The schematic problems on the defense

[MOtorboat]

I’m frustrated with the defensive scheme. It’s vanilla. It sucks. Why I tortured myself doing this, I don’t know. But before you is me venting my nerdy ass frustrations.

The Broncos base defense is going to be a 2–4-5 nickel or a 2-3-6 dime. That’s pretty common now, especially against teams like the Bears (and later the Chiefs) who are in primarily shotgun formation with 11 or 12 personnel.

The problem pass rush wise is Denver’s outside linebackers are getting chipped, double teamed and pushed wide. That still leaves three blockers on two inside and Wolfe and Harris are just frankly not good enough to get pressure in that situation. The problem is, they’re just not making many adjustments with the two key players, Miller and Chubb.

The problem coverage wise is pretty easy. Corners are just way out of the play, unless it’s a medium to deep pass.

For example:

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Easy throw and catch for a quarterback who isn’t particularly accurate (in NFL terms).

Interestingly enough, the Broncos went to essentially a 3-3-5 that is basically a 5-1-5 on the second drive for about half the plays. It’s an interesting concept and basically takes away the running game. It also helps with contain and the outside quick throws Trubisky was hitting early.

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Obviously, in third and long they move away from it, but the problem as I see it is that they don’t show anything exotic on third and long. They go straight to the base nickel against 11 and 21 personnel, which the Bears use almost exclusively anyway.

On the key play of that long second drive when the Broncos got into third and long and Yiadom missed the tackle that was basically the difference between a field goal and a punt, the Broncos rushed just three and Miller’s job was to shadow Cohen out of the backfield. The Bears flooded that zone, with the corners still playing 10 yards off. That forces a natural pass rusher to make a coverage decision. He, probably correctly, chooses Cohen, and not the tight end. The tight end, with no one in the flat gets Yiadom not in tight coverage one on one for the first down. There are just too many problems with this. It’s just way too passive.

The one time the Broncos brought any semblance of pressure in the first two drives was a second and long around the 35 yard line. The Bears had an inside screen on and the pressure was beat quite quickly.

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Inexplicably, though, it’s a zone blitz with Chubb dropping into coverage. At least he’s in a place to not allow that inside screen to get a first down, and ultimately a good run stop on third down forces a field goal. But, that’s the first time, we’ve gone an entire quarter and a few minutes, and that’s the first pass rushing adjustment they’ve made. Why? Roughly 10-15 pass plays, no outside pass rush to speak of, and that’s after a week where Denver’s two really good (Von is great) pass rushers were just rendered useless.

Off to watch the rest of the half and the second, surely, they’ll make some adjustments, right?

[MOtorboat]

Circled in blue is Bradley Chubb.

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You think that’s a zone?

:tsk:

[MOtorboat]

First play of the fourth drive.

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No formational adjustments.

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It’s a screen.

Andy Reid is going to eat this alive. My goodness.

[MOtorboat]

Second half. Surely they’ve made some adjustments.

Nope.

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Five man front, Miller in coverage, Chubb way too wide to make a play, no push up front, corners playing off. Cool.

[MOtorboat]

OMG, a stunt! Only took two quarters.

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[MOtorboat]

So it wasn’t the direct game plan correlation I thought, but the big play in the game was the Cordarrelle Patterson sweep. I think playing the corners off contributed to this.

In the first half they run a jet sweep and only Miller is in the flat. They don’t execute perfectly, but it shows that sweep is there.

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Corners playing off, space in the flat and they get the numbers to block for the big play later in the game.

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[MOtorboat]

OMG, a stunt! Only took two quarters.

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Pretty sure this is the only stunt they ran the entire game. I’m not even sure it was called from the sideline. Just vanilla nothing defense. It’s just bad.

Move Von and Chubb around, vary up fronts. Run some stunts. Shit, do what the Chargers do and line up Chubb and Miller on the same tackle and make that tackle shit himself.

Defensively, these two games have been very frustrating. The offense clearly blows, so they better start doing something interesting defensively, or it’s going to be a really long season, not just a long one.

Next up. I torture myself and watch every Garrett Bolles play! (Just kidding, probably not)

[Shazam!]

I like this thread thanks for the work.

I felt the Defense was called like a preseason game.

Not enough pressure and not nearly enough blitzes to be effective.

[Elevation inc]

This is my main issue and I hope its just a matter of Vic being a first time HC, with Donatell as the DC and they are working the kinks out. It drives me nuts to watch such a vanilla defense, then when we do pressure its not with von and chubb consistently until the last few plays of the game. I feel like were still doing pre-season offense and defense play calling, they Prob should have gotten this worked out then not in weeks 1 and 2.

Good work MO!

[Ziggy]

The biggest surprise for me with this defense is that he's leaving our slow, muddling ILBers on the field on passing downs. This is where the adjustment needs to start IMO. Josey Jewell is watching backs and TEs run past him without a prayer of catching up. He played every defensive snap in the first game. When the Broncos didn't bring in ILBer help, I assumed that Fangio would make adjustments to cover up that Achilles heel. It hasn't happened. Now you have Wolfe whining and crying about how fast the ball is getting out of the QBs hands. It's because the middle of the field is wide open!

Bring an extra safety in and play them in the box. Go with 6 dbs. Blitz the ILBers and make the QB uncomfortable in the pocket. Do something!

I'm not by any means giving up on Fangio and this defense, but adjustments need to be made or the Broncos are going to be picking top 5 in the draft again.

[Buff]

This bend-but-don't-break, passive, hope-the-offense-makes-a-mistake, Bob Slowick-style defense is miserable to watch. Absolutely miserable. It's the equivalent of John Fox ball on defense - uber conservative.

Between that and our bottom-5 scoring offense - apathy has set in much earlier than I expected.

Watching Fangio walk around in his frumpy sweathshirt and fanny pack with zero emotion - while watching totally stale and boring football on both sides of the ball -- is already 100x worse than I imagined this season being. It's killed all the excitement I had for this team and this season.

At least the Cardinals can get excited about something with a young coach, a young QB and a dynamic system -- we're moving in the wrong direction everywhere.

[tomjonesrocks]

This bend-but-don't-break, passive, hope-the-offense-makes-a-mistake, Bob Slowick-style defense is miserable to watch. Absolutely miserable. It's the equivalent of John Fox ball on defense - uber conservative.

Between that and our bottom-5 scoring offense - apathy has set in much earlier than I expected.

Watching Fangio walk around in his frumpy sweathshirt and fanny pack with zero emotion - while watching totally stale and boring football on both sides of the ball -- is already 100x worse than I imagined this season being. It's killed all the excitement I had for this team and this season.

At least the Cardinals can get excited about something with a young coach, a young QB and a dynamic system -- we're moving in the wrong direction everywhere.

Agreed. I was prepared for a poor product on the offensive side of the ball. But Fangio was advertised as a defensive mastermind that disguises coverages brilliantly and gets the most out of his talent.

What we’ve seen thusfar is not only terrible it’s terribly boring.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

From Von after the game: “I feel like if I could do my job and get him on the ground, it wouldn’t have even been there,” Von Miller said. “It’s a double loss for me. Tough day.”

Above from https://www.denverbroncos.com/news/e...-second-defeat

Very interesting in Von saying I feel like IF I could do my job. We all know what Von is capable of doing, so was Von saying that he can not do his job because of the defensive scheme?

[Poet]

Fangio might be overwhelmed with first time coaching duties and play calling duties.

[Elevation inc]

Fangio might be overwhelmed with first time coaching duties and play calling duties.

I feel like him and Scags both are overwhelmed right now. They have the IQ and knowledge to turn it around. Lets hope for the best. I am angry but being objective I know this is new for both if them and it may just take some time. If Harris is right and the mindset is better after these losses then last year maybe there is hope. We started 2-0 last year, look where that got us.....I have always said week 4 is the best indicator of where your headed. But even then teams can surprise in the middle and down the stretch run....

[Simple Jaded]

MO got skills.

[slim]

MO got skills.

MO is the best of us.

[Valar Morghulis]

A lot of work went into this thread.

I applaud.

[BroncoJoe]

A lot of work went into this thread.

I applaud.

MO is the best.

[Valar Morghulis]

MO is the best.

You da best

[Hawgdriver]

MO!

I need an updated take on Fangio's 'Bend and then Break' defense that gives up the ass to JAX.

Or is it still pretty much exactly what we've seen the first three games without any wrinkles?

[MOtorboat]

MO!

I need an updated take on Fangio's 'Bend and then Break' defense that gives up the ass to JAX.

Or is it still pretty much exactly what we've seen the first three games without any wrinkles?

To be honest, I don’t really feel like watching the All-22, but maybe when it’s available Tuesday. I didn’t see too much off hand. They’ve pretty much prescribed to that five man front and playing corners off. They blitzed a couple times, mostly in predictable spots and got beat. Corners still play off, which is apparently a staple of his “attacking” defense. I’m baffled at his rep as a defensive guru. I really am. I do wonder about the talent at DT and MLB, and wonder if that’s the key to the scheme? I don’t know. It sucks.

[Hawgdriver]

To be honest, I don’t really feel like watching the All-22, but maybe when it’s available Tuesday. I didn’t see too much off hand. They’ve pretty much prescribed to that five man front and playing corners off. They blitzed a couple times, mostly in predictable spots and got beat. Corners still play off, which is apparently a staple of his “attacking” defense. I’m baffled at his rep as a defensive guru. I really am. I do wonder about the talent at DT and MLB, and wonder if that’s the key to the scheme? I don’t know. It sucks.

I wonder if 'special' MLB is some magical key ingredient to his defense. The two years he's had elite results as a DC could be attributed to personnel rather than scheme:

2011, SFO, Overall defense 2d in points, 4th in yards, 1st in takeaways. Key players - N. Bowman, P. Willis, J. Smith, A. Smith, D. Goldson. 1st year as DC with J. Harbs as HC taking over from Singletary.
2012, SFO, Overall ranks about the same, fewer takeaways. Same personnel.
2013, SFO, same ranks (approx) same personnel, except Reid in at FS instead of D. Goldson.
2014--SFO, some regression, 10th in points, 5th in yards, lost Bowman and Willis + Aldon Smith both only played 6 games

Testing out the hypothesis of personnel dependence: let's look at the jump between 2017 CHI and 2018 CHI. Big jump in defensive statistical rankings. 2017-->#10 defense, 2018-->#1 defense.

2017 personnel: this is weird because they only had 3(!) sixteen-game starters on defense--Kyle Fuller (CB), Eddie Jackson (S), and Akiem Hicks (DE). Holy crap did you know Hicks is listed at 352# DE? Two others who played 12 games: Prince Amuka and Danny T.

Anyhoo...

2018 personnel:

Roquan Smith, rookie, plays 16 games and leads team in tackles. 5 sacks and some PD's too. Not bad.
Danny T plays all 16 games.
Hicks, Jackson, and Fuller play all 16 again this year, with two of them getting All Pro nods and all 3 making the pro bowl (none made a pro bowl the previous year)
The obvious big addition was K. Mack.

So no key ingredient departed after 2017, but they added Roquan Smith and Khalil Mack. In addition, they got 14-16 games from all their key defensive starters, unlike 2017.

In conclusion...he's had his best years when his off-the-line LBs are great against the run but are also great in coverage...

I think he needs his Bowman/Willis or his Roquan/Trevathan for the magic to happen.

[Nomad]

So....Broncos should of went with Devin Bush?

[Hawgdriver]

So....Broncos should of went with Devin Bush?

Was Mosley never an option? Looking at some FA misses, it feels like we should have Mosley, Whitworth, and Calais Campbell on the roster...and maybe we could have.

[Hawgdriver]

Or is my salary cap math way off?

How has Bush done so far for Pitt?

[Nomad]

Was Mosley never an option? Looking at some FA misses, it feels like we should have Mosley, Whitworth, and Calais Campbell on the roster...and maybe we could have.

Not sure. I was high on a MLB this past draft. Time will tell if it all works out with how the 2019 draft went.

[Poet]

Was Mosley never an option? Looking at some FA misses, it feels like we should have Mosley, Whitworth, and Calais Campbell on the roster...and maybe we could have.

Mosley is so overpaid he's no longer an asset to a team. Campbell might not have signed because of the tax in Florida, or lack thereof, but he might have if Elway matched Jaguars...it was two million more or so a year...we rolled over Ward's salary that season. Whitworth continues to be a top three, at worst LT, in football and the fact we missed on him is what hurts the most. And no, not just because he was my favorite player on another team...look at his contract and production. GDI.

Campbell would have been worth a win, and we needed just one more to hit the playoffs with Kubes last ride. If he was on the team now our D-Line pressure would be brutal, and he's a hoss against the run. Missing on him via lowballing him was not on-brand for Elway.

[Hawgdriver]

Not sure. I was high on a MLB this past draft. Time will tell if it all works out with how the 2019 draft went.

I remember D. White was big on your radar and I was cool with that...he's a Buc now?

Found this about D. Bush:


Pittsburgh Steelers rookie Devin Bush is showing why the team drafted him No. 10 overall.

The linebacker had another big game Sunday, recovering two fumbles and finishing with a team-high 11 tackles in a 24-20 loss to the San Francisco 49ers.

Bush leads 0-3 Pittsburgh with 40 tackles through three games.

Getting gashed for however many rushing yards tells me that we are soft up the middle, personnel wise.

[Hawgdriver]

Mosley is so overpaid he's no longer an asset to a team. Campbell might not have signed because of the tax in Florida, or lack thereof, but he might have if Elway matched Jaguars...it was two million more or so a year...we rolled over Ward's salary that season. Whitworth continues to be a top three, at worst LT, in football and the fact we missed on him is what hurts the most. And no, not just because he was my favorite player on another team...look at his contract and production. GDI.

Campbell would have been worth a win, and we needed just one more to hit the playoffs with Kubes last ride. If he was on the team now our D-Line pressure would be brutal, and he's a hoss against the run. Missing on him via lowballing him was not on-brand for Elway.

Mosley might be a money vacuum for the JEST, but I dare you to add up Menelik + Stephenson + Cravens + Ju'wan + Bryce...and say we have done better by avoiding that contract.

[Hawgdriver]

Not sure. I was high on a MLB this past draft. Time will tell if it all works out with how the 2019 draft went.

Fant at 20 seemed like an OK pick, but so far not looking great. But we'll see. OJ Howard was a lock and he's been an NFL zero just about.

I'm ok with missing on a stud MLB if Lock is the real deal...I mean...duh.

I like what Elway did, just hope that Fant is a 16 game starter of average to above average value...and Lock is an NFL QB1.

[Poet]

Mosley might be a money vacuum for the JEST, but I dare you to add up Menelik + Stephenson + Cravens + Ju'wan + Bryce...and say we have done better by avoiding that contract.

We have not done better. Because Mosley is a good consistent player, and Menelik was awful, Stephenson was not a solution, Cravens should be good and was good for an eight game stretch as a rookie...Bryce was and has been good and that one hurts the most, ironically.

I guess if we were to have a money dump on a good player he'd be the one I want least out of Campbell and Whitworth, as both of those guys should end up in Canton.

[Poet]

Fant at 20 seemed like an OK pick, but so far not looking great. But we'll see. OJ Howard was a lock and he's been an NFL zero just about.

I'm ok with missing on a stud MLB if Lock is the real deal...I mean...duh.

I like what Elway did, just hope that Fant is a 16 game starter of average to above average value...and Lock is an NFL QB1.

I like Fant, tbh. He's made rookie mistakes...it just so happens the rest of his team plays like a rookie. I think we're harder on Fant than we should be and take out our frustrations on him...even though he's not responsible for Butt, IRman, etc. all sucking.

[Poet]

Our roster is so flawed Hawg just talked me into overpaying a MLB who is only average at coverage...and we're a team that has no good coverage backers.

Holy ****.

[Nomad]

So what can the Broncos do to be better with the personnel they have on defense?

[Poet]

So what can the Broncos do to be better with the personnel they have on defense?

Fangio in his pressers comes off as deferential and too chummy to the players. He has to hold their feet to the fire. He also has to stop calling defensive plays like he's scared.

[Hawgdriver]

So what can the Broncos do to be better with the personnel they have on defense?

Idk man. Everyone says play press and bring more pressure. It worked with Wade, right? Bausby ain't Talib tho. Plus we had Danny T. You could say Simmons + Jackson ≅ Ward + Stewart, but we have no coverage LB and that seems to have been the biggest problem every year since 2015.

I have no idea, but it feels like we need to take some risks to be disruptive--we are getting ground into powder by the end of these games on defense and we have too many playmakers who aren't causing massive disruption. It feels like we need a more aggressive, turnover-generating, but explosive-play allowing, type of defense.

But that just feels wrong to even say. So idk.

[Hawgdriver]

So what can the Broncos do to be better with the personnel they have on defense?

What are your thoughts?

[Simple Jaded]

I wonder if 'special' MLB is some magical key ingredient to his defense. The two years he's had elite results as a DC could be attributed to personnel rather than scheme:

2011, SFO, Overall defense 2d in points, 4th in yards, 1st in takeaways. Key players - N. Bowman, P. Willis, J. Smith, A. Smith, D. Goldson. 1st year as DC with J. Harbs as HC taking over from Singletary.
2012, SFO, Overall ranks about the same, fewer takeaways. Same personnel.
2013, SFO, same ranks (approx) same personnel, except Reid in at FS instead of D. Goldson.
2014--SFO, some regression, 10th in points, 5th in yards, lost Bowman and Willis + Aldon Smith both only played 6 games

Testing out the hypothesis of personnel dependence: let's look at the jump between 2017 CHI and 2018 CHI. Big jump in defensive statistical rankings. 2017-->#10 defense, 2018-->#1 defense.

2017 personnel: this is weird because they only had 3(!) sixteen-game starters on defense--Kyle Fuller (CB), Eddie Jackson (S), and Akiem Hicks (DE). Holy crap did you know Hicks is listed at 352# DE? Two others who played 12 games: Prince Amuka and Danny T.

Anyhoo...

2018 personnel:

Roquan Smith, rookie, plays 16 games and leads team in tackles. 5 sacks and some PD's too. Not bad.
Danny T plays all 16 games.
Hicks, Jackson, and Fuller play all 16 again this year, with two of them getting All Pro nods and all 3 making the pro bowl (none made a pro bowl the previous year)
The obvious big addition was K. Mack.

So no key ingredient departed after 2017, but they added Roquan Smith and Khalil Mack. In addition, they got 14-16 games from all their key defensive starters, unlike 2017.

In conclusion...he's had his best years when his off-the-line LBs are great against the run but are also great in coverage...

I think he needs his Bowman/Willis or his Roquan/Trevathan for the magic to happen.
Josey Davis aren’t even good against the run, they could replace both with better coverage ILB’s and you wouldn’t miss much in run defense.

There are players on PS’s around the league that are better than Denver’s ILB’s.

As for DT’s, Ryan Harris says Fangio has his DL 2-gapping, he doesn’t have a starting 2-gap NT on the roster. And again, there’s plenty of those on teams PS’s.

[Simple Jaded]

MO you should go back and break down a Fangio game from last year, I just watched the Wildcard game vs Eagles and he let Amukamara play tight all game long.

[Hawgdriver]

Fant at 20 seemed like an OK pick, but so far not looking great. But we'll see. OJ Howard was a lock and he's been an NFL zero just about.

I'm ok with missing on a stud MLB if Lock is the real deal...I mean...duh.

I like what Elway did, just hope that Fant is a 16 game starter of average to above average value...and Lock is an NFL QB1.

Bad fan disclaimer: This was before I saw the Fant TD.

[Elevation inc]

Bad fan disclaimer: This was before I saw the Fant TD.

Fant is a young TE learning he is having ups and downs just like Hockenson. FYI Bush has yet to have a good graded game in Pittsburgh btw. I think we will be fine if Lock ends up being good. But for that to happen we have to get serious about turning over the players on this team and rebuilding.

[Tangerine]

I wonder if 'special' MLB is some magical key ingredient to his defense. The two years he's had elite results as a DC could be attributed to personnel rather than scheme:

2011, SFO, Overall defense 2d in points, 4th in yards, 1st in takeaways. Key players - N. Bowman, P. Willis, J. Smith, A. Smith, D. Goldson. 1st year as DC with J. Harbs as HC taking over from Singletary.
2012, SFO, Overall ranks about the same, fewer takeaways. Same personnel.
2013, SFO, same ranks (approx) same personnel, except Reid in at FS instead of D. Goldson.
2014--SFO, some regression, 10th in points, 5th in yards, lost Bowman and Willis + Aldon Smith both only played 6 games

Testing out the hypothesis of personnel dependence: let's look at the jump between 2017 CHI and 2018 CHI. Big jump in defensive statistical rankings. 2017-->#10 defense, 2018-->#1 defense.

2017 personnel: this is weird because they only had 3(!) sixteen-game starters on defense--Kyle Fuller (CB), Eddie Jackson (S), and Akiem Hicks (DE). Holy crap did you know Hicks is listed at 352# DE? Two others who played 12 games: Prince Amuka and Danny T.

Anyhoo...

2018 personnel:

Roquan Smith, rookie, plays 16 games and leads team in tackles. 5 sacks and some PD's too. Not bad.
Danny T plays all 16 games.
Hicks, Jackson, and Fuller play all 16 again this year, with two of them getting All Pro nods and all 3 making the pro bowl (none made a pro bowl the previous year)
The obvious big addition was K. Mack.

So no key ingredient departed after 2017, but they added Roquan Smith and Khalil Mack. In addition, they got 14-16 games from all their key defensive starters, unlike 2017.

In conclusion...he's had his best years when his off-the-line LBs are great against the run but are also great in coverage...

I think he needs his Bowman/Willis or his Roquan/Trevathan for the magic to happen.

Could it be that it was simply defenses loaded with talent that won despite Fangio? Like any warm body could’ve been the DC on some of those teams and they still would’ve been a top unit. Fangio has been part of some pretty terrible defenses as well. Is he a mastermind? Or a guy who was simply along for the ride?

[Hawgdriver]

Could it be that it was simply defenses loaded with talent that won despite Fangio? Like any warm body could’ve been the DC on some of those teams and they still would’ve been a top unit.

I don't think so. When he arrived in SFO he inherited the same personnel Tomsula/Singletary/Manusky had. Singletary/Manusky's group was a middle of the pack defense in 2010. I guess 2009 is relevant, too--they were a top 10 defense, maybe top 5.

Anyway, in 2010 Manusky had: Willis, Spikes, Clements, Goldson, Justin Smith, Bowman, Brooks
2011 Fangio had: Willis, Bowman, Goldson, Brooks, Justin Smith, Whitner, Rogers, Aldon Smith

Maybe you are right. He gets Donte Whitner, Aldon Smith, and Jim Harbaugh gives the team a stiff rudder. Maybe less a case of Fangio executing a fix and flip and more a case of getting out of the way of talented players.

[Hawgdriver]

Is he a mastermind? Or a guy who was simply along for the ride?

Hey, I'll say this though. Sometimes being along for the ride is something a mastermind does...Wade was part spectator because he had the players that could handle their business as long as they were put in the right position and then left alone.

[MOtorboat]

MO you should go back and break down a Fangio game from last year, I just watched the Wildcard game vs Eagles and he let Amukamara play tight all game long.

Oh cool.