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View Full Version : Tom Nalen on Losing Matt Paradis and on Garrett Bolles' Play!



Cugel
03-15-2019, 02:01 PM
Ring of Famer Tom "Nails" Nalen doesn't mince any words about what he thinks about the Broncos recent OL moves in this very candid interview. Nalen was a serious bad-ass on the field, and he doesn't pull any punches about the current Broncos OL. I don't know that I 100% agree with him, but it is an interesting take from the greatest center in Broncos history:


Nalen (http://1043thefan.com/category/podcast_player/?a=10025852&sid=1159&n=The+Drive): "Matt Paradis. I'm actually pissed about that! I just spent the last hour watching week 17 Broncos - Chargers tape.

So, I'm thinking, 'what are they seeing?' Because John Elway said that they're comfortable with Connor McGovern playing center. I'm not sure what he's watching. I gave the benefit of the doubt to Connor McGovern. I didn't want to watch the TExans game because that's the game Matt Paradis got hurt, and I knew McGovern wouldn't be ready. Give me week 17, when guys are trying to make the team, they know the coach is getting fired, San Diego isn't really playing hard either.

But, he doesn't look like a center. Six week later he still doesn't move like a center. And we've got the general manager saying 'we're comfortable with Connor McGovern playing center.'

So, now you're creating two weaknesses. Connor McGovern is a right guard. So, 'let's move a guard to center and find someone else to play guard.' So, why not pay Paradis to play center?

You're just shifting chairs on the Titanic here!

Q: "You know they low-balled Paradis, big-time?"

Nalen: "Yeah! And they used the injury as the reason for it. They offered him a similar deal in July and he rejected it.

And then we learn they were looking at Morris, the Chiefs center. Why the hell would you be looking at a Chiefs guy instead of paying your own guy? You should be dealing with him first!

Q: "Devil's advocate here: He's been injured, with double hip surgery, and the broken leg, they don't think he'll be the same player any more."

Nalen: "I didn't see any drop-off from the hip surgery. And the broken leg? Meh. You come back from that. Sometimes, like Chris Kuper not. But, you were still offering him $9m dollars! So, which is it?

Q: "So your problem is really with Connor McGovern?"

Nalen: "Plus, I watched week 17 Garrett Bolles. And I'm kinda anti-Bolles. I saw a sequence of three plays in a row. One - holding got a running TD called back. And you can see him after the play chirping at someone on the Chargers. Next play, Joey Bosa gives him the business. And for some reason Bolles, with the umpire 3 feet away just throws Bosa to the ground. Another holding penalty. On the third play, he did not get called for holding out of pity. I swear to God, the umpire is like 'I cannot do this to the kid. I don't want to see him cry.' But, he held SOO bad on the third play in a row. Man, what can I saw. He's just terrible.

He's got a clock on him. He's got a 3 second clock. He's good for 3 seconds and then he just stops. It's hard to question OL effort because they're usually just trying to hang on for dear life. But, that dude? He's soft, doesn't play hard, holds, his hands [use of hands] are terrible.

Connor McGovern is terrible up on the second level too, getting on LBs. He's a guard. He should be the guard. Paradis should be the center - for $9m a year. They offered him 1 year at $9m a year. Carolina is giving him $9m a year for 3 years - $27m.

I don't understand it! 'We're comfortable with Connor McGovern?'"

Q: "They were trying to get Billy Turner done first. That was the plan, and then get to Paradis done. [But, they didn't get either done, and both are gone.] Some guys they don't even make an offer at all. Brandon Marshall gone, Bradley Roby done. NO offer."

Nalen: "So Billy Turner was the domino. Once he decided to cut off negotiations, because they were low-balling him, that ended the negotiations for Paradis? But, they treat outsiders better than their own players!"

Q: "That's what happens when you screw up your own negotiations for your players, you end up overpaying [for other teams' players]."

Nalen: "Did you see Jawan James' contract? It's big! $31m guaranteed? It is a big 4 year commitment. It's a marriage. It's a 4 year commitment. Lane Johnson is below him in salary right now and Lane Johnson is a damn good RT."

Q: "OK, not to be too negative here, Bolles is. . . .?"

Nalen: "Terrible."

Q: "Ron Leary is. . . .?"

Nalen: "Good, as a football player. He's a good G, I'm not saying he's great. But, we don't know what he is after the Achilles. We'll find out that in October or whenever he comes back. But, he's a good player if he's healthy."

Q: "McGovern. . . .? "

Nalen: "Put him back at guard! Find a center now! Go draft a rookie, second round. Find some dude."

Q: "Do you think McGovern is a better G than Elijah WIlkinson?"

Nalen: "Yes. He's a tackle. He could be that swing tackle who Billy Turner was. And there's value in that with how the roster is constructed."

Pretty good talk all around. I suppose we're hoping that Mike Munchak can reach Bolles and get him to play like a good LT. Or else they have to draft his replacement at #10. But, it's not adequate right now.

Right now the prospective OL lineup is a disaster and Joe Flacco is immobile. IT's not a good combo. Hopefully, this improves as FA and the draft continues.

chazoe60
03-15-2019, 02:05 PM
Garrett Bolles is ******* terrible. Probably my least favorite player on the team right now.

Simple Jaded
03-15-2019, 02:22 PM
Yeah ... well ... bye Felicia.

The OL got better without Paradis, Bolles included.

They found their last stiff C in the 6th round, Find him again.

chazoe60
03-15-2019, 02:23 PM
Yeah ... well ... bye Felicia.

The OL got better without Paradis, Bolles included.

You're take on Paradis is so lame. You're just wrong.

Simple Jaded
03-15-2019, 02:24 PM
You're take on Paradis is so lame. You're just wrong.

Am I? Oh well.

Dude is not $8 M better than any starting C in the league, don’t care enough to argue.

Btw, * your.

BroncoJoe
03-15-2019, 02:31 PM
Am I? Oh well.

Dude is not $8 M better than any starting C in the league, don’t care enough to argue.

Btw, * your.

Actually, you're was correct in that instance...

chazoe60
03-15-2019, 02:32 PM
My bad.

chazoe60
03-15-2019, 02:33 PM
Actually, you're was correct in that instance...

I screwed up the first "you're". First mistake I've made in about 5 years.

BroncoJoe
03-15-2019, 02:39 PM
I screwed up the first "you're". First mistake I've made in about 5 years.

You're right. I missed that one.

Simple Jaded
03-15-2019, 02:40 PM
FWIW, Nalen is the guy that said Joey Bosa was a bust waiting to happen, I love Nalen and wish he’d go back with Kreckman, but it feels like he’s viewing this one personally.

Simple Jaded
03-15-2019, 02:42 PM
If the Broncos run more ZBS then McGovern’s 2nd level deficiency will be a bigger issue, but that’s true for Leary and Thomas too. Basically any OL they have outside of Bolles and the stiff from ASU.

Cugel
03-15-2019, 03:03 PM
Am I? Oh well.

Dude is not $8 M better than any starting C in the league, don’t care enough to argue.

Btw, * your.

You just saw the greatest Broncos center in their history say you're wrong, that Paradis is a good center well worth the $9m a year he's getting, and all you've got is "$#$#**@!"? :laugh:

Well, I got a good laugh which is probably the best thing that's going to happen to me this afternoon, so kudos!

Buff
03-15-2019, 03:09 PM
Jaded and I have been hating on Paradis for years... Lest anyone think that it's just sour grapes that he's gone.

We can deploy that $9 mil more effectively elsewhere. Guy has anchored a terrible o-line for years - I'll take my chances with someone else.

BroncoJoe
03-15-2019, 03:12 PM
You just saw the greatest Broncos center in their history say you're wrong, that Paradis is a good center well worth the $9m a year he's getting, and all you've got is "$#$#**@!"? :laugh:

Well, I got a good laugh which is probably the best thing that's going to happen to me this afternoon, so kudos!

Well, you bang on Elway, who is the greatest Broncos QB in their history for not being able to find a good QB.

Simple Jaded
03-15-2019, 03:20 PM
You just saw the greatest Broncos center in their history say you're wrong, that Paradis is a good center well worth the $9m a year he's getting, and all you've got is "$#$#**@!"? :laugh:

Well, I got a good laugh which is probably the best thing that's going to happen to me this afternoon, so kudos!

You’re welcome, so glad I could finally return the favor.

Simple Jaded
03-15-2019, 03:26 PM
Riddle me this Joker; if Nalen is so sure that Paradis “is well worth the money he’s getting” then why isn’t the team that signed him?

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/matt-paradis-14618/

Paradis deal includes two “dummy years” and a potential buyout after two seasons. His first season is for approximately $4 M, that’s right where I’d pay a player like him and a position like C.

elsid13
03-15-2019, 04:07 PM
So both Nalen and Stink have said McGroven isn't a good center. What is the front office seeing that makes them think differently. Maybe its dollars

Simple Jaded
03-15-2019, 04:23 PM
Dalton Risner, 2nd round, can play RT/G/C.

Timmy!
03-15-2019, 05:35 PM
Uummmm.....the entire team kinda didn't give a **** in week 17, not sure that's the game tape to really be basing judgement on there Tom.

Shazam!
03-15-2019, 05:39 PM
...but they were the 13th best Line in the League!

Traveler
03-15-2019, 05:47 PM
At the press conference today, someone asked if McGovern is the Center. The answer was he is "right now." Last time they used the "right now" phrase was with Keenum. Guess the writing is on the wall that McGovern will be moved back to his natural spot at RT as soon as they sign or draft their new Center.

MOtorboat
03-15-2019, 06:12 PM
You're take on Paradis is so lame. You're just wrong.


Am I? Oh well.

Dude is not $8 M better than any starting C in the league, don’t care enough to argue.

Btw, * your.


Actually, you're was correct in that instance...


I screwed up the first "you're". First mistake I've made in about 5 years.

I can’t even...

MOtorboat
03-15-2019, 06:19 PM
So both Nalen and Stink have said McGroven isn't a good center. What is the front office seeing that makes them think differently. Maybe its dollars

What it, and I’m just spit-balling here, Nalen and Schlereth are wrong?

elsid13
03-15-2019, 06:38 PM
What it, and I’m just spit-balling here, Nalen and Schlereth are wrong?

maybe, but unlike us they actually know what they are looking at. Tyler Polumbus also said something similar.

DenBronx
03-15-2019, 06:47 PM
Elway said they were concerned with Paradis ankle. Could they know something we don’t? That injury looked pretty gross.

Good interview by Nalen. I heard it live yesterday.

Simple Jaded
03-15-2019, 06:49 PM
Legwold said on the radio that the ankle was broke in multiple places and he had ligament damage.

nevcraw
03-15-2019, 08:32 PM
Can’t help believe Nalen knows what he’s seeing / talking about. He’s also probs cool personally with Matt P.
One thing for sure is munchak’s Lines need to be athletic and move into the second level. So McGovern as a center or guard needs to lock it up.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-15-2019, 08:39 PM
Kaleb McGary is starting to get some love. May go early round 2. He was an injury replacement for the Huskies, but balled out in pass pro and run game. May be worth a look.

DenBronx
03-15-2019, 09:09 PM
Can’t help believe Nalen knows what he’s seeing / talking about. He’s also probs cool personally with Matt P.
One thing for sure is munchak’s Lines need to be athletic and move into the second level. So McGovern as a center or guard needs to lock it up.

I believe he does...Nalen is probably my favorite ever Denver OL. I’ll never forget his crotch grab to some hecklers. Dude was tuff as nails. Aka Nails Nalen.


However, he’s not a doctor. Yes Paradis is very good, in a perfect world it would of been nice to keep him. But that injury was brutal man. Denver just didn’t want to take the risk. How long until Paradis will be ready and will he ever be the same? Denver offered him a 1 year prove it deal. I just wish they had offered more incentives that Paradis could of earned if he stayed healthy. In the end...I don’t think Paradis wanted to take that risk.

Simple Jaded
03-15-2019, 10:06 PM
Kaleb McGary is starting to get some love. May go early round 2. He was an injury replacement for the Huskies, but balled out in pass pro and run game. May be worth a look.

He’s been a mid-late round pick, he must be having a good Combine/pro day season.

Teams can do better in round 2.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-15-2019, 10:11 PM
He’s been a mid-late round pick, he must be having a good Combine/pro day season.

Teams can do better in round 2.

People are actually looking at his tape. As a backup he was kind of an afterthought. Now that it's assessment season, people are taking notice

Simple Jaded
03-16-2019, 12:05 AM
People are actually looking at his tape. As a backup he was kind of an afterthought. Now that it's assessment season, people are taking notice

He’s got 4 years as a starter.

Cugel
03-16-2019, 02:28 AM
Legwold said on the radio that the ankle was broke in multiple places and he had ligament damage.

You think that Carolina didn't have an extensive medical test? They didn't decide to give him millions of $ based on no medical exam from their doctors. He passed or they wouldn't sign him.


Q: "John Elway talked about Paradis with the ankle. They just don't believe in him. They don't think he's healthy."

Tom Nalen: "Well, it's March. He's not healthy. Carolina just gave him a physical. They have doctors. That team might be a little more truthful.

Q: "So you think the Broncos are just being cheap."

Nalen: "Little bit, yes."

SmilinAssasSin27
03-16-2019, 08:33 AM
He’s got 4 years as a starter.

That is weird. The article I read before I posted list him as an injury replacement for the starting OT after Trey Adams went down. Anyhoo...someone thinks he's moving up boards

SmilinAssasSin27
03-16-2019, 08:50 AM
I stand a bit corrected. I took it as he replaced Adams.


Washington left tackle Trey Adams was supposed to be the story of the Huskies offensive line, but a back injury shut him down for much of the season. Without him, right tackle Kaleb McGary emerged as a legitimate star in pass protection and in the powerful Washington running game.

Following a strong performance after the season—and after I got a chance to dive into his tape more—McGary is moving up my board. It's unlikely that we'll see McGary fly up into the first round, but he's a solid Round 2 player now with bona fide starting tools on the right side of the line.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-16-2019, 08:18 PM
Daniel Jeremiah has him #41 player overall.

Simple Jaded
03-16-2019, 11:59 PM
You think that Carolina didn't have an extensive medical test? They didn't decide to give him millions of $ based on no medical exam from their doctors. He passed or they wouldn't sign him.

The greatest QB/GM in the history of the Denver Broncos just told you that you (and Nalen) are wrong.

Thanks for the chuckle.

Cugel
03-17-2019, 02:49 PM
Or they are just being cheap!

You forgot to mention that probability. :welcome:

Cause NFL teams are never just cheap with their own players and prodigal with those FAs of other teams who are often not any better than the guys they already have (Donald Stephenson I'm looking at you), just more expensive!

HORSEPOWER 56
03-17-2019, 04:27 PM
Just one question... we keep getting 2nd opinions from former Broncos players (Stink, Nalen, Alfred Williams, Stokely, Polumbus, whoever else Cugel hears bumping his gums for money on the radio) and I must ask. Why are they more qualified to comment on and or make decisions about the personnel situation in Denver than say the guy with the GM job Elway himself?

Perhaps those dudes, although they were fine players don’t know shit about player development/building a team/running a team from the business side, etc. Yep good players. Stick to talking about what you know. Nalen is probably friends with Paradis. All these dudes like to shit on Elway because it’s their job now. They have zero ******* clue what really goes on inside Dove Valley anymore and even less about the actual FO. Their opinions are for entertainment purposes only IMO.

UnderArmour
03-17-2019, 04:59 PM
Bolles is an easy player to go on radio and bash, because his mistakes are many and glaringly obvious. Nalen is smart to bet against him now, because there is a long time between now and week 1.

Elway is wise to bet on Bolles, because by now he should be up to snuff in the weight room and should only need coaching to get better. Elway has had the right prospects several times on OLine, but at the wrong phase of their development. Waiting out Bolles to get better is a wise decision, and weathering the storm of Nalens and Schlereths is the way to go.

If I'm Nalen, I'm bashing McGovern on the sole basis that he is a converted guard. The Bears did the same thing with Whitehair, and it is working out. But for Nalen, I imagine it bothers him that teams can just go draft a guard and switch them versus getting a specialized guy like Paradis that has always played the position. Paying Paradis was definitely the "right" thing to do, but with picks in the top half of the first three rounds, it makes no sense to take a chance. Broncos have his medicals and weren't confident. Panthers needed to fill Khalil's void and took a chance. Move doesn't deserve that much criticism.

TXBRONC
03-17-2019, 05:24 PM
When McGovern was drafted he was projected that he could play guard or center.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-17-2019, 05:39 PM
Bolles has a long way to go to be a help to this team. And his issues aren't necessarily coachable.

Jsteve01
03-17-2019, 07:04 PM
It actually does deserve that much criticism. Before we get all defensive and don't like guys like stink and nails criticizing roster moves. Last year Matt graded out at 79.9 and Connor graded out at a 58.3. Now we can talk about whether or not we like the way that PFF grades people but that difference is substantial enough to say yes there is a huge drop off between the two

Hawgdriver
03-17-2019, 08:03 PM
There is no doubt Elway is imperfect. He's our dude though and we ride. You dudes and chicks in the back hollerin at the driver about being lost, that's fine! If we don't get where we need to go, we need a new driver.

Cugel
03-17-2019, 08:59 PM
Just one question... we keep getting 2nd opinions from former Broncos players (Stink, Nalen, Alfred Williams, Stokely, Polumbus, whoever else Cugel hears bumping his gums for money on the radio) and I must ask. Why are they more qualified to comment on and or make decisions about the personnel situation in Denver than say the guy with the GM job Elway himself?

That's an excellent question! How do we know that the critics know more than Elway does about Broncos personnel decisions! Well, let's look at the record then!

What personnel decisions has Elway made in the draft in the first 3 rounds?

2014: rd 1: Bradley Roby, 2: Cody Latimer, 3: Michael Schofield. Roby is gone, the others are long gone.

2015: 1st: Shane Ray; 2nd: Ty Sambrailo; 3rd: Jeff Heurman - Shane is gone, Sambrailo has been in Miami? for a couple years. Heurman just has been invisible.

2016: Paxton Lynch, Adam Gotsis, Justin Simmons. Lynch was the Hindenburg, Gotsis is a starter, but nothing special,

2017: Garrett Bolles; DeMarcus Walker; Carlos Henderson. Crap, invisible, gone-baby-gone. Not the impact you should be getting from this draft!

But surely Elway did better in FA recently? Like in fixing the OL with players like Russell Okung, Donald Stephenson, Menelik Watson, and Ron Leary? No. Not really.

Then he hired Vance Joseph and the team won 11 games and lost 25. That's a .300 winning percentage. Was it all Vance Joseph's fault? Well, he certainly sucked! He didn't help, no. But, Elway didn't give him any help either.

So, now they have a new coaching staff, with no excuses. Vance looked like a high school freshman who unexpectedly suddenly gets a date with the Prom Queen and has no idea how to handle it. But, Elway? He hasn't covered himself in glory these last three years.

TXBRONC
03-17-2019, 09:59 PM
That's an excellent question! How do we know that the critics know more than Elway does about Broncos personnel decisions! Well, let's look at the record then!

What personnel decisions has Elway made in the draft in the first 3 rounds?

2014: rd 1: Bradley Roby, 2: Cody Latimer, 3: Michael Schofield. Roby is gone, the others are long gone.

2015: 1st: Shane Ray; 2nd: Ty Sambrailo; 3rd: Jeff Heurman - Shane is gone, Sambrailo has been in Miami? for a couple years. Heurman just has been invisible.

2016: Paxton Lynch, Adam Gotsis, Justin Simmons. Lynch was the Hindenburg, Gotsis is a starter, but nothing special,

2017: Garrett Bolles; DeMarcus Walker; Carlos Henderson. Crap, invisible, gone-baby-gone. Not the impact you should be getting from this draft!

But surely Elway did better in FA recently? Like in fixing the OL with players like Russell Okung, Donald Stephenson, Menelik Watson, and Ron Leary? No. Not really.

Then he hired Vance Joseph and the team won 11 games and lost 25. That's a .300 winning percentage. Was it all Vance Joseph's fault? Well, he certainly sucked! He didn't help, no. But, Elway didn't give him any help either.

So, now they have a new coaching staff, with no excuses. Vance looked like a high school freshman who unexpectedly suddenly gets a date with the Prom Queen and has no idea how to handle it. But, Elway? He hasn't covered himself in glory these last three years.

I'll give you Schofield and Latimer did become starters but they were contributors and helped Denver win a Super Bowl and the same with Roby. Btw I would bet dollars to doughnuts that one reason Roby is gone in not because he a terrible player rather he's not going fit Fangio scheme. Roby's strength is press coverage and from my understanding about Fangio is that he likes to play zone coverage.He also was major contributor to Denver winning Super Bowl 50.

Shane Ray was also major contributor his rookie season when Denver won the Super Bowl. He also played well the following season. I think there common thread there for Roby and Ray. They got play under Wade Philips in '15 and '16. Who was their defensive coordinator the last two year? Joe Woods. That's like going from a Mercedes Benz to a Yugo with no engine.

Simmons is a also starter on defensive along with Gotsis. Not every player is going to be an all-pro. So the 2016 has two starters on the defense.

Did you ever think that maybe 2017 class that you're complaining about had to play their first two years under an incompetent coaching staff?

Elway did try to give Joseph help to say that he didn't is inaccurate.

FanInAZ
03-19-2019, 10:12 PM
I screwed up the first "you're". First mistake I've made in about 5 years.

We'll be needing to interview your wife & kids in order to verify the accuracy of this statement :nod:

Cugel
03-20-2019, 09:48 AM
I'll give you Schofield and Latimer did become starters but they were contributors and helped Denver win a Super Bowl and the same with Roby. Btw I would bet dollars to doughnuts that one reason Roby is gone in not because he a terrible player rather he's not going fit Fangio scheme. Roby's strength is press coverage and from my understanding about Fangio is that he likes to play zone coverage.He also was major contributor to Denver winning Super Bowl 50.

Shane Ray was also major contributor his rookie season when Denver won the Super Bowl. He also played well the following season. I think there common thread there for Roby and Ray. They got play under Wade Philips in '15 and '16. Who was their defensive coordinator the last two year? Joe Woods. That's like going from a Mercedes Benz to a Yugo with no engine.

Simmons is a also starter on defensive along with Gotsis. Not every player is going to be an all-pro. So the 2016 has two starters on the defense.

Did you ever think that maybe 2017 class that you're complaining about had to play their first two years under an incompetent coaching staff?

Elway did try to give Joseph help to say that he didn't is inaccurate.

Are you trolling? Or are you serious in defending Elway's drafting? :laugh:

Because the UNIVERSAL, and I mean universal opinion of Elway's drafting over the past 5 years is that it's totally horrible.

In the 2015 draft they had 9 draft picks, and only 1 of them - Jeff Heurman is still on the roster. And he's a career backup who's expected to be a backup again this year (to Jake Butt - IF Butt can stay healthy). That draft should be the core of your team. Nope.

2014 - Not one pick is on the roster five years later. Most of them are out of football altogether.

They are paying Jawan James more than any RT in NFL history because they failed to draft and develop Ty Sambrailo into a viable starter. They are paying Kareem Jackson $11m a year to play CB/S because of the failure to draft and develop DBs including Brenden Langley who decided that he no longer wants to be a CB, he wants to be a WR.

Up till last year, the draft's just been a total horror show, if you pay attention to their depth chart and contract situation. And every single commenter on radio/tv or sports shows says the same thing.

Cugel
03-20-2019, 09:52 AM
The 2018 draft did get a lot better, with Chubb, Sutton, Freeman, Yiadom, G Sam Jones, and Jewell all expected to start or play significant minutes this year. Along with Phillip Lindsay it was a great draft. But, given how horrible the Broncos drafting has been previous five years they need about 3 more drafts like last year just to fill out the roster.

TXBRONC
03-20-2019, 12:08 PM
Are you trolling? Or are you serious in defending Elway's drafting? :laugh:

Because the UNIVERSAL, and I mean universal opinion of Elway's drafting over the past 5 years is that it's totally horrible.

In the 2015 draft they had 9 draft picks, and only 1 of them - Jeff Heurman is still on the roster. And he's a career backup who's expected to be a backup again this year (to Jake Butt - IF Butt can stay healthy). That draft should be the core of your team. Nope.

2014 - Not one pick is on the roster five years later. Most of them are out of football altogether.

They are paying Jawan James more than any RT in NFL history because they failed to draft and develop Ty Sambrailo into a viable starter. They are paying Kareem Jackson $11m a year to play CB/S because of the failure to draft and develop DBs including Brenden Langley who decided that he no longer wants to be a CB, he wants to be a WR.

Up till last year, the draft's just been a total horror show, if you pay attention to their depth chart and contract situation. And every single commenter on radio/tv or sports shows says the same thing.

No, I'm not trolling you. I was pointing out some facts about Elway's drafts that you didn't mention.

Cug, I really don't care what the media thinks. Their opinions don't win or lose games.

Cugel
03-20-2019, 01:41 PM
No, I'm not trolling you. I was pointing out some facts about Elway's drafts that you didn't mention.

Cug, I really don't care what the media thinks. Their opinions don't win or lose games.

That's true. Vance Joseph and team managed to lose 21 out of 32 games the last two years, without help from the media.

That wasn't just because VJ was a terrible coach. Barry Switzer wasn't a great NFL coach but he managed to win a SB with Jimmy Johnson's great Dallas players.

The Broncos suck because they don't have a lot of talent on the roster. That's because Elway drafted guys like Carlos Henderson and Paxton Lynch and got zero value out of them. The lack of talent on the roster at key positions is directly due to Elway sucking at drafting.

Hopefully, he's learned his lesson and is now prepared to get some decent players this April. They really need them. They can't continue to rely on high priced FAs at most positions.

TXBRONC
03-20-2019, 02:15 PM
That's true. Vance Joseph and team managed to lose 21 out of 32 games the last two years, without help from the media.

That wasn't just because VJ was a terrible coach. Barry Switzer wasn't a great NFL coach but he managed to win a SB with Jimmy Johnson's great Dallas players.

The Broncos suck because they don't have a lot of talent on the roster. That's because Elway drafted guys like Carlos Henderson and Paxton Lynch and got zero value out of them. The lack of talent on the roster at key positions is directly due to Elway sucking at drafting.

Hopefully, he's learned his lesson and is now prepared to get some decent players this April. They really need them. They can't continue to rely on high priced FAs at most positions.

I disagree, I think there is quite a high bit of talent on the team the most glaring weakness is a competent starting quarterback. Cug,they're not mostly free agents to fill out most positions. On offense the person who will starting in the backfield that wasn't drafted by Denver will be Flacco. The wide receivers and tight ends were and expect will remain mostly draft picks and UDFAs. One the offensive line it could be many three FA depending how it's addressed in the draft.

On defense there are only three guys who were FAs who will be starting Peko, Callahan, and Jackson and you could add Todd Davis was claimed off of waivers his rookie season but that was five years ago. He probably won't be starting might not even be on the team if Denver drafts White or Bush. That would mean 7 out of 11 starters would be home grown.

Simple Jaded
03-20-2019, 11:38 PM
It actually does deserve that much criticism. Before we get all defensive and don't like guys like stink and nails criticizing roster moves. Last year Matt graded out at 79.9 and Connor graded out at a 58.3. Now we can talk about whether or not we like the way that PFF grades people but that difference is substantial enough to say yes there is a huge drop off between the two

Here’s my problem with PFF, there’s how many players on the field at a time? 22, and how many plays a game? 150 +/-, and how many teams in a game? 2, and how many games in a day? 16. And who is doing the “grading”? Do these people actually know every players responsibility?

I’ve heard many actual players make the same argument.

You’re tellling me they grade that many players and publish grades by the next morning? I’m not buying it, I never did.

Btw, I don’t need PFF tell me when Paradis gets his scrawny ass trucked into the ball carrier. The OL has sucked his entire tenure, he’s the leader of a shit OL. The OL played better without him.

Buff
03-21-2019, 12:09 AM
It actually does deserve that much criticism. Before we get all defensive and don't like guys like stink and nails criticizing roster moves. Last year Matt graded out at 79.9 and Connor graded out at a 58.3. Now we can talk about whether or not we like the way that PFF grades people but that difference is substantial enough to say yes there is a huge drop off between the two

If McGovern is our starting center then I'm with you... But I don't think he will be. My contention isn't that McGovern is good - just that Paradis can be replaced and that $9 million can be re-purposed elsewhere.

Simple Jaded
03-21-2019, 12:32 AM
McGovern has only started a handful of games at C, he can get better.

Elevation inc
03-21-2019, 06:30 AM
Here’s my problem with PFF, there’s how many players on the field at a time? 22, and how many plays a game? 150 +/-, and how many teams in a game? 2, and how many games in a day? 16. And who is doing the “grading”? Do these people actually know every players responsibility?

I’ve heard many actual players make the same argument.

You’re tellling me they grade that many players and publish grades by the next morning? I’m not buying it, I never did.

Btw, I don’t need PFF tell me when Paradis gets his scrawny ass trucked into the ball carrier. The OL has sucked his entire tenure, he’s the leader of a shit OL. The OL played better without him.


I disagree with your take on PFF, nothing is foolproof but they do have a big film staff, and a number of coaches in the past have stated its been a great tool for their own evaluation of players. They look at what they see on their own tape nd use PFF as a guide. For me I consider PFF a guide...its not fool proof, but its a good indicator of a players overall performance or where they truly lack. A player may be good at run blocking, but suck at pass protection. The end result is a avg. player by PFF metrics. They have been pretty even on their evaluations the last few years.

As for Paradis his strength was always his OL leadership, line calls and intelligence. You aren't wrong in saying he got blown up quite a bit inside at times on run downs......

Jsteve01
03-21-2019, 09:08 PM
If McGovern is our starting center then I'm with you... But I don't think he will be. My contention isn't that McGovern is good - just that Paradis can be replaced and that $9 million can be re-purposed elsewhere.

I'm fine with that. But there's a reason that he got the money that he did in the NFL. Because the general consensus is that Paradis is a very quality starting center. As long as McGovern isn't starting at Center and he's our guard, I'm cool with that.

TXBRONC
03-22-2019, 07:42 AM
I'm fine with that. But there's a reason that he got the money that he did in the NFL. Because the general consensus is that Paradis is a very quality starting center. As long as McGovern isn't starting at Center and he's our guard, I'm cool with that.

I'm good with him being center if that's what Denver decides they want to do. When guy is just thrown into it there is going to be an adjustment.

Simple Jaded
03-22-2019, 09:53 PM
I’m so happy for Paradis...

And the Denver Broncos.

Simple Jaded
03-22-2019, 09:54 PM
I disagree with your take on PFF, nothing is foolproof but they do have a big film staff, and a number of coaches in the past have stated its been a great tool for their own evaluation of players. They look at what they see on their own tape nd use PFF as a guide. For me I consider PFF a guide...its not fool proof, but its a good indicator of a players overall performance or where they truly lack. A player may be good at run blocking, but suck at pass protection. The end result is a avg. player by PFF metrics. They have been pretty even on their evaluations the last few years.

As for Paradis his strength was always his OL leadership, line calls and intelligence. You aren't wrong in saying he got blown up quite a bit inside at times on run downs......

Apparently Paradis teammates hate him, small man disease.

And he’s making the line calls for an annually shitty OL.

Cugel
03-26-2019, 07:35 PM
McGovern has only started a handful of games at C, he can get better.

Maybe. I don't know. Orlando Franklin kept watching him on tape and saying "he doesn't play like a center. He plays like a G." Maybe they can fix that.

HORSEPOWER 56
03-26-2019, 09:14 PM
Everything here is complete speculation. You can’t possibly even look at how a guy played last year and compare it to how he’ll play this year. We now have one of the best OL coaches in the league. Something we haven’t had since Alex Gibbs. Having Musgrave as the OL coach is like swapping VJ for Belichick and not expecting improvement.

I’m in wait and see mode with this coaching staff but I’m optimistic that this staff with their long history of success will make a huge difference over the guys we just got rid of who have no idea what success really is. VJ and his staff were terrible - worst staff in the league - and still won 6 games last year.

Cugel
03-29-2019, 05:18 PM
Everything here is complete speculation. You can’t possibly even look at how a guy played last year and compare it to how he’ll play this year. We now have one of the best OL coaches in the league. Something we haven’t had since Alex Gibbs. Having Musgrave as the OL coach is like swapping VJ for Belichick and not expecting improvement.

I’m in wait and see mode with this coaching staff but I’m optimistic that this staff with their long history of success will make a huge difference over the guys we just got rid of who have no idea what success really is. VJ and his staff were terrible - worst staff in the league - and still won 6 games last year.

That's the operating theory. Hire Munchak and have him whip the feeble OL into shape. Maybe it will work. He's gotten improved OL play everywhere he's coached before.

And Garrett Bolles does have elite athleticism, but he also is a complete bonehead with horrible technique who gets multiple holding penalties on successive plays.

Mark Schlereth insists that he blatantly held on three successive plays against the Chargers but the ref didn't call the last one purely out of pity, even though that hold was the worst of the three.

I'm not a former OL with 12 years experience and multiple SB rings, so what do I know? I just watch and see Bolles sucking all the time.

Simple Jaded
04-02-2019, 01:05 AM
Maybe. I don't know. Orlando Franklin kept watching him on tape and saying "he doesn't play like a center. He plays like a G." Maybe they can fix that.

Did he elaborate? And did he play with Paradis, can’t remember?

One thing I know about former OL teammates, from listening to Ryan Harris, is they’re not exactly objective. If Deebo is anywhere close to being as biased as RH then his opinion can’t be taken seriously.