at least not this year.

/thread

[Poet]

He’s had two nice drafts back to back.

However, he can’t find a QB or head coach.

[LawDog]

This just smacks of “gotta blame somebody”. Firing Elway doesn’t actually do anything.

If it makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

[Northman]

Even if we fire Elway and Fangio I have no confidence they will find suitable replacements anyway

[Poet]

This just smacks of “gotta blame somebody”. Firing Elway doesn’t actually do anything.

If it makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

It means you get rid of a GM that can’t find a HC.

[Nomad]

Someone mentioned how they miss Pat Bowlen running the team.....I agree.

[LawDog]

It means you get rid of a GM that can’t find a HC.

There is that, to a point. VJ was just kept around too long, I get what the hire was about, but the unwillingness to admit that it wasn’t working was a problem. Fangio is just a head scratcher, he brought some old school intangibles during the early offseason, but just hasn’t figured out what his job actually is yet. Maybe he will, but if he doesn’t I don’t want to waste another 3 years playing ostrich.

We as fans are pretty spoiled and haven’t endured a truly sucky season. This may be that with 3-4 wins. More likely they go 7-9 or 8-8 with a mediocre draft position. And even so, I don’t see them trading out talent for draft picks - just not in their DNA.

[Cugel]

I'm already here. Elway just wasted the last 3 seasons because of his failed leadership.

Bill of Indictment: "That John Elway has mismanaged his duties as GM and Team President of Football Operations."

Count One: "2013-2017 Drafts. What's our hand? "Two of nothing, three of crap, 4 of for-get-about-it, 5 of get-out-of-town, six of 'time for a lynchin'."

Count Two: Brock Osweiler, Trevor Siemian, Paxton Lynch, Case Keenum, and Joe Flacco.

Count Three: Vance Joseph followed by Vic Fangio.

Three strikes and you're out, baby. :coffee:

[Simple Jaded]

I'm already here. Elway just wasted the last 3 seasons because of his failed leadership.

Bill of Indictment: "That John Elway has mismanaged his duties as GM and Team President of Football Operations."

Count One: "2013-2017 Drafts. What's our hand? "Two of nothing, three of crap, 4 of for-get-about-it, 5 of get-out-of-town, six of 'time for a lynchin'."

Count Two: Brock Osweiler, Trevor Siemian, Paxton Lynch, Case Keenum, and Joe Flacco.

Count Three: Vance Joseph followed by Vic Fangio.

Three strikes and you're out, baby. :coffee:

Why are you so ******* weird?

[Edmonton Bronco Fan]

Why are you so ******* weird?

What's weird about what he said?

Looks pretty spot-on to me.

[Edmonton Bronco Fan]

Our defense also hasn't been the same since Elway's enormous ego forced us to part ways with Wade who, nobody has anybody doubts about it, was the mastermind of one of the best NFL defenses ever.

Another in the long line of mistakes attributable to him.

[underrated29]

Why are you so ******* weird?

Lol

[MOtorboat]

There are a lot of uncomfortable truths this franchise has to deal with right now. I don’t know if I’m at this point, but it’s not good.

[Northman]

There are a lot of uncomfortable truths this franchise has to deal with right now. I don’t know if I’m at this point, but it’s not good.

Same with a portion of the fanbase as well.

[Nomad]

Who would you get to replace Elway?

[Magnificent Seven]

It's not Elway's fault. It is Joel Ellis' fault! Ellis ejected Elway's plan to bring Mike Shanahan back to Denver.

[Shazam!]

Who would you get to replace Elway?

This. And it would scare the hell outta me.

[Simple Jaded]

Scot McCloughan.

[Cugel]

Why are you so ******* weird?

Why thank you! It's a gift!

[Poet]

It's not Elway's fault. It is Joel Ellis' fault! Ellis ejected Elway's plan to bring Mike Shanahan back to Denver.

Thank God for Ellis. We'd have been in worse shape with an old past his prime head coach, getting paid more money with more loyalty to him. Joe Ellis is the sane party.

[Cugel]

See, normally when a GM fails as spectacularly as Elway has since SB 50 he would already be fired. Then the new GM would come in and take one look at the roster and say "this is total suck! I've got to blow it up and start over by getting a first round draft pick franchise QB who doesn't suck."

Lots of teams have done that in recent years (Cleveland, Buffalo, Jets, Cardinals, now Giants, etc. etc.). ELway has gone in the opposite direction -- get older and more vanilla with Vic Fangio and Joe FLacco.

But, since he still has his job, just blowing it up and going with Drew Lock this season would be an indictment --- of John Elway. So, he's not going to do that.

He's not going to admit that everything he's done the last 3 years was moving in the wrong direction. Therein lies the problem.

ELway can't fix the problem because the problem is Elway and his insistence on doing things his way, even when "his way" isn't working. There is nobody in this Broncos organization capable of holding him accountable.

Joe Ellis isn't going to fire John Elway, and there's no owner in charge.

[BigDaddyBronco]

What is the identity of this franchise? Are we a defense and run heavy team? Power team or finesse? Balanced offense? I can't see a plan and haven't sense Manning retired.

The GM should have a long term and short term plan and a vision for the team. With this he can get the coaches that match this vision and draft players to it as well.

Seems like a former player would understand how important the trenches are, but we have been woefully negligent on strengthening both of these areas for years. Guess what, you don't have Manning to cover it up anymore.

Who are the Broncos anymore?

We need a GM with a vision and a plan.

[Northman]

What is the identity of this franchise? Are we a defense and run heavy team? Power team or finesse? Balanced offense? I can't see a plan and haven't sense Manning retired.

The GM should have a long term and short term plan and a vision for the team. With this he can get the coaches that match this vision and draft players to it as well.

Seems like a former player would understand how important the trenches are, but we have been woefully negligent on strengthening both of these areas for years. Guess what, you don't have Manning to cover it up anymore.

Who are the Broncos anymore?

We need a GM with a vision and a plan.

I think John wants it to be defensive. At least in terms of his HC choices however the choices are very green at the HC level and thus are not very innovative on the offensive side of the ball. And since we have been losing talent on the defensive side of the ball its not near as strong as it was but nothing i have seen has shown that John is looking to be an offensive team which is the direction i think we should be going.

[Shazam!]

There is a MASSIVE leadership void on the team. Von isnt the one.

[Poet]

There is a MASSIVE leadership void on the team. Von isnt the one.

We got rid of several of our leaders. That's also on John to an extent.

[Shazam!]

Im sorry i think Shanahan would have been a better option at this point, and Elway will always say he was the choice. At least no rookie play calling offense learning curve.

Seriously couldnt be much worse.

[Northman]

There is a MASSIVE leadership void on the team. Von isnt the one.

This was my same problem with Champ, great player but not a leader. I love Von and all but if you are the face of the franchise as Wave wants me to believe than you need to act like it and show some fire and get in players faces when they are ******* up. The ho hum attitude just doesnt cut it.

[Northman]

Im sorry i think Shanahan would have been a better option at this point, and Elway will always say he was the choice. At least no rookie play calling offense learning curve.

Seriously couldnt be much worse.

I would disgree as i think the game has passed Shanny by but Fangio was a bad choice for sure.

[Shazam!]

There is a MASSIVE leadership void on the team. Von isnt the one.

We got rid of several of our leaders. That's also on John to an extent.

There were many opportunity for others to step in and step up. No one did.

[MOtorboat]

Who would you get to replace Elway?

Another GM.

[Nomad]

Another GM.

Are there any good ones out there?

[Shazam!]

Who would you get to replace Elway?

Another GM.

Who would that be? That's almost much worse of a crap shoot as a Draft pick.

[Nomad]

Who has the power to fire Elway? Ellis?

[Shazam!]

Who has the power to fire Elway? Ellis?

I believe so.

[MOtorboat]

Are there any good ones out there?


Sure. It may be a situation where Elway takes a step back on full operational duties as president of football operations and hires a GM with more power, while he stays with the organization. I’m not sure he’d allow that, but it’s not working at the moment and some changes and some innovation are needed.

I think the ownership situation really complicates this, however.

[Northman]

Who would that be? That's almost much worse of a crap shoot as a Draft pick.

You cant be scared of change, even if it means Elway. If Elway isnt getting it done than keeping him isnt the answer and will only make things worse.

[Simple Jaded]

The problem with the SB50 leadership is they became toxic when the offense started to struggle, they have been counterproductive ever since, imo.

From what I understand that locker room is a meat grinder when times are tough, dating back to Orton/Tebow, the main reason I like Flacco at this point.

[Cugel]

Joe Ellis could fire Elway, but he would never do that. He doesn't want his legacy being the one who fired Elway and shoved him out the door to Dove Valley. They are long-term cronies and I think they both imagine retiring in a few years when Elway's contract expires.

If Pat Bowlen was in charge the team would have already changed direction or else Elway would be gone just like Pat fired Mike Shanahan when it was clearly not working.

[LawDog]

You cant be scared of change, even if it means Elway. If Elway isnt getting it done than keeping him isnt the answer and will only make things worse.

Change for the sake of change is not a good strategy.

[Northman]

Change for the sake of change is not a good strategy.

Yea, but this isnt a case like that. Its pretty clear what Elway is doing isnt working.

[Poet]

Change for the sake of change is not a good strategy.

Elway has shown he can fix his drafting strategies. And I love the last two drafts. A's in my book. But he can't face the reality of the fact we need a rebuild and not a half-baked one. And he can't seem to find a workable head coach unless the roster is loaded from FA.

I don't know if it's change for the sake of change.

[Edmonton Bronco Fan]

Change for the sake of change is not a good strategy.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

[wayninja]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

NO it's really not.

Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine. I see this a lot. Sometimes this quote is also erroneously attributed to Einstein.

People do stuff all the time, over and over, and expect different results. Rationally, even.

[Northman]

NO it's really not.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJ96gxTV4AAneqI.jpg

[Valar Morghulis]

Elway hired a coach that got us to the Superbowl and hired another that won it.

He made a terrible call on VJ, even at the time it was a terrible call.

Fangio doesn't look like a good appointment, but it is to soon to tell. Currently, on those that we can judge, 66% of elway coaches have taken us to a Superbowl.

Both Superbowl teams were built by elway. On an offensive juggernaut, the other a defensive powerhouse.

His last two drafts have been pretty good.

Made a lot of errors, especially post Superbowl 50....... But I think the fire elway thread seems unfair.

He has continually attempted to fix positions of need, they just haven't worked out. I know of no gm that nails it all the time.

It's not great, but that's the NFL....... Apart from the Patriots, name one team that has consistently dominated since elway retired.

We are in a funk, it happens, elway will get us out of it. #eli

[Shazam!]

Elway hired a coach that got us to the Superbowl and hired another that won it.

He made a terrible call on VJ, even at the time it was a terrible call.

Fangio doesn't look like a good appointment, but it is to soon to tell. Currently, on those that we can judge, 66% of elway coaches have taken us to a Superbowl.

Both Superbowl teams were built by elway. On an offensive juggernaut, the other a defensive powerhouse.

His last two drafts have been pretty good.

Made a lot of errors, especially post Superbowl 50....... But I think the fire elway thread seems unfair.

He has continually attempted to fix positions of need, they just haven't worked out. I know of no gm that nails it all the time.

It's not great, but that's the NFL....... Apart from the Patriots, name one team that has consistently dominated since elway retired.

We are in a funk, it happens, elway will get us out of it. #eli

I think he needs help and cant do it himself anymore.

[Hawgdriver]

I think he needs help and cant do it himself anymore.

I think Elway is too sauced and indifferent and has lost the belly-fire...our 20-31 record post-Manning, 11-24 post-Kubiak, is proof. :hottake:

I don't blame him. I'd need a shot of whiskey in my coffee if I had to operate under the vision of some nebulous trust structure.

[Cugel]

Both Superbowl teams were built by elway. On an offensive juggernaut, the other a defensive powerhouse.

His last two drafts have been pretty good.

Made a lot of errors, especially post Superbowl 50....... But I think the fire elway thread seems unfair.

He has continually attempted to fix positions of need, they just haven't worked out. I know of no gm that nails it all the time.

It's not great, but that's the NFL....... Apart from the Patriots, name one team that has consistently dominated since elway retired.

We are in a funk, it happens, elway will get us out of it. #eli

No, sadly he won't "get us out of it" because he has ZERO strategic vision. None.

He managed to sign Manning and that enabled him to sign a bunch of elite FAs (Demarcus Ware, Aqib Talib, TJ Ward, Emannuel Sanders) who signed team friendly deals to win SBs with Peyton.

Manning covered up for a TON of weaknesses (weak OL, weak receiver corps, no good pass catching TEs after Julius Thomas left). When he left those weaknesses were exposed -- just like in Indy when he left there.

Elway's draft from 2013 to 2018 were just trash. That should be the core of this team. That's why there's no team depth.

So, repeated failure at the draft.

Then there's the QBs. This is now a league where there is only ONE path to repeated playoff success, have an elite QB. Lots of teams have tried to draft one.

Elway has refused. He keeps insisting that he has a "reboot, not a rebuilding team". It's been nonsense and has been repeating the same nonsense for 3 years now.

Realistically this team is going nowhere with Joe Flacco, so they will have to pick a young franchise QB. Is that Drew Lock? Maybe, we'll have to see.

Then they'll have to train the new guy. That will take a year or two before they are ready to compete (take a look at other rebuilding teams that have selected their franchise QBs - Jets, Buffalo, Cleveland, Houston, Giants, Cardinals).

None of those teams look like they will be 12-4 SB juggernauts any time soon. It's a long rebuilding process, but at least they have a guy they can build around.

Denver doesn't. Not yet. And maybe not for years to come.

[Valar Morghulis]

I stated his strengths

You stated his weaknesses

Potato popobot

[Cugel]

I think Elway is too sauced and indifferent and has lost the belly-fire...our 20-31 record post-Manning, 11-24 post-Kubiak, is proof. :hottake:

I don't blame him. I'd need a shot of whiskey in my coffee if I had to operate under the vision of some nebulous trust structure.

The nebulous trust structure enables Elway to run the team however he wants. Ellis isn't going to fire him because of the fan backlash from firing John Elway. That move would expose Ellis to intensive criticism. And he can't take such risks because he is NOT the owner, just acting owner because of the trust. Elway is his security blanket because everybody in CO loves Elway from the SB years and because he brought Peyton and won another championship.

No owner is why Elway has such job security. If Pat Bowlen were still in charge, Elway would be on the hot seat right now. Bowlen would release him at the end of the year for 4 years without a playoff appearance and 3 losing seasons in a row, just like he did Mike Shanahan whose performance was actually better than what Elway is doing.

[Cugel]

I stated his strengths

You stated his weaknesses

Potato popobot

Good point. But, I'm looking at the future and it doesn't look any different than the present. What's the future? Where's the franchise QB who's going to change the Broncos fortunes like Pat Mahomes did for the Chiefs or Deshaun Watson for the Texans (both QBs the Broncos could have drafted BTW)?

He's nowhere in sight. Is it Lock? We need to find out because the one thing every fan can agree on is that Flacco is obviously not good enough to lift a bad team.

But, Elway still lives in a land of total denial. His persistent refusal to face reality and deal with it has left this team floundering in limbo. Not good enough to win now and no viable plan for the future, except keep groping in the dark, hoping to find something.

[The Glue Factory]

Good point. But, I'm looking at the future and it doesn't look any different than the present. What's the future? Where's the franchise QB who's going to change the Broncos fortunes like Pat Mahomes did for the Chiefs or Deshaun Watson for the Texans (both QBs the Broncos could have drafted BTW)?

He's nowhere in sight. Is it Lock? We need to find out because the one thing every fan can agree on is that Flacco is obviously not good enough to lift a bad team.

But, Elway still lives in a land of total denial. His persistent refusal to face reality and deal with it has left this team floundering in limbo. Not good enough to win now and no viable plan for the future, except keep groping in the dark, hoping to find something.

Hindsight is 20/20 and nobody knew those QBs would turn into the FQB any more than the other QBs in their respective drafts. I'm sure if we look at the draft threads from those years, we'd have lots of draft "gurus" on this very board arguing why we should pass on both of those options.

[Hawgdriver]

The nebulous trust structure enables Elway to run the team however he wants. Ellis isn't going to fire him because of the fan backlash from firing John Elway. That move would expose Ellis to intensive criticism. And he can't take such risks because he is NOT the owner, just acting owner because of the trust. Elway is his security blanket because everybody in CO loves Elway from the SB years and because he brought Peyton and won another championship.

No owner is why Elway has such job security. If Pat Bowlen were still in charge, Elway would be on the hot seat right now. Bowlen would release him at the end of the year for 4 years without a playoff appearance and 3 losing seasons in a row, just like he did Mike Shanahan whose performance was actually better than what Elway is doing.

You seem to think Ellis and the rest of the trust are more beholden or deferential to Elway than I. I do not see it as you do, but perhaps there is some truth to it.

[wayninja]

You seem to think Ellis and the rest of the trust are more beholden or deferential to Elway than I. I do not see it as you do, but perhaps there is some truth to it.

I think there is truth to it. Elway has some serious pull in this town, regardless of what his title says. I imagine Elway pinning Ellis up against the wall by the throat and threatening to toss him into the endzone like he's trying to hit Smith unless Ellis allows him to draft/hire who he wants....etc.

[Hawgdriver]

I think there is truth to it. Elway has some serious pull in this town, regardless of what his title says. I imagine Elway pinning Ellis up against the wall by the throat and threatening to toss him into the endzone like he's trying to hit Smith unless Ellis allows him to draft/hire who he wants....etc.

Yeah, guess I just don't see it that way, more like the other way around.

[wayninja]

Yeah, guess I just don't see it that way, more like the other way around.

15012

[Simple Jaded]

Elway hired a coach that got us to the Superbowl and hired another that won it.

He made a terrible call on VJ, even at the time it was a terrible call.

Fangio doesn't look like a good appointment, but it is to soon to tell. Currently, on those that we can judge, 66% of elway coaches have taken us to a Superbowl.

Both Superbowl teams were built by elway. On an offensive juggernaut, the other a defensive powerhouse.

His last two drafts have been pretty good.

Made a lot of errors, especially post Superbowl 50....... But I think the fire elway thread seems unfair.

He has continually attempted to fix positions of need, they just haven't worked out. I know of no gm that nails it all the time.

It's not great, but that's the NFL....... Apart from the Patriots, name one team that has consistently dominated since elway retired.

We are in a funk, it happens, elway will get us out of it. #eli

There’s no doubt Elway can do it, he’s done it twice before.

[Cugel]

Hindsight is 20/20 and nobody knew those QBs would turn into the FQB any more than the other QBs in their respective drafts. I'm sure if we look at the draft threads from those years, we'd have lots of draft "gurus" on this very board arguing why we should pass on both of those options.

You have to have a strategic plan and choose somebody. You can't say that "nobody knew" that Pat Mahomes or Deshaun Watson would be franchise QBs.

Mahomes was drafted with the 10th pick of the first round and Watson with the 12th. They were obvious first round picks. Of course, not every 1st rounder is great (Paxton), but your chances are better.

Most SB QBs were 1st round picks. Occasionally, some team gets lucky like with Tom Brady or Russell Wilson, but it's rare and you can't count on it. Most of the time your 3rd round QBs wind up being Davis Webb or C.J. Beathard and not Russell Wilson.

Most of the time your second rounders wind up being Christian Hackenburg, or Geno Smith rather than Jimmy Garappolo or Derek Carr.

We don't know if Drew Lock is another Osweiler, but they better find out THIS YEAR, and not waste another couple of years screwing around with plans that have no chance of working. The Flacco plan is not working, has not worked and will not work.

Anybody who can't see that is delusional.

[Cugel]

There’s no doubt Elway can do it, he’s done it twice before.

Twice as a GM? He came in, got rid of Tebow, and signed Peyton. That's once. As a player doesn't count since he wasn't GM, Mike Shanahan was.

[Hawgdriver]

Twice as a GM? He came in, got rid of Tebow, and signed Peyton. That's once. As a player doesn't count since he wasn't GM, Mike Shanahan was.

He might be counting Foxy.

[Hawgdriver]

BTW Cugel I disagree with your post.


You have to have a strategic plan and choose somebody. You can't say that "nobody knew" that Pat Mahomes or Deshaun Watson would be franchise QBs.

Mahomes was drafted with the 10th pick of the first round and Watson with the 12th. They were obvious first round picks. Of course, not every 1st rounder is great (Paxton), but your chances are better.

Most SB QBs were 1st round picks. Occasionally, some team gets lucky like with Tom Brady or Russell Wilson, but it's rare and you can't count on it. Most of the time your 3rd round QBs wind up being Davis Webb or C.J. Beathard and not Russell Wilson.

Most of the time your second rounders wind up being Christian Hackenburg, or Geno Smith rather than Jimmy Garappolo or Derek Carr.

We don't know if Drew Lock is another Osweiler, but they better find out THIS YEAR, and not waste another couple of years screwing around with plans that have no chance of working. The Flacco plan is not working, has not worked and will not work.

Anybody who can't see that is delusional.

#1 -- you are wrong about Mahomes. He was not obvious first round material. He was 3d round material, a product of Tech's Air Raid. Big numbers that don't translate. It wasn't until a week or two prior to the draft that rumors of Mahomes going late in the 1st round were heard. You are correct that the scout that loved him saw something and knew what he was doing--so if that scout could do it, then so could another observer.

#2 -- The Flacco plan could work and that is not delusional thinking. Saying we need to play Lock this year because winning with Flacco is a pipe dream...sorry...Flacco gives your otherwise solid team a chance. I have a strong preference for Rodgers, Brees, Mahomes, Wilson, and maybe a few others, but he's an NFL QB1.

[Poet]

BTW Cugel I disagree with your post.



#1 -- you are wrong about Mahomes. He was not obvious first round material. He was 3d round material, a product of Tech's Air Raid. Big numbers that don't translate. It wasn't until a week or two prior to the draft that rumors of Mahomes going late in the 1st round were heard. You are correct that the scout that loved him saw something and knew what he was doing--so if that scout could do it, then so could another observer.

#2 -- The Flacco plan could work and that is not delusional thinking. Saying we need to play Lock this year because winning with Flacco is a pipe dream...sorry...Flacco gives your otherwise solid team a chance. I have a strong preference for Rodgers, Brees, Mahomes, Wilson, and maybe a few others, but he's an NFL QB1.

I could be wrong, but I thought Mahomes was thought to physically be a top pick but his system and lack of competition made him a late first or second round pick?

[Poet]

This highlights how hard it can be to scout someone.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/patrick-mahomes-a-case-in-the-complexity-of-draft-scouting

This guy had him as a day two prospect, albeit that phrase means little as second round picks are often plausible first rounders, and the second day consists of....the second and third round.

But....this guy or group had him as a first or second round pick. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/patrick-mahomes?id=2558125

This is confirmation bias - but it makes me really think it's more about what you can do for a prospect than the prospect itself.

[Hawgdriver]

I could be wrong, but I thought Mahomes was thought to physically be a top pick but his system and lack of competition made him a late first or second round pick?

In Jan/Feb and into March, he was a 3d round pick on Cooney's tracker. Great arm and performance at the combine helped him the most of all QBs, this is probably when he first became a legit 1st round pick, but even then most of your Walterfootball types still thought that a big reach.

[Poet]

In Jan/Feb and into March, he was a 3d round pick on Cooney's tracker. Great arm and performance at the combine helped him the most of all QBs, this is probably when he first became a legit 1st round pick, but even then most of your Walterfootball types still thought that a big reach.

**** Andy Reid!!!!!!!!

[wayninja]

I don't like flacco, at all, and have never been a proponent of his.... having said that, he's definitely the best QB we've had here since Manning.

[Hawgdriver]

This is confirmation bias - but it makes me really think it's more about what you can do for a prospect than the prospect itself.

Right--it should be the samurai who selects his sword.

[Poet]

Right--it should be the samurai who selects his sword.

I'm watching Afro Samurai right ******* now.

Hawg, god I ******* love you.

[Hawgdriver]

I don't like flacco, at all, and have never been a proponent of his.... having said that, he's definitely the best QB we've had here since Manning.

Yeah, I saw it initially as yet another twenty-million dollar Siemian like the no-neck guy (can't remember his name lol), but he's impressed me just by eyeball test.

I mean, he kinda sucks too, but the least since 2014 Manning. He's better than 2015 Manning, but that's not saying a lot.

Miss you peypey.

[wayninja]

Yeah, I saw it initially as yet another twenty-million dollar Siemian like the no-neck guy (can't remember his name lol), but he's impressed me just by eyeball test.

I mean, he kinda sucks too, but the least since 2014 Manning. He's better than 2015 Manning, but that's not saying a lot.

Miss you peypey.

Which makes it all the more frustrating that either the defense has decided "**** it" or fangio is criminally misusing them or some combination.

[slim]

This highlights how hard it can be to scout someone.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/patrick-mahomes-a-case-in-the-complexity-of-draft-scouting

This guy had him as a day two prospect, albeit that phrase means little as second round picks are often plausible first rounders, and the second day consists of....the second and third round.

But....this guy or group had him as a first or second round pick. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/patrick-mahomes?id=2558125

This is confirmation bias - but it makes me really think it's more about what you can do for a prospect than the prospect itself.

I really feel it's more about desire/work ethic or "heart", as some would call it and organizational fit (as Hawg mentioned in the other thread).

Everyone knows who the talented players are, for the most part. What really separates Mahomes from Paxton or Rosen or Ryan Leaf? This is not a rhetorical question :D

[Poet]

I really feel it's more about desire/work ethic or "heart", as some would call it and organizational fit (as Hawg mentioned in the other thread).

Everyone knows who the talented players are, for the most part. What really separates Mahomes from Paxton or Rosen or Ryan Leaf? This is not a rhetorical question :D

You can work hard as hell, but you can also be undermined to death. David Carr worked hard, was a huge talent, and took more physical abuse in a shorter amount of time than just about anyone. The Browns ran through so many QB's so quickly they couldn't have all been worthless, right? I think so much of IS the player.

I don't know. I'm fat and stupid. Go Broncos.

[Cugel]

BTW Cugel I disagree with your post.



#1 -- you are wrong about Mahomes. He was not obvious first round material. He was 3d round material, a product of Tech's Air Raid. Big numbers that don't translate. It wasn't until a week or two prior to the draft that rumors of Mahomes going late in the 1st round were heard. You are correct that the scout that loved him saw something and knew what he was doing--so if that scout could do it, then so could another observer.

#2 -- The Flacco plan could work and that is not delusional thinking. Saying we need to play Lock this year because winning with Flacco is a pipe dream...sorry...Flacco gives your otherwise solid team a chance. I have a strong preference for Rodgers, Brees, Mahomes, Wilson, and maybe a few others, but he's an NFL QB1.

2008: 14 TDs 12 INTs
2009: 21 TDs 12 INTs
2010: 25 TDs 10 INTs
2011: 20 TDs 12 INTs
2012: 22 TDs 10 INTs
2013: 19 TDs 22 INTs
2014: 27 TDs 12 INTs (this is the season Elway talks about all the time, statistically his best -- five years ago)

2015: 14 TDs 12 INTs in ten games
2016: 20 TDs 15 INTs
2017: 18 TDs 13 INTs
2018: 12 TDs 9 INTs in 9 games before he lost his starting job to a rookie who hadn't learned to throw a forward pass yet.
2019: So far in 3 games 2 TDS 2 INTs.

Outside of Ray Lewis announcing his retirement in 2012 and rallying the Ravens, and Rahim Moore falling down Joe Flacco has been totally mediocre for his entire career. And his last 5 years including 2019 have been below mediocre. In a passing first league where Pat Mahomes is throwing over 50 TDs a season (on pace to break his 1st year record) Flacco is just so far below par that there's no hope in this approach.

But, don't take my word for it. Just watch the season unfold and keep making excuses.

Elways' plan was to win like in 2015. Except the defense is nothing like in 2015, and isn't going to become anything like that all time NFL defense.

Mediocre just ain't going to work.

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by wayninja View Post
I don't like flacco, at all, and have never been a proponent of his.... having said that, he's definitely the best QB we've had here since Manning.


You're right. He's definitely better than Trevor Siemian (did you see the Jets game?)
He's also better than Osweiler who is out of football altogether at 28 years old.
He's also better than Paxton who is currently on the Steelers' practice squad after getting cut by the Seahawks.
He's also better than Case Keenum who threw 3 INTs against the Bears last night.

Is that where we're at in Denver? Satisfied with total mediocrity? "At least he's not as bad as Paxton!" :rolleyes:

[Shazam!]

Quote Originally Posted by wayninja View Post
I don't like flacco, at all, and have never been a proponent of his.... having said that, he's definitely the best QB we've had here since Manning.


You're right. He's definitely better than Trevor Siemian (did you see the Jets game?)
He's also better than Osweiler who is out of football altogether at 28 years old.
He's also better than Paxton who is currently on the Steelers' practice squad after getting cut by the Seahawks.
He's also better than Case Keenum who threw 3 INTs against the Bears last night.

Is that where we're at in Denver? Satisfied with total mediocrity? "At least he's not as bad as Paxton!" :rolleyes:

Gotta see what Locks.got if not.... Herbert?

[wayninja]

You're right. He's definitely better than Trevor Siemian (did you see the Jets game?)
He's also better than Osweiler who is out of football altogether at 28 years old.
He's also better than Paxton who is currently on the Steelers' practice squad after getting cut by the Seahawks.
He's also better than Case Keenum who threw 3 INTs against the Bears last night.

Is that where we're at in Denver? Satisfied with total mediocrity? "At least he's not as bad as Paxton!" :rolleyes:

FFS. I didn't say any of that. Better is better. We aren't talking about a scrub who spectacularly flamed out of the NFL in a few years, we are talking about a franchise vet who has been to, won, and was MVP of a superbowl. That's not something you go get at 7-11.

The point was, that Flacco is no Patrick Mahomes or Deshaun Watson, but he's a helluva lot better than those other scrubs you mentioned. Other than some REALLY poorly timed redzone turnovers, which I would argue is not sustainable, we'd be 1-2 or possibly even 2-1.

He's not this teams biggest issue.

You are making me seem... optimistic. I don't like it.

[Davii]

I think he needs help and cant do it himself anymore.

He's never done it by himself nor does he now. We have a personnel department for a reason

[Hawgdriver]

You're right. He's definitely better than Trevor Siemian (did you see the Jets game?)
He's also better than Osweiler who is out of football altogether at 28 years old.
He's also better than Paxton who is currently on the Steelers' practice squad after getting cut by the Seahawks.
He's also better than Case Keenum who threw 3 INTs against the Bears last night.

Is that where we're at in Denver? Satisfied with total mediocrity? "At least he's not as bad as Paxton!" :rolleyes:

Keenum, that's it! I couldn't remember his name!

[Simple Jaded]

Twice as a GM? He came in, got rid of Tebow, and signed Peyton. That's once. As a player doesn't count since he wasn't GM, Mike Shanahan was.

He built the best offense in history (went to a SB) and then switched gears and built one of the best defenses in history (won the SB).

That’s twice.

[Simple Jaded]

Keenum, that's it! I couldn't remember his name!

*Keesum.

[Poet]

*Keesum.

That's that style!

[WARHORSE]

Anyone who fires Elway is a dummy.

Yeah, I said it.

Replace him with exactly who?



Man people can be reactive.

[MOtorboat]

Anyone who fires Elway is a dummy.

Yeah, I said it.

Replace him with exactly who?



Man people can be reactive.

You replace him with another GM. I know he is the franchise’s greatest player. I have all the feels and the nostalgia, too.

But as a GM, he is not infallible. How many losing years do you endure? This is going to be the third in a row. So is it four? Five?

[Shazam!]

I am very disappointed BUT idk if this Is the way either.

His biggest mistakes IMO were VJ and Fang... We still don't know...

I know if they get hammered at home by Jax omg people will lose it

Even Elway muat remember the 0x4 1994 Season...

[Shazam!]

Also next year a whole lotta long time Broncos are gonna be gone. Harris, Wolfe, Simmons come to mind immediately. Someone gotta fill this Roster.

If I were Elway id hire new scouting and personnell consultants

[Hawgdriver]

Anyone who fires Elway is a dummy.

Yeah, I said it.

Replace him with exactly who?



Man people can be reactive.


You replace him with another GM. I know he is the franchise’s greatest player. I have all the feels and the nostalgia, too.

But as a GM, he is not infallible. How many losing years do you endure? This is going to be the third in a row. So is it four? Five?

Like anything, you need to objectively measure performance and make adjustments when performance is inadequate to the goal or task.

[BroncoWave]

You replace him with another GM. I know he is the franchise’s greatest player. I have all the feels and the nostalgia, too.

But as a GM, he is not infallible. How many losing years do you endure? This is going to be the third in a row. So is it four? Five?

Agreed. I'd give Elway/Fangio 2 years. If we're sitting at the end of next season still a losing team with no signs of improvement, that's two straight head coaches who have failed. At that point, you can't really blame the coaches any more, you have to look at the top.

[wayninja]

Anyone who fires Elway is a dummy.

Yeah, I said it.

Replace him with exactly who?


Isn't it obvious? Peyton Manning.

[slim]

Isn't it obvious? Peyton Manning.

No, the obvious answer is Bubby Brister!

#stupidshanny

[GEM]

There were many opportunity for others to step in and step up. No one did.

We had that player...he now resides in Ram colors.

[Davii]

Isn't it obvious? Peyton Manning.

I wouldn't mind seeing Peyton work in the front office with John for a few years before taking over a team like Lynch did. Maybe even take over from Elway if he wants to hang it up after showing Peyton the ropes.

[Buff]

I wouldn't mind seeing Peyton work in the front office with John for a few years before taking over a team like Lynch did. Maybe even take over from Elway if he wants to hang it up after showing Peyton the ropes.

Peyton will own a team before he is GM.

But I actually think he'll be in the MNF booth next year if Eli retires... Rumors were he was fairly close this year but didn't want to have to call games with his brother in the league.

[Davii]

Peyton will own a team before he is GM.

But I actually think he'll be in the MNF booth next year if Eli retires... Rumors were he was fairly close this year but didn't want to have to call games with his brother in the league.

I could see that, but Archie did specifically say Peyton wants to work in a front office

[Valar Morghulis]

I could see that, but Archie did specifically say Peyton wants to work in a front office

I love how pfm has remained so close to the Broncos. I know some people see him as a colt, but I would love him to get a front office role and one day take over as a successful GM

[Davii]

I love how pfm has remained so close to the Broncos. I know some people see him as a colt, but I would love him to get a front office role and one day take over as a successful GM

He's at a LOT of Bronco games. I wouldn't be in any way surprised to see him in a consultant role like Lynch was to get his feet wet and see where he wants to land.

[Cugel]

Peyton will own a team before he is GM.

But I actually think he'll be in the MNF booth next year if Eli retires... Rumors were he was fairly close this year but didn't want to have to call games with his brother in the league.

Peyton might be part of a syndicate that buys a team but he would need 15 times as much money as he has to buy a team. Peyton Manning Net Worth= $ (https://wealthygorilla.com/richest-nfl-players/)200m.

[Hawgdriver]

It feels like Elway won the Manning lottery and has been a trust fund kid ever since.

[MOtorboat]

It feels like Elway won the Manning lottery and has been a trust fund kid ever since.

The free agent class the following year was brilliant, but it was also a group of vets searching for a ring. We don’t have that to offer anymore. So, in general, I agree with your assessment.

[Hawgdriver]

The free agent class the following year was brilliant, but it was also a group of vets searching for a ring. We don’t have that to offer anymore. So, in general, I agree with your assessment.

Elite attracts elite!

https://usatbroncoswire.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/usatsi_9117471-cropped.jpg?w=1000&h=600&crop=1

[Poet]

Look at how much Talib loves Manning.

[Valar Morghulis]

Elite attracts elite!

https://usatbroncoswire.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/usatsi_9117471-cropped.jpg?w=1000&h=600&crop=1
That looks like an old noah fant over pfm shoulder. Do you think fant is a time traveler? Uncle Rico style?

[Cugel]

The punishment for John Elway for assembling this crappy team and hiring crappy coaches should be that they take the Blucifer statue from the airport and set it up right outside John Elway's office so that every time he looks out the window, he sees Blucifer glaring at him with those demon eyes!

15067

[wayninja]

The punishment for John Elway for assembling this crappy team and hiring crappy coaches should be that they take the Blucifer statue from the airport and set it up right outside John Elway's office so that every time he looks out the window, he sees Blucifer glaring at him with those demon eyes!

15067

We have differing definitions as to what would constitute effective and even creative punishment.

[VonDoom]

Good piece here, saying a lot of stuff we’ve been saying. Will Elway admit defeat and actually rebuild?

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2856295-by-accepting-the-mess-he-created-in-denver-john-elway-may-find-a-way-to-fix-it.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true

[Hawgdriver]

Good piece here, saying a lot of stuff we’ve been saying. Will Elway admit defeat and actually rebuild?

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2856295-by-accepting-the-mess-he-created-in-denver-john-elway-may-find-a-way-to-fix-it.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true


This year's 0-4 Broncos are not very different from last year's 6-10 Broncos, which were a lot like 2017's 5-11 Broncos, who were a version of 2016's 9-7 Broncos that were left out of the refrigerator overnight, and all of them were just straight-to-video sequels of the 2015 Super Bowl Broncos.

:laugh: :lol: :ahhhhh:

[Simple Jaded]

Good piece here, saying a lot of stuff we’ve been saying. Will Elway admit defeat and actually rebuild?

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2856295-by-accepting-the-mess-he-created-in-denver-john-elway-may-find-a-way-to-fix-it.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true
Tanier is Excellent.

[VonDoom]

Tanier is Excellent.

Yeah he’s one of my favorite football writers

[Cugel]

This article is right. Elway has been resisting the word "rebuilding" like a toddler refusing to acknowledge it's bed-time, but after this craptastic season of suck he will have no choice.

Joe Flacco is playing better than expected, and the team is still finding ways to lose every game. What else is there to lose when you're 0-4 or soon, 1-7? 3-13?

Chris Harris, Emannuel Sanders, Derek Wolfe, Demarcus Walker, and a bunch of other guys are on expiring contracts. See what you can get for them before the trade deadline passes. Then let's see what we have in Drew Lock.

Because if Denver is assured of getting a top 5 pick next season then they must draft one of the top 3 QB prospects; Tua, Fromm or Herbert. And then rebuild from there.

If Lock shows some promise you have two young QB prospects. If Fromm or Herbert turns out to be great then you can move Lock for a 2nd round pick like the Patriots did with Garappolo. If not, then move to Lock.

Either way, the Broncos must have a QB next season NOT named JOe Flacco! :tsk: