Broncos sign T JaWuan James

[Buff]

That's a lotta money for a right tackle... But now we've addressed the two biggest holes in DB and offensive line. And I'd rather pay a tackle than a center (Paradis).

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1105305801374220289

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Hellz yeah!!!

[UnderArmour]

Glad the team is going into the draft with needs at DB and RT filled. This team definitely isn't done yet, either.

[Shazam!]

Good move John

[Cugel]

At least this means that the Broncos need RG and C. James gets the highest contract for a RT in NFL history. He will have to be very, very good to be worth this much.

But, RT is very important in that many teams have two pass rushers or else DE/OLB who moves around the line to create mismatches against slower Ts. You can't have a slower less able RT any more.

RT and CB were two of the Broncos 3 big needs (along with QB). Now they just need a TE and a RG and they may be able to find a RG in the draft. DOn't have to use a 1st round pick to fill any desperate hole any more.

They could simply draft the best player available at #10 - which might be ILB Devin White.

It is now unlikely to be a T with the 10th overall pick unless Muchak has decided that Bolles is a bust and that they have to replace him.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Paradis still in play

[Cugel]

These are the big money FA signings. The $34 million they had under the cap is mostly gone now, and they will be limited to lower tier FA players from this point on, unless they free up some more cap room somehow.

[turftoad]

That's a lotta money for a right tackle... But now we've addressed the two biggest holes in DB and offensive line. And I'd rather pay a tackle than a center (Paradis).

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1105305801374220289

Hell. Who says he won't play LT. Put Bolles at RT. I'd feel a lot better about that scenario!
I've always felt Bolles would be better on the right side.

[slim]

I don't see Bolles at RT. We'll see.

[turftoad]

I don't see Bolles at RT. We'll see.

You're right. He'd probably make a better Gaurd! :D

[dogfish]

thank goodness. . . that's stupid money for james, but our options were extremely limited. . . if we were intending to be competitive this year, something had to be done at RT. . . you can't get forced into drafting for need with your high rounders, especially when they're also early in the round-- you need to maximize those picks. . . we would still really benefit from a more athletic inside 'backer-- that's probably the one true priority that hasn't been addressed yet. . . if we could still fit a KJ wright or collins into the cap, that would be balls. . . and maybe add some low level guys at WR, NT, OG, maybe S or TE. . .

then keep our fingers crossed that james can stay on the field, because that contract quickly turns into an anchor if he can't. . . with plenty of selections in the later rounds, they really need to target a developmental OT with some upside who munchak can start working on. . . need to find an understudy for leary as well, obviously. . . lots of work to do, still. . . but it's good to see us at least get a bit of lifting out of the way today, while capable starters were still available. . .

[dogfish]

I don't see Bolles at RT. We'll see.

turf, we love ya, brother. . . but bolles is the left tackle, man. . . it'll hurt less when you just accept it. . . :heh:

[turftoad]

turf, we love ya, brother. . . but bolles is the left tackle, man. . . it'll hurt less when you just accept it. . . :heh:

I have. And it hurts buddy!
He may be a LT bit not a true franchise type LT. Let's not fool ourselves.

[dogfish]

I have. And it hurts buddy!
He may be a LT bit not a true franchise type LT. Let's not fool ourselves.

oh, i'm not. . . i've just accepted that there AREN'T any franchise tackles anymore. . . maybe tyron smith when he was fully healthy, but i don't see a single OT in the league right now who will get even the slightest consideration for the HOF when he's done. . . joe thomas was the last of the mohicans. . . that's obviously not to say that there aren't plenty of guys who are better than bolles. . . but true franchise type tackles? i don't see many, if any, around the league. . .

[Freyaka]

That's a lotta money for a right tackle... But now we've addressed the two biggest holes in DB and offensive line. And I'd rather pay a tackle than a center (Paradis).

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1105305801374220289

http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lygvsyDdRs1r5rl88o1_500.gif

[nevcraw]

Our ol coach has turned nonames into pro bowlers. Let’s see what he can do with McGovern and bolles

[MOtorboat]

Bolles will be fine. Good signing.

Maybe we’ll stop blaming the offensive line for poor quarterback play.

[slim]

I like the KJ signing better, but I am always open to quality big uglies.

[chazoe60]

I like the KJ signing better, but I am always open to quality big uglies.

That was my nickname in HS, minus the quality part.

[Shazam!]

Bolles will be fine. Good signing.

Maybe we’ll stop blaming the offensive line for poor quarterback play.

'Blaming' lol

[VonDoom]

That’s a premium price but after years of trying to go cheap at this position, we might have found our guy.

I love Paradis but if it’s really Paradis/Veldheer (or equivalent) or McGovern/James, I’ll take this combo

[OrangeHoof]

JaWuanna Mann on the right side? Denver, you have one.

[dogfish]

That’s a premium price but after years of trying to go cheap at this position, we might have found our guy.

I love Paradis but if it’s really Paradis/Veldheer (or equivalent) or McGovern/James, I’ll take this combo

the position has been a freakin' black hole of suck since orlando franklin. . . i just hope he can stay healthy. . . they had to do something, though. . .

[Timmy!]

Double solid. Now pick up some cheaper pieces and slay the draft.

[Timmy!]

And fellas, McGovern is the C. Really. Stop.

[Tned]

Bolles will be fine. Good signing.

Maybe we’ll stop blaming the offensive line for poor quarterback play.

Or, maybe poor offensive line play will no longer be a factor in poor QB play.

If line play wasn't an issue they wouldn't have just signed a RT to a huge contact. Also, what, the fourth new FA RT signing in as as many years, or close to it (had some crappy drafted players in the mix as well)

[sneakers]

That's about the going rate for a tackle

[sneakers]

That's about the going rate for a tackle tho

[Elevation inc]

We had to do something at RT, and we have. This probably rules out a OT at ten now, which to be honest I'm glad about, because I felt there were better players on defense or Lock at 10, that made more sense without possibly making a reach. James was a beast in 2017, but was hurt last year with a patellar tendon injury he battled all year, so there is risk here, But also good upside so I don't dislike the move. The contract scares me, but its pretty clear the market has shifted this year, so I still think John made the right move here.

Rumor is we are trying to re-sign Paradis, which if it happens would give us Bolles, Leary, Paradis, McGovern and James. That seems to be a upgrade to me if everyone is healthy. Still though, we need to get a OT to develop and make sure we have a solid Guard back-up plan as well. Leary is coming off injury

[VonDoom]

That's about the going rate for a tackle tho

Well, he’s now the highest paid RT in the league

[SmilinAssasSin27]

We had to do something at RT, and we have. This probably rules out a OT at ten now, which to be honest I'm glad about, because I felt there were better players on defense or Lock at 10, that made more sense without possibly making a reach. James was a beast in 2017, but was hurt last year with a patellar tendon injury he battled all year, so there is risk here, But also good upside so I don't dislike the move. The contract scares me, but its pretty clear the market has shifted this year, so I still think John made the right move here.

Rumor is we are trying to re-sign Paradis, which if it happens would give us Bolles, Leary, Paradis, McGovern and James. That seems to be a upgrade to me if everyone is healthy. Still though, we need to get a OT to develop and make sure we have a solid Guard back-up plan as well. Leary is coming off injury

We should grab the Northern Illinois kid.

[Elevation inc]

We should grab the Northern Illinois kid.

I like him as a prospect. He has good work ethic, has some solid tape, has a passion for the game and fits the mold of a player to develop under Munchak. I expect him to be take in rd. 3 or 4. I also would be fine Taking Tytus Howard in that range. Unless we don't draft Lock then we need to draft a Qb around the 2-4 range, to develop the right way and stop farting around with the mediocre Qb's of the world....That would change the target a bit I would think.

[Ziggy]

oh, i'm not. . . i've just accepted that there AREN'T any franchise tackles anymore. . . maybe tyron smith when he was fully healthy, but i don't see a single OT in the league right now who will get even the slightest consideration for the HOF when he's done. . . joe thomas was the last of the mohicans. . . that's obviously not to say that there aren't plenty of guys who are better than bolles. . . but true franchise type tackles? i don't see many, if any, around the league. . .

Outside of Jason Peters I would agree with you here Dog. His 9 pro bowls and 2 first team all pro selections will get him some serious consideration for the HOF.

[TXBRONC]

At least this means that the Broncos need RG and C. James gets the highest contract for a RT in NFL history. He will have to be very, very good to be worth this much.

But, RT is very important in that many teams have two pass rushers or else DE/OLB who moves around the line to create mismatches against slower Ts. You can't have a slower less able RT any more.

RT and CB were two of the Broncos 3 big needs (along with QB). Now they just need a TE and a RG and they may be able to find a RG in the draft. DOn't have to use a 1st round pick to fill any desperate hole any more.

They could simply draft the best player available at #10 - which might be ILB Devin White.

It is now unlikely to be a T with the 10th overall pick unless Muchak has decided that Bolles is a bust and that they have to replace him.

It depends on what Denver plans to do with Conner McGovern. He's capable of starting at guard or center.

[CoachChaz]

This move just shows our desperation on the OL. James is solid and coming off a good year, but in a typical year, there is no way he is worth this contract. Hope he proves me wrong, but I cant help but feel we'll regret this one eventually.

[ShaneFalco]

This move just shows our desperation on the OL. James is solid and coming off a good year, but in a typical year, there is no way he is worth this contract. Hope he proves me wrong, but I cant help but feel we'll regret this one eventually.

it feels like elway doesnt know whether he is rebuilding or competing. And franchise doesnt really have a direction.

Hoping for the best like a Clady type tackle.

[Shazam!]

This move just shows our desperation on the OL. James is solid and coming off a good year, but in a typical year, there is no way he is worth this contract. Hope he proves me wrong, but I cant help but feel we'll regret this one eventually.

it feels like elway doesnt know whether he is rebuilding or competing. And franchise doesnt really have a direction.

Hoping for the best like a Clady type tackle.

Elway believes theyre not that far away and is looking to bring a contender in 2019

[Cugel]

oh, i'm not. . . i've just accepted that there AREN'T any franchise tackles anymore. . . maybe tyron smith when he was fully healthy, but i don't see a single OT in the league right now who will get even the slightest consideration for the HOF when he's done. . . joe thomas was the last of the mohicans. . . that's obviously not to say that there aren't plenty of guys who are better than bolles. . . but true franchise type tackles? i don't see many, if any, around the league. . .

Franchise player does not equal HOF. They need to find a guy who would play for 10 seasons. That equals "franchise" - you draft him and plug him in and re-sign him when his contract expires.

[broncofaninfla]

RT has been a revolving door for too long. Like the signing, not the price but it's the state of free agency now. Both signings are a upgrade over last year, the Broncos are already better and it's early.

[Cugel]

"They could have gotten him [Paradis] done for around $9m, maybe $9.5. The time to get this done was last year in training camp. Last July. Now, it's going to cost more. Now Paradis is able to take offers from other teams. Now, Paradis is going to say they made me wait, now I want what other teams will offer, $11m, or $12m." -- Orlando Franklin, former Broncos RT.

They tried to get it done for cheaper at the last minute. It's not going to work. Now Paradis is the most valuable C on the market and he's getting a big offer.

Just another in an endless series of screwups with John Elway's contract negotiations. Listening to Orlando Franklin this morning about how they screwed up their negotiations with him, and then signed Donald Stephenson to that bad contract for a lot more money than Orlando, it was just a scathing indictment of how they handled his negotiations with Elway. Clearly things have not changed.

I don't care if players are butt hurt, because I'm a Broncos fan, but waiting until the last minute and then trying to get a deal done a couple of weeks before FA to try and get a deal done is just stupid. It's not working and Elway just refuses to change.

(EX: #1 was the Brock Osweiler negotiations that went so badly wrong that Osweiler left for the huge FA contract, and Elway had to panic move up in the draft and grab . . . Paxton Lynch.)

Now, the signing of Jawan James is a good one even if the Sports press gives it a "D." But they should have re-signed Paradis last off-season. Losing him is going to hurt them.

[Dapper Dan]

I love it.

[underrated29]

I think it would have been foolish to sign paradis last offseasons. Guy had another hip surgery. You dont extend a player who just went on ir.

Plus McGovern did fine. We dont need to pay paradis a ton. That imo is foolish.

Plus, that much money for a oft injured double hip player is not smart. Love the guy, but not for us, not anymore.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

This move just shows our desperation on the OL. James is solid and coming off a good year, but in a typical year, there is no way he is worth this contract. Hope he proves me wrong, but I cant help but feel we'll regret this one eventually.

Improved each season. I can live with that over what we have.

[CoachChaz]

Improved each season. I can live with that over what we have.

It fills a big hole and he's a good player. My biggest concern is his injury history. Really, my biggest frustration is having to spend that much to fill a hole due to completely inept drafting.

[G_Money]

James is very good. I think of him like Jordan Gross with the Panthers a few years back: could play either position, made a few pro bowls and even a first team All Pro one year. He settled in at LT for the second half of his career. I dunno that James is gonna do that, but he's a quality tackle on a team that desperately needed one - and paid through the nose for it.

John can't draft tackles, and he can't pick up value tackles in FA. All that was left was to pay full freight for a tackle, and James is still young enough to not be dead money by the end. It's expensive now but if it works the Broncos have solved an Achilles heel that was holding back the offense - ANY offense - from achieving enough to get Denver where it wants to go.

I'm all right with it.

[G_Money]

It fills a big hole and he's a good player. My biggest concern is his injury history. Really, my biggest frustration is having to spend that much to fill a hole due to completely inept drafting.

Very frustrating, but wishing for Elway to be better at drafting line talent wouldn't make it so. Now the hope is to add good linemen and hope coaching can make them great, I guess. If I loved the OL talent at the top of this draft it would be a different thing, I guess, but I'd rather see Denver not reach for an OT again and blow it again. They needs wins in this draft, so hopefully this is a win in FA that lets Denver score a real talent and not a bust early.

[GEM]

Bolles will be fine. Good signing.

Maybe we’ll stop blaming the offensive line for poor quarterback play.

Lol, they both have sucked. :lol:

[GEM]

the position has been a freakin' black hole of suck since orlando franklin. . . i just hope he can stay healthy. . . they had to do something, though. . .

Anyone listen to Orlando on the fan? He's actually pretty damn good!

[Davii]

Anyone listen to Orlando on the fan? He's actually pretty damn good!

That is one of the scariest looking men I've ever seen. I loved having him on the team, big *******!

I always expected him to sound angry. He didn't though.

[GEM]

That is one of the scariest looking men I've ever seen. I loved having him on the team, big *******!

I always expected him to sound angry. He didn't though.

He's soft spoken and pretty knowledgeable. I was surprised.

[Freyaka]

That is one of the scariest looking men I've ever seen. I loved having him on the team, big *******!

I always expected him to sound angry. He didn't though.

It's that lazy eye. Makes him look mean as heck!

[tomjonesrocks]

Was hoping we'd deal with this particular hole in the draft (mainly because this team has whiffed -so- badly with previous stabs at fixing the o-line in FA) - but maybe this will allow drafting in later rounds and letting Munchak work his magic with rawer talent for depth / the future ...

[Hawgdriver]

Anyone listen to Orlando on the fan? He's actually pretty damn good!

Most important for me is how they answer the question 'can I trust this guy?' Orlando says some obvious shit, but I feel like he's got my back. If that makes sense.

[Hawgdriver]

Plus I love how family-focused Orlando is. Seems like a genuine good dude with a healthy perspective on the violence of football and life itself.

[Cugel]

Lol, they both have sucked. :lol:

They both have sucked yes. For years now they have sucked so badly. Since Peyton retired at least, and really before that. Peyton used to self-sack so it wasn't so glaring but yes, the OL has been terrible for years.

[Cugel]

It's that lazy eye. Makes him look mean as heck!

It just made me mad listening to him. He wanted to stay in Denver, and told his agent when he got a deal from the Chargers for more money, that he would take less to remain in Denver. The agent called Elway who told him "there's no offer here in Denver." They were all in on signing Donald Stephenson for a lot more money. We all know how brilliantly that worked out. :tsk:

[Buff]

It just made me mad listening to him. He wanted to stay in Denver, and told his agent when he got a deal from the Chargers for more money, that he would take less to remain in Denver. The agent called Elway who told him "there's no offer here in Denver." They were all in on signing Donald Stephenson for a lot more money. We all know how brilliantly that worked out. :tsk:

Elway signed Stephenson for $14 million over 3 years in 2016. Franklin signed with the Chargers for $36 million over 5 years and $20 million guaranteed in 2015...

Granted, Stephenson was terrible - but the deals weren't really close, let alone "a lot more money."

[NightTerror218]

So now white and lock are the choices at 10 which OT and CB holes filled.

[CoachChaz]

So now white and lock are the choices at 10 which OT and CB holes filled.

Hockenson is my sleeper pick at 10

[Elevation inc]

Hockenson is my sleeper pick at 10

I could see that, but I would be pretty upset if a franchise QB was there and we passed for a TE....We can have Kelce 2.0 all day but if we cant fix QB it wont matter. Also heard Detroit has interest in him as well as Buffalo....good for him if he goes that high....

[Cugel]

Elway signed Stephenson for $14 million over 3 years in 2016. Franklin signed with the Chargers for $36 million over 5 years and $20 million guaranteed in 2015...

Granted, Stephenson was terrible - but the deals weren't really close, let alone "a lot more money."

He said on the radio yesterday that he told his agent when he got the FA deal with the Chargers "tell the Broncos I will come back for less." They weren't interested. They wanted Stephenson.

[TXBRONC]

He said on the radio yesterday that he told his agent when he got the FA deal with the Chargers "tell the Broncos I will come back for less." They weren't interested. They wanted Stephenson.

Did he say that or you are interpreting what he said as Denver wasn't interested?

[dogfish]

Most important for me is how they answer the question 'can I trust this guy?' Orlando says some obvious shit, but I feel like he's got my back. If that makes sense.

debo is definitely that dude you want on your side in a dark alley, or a bar fight. . .

[nevcraw]

I could see that, but I would be pretty upset if a franchise QB was there and we passed for a TE....We can have Kelce 2.0 all day but if we cant fix QB it wont matter. Also heard Detroit has interest in him as well as Buffalo....good for him if he goes that high....

10 Is too rich for a TE unless it’s a generational prospect. This dude is not generational that I know Of.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

White, Haskins, Lock or trade back. We can help our team soooooo much if we gain early picks in this draft. I really like Risner and the 3 big TEs if my top 3 aren't around. Wouldn't be mad if we got the Sooner Guard or Michigan MLB either if we trade back.

We get Risner and Irv Smith or Fant and we are a much better team immediately.

[dogfish]

On the offensive side, Elway and Fangio see James as a player who could potentially fill a void at the right tackle position.

“Like I said, we think he’s a perfect system fit for us,” Elway said. “He’s had five great years down there in Miami, but [we] really think he can solidify that right tackle [position] and that’s our expectation.”

Added Fangio: “[He’s a] good athlete with length and size to him, and I like that he’s in the middle of his career. I think he’s got the chance to be a Bronco for a long time.”

https://www.denverbroncos.com/news/john-elway-vic-fangio-bring-in-guys-that-we-all-liked-in-first-wave-of-free-agen

[tomjonesrocks]

Anyone listen to Orlando on the fan? He's actually pretty damn good!

Everyone hates DMac but I’ve been checking in with the Big Al replacements (Orlando, Chad Brown, Nalen).

Orlando was good but Nalen I have really enjoyed. He’s going to be tough to beat.

[BroncoJoe]

I have no clue as to the validity of this, but curious what our local football junkies think:

Report: Dolphins 'laughing' at Broncos for signing Ja'Wuan James

https://247sports.com/nfl/denver-broncos/Article/Dolphins-laughing-at-Broncos-for-signing-JaWuan-James-130244536/

[ShaneFalco]

how can the dolphins be laughing at anyone?

They are the dolphins.

[Freyaka]

I have no clue as to the validity of this, but curious what our local football junkies think:

Report: Dolphins 'laughing' at Broncos for signing Ja'Wuan James

https://247sports.com/nfl/denver-broncos/Article/Dolphins-laughing-at-Broncos-for-signing-JaWuan-James-130244536/

Apparently Dolphins fans are denying the validity of it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/miamidolphins/comments/b2jgoe/mmqb_absolutely_rips_the_jawuan_james_signing_but/?st=JTEOADRC&sh=f24d4b3c


Talking s*** about our players as soon as they walk out the door...a timeless Dolphins tradition


Guessing they're desperate for fans to have the perception that the FO did the right thing


Who are these "some in Miami", considering we've just had a regime change in the coaching room and there's no around of any real authority who've had hands-on experience coaching James??

Secondly, we've had a LONG LIST of questionable OLinemen in Miami who've required assistance on nearly EVERY passing down since James was drafted by us, but I don't remember (having actually watched the games) that James was ever one of them, other than when he was up against a real stud pass-rusher. Think Dallas Thomas and Billy Turner, Steen, Urbik, Douglas, Bushrod, as well as Sterup and Young in 2018 -- all those guys needed assistance on every down basically. And before James showed up we had some complely disastrous tackles like Jason Fox and Tyson Claybo (<shivers>), and a few other fill-ins who were nearly all absolutely terrible!


Broncos current assistant O-line coach is our former assistant O-line coach (Chris Kuper). I imagine if there were any truth to this bulls****, he would have sounded the alarm bells.


seems pretty sensationalist. he might not be the best RT in the game today, but he's far from the worst. he's a good tackle, and there aren't a lot of those out there.

I'm not real worried about it. Kuper knows him, he'd be well aware if it was as bad as the spin is claiming.

[CoachChaz]

I have to think Kuper, who is familiar with him, and Munchak were consulted on this before it happened. So, I'm not too worried.

[Elevation inc]

I have to think Kuper, who is familiar with him, and Munchak were consulted on this before it happened. So, I'm not too worried.

To be honest I think walterfootball.com has a valid take on the signing:

http://www.walterfootball.com/freeagents2019OT.php


Broncos sign OT Ja'Wuan James (4 years, $52 million): B+ Grade
There have been many foolish big-money signings today, but this is definitely not one of them. The Broncos made a terrific move in acquiring Ja'Wuan James even though they'll be paying him more than any other right tackle in the NFL.

James was the 18th-ranked player in my Top 100 NFL Free Agents list, and he plays a very important position. He also provides a huge, much-needed upgrade on the offensive line. The Broncos had horrible play at right tackle last year, and this signing will change that.

A couple of other things to consider: James is just 26 (27 in June), so he still has plenty of time to improve his overall game. James has been stellar at times for the Dolphins, though not so much last year because of a strained patellar tendon. He should be 100 percent by training camp, so he figures to perform on a high level once again for his new team.

This signing won't be in the "A" range because it's not a bargain, but I think a B+ is certainly warranted.


Read more: http://www.walterfootball.com/freeagentsigninggrades.php#ixzz5idDSyseP

[CoachChaz]

To be honest I think walterfootball.com has a valid take on the signing:

http://www.walterfootball.com/freeagents2019OT.php


Broncos sign OT Ja'Wuan James (4 years, $52 million): B+ Grade
There have been many foolish big-money signings today, but this is definitely not one of them. The Broncos made a terrific move in acquiring Ja'Wuan James even though they'll be paying him more than any other right tackle in the NFL.

James was the 18th-ranked player in my Top 100 NFL Free Agents list, and he plays a very important position. He also provides a huge, much-needed upgrade on the offensive line. The Broncos had horrible play at right tackle last year, and this signing will change that.

A couple of other things to consider: James is just 26 (27 in June), so he still has plenty of time to improve his overall game. James has been stellar at times for the Dolphins, though not so much last year because of a strained patellar tendon. He should be 100 percent by training camp, so he figures to perform on a high level once again for his new team.

This signing won't be in the "A" range because it's not a bargain, but I think a B+ is certainly warranted.


Read more: http://www.walterfootball.com/freeagentsigninggrades.php#ixzz5idDSyseP

My biggest concern with him is the injury bug. If he can avoid...or even minimize that, I have high hopes.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Didn't they reject trading him to us last year? All I need to know.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Didn't they reject trading him to us last year? All I need to know.

That’s my philosophy. If he was so terrible, why not trade him to us last year when they could’ve gotten something and “fleeced” us. Whatever.

[Shazam!]

Miami is gonna be a train wreck anyway.

[TXBRONC]

That’s my philosophy. If he was so terrible, why not trade him to us last year when they could’ve gotten something and “fleeced” us. Whatever.

I had forgotten about that.

[Cugel]

Did he say that or you are interpreting what he said as Denver wasn't interested?

Apparently, he told his agent to talk to the Broncos and tell them that he would take less than his on the table offer from the Chargers. Their exact response to his agent was "there's no contract for him here." That came directly from him. Not me.

They were excited about getting Donald Stephenson. They believed he would be great because of what he had done in KC, which didn't appear likely to anybody else, including the Chiefs who let him walk rather than trying to re-sign him. But, the Broncos were sure they had signed an undervalued player! A real bargain!

And he sucked. Perfect example of valuing other team's players over your own.

[TXBRONC]

Apparently, he told his agent to talk to the Broncos and tell them that he would take less than his on the table offer from the Chargers. Their exact response to his agent was "there's no contract for him here." That came directly from him. Not me.

They were excited about getting Donald Stephenson. They believed he would be great because of what he had done in KC, which didn't appear likely to anybody else, including the Chiefs who let him walk rather than trying to re-sign him. But, the Broncos were sure they had signed an undervalued player! A real bargain!

And he sucked. Perfect example of valuing other team's players over your own.

So they said that's what Broncos told them? That doesn't make it accurate Cug.

[Simple Jaded]

how can the dolphins be laughing at anyone?

They are the dolphins.

What if they sign Chad Kelly?

[TXBRONC]

What if they sign Chad Kelly?

Then Shane has a new team to follow.

[dogfish]

What if they sign Chad Kelly?

super bowl. . . duh!

[TXBRONC]

super bowl. . . duh!

On Madden...maybe.

[Simple Jaded]

Ju’Wuan James vs Khalil Mack on NFL Network right now.

[UnderArmour]

Ju’Wuan James vs Khalil Mack on NFL Network right now.

To be fair, Mack supposedly got injured in the game and played through it. I know he missed the next few games.

[Cugel]

So they said that's what Broncos told them? That doesn't make it accurate Cug.

Orlando Franklin spent about 20 minutes on the radio talking about his contract negotiations for the Broncos. I wasn't there talking to his agent. That's what he said.

He's been retired for a while now, and there's no reason for him to lie about it now that he's a sports talk show host.

[TXBRONC]

Orlando Franklin spent about 20 minutes on the radio talking about his contract negotiations for the Broncos. I wasn't there talking to his agent. That's what he said.

He's been retired for a while now, and there's no reason for him to lie about it now that he's a sports talk show host.

Well that's one side to story but that doesn't make it gospel truth because it's still only one side of the story.

[Cugel]

Well that's one side to story but that doesn't make it gospel truth because it's still only one side of the story.

Well, they certainly did sign Donald Stephenson, and what Orlando says they said to him is what they did say when they signed Stephenson. They thought they had gotten a steal. They thought the Chiefs undervalued Stephenson.

Turns out the Chiefs knew what they were doing in getting rid of him, because Stephenson took his salary and then retired but didn't tell anybody.

[Jsteve01]

Well, they certainly did sign Donald Stephenson, and what Orlando says they said to him is what they did say when they signed Stephenson. They thought they had gotten a steal. They thought the Chiefs undervalued Stephenson.

Turns out the Chiefs knew what they were doing in getting rid of him, because Stephenson took his salary and then retired but didn't tell anybody.

Say whatever you want about him as a postseason coach, but Andy Reid is one of the top n evaluators in the league. People like guys like John Dorsey. While Andy Reid is the guy that evaluates all those people. One thing I learned when I lived in Philadelphia was it if Andy Reid let somebody walk then you're best off letting that guy not be on your team.

[Cugel]

Say whatever you want about him as a postseason coach, but Andy Reid is one of the top n evaluators in the league. People like guys like John Dorsey. While Andy Reid is the guy that evaluates all those people. One thing I learned when I lived in Philadelphia was it if Andy Reid let somebody walk then you're best off letting that guy not be on your team.

That's what the Broncos learned. Stephenson wasn't so much washed up though as over achieving.

Elway keeps doing this though, he did it with Case Keenum.

There were two schools of thought about Keenum. One, he'd achieved a "break-through season" and now he was going to play at the high level he did in MN. Two, he had a career season, and would revert to the norm.

We know which one Elway believed and which one was right. :tsk:

[Simple Jaded]

https://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/depthchart/DEN

The Broncos depth on OL is hot ******* garbage, one draft pick and he’s a speed bump. This FO is completely arrogant.

Come time to answer questions about depth we will no doubt hear about how the “best OL coach (2nd best) in the NFL loves his former (scrub) Stealer Jake Rodgers”.

[Cugel]

"Privately, some people close to the Dolphins waited to see who signed James with the same eager anticipation with which you wait to see who sits on the seat with the whoopie cushion," Benoit wrote. "They believe a rude surprise awaits that GM. Turns out the GM is John Elway. He won’t hear the whoopie cushion until later down the road, but the Dolphins are already laughing. You can understand why Elway made the move; right tackles are hard to find, and playing with a bad one can significantly hinder your scheme. But the belief by some in Miami was that other teams wouldn’t know just how much energy was spent each week gameplanning ways to hide and help James. He’s not quick or nimble enough to get out in space in the screen game, and he’s prone to breakdowns (both physical and mental) in pass protection."

The Dolphins aren't in a position to laugh at anyone. When was the last time they won their division? I actually can't remember. Probably some time before Tom Brady? The fish rots from the head.

The Broncos idea is that Mike Munchak can coach this guy up to being a good RT. He's done it everywhere else he's gone, but as for here we'll have to see.

I'm much more worried about LT when Bolles has been terrabad and they're expecting some kind of miracle turnaround.

[TXBRONC]

The Dolphins aren't in a position to laugh at anyone. When was the last time they won their division? I actually can't remember. Probably some time before Tom Brady? The fish rots from the head.

The Broncos idea is that Mike Munchak can coach this guy up to being a good RT. He's done it everywhere else he's gone, but as for here we'll have to see.

I'm much more worried about LT when Bolles has been terrabad and they're expecting some kind of miracle turnaround.

So Munchak might be able to help James get better, but not Bolles?

[Freyaka]

The Dolphins aren't in a position to laugh at anyone. When was the last time they won their division? I actually can't remember. Probably some time before Tom Brady? The fish rots from the head.

The Broncos idea is that Mike Munchak can coach this guy up to being a good RT. He's done it everywhere else he's gone, but as for here we'll have to see.

I'm much more worried about LT when Bolles has been terrabad and they're expecting some kind of miracle turnaround.

Bolles hasn't been as bad as people love to claim...Has he struggled? Yes, but he's grown a lot since he got here and now he actually has a coach that doesn't have loose rocks rattling around in his head to learn from.

[Shazam!]

The Dolphins aren't in a position to laugh at anyone. When was the last time they won their division? I actually can't remember. Probably some time before Tom Brady? The fish rots from the head.

The Broncos idea is that Mike Munchak can coach this guy up to being a good RT. He's done it everywhere else he's gone, but as for here we'll have to see.

I'm much more worried about LT when Bolles has been terrabad and they're expecting some kind of miracle turnaround.

Bolles hasn't been as bad as people love to claim...Has he struggled? Yes, but he's grown a lot since he got here and now he actually has a coach that doesn't have loose rocks rattling around in his head to learn from.

All the penalties is what kills Bolles

[Buff]

Bolles has led the league in holding for two straight years - if he's improved, I haven't seen it translate to production on Sundays.

[Freyaka]

Bolles has led the league in holding for two straight years - if he's improved, I haven't seen it translate to production on Sundays.

That's because your only metric is penalties. That can be coached out of him. He did well against the run and while not great against pass did improve last year.

I have faith in Munch's coaching abilities to take him to a higher level of play going forward.

[Buff]

That's because your only metric is penalties. That can be coached out of him. He did well against the run and while not great against pass did improve last year.

I have faith in Munch's coaching abilities to take him to a higher level of play going forward.

Yeah, there's the holding, and then there's also him getting beat over and over again.

His dumb tweet about how they finally got him a left guard tells me that he's as clueless as he's ever been. I think Dalton Risner is your future left tackle.

But I hope you're right.

[underrated29]

Yeah, there's the holding, and then there's also him getting beat over and over again.

His dumb tweet about how they finally got him a left guard tells me that he's as clueless as he's ever been. I think Dalton Risner is your future left tackle.

But I hope you're right.



90% of the time bolles does his job. Hes fine.
Dalton does not have quick enough feet to be a LT


There are so few legit good LTs in the league right now too. The real good ones go Top 10. And even those are somewhat shaky.

[Cugel]

On Monday, Mark Schlereth compared Bolles to fellow former first-round pick Paxton Lynch, calling his play a “detriment” to the Broncos.

“It’s not good enough, and it’s the same mistakes that we saw last year,” Schlereth said. “It hasn’t improved.”

Schlereth said it comes down to Bolles not being able to process what he sees quickly enough to make the right play.

“I watch him and he makes the same mistakes. The same lack of awareness. The understanding of pinch. What’s going to happen in this situation,” Schlereth said. “He doesn’t put himself in a position to win. And it’s constant.”

Ultimately, Schlereth said he’d sacrifice whatever athletic edge Bolles has for someone who knows how to play the position.

“For whatever reason, between the coaching and the on-field playing, it doesn’t register,” Schlereth said. “… We’ll lose some athleticism. I’m fine with that if I can find a guy who can play.

Pretty much this. :coffee:

[Shazam!]

Schlereth has stated many times about the horrific play of Bolles and the entire OLine. I still think Munchak is the best offseason grab.

[Timmy!]

Lol. Reaching Stink.

[Nomad]

Schlereth has stated many times about the horrific play of Bolles and the entire OLine. I still think Munchak is the best offseason grab.

Let's see what this coaching staff can do before throwing in the towel on Bolles.

[Nomad]

I wonder if Bolles pees himself on the field?

[Shazam!]

Schlereth has stated many times about the horrific play of Bolles and the entire OLine. I still think Munchak is the best offseason grab.

Let's see what this coaching staff can do before throwing in the towel on Bolles.

I have no doubt they will be improved. This team will be unrecognizable from the last two years.

[TXBRONC]

Pretty much this. :coffee:

Since he's not on the coaching I wait for them to make the decision. :coffee:

[Cugel]

Since he's not on the coaching I wait for them to make the decision. :coffee:

They already made the decision when Elway drafted him. When has Elway ever admitted that his brilliant draft picks were busts -- until their utter failure forced him to do so?

Example #1: Paxton. When Elway failed to draft a QB in 2018 draft he was asked why. His answer: "We're not kicking Paxton to the curb." He still insisted on developing Paxton -- even though everybody in the known universe not named John Elway could see he was a bust. He refused to admit it and insisted they give him one more chance in training camp and the pre-season. It was hopeless of course.

Just ego and a refusal to admit mistakes. Bolles is something similar. He's better than Paxton but not starter caliber LT and he's certainly not lived up to his 1st round draft pick. They will stick with him until he proves conclusively that he can't do it. They didn't get anybody who can replace him at LT in case he busts again, so he's your stater. It's either going to work or its not.

Unless he turns it completely around this off-season this will be the year he proves he can't play in this league and they have to move him to G or something.

[Simple Jaded]

God forbid Bolles gets hurt.

[Elevation inc]

They already made the decision when Elway drafted him. When has Elway ever admitted that his brilliant draft picks were busts -- until their utter failure forced him to do so?

Example #1: Paxton. When Elway failed to draft a QB in 2018 draft he was asked why. His answer: "We're not kicking Paxton to the curb." He still insisted on developing Paxton -- even though everybody in the known universe not named John Elway could see he was a bust. He refused to admit it and insisted they give him one more chance in training camp and the pre-season. It was hopeless of course.

Just ego and a refusal to admit mistakes. Bolles is something similar. He's better than Paxton but not starter caliber LT and he's certainly not lived up to his 1st round draft pick. They will stick with him until he proves conclusively that he can't do it. They didn't get anybody who can replace him at LT in case he busts again, so he's your stater. It's either going to work or its not.

Unless he turns it completely around this off-season this will be the year he proves he can't play in this league and they have to move him to G or something.


There are actually very little quality starting LT's in the League. even more so at RT, they just aren't developed very well in college anymore with all the gadget offenses and spread looks.....For me Bolles wasn't a bad pick, and its actually a saving grace we have him, as the FA class and draft class were pretty thin as well. To me he is a avg starting LT that needs to be more consistent, he has flashes of brilliance followed by dumb obnoxious mistakes......hopefully Munchack will be a help here. If not we move on.....

The only true draft pick I think Elway refused to give up on has been Paxton, Bolles cares about his craft he just Ain't amazing at it. Paxton gave zero shit about his craft and wasn't very good either.....

Don't get it wrong though, our OL is not close to strong, but our starting options with Munchack can provide a solid OL....if there are any injuries though we could be screwed.....

[Nomad]

Munchak sees potential.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/05/26/mike-munchak-hopes-to-develop-something-with-garett-bolles/#comments

[Shazam!]

Like I said, the Coaching Staff and VJ did far more damage setting the Franchise back there is no barometer for this. Again, Elways fault too, but VJ was his biggest mistake. Im thrilled with Fangio and Elway realizing his mistakes.

All it will take is some success this year to erase the last two years.

If they don't finish 9-7 at least with the minimum of a promise of something to build on for the future, then the Season was another lost year.

[Cugel]

There are actually very little quality starting LT's in the League. even more so at RT, they just aren't developed very well in college anymore with all the gadget offenses and spread looks.....For me Bolles wasn't a bad pick, and its actually a saving grace we have him, as the FA class and draft class were pretty thin as well. To me he is a avg starting LT that needs to be more consistent, he has flashes of brilliance followed by dumb obnoxious mistakes......hopefully Munchack will be a help here. If not we move on.....

The only true draft pick I think Elway refused to give up on has been Paxton, Bolles cares about his craft he just Ain't amazing at it. Paxton gave zero shit about his craft and wasn't very good either.....

Don't get it wrong though, our OL is not close to strong, but our starting options with Munchack can provide a solid OL....if there are any injuries though we could be screwed.....

Everything on that OL should be fine IF Bolles is OK at LT. It all depends on that.

At LG Dalton Risner is penciled in as starter already.

At C they expect Connor McGovern to take over and be adequate in replacement of Paradis. It's his job not to have too much of a drop off in play at the C position. It's a gamble not re-signing Paradis, and one they may come to regret if McGovern doesn't do well. But, for now they think they're fine at C.

At RG -- Elijah Wilkinson? A wild stab in the dark there. If they don't keep Ron Leary and move him to RG, and cutting Leary would cost them around $7 million, but keeping him will cost them $9m.

I don't know that Elway views Ron Leary as being worth $9.2 million this season. That is wildly overpaying considering how injured he's been, and not playing great when he was on the field. Definitely under-performing expectations was our Ron Leary, for whatever reason. Entering into his contract year he would like to change that, but I can't believe they will agree to pay him $9.2m.

I would think they would try and re-negotiate him downward, but they could just bite the bullet and keep him around for his last year because they're already into him for $7.1 million. That's the dead cap hit if they let him go.

So they might conclude: "might as well spend the additional $2.1 million and keep him rather than pay him $7.1 million this season to play golf."

[Simple Jaded]

Risner was playing RG in OTA’s, I believe, the immortal Dan Barclay was running first string LG.

[Elevation inc]

Everything on that OL should be fine IF Bolles is OK at LT. It all depends on that.

At LG Dalton Risner is penciled in as starter already.

At C they expect Connor McGovern to take over and be adequate in replacement of Paradis. It's his job not to have too much of a drop off in play at the C position. It's a gamble not re-signing Paradis, and one they may come to regret if McGovern doesn't do well. But, for now they think they're fine at C.

At RG -- Elijah Wilkinson? A wild stab in the dark there. If they don't keep Ron Leary and move him to RG, and cutting Leary would cost them around $7 million, but keeping him will cost them $9m.

I don't know that Elway views Ron Leary as being worth $9.2 million this season. That is wildly overpaying considering how injured he's been, and not playing great when he was on the field. Definitely under-performing expectations was our Ron Leary, for whatever reason. Entering into his contract year he would like to change that, but I can't believe they will agree to pay him $9.2m.

I would think they would try and re-negotiate him downward, but they could just bite the bullet and keep him around for his last year because they're already into him for $7.1 million. That's the dead cap hit if they let him go.

So they might conclude: "might as well spend the additional $2.1 million and keep him rather than pay him $7.1 million this season to play golf."

The OL is set-up to be Boles at LT, Leary at LG, McGovern at center, Risner at RG, and James at RT, the changes might be swapping Bolles or Leary out for Risner perhaps, Leary however is going nowhere if he shows he is healthy, his salary was guaranteed this year because of his injury last year, he will either be a starter or back-up as we have to pay him this year regardless, so we will use him if he shows anything as it would be better then Dan Barclay me thinks.....Then let Leary leave the books next year and help our comp picks out....

[Elevation inc]

Risner was playing RG in OTA’s, I believe, the immortal Dan Barclay was running first string LG.

Leary will be in there for TC or week 1, i think.....no idea if that will work out for the season, but he has proven to be good before. If he stays healthy he could help us inside.....

[chazoe60]

Bolles is terrible.

[Mike]

The OL is set-up to be Boles at LT, Leary at LG, McGovern at center, Risner at RG, and James at RT, the changes might be swapping Bolles or Leary out for Risner perhaps, Leary however is going nowhere if he shows he is healthy, his salary was guaranteed this year because of his injury last year, he will either be a starter or back-up as we have to pay him this year regardless, so we will use him if he shows anything as it would be better then Dan Barclay me thinks.....Then let Leary leave the books next year and help our comp picks out....

I have heard that the team is very pleased with Risner currently. Looking forward to seeing him on the field.

[Simple Jaded]

https://www.rotoworld.com/football/nfl/player/12684/trent-williams

Yes, please!

[BeefStew25]

Bolles is terrible.

Munchaks masterpiece will be making Bolles average.

[Elevation inc]

Update from Leary at Minicamp is that he is going to stay at RG and Dalton will be LG....

[Cugel]

The OL is set-up to be Boles at LT, Leary at LG, McGovern at center, Risner at RG, and James at RT, the changes might be swapping Bolles or Leary out for Risner perhaps, Leary however is going nowhere if he shows he is healthy, his salary was guaranteed this year because of his injury last year, he will either be a starter or back-up as we have to pay him this year regardless, so we will use him if he shows anything as it would be better then Dan Barclay me thinks.....Then let Leary leave the books next year and help our comp picks out....

You could be totally right if Leary's salary is fully guaranteed due to injury. In either case, $7.1m would be rather a lot to pay to someone and then cut them. It would be a lot better to wait till next year when the cap hit is minimal.

[Cugel]

Update from Leary at Minicamp is that he is going to stay at RG and Dalton will be LG....

That's what they were reporting on the radio last week. Risner at LG and whoever at RG. Leary if he's fully healthy, and if not then maybe Wilkinson.

[Cugel]

Bolles is terrible.

This is correct. Bolles is terrible. It's the consistent holding calls that kill drives. You just can't hold on three consecutive plays like he did against KC.

[Elevation inc]

You could be totally right if Leary's salary is fully guaranteed due to injury. In either case, $7.1m would be rather a lot to pay to someone and then cut them. It would be a lot better to wait till next year when the cap hit is minimal.

I suspect we will let Leary play his contract out, and look elsewhere next year unless he dominates this year, but even then age and injury history make a extension a dicey proposition.....

[Cugel]

I suspect we will let Leary play his contract out, and look elsewhere next year unless he dominates this year, but even then age and injury history make a extension a dicey proposition.....

It doesn't look like Ron Leary is in their long term plans. They are already trying out guys to replace him. Some are bit long shots, but still the intent is clear:


PFF DEN Broncos @PFF_Broncos


#Broncos UDFA John Leglue was one of college football's best pass-protecting guards last season.

Among the 76 draft-eligible right guards with at least 100 snaps last year, Leglue's 86.6 pass-blocking grade ranked 5th! #BroncosCountry

In a recent interview with Draft Diamonds, Leglue stated that he patterns his game after both Ryan Ramcyzk and Andrew Whitworth. Both of those guys play tackle, which Leglue played in college but he also has experience at center.

His versatility will be a plus and in that same interview, he describes that versatility along with his work ethic and football IQ as reasons why a team should take a chance on him.

If he wants to get better and fine-tune his game as an offensive lineman, he has come to the right place as there might not be a better guy to learn from than Mike Munchak.

They supposedly like him a lot, although who knows if that's hype at this point?

Then there's Sam Jones, Elijah Wilkinson, Don Barclay. One of these guys might emerge in training camp as a potential future starter.

[SR]

It doesn't look like Ron Leary is in their long term plans. They are already trying out guys to replace him. Some are bit long shots, but still the intent is clear:



Your "logic" is astounding.

[TXBRONC]

Leary is 30 years old and had has injury problems since he's been in Denver. It wouldn't surprising if plays out his contract and then is gone.

[Simple Jaded]

Your "logic" is astounding.

Can’t believe that they’re already planning to replace Von and Chubb with Hollins and Holland.

[ShaneFalco]

dude has played 32 snaps this season

[ShaneFalco]

https://twitter.com/MikeKlis/status/1200565074399834114?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1200565074399834114&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.orangemane.com%2Fforum%2 Forange-mane-discussion%2Forange-mane-central-discussion%2F2526867-juwanna-james-not-emotionally-ready-to-play

what the **** is going on

[Poet]

I remember being excited for this signing.

[MOtorboat]

https://twitter.com/MikeKlis/status/1200565074399834114?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1200565074399834114&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.orangemane.com%2Fforum%2 Forange-mane-discussion%2Forange-mane-central-discussion%2F2526867-juwanna-james-not-emotionally-ready-to-play

what the **** is going on

We aren’t good enough to be trying to play stupid ass games through the media about who’s starting and who isn’t. Name starters. It’s just stupid. And that announcement about Lock today was just ******* idiotic. Give him the ball. Make him the starter, inside the building and out.

[Poet]

That's a lotta money for a right tackle... But now we've addressed the two biggest holes in DB and offensive line. And I'd rather pay a tackle than a center (Paradis).

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1105305801374220289

Neither of these signings have done anything for us. Meanwhile Paradis is just having a bland season in Carolina. Eh. We were doomed we just didn't know it.

[Hawgdriver]

We aren’t good enough to be trying to play stupid ass games through the media about who’s starting and who isn’t. Name starters. It’s just stupid. And that announcement about Lock today was just ******* idiotic. Give him the ball. Make him the starter, inside the building and out.

Broncos aren't bottom-feeders MO. Especially if you cover your ears, squeeze shut your eyes, and say LA LA LA LA until the bad men go away.

[LawDog]

Neither of these signings have done anything for us. Meanwhile Paradis is just having a bland season in Carolina. Eh. We were doomed we just didn't know it.

We knew it, just weren’t willing to admit it.

[Poet]

We aren’t good enough to be trying to play stupid ass games through the media about who’s starting and who isn’t. Name starters. It’s just stupid. And that announcement about Lock today was just ******* idiotic. Give him the ball. Make him the starter, inside the building and out.

Fangio refuses to get behind and support his QB, and it's ******* stupid. Don't sit there and say it's not imperative that he play this season when it is. Don't say that he was only okay in practice and give him the same nod and support you gave shitty ass Allen and Flacco. Don't act like it's not his team right now and play these dumb ass 'who is going to start' gimmicks. FFS, it couldn't hurt and could only help. I'm sure this is some stupid 'tough love' garbage.

When it comes to supporting your QB, be less old Coughlin and more Andy Reid.

[Poet]

Broncos aren't bottom-feeders MO. Especially if you cover your ears, squeeze shut your eyes, and say LA LA LA LA until the bad men go away.

What if they don't go away because they're our GM and HC?

[Hawgdriver]

Fangio refuses to get behind and support his QB, and it's ******* stupid. Don't sit there and say it's not imperative that he play this season when it is. Don't say that he was only okay in practice and give him the same nod and support you gave shitty ass Allen and Flacco. Don't act like it's not his team right now and play these dumb ass 'who is going to start' gimmicks. FFS, it couldn't hurt and could only help. I'm sure this is some stupid 'tough love' garbage.

When it comes to supporting your QB, be less old Coughlin and more Andy Reid.

You got a burr about Fangio. You think he's dumb. Like he couldn't hack the college prep classes in high school and blinks real slow.

I actually like Fangio a lot. I'm not sure he'll ever be the coach I want, but in the universe of head coaches, I'd take him over a lot of random NFL HC ne'er do wells.

[Hawgdriver]

You got a burr about Fangio. You think he's dumb. Like he couldn't hack the college prep classes in high school and blinks real slow.

I actually like Fangio a lot. I'm not sure he'll ever be the coach I want, but in the universe of head coaches, I'd take him over a lot of random NFL HC ne'er do wells.

He's basically a Vance Joseph.

[Poet]

You got a burr about Fangio. You think he's dumb. Like he couldn't hack the college prep classes in high school and blinks real slow.

I actually like Fangio a lot. I'm not sure he'll ever be the coach I want, but in the universe of head coaches, I'd take him over a lot of random NFL HC ne'er do wells.

I don't think he's dumb. I think he's too cute.

Early in the season and right now he's scheming Von Miller out of pass rush situations and into coverage/contain situations. That's not dumb if it adds a 'gotcha' wrinkle, or is a direct counter to something. It's had no cognizable impact, at least not any that should make anyone go "yeah, I'm glad Von's not getting after the QB," especially at that paycheck he's making.

He had done the same thing with coverages at times with CHJ. It's puzzling, and I don't mean that in a VJ way. Although, if you coming into this season thought one of those coaches would have done that...you'd have guessed...

I think the way he's handled Lock is foolish. I cannot fathom a justification for it based in reality, and I can fathom a lot. This franchise hasn't had a good QB in half a decade. This franchise got a first round talent in the second round. This franchise put him on IR and with that diagnosis it was stupid. We then left the kid to rot and waste time even though he was healthy. Which was stupid. He finally got back to practice, and Fangio buried him. If you don't think young players aren't cognizant of what their coaches say, I think you'd be wrong. Especially when the HC QB relationship seems so important - Brady/BB, Reid/Mahomes, and ones that soured like McCarthy/Rodgers for examples on both sides- and Lock isn't getting the same nod that worse talents and players have.

Why? So you can 'toughen him up'? Why say it's not imperative for him to play when it is. When you have a failed retread and a bottom lvl talent as your other QB's, and you're heading into an offseason where you might need to draft one, don' lie to everyone. Especially when you should WANT this kid to tear it up so you don't have to draft a first round QB, or spend second-fourth rounders on other guys to develop.

Fangio has failed at time management and challenge scenarios. He's failed at crafting a defense that doesn't falter at the end of the game. Fine. Whatever. We can act like he'll magically get better at those things when we shouldn't make that assumption. But considering he's stuck us with Scangs, who doesn't have an offensive identity -Hi MO good call on that one- and since he's hell bent on shitting on our QB, I'd just like it if the old man stopped purging both sides of the ball of optimism.

His defensive ranks right now in the NFL, the ones that we have, are empty calories.

We used to call VJ radio for similar infractions but **** it, we like Fangio's pressers and he doesn't say puzzling as much, or great week of practice.

[Hawgdriver]

I don't think he's dumb. I think he's too cute.

Early in the season and right now he's scheming Von Miller out of pass rush situations and into coverage/contain situations. That's not dumb if it adds a 'gotcha' wrinkle, or is a direct counter to something. It's had no cognizable impact, at least not any that should make anyone go "yeah, I'm glad Von's not getting after the QB," especially at that paycheck he's making.

He had done the same thing with coverages at times with CHJ. It's puzzling, and I don't mean that in a VJ way. Although, if you coming into this season thought one of those coaches would have done that...you'd have guessed...

I think the way he's handled Lock is foolish. I cannot fathom a justification for it based in reality, and I can fathom a lot. This franchise hasn't had a good QB in half a decade. This franchise got a first round talent in the second round. This franchise put him on IR and with that diagnosis it was stupid. We then left the kid to rot and waste time even though he was healthy. Which was stupid. He finally got back to practice, and Fangio buried him. If you don't think young players aren't cognizant of what their coaches say, I think you'd be wrong. Especially when the HC QB relationship seems so important - Brady/BB, Reid/Mahomes, and ones that soured like McCarthy/Rodgers for examples on both sides- and Lock isn't getting the same nod that worse talents and players have.

Why? So you can 'toughen him up'? Why say it's not imperative for him to play when it is. When you have a failed retread and a bottom lvl talent as your other QB's, and you're heading into an offseason where you might need to draft one, don' lie to everyone. Especially when you should WANT this kid to tear it up so you don't have to draft a first round QB, or spend second-fourth rounders on other guys to develop.

Fangio has failed at time management and challenge scenarios. He's failed at crafting a defense that doesn't falter at the end of the game. Fine. Whatever. We can act like he'll magically get better at those things when we shouldn't make that assumption. But considering he's stuck us with Scangs, who doesn't have an offensive identity -Hi MO good call on that one- and since he's hell bent on shitting on our QB, I'd just like it if the old man stopped purging both sides of the ball of optimism.

His defensive ranks right now in the NFL, the ones that we have, are empty calories.

We used to call VJ radio for similar infractions but **** it, we like Fangio's pressers and he doesn't say puzzling as much, or great week of practice.

He walked into the Elway Ellis machine. What do you expect?

[Poet]

He walked into the Elway Ellis machine. What do you expect?

Does the EllisWay scenario stop him from praising his young QB? Maybe, I could see it.

But Elway didn't let Kubiak run over Fangio, so VF had his choice of OCs, has been in the league forever, and has contacts. We got Scangs.

Surely we can agree EllisWay doesn't stop VF from using Von as a pass rusher?

[VonDoom]

We aren’t good enough to be trying to play stupid ass games through the media about who’s starting and who isn’t. Name starters. It’s just stupid. And that announcement about Lock today was just ******* idiotic. Give him the ball. Make him the starter, inside the building and out.

This is about his mental and emotional state. Seems like Fangio is calling him out and I don’t have a problem in this case. James needs to get out there or give back the money he’s stealing from us this year

[Hawgdriver]

Does the EllisWay scenario stop him from praising his young QB? Maybe, I could see it.

But Elway didn't let Kubiak run over Fangio, so VF had his choice of OCs, has been in the league forever, and has contacts. We got Scangs.

Surely we can agree EllisWay doesn't stop VF from using Von as a pass rusher?

He's a league grinder. Good dude. Sharp. Disciplined.

Not an iconoclast like the Broncos need at this point.

They need a very strong personality to disrupt and transform the Broncos status quo.

[Hawgdriver]

This is about his mental and emotional state. Seems like Fangio is calling him out and I don’t have a problem in this case. James needs to get out there or give back the money he’s stealing from us this year

I think he and Callahan started a hedge fund.

[Hawgdriver]

Does the EllisWay scenario stop him from praising his young QB? Maybe, I could see it.

But Elway didn't let Kubiak run over Fangio, so VF had his choice of OCs, has been in the league forever, and has contacts. We got Scangs.

Surely we can agree EllisWay doesn't stop VF from using Von as a pass rusher?

I don't have a comment on their usage of Von. It might be boring but results are what they are. It's a solid defense considering the scrubs they are forced to play.

It seems wrong, I'll give you that. I would like to know what genuine expert thinks--what a Belichick would say. I bet he's be more complimentary than not.

At the same time, what is the identity if a Von isn't a Von?

Identity matters.

[Poet]

I don't have a comment on their usage of Von. It might be boring but results are what they are. It's a solid defense considering the scrubs they are forced to play.

It seems wrong, I'll give you that. I would like to know what genuine expert thinks--what a Belichick would say. I bet he's be more complimentary than not.

At the same time, what is the identity if a Von isn't a Von?

Identity matters.

It's not about being boring - it's about how can that possibly be the correct usage? Even if he's not what he was -and I don't think he is- he's still our best pass rusher. On a team that doesn't generate a ton of turnovers. I'm just saying.

I agree that identity matters. And if it matters then this being Locks' time and being behind him matters. Yeah, we can chalk it up as 'it's just a bunch of words' and that Lock shouldn't need it, but we also hear that football is mental, and I can't think of too many recent situations where a head coach ISN'T behind his young QB who pans out. It doesn't have to ALL be loving in nature - Pete Carroll comes to mind because he put a lot of praise on Wilson but also some criticism. But I haven't heard the HC say a positive thing about Lock, but gives Flacco and Allen props?

Everyone says the kid works hard. Everyone knows he's a talent. Everyone says he doesn't take shit for granted, and he's certainly said the right things while Denver has mismanaged him and his injury situation. If that doesn't get at least a nod from the HC, what does? How does any of that strike you as a head coach you even want around your young QB. If it's not Lock, it might be Tua. If it's not Tua, it might be Fromm, or Eason.

An empty calorie defense is what we have to show for this season. Fangio has been a bitter disappointment.

[Poet]

He's a league grinder. Good dude. Sharp. Disciplined.

Not an iconoclast like the Broncos need at this point.

They need a very strong personality to disrupt and transform the Broncos status quo.

Grinder? He showed up in SF and was handed one of the most talented units in the game. Then it happened again in Chicago. That doesn't strike me as a grinder. I don't know if we need an iconoclast. I know we need a guy to actually bring about a decent offense for the first time in half a decade.

[Jsteve01]

I don't have a comment on their usage of Von. It might be boring but results are what they are. It's a solid defense considering the scrubs they are forced to play.

It seems wrong, I'll give you that. I would like to know what genuine expert thinks--what a Belichick would say. I bet he's be more complimentary than not.

At the same time, what is the identity if a Von isn't a Von?

Identity matters.

do you have a generational talent at pass-rusher, and somehow your scheme is important enough they're going to put that kind of position to run contain and coverage concepts. It's ridiculous. I don't care how great your scheme is youve got a better player. and you can apply this principle to any industry in the world, but for the most part your people are more important than your program.

[Hawgdriver]

do you have a generational talent at pass-rusher, and somehow your scheme is important enough they're going to put that kind of position to run contain and coverage concepts. It's ridiculous. I don't care how great your scheme is youve got a better player. and you can apply this principle to any industry in the world, but for the most part your people are more important than your program.

So sack numbers for a player are more important than points or first downs?

[Poet]

So sack numbers for a player are more important than points or first downs?

If on passing downs and situations you can't consistently get more production with using the player for their strengths for your scheme you're doing something wrong. Von is the only guy who can do contain on the team? We can't find someone else for that and move around our versatile bad ass? It's a form of resource mismanagement. And we've done it a lot this season with Von and his impact is low.

[Hawgdriver]

Because his sacks are down? Is there an actual measure that supports the argument of misuse of Von?

Von's own sack total isn't the best measure unless there is another fact in the argument that makes it so.

Von is very good at getting sacks tho. Seems like you would optimize for that...but I can't explain using results why it's wrong.

[Poet]

Because his sacks are down? Is there an actual measure that supports the argument of misuse of Von?

Von's own sack total isn't the best measure unless there is another fact in the argument that makes it so.

Von is very good at getting sacks tho. Seems like you would optimize for that...but I can't explain using results why it's wrong.

Because the best player on the defense isn't making a game changing impact. He's not just not making sacks, but QB hits and hurries. Those are the types of things that often turn into turnovers. We have forced ten total turnovers this season. That is tied for second to last in the league. And when your offense can't do much, the best thing you can do for them is give them extra possessions and field position.

Again, it's not just optimizing, for sacks. It's optimizing for pressure, and sacks fall under that category. Where else is the pressure going to come from with Chubb out?

[Hawgdriver]

Possibly.

Would need a numbers based argument to evaluate.

[Davii]

Because the best player on the defense isn't making a game changing impact. He's not just not making sacks, but QB hits and hurries. Those are the types of things that often turn into turnovers. We have forced ten total turnovers this season. That is tied for second to last in the league. And when your offense can't do much, the best thing you can do for them is give them extra possessions and field position.

Again, it's not just optimizing, for sacks. It's optimizing for pressure, and sacks fall under that category. Where else is the pressure going to come from with Chubb out?

I mostly agree, but I'd say we're a top ten D this year and top 5 in many different categories. All that with Von doing whatever the hell he's doing, and when he does rush he's double and triple teamed....

So, I think what Hawg is getting at is Von must be getting results or freeing others up to get them.

I don't know what they are, they're not evident to me. How much is our scheme, how much is opponent scheme, how much is Von?

The defense as a unit is what matters. It's not good enough IMO but it certainly isn't scorched earth as you suggest.

[Poet]

I mostly agree, but I'd say we're a top ten D this year and top 5 in many different categories. All that with Von doing whatever the hell he's doing, and when he does rush he's double and triple teamed....

So, I think what Hawg is getting at is Von must be getting results or freeing others up to get them.

I don't know what they are, they're not evident to me. How much is our scheme, how much is opponent scheme, how much is Von?

The defense as a unit is what matters. It's not good enough IMO but it certainly isn't scorched earth as you suggest.

I don't think we're getting results when our guy who should help generate turnovers isn't being put in the position to do that, and we're tied for fewest turnovers in the league.

Full disclosure, I don't think Von is what he used to be. Not a popular opinion, I know. But, I also don't think the dropoff in ability is commensurate with the lack of production.

It just feels wrong. And it's counter-intuitive.

[Jsteve01]

So sack numbers for a player are more important than points or first downs?

I'm sorry, but if that's your justification and honestly hawg you're a lot smarter than that. You know that's not my argument. And you're setting up this beautiful straw man that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. What we're talking about. Is you see a generational pass-rusher dropping back in coverage. I'm not talking about contain on rund owns. I'm talking about him dropping back consistently during passing Downs because we're running cute zone schemes. it's really quite simple.
I don't know what industry you work in. I believe it's a law. But I've got guys on my team that are salesmen, and shipping people, and administrative people, and it would be akin to taking the best salesman that we've ever had in our industry and deciding that he's going to spend half of his time as a warehouse person. It makes no sense. He makes the most money as a salesman. You use people to their strength. Not to the strength of your scheme.

The best analogy I've ever heard about or regarding at this type of situation was from John Maxwell who's obviously a business and leadership guru. And John talked about the fact that tiger woods is inarguably one of the top five golfers who have ever played the game. He's a good athlete. But you're not going to have tiger work on his fastball to enhance his cross training. Tiger woods is a golfer. through and through he's going to do things that benefit him on the golf course to increase his productivity. There is nothing except an occasional need for that would call for a generational pass-rusher to drop back in coverage consistently. Shannon Sharpe. People laughed about his blocking. It wasn't because he wasn't a good blocker see what he did to Derrick Thomas. It's because Shannon's biggest benefit to his team is in the passing game. Mike shanahan understood that. So he wasn't going to have a generational talent at tight end in line any more than he had to.

[Poet]

Hawg wasn't trying to strawman you. I think he believed a missing piece of the argument was the middle part. We had the beginning which was Von Should pass rush. We had the end which was "because it does the most good," but we missed the middle part, which was the how. We had the premise/gist of the argument and the conclusion, but we didn't demonstrate it.

I think that my argument about our lack of turnovers, and shortfields for the offense is the middle part. I also think that when you take a fish out of his water/element, you make it eaiser for teams to scheme against you. Elite pass rushers are known as gameplan wreckers because they can just impact any passing play. If you know when the defense is going to call contain, you can just create more of those situations and all of a sudden you're almost dictating when Von gets to pass rush.

To be honest, I think it's a bad sign when a new coach has to spend all their gravitas or 'capital' so early. How long does Fangio get the benefit of the doubt? His defenses are crumbling and he's scheming out our best player and we're not creating a ton of pressures as we're 24th in sacks.

[Hawgdriver]

I'm sorry, but if that's your justification and honestly hawg you're a lot smarter than that. You know that's not my argument. And you're setting up this beautiful straw man that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. What we're talking about. Is you see a generational pass-rusher dropping back in coverage. I'm not talking about contain on rund owns. I'm talking about him dropping back consistently during passing Downs because we're running cute zone schemes. it's really quite simple.
I don't know what industry you work in. I believe it's a law. But I've got guys on my team that are salesmen, and shipping people, and administrative people, and it would be akin to taking the best salesman that we've ever had in our industry and deciding that he's going to spend half of his time as a warehouse person. It makes no sense. He makes the most money as a salesman. You use people to their strength. Not to the strength of your scheme.

The best analogy I've ever heard about or regarding at this type of situation was from John Maxwell who's obviously a business and leadership guru. And John talked about the fact that tiger woods is inarguably one of the top five golfers who have ever played the game. He's a good athlete. But you're not going to have tiger work on his fastball to enhance his cross training. Tiger woods is a golfer. through and through he's going to do things that benefit him on the golf course to increase his productivity. There is nothing except an occasional need for that would call for a generational pass-rusher to drop back in coverage consistently. Shannon Sharpe. People laughed about his blocking. It wasn't because he wasn't a good blocker see what he did to Derrick Thomas. It's because Shannon's biggest benefit to his team is in the passing game. Mike shanahan understood that. So he wasn't going to have a generational talent at tight end in line any more than he had to.

I hear you man!

We probably agree I just need more numbers to make sure. The reason is that even though it seems unsound and just boneheaded, the scores are actually very good for the personnel we have. So I wonder.

That's all bro.

[Valar Morghulis]

I hear you man!

We probably agree I just need more numbers to make sure. The reason is that even though it seems unsound and just boneheaded, the scores are actually very good for the personnel we have. So I wonder.

That's all bro.

You have a beautiful mind

[Cugel]

I don't know what industry you work in. I believe it's a law. But I've got guys on my team that are salesmen, and shipping people, and administrative people, and it would be akin to taking the best salesman that we've ever had in our industry and deciding that he's going to spend half of his time as a warehouse person. It makes no sense. He makes the most money as a salesman. You use people to their strength. Not to the strength of your scheme.

That's basically right. You know that Von isn't giving 100% consistent effort out there. He's not having the impact he's had in previous seasons. I blame Fangio for not getting the best out of him and putting him in a system where Von can't have the kind of success he's used to.

If they traded Von after this season (quite possible because his production simply doesn't match his contract at this point), he will suddenly blossom for another team -- just like Kalil Mack did when he went to the Bears.

That would be highly embarrassing, but really just another day in John Elway's GM decisions! I mean, it's not like it's not already happening: the Broncos don't recognize talent when they've got it!

(For example see Shaqil Barrett. The Broncos drafted Bradley Chubb because they didn't have a "second pass rusher" to go opposite Von. In only 11 games Barrett now has 12.5 sacks, 5 forced fumbles and an Int.) So, why did they let Shaqil Barrett walk? He wanted to start and they didn't think he was good enough to start. :tsk:

[aberdien]

So sack numbers for a player are more important than points or first downs?


Possibly.

Would need a numbers based argument to evaluate.
How about wins? We evidently have one of the top 10 defenses in the league with a bottom 5 record.

[Jsteve01]

How about wins? We evidently have one of the top 10 defenses in the league with a bottom 5 record.

Not sure that numbers can quantify the impact that extended plays have had on the secondary. No might have access to somehing like that but I don't know where to find it, but just as the run game could help our young qb a consistent pas rush is a secondary's best friend. We are giving up big plays in second and third reads because guys are having to cover for days

[Simple Jaded]

Possibly.

Would need a numbers based argument to evaluate.

Sacks/pressures are numbers.

[Hawgdriver]

Sacks/pressures are numbers.

You think he's mis-using Von? It's so weird that a 40-yr defensive 'guru' would do that, isn't it.

Well, since Von is good at edge rush, it must be wrong how he's being used.

[Simple Jaded]

Parastiff still isn’t worth a second contract, same with McGovern, great move by John Elway.

If you can replace a high-priced veteran in the 6th round you don’t need that high-priced veteran.

Broncos might have to pull plug on James, he’s making business decisions.

[Poet]

Parastiff still isn’t worth a second contract, same with McGovern, great move by John Elway.

If you can replace a high-priced veteran in the 6th round you don’t need that high-priced veteran.

Broncos might have to pull plug on James, he’s making business decisions.

Paradis was a stud for us.

[Valar Morghulis]

Paradis was a stud for us.

Bum

[Poet]

Bum

I don't recall seeing a convincing metric to support this. That being said, it doesn't matter anymore. What matters is that we have our future QB...Locked in!

[Valar Morghulis]

I don't recall seeing a convincing metric to support this. That being said, it doesn't matter anymore. What matters is that we have our future QB...Locked in!

The convincing metric, was science

I just hated how he was a cripple, didn’t practice, then would play and get graded as good yet the line was terrible.....I believe the line was terrible with him because they never practiced together and as a result, I hate him forever

Simples

[Poet]

The convincing metric, was science

I just hated how he was a cripple, didn’t practice, then would play and get graded as good yet the line was terrible.....I believe the line was terrible with him because they never practiced together and as a result, I hate him forever

Simples

Well, I do want to point out one thing. His play passed the eye test. He was a very good center. And while they might have lacked chemistry, we had a bad line because we had horrible players. Bolles is an awful LT. We had no talent at RT. Our guards were also a mish mash of talent and had injury issues. Our coaches were shitty, too. I don't think we can point to Paradis as anything other than a plus. I think you have to point to him and hate him because we always point to the most accountable person in a situation, or typically do so.

He's gone now. It doesn't help we spent the money we saved on him for a RT that can't get on the field.

[Simple Jaded]

Paradis was a stud for us.

He was meh for Broncos, he may well be a stud for Panthers for all I know because I don’t know/care, I doubt it though. Just for shit/gigs, go watch McCaffrey got plugged behind LOS on what would’ve been the game winning drive on Sunday, twice, I don’t know that P-Stiff got trucked but instinct tells me he did.

[Simple Jaded]

Well, I do want to point out one thing. His play passed the eye test. He was a very good center. And while they might have lacked chemistry, we had a bad line because we had horrible players. Bolles is an awful LT. We had no talent at RT. Our guards were also a mish mash of talent and had injury issues. Our coaches were shitty, too. I don't think we can point to Paradis as anything other than a plus. I think you have to point to him and hate him because we always point to the most accountable person in a situation, or typically do so.

He's gone now. It doesn't help we spent the money we saved on him for a RT that can't get on the field.

Huuuuuuuwhat?

Huuuuuuuwhat?

Dude was a speed bump.

[Simple Jaded]

P-Stiff is Denver’s C and VJ gets fired ... P-Stiff is Carolina’s C and Dave Rivera gets fired ... coinkidink?

Nah! Not coinkidink.

[Poet]

I'm usually proud of you.

I'm not right now.

[Simple Jaded]

I'm usually proud of you.

I'm not right now.

You agree with me ... I’m right about this ... these are not the droids you’re looking for.

[Cugel]

Huuuuuuuwhat?

Huuuuuuuwhat?

Dude was a speed bump.

Paradis was rated as one of the top C's in the league, but his injury history made Elway refuse to re-sign him. He hasn't been healthy with the Panthers and hasn't played well. Their OL has been a problem, but Paradis wasn't the biggest problem.

The Broncos need upgrades at 4 OL positions once again this off-season because McGovern is a total stiff, Leary is always hurt, Juwuan James has emotional issues and Bolles is just a flat bust. Munchak was supposed to "fix" the OL but nobody can fix that those stiffs into a decent line.

[Cugel]

P-Stiff is Denver’s C and VJ gets fired ... P-Stiff is Carolina’s C and Dave Rivera gets fired ... coinkidink?

Nah! Not coinkidink.

The Panthers have big problems at QB. Their "superman" franchise QB got pounded into Jelly and can't play anymore. Their T's have been pretty bad and the team has under-performed.

Virtually none of this has been Paradis' fault. ON a scale of 1 to 100 of reasons that their coach got fired, he's about a 2 and Cam Newton about an 85.

[Hawgdriver]

Paradis ... hasn't been healthy with the Panthers and hasn't played well.

Paradis has played more snaps than any other Panther lineman. He's missed about 10 snaps all year.

As far as playing well, it's hard to judge. This is a good write-up that hits on the good and bad. The conclusion from that writer is that Paradis has done well with what he's been asked to do.

https://theriotreport.com/film-breakdown-trouble-in-paradis/2/

[Hawgdriver]

P-Stiff is Denver’s C and VJ gets fired ... P-Stiff is Carolina’s C and Dave Rivera gets fired ... coinkidink?

Nah! Not coinkidink.

Your position on Paradis is highly unusual. Is it personal somehow? Help me understand.

[Cugel]

The convincing metric, was science

I just hated how he was a cripple, didn’t practice, then would play and get graded as good yet the line was terrible.....I believe the line was terrible with him because they never practiced together and as a result, I hate him forever

Simples

The OL was bad with him because the players on the OL sucked, not because of Paradis. It's not complex.

They kept drafting guys who sucked like Garrett Bolles and Ty Sambrailo, while signing big $ FAs who sucked like Menelik Watson, Donald Stephenson, and Ron Leary.

One Dalton Risner doesn't make up for about 10 years of failure.

[Cugel]

Paradis has played more snaps than any other Panther lineman. He's missed about 10 snaps all year.

As far as playing well, it's hard to judge. This is a good write-up that hits on the good and bad. The conclusion from that writer is that Paradis has done well with what he's been asked to do.

https://theriotreport.com/film-breakdown-trouble-in-paradis/2/

I don't watch all their games, I was going off published articles from Panthers beat writers who argued that Paradis hasn't had a good season.

But, obviously he is better than Connor McGovern. I don't remember DTs yelling at Paradis at the end of games "Do you remember my name NOW?!" after blowing right by him up the middle.

Elway decided to go with the cheaper option and it didn't work out. Like most of his personnel decisions.

[Simple Jaded]

I don't watch all their games, I was going off published articles from Panthers beat writers who argued that Paradis hasn't had a good season.

But, obviously he is better than Connor McGovern. I don't remember DTs yelling at Paradis at the end of games "Do you remember my name NOW?!" after blowing right by him up the middle.

Elway decided to go with the cheaper option and it didn't work out. Like most of his personnel decisions.
Is he better than McGovern? I’m only asking because the OL has been noticeably better since the second he took over for P-Stiff last season, they still suck in Pass Pro but they’re much better in the run and the C isn’t getting trucked by smaller DL’s and out-quicked by bigger DL.

[Simple Jaded]

Here’s another problem with PFF rankings, they’re comparing C’s in different systems with different expectations ... in an outside zone the C has to reach block and get then out to 2nd level but even if he gets beat as long as the defender stays blocked it doesn’t hurt his grade, in gap/power if a C gets beat he failed and it hurts his grade.

There’s a reason ZBS practitioners aren’t picky about offensive lineman.

[Poet]

Here’s another problem with PFF rankings, they’re comparing C’s in different systems with different expectations ... in an outside zone the C has to reach block and get then out to 2nd level but even if he gets beat as long as the defender stays blocked it doesn’t hurt his grade, in gap/power if a C gets beat he failed and it hurts his grade.

There’s a reason ZBS practitioners aren’t picky about offensive lineman.

This is starting to change under newer variations of the scheme. To paraphrase you from a few years ago "I hate what they think they need in OL," referring to a past OL coach and OC. One of my favorite aspects of updated versions of older offenses is that OL's are starting shirk the undersized OL requirement.

Regarding your comment, are you sure that's how it's graded?

[Simple Jaded]

This is starting to change under newer variations of the scheme. To paraphrase you from a few years ago "I hate what they think they need in OL," referring to a past OL coach and OC. One of my favorite aspects of updated versions of older offenses is that OL's are starting shirk the undersized OL requirement.

Regarding your comment, are you sure that's how it's graded?
You’re right that I was right about how they thought they needed shit OL and I’m right that I was right about that not needed shit OL and I’m right that PFF grading system is apple/oranges.

They’re grading assignments and ZBS assignments are different, Stink says you can have 5 shitty linemen as long as those shitty linemen are shitty together. That goes to out the window when those shitty linemen are asked to do something else ... like pass pro and short/goal line.

Kubiak has a hardon for shitty linemen, it’s far easier for shitty linemen to grade above their ability in a ZBS.

[Simple Jaded]

P-Stiff was supposed to be “country strong” coming out of Blue Field State ... he’s not.