Legendary Quarterback John Elway Can’t Figure Out Quarterbacks

[Cugel]

This from the website of statistical guru 538.com. Not super newsworthy but this is the slow season where there's not a lot of Broncos News so interesting the National take on the Broncos and Elway:


Legendary Quarterback John Elway Can’t Figure Out Quarterbacks (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/legendary-quarterback-john-elway-cant-figure-out-quarterbacks/)

When the Broncos open the 2019 season, Joe Flacco is expected to be the fifth player to get a crack at the position since the 2015 campaign that culminated in a Super Bowl victory. Flacco’s signing came as a shock to Case Keenum, the team’s starting quarterback last year. But it should hardly have been a surprise given that, in Elway’s eight years in charge of the team’s roster, he has already cycled through seven different starting QBs.1 Flacco hardly seems a long-term answer entering his age-34 season — or an answer at all given that he’s 39th out of 42 qualifying starters in yards per pass attempt over the past three seasons, according to ESPN’s Stats & Information Group.

The Broncos are 29th out of the 32 teams in Total Quarterback Rating2 since the start of the 2016 season. And the teams behind them — the Jets, Cardinals and Browns — drafted quarterbacks in 2018 with top-10 picks.

The whole thing is worth a read. I don't subscribe to all of it, but this point is true:


One of Elway’s problems is that even without Manning, the Broncos have not been bad enough to be in position to draft a top quarterback. This year, they’re slated to pick 10th — behind both the Giants and Jaguars. But with a 20-28 record over the past three seasons, they’re not overcoming bad QB play, either.

[Poet]

I saw that article today and it made me sad.

[slim]

I saw it earlier and thought it was kind of stupid.

He hasn't been able to find a franchise quarterback in the last 4 years? BFD. If they were that easy to find every team would have one.

[Shazam!]

It IS surprising that Denver hasnt been just mediocre at QB... its been a train wreck. But this was the price post-Manning. I knew it was going to be bad... but not this dreadful

[CoachChaz]

I saw it earlier and thought it was kind of stupid.

He hasn't been able to find a franchise quarterback in the last 4 years? BFD. If they were that easy to find every team would have one.

I think the biggest difference is not every other team has had a HoF QB/GM go through 5 different QB's in 4 years with zero success.

[Cugel]

Well the news out of Elway's interview today at the Combine is that they haven't decided whether to keep Case Keenum or not. They are talking to Case's agent about re-doing his contract to lower the price. If he's willing to accept backup money, he could stick around for several years as the Broncos backup - to Joe Flacco.

Let me just say, I don't want Keenum around at all. But, Elway has made his choice. Flacco gives them the best chance to win now. And that's all he's about.

There's seemingly no planning for the future. What I think this means is that the Broncos will not select a Qb in the draft. I hope I'm wrong.

But, it doesn't look like he likes any of the 1st round QBs this year. And anyway, drafting a qb wouldn't help him to "win now."

I don't know. But, this doesn't look good to me. I don't see any use in keeping Keenum on the roster.

[Ground Control]

I saw it earlier and thought it was kind of stupid.

He hasn't been able to find a franchise quarterback in the last 4 years? BFD. If they were that easy to find every team would have one.

So, you're obviously cool with complete mediocrity? I'm cool with it if it would be what is sold at the gates. 'We are the same as every other team but we'll make you think we've got something going on enough to buy our crap and cheer....until we lose again. Then, we'll come up with some nonsense about how hard it is to find this or that and you'll buy it because that's what everyone else is saying. But it's still fun to watch people smash heads and lob a prayer pass, so...buy Broncos stuff'.

That is at least honest.

I'm not saying that Elway can't pull it together. Just saying that if we are to care, defending failure as the measure of success is not the best way to justify said care. We love the Broncos because we love the game and have no choice. Thus, Elway still has a job. That and the ruthless manipulation of a guy with Alzheimer's legacy by those that were left in trust of that legacy.

If only there were such a thing as competition in the NFL and we had more than one team to choose from in aalllllllll of Colorado. Then maybe we wouldn't have to defend Elway's failures year after year. I do believe we are among the worst teams in dead cap money (5th worst), right? We were last in spending on offense in 2018. BFD, right? That is probable the very definition of mediocrity: BFD.

Elway is a business man first and he hasn't been bad at it...but that's only considering that he has no competition. And is guaranteed filled seats, so he can adventure all he likes. As long as the trustees think his name garners more profit than wins, right? Anyway, take care. I think you hit the nail on the head when you say: Broncos? BFD.

[Simple Jaded]

This illustrates two things, 1) how hard it is to find a franchise QB, and B) how arrogant Kubiak is when it comes to “his guys”.

Paul Klee put it best before ‘18 season ever started, the Broncos are arrogant thinking they can win with scrubs at QB. Hopefully those days are soon to be over, I like the Flacco trade on a number of levels but he’s not the prize they need and they can’t keep kicking the can.

[OrangeHoof]

When Hall-of-Famer Ted Williams was made manager of the Washington Senators, everyone thought he could teach this perennial loser how to hit better. It didn't happen and Williams eventually quit in frustration. One of the players said of him, "He never could understand why the rest of us couldn't hit the way he did." Maybe JFE can't understand why today's quarterbacks can't play the way he did.

[Nomad]

Elway will figure it out eventually. I have faith. He loves the Broncos, probably more than any of us, and only wants the best.

[Simple Jaded]

John Elway replaced Pro Keesum after one season when everyone just took it for granted that he’d be the ‘19 starter, he’ll do the same if Flacco fails, so one thing we do know is that he has higher standards than the average fan.

He’s the Executive of the Year for getting a pick for Keesum.

[Ground Control]

John Elway replaced Pro Keesum after one season when everyone just took it for granted that he’d be the ‘19 starter, he’ll do the same if Flacco fails, so one thing we do know is that he has higher standards than the average fan.

HeÂ’s the Executive of the Year for getting a pick for Keesum.

Everyone took it for granted because the FA options were mediocre at best (Flacco), or had similarly out sized performances as Keenum did that warranted extreme examination (Foles). Examination that Elway could have spent on Keenum before matching him with the clowns that he put in place as HC/ OC/ DC last year.

To say he'll drop Flacco like he did Keenum and calling that high standards is nuts, man. He's the idiot that hired these clowns, so where was his high standards when he paid them millions of dollars to control the destiny of the Broncos? Executive of the year for ******* up by giving Keenum the keys to the franchise and getting $500 for selling a 20 mil piece of crap?

Elway has done a good job in some areas. He's completely f'ed some drafts. He did great in the draft last year, IMO. I love his coaching moves and I see those as much better examples of what you are trying to say. He saw he completely screwed up in coaching choices and made better choices this year.

But QBs? There is no rationalizing his f'ups since Manning. Saying one pile of shit is better than the last and saying selling that pile of shit for a can of maybe at best makes him a genius is crazy. Elway rightfully own the SB he brought us but that was a miracle year of crazy stuff happening and good coaching. Still, he owns it and it was fun to watch. But QB makes it happen and he has sucked hard since Manning there.

We should wait a couple more years to judge. He's shown he knows how much he's sucked elsewhere and made changes. Flacco is a clown but if he's a bridge, than fine. Keenum would have been an equal bridge and neither could win us a ring this year but fine. Elway need a home run in the draft this year or next. If he gives us something to chew on, then he might deserve another couple of years.

If not, let's all please hope that the ownership struggle ends up where it should (in Bowlen hands) and quickly. Elway may feel fan pressure and his own but ACTUAL pressure means the threat of losing your job. He can't feel that until the good ol boys get ousted and reality comes crashing in.

Elway has been good and bad as a GM. The NFL is the not for long league, right? Why does that not apply to GMs as well as players?

[Shazam!]

John Elway replaced Pro Keesum after one season when everyone just took it for granted that he’d be the ‘19 starter, he’ll do the same if Flacco fails, so one thing we do know is that he has higher standards than the average fan.

HeÂ’s the Executive of the Year for getting a pick for Keesum.

Everyone took it for granted because the FA options were mediocre at best (Flacco), or had similarly out sized performances as Keenum did that warranted extreme examination (Foles). Examination that Elway could have spent on Keenum before matching him with the clowns that he put in place as HC/ OC/ DC last year.

To say he'll drop Flacco like he did Keenum and calling that high standards is nuts, man. He's the idiot that hired these clowns, so where was his high standards when he paid them millions of dollars to control the destiny of the Broncos? Executive of the year for ******* up by giving Keenum the keys to the franchise and getting $500 for selling a 20 mil piece of crap?

Elway has done a good job in some areas. He's completely f'ed some drafts. He did great in the draft last year, IMO. I love his coaching moves and I see those as much better examples of what you are trying to say. He saw he completely screwed up in coaching choices and made better choices this year.

But QBs? There is no rationalizing his f'ups since Manning. Saying one pile of shit is better than the last and saying selling that pile of shit for a can of maybe at best makes him a genius is crazy. Elway rightfully own the SB he brought us but that was a miracle year of crazy stuff happening and good coaching. Still, he owns it and it was fun to watch. But QB makes it happen and he has sucked hard since Manning there.

We should wait a couple more years to judge. He's shown he knows how much he's sucked elsewhere and made changes. Flacco is a clown but if he's a bridge, than fine. Keenum would have been an equal bridge and neither could win us a ring this year but fine. Elway need a home run in the draft this year or next. If he gives us something to chew on, then he might deserve another couple of years.

If not, let's all please hope that the ownership struggle ends up where it should (in Bowlen hands) and quickly. Elway may feel fan pressure and his own but ACTUAL pressure means the threat of losing your job. He can't feel that until the good ol boys get ousted and reality comes crashing in.

Elway has been good and bad as a GM. The NFL is the not for long league, right? Why does that not apply to GMs as well as players?

For whatever the reason blowing it on Osweiler was his major **** up because

A - He was *supposed to replace PFM

B - Blew the pick because even after watching PM for years and winning it all he wasn't a real Q1

C - His first option he let walk out the door. THEN, picking up Sanchez made total sense as a backup to Oz as the projected Starter. I get why because Elway knew he wasnt worth the money.

I know... I know... but dont forget Simien.

He wasnt dreadful as he is perceived with GK in 2016.

2017 and onward he was the victim of a terrible HC, a garbage time OC and an OL that was a shit show (Watson, another blown Elway move) from the first play in preseason in 2017.

There is no gauge for how bad VJ was or how far he dragged this team down but there should be. Hes is the worst Coach ive ever watched probably since Rich Kotite w/NYJ.

I blame him for most of it.

[nevcraw]

I’ve said the same thing. His only major screw up picking and staying so long with Oz. The rest happens when you are chasing instead of directing. I ‘d love to see the people who are so angry about the down years tell us how to do it better.

I’m sure Elway knows a cant miss and a really good prospect. As most do but many screw this up. Finding one in the majority of ok prospects is winning lottery hard. There are 10 or less high quality QB’s the world. It ain’t easy no matter if you were one or not.

[Ground Control]

For whatever the reason blowing it on Osweiler was his major **** up because

A - He was *supposed to replace PFM

B - Blew the pick because even after watching PM for years and winning it all he wasn't a real Q1

C - His first option he let walk out the door. THEN, picking up Sanchez made total sense as a backup to Oz as the projected Starter. I get why because Elway knew he wasnt worth the money.

I know... I know... but dont forget Simien.

He wasnt dreadful as he is perceived with GK in 2016.

2017 and onward he was the victim of a terrible HC, a garbage time OC and an OL that was a shit show (Watson, another blown Elway move) from the first play in preseason in 2017.

There is no gauge for how bad VJ was or how far he dragged this team down but there should be. Hes is the worst Coach ive ever watched probably since Rich Kotite w/NYJ.

I blame him for most of it.


Me too on VJ, but JE hired him. I'm fine with pretty much all Elway has done and he deserves much respect. I'm even OK with the disaster that was the 2017 draft and others. He just reeeeaaaly has sucked at the important parts, like QB and HC outside of Kubes at the tail end of him being relevant..and PFM. Otherwise, I totally agree. Actually, I completely agree, no oherwise about it. And I did loves me some Seimian. His first year was great and I found myself defending him often. But his second year showed what he was really made of. It was VJs fault and maybe he and BO would be different leaders, if VJ wasn't such a DB. But we live in the world we live in and Seimian was that deer you feel bad about killing because he panicked and froze when death came at him. Elway saved tons of money on QB that year. He saved tons of money on offense the next. Elway is pretty damn good at making money for the owners and bonuses for himself and the executive staff. All good with that but I'm against anyone saying Elway is all in until he and the Brocos are actually all in. Few folks bring that up but it's the underlying factor.

Well said, sir.

[Elevation inc]

I'm pretty much convinced Elway believes he has his next best version of a FA Peyton manning in Flacco. View it however you like good or bad, but that's where I think we stand.

[Shazam!]

I'm pretty much convinced Elway believes he has his next best version of a FA Peyton manning in Flacco. View it however you like good or bad, but that's where I think we stand.

A playoff winning veteran with Super experience available in FA who can throw downfield. Its very similar

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Umm...no

[TXBRONC]

I'm pretty much convinced Elway believes he has his next best version of a FA Peyton manning in Flacco. View it however you like good or bad, but that's where I think we stand.

I don't think so El. If Elway decides to rework Flacco's contract giving him guaranteed money and extension then I could agree with you.

[Shazam!]

I'm pretty much convinced Elway believes he has his next best version of a FA Peyton manning in Flacco. View it however you like good or bad, but that's where I think we stand.

I don't think so El. If Elway decides to rework Flacco's contract giving him guaranteed money and extension then I could agree with you.

Maybe after Denver returns to contention in 2019

[TXBRONC]

Maybe after Denver returns to contention in 2019

Maybe but I doubt it even if Denver does return to contention. I would support it for 35 year old quarterback who doesn't resume of a Peyton Manning. I think he's a much better option as transitional quarterback than Keenum but I don't see where it is like Denver will need him past the age of 37.

[Elevation inc]

I don't think so El. If Elway decides to rework Flacco's contract giving him guaranteed money and extension then I could agree with you.

Don't worry as soon as they see Flacco throw the deep ball in OTA's in shorts he will have a extension prior to the season....I'm convinced Elway only believes he can win from now on with a Veteran FA QB....

[Ground Control]

A playoff winning veteran with Super experience available in FA who can throw downfield. Its very similar

Last year Keenum had a higher yards per attempted pass number. Not saying anything other than that. I can't find the article but I also read that Flacco attempted a whole bunch of long passes but connected less than Keenum.

There is that.

[Ground Control]

Don't worry as soon as they see Flacco throw the deep ball in OTA's in shorts he will have a extension prior to the season....I'm convinced Elway only believes he can win from now on with a Veteran FA QB....

Please see the above regarding how Keenum connected on more deep passes than Flacco last year. Stats suck because they are math. Not debatable.

I've been reading Baltimore sports articles lately and if you do, you would see how silly it is to assume Flacco owns the deep ball or spreads the field. It's actually kind of crazy how much the Denver media hypes this but has no clue. So we have no clue. To be clear: Flacco reeeeeaaaaaally sucked at deep ball completions last year. The fact that Keenum was better than him is not a good thing. Of course, his Oline sucked but if we are to say that Flacco can spread the defense effectively.....well, we really shouldn't say that actually.

[Shazam!]

How have Baltimore WRs been recently?

[TXBRONC]

Don't worry as soon as they see Flacco throw the deep ball in OTA's in shorts he will have a extension prior to the season....I'm convinced Elway only believes he can win from now on with a Veteran FA QB....

We'll see. Elway has drafted six quarterbacks two of which were taken in the first two rounds. There is nothing in what Elway would has done that leads to think he will only be looking to veteran quarterbacks.

[Jsteve01]

Please see the above regarding how Keenum connected on more deep passes than Flacco last year. Stats suck because they are math. Not debatable.

I've been reading Baltimore sports articles lately and if you do, you would see how silly it is to assume Flacco owns the deep ball or spreads the field. It's actually kind of crazy how much the Denver media hypes this but has no clue. So we have no clue. To be clear: Flacco reeeeeaaaaaally sucked at deep ball completions last year. The fact that Keenum was better than him is not a good thing. Of course, his Oline sucked but if we are to say that Flacco can spread the defense effectively.....well, we really shouldn't say that actually.

You're misreading him entirely. Elevation is not a Joe Flacco fan at all.

[Elevation inc]

You're misreading him entirely. Elevation is not a Joe Flacco fan at all.


Thanks for the back-up, I didn't feel like responding to him....I have made it pretty clear to everyone I think....where I stand with regards to flacco lol.....

[Cugel]

I'm pretty much convinced Elway believes he has his next best version of a FA Peyton manning in Flacco. View it however you like good or bad, but that's where I think we stand.

There's zero doubt that you are correct. Elway kept looking for a younger version of himself to draft. Only there are no Elways in the draft, and if there were that player would be the consensus #1 pick just as Elway was. And there would be zero chance Denver would get him.

Elway scouted Andrew Luck, but of course the Colts had the #1 pick and were uninterested in trading. He did move up in the first round to draft Paxton Lynch - who had all the physical tools to be a great QB, but was a goof-ball pirate, and not an NFL QB.

Elway reportedly like Sam Darnold but was unwilling to move up in the draft to get him because of the cost.

The Jets gave up the 6th pick of the draft, plus 2 second rounders in 2018, plus a second round pick in 2019 to move up 3 spots. To beat that offer Denver would have had to surrender two #1s (2018 and 2019) and a #2 in 2018 (Denver did not have 2 second rounders in 2018).

No Bradley Chubb, no Courtland Sutton, and no #10 pick in this year's draft. The depth on this roster would be a lot worse than it is, but they would have a prospective Qb.

Since he didn't do it, he decided to get a veteran who was ready to "win now." Elway is always in win-now mode, which is great if you're a player. It's not as great in a GM who must plan for the future. I don't think this team is strong enough to win any SBs with Joe Flacco at this stage of his career. He had one miracle season, and that's it. And that was a long ass time ago.

[Simple Jaded]

Last year Keenum had a higher yards per attempted pass number. Not saying anything other than that. I can't find the article but I also read that Flacco attempted a whole bunch of long passes but connected less than Keenum.

There is that.

Which long passes, exactly? And against what teams? What kind of coverages? Down and distance?

[Cugel]

Please see the above regarding how Keenum connected on more deep passes than Flacco last year. Stats suck because they are math. Not debatable.

I've been reading Baltimore sports articles lately and if you do, you would see how silly it is to assume Flacco owns the deep ball or spreads the field. It's actually kind of crazy how much the Denver media hypes this but has no clue. So we have no clue. To be clear: Flacco reeeeeaaaaaally sucked at deep ball completions last year. The fact that Keenum was better than him is not a good thing. Of course, his Oline sucked but if we are to say that Flacco can spread the defense effectively.....well, we really shouldn't say that actually.

There's one big difference. Keenum was mobile. Flacco is an equestrian statue. So, the sucky OL affected Flacco more than Keenum. That's a big reason why Elway went out in FA and got a RT. I expect him to draft some OL as well. If they want to run the ball effectively and protect Flacco, they need a great OL. Right now the OL is about the same as last year - add James, lose Paradis. Net of zero.

A lot will depend on whether Garrett Bolles can be trained to stop holding on every play.

[TXBRONC]

There's one big difference. Keenum was mobile. Flacco is an equestrian statue. So, the sucky OL affected Flacco more than Keenum. That's a big reason why Elway went out in FA and got a RT. I expect him to draft some OL as well. If they want to run the ball effectively and protect Flacco, they need a great OL. Right now the OL is about the same as last year - add James, lose Paradis. Net of zero.

A lot will depend on whether Garrett Bolles can be trained to stop holding on every play.

Yeah Keenum can gain yardage with his feet, Flacco slides around inside the pocket fairly well or maybe used to and maybe he still does.

[Shazam!]

Lets face it. Case is serviceable but he was doomed to fail with an idiot head coach, a scared OC, and an offense crippled with injuries and no TE worth a shit.

The job was too big for him. I wish he does well in Wash and he may. But he wasn't big enough for the job in Den

[TXBRONC]

Lets face it. Case is serviceable but he was doomed to fail with an idiot head coach, a scared OC, and an offense crippled with injuries and no TE worth a shit.

The job was too big for him. I wish he does well in Wash and he may. But he wasn't big enough for the job in Den

I think Keenum is a serviceable back up quarterback but not a starter. That aside, I wish him well in Washington.

[Cugel]

Lets face it. Case is serviceable but he was doomed to fail with an idiot head coach, a scared OC, and an offense crippled with injuries and no TE worth a shit.

The job was too big for him. I wish he does well in Wash and he may. But he wasn't big enough for the job in Den

Well, he's going to wind up starting in Washington this year. Since Alex Smith might never play football again, his only competition is Colt McCoy. But, the Redskins are trying to tank for a QB. They suck so he's going to have a pretty bad season. Keenum on a totally solid team like the Vikings in 2017 is good and even won a playoff game. On a crappy team like the Broncos 2018, he sucked.

On a crappy Redskins team therefore he's doomed.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Well, he's going to wind up starting in Washington this year. Since Alex Smith might never play football again, his only competition is Colt McCoy. But, the Redskins are trying to tank for a QB. They suck so he's going to have a pretty bad season. Keenum on a totally solid team like the Vikings in 2017 is good and even won a playoff game. On a crappy team like the Broncos 2018, he sucked.

On a crappy Redskins team therefore he's doomed.

We had him throwing a lot more than he should have been. He passed for more yards than in 2017 but his completion% was at least 4 points lower. He was a solid contributing piece in Minnesota, but they didn't ask him to play beyond himself.

[TXBRONC]

We had him throwing a lot more than he should have been. He passed for more yards than in 2017 but his completion% was at least 4 points lower. He was a solid contributing piece in Minnesota, but they didn't ask him to play beyond himself.

At the beginning of the year that was true by the Lindsey started to take off he wasn't throwing that much.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

At the beginning of the year that was true by the Lindsey started to take off he wasn't throwing that much.

Game logs don't reflect that. It was pretty consistent all year. 2 of the last 3 games he passed 48 times. 2 lowest were 21 attempts, 1 early and 1 late. A lot of 30+attempt games.

Ironically enough he had 32 attempts or fewer in 4 of our 6 wins. The two 21 attempt games were wins. Also won games with 35 and 38 attempts.

[Jsteve01]

We had him throwing a lot more than he should have been. He passed for more yards than in 2017 but his completion% was at least 4 points lower. He was a solid contributing piece in Minnesota, but they didn't ask him to play beyond himself.

I've said this about him before. He's not a upper echelon franchise quarterback. But if you have a good coordinator who builds the right system to fit him like Shurmur did that he can be effective. Bill Musgrave is from Grand Junction, and I know people that know him and I really feel like a big part of his problem this year was the fact that his father was on death's bed and then ended up dying during the season. His head just wasn't in it. Because historically he's built upper half of the league offenses.

[TXBRONC]

Game logs don't reflect that. It was pretty consistent all year. 2 of the last 3 games he passed 48 times. 2 lowest were 21 attempts, 1 early and 1 late. A lot of 30+attempt games.

Ironically enough he had 32 attempts or fewer in 4 of our 6 wins. The two 21 attempt games were wins. Also won games with 35 and 38 attempts.

But what you saying doesn't reflect that Denver was playing from behind quite a bit. I doubt it was by design. The only game I can think of for sure where we didn't play from behind was the game against the Cardinals.

[Shazam!]

Musgrave was a horrendous OC and was calling plays scared, amd Keenum played scared the 2nd half of the season. Recipe for disaster.

[TXBRONC]

Musgrave was a horrendous OC and was calling plays scared, amd Keenum played scared the 2nd half of the season. Recipe for disaster.

Just because a player isn't doing well doesn't mean they're playing scared. Keenum didn't play well but I don't see where he played scared.

[Shazam!]

Musgrave was a horrendous OC and was calling plays scared, amd Keenum played scared the 2nd half of the season. Recipe for disaster.

Just because a player isn't doing well doesn't mean they're playing scared. Keenum didn't play well but I don't see where he played scared.

The second half of the season down the stretch he was so afraid to throw downfield and take chances because he didn't want to throw INTs.

And at the same time, Musgrave didnt want to run the ball and commit like he should. Their constant insistence in 3 wide that they couldn't run? All **** ups.

It was almost McCoy 2.0

[TXBRONC]

The second half of the season down the stretch he was so afraid to throw downfield and take chances because he didn't want to throw INTs.

And at the same time, Musgrave didnt want to run the ball and commit like he should. Their constant insistence in 3 wide that they couldn't run? All **** ups.

It was almost McCoy 2.0

How do you know what plays were called? This sounds like an opinion not a fact.

[Shazam!]

The second half of the season down the stretch he was so afraid to throw downfield and take chances because he didn't want to throw INTs.

And at the same time, Musgrave didnt want to run the ball and commit like he should. Their constant insistence in 3 wide that they couldn't run? All **** ups.

It was almost McCoy 2.0

How do you know what plays were called? This sounds like an opinion not a fact.

How many games did you watch last Season?

They were afraid. VJ said as much by saying they cant run the ball against a stacked box. Who says that?

[TXBRONC]

How many games did you watch last Season?

They were afraid. VJ said as much by saying they cant run the ball against a stacked box. Who says that?

I'm sorry Shaz, I disagree.

[Shazam!]

Case was Capt Checkdown and was so scared to turn the ball over.

Musgrave was terrible should have ran the ball more.

Or it was VJ

[TXBRONC]

Case was Capt Checkdown and was so scared to turn the ball over.

Musgrave was terrible should have ran the ball more.

Or it was VJ

Checking down is not proof that he was scared. I agree that Musgrave was terrible, but running against stack box isn't terrible idea where your best back is shelved because of injury.

[Shazam!]

Case was Capt Checkdown and was so scared to turn the ball over.

Musgrave was terrible should have ran the ball more.

Or it was VJ

Checking down is not proof that he was scared. I agree that Musgrave was terrible, but running against stack box isn't terrible idea where your best back is shelved because of injury.

The offense had no identity and no defense feared anyone on the Broncos.

Case didn't try to test defense and kept his passes short and safe stuff dink and dunk crap

[TXBRONC]

The offense had no identity and no defense feared anyone on the Broncos.

Case didn't try to test defense and kept his passes short and safe stuff dink and dunk crap

It had developed identity as the season went on with Lindsey but when he went down that killed it. Also, his reliable most reliable target (Sanders) it changed what they could do. If you're just going those facts. I don't know what else to say other than I respectfully disagree.

[BroncoJoe]

It had developed identity as the season went on with Lindsey but when he went down that killed it. Also, his reliable most reliable target (Sanders) it changed what they could do. If you're just going those facts. I don't know what else to say other than I respectfully disagree.

Lindsay only missed one game. He was hurt in our 2nd to last game against Oakland.

[TXBRONC]

Lindsay only missed one game. He was hurt in our 2nd to last game against Oakland.

Yeah and Sanders was injured in the Bengals game.

[Ground Control]

For whatever the reason blowing it on Osweiler was his major **** up because

A - He was *supposed to replace PFM

B - Blew the pick because even after watching PM for years and winning it all he wasn't a real Q1

C - His first option he let walk out the door. THEN, picking up Sanchez made total sense as a backup to Oz as the projected Starter. I get why because Elway knew he wasnt worth the money.

I know... I know... but dont forget Simien.

He wasnt dreadful as he is perceived with GK in 2016.

2017 and onward he was the victim of a terrible HC, a garbage time OC and an OL that was a shit show (Watson, another blown Elway move) from the first play in preseason in 2017.

There is no gauge for how bad VJ was or how far he dragged this team down but there should be. Hes is the worst Coach ive ever watched probably since Rich Kotite w/NYJ.

I blame him for most of it.

All that and plus Elway picked Owild, instead of Russell Wilson. That one will hurt forever.

[Ground Control]

You're misreading him entirely. Elevation is not a Joe Flacco fan at all.

Fair enough. I probably missed the sarcasm, not knowing him. I'm sure it was there, if you say it was (no sarcasm). Thanks.

[Ground Control]

Which long passes, exactly? And against what teams? What kind of coverages? Down and distance?

I don't know, man. All I know is that I read a crap ton of articles from Baltimore and the guy is not liked there and his failure at deep ball passes is a constant. As for stats, I defer to articles. I can't find the original Denver article I read that spelled it out succinctly but please read and argue on the follwing. Flacco is top 5 at getting out of his own 20, but mostly sub par at passing, in general. The media hype here is that he somehow transcends when he throws deep but the facts show that is nonsense.

https://www.milehighreport.com/2019/2/17/18226188/situational-passing-stats-comparing-case-keenum-and-joe-flacco

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/joe-flacco/

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/deep-ball-project

I could give you the endless Baltimore perspective but these article pretty much cover it. Please counter with any facts you find, if you are so inclined. Otherwise, anyone in Denver believing that Joe Flacco can actually spread the field is buying into a fantasy. As I've said elsewhere, teams do to Flacco (for years) the EXACT same thing they did to Keenum last year...they flooded the short and mid field and single covered the deep ball...because Flacco sucks...at everything.

Except the playoffs. If Fangio can get us there, then the guy shows up. That would be nice! I'm down for that.

[Ground Control]

There's one big difference. Keenum was mobile. Flacco is an equestrian statue. So, the sucky OL affected Flacco more than Keenum. That's a big reason why Elway went out in FA and got a RT. I expect him to draft some OL as well. If they want to run the ball effectively and protect Flacco, they need a great OL. Right now the OL is about the same as last year - add James, lose Paradis. Net of zero.

A lot will depend on whether Garrett Bolles can be trained to stop holding on every play.

In theory, Keenum should have been able to help his Oline by being mobile but horrible and predictable play calling left him having to be a master defense reader and play caller, which he is not. So, he was erratic and his line had little clue how to protect him. And he had less clue how to make things happen...at least when given the options he had (and his lack of deep options).

Flacco should definitely benefit from Munchak, Fangio, and Scangarello. My comparing Keenum and Flacco is maybe misplaced. Flacco just sucks, and he is not good at deep passes, so he cannot actually spread the field. At least, historically. But! Maybe some magic will happen with Scangarello and I'm hoping Fangio is a master of offense, because he is a master at shutting down offenses. I'm a huge fan of out receivers also. I hope we draft TE early....or, our existing TEs stay healthy and powerful. We'l see...

[broncofaninfla]

Anybody else remember when they used to say that Elway couldn't win the big game until he did? Pretty much the same here. No GM hits on every pick in this league. Especially at QB.

[Cugel]

All that and plus Elway picked Owild, instead of Russell Wilson. That one will hurt forever.

Russell Wilson was short. Osweiler was Treebeard. That's why Elway picked him.
14040

[Ground Control]

Russell Wilson was short. Osweiler was Treebeard. That's why Elway picked him.
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And black. But that may be heretical to say...

[Jsteve01]

Russell Wilson was short. Osweiler was Treebeard. That's why Elway picked him.
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Jaded and i spoke for days about Wilson prior to the draft that year. He had everything you could ever want in a qb minus height. Damn his height was so overstated. That one still kills me

[TXBRONC]

Russell Wilson was short. Osweiler was Treebeard. That's why Elway picked him.
14040

Yeah every team in league passed on Wilson for three rounds which includes the team that eventually took him in 4th round.

[Ground Control]

Yeah every team in league passed on Wilson for three rounds which includes the team that eventually took him in 4th round.

So Elway is just like every other GM? Is this good? What can we hope for as fans, if this is true?

[TXBRONC]

So Elway is just like every other GM? Is this good? What can we hope for as fans, if this is true?

Every GM makes mistakes even the very best. Wilson is going into his eighth season and some people are still complaining about this? That seems like a waste of energy to me. Btw, I think Denver had just signed a guy by the name of Peyton Manning. If you're base your hopes for the future off one event that happened nearly a decade ago I don't what to say to you. I know I won't spend the time doing that.

Btw I did make a misake, Wilson was taken in the 3rd not the 4th.

[Ground Control]

Every GM makes mistakes even the very best. Wilson is going into his eighth season and some people are still complaining about this? That seems like a waste of energy to me. Btw, I think Denver had just signed a guy by the name of Peyton Manning. If you're base your hopes for the future off one event that happened nearly a decade ago I don't what to say to you. I know I won't spend the time doing that.

Btw I did make a misake, Wilson was taken in the 3rd not the 4th.

Well said. I do base my hopes on Elway, as do we all. One decade(ish) or much closer to the present, as painful as it gets. Hopefully, we get another draft year like he brought us last year. He's done pretty f'ing great in free agency, IMO. QB is an issue to be debated in long form but it has to happen in the next two years. Heres to hopes!

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by TXBRONC View Post
Yeah every team in league passed on Wilson for three rounds which includes the team that eventually took him in 4th round.


Obviously, nobody knew that Russell Wilson would become a multiple Super Bowl QB. If the Seahawks had some magic insight about how good this guy really was they wouldn't have just signed Matt Flynn to a monster contract before the draft. And they wouldn't have waited till the third round.

If you were thinking a guy could be as good as Russell Wilson is today, you would draft him in the first round. You would be afraid that some other team would be waiting in the weeds, just like you are, to grab this guy.

It's like a great pair of shoes or pants, or whatever you need just sitting there in the bargain bin. It's day 2 of the sale, and items are marked down to half price there it is. Are you going to wait a day and see if they lower the price even more so you can get them then?

No. You're afraid someone else will see what you see and grab them ahead of you. They'd have taken him.

So, nobody gets the credit for Russell Wilson being so good. But, everybody in the NFL knew he was worth a draft pick somewhere in the first few rounds. He was a reasonable QB prospect and the Broncos needed a QB.

Elway just took Osweiler because he has an Ent fetish. His QBs have to be giraffes for some reason.

He picked Osweiler because he was TALL. Period. He had arm talent, he was athletic, he could move around. But, his brains weren't as good as Wilson's. Wilson was too short!

The Broncos under Elway would never have drafted Drew Brees.

[TXBRONC]

Obviously, nobody knew that Russell Wilson would become a multiple Super Bowl QB. If the Seahawks had some magic insight about how good this guy really was they wouldn't have just signed Matt Flynn to a monster contract before the draft. And they wouldn't have waited till the third round.

If you were thinking a guy could be as good as Russell Wilson is today, you would draft him in the first round. You would be afraid that some other team would be waiting in the weeds, just like you are, to grab this guy.

It's like a great pair of shoes or pants, or whatever you need just sitting there in the bargain bin. It's day 2 of the sale, and items are marked down to half price there it is. Are you going to wait a day and see if they lower the price even more so you can get them then?

No. You're afraid someone else will see what you see and grab them ahead of you. They'd have taken him.

So, nobody gets the credit for Russell Wilson being so good. But, everybody in the NFL knew he was worth a draft pick somewhere in the first few rounds. He was a reasonable QB prospect and the Broncos needed a QB.

Elway just took Osweiler because he has an Ent fetish. His QBs have to be giraffes for some reason.

He picked Osweiler because he was TALL. Period. He had arm talent, he was athletic, he could move around. But, his brains weren't as good as Wilson's. Wilson was too short!

The Broncos under Elway would never have drafted Drew Brees.

By your logic if no one gets credit for Wilson being as good as he then no one should catch criticism for not drafting him including Elway.

[Jsteve01]

Obviously, nobody knew that Russell Wilson would become a multiple Super Bowl QB. If the Seahawks had some magic insight about how good this guy really was they wouldn't have just signed Matt Flynn to a monster contract before the draft. And they wouldn't have waited till the third round.

If you were thinking a guy could be as good as Russell Wilson is today, you would draft him in the first round. You would be afraid that some other team would be waiting in the weeds, just like you are, to grab this guy.

It's like a great pair of shoes or pants, or whatever you need just sitting there in the bargain bin. It's day 2 of the sale, and items are marked down to half price there it is. Are you going to wait a day and see if they lower the price even more so you can get them then?

No. You're afraid someone else will see what you see and grab them ahead of you. They'd have taken him.

So, nobody gets the credit for Russell Wilson being so good. But, everybody in the NFL knew he was worth a draft pick somewhere in the first few rounds. He was a reasonable QB prospect and the Broncos needed a QB.

Elway just took Osweiler because he has an Ent fetish. His QBs have to be giraffes for some reason.

He picked Osweiler because he was TALL. Period. He had arm talent, he was athletic, he could move around. But, his brains weren't as good as Wilson's. Wilson was too short!

The Broncos under Elway would never have drafted Drew Brees.

Actually read about Jack Elways impact on John and then read about Jacks love for Brees

[Cugel]

By your logic if no one gets credit for Wilson being as good as he then no one should catch criticism for not drafting him including Elway.

You totally missed the point. Drafting Russell Wilson is like having a blind date and it turns out to be a super model. That can only be unexpected. But, the Broncos drafted a QB in the second round, #56. They could have drafted Wilson, simply thinking that he was a better prospect than Osweiler. But, Osweiler was taller.

Elway still today thinks that Kyler Murray won't be any good because apparently its some kind of big problem for a shorter QB to see over the line when he's under center, but it's perfectly fine if they are in shotgun, so Murray would be OK if they put him in shootgun all the time. I think that sums up Elway's argument at his recent presser.

He doesn't like short QBs. It skews his views of guys so that he values a guy like Osweiler or Lynch too high.

[Ground Control]

Obviously, nobody knew that Russell Wilson would become a multiple Super Bowl QB. If the Seahawks had some magic insight about how good this guy really was they wouldn't have just signed Matt Flynn to a monster contract before the draft. And they wouldn't have waited till the third round.

If you were thinking a guy could be as good as Russell Wilson is today, you would draft him in the first round. You would be afraid that some other team would be waiting in the weeds, just like you are, to grab this guy.

It's like a great pair of shoes or pants, or whatever you need just sitting there in the bargain bin. It's day 2 of the sale, and items are marked down to half price there it is. Are you going to wait a day and see if they lower the price even more so you can get them then?

No. You're afraid someone else will see what you see and grab them ahead of you. They'd have taken him.

So, nobody gets the credit for Russell Wilson being so good. But, everybody in the NFL knew he was worth a draft pick somewhere in the first few rounds. He was a reasonable QB prospect and the Broncos needed a QB.

Elway just took Osweiler because he has an Ent fetish. His QBs have to be giraffes for some reason.

He picked Osweiler because he was TALL. Period. He had arm talent, he was athletic, he could move around. But, his brains weren't as good as Wilson's. Wilson was too short!

The Broncos under Elway would never have drafted Drew Brees.



Just read a bunch of RW pre-draft evaluations to be sure I was on point with this: Wilson was pretty much exactly evaluated as BM and KM have been. The ultimate point being that it's not ok to draft people simply because they are tall, when superior skill is a factor.

Like the only factor that should matter.

I don't think it's a matter of who gets the credit for Wilson being so good as much as it's a matter of most folks seeing how Wilson was so good. In my own argument, I only meant to point out a failure of Elway. Expand that to every joe schmoe GM that blindly lusts after measurables over talent and we come back to you point. Elway would have never drafted Drew Brees. Just like most every schmoe GM cannot look past 1+1 must equal 2. Elway isn't a 'schmoe' in any other aspect, IMO. But he definitely a fool at picking QBs and is lost in pre-conceptions.

It's not like the 'new QB' is Murray, Mayfield, or the like. That's always been an option. Only fools ignore viable options.

[Ground Control]

OK, so I've just started to wonder about this: How is it silly to have short QBs again? I know the mantra but aren't the most Arian of QBs 6'5"? And isn't the Oline the tallest of the position groups in the NFL, averaging 6'5"?

So how is a 6'5" guy supposed to be able to see over another 6'5" guy (or, a group of them)? I'm a short 5'11". I can't see over someone that is also 5'11". Am I missing something? If a 5'10" guy and a 6'5" guy both cannot see over the people in front of them, how is the 5'10" guy of lesser value? For both, it's a matter of seeing between the heads of the people in front of them, right?

Trajectory has something to do with it also, but that is not often mentioned by GMs and 'pundits'. Either way, trajectory can be trained and 6'5" guys are also failures at this important aspect, so...?

[Valar Morghulis]

Azimuth, body size linked to durability issues, hand size, socialization in the game at other positions through childhood

I kind of agree with your point, but there are more reasons that your average small guy doesn't get considered a top nfl QB prospect than just seeing over linemen

[Ground Control]

Azimuth, body size linked to durability issues, hand size, socialization in the game at other positions through childhood

I kind of agree with your point, but there are more reasons that your average small guy doesn't get considered a top nfl QB prospect than just seeing over linemen

Huge points for the reference of the term azimuth, good sir! But I don't know it it applies, since we're talking about a vertical angle. And I still say that plenty of tall QBs f' that up too. Maybe more so than short QBs, since they have lived their entire life dealing with the issue and tall QBs take crap for granted? Maybe not.

The body size is real though: At least using common sense. But check out this interesting article that went deep into the size/ injury debate:

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/weight-and-injuries

I don't pretend to completely get their nuance but the main point is that bigger people get hurt more, for various reasons. Heavier players put more strain on their body parts and put themselves in more dangerous positions...maybe? That's just my interpretation but the article is pretty clear that larger QBs get injured more often. Worth considering, at least. IMO, just because a radio host or TV sorts caster says something, it doesn't mean it's true.

I have no idea how hand size works and don't want to even research it. It's kind of weird to me but I won't say it doesn't matter. Because, I'm clueless. As for socialization, that's a great point that I haven't thought of...and is why I asked. It's a good point that if every tall, good looking fellow that plays QB gets treated like a winner, the majority of QBs will be tall, good looking fellows. But I don't know if that makes them better QBs. It definitely makes them the majority of QBs that make it to the NFL, but that is the essence of my position. Culture does not make a good QB. Good QBs make good QBs. And a smaller guy that has to fight for every inch, in opposition to the stereotypes he's battling, might just be better by competition than QBs that are bigger. Not that all smaller QBs are going to be better than larger QBs but pecentage-wise, I've seen that 5'10"-6'1" QBs have higher passer ratings than all other QBs except those that are 6'2". Interestingly, 6'6" and higher have horrible QB passer ratings.

Otherwise, here is a decent article on another point: Shorter QBs have to make slower passes than larger QBs to get over the heads and arms of other players. This is real and make allot of sense...

https://nationalfootballpost.com/putting-the-physics-back-into-football-short-qbs/

What'cha think? Thanks for the points and making me dive deeper. It is definitely more than seeing over lineman, as you state...but it's also more than heavy=tough. Cool stuff, take care!