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Cugel
02-15-2019, 10:15 PM
I just thought this talk with Mark Schlereth on 104.3 The Fan was interesting and amusing. He has some valid points. They have a ton of work to do if this Flacco move is going to pan out at all. Like in - whether the Broncos would actually be better off with Flacco than they would have been with Case Keenum. As in, that's actually in serious doubt. Not kidding. There's a real point to this as you see below:


Q: "Is it just me or are the Broncos the laughing stock of the league right now?"

Mark Schlereth: "Well, the reaction around the football world has been mixed. . . at best. How about Vegas? How about the wise-guys in Vegas? And DeHough sent me this the other day, and he said 'the Broncos odds went from 80-1 to 100-1 after the Flacco trade. And I said 'you mean they went from 100-1 to 80-1. And he said 'no. Their odds of winning the SB dropped. They got worse.'

And are you kidding me, but is Vegas telling us that the Broncos would have been better off with Case Keenum? Yes, they do tell us that."

Mike Evans: "I don't agree with that!"

Mark Schlereth: "As currently constructed. Do you think? and I know that the draft has to happen and FA has to happen, but I know where Vegas is coming from. Because if you don't fix your offense do I think you have a better chance to win with Flacco or do I think they have a better chance to win with Case Keenum?

If all things all pieces are the same you can't protect Flacco. How many sacks did Case Keenum avoid? Based upon the way Flacco plays the game and based on the roster he would be surrounded with as the roster is currently constructed, I would sit there and say that there's NO WAY #1 that you're going to be able to protect him, and #2 that there's any way he's going to be able to stay healthy. So there's that part of it.

Do I think Joe Flacco is a better QB? Yes. I do. Do I think it's night and day? Do I think that the chasm between Case Keenum and Joe Flacco is like the difference between Matty Ice, Matt Ryan and Blake Bortles? It's not that big a chasm. It's more like the difference between. . . . it's a small difference."

Mike Evans: "You are just not on your analogy game right now."

Mark Schlereth: "I know. I'm trying to come up with the names. How would you categorize the chasm between those two?"

Mike Evans: "In my blog I wrote, that Joe Flacco is a better QB, they upgraded. But in the next breath I said, don't think I am getting soft on John Elway, because he's not that much better. It's not as if he's some transformational QB. He is a QB who better have a LOT of talent around him, and if you can do that, if you can give him a really strong OL and some real weapons at the skills positions and I would rather have Joe Flacco over Case Keenum. But your point, I can see what you're getting at, in that if you are going to be lacking that kind of required talent, in what you are providing either of these two QBs, then you actually have a better chance with Case Keenum doing more with it, simply because of his athleticism, and his size and his ability to move around and escape some things."

Mark Schlereth: "This is like the difference between a steak burger and a hamburger. You know what I"m saying. It's just a higher quality meat. They're still burger, one's just a higher quality. The one from the gourmet burger factory versus a fast food restaurant. The gourmet burger place is going to taste better, yes, but it's still a burger, it's only marginally better. But, if you said it's like the difference between the Gourmet burger shop and a Tofu burger that tastes like doo-do. It's not that big a chasm.

It's like turkey bacon versus thick cut turkey bacon. It's not real bacon, but it's better not-bacon than the other not-bacon.

Neither one is bacon. We're not talking about the fat back versus a thick piece of bacon. We're talking about turkey bacon. That's not real bacon. Bacon is good."

Flacco is an equestrian statue. If they don't dramatically improve their pass blocking this could get seriously ugly in a hurry, because he wouldn't last a month behind last year's OL. Dude likes 5 and 7 step drops and throw deep down field, and you have to have really GOOD OL pass blocking for that to work.

Even in his shorter pass game he isn't evasive. Nor does he have an understanding of the game like Peyton Manning did. Peyton was a stiff but you couldn't fool him. Practically ever. So, he knew perfectly well every time his protections were breaking down and how long he had to throw and he would get rid of it in a real hurry every time. He was one of the least sacked QBs every year, despite being a stiff.

But, Flacco isn't like that. He just is a statue still holding onto the ball as the wrecking ball hits and knocks it right off it's pedestal.

:laugh: Now I'm suddenly hungry for a turkey burger, just because I'm that kind of guy. Yes, I know. My friends have made me aware. Thanks, I don't need you to tell me.

Joel
02-15-2019, 10:58 PM
Same old Elway Broncos: Our lead-footed "pass blockers" get everyone from a first ballot HoFer to a host of FAs and draft picks killed, and all it proves is that decent QBs are as rare as honest politicians. This isn't rocket science, and Elway graduated from Stanford, so I dunno what's going on here.

Northman
02-15-2019, 11:00 PM
Pass blocking finished ranked 13th this past year. The other thing i think Stinky is missing is the release time from Flacco vs Keenum. Keenum notoriously held onto the ball to long. As we saw with Manning with a quicker release it helps alleviate some of the issues on the Oline. I think Flacco will be an improvement in that area not to mention i fully expect Munchak to really improve the Oline anyway.

Joel
02-16-2019, 12:02 AM
Pass blocking finished ranked 13th this past year. The other thing i think Stinky is missing is the release time from Flacco vs Keenum. Keenum notoriously held onto the ball to long. As we saw with Manning with a quicker release it helps alleviate some of the issues on the Oline. I think Flacco will be an improvement in that area not to mention i fully expect Munchak to really improve the Oline anyway.
With you on the last part, and I'll further note that the year Flacco won his SB he had Kubiak as his OC; he was nothing special before that and has been nothing special since (he just preserved Kubiaks streak of getting every single one of his starting QBs to a Pro Bowl.) I DEFINITELY share you expectation Munchak will dramatically improve the line (though the lines he played on were the ones that taught me the value of a LT preventing pass rushers blindsiding Warren Moon so he can try to chase down yet another fumble; love how Bud Adams kept demanding his team that rarely even TRIED to run draft nothing but run blockers to protect his QBs, but Oliver Luck and Archie Manning probably loved it even more.)

That said, I don't think slightly above average pass blocking will cut it in this league; we can point to Mannings age, but has Tom Brady limped his way through the bulk of his last 4-5 seasons? NO, because everyone knows an immobile precision passer like Manning and Brady needs all the protection he can get to simply stay vertical, let alone win games, much less championships. Quick reads and releases can and usually do mitigate poor protection, but not eliminate it.

Jsteve01
02-16-2019, 12:05 AM
I have no idea why everyone thinks Munchak is going to improve the offensive line as it's now constructed that much. When you look at what the previous coaches did with who they had playing for them. I think they did a pretty fantastic job last year to have them at 13th. And to think that somehow pedestrian blockers. Literally other than Paradis nobody that's at the top of their position

Cugel
02-16-2019, 07:57 AM
Look guys, Munchak might be great, but you can't make a souffle out of Moose turds. That's just a turd souffle.

You need talented players for Munchak to turn them into a good pass-blocking OL. They need upgrades at LT, LG, RG, and RT - badly. None of the old starters is good enough at any of those spots. They aren't good players period. Not even Ron Leary who never earned his $10+ salary and was injured last season. Connor McGovern is a UFA and would probably not be back. Menelik Watson is an UFA. Paradis is unrestricted and might not be back, plus he's coming off serious injury.

Valar Morghulis
02-16-2019, 08:14 AM
Connor McGovern is currently our best lineman, and our best center by a mile

Let parastiff walk

Shazam!
02-16-2019, 08:52 AM
Broncos got Munchak to fix the OLine issues.

Better Coach? Check.

Better OLine play, even marginally improved would be great? Ok i can buy that. Check.

Can Denver run the ball? Check.

Upgrade the Secondary and LBer via FA and Draft? I can buy that. Check.

Better WRs than in Baltimore for Flacco? Likely. Check.

QB thats not afraid to throw the ball? Check. Even marginally he is a better passer than Case.

Can this team win more than 8 games and return.to playoff contention? Thats all they have to do. I think they can. I am liking the moves.

Elway wants to win now with Von while he still can. I am happy they are doing everything possivle to get better on OLine amd improve the QB position. Im getting veru excited about the Draft FA and next year.

Broncos will be vastly improved next year IMO

Shazam!
02-16-2019, 09:09 AM
****ing VJ helped drag this team down into the gutter too. Fangio could be like a Parcells kinda Coach

TXBRONC
02-16-2019, 10:19 AM
With you on the last part, and I'll further note that the year Flacco won his SB he had Kubiak as his OC; he was nothing special before that and has been nothing special since (he just preserved Kubiaks streak of getting every single one of his starting QBs to a Pro Bowl.) I DEFINITELY share you expectation Munchak will dramatically improve the line (though the lines he played on were the ones that taught me the value of a LT preventing pass rushers blindsiding Warren Moon so he can try to chase down yet another fumble; love how Bud Adams kept demanding his team that rarely even TRIED to run draft nothing but run blockers to protect his QBs, but Oliver Luck and Archie Manning probably loved it even more.)

That said, I don't think slightly above average pass blocking will cut it in this league; we can point to Mannings age, but has Tom Brady limped his way through the bulk of his last 4-5 seasons? NO, because everyone knows an immobile precision passer like Manning and Brady needs all the protection he can get to simply stay vertical, let alone win games, much less championships. Quick reads and releases can and usually do mitigate poor protection, but not eliminate it.

No Joel, Kubiak was still in Houston at the time, the offensive coordinator for the Ravens was Bill Caldwell if I remember correctly. Kubiak was only in Baltimore one season and that was 2014.

Dapper Dan
02-16-2019, 10:37 AM
https://247sports.com/nfl/denver-broncos/Article/Joe-Flacco-trade-gives-Broncos-significant-boost-in-Super-Bowl-odds-129142798/

SmilinAssasSin27
02-16-2019, 10:42 AM
The best part of the whole situation is that Flacco needs a beefed up line, more weapons and the right coach. Didn't CK prove that he can be solid with those same things while in Minny?

I'm on record saying the deal is meaningless ling term. And I'm standing pat. But why didn't we just keep CK and do the things to help him that we still need to do to make Flacco successful?

Poet
02-16-2019, 10:45 AM
Because it's hard to run the ball when your QB has a boy's arm. That year Minny ran the ball more than just about anyone else in the league when they were averaging 3.9 yards a carry. They ran it in spite of CK becuase their defense was soul crushing. It's like anti-synergy. Woof.

Shazam!
02-16-2019, 11:16 AM
The best part of the whole situation is that Flacco needs a beefed up line, more weapons and the right coach. Didn't CK prove that he can be solid with those same things while in Minny?

I'm on record saying the deal is meaningless ling term. And I'm standing pat. But why didn't we just keep CK and do the things to help him that we still need to do to make Flacco successful?

Flacco has a cannon compared to CK

SmilinAssasSin27
02-16-2019, 11:17 AM
Because it's hard to run the ball when your QB has a boy's arm. That year Minny ran the ball more than just about anyone else in the league when they were averaging 3.9 yards a carry. They ran it in spite of CK becuase their defense was soul crushing. It's like anti-synergy. Woof.

With improved line and playcalling, it would be no different. That's the point. We did pretty well on the ground last year with idiots in charge and a very average line.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-16-2019, 11:19 AM
Flacco has a cannon compared to CK

And CK can avoid the rush. They can each do something the other can't. Neither are very good overall. The notion that the supporting cast would be the difference for one vut not the other makes no sense to me

Nomad
02-16-2019, 11:29 AM
What does Mike Evans want Schelerth to say?

Shazam!
02-16-2019, 12:14 PM
Flacco has a cannon compared to CK

And CK can avoid the rush. They can each do something the other can't. Neither are very good overall. The notion that the supporting cast would be the difference for one vut not the other makes no sense to me

At least Flacco has a resume of winning that Elway likes. Keenum plays scared, I could see Flacco taking more chanves downfield.

Also Baltimore struggled the last few years offensively, Flac wilk have more to work with assuming the OLine is better.

Cugel
02-16-2019, 12:43 PM
What does Mike Evans want Schelerth to say?

They both agree on this, I just didn't bother posting extensive quotes of Mike Evans.

Schlereth of course was part of the great Broncos SB OL and played G in the NFL for 12 seasons. He's said for years that this OL is struggling mightily especially in pass protection.

Some people get their ideas from Fantasy Websites. Some people are actual experts and look at all the coaches film of games and analyze the OL themselves.

I run into this in my field as well, idiots who look up something on the web and think they know more than me when I've been doing my job for 28 years.

Shazam!
02-16-2019, 12:51 PM
What does Mike Evans want Schelerth to say?

They both agree on this, I just didn't bother posting extensive quotes of Mike Evans.

Schlereth of course was part of the great Broncos SB OL and played G in the NFL for 12 seasons. He's said for years that this OL is struggling mightily especially in pass protection.

Some people get their ideas from Fantasy Websites. Some people are actual experts and look at all the coaches film of games and analyze the OL themselves.

I run into this in my field as well, idiots who look up something on the web and think they know more than me when I've been doing my job for 28 years.

Mark Schlereth agrees with Shazam.

I get that shit at work also. All the idiots taht work for me think they can do my job too and yet they cant do their own job.

Poet
02-16-2019, 01:25 PM
Objective stats over subjective evaluations. Especially when that’s all you can cling to. Objective stats over anecdotal evidence. Denver’s line wasn’t awful last year. Especially considering the injuries and QB behind it.

TXBRONC
02-16-2019, 01:52 PM
The best part of the whole situation is that Flacco needs a beefed up line, more weapons and the right coach. Didn't CK prove that he can be solid with those same things while in Minny?

I'm on record saying the deal is meaningless ling term. And I'm standing pat. But why didn't we just keep CK and do the things to help him that we still need to do to make Flacco successful?

Good question. Maybe it has do with Flacco having better physical tools and a better resume.

Also, CK has one year as outlier, and the Vikings sent him packing one year. Flacco, has quarterbacked his team the playoffs on multiple occasions fwiw.

Shazam!
02-16-2019, 02:00 PM
Objective stats over subjective evaluations. Especially when that’s all you can cling to. Objective stats over anecdotal evidence. Denver’s line wasn’t awful last year. Especially considering the injuries and QB behind it.

The pass pro has been a weakness for years. Elway agrees. Schlereth agrees. But they dont know as much as you do they.

Poet
02-16-2019, 02:02 PM
The pass pro has been a weakness for years. Elway agrees. Schlereth agrees. But they dont know as much as you do they.

What does years of weakness have to do with one year of solid play? I get it, bro. You like narratives. I like facts. You like subjectivity. I like objectivity.

Shazam!
02-16-2019, 02:33 PM
The pass pro has been a weakness for years. Elway agrees. Schlereth agrees. But they dont know as much as you do they.

What does years of weakness have to do with one year of solid play? I get it, bro. You like narratives. I like facts. You like subjectivity. I like objectivity.

OLine needs serious improvement. You can say theyre good all you want. They're not.

Thank God you dont advise this team or Elway.

Poet
02-16-2019, 02:44 PM
OLine needs serious improvement. You can say theyre good all you want. They're not.

Thank God you dont advise this team or Elway.

It can get better, but the facts speak for themselves. Denver spent a large chunk of the season ranked above average in blocking before injuries piled up. That's almost categorical across the various sites that rank line blocking. Towards the end of the season, when the line really took a dive. You might remember, that for a large chunk of the season the fans on this site were pretty pleased with the blocking.

Elway is the guy who keeps trotting out the lines that you hate so much, and keeps chaining this team with shitty QB's, which you often support. You'd think you'd apply your logic better and disagree with his moves, but that'd take brainpower you don't have. And considering the fact that you were a casesucker, and a TS Fanboy, and a guy who wanted Tomlin to fix our culture, even though his locker room is in disarray, you'd think be a little less harsh with your tone.

Shazam!
02-16-2019, 03:23 PM
OLine needs serious improvement. You can say theyre good all you want. They're not.

Thank God you dont advise this team or Elway.

It can get better, but the facts speak for themselves. Denver spent a large chunk of the season ranked above average in blocking before injuries piled up. That's almost categorical across the various sites that rank line blocking. Towards the end of the season, when the line really took a dive. You might remember, that for a large chunk of the season the fans on this site were pretty pleased with the blocking.

Elway is the guy who keeps trotting out the lines that you hate so much, and keeps chaining this team with shitty QB's, which you often support. You'd think you'd apply your logic better and disagree with his moves, but that'd take brainpower you don't have. And considering the fact that you were a casesucker, and a TS Fanboy, and a guy who wanted Tomlin to fix our culture, even though his locker room is in disarray, you'd think be a little less harsh with your tone.

Not a TS fanboy, I wanted him to succeed. He didn't. I wanted Case to succeed. He didn't. I want Flacco to succeed. He will. With the corresponding moves (Fangio, Munchak, Scags, etc) and more to be made, this team is better on paper than last year. Coaching is all the difference. They will be unrecognizable from the VJ Broncos.

Schlereth must not know shit either according to your logic. I think he knows just a little about OLine play.

Jsteve01
02-16-2019, 05:08 PM
Again just so we're clear. The offensive line coaching staff other than perhaps linebackers coaches last year was the best on the team. If you think with all the moving parts that we had last year that them ranked is 13th in the league in pass protection isn't a miracle of amazing coaching then you're completely blinded by the Munchak signing. And again the same thing that smiling assassin just said the upgrade is marginal, and we can't keep treating early Third Day pics like they don't f****** matter. We overpaid by every assessment of every objective media Outlet in the league for a guy who actually threw for less yards-per-catch than Case Keenum did last year. Let's make sure we all understand that. Flacco's yards per reception average last year was lower than case keenum's. So the narrative about the big huge arm doesn't really hold a lot of water at this point.

Jsteve01
02-16-2019, 05:09 PM
We keep making these f****** lateral moves and it feels more and more like Shanahan. The difference is Shanahan devoted assets to the offense, while completely stripping defense. Elway on the other hand has to devoted all kinds of assets to the defense other than middle linebacker which is a glaring hole. And continues to throw s*** at the offensive line.

Shazam!
02-16-2019, 07:36 PM
Flacco didnt have a lotta offensive weapons lighting it up in Baltimore the past 4 years. Lotta production at TE over the years but since Rice has been gone they haven't been the same.

Elway wants to win now while he sees some pieces in place. With more competent Coaching MAYBE Denver could have give better than 6x10.

If Keenum made that throw to DT vs KC the Season may have gone better. Flacco is a much better passer than Case without question hed have made that throw.

I may be one of the only people pleased with this move

SmilinAssasSin27
02-16-2019, 07:48 PM
U r

Freyaka
02-16-2019, 08:16 PM
The best part of the whole situation is that Flacco needs a beefed up line, more weapons and the right coach. Didn't CK prove that he can be solid with those same things while in Minny?

I'm on record saying the deal is meaningless ling term. And I'm standing pat. But why didn't we just keep CK and do the things to help him that we still need to do to make Flacco successful?

Because unlike Keenum, Flacco can chuck it down the field. Even when case was playing good, you take his running game away, he becomes pedestrian. He has no deep ball AT ALL. So no one has any reason to respect his ability to throw down field. That leads to stacked boxes that take the run game away.

Even if Flacco and Keenum are very similar marginal QB's, the deep ball puts him head and shoulders above because it keeps the defense honest in the running game.

Shazam!
02-16-2019, 08:46 PM
The best part of the whole situation is that Flacco needs a beefed up line, more weapons and the right coach. Didn't CK prove that he can be solid with those same things while in Minny?

I'm on record saying the deal is meaningless ling term. And I'm standing pat. But why didn't we just keep CK and do the things to help him that we still need to do to make Flacco successful?

Because unlike Keenum, Flacco can chuck it down the field. Even when case was playing good, you take his running game away, he becomes pedestrian. He has no deep ball AT ALL. So no one has any reason to respect his ability to throw down field. That leads to stacked boxes that take the run game away.

Even if Flacco and Keenum are very similar marginal QB's, the deep ball puts him head and shoulders above because it keeps the defense honest in the running game.

Im actually very surprised this move was not as well received.

I want the young Franchise QB too but now Denver can instantly improve the Offense there should be no question he is a better QB on resume alone. No one ever questioned Flaccos arm strength either. Arguably he has plenty of weapons to work with but he always had good TE production that Scang will def have to find a way. The need at TE just got bigger.

Davii
02-16-2019, 11:00 PM
With you on the last part, and I'll further note that the year Flacco won his SB he had Kubiak as his OC; he was nothing special before that and has been nothing special since (he just preserved Kubiaks streak of getting every single one of his starting QBs to a Pro Bowl.) I DEFINITELY share you expectation Munchak will dramatically improve the line (though the lines he played on were the ones that taught me the value of a LT preventing pass rushers blindsiding Warren Moon so he can try to chase down yet another fumble; love how Bud Adams kept demanding his team that rarely even TRIED to run draft nothing but run blockers to protect his QBs, but Oliver Luck and Archie Manning probably loved it even more.)

That said, I don't think slightly above average pass blocking will cut it in this league; we can point to Mannings age, but has Tom Brady limped his way through the bulk of his last 4-5 seasons? NO, because everyone knows an immobile precision passer like Manning and Brady needs all the protection he can get to simply stay vertical, let alone win games, much less championships. Quick reads and releases can and usually do mitigate poor protection, but not eliminate it.

Kubiak wasn't the OC for that SB.

Hawgdriver
02-16-2019, 11:23 PM
Objective stats over subjective evaluations. Especially when that’s all you can cling to. Objective stats over anecdotal evidence. Denver’s line wasn’t awful last year. Especially considering the injuries and QB behind it.

Eh. The wise man knows what the measure means, and what it doesn't mean. Not saying either of you is right.

If Schlereth wants to dispute an objective measure, he needs to explain what it does and doesn't measure and why that matters. Users of objective measures should be clear on exactly what is measured, and how accurately.

You know in general I roll with the data...but some anecdotes matter, and some subjective measures matter.

I know this comes across in general as a rebuttal or refutation, and that's not what I mean. I agree with you, just want to add some color to the picture you outlined.

Poet
02-16-2019, 11:38 PM
Eh. The wise man knows what the measure means, and what it doesn't mean. Not saying either of you is right.

If Schlereth wants to dispute an objective measure, he needs to explain what it does and doesn't measure and why that matters. Users of objective measures should be clear on exactly what is measured, and how accurately.

You know in general I roll with the data...but some anecdotes matter, and some subjective measures matter.

I know this comes across in general as a rebuttal or refutation, and that's not what I mean. I agree with you, just want to add some color to the picture you outlined.

The data universally showed that Denver was a good line until a bunch of injuries occurred. After those injuries, the line was still above average regarding run blocking, and that's with a limited QB with a boy's arm. We routinely watched Keenum fail to step up in pockets when he had time, as well as take bad sacks in general. Which hurts the lines stats, and his mobility, his vaunted ability to play under pressure (that was sold to us in the past offseason) was no more. In other words, the line had a lot going against it.

Stats are contextual - but blindly feeding into narratives because they used to be true and just citing one guy because he agrees with you isn't sharp. I don't take what you're saying as a refutation - I'm just tired of this stupid narrative that it's all on the line. Crazy how PFM had a bunch of lackluster lines yet they were ranked highly. Okay, a bit too high a bar? Well, Big Ben had plenty of good years with bad pass blocking lines. OKay, too high a standard? Well Watson was a second year player coming off an ACL and had one of the worst lines. OKay, too high a standard? What about immobile Rivers having a lot of nice years in that train wreck in SD regarding skill player injuries and offensive line?

It used to be that fans who touted offensive line were savvy and sophisticated. It's now so common and so abused that it's now a shibboleth.

Valar Morghulis
02-17-2019, 01:57 AM
Anecdotally, I thought we got better after the injuries

Hawgdriver
02-17-2019, 02:04 AM
Anecdotally, I thought we got better after the injuries

Me too.

Anecdotally.

Cugel
02-17-2019, 02:07 AM
Good question. Maybe it has do with Flacco having better physical tools and a better resume.

Also, CK has one year as outlier, and the Vikings sent him packing one year. Flacco, has quarterbacked his team the playoffs on multiple occasions fwiw.

That's basically why Elway did this trade. They were never that happy with the "Case Keesum" acquisition. They were really interested in getting Kirk Cousins, but he wasn't interested - wanting to go to a playoff team.

This year they are all in at Dove Valley on Flacco. They really think they can compete for the division with Flacco and some upgrades. I don't know about that, but that's the line they are peddling at Dove Valley.

DenBronx
02-17-2019, 02:42 AM
Broncos got Munchak to fix the OLine issues.

Better Coach? Check.

Better OLine play, even marginally improved would be great? Ok i can buy that. Check.

Can Denver run the ball? Check.

Upgrade the Secondary and LBer via FA and Draft? I can buy that. Check.

Better WRs than in Baltimore for Flacco? Likely. Check.

QB thats not afraid to throw the ball? Check. Even marginally he is a better passer than Case.

Can this team win more than 8 games and return.to playoff contention? Thats all they have to do. I think they can. I am liking the moves.

Elway wants to win now with Von while he still can. I am happy they are doing everything possivle to get better on OLine amd improve the QB position. Im getting veru excited about the Draft FA and next year.

Broncos will be vastly improved next year IMO


That’s alot of IFs, hopes and dreams

Shazam!
02-17-2019, 06:45 AM
Broncos got Munchak to fix the OLine issues.

Better Coach? Check.

Better OLine play, even marginally improved would be great? Ok i can buy that. Check.

Can Denver run the ball? Check.

Upgrade the Secondary and LBer via FA and Draft? I can buy that. Check.

Better WRs than in Baltimore for Flacco? Likely. Check.

QB thats not afraid to throw the ball? Check. Even marginally he is a better passer than Case.

Can this team win more than 8 games and return.to playoff contention? Thats all they have to do. I think they can. I am liking the moves.

Elway wants to win now with Von while he still can. I am happy they are doing everything possivle to get better on OLine amd improve the QB position. Im getting veru excited about the Draft FA and next year.

Broncos will be vastly improved next year IMO


That’s alot of IFs, hopes and dreams

I can def see it. It IS possible.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-17-2019, 10:47 AM
Because unlike Keenum, Flacco can chuck it down the field. Even when case was playing good, you take his running game away, he becomes pedestrian. He has no deep ball AT ALL. So no one has any reason to respect his ability to throw down field. That leads to stacked boxes that take the run game away.

Even if Flacco and Keenum are very similar marginal QB's, the deep ball puts him head and shoulders above because it keeps the defense honest in the running game.

Again...that's the point. Flacco still needs the line to have time to throw the ball down field. CK needed the line and coaching to put him in successful situations. Same with Flacco.

Jsteve01
02-17-2019, 12:00 PM
The line played out of their minds last year. And somehow we just assume that adding Munchak makes them even better. I like Munchak but lets not forget that his line in Pitt was a lot better than ours with or without him. I still don't get why when anybody objectively would say that our coaching staff last year maxed out the potential of that group of nobody's that somehow adding a guy who yes has been a very good offensive line coach makes them even better. The ceiling for that group is low.

Ziggy
02-17-2019, 12:22 PM
The line played out of their minds last year. And somehow we just assume that adding Munchak makes them even better. I like Munchak but lets not forget that his line in Pitt was a lot better than ours with or without him. I still don't get why when anybody objectively would say that our coaching staff last year maxed out the potential of that group of nobody's that somehow adding a guy who yes has been a very good offensive line coach makes them even better. The ceiling for that group is low.

They gave up 40 sacks the season before he got there. In the 5 years that he was there, they average 23 sacks allowed. He's known as the best in the business. I can't wait to see if he can turn Garrett Bolles around.

TXBRONC
02-17-2019, 03:47 PM
That's basically why Elway did this trade. They were never that happy with the "Case Keesum" acquisition. They were really interested in getting Kirk Cousins, but he wasn't interested - wanting to go to a playoff team.

This year they are all in at Dove Valley on Flacco. They really think they can compete for the division with Flacco and some upgrades. I don't know about that, but that's the line they are peddling at Dove Valley.


No, Cousins was willing to Denver for less money and the deal would have included Shanahan as head coach but Ellis nixed it. This was brought up a few months ago.

All in on Flacco? Hardly, there is absolutely nothing I can find that would indicate they all in. Denver it taking his contract which includes no guaranteed money, and they let him go at any time with no cap hit. That's hardly being all in my friend.

Northman
02-17-2019, 06:45 PM
Again just so we're clear. The offensive line coaching staff other than perhaps linebackers coaches last year was the best on the team. If you think with all the moving parts that we had last year that them ranked is 13th in the league in pass protection isn't a miracle of amazing coaching then you're completely blinded by the Munchak signing. And again the same thing that smiling assassin just said the upgrade is marginal, and we can't keep treating early Third Day pics like they don't f****** matter. We overpaid by every assessment of every objective media Outlet in the league for a guy who actually threw for less yards-per-catch than Case Keenum did last year. Let's make sure we all understand that. Flacco's yards per reception average last year was lower than case keenum's. So the narrative about the big huge arm doesn't really hold a lot of water at this point.

I get your point but it doesnt really mean that Munchak cant improve upon that. Very seldom other coaches are held onto when a new coaching staff comes in so im not sure what Denver was supposed to do there. If Munchak wants his own guys than he should be able to do that right?

Northman
02-17-2019, 06:50 PM
Because unlike Keenum, Flacco can chuck it down the field. Even when case was playing good, you take his running game away, he becomes pedestrian. He has no deep ball AT ALL. So no one has any reason to respect his ability to throw down field. That leads to stacked boxes that take the run game away.

Even if Flacco and Keenum are very similar marginal QB's, the deep ball puts him head and shoulders above because it keeps the defense honest in the running game.


Im actually very surprised this move was not as well received.

I want the young Franchise QB too but now Denver can instantly improve the Offense there should be no question he is a better QB on resume alone. No one ever questioned Flaccos arm strength either. Arguably he has plenty of weapons to work with but he always had good TE production that Scang will def have to find a way. The need at TE just got bigger.

All this ^

Flacco isnt a sexy; move but it is an improvement even if just a small one. Again, i believe if we have Flacco last year we win some of those close games that we ended up losing and probably would have made the playoffs. Think the first Chiefs game, maybe the Browns, etc. So many games we had the ball in the final minutes and couldnt get it done with Keenum.

Northman
02-17-2019, 06:54 PM
Anecdotally, I thought we got better after the injuries

Eh, not sure about that although i did think that it meant other players had to step up. I also think (and i hate to say it) that at some point VJ took over the defensive part and i think that is why we saw some improvement there. Woods was worthless for most of the season.

Northman
02-17-2019, 06:56 PM
That's basically why Elway did this trade. They were never that happy with the "Case Keesum" acquisition. They were really interested in getting Kirk Cousins, but he wasn't interested - wanting to go to a playoff team.

This year they are all in at Dove Valley on Flacco. They really think they can compete for the division with Flacco and some upgrades. I don't know about that, but that's the line they are peddling at Dove Valley.

The fact they were able to compete with Keenum playing last year Manning style football means they can compete for the division. My only concerns for Flacco is the mental aspect of the game, has he packed it in since the SB and getting his money. Outside of his injuries and getting killed in Bmore i never saw anything physically that would show he cant still play. If he can get refocused and motivated (which i hope) than i think we will be fine for a couple of years.

TXBRONC
02-17-2019, 09:10 PM
The fact they were able to compete with Keenum playing last year Manning style football means they can compete for the division. My only concerns for Flacco is the mental aspect of the game, has he packed it in since the SB and getting his money. Outside of his injuries and getting killed in Bmore i never saw anything physically that would show he cant still play. If he can get refocused and motivated (which i hope) than i think we will be fine for a couple of years.

My friends who say this islateral move, I don't agree at all. It may not work out but this isn't lateral move. Just by what both quarterbacks have done in their respective careers this isn't lateral move. Flacco is something like 20 or 30 games over .500 with nearly 100 wins as starting quarterback, I think 97 wins. Keenum is a game under .500 I think he has 25 wins and 26 losses. That's not even getting into the fact he's lead his team to the playoffs multiple times and has Super Bowl title under belt. I don't see how this a lateral move certainly resume. The 'ifs' you mention should be answered in the affirmative then mentally and physically it's not a lateral move.

Flacco was a franchise quarterback but he's just never been elite. I have nothing against Keenum, but he's never been a franchise quarterback.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-17-2019, 09:54 PM
It's lateral because this isn't 2013. What Flacco has done in the past doesn't effect his potential tomorrow. He has been a shell of his barely above average self for 3 years now and is only getting older...and pricier.

TXBRONC
02-17-2019, 10:37 PM
It's lateral because this isn't 2013. What Flacco has done in the past doesn't effect his potential tomorrow. He has been a shell of his barely above average self for 3 years now and is only getting older...and pricier.

SA somewhere in here didn't you something to the effect that Keenum has proven that if you put enough talent around he'll be successful. That sounds like looking at his past in order to predict his potential for the future. If we can't do that for Flacco then we shouldn't do it for Keenum either. If this is lateral move and we put enough talent on the field that each could successful, then edge would still go Flacco because he makes throws that Keenum can't make.

Flacco may be barely above average, but has even been that for most of his career.

We'll just have just to disagree for at least the time being as what kind of move this is. Although, I think we agree that Flacco isn't a long term solution and that taking quarterback high in the coming draft is about same as taken one in last year.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-17-2019, 10:45 PM
SA somewhere in here didn't you something to the effect that Keenum has proven that if you put enough talent around he'll be successful. That sounds like looking at his past in order to predict his potential for the future. If we can't do that for Flacco then we shouldn't do it for Keenum either. If this is lateral move and we put enough talent on the field that each could successful, then edge would still go Flacco because he makes throws that Keenum can't make.

Flacco may be barely above average, but has even been that for most of his career.

We'll just have just to disagree for at least the time being as what kind of move this is. Although, I think we agree that Flacco isn't a long term solution and that taking quarterback high in the coming draft is about same as taken one in last year.
I said it was the same for both of them, but yes. Difference here is that Keenum had success as recent as 2017. Then decreased quality supporting cast and bad coaching in 2018. So it stands to reason he may actually have the better chance at success with a good support system. I, of course, don't know that as fact. Perhaps I should have been a bit clearer about the past success. My analogy would be we don't want Montana right now simply because he has 4 rings. Or even Manning. Their success means nothing in 2019. I feel the same for Flacco. He has clearly had the better career. I won't ever dispute that. But IMO that means nothing for his time in Denver as a lot of time has passed since he has performed well. Enough time for me to consider him to be on the declining portion of his career.

But I maintain my first comment after the trade. Hate em both...trade changes zero going forward.

Cugel
02-17-2019, 11:31 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Jsteve01 View Post
Again just so we're clear. The offensive line coaching staff other than perhaps linebackers coaches last year was the best on the team. If you think with all the moving parts that we had last year that them ranked is 13th in the league in pass protection isn't a miracle of amazing coaching then you're completely blinded by the Munchak signing. And again the same thing that smiling assassin just said the upgrade is marginal, and we can't keep treating early Third Day pics like they don't f****** matter. We overpaid by every assessment of every objective media Outlet in the league for a guy who actually threw for less yards-per-catch than Case Keenum did last year. Let's make sure we all understand that. Flacco's yards per reception average last year was lower than case keenum's. So the narrative about the big huge arm doesn't really hold a lot of water at this point.

That is one of the most worthless statistics ever. The Broncos "ranked 13th in pass protection"? That's completely insane. Did you even watch the season? They were terrible. All commentary on the OL pointed out that they have been terrible for years. Former Broncos players just said the same thing. Elvis Dumervil was particularly brutal in insisting that Flacco has no chance of success unless Denver builds a powerful OL and offensive weapons around him.

Keenum wasn't sacked particularly often because they didn't try a lot of 5 and 7 step drops. They were throwing quick opening timing passes because their OL couldn't hold up long enough. Keenum sucked, but the biggest part of his sucking was that in MN he had a really good OL plus big play TE to throw to, etc. In Denver they got rid of DT, and Sanders was injured. No Denver TE has been a pass catching threat since Julius Thomas.

They weren't trying to force the ball downfield and opposing defenses were stuffing them

Joel
02-18-2019, 01:32 AM
No Joel, Kubiak was still in Houston at the time, the offensive coordinator for the Ravens was Bill Caldwell if I remember correctly. Kubiak was only in Baltimore one season and that was 2014.
Right you are; dunno how I merged the 2012 and 2014 Ravens seasons. Probably because I have little faith in Flacco as anything more than a guy who had a SINGLE great fluke season thanks to Rahim Moore et al. He's their (now our) answer to Daryle Lamonica.

Shazam!
02-18-2019, 06:20 AM
Yeah Flacco had weapons galore in Baltimore the past few years #rolleyes

Similar to the Broncos Ozzie neglected the Baltimore Off while continuing to try and build defense.

TXBRONC
02-18-2019, 10:05 AM
Right you are; dunno how I merged the 2012 and 2014 Ravens seasons. Probably because I have little faith in Flacco as anything more than a guy who had a SINGLE great fluke season thanks to Rahim Moore et al. He's their (now our) answer to Daryle Lamonica.

No biggie.

Flacco has been successful for more than just that one season. Flacco has never been an elite quarterback but he was a franchise quarterback he's not going be that in Denver but with upgrading I think we can much more competitive. Some of the close games we lost last maybe win them this year.

TXBRONC
02-18-2019, 10:11 AM
Yeah Flacco had weapons galore in Baltimore the past few years #rolleyes

Similar to the Broncos Ozzie neglected the Baltimore Off while continuing to try and build defense.

I know Flacco has been solid when he's had a good running game.

Jsteve01
02-18-2019, 08:59 PM
That is one of the most worthless statistics ever. The Broncos "ranked 13th in pass protection"? That's completely insane. Did you even watch the season? They were terrible. All commentary on the OL pointed out that they have been terrible for years. Former Broncos players just said the same thing. Elvis Dumervil was particularly brutal in insisting that Flacco has no chance of success unless Denver builds a powerful OL and offensive weapons around him.

Keenum wasn't sacked particularly often because they didn't try a lot of 5 and 7 step drops. They were throwing quick opening timing passes because their OL couldn't hold up long enough. Keenum sucked, but the biggest part of his sucking was that in MN he had a really good OL plus big play TE to throw to, etc. In Denver they got rid of DT, and Sanders was injured. No Denver TE has been a pass catching threat since Julius Thomas.

They weren't trying to force the ball downfield and opposing defenses were stuffing them

Yeah eff quantifiable stuff like stats and rankings. Ill go with my eyes and prejudices because thats sound logic and good decision making. Youre so obtuse some times that you dont even realize what youre arguing. The line needs a huge infusion of talent. That said the broncos did rank middle of the pack in pass pro and Philip Lindsay was first in the league in ypc vs a stacked box. But by all means feel free to ignore facts and continue with your misinformed opinion. My point was that the line played wsy better than they should have. Not that they were great.

Shazam!
02-18-2019, 10:25 PM
Only here is the Broncos OLine not just mediocre but it's somehow a strength?

Like no one watched a single game down the stretch?

Great running Backs will bloat OLine stats.

So by Keenums numbers, he had a great year on forst glance huh?

Stats don't tell the whole story

As the Season and injuries wore on they were exposed. It is a great area of need with the possibility of big changes coming, whixh I hope is positive with Munchak.

Poet
02-18-2019, 11:48 PM
I like how the guy who by far and away doesn't understand QB play asks if people watch the games.

Jsteve01
02-19-2019, 01:26 AM
Only here is the Broncos OLine not just mediocre but it's somehow a strength?

Like no one watched a single game down the stretch?

Great running Backs will bloat OLine stats.

So by Keenums numbers, he had a great year on forst glance huh?

Stats don't tell the whole story

As the Season and injuries wore on they were exposed. It is a great area of need with the possibility of big changes coming, whixh I hope is positive with Munchak.
Lol i just said it needed work

Shazam!
02-19-2019, 05:50 AM
I like how the guy who by far and away doesn't understand QB play asks if people watch the games.

Why because i wanted Case and TS to succeed? I wanted Orton to succeed too.

Been watching this team like 30 years before you. Hell, you were a fan of another team.

You don't know what you are seeing if you somehow are trying to convince people that the OLine is a STRENGTH when you can listen to every analyst or any talking head break down how the Line is a problem spot and has been for YEARS now. Its not a strength. Things fell apart down the stretch.

According to your logic Flacco should do well here then.

Cugel
02-19-2019, 07:07 AM
Why because i wanted Case and TS to succeed? I wanted Orton to succeed too.

Been watching this team like 30 years before you. Hell, you were a fan of another team.

You don't know what you are seeing if you somehow are trying to convince people that the OLine is a STRENGTH when you can listen to every analyst or any talking head break down how the Line is a problem spot and has been for YEARS now. Its not a strength. Things fell apart down the stretch.

According to your logic Flacco should do well here then.

I don't know how anyone could watch 16 Broncos games this season and think the OL was GOOD, because some meaningless statistics were posted by fantasy football geeks.

I think the Broncos OL was bad because I watched the games and saw Case Keenum running for his life. Everybody wants to blame Keenum, because he sucked. But, Peyton Manning used the self-sack in the same situations.

Has everybody forgotten that? Peyton flopping down to avoid the big hit?

This has been going on for a long time, and it hasn't gotten any better last season.

So far Garrett Bolles has become the best professional wrestler in the NFL but he hasn't been any good at blocking his man while avoiding penalties. People just blithely assume that "he'll be fine." Well they better hope so, because he needs vast improvement to avoid becoming the most penalized LT in NFL history.

The rest of the OL is in total flux, Ron Leary, Paradis (whom they want but who is expected to get $10m plus offers from other teams), and Veldheer will probably not be back.

So, for about the fifth year in a row, the OL is being totally rebuilt this off season. AGAIN. That's not because it's been great, folks.

Shazam!
02-19-2019, 07:15 AM
Why because i wanted Case and TS to succeed? I wanted Orton to succeed too.

Been watching this team like 30 years before you. Hell, you were a fan of another team.

You don't know what you are seeing if you somehow are trying to convince people that the OLine is a STRENGTH when you can listen to every analyst or any talking head break down how the Line is a problem spot and has been for YEARS now. Its not a strength. Things fell apart down the stretch.

According to your logic Flacco should do well here then.

I don't know how anyone could watch 16 Broncos games this season and think the OL was GOOD, because some meaningless statistics were posted by fantasy football geeks.

I think the Broncos OL was bad because I watched the games and saw Case Keenum running for his life. Everybody wants to blame Keenum, because he sucked. But, Peyton Manning used the self-sack in the same situations.

Has everybody forgotten that? Peyton flopping down to avoid the big hit?

This has been going on for a long time, and it hasn't gotten any better last season.

So far Garrett Bolles has become the best professional wrestler in the NFL but he hasn't been any good at blocking his man while avoiding penalties. People just blithely assume that "he'll be fine." Well they better hope so, because he needs vast improvement to avoid becoming the most penalized LT in NFL history.

The rest of the OL is in total flux, Ron Leary, Paradis (whom they want but who is expected to get $10m plus offers from other teams), and Veldheer will probably not be back.

So, for about the fifth year in a row, the OL is being totally rebuilt this off season. AGAIN. That's not because it's been great, folks.

Spot on brother.

Jsteve01
02-19-2019, 08:21 AM
Show me anywhere where anyone on this post said that the o-line was great. My contention from the beginning was that the previous coaching staff had last year's oline playing way over their heads. Finishing middle of the pack in pass protection stats and having Lindsay top in the league versus a stacked box. Obviously Phillip Lindsay was phenomenal but you can't state that a rookie running back was tops against the league against a stacked box without getting at least a little bit of help from his offensive line.

Shazam!
02-19-2019, 08:35 AM
Show me anywhere where anyone on this post said that the o-line was great. My contention from the beginning was that the previous coaching staff had last year's oline playing way over their heads. Finishing middle of the pack in pass protection stats and having Lindsay top in the league versus a stacked box. Obviously Phillip Lindsay was phenomenal but you can't state that a rookie running back was tops against the league against a stacked box without getting at least a little bit of help from his offensive line.

Its actually the opposite is correct. The Line benefited from Lindsay/Freeman. Imagine what it woulda looked like if Booker was the top Back?

Jsteve01
02-19-2019, 10:33 PM
Lindsey averaged more ypc against 8 in the box thsn anyone in all the nfl and your contention is that it was soley because he was phenomenal? Im done. Stats and numbers have zero meaning when we let our prejudices dictate how we interpret them. 180 lb running backs no matter how talented dont win at that level with shitty o line play unless their name is barry and even he wasn that tiny

CoachChaz
02-20-2019, 09:51 AM
I don't know how anyone could watch 16 Broncos games this season and think the OL was GOOD, because some meaningless statistics were posted by fantasy football geeks.

I think the Broncos OL was bad because I watched the games and saw Case Keenum running for his life. Everybody wants to blame Keenum, because he sucked. But, Peyton Manning used the self-sack in the same situations.

Has everybody forgotten that? Peyton flopping down to avoid the big hit?

This has been going on for a long time, and it hasn't gotten any better last season.

So far Garrett Bolles has become the best professional wrestler in the NFL but he hasn't been any good at blocking his man while avoiding penalties. People just blithely assume that "he'll be fine." Well they better hope so, because he needs vast improvement to avoid becoming the most penalized LT in NFL history.

The rest of the OL is in total flux, Ron Leary, Paradis (whom they want but who is expected to get $10m plus offers from other teams), and Veldheer will probably not be back.

So, for about the fifth year in a row, the OL is being totally rebuilt this off season. AGAIN. That's not because it's been great, folks.

Leary is pretty much a lock to be back because after achilles surgery, there is no way he passes a physical on March 17 and since the bulk of his salary is guaranteed against injury, it would cost the team a fortune to release him. Now, I'll throw a bone and say that could still technically happen, but there would just be that much more dead money that will kill cap space needed to find a decent replacement.

We'll already be paying 10 mil to a QB that wont be on the roster, so we're going to pay another 6 mil to a guard that wont be there, too? If that happens, the front office needs to be replaced immediately.

Shazam!
02-20-2019, 10:08 AM
I don't know how anyone could watch 16 Broncos games this season and think the OL was GOOD, because some meaningless statistics were posted by fantasy football geeks.

I think the Broncos OL was bad because I watched the games and saw Case Keenum running for his life. Everybody wants to blame Keenum, because he sucked. But, Peyton Manning used the self-sack in the same situations.

Has everybody forgotten that? Peyton flopping down to avoid the big hit?

This has been going on for a long time, and it hasn't gotten any better last season.

So far Garrett Bolles has become the best professional wrestler in the NFL but he hasn't been any good at blocking his man while avoiding penalties. People just blithely assume that "he'll be fine." Well they better hope so, because he needs vast improvement to avoid becoming the most penalized LT in NFL history.

The rest of the OL is in total flux, Ron Leary, Paradis (whom they want but who is expected to get $10m plus offers from other teams), and Veldheer will probably not be back.

So, for about the fifth year in a row, the OL is being totally rebuilt this off season. AGAIN. That's not because it's been great, folks.

Leary is pretty much a lock to be back because after achilles surgery, there is no way he passes a physical on March 17 and since the bulk of his salary is guaranteed against injury, it would cost the team a fortune to release him. Now, I'll throw a bone and say that could still technically happen, but there would just be that much more dead money that will kill cap space needed to find a decent replacement.

We'll already be paying 10 mil to a QB that wont be on the roster, so we're going to pay another 6 mil to a guard that wont be there, too? If that happens, the front office needs to be replaced immediately.

Maybe he restructure but I think Paradis is gone.

Shazam!
02-20-2019, 10:12 AM
Lindsey averaged more ypc against 8 in the box thsn anyone in all the nfl and your contention is that it was soley because he was phenomenal? Im done. Stats and numbers have zero meaning when we let our prejudices dictate how we interpret them. 180 lb running backs no matter how talented dont win at that level with shitty o line play unless their name is barry and even he wasn that tiny

See Booker, Davontae. Please.

CoachChaz
02-20-2019, 10:18 AM
Maybe he restructure but I think Paradis is gone.

I agree Paradis is gone, but McGovern played well enough in his absence to be able to afford that. Paradis is pushing his 30's and has had multiple hip surgeries and a broken leg, so an expensive, long term deal doesn't make a ton of sense to me.

Not too sure I see Leary restructuring...or more specifically, I don't see the Broncos wanting to restructure if they are ready to move on from him after this season, for many of the same reasons why I see them letting Paradis walk. If there was any guarantee they would get 16 games out of him this season, then maybe...but while he has been good when on the field...he hasn't proven reliable.

Shazam!
02-20-2019, 10:21 AM
Maybe he restructure but I think Paradis is gone.

I agree Paradis is gone, but McGovern played well enough in his absence to be able to afford that. Paradis is pushing his 30's and has had multiple hip surgeries and a broken leg, so an expensive, long term deal doesn't make a ton of sense to me.

Not too sure I see Leary restructuring...or more specifically, I don't see the Broncos wanting to restructure if they are ready to move on from him after this season, for many of the same reasons why I see them letting Paradis walk. If there was any guarantee they would get 16 games out of him this season, then maybe...but while he has been good when on the field...he hasn't proven reliable.

It cant be the only lineman returning could be Bolles? Scary.

Im not one of those with the belief the Line was on the brink of being 'good' regardless of stats

CoachChaz
02-20-2019, 10:34 AM
It cant be the only lineman returning could be Bolles? Scary.

Im not one of those with the belief the Line was on the brink of being 'good' regardless of stats

No. I would say as of right now, we have Bolles at LT, Leary at LG, McGovern at C and Turner at either RG or RT, depending on where we go in FA/draft. Personally, I would love to sign Juwaun Jones, but...who knows.

Shazam!
02-20-2019, 10:49 AM
It cant be the only lineman returning could be Bolles? Scary.

Im not one of those with the belief the Line was on the brink of being 'good' regardless of stats

No. I would say as of right now, we have Bolles at LT, Leary at LG, McGovern at C and Turner at either RG or RT, depending on where we go in FA/draft. Personally, I would love to sign Juwaun Jones, but...who knows.

Mitch Morse if Paradis walks

CoachChaz
02-20-2019, 10:59 AM
Mitch Morse if Paradis walks

I don't think KC let's him go. Plus...why leave there to go to Denver right now?

TXBRONC
02-20-2019, 11:09 AM
Lindsey averaged more ypc against 8 in the box thsn anyone in all the nfl and your contention is that it was soley because he was phenomenal? Im done. Stats and numbers have zero meaning when we let our prejudices dictate how we interpret them. 180 lb running backs no matter how talented dont win at that level with shitty o line play unless their name is barry and even he wasn that tiny

Spot on J. Barry Sanders was 5'8" but he also weighed 203 lbs. Lindsey isn't built like Sanders was when he played and he doesn't run like him. He (Lindnsey) still very good but when he's met right at line of scrimmage he normally gets stopped cold.

Elevation inc
02-20-2019, 11:50 AM
Spot on J. Barry Sanders was 5'8" but he also weighed 203 lbs. Lindsey isn't built like Sanders was when he played and he doesn't run like him. He (Lindnsey) still very good but when he's met right at line of scrimmage he normally gets stopped cold.

Yep...Lindsay is elite because of his vision...he has elite vision....but if there is no hole at the line because of bad blocking which happened a lot....he cant go anywhere and due to his size its pretty much a brick wall with no hole.....its why teams started stacking the box and not worrying about Keenum its how they took our best player out of the mix by just blowing up the LOS....its the same reason Gurley struggled....teams just start blowing up the LOS and forcing Goff to beat them....sometimes he made it work but not often....the reason the rams got better with Anderson for a bit is because he was so good at yards after contact at the LOS....he made teams still pay stacking the box....but that only works for so long....just like with Lindsay his First contact YPC was pretty good at the beginning but then those hits take tolls as the season goes on.....i love Lindsay and his fire for the game and his passion and its a shame we weren’t smart enough on offense to scheme him into space for to use that elite vision.....that’s was a coaching malfunction for sure...cause musgrave just could accept he would have to alter his scheme....its the same arrogance that tried to make Keenum a pocket passer all year....

Shazam!
02-20-2019, 11:54 AM
Mitch Morse if Paradis walks

I don't think KC let's him go. Plus...why leave there to go to Denver right now?

They did it with Wiegmann way back like 10 yrs ago

Elevation inc
02-20-2019, 11:57 AM
Only here is the Broncos OLine not just mediocre but it's somehow a strength?

Like no one watched a single game down the stretch?

Great running Backs will bloat OLine stats.



So by Keenums numbers, he had a great year on forst glance huh?

Stats don't tell the whole story

As the Season and injuries wore on they were exposed. It is a great area of need with the possibility of big changes coming, whixh I hope is positive with Munchak.

Games are still won in the trenches that’s how NE beat the Rams.....you are correct OL is a need for us.....RT is a glaring hole right now for sure.....and Bolles cant pass protect very well for a LT so that’s a big concern, that hopefully munchak can fix with better technique....i put CB far and away as our biggest immediate need with a long term QB as our next need, but i would follow that with Tackle, and a legit TE that can play and stay healthy....

Shazam!
02-20-2019, 12:29 PM
Only here is the Broncos OLine not just mediocre but it's somehow a strength?

Like no one watched a single game down the stretch?

Great running Backs will bloat OLine stats.



So by Keenums numbers, he had a great year on forst glance huh?

Stats don't tell the whole story

As the Season and injuries wore on they were exposed. It is a great area of need with the possibility of big changes coming, whixh I hope is positive with Munchak.

Games are still won in the trenches that’s how NE beat the Rams.....you are correct OL is a need for us.....RT is a glaring hole right now for sure.....and Bolles cant pass protect very well for a LT so that’s a big concern, that hopefully munchak can fix with better technique....i put CB far and away as our biggest immediate need with a long term QB as our next need, but i would follow that with Tackle, and a legit TE that can play and stay healthy....

My thinking is the FO believes the best can be brought out in what they have with Munchak especially with bolles

CoachChaz
02-20-2019, 12:54 PM
They did it with Wiegmann way back like 10 yrs ago

At age 35. Then 2 years later he went back to KC.

That said...Denver was a much better option at the time than the Chiefs who went 2-14

FanInAZ
02-20-2019, 01:06 PM
No Joel, Kubiak was still in Houston at the time, the offensive coordinator for the Ravens was Bill Caldwell if I remember correctly. Kubiak was only in Baltimore one season and that was 2014.

Your right about almost everything. Jim Caldwell supplanted Cam Cameron mid-season as their OC in 2012.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/2012.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CaldJi0.htm

TXBRONC
02-20-2019, 01:44 PM
Your right about almost everything. Jim Caldwell supplanted Cam Cameron mid-season as their OC in 2012.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/2012.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CaldJi0.htm

Just out of curiosity what did miss? I did know that Caldwell supplanted Cam Cameron mid-season as the OC I just didn't mention it.

FanInAZ
02-20-2019, 01:55 PM
Just out of curiosity what did miss? I did know that Caldwell supplanted Cam Cameron mid-season as the OC I just didn't mention it.

You said...


Bill Caldwell

...instead of Jim Caldwell.

TXBRONC
02-20-2019, 02:22 PM
You said...



...instead of Jim Caldwell.

Ok, thanks.

Cugel
02-22-2019, 10:08 AM
Games are still won in the trenches that’s how NE beat the Rams.....you are correct OL is a need for us.....RT is a glaring hole right now for sure.....and Bolles cant pass protect very well for a LT so that’s a big concern, that hopefully munchak can fix with better technique....i put CB far and away as our biggest immediate need with a long term QB as our next need, but i would follow that with Tackle, and a legit TE that can play and stay healthy....

I keep wondering why they don't re-sign Veldheer, and maybe they will. He wasn't great, but he wasn't terrible either, probably the brightest (15 watt) bulb on the OL last year. He wouldn't be cheap but at least he's not a LT so he won't get just Stupid money because nobody thinks he can transition to LT and be very good.

Bolles- well they brought Munchak here directly to work with Bolles and the OL. He's been very resistant to coaching so far, but hopefully this works. So far the Broncos should have drafted Ramczyk who went to the Pro-bowl in his second season, rather than Bolles.

Who knows what they will do at G. Brandon Stokely was commenting on the radio about how they need TWO starting caliber G's, whether this comes through FA or the draft. If there was a star-quality LT available at #10 I'd take him in the draft and move Bolles to RT.

And Troy Renck, Denver7 Broncos reporter is that there's "less than a 50-50 chance they re-sign Paradis." I don't know how accurate that is.

CoachChaz
02-22-2019, 10:21 AM
I keep wondering why they don't re-sign Veldheer, and maybe they will. He wasn't great, but he wasn't terrible either, probably the brightest (15 watt) bulb on the OL last year. He wouldn't be cheap but at least he's not a LT so he won't get just Stupid money because nobody thinks he can transition to LT and be very good.

Bolles- well they brought Munchak here directly to work with Bolles and the OL. He's been very resistant to coaching so far, but hopefully this works. So far the Broncos should have drafted Ramczyk who went to the Pro-bowl in his second season, rather than Bolles.

Who knows what they will do at G. Brandon Stokely was commenting on the radio about how they need TWO starting caliber G's, whether this comes through FA or the draft. If there was a star-quality LT available at #10 I'd take him in the draft and move Bolles to RT.

And Troy Renck, Denver7 Broncos reporter is that there's "less than a 50-50 chance they re-sign Paradis." I don't know how accurate that is.

If we had done this...who would be playing left tackle right now? Or how much would we be complaining about his poor play at LT? The Saints did exactly what ANY team should have done with Ramczyk and moved him to right tackle.

underrated29
02-22-2019, 10:38 AM
If we had done this...who would be playing left tackle right now? Or how much would we be complaining about his poor play at LT? The Saints did exactly what ANY team should have done with Ramczyk and moved him to right tackle.

I hate when people say that. Ramz couldn't play at lt so they moved him to rt. Like you said, wed still have no LT

Jsteve01
02-22-2019, 10:42 AM
I hate when people say that. Ramz couldn't play at lt so they moved him to rt. Like you said, wed still have no LT

Different scenario though. They slid him to RT because they already had. Armstead who is an above average LT Ramz will be the obvious option at LT if they csnt get Armstead resigned.

underrated29
02-22-2019, 12:04 PM
Different scenario though. They slid him to RT because they already had. Armstead who is an above average LT Ramz will be the obvious option at LT if they csnt get Armstead resigned.


Did they not immediately put Ramz at LT first, though? Then when he bombed they moved him to RT where hes a Boss!? Or am I just completely fabricating that?

CoachChaz
02-22-2019, 12:52 PM
Possibly, but even when he was going through the scouting process before the draft, the word was that he was much better suited to play RT. Now he is a 2nd team All-Pro there, so do you commit to moving him out of a role he has mastered and "hope" that he can do the same on the left side? Pretty risky move. I would just leave him at RT and find another LT.

CoachChaz
02-22-2019, 12:57 PM
Did they not immediately put Ramz at LT first, though? Then when he bombed they moved him to RT where hes a Boss!? Or am I just completely fabricating that?

Yes and no. NO drafted Ramczyk specifically to play RT, but they already had Strief there. But when Armstead got injured they put Ramczyk at LT until he returned. But then, Streif get hurt and they moved Ramczyk to RT...where they wanted him to begin with...and kicked Peat out to LT. Stayed that way until Armstead came back and hasn't changed.

So, Ramczyk didn't exactly fail at LT...he was just moved to the spot they drafted him to play in the first place.

Jsteve01
02-22-2019, 06:37 PM
Did they not immediately put Ramz at LT first, though? Then when he bombed they moved him to RT where hes a Boss!? Or am I just completely fabricating that?

They had a Pro bowler in Armstead. But Ryan had actually played LT his whole career.

Cugel
03-01-2019, 06:49 PM
Possibly, but even when he was going through the scouting process before the draft, the word was that he was much better suited to play RT. Now he is a 2nd team All-Pro there, so do you commit to moving him out of a role he has mastered and "hope" that he can do the same on the left side? Pretty risky move. I would just leave him at RT and find another LT.

It's normal to take rookies and let them play RT since that is less demanding that LT. NO had a LT. So, of course they tried Ramczyk at LT to see if he'd just jump into it like Joe Thomas, but he didn't.

Denver would have done the same with Bolles who was less polished a T than Ramczyk, except that unlike NO they didn't have a LT. So, Bolles has stuck at LT despite being below mediocre there in his first two seasons.

So, they brought in Munchak to work with him and get something out of him. If Munchak can't fix him, then they will just have to release him, because there's no better OL coach than Munchak. It's fish or cut bait time for Bolles this season. He has no more excuses.

Admittedly, the coaching staff the last 2 years sucked. Now they've gone out and assembled what Elway and Co. thinks is a superior and experienced coaching staff. So, we'll see what happens now.

But, Bolles was selected not because he was a more polished LT, but because he was more athletic than Ramczyk. Ramczyk was the more ready college player and his development has been faster. It's NOT because he's a natural RT and Bolles is a natural LT.

Simple Jaded
03-13-2019, 10:00 PM
I love John Elway so much, I think some of you owe him an apology for things you’ve said in the past.