John Elway Said to be High on Quarterback Drew Lock

[Poet]

What a strange name for a drug. :D Forgive the bad joke.

It could be the Broncos: G.M. John Elway is smitten with Lock, according to the Denver Post, which calls that the worst-kept secret at the Senior Bowl.

Elway’s interest in Lock didn’t start at the Senior Bowl. Elway attended the Arkansas-Missouri game in November, when Lock had an excellent game, passing for two touchdowns, running for two more and leading Missouri to a 38-0 win.

Read more at: https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/01/29/john-elway-said-to-be-high-on-quarterback-drew-lock/?fbclid=IwAR10NfcR6uF97Tx5nNnPqBJpuLnaVH40TFpiCQe-vYaBTTIbEwDWvR0ve9Q

[DenBronx]

Well...there goes the element of surprise.


I do like Drew Lock though, he’s the only QB in this draft I’d take in the top 10.

[Shazam!]

Oh God Mr. Elway please get him.

[CoachChaz]

Oh God Mr. Elway please get him.

...and then start him as a rookie so we don't have to wait to see if he is the next Elway bust.

[Nomad]

This is the kiss of death if Elway loves Lock. :D. Now....if Skank loved Lock

[Shazam!]

Oh God Mr. Elway please get him.

...and then start him as a rookie so we don't have to wait to see if he is the next Elway bust.

Case needs to be pushed. He wont make it halfway through the Season if he plays like last year then put Lock in. This is a Win Win.

Broncos better not mess with me! Elway GET THIS KID.

[Poet]

Haskins would be preferable but I’d take Lock quite happily.

[Dapper Dan]

It's worth a shot.

[broncofaninfla]

I call bs on this story. Elway and company just saw first hand at the Senior Bowl week how NFL ready this kid is and it wasn't good. Lock was the best of a group of QB's that looked awful at times. NO WAY he takes this kid at the 10 spot, he isn't even remotely close to being the tenth best player available in this years draft. Two years ago the team took needs over BPA and it didn't work out so great (just see Bolles). Last year they went BPA and Denver had one of the best drafts ever. There's a lot of talent coming out this year, especially on the defensive side of the ball. Denver desperately needs a young QB but trading up or taking one at the 10 spot would be a HUGE reach. I'd roll the dice on the 2020 QB's.

[Dapper Dan]

Was he actually bad at the Senior Bowl? I keep seeing mixed reviews.

[broncofaninfla]

He was inconsistent, the others were bad bordering on awful. His ball placement was all over the place even against air and he played tentative at times when challenged. I'd say any hype on him was due to the others looking so bad. If I were to roll the dice on ANY of the guys there I would go with T Jackson in the later rounds. I went there hoping I'd get a glimpse of Denvers next franchise QB and left convinced it wasn't anybody at this years senior bowl. I did miss Wednesdays practice and heard the QB's looked better during that practice so maybe he played lights out that day? Not sure but he definitely didn't during the Tuesday and Thursday practice.

[Jsteve01]

He was inconsistent, the others were bad bordering on awful. His ball placement was all over the place even against air and he played tentative at times when challenged. I'd say any hype on him was due to the others looking so bad. If I were to roll the dice on ANY of the guys there I would go with T Jackson in the later rounds. I went there hoping I'd get a glimpse of Denvers next franchise QB and left convinced it wasn't anybody at this years senior bowl. I did miss Wednesdays practice and heard the QB's looked better during that practice so maybe he played lights out that day? Not sure but he definitely didn't during the Tuesday and Thursday practice.

Agree on all points

[BroncoWave]

I call bs on this story. Elway and company just saw first hand at the Senior Bowl week how NFL ready this kid is and it wasn't good. Lock was the best of a group of QB's that looked awful at times. NO WAY he takes this kid at the 10 spot, he isn't even remotely close to being the tenth best player available in this years draft. Two years ago the team took needs over BPA and it didn't work out so great (just see Bolles). Last year they went BPA and Denver had one of the best drafts ever. There's a lot of talent coming out this year, especially on the defensive side of the ball. Denver desperately needs a young QB but trading up or taking one at the 10 spot would be a HUGE reach. I'd roll the dice on the 2020 QB's.

Saving this post for later. :D

[underrated29]

I call bs on this story. Elway and company just saw first hand at the Senior Bowl week how NFL ready this kid is and it wasn't good. Lock was the best of a group of QB's that looked awful at times. NO WAY he takes this kid at the 10 spot, he isn't even remotely close to being the tenth best player available in this years draft. Two years ago the team took needs over BPA and it didn't work out so great (just see Bolles). Last year they went BPA and Denver had one of the best drafts ever. There's a lot of talent coming out this year, especially on the defensive side of the ball. Denver desperately needs a young QB but trading up or taking one at the 10 spot would be a HUGE reach. I'd roll the dice on the 2020 QB's.



I think you are putting Waaaaaay too much stock in the SB practices. They practice for like a week an throwing to guys who they have never thrown too before. The timing, the learning of the offense...All within 1 week time. Come on. Its the SB. What are you going to do when you draft a player. Go off of their years of tape which typically shows, consistently, the type of player they are.....or......are you going to base it off of 3 days at practice. Some of which were in typhoon type weather?

Did we judge our new players after 3 days of training camp? How about Roby getting torched repeatedly by manning. Tank Ronnie hillman being starter only to be benched for game 1 when knowshon had only like 3 carries all of TC and pre season?


The QB class here is really really good. I remember the last few QBs to light up the Senior Bowl.

Vince Young
Johnny manziel
They are both on your side.

[OrangeHoof]

Elway, like DaddyShan, is coy about who he'll draft. The more the Broncos actually promote a player, the less likely we are to take him. I'm guessing Lock goes to the Jaguars, Giants or Lions while we reach for the next one on the list - Murray, Jones or Grier.

[MOtorboat]

Saw a rumor about Levi Bo Mitchell, or Bo Levi Mitchell, something like that. Apparently he’s a great CFL quarterback. That seems to be more this front office’s wheel house.

[TXBRONC]

Elway, like DaddyShan, is coy about who he'll draft. The more the Broncos actually promote a player, the less likely we are to take him. I'm guessing Lock goes to the Jaguars, Giants or Lions while we reach for the next one on the list - Murray, Jones or Grier.

He didn't reach for a quarterback last year, so maybe he'll keep his powder dry until a later round.

[slim]

Saw a rumor about Levi Bo Mitchell, or Bo Levi Mitchell, something like that. Apparently he’s a great CFL quarterback. That seems to be more this front office’s wheel house.

Someone was pimping that guy on BF awhile back. He kind of sounded like a poor man's Case Keenum

[Northman]

Elway, like DaddyShan, is coy about who he'll draft. The more the Broncos actually promote a player, the less likely we are to take him. I'm guessing Lock goes to the Jaguars, Giants or Lions while we reach for the next one on the list - Murray, Jones or Grier.

I was wondering about this as well, smoke and mirrors and all.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I don’t know a ton about Lock as a QB, but he seems to be a good person and a genuine guy who didn’t just respond to questions with canned answers. He seems honest and has a good head on his shoulders. We know he has an NFL arm so is he a guy that can put it all together, actually take coaching, and become a top 10 QB in this league? That’s yet to be seen but I do like what I’ve seen off the field so far. Zero attitude, humble, likeable, and a good communicator.

He seems at this point to be a guy who could have a 16+ year career in the NFL. He already seems much more mature than a guy like Paxton Lynch. That’s important to me, and I’d hope it is to Elway, too. I think his floor is Alex Smith and his ceiling is Matt Stafford/ Carson Wentz. Wentz is actually who he reminds me of. So far, I like what I’ve seen from him.

[CoachChaz]

I can't base his Senior Bowl performance off of practices I didn't see, but what I saw from him in the actual game...when it matters...was actually much more than I expected. My biggest knock on him was how he processed defenses and adjustments, and he really did quite well at that during the game. I was quite impressed at a scenario I expected to be...meh.

Just my opinion.

[Cugel]

Elway, like DaddyShan, is coy about who he'll draft. The more the Broncos actually promote a player, the less likely we are to take him. I'm guessing Lock goes to the Jaguars, Giants or Lions while we reach for the next one on the list - Murray, Jones or Grier.

That's basically the reality. Add in the Raiders at #4 however, since Gruden isn't committed long term to Derek Carr. And any of the top 5 teams might be willing to move back in trade with some team that wants a top QB, since the Cardinals, 49ers and Jets don't need a QB. The Bucs might be ready to move on from Jameis Winston, but it's hard to give up on the #1 pick. Still. . . .

So, there are plenty of options for teams to get ahead of the Broncos if they stay at #10. Denver would probably have to move up to land a Qb and in this draft class it might not be worth while.

[aberdien]

Big **** Lock

[Poet]

Big **** Lock

You just cursed him.

[aberdien]

I don't think he's that special but I also would gladly have him on our team over Keenum.

Haskins is the answer though.

[Poet]

I don't think he's that special but I also would gladly have him on our team over Keenum.

Haskins is the answer though.

Haskins is style

[UnderArmour]

As others have said, this reeks of smokescreen. Daniel Jones is the "typical" quarterback that Elway has pursued that fits the measurable mold of a Brock O. or Paxton prospect, so I expect Elway to shy away from him unless he's on the board day 2. Murray or Haskins is probably Elway's actual target.

[Poet]

I think he probably likes numerous QB's.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

It's liar season.

[Poet]

Sometimes the best lie is to tell the truth, or at least parts of it.

[Ziggy]

As others have said, this reeks of smokescreen. Daniel Jones is the "typical" quarterback that Elway has pursued that fits the measurable mold of a Brock O. or Paxton prospect, so I expect Elway to shy away from him unless he's on the board day 2. Murray or Haskins is probably Elway's actual target.

Daniel Jones is getting a ton of pre-draft hype, but his arm strength is severely limited. It's like watching the old Peyton all over again.

[Northman]

Daniel Jones is getting a ton of pre-draft hype, but his arm strength is severely limited. It's like watching the old Peyton all over again.

Thats why we love him.

[Cugel]

Someone was pimping that guy on BF awhile back. He kind of sounded like a poor man's Case Keenum

He can't be a "poor man's Case Keenum" if he's drafted at all. Keenum was signed by the Texans as an undrafted FA.

[Cugel]

I think he probably likes numerous QB's.

I suppose. Last year he didn't like any. Except Paxton. He didn't draft a QB because "we're not kicking Paxton to the curb" Elway said, 4 months before he kicked Paxton to the curb. :tsk:

[BroncoJoe]

I suppose. Last year he didn't like any. Except Paxton. He didn't draft a QB because "we're not kicking Paxton to the curb" Elway said, 4 months before he kicked Paxton to the curb. :tsk:

It was also after signing Keenum, who by all accounts had a very good season the previous year. There was reason to believe that between Keenum and Paxton, we had our QB's. Everyone knew Paxton needed a couple/few years to marinate. Kelly even looked promising (on the field, anyway).

Clearly, sometimes belief is overrated... but I don't begrudge Elway for not getting into the QB sweepstakes last year based on what we thought we had.

[Cugel]

It was also after signing Keenum, who by all accounts had a very good season the previous year. There was reason to believe that between Keenum and Paxton, we had our QB's. Everyone knew Paxton needed a couple/few years to marinate. Kelly even looked promising (on the field, anyway).

Clearly, sometimes belief is overrated... but I don't begrudge Elway for not getting into the QB sweepstakes last year based on what we thought we had.

I'd have no problem with it if he really believed that Case Keenum was a long-term Qb solution, but he didn't. :coffee:

After he signed Keenum he called him "a bridge Qb." He didn't say "bridge to what" though. As it turned out, it was a "bridge to Paxton" who had already failed twice before and no reasonable person thought he would suddenly "get gud" after YET ANOTHER off-season. Naturally he failed again and got cut.

So, Elway screwed up royally. :tsk:

[BroncoJoe]

I'd have no problem with it if he really believed that Case Keenum was a long-term Qb solution, but he didn't. :coffee:

After he signed Keenum he called him "a bridge Qb." He didn't say "bridge to what" though. As it turned out, it was a "bridge to Paxton" who had already failed twice before and no reasonable person thought he would suddenly "get gud" after YET ANOTHER off-season. Naturally he failed again and got cut.

So, Elway screwed up royally. :tsk:

As with most of your posts:

:coffee:

[FanInAZ]

Elway, like DaddyShan, is coy about who he'll draft. The more the Broncos actually promote a player, the less likely we are to take him. I'm guessing Lock goes to the Jaguars, Giants or Lions while we reach for the next one on the list - Murray, Jones or Grier.

I've got a couple of other scenarios to suggest:

1) The "insider source of this information is actually a member of the janitorial staff who happen to over hear 10 seconds of a half hour discussion on what we should do to solve our QB problem.

2) Elway knew that his office had been bugged by someone in the media, so he pulled a Hogan's Heroes on them:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q1czroKV6Y&index=10&list=PLWEGPifBbod5DjUY_j0H7rsv7RkkPrhBJ

Fast forward to 4:27 :D

[dogfish]

"john elway said to be high"

well, that would explain some of the previous drafts. . .

[slim]

He can't be a "poor man's Case Keenum" if he's drafted at all. Keenum was signed by the Texans as an undrafted FA.

Bo wasn't drafted either :listen:

[Poet]

I'm flummoxed.

[Dapper Dan]

I'm flummoxed.

Thoughts and prayers.

[slim]

I'm flummoxed.

About what?

[BroncoJoe]

About what?

Everything?

[slim]

Everything?

He is lost, Joe.

He needs us.

[Poet]

He is lost, Joe.

He needs us.

All I have is my hate.

[underrated29]

All I have is my hate.



At least you have that.

[Poet]

At least you have that.

It is a solid hatred; aimed and positioned well.

[BroncoJoe]

He is lost, Joe.

He needs us.

Eh. He's probably better off being lost and alone.

[Freyaka]

Saw a rumor about Levi Bo Mitchell, or Bo Levi Mitchell, something like that. Apparently he’s a great CFL quarterback. That seems to be more this front office’s wheel house.

Yea we're one of 3 teams he's deciding between. Local media say we're the front runner. I think we'll still draft a QB (as we should) this guy may be nothing more than an NFL backup, but he's a winner at every level he's played at.

It's tough to say if his CFL game will translate to the NFL (it's rare that it happens)

[Freyaka]

Bo wasn't drafted either :listen:

Being undrafted doesn't by default mean he'll be a terrible player. Being a terrible player means he will.

He could be absolute garbage, but if we sign him, he's just one more potential option we have at starter. Hopefully we'll have 2-3 options going into camp that are better than Keebum...

[Freyaka]

Someone was pimping that guy on BF awhile back. He kind of sounded like a poor man's Case Keenum

I was the one talking him up. He may be nothing. I like what I see of his highlights. He had an amazing year last year and won the canadian version of the SB. He was one of only 4 Canadian players to go over 5,000 yards last year.

All of that admittedly means squat at an NFL level, but I'm intrigued by him and would like to see what (if anything) he would bring to the table.

I just like having options. I fully hope we draft a QB either this year or next year or BOTH. I don't like this QB class, but we need a QB. I don't give a rats where we find that QB, but we need a reliable QB.

[Elevation inc]

lock has a lot to like about him, reminds me a lot of cutler skills, with better leadership qualities. I have no issue taking him at 10....none at all. If not give me Thorson in rd. 3......Murray ain't going rd 1. Not with his height limitations an he is doing nothing to quell suspicions about where his allegiance to football lies in his recent interview.....

[Freyaka]

lock has a lot to like about him, reminds me a lot of cutler skills, with better leadership qualities. I have no issue taking him at 10....none at all. If not give me Thorson in rd. 3......Murray ain't going rd 1. Not with his height limitations an he is doing nothing to quell suspicions about where his allegiance to football lies in his recent interview.....

I personally hope we stay the hell away from the midget... It's in his best interests career wise to pick baseball. I don't think he'll ever make it in the NFL if we're being real honest.

[OrangeHoof]

I don't like this QB class, but we need a QB. I don't give a rats where we find that QB, but we need a reliable QB.

Agreed. This year's guys are missing the "it" factor while Murray is missing the "inch" factor. I'd rather turn Murray into a "slash' player who can be a slot/screen/trick play guy but then somebody else will bite way before the 3rd-5th round. Next year's QB class is expected to be better.

[Freyaka]

Agreed. This year's guys are missing the "it" factor while Murray is missing the "inch" factor. I'd rather turn Murray into a "slash' player who can be a slot/screen/trick play guy but then somebody else will bite way before the 3rd-5th round. Next year's QB class is expected to be better.

Lock is the only one I'd borderline consider in the first. I'd be ok with grabbing a guy in the second or third, but yea, Murray ain't it. He'll be a gimmick at best, bust at worst. If he were 3-4 inches taller, he'd probably be the first overall pick. The talent is there, but the physical side of things is lacking. I think he himself recognizes it and that's why he's going back and forth on which sport to choose.

[Poet]

Haskins looks like a legitimate QB with first round talent.

[Freyaka]

Haskins looks like a legitimate QB with first round talent.

Yea he does, but I doubt he's going to be available to us without selling the farm.

[BroncoJoe]

Yea he does, but I doubt he's going to be available to us without selling the farm.

And he's not worth that.

I'm intrigued by Murray. I don't think he'll be the bust a lot here are saying he'll be.

[Elevation inc]

Haskins looks like a legitimate QB with first round talent.

I like Haskins but I think him and lock are gone by 10, so unless we trade up for one now...I don’t think we get either. In fact it wouldn’t shock me that elway would try and bait teams into jumping for lock with our supposed interest so a guy like Devin white falls in our lap. I think Lock is QB 1 off the board followed by Haskins.

Murray is a guy you take in rd 3, maybe late rd 2. He has every chance to be the next russel Wilson as he does a bust. You take him there though because if he does bust everyone alludes to the fact he was a risk, but you only lost a 3rd pick. If you take him rd 1 and he bust like lynch, then you deal with the hot seat and let’s be real GM’s don’t like the hot seat and will try and avoid it. If you take him rd 3 and it pans out your a genius, if you take him rd 1 and it pans out everyone just thinks you got lucky lol.

I really am turned off by a recent interview Murray just did though. To me it seems the guy is seeing where he gets drafted and if he doesn’t like it he is going to play baseball. His commitment to football for me is a big red flag after that....even more so then the height/weight metrics.


If your curious Which interview.....it’s his one with Dan Patrick.....not very good interview at all.....

[Nomad]

I'm hoping Devin White will be our defensive 'QB'.

[FanInAZ]

Yea we're one of 3 teams he's deciding between. Local media say we're the front runner. I think we'll still draft a QB (as we should) this guy may be nothing more than an NFL backup, but he's a winner at every level he's played at.

It's tough to say if his CFL game will translate to the NFL (it's rare that it happens)

I watched a few minutes of a CFL game a year or so ago & noticed that they'd doubled up on the Arena league's allowance of a WR being allowed to have a pre-snap running start, as long as they didn't actually cross the LOS until the ball was snapped. Any QB who's success is reliant on 2 of his WRs having such an advantage is going to be in trouble in the NFL. Kurt Warner did succeed in making his transition from the Arena, but the odds are far more stacked against him then they were for Warren Moon who I'm sure didn't have such an advantage when he played in the CFL until he came to the NFL in '84.

[dogfish]

I'm hoping Devin White will be our defensive 'QB'.

he's no guard, but he'd be okay. . . :D

[Nomad]

he's no guard, but he'd be okay. . . :D

:laugh: that’s awesome.

[Poet]

Die of cancer

[slim]

Die of cancer

We're all gonna die.

[Nomad]

Die of cancer

You drinking that diet Coke, eventually you'll get it.

[slim]

You drinking that diet Coke, eventually you'll get it.

Eventually we'll all get it

[Poet]

You drinking that diet Coke, eventually you'll get it.

I don't want you to die - I love you. You're not whom I was referring to - but I drink my diet coke so I don't diet of a heart attack first.

[Poet]

Yea he does, but I doubt he's going to be available to us without selling the farm.

The hidden cost of waiting till next year is losing a season to reboot the team. It also, to be frank, losses another prime year of Von and CHJ - teams are definitely showing that you can win with a good young QB via free agency. A young rookie QB's deal is a boon to a team. People (not necessarily you) have the audacity of accusing me of being a bad fan because I want to tank next year if we don't draft a QB this year - a true waste of a season is going 8-8 with Keenum. What's that do? He won't be a Bronco after next season, so any continuity argument dies.

[OrangeHoof]

We're all gonna die.

"We all die of sumpin'" - Joycelyn Elders

[UnderArmour]

The hidden cost of waiting till next year is losing a season to reboot the team. It also, to be frank, losses another prime year of Von and CHJ - teams are definitely showing that you can win with a good young QB via free agency. A young rookie QB's deal is a boon to a team. People (not necessarily you) have the audacity of accusing me of being a bad fan because I want to tank next year if we don't draft a QB this year - a true waste of a season is going 8-8 with Keenum. What's that do? He won't be a Bronco after next season, so any continuity argument dies.

I will never root for this team to lose, and I think even with a mediocre Keenum, the defense will have the talent to be an elite force in the AFC.

Is Trubisky really that good? Was he the reason the Bears went 12-4? Nah.
Is Lamar Jackson really going to turn into a super star? Probably not.
Is Watson going to ascend into the All Pro level? Possibly.
Mahomes and Watson are the main "hot QBs" right now on the AFC side. Mayfield looked great, but who did they really beat last year?
The importance of having a young QB gets overstated. At the end of the day, it has been Brady, Manning, and Roethlisberger carrying the AFC and taking Ls from teams that can pressure them and cover and/or from each other.

NFC wise? Is Jared Goff really that good? The Vikings paid for Cousins, is he really elite? Dak developed behind arguably the #1 O-Line in football with Elliot behind him, is that really a reflection of his talent? Where are these "hot QBs" people are talking about over there?
Foles, a backup QB and an afterthought until last year, took over and won last year for the Eagles.
Keenum was right there with him in the NFC title game.

This team would benefit, like all the other 31 teams, from stockpiling as much elite talent at all positions and having competent coaching. This team under Kubiak when it went 9-7 had coaching, but was built for having Brock (Who would have gotten this team to the playoffs that year). This team under Vance Joseph suffered from incompetent coaching that had no clue what it was doing.

The "young QB" build, while trendy, is certainly not the only answer.

[Poet]

I will never root for this team to lose, and I think even with a mediocre Keenum, the defense will have the talent to be an elite force in the AFC.

Is Trubisky really that good? Was he the reason the Bears went 12-4? Nah.
Is Lamar Jackson really going to turn into a super star? Probably not.
Is Watson going to ascend into the All Pro level? Possibly.
Mahomes and Watson are the main "hot QBs" right now on the AFC side. Mayfield looked great, but who did they really beat last year?
The importance of having a young QB gets overstated. At the end of the day, it has been Brady, Manning, and Roethlisberger carrying the AFC and taking Ls from teams that can pressure them and cover and/or from each other.

NFC wise? Is Jared Goff really that good? The Vikings paid for Cousins, is he really elite? Dak developed behind arguably the #1 O-Line in football with Elliot behind him, is that really a reflection of his talent? Where are these "hot QBs" people are talking about over there?
Foles, a backup QB and an afterthought until last year, took over and won last year for the Eagles.
Keenum was right there with him in the NFC title game.

This team would benefit, like all the other 31 teams, from stockpiling as much elite talent at all positions and having competent coaching. This team under Kubiak when it went 9-7 had coaching, but was built for having Brock (Who would have gotten this team to the playoffs that year). This team under Vance Joseph suffered from incompetent coaching that had no clue what it was doing.

The "young QB" build, while trendy, is certainly not the only answer.

I will root for the best course of action. A Keenum led win now team is worse than a good talented rookie led team because that latter can build, still on a rookie contract and contend. CK can never truly contend.

Trubisky was fine, but just fine. They lost in the first round. I'll pass on stud defensive teams without a top flight QB.
Lamar Jackson is another example of a QB who at least got a team to the playoffs, but that's another defensive based team. Without a star passing QB.
Watson is already a top ten QB. The Texans are mighty happy about that pick.
Wentz is a stud, the Eagles are happy about that pick and could build that great roster out because of the deal.

Mahomes is a god. Goff looks great.

The importance of a young QB is underrated. Because you need one - and then if you get the right one you remain a contender for a long time. Look at this playoff picture - the final four all had stud QB's, and two of them look like they can develop into long time greats. Find me one SB contender who doesn't have a great QB. You can't. That's sort of your point with Trubisky, ironically. He's not great - and we saw what that did to the Bears when that defense needed some points and relief.

[Cugel]

The hidden cost of waiting till next year is losing a season to reboot the team. It also, to be frank, losses another prime year of Von and CHJ - teams are definitely showing that you can win with a good young QB via free agency. A young rookie QB's deal is a boon to a team. People (not necessarily you) have the audacity of accusing me of being a bad fan because I want to tank next year if we don't draft a QB this year - a true waste of a season is going 8-8 with Keenum. What's that do? He won't be a Bronco after next season, so any continuity argument dies.

The question is not whether it's better to tank this year and get a QB next year, but whether the Broncos Franchise QB is available this year or not.

Just because QBs get drafted in the top 10 doesn't mean they are going to be great, sayeth Jake Locker .

At this time of year all the QBs in the draft get over-hyped, and then you get Blaine Gabbert. :tsk:

[Nomad]

Gabbert was Rd 1 Pick 10.

[Poet]

Then don't pick someone like Gabbert.

Y'all act like the only busts are QB's...

[Nomad]

Then don't pick someone like Gabbert.

Y'all act like the only busts are QB's...

What I'm saying is don't miss out on the defensive talent in this draft for someone like Gabbert, unless that QB is a sure thing. :)

[UnderArmour]

I will root for the best course of action. A Keenum led win now team is worse than a good talented rookie led team because that latter can build, still on a rookie contract and contend. CK can never truly contend.

Trubisky was fine, but just fine. They lost in the first round. I'll pass on stud defensive teams without a top flight QB.
Lamar Jackson is another example of a QB who at least got a team to the playoffs, but that's another defensive based team. Without a star passing QB.
Watson is already a top ten QB. The Texans are mighty happy about that pick.
Wentz is a stud, the Eagles are happy about that pick and could build that great roster out because of the deal.

Mahomes is a god. Goff looks great.

The importance of a young QB is underrated. Because you need one - and then if you get the right one you remain a contender for a long time. Look at this playoff picture - the final four all had stud QB's, and two of them look like they can develop into long time greats. Find me one SB contender who doesn't have a great QB. You can't. That's sort of your point with Trubisky, ironically. He's not great - and we saw what that did to the Bears when that defense needed some points and relief.

Foles wasn't great.
Flacco apparently isn't great.
Eli Manning honestly isn't that great either.
Peyton in 2015 wasn't tearing it up.

Besides them, it has been Brady, Roethlisberger, Wilson, Brees.

Where are these "hot young QBs" coming from outside of Wilson? IMO, it's a myth.

[Poet]

Foles had to play a great game - he then sucked and showed you need a great QB.

Flacco isn't relevant to the discussion anymore - league changed.

Eli was considered a franchise QB - and again, that's not relevant anymore. The last few years are what's telling.

You can't hand waive away the veteran great QB's either because they're what's winning - and they were young hot QB's once, too. Moreover, Wilson's ANOTHER example of teams using a rookie deal to add great talent.

So, you either have veteran great QB's, or young upstarts, who canbecome great long term QB's. Either way, you need an elite QB. There's one proven way to get them, and great QB's are what's winning in the NFL.

[UnderArmour]

Foles had to play a great game - he then sucked and showed you need a great QB.

Flacco isn't relevant to the discussion anymore - league changed.

Eli was considered a franchise QB - and again, that's not relevant anymore. The last few years are what's telling.

You can't hand waive away the veteran great QB's either because they're what's winning - and they were young hot QB's once, too. Moreover, Wilson's ANOTHER example of teams using a rookie deal to add great talent.

So, you either have veteran great QB's, or young upstarts, who canbecome great long term QB's. Either way, you need an elite QB. There's one proven way to get them, and great QB's are what's winning in the NFL.

There's evidence of the great veteran QBs, but the argument for the "young upstart" is limited to Russell Wilson, who no longer makes it to Super Bowls and now struggles. Goff will be another support for that argument, but then when you look at the Rams roster, the GM basically just went all-out to acquire veterans prior to this season to make a push. It remains to be seen whether or not the Rams will have any staying power here.

[Poet]

You either have a veteran QB who is top flight, or a young talented QB who is top flight, that you can build a roster around for a run. That's the long and short of it. Anything with the logic of "Keenum and X," is a true lost season. It neither helps you get a young QB, nor actually contend. It's the ultimate lost season.

[UnderArmour]

You either have a veteran QB who is top flight, or a young talented QB who is top flight, that you can build a roster around for a run. That's the long and short of it. Anything with the logic of "Keenum and X," is a true lost season. It neither helps you get a young QB, nor actually contend. It's the ultimate lost season.

The franchise goal right now is to get back into the playoffs. Tanking has catastrophic cultural consequences on an organization, and young player psyches. There's a reason the Jags fell right back down this year, and it wasn't entirely limited to Bortles.

[Poet]

There's evidence of the great veteran QBs, but the argument for the "young upstart" is limited to Russell Wilson, who no longer makes it to Super Bowls and now struggles. Goff will be another support for that argument, but then when you look at the Rams roster, the GM basically just went all-out to acquire veterans prior to this season to make a push. It remains to be seen whether or not the Rams will have any staying power here.

Russel Wilson, Jared Goff, Big Ben, and Carson Wentz. Those are a few.

You get a good QB on a rookie deal and you go for it. You can even, if you want, add Joe Flacco to that list if you want. It's worked in the past and working now.

[Poet]

The franchise goal right now is to get back into the playoffs. Tanking has catastrophic cultural consequences on an organization, and young player psyches. There's a reason the Jags fell right back down this year, and it wasn't entirely limited to Bortles.

The franchise goal is to win a SB.

[UnderArmour]

Russel Wilson, Jared Goff, Big Ben, and Carson Wentz. Those are a few.

You get a good QB on a rookie deal and you go for it. You can even, if you want, add Joe Flacco to that list if you want. It's worked in the past and working now.

Carson Wentz led his team to the Super Bowl the same way that Brock Osweiler led his team to the Super Bowl.

[Nomad]

Carson Wentz led his team to the Super Bowl the same way that Brock Osweiler led his team to the Super Bowl.

We'll find out this year what kind of QB Wentz is. Foles won't be there to bail him out.

[UnderArmour]

The franchise goal is to win a SB.

A team isn't going to go from #1 overall pick to Super Bowl in the next year. The development that comes from continually competing in January is absolutely essential to win the Lombardi. What team has won the Super Bowl in the last 10 years the year after winning less than 6 games? It doesn't really happen.

[Poet]

You either have to pivot to veteran great QB or young upstart with team that can snap up FA's. That's what this league is now. You ain't game managing your way to SB wins anymore.

[Poet]

We'll find out this year what kind of QB Wentz is. Foles won't be there to bail him out.

Yes, riding the pine with no pressure on you is bailing out a guy putting up big numbers consistently. Something Foles, a career flopper, has never done. Good lord.

[Poet]

A team isn't going to go from #1 overall pick to Super Bowl in the next year. The development that comes from continually competing in January is absolutely essential to win the Lombardi. What team has won the Super Bowl in the last 10 years the year after winning less than 6 games? It doesn't really happen.

And we aren't going to have Keenum on the team after this season - so what does making the playoffs have to do with long term building? There's a huge gap in that connection.

[Nomad]

Yes, riding the pine with no pressure on you is bailing out a guy putting up big numbers consistently. Something Foles, a career flopper, has never done. Good lord.

This contradicts your previous post.

[Poet]

This contradicts your previous post.

He had one great game.

People blew up over him. He had the type of game that a god QB had.

[Nomad]

He had one great game.

People blew up over him. He had the type of game that a god QB had.

You said game managers don't win SBs. Manning was basically a game manager the year the Broncos won the SB.

[UnderArmour]

And we aren't going to have Keenum on the team after this season - so what does making the playoffs have to do with long term building? There's a huge gap in that connection.

I do not support tanking under ANY circumstances going into next year. If the Broncos miss on Lock and Haskins, they can still take a guy like White or Oliver that will boost the defense enough to take Mahomes out at least one game. If the Broncos make the playoffs and lose Case, who cares?

Honestly, I think this is all moot because if Elway is as enamoured with Lock as reports claim, he already has a trade with San Fran lined up for #2 involving next year's first and other assets.

[Nomad]

I do not support tanking under ANY circumstances going into next year. If the Broncos miss on Lock and Haskins, they can still take a guy like White or Oliver that will boost the defense enough to take Mahomes out at least one game. If the Broncos make the playoffs and lose Case, who cares?

Honestly, I think this is all moot because if Elway is as enamoured with Lock as reports claim, he already has a trade with San Fran lined up for #2 involving next year's first and other assets.


My goodness that would be a terrible decision by Elway.

[UnderArmour]

My goodness that would be a terrible decision by Elway.

I actually don't think so. Elway stocked the roster with young talent last draft, and many of the needs at ILB, CB, and O-Line can be addressed with later picks and free agency. Hamilton has shown he has a future in this franchise, so a new QB would instantly elevate him and Sutton.

Scangarello brings two major benefits with him:
-The 49ers had a plan to use McKinnon from the Vikings as a "jet" player last offseason, and paid him accordingly. Phillip Lindsay is the perfect fit for those plans, that Scangarello will undoubtedly display.
-He did amazing work in developing nobodies into serviceable players, and also did an amazing "rush" job in getting Jimmy G. ready to play games when he first came to down, despite not being there.
I think he could make this offense run really well if given a QB, and Sanders, when healthy, will be a perfect fit with a strong-armed QB.

If Elway is truly "all-in" as he usually is, getting a QB is the only thing that is missing. There is still a lot that has to play out in the pre-draft process, but it would not be shocking at all if Denver ended up at number 2.

I'd rather Elway mortgage the future for a shot at a QB now, rather than this moronic suggestion that the Broncos should tank for 2020 QBs.

[Poet]

NO.

[Poet]

I actually don't think so. Elway stocked the roster with young talent last draft, and many of the needs at ILB, CB, and O-Line can be addressed with later picks and free agency. Hamilton has shown he has a future in this franchise, so a new QB would instantly elevate him and Sutton.

Scangarello brings two major benefits with him:
-The 49ers had a plan to use McKinnon from the Vikings as a "jet" player last offseason, and paid him accordingly. Phillip Lindsay is the perfect fit for those plans, that Scangarello will undoubtedly display.
-He did amazing work in developing nobodies into serviceable players, and also did an amazing "rush" job in getting Jimmy G. ready to play games when he first came to down, despite not being there.
I think he could make this offense run really well if given a QB, and Sanders, when healthy, will be a perfect fit with a strong-armed QB.

If Elway is truly "all-in" as he usually is, getting a QB is the only thing that is missing. There is still a lot that has to play out in the pre-draft process, but it would not be shocking at all if Denver ended up at number 2.

I'd rather Elway mortgage the future for a shot at a QB now, rather than this moronic suggestion that the Broncos should tank for 2020 QBs.

Only one poster has called exactly where we'd be right now, three years ago, and counting.

Don't call or insinuate I'm a moron.

[Poet]

This place sucks.

Y'all have fun.

l8r

[UnderArmour]

Only one poster has called exactly where we'd be right now, three years ago, and counting.

Don't call or insinuate I'm a moron.

I said it was a moronic suggestion, and I stand by that statement. Teams should never tank, and fans should never root for tanking.

Are you a moron? No. But it's a moronic suggestion.

Tanking hasn't worked out for Oakland, Jacksonville, Cleveland, San Diego, Detroit, Cincy, or Arizona. We don't want to be like those loser organizations. Tanking also bit the 49ers in the butt. Sure, you have Harbaugh come in with all that talent stockpiled from years of garbage play, but then right back into the cellar and all the players retire once the window closes. I don't want that to be the Denver Broncos.

[Poet]

Nah - it's not moronic when it would probably lead to a longer and sustained version of winning. The'shot' you're talking about, next season is the true waste. Meh. It be what it is.

[UnderArmour]

Nah - it's not moronic when it would probably lead to a longer and sustained version of winning. The'shot' you're talking about, next season is the true waste. Meh. It be what it is.

I think everyone generally agrees the Broncos should get a QB. But, if the Broncos are going to make a move, they ought to push up the draft board this year for Lock or Haskins rather than waiting.

Your "tank for 2020" plan wouldn't be sustained winning, because Lindsay, Sutton, and Chubb will all turn into loser players while Von and CHJ turn into "well I got my ring, imma just build my stat sheet" players. Winning matters. Winning now matters.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

You can help the team now, try to win and sell the farm in 2020 when the real QBs are there.

[Poet]

Because teams love trading away top flight prospects?

Somehow, if Elway thinks there are no QB's last draft, and none this one, I'd wager to say the man is probably retarded.

[UnderArmour]

Because teams love trading away top flight prospects?

Somehow, if Elway thinks there are no QB's last draft, and none this one, I'd wager to say the man is probably retarded.

That's why this is the ideal draft to trade up. Every team in the top 5 "has a franchise QB." That will not be the case next draft.

[Poet]

That's why this is the ideal draft to trade up. Every team in the top 5 "has a franchise QB." That will not be the case next draft.

Well, some people think for some, unsubstantiated reason, these QB's suck. They're the same people who sucked off, Keenum, though.

[UnderArmour]

Well, some people think for some, unsubstantiated reason, these QB's suck. They're the same people who sucked off, Keenum, though.

I don't think it mattered who the QB was last season, because the team was so horribly coached. The idea behind Case was that he led a team to the NFC Championship game, Gary coached him, and Kirk's price tag was outrageous. It wasn't the best signing in the world, but it made sense at the time.

This draft is going to produce better QBs than Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, or Drew Rosen.

[Nomad]

Well, some people think for some, unsubstantiated reason, these QB's suck. They're the same people who sucked off, Keenum, though.

I believe most had the mindset that Keenum was a Bronco, he'll get his chance to succeed, and we'll hope he succeeds like in Minnesota. You're negative about everything, so it's a given your always pessimistic.

[Poet]

I don't think it mattered who the QB was last season, because the team was so horribly coached. The idea behind Case was that he led a team to the NFC Championship game, Gary coached him, and Kirk's price tag was outrageous. It wasn't the best signing in the world, but it made sense at the time.

This draft is going to produce better QBs than Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, or Drew Rosen.

Just look at Goff year one to year two. I can find examples of struggles early on out from decades ago to recent history. VJ was an awful coach. CK was a bad QB who had a fluke year - it was a bad idea. It never made sense becuase Elway really thought we could contend with CK and I'm sorry, anyon who believed that was stupid. Even a WC birth was a big stretch.

Jackson was damn near a second round pick. Allen just had his rookie year. Rosen just had two OCs in his rookie season, and lost his entire starting line. I'd love to have Rosen on this team right now. I woudl have loved to trade up for Darnold. Every year you delay on QB is another year you push things back. It's a cost of a lost season, one that has no upsdie.

[Nomad]

I don't think it mattered who the QB was last season, because the team was so horribly coached. The idea behind Case was that he led a team to the NFC Championship game, Gary coached him, and Kirk's price tag was outrageous. It wasn't the best signing in the world, but it made sense at the time.

This draft is going to produce better QBs than Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, or Drew Rosen.

I could get on board with taking Lock at #10 as long as White isn't there. This draft is loaded at top defensive talent at #10. Definitely wouldn't mortgage the Broncos for Lock at #2.

[Poet]

I could get on board with taking Lock at #10 as long as White isn't there. This draft is loaded at top defensive talent at #10. Definitely wouldn't mortgage the Broncos for Lock at #2.

If it's a loaded draft then get the defensive talent in the later rounds.

[Poet]

I believe most had the mindset that Keenum was a Bronco, he'll get his chance to succeed, and we'll hope he succeeds like in Minnesota. You're negative about everything, so it's a given your always pessimistic.

No. Half the board was stoked to sign him. I'm not always negative - I'm negative towards bad things. And if you were honest with yourself you'd go "Wow, everything he bitches about he's right..."

[Nomad]

If it's a loaded draft then get the defensive talent in the later rounds.

Those guys won't be there in later rounds. Come on, King, you're more intelligent than this.

[Poet]

Those guys won't be there in later rounds. Come on, King, you're more intelligent than this.

If it's a loaded draft then talent gets pushed back. Guys who would otherwise be a first rounder would be available later. Would White? No. But would other defensive player be pushed backwards? Yes.

Joey Bosa and Jalen Ramsey were ranked much higher as prospects than Goff or Wentz. They went behind Goff - the QB position worth means even better prospects are worth less. You know this.

[Nomad]

If it's a loaded draft then talent gets pushed back. Guys who would otherwise be a first rounder would be available later. Would White? No. But would other defensive player be pushed backwards? Yes.

Joey Bosa and Jalen Ramsey were ranked much higher as prospects than Goff or Wentz. They went behind Goff - the QB position worth means even better prospects are worth less. You know this.

Same could be said for a QB.....Brees, Wilson, Brady. But, a guy like Von Miller was a can't miss.

[Poet]

Same could be said for a QB.....Brees, Wilson, Brady. But, a guy like Von Miller was a can't miss.

Brees was the 32nd overall pick.

Wilson has us reconsidering what a first rounder looks like.

There are a lot of Qb's worth more to a franchise than Von Miller is to ours.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Brees was the 32nd overall pick.

Wilson has us reconsidering what a first rounder looks like.

There are a lot of Qb's worth more to a franchise than Von Miller is to ours.

And there are a lot who arent. Grabbing A QB doesn't mean he's the right QB.

[UnderArmour]

I could get on board with taking Lock at #10 as long as White isn't there. This draft is loaded at top defensive talent at #10. Definitely wouldn't mortgage the Broncos for Lock at #2.

If Elway is convinced, I'm convinced. I'd give up 3 first round picks if it meant securing the QB position for the next decade.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

If Elway is convinced, I'm convinced. I'd give up 3 first round picks if it meant securing the QB position for the next decade.

I hate saying this but Elway, to this point, is the last dude I'd have faith in in regards to QB analysis.

[Poet]

And there are a lot who arent. Grabbing A QB doesn't mean he's the right QB.

No one thinks just drafting a first rounder means success.

[Cugel]

Well, some people think for some, unsubstantiated reason, these QB's suck. They're the same people who sucked off, Keenum, though.

NFL GMs think this QB class is the worst in years. We know this because they all talk to Adam Schefter and he is reporting this "Meh" feeling about any of the QB prospects publicly whenever he's asked. He says he talks to up to 12 teams a day, they are all calling him. Probably that's a lot higher during SB week when everybody is together. At this point, every scout and GM is trying to find out who every other team likes and since Adam talks to everybody he knows.

I have ZERO opinion at all about it since I don't follow college football much at all.

But, supposedly this is not a good class for QBs.

[Nomad]

If Elway is convinced, I'm convinced. I'd give up 3 first round picks if it meant securing the QB position for the next decade.

If Scangerello is convinced, then I'm convinced.

[UnderArmour]

I hate saying this but Elway, to this point, is the last dude I'd have faith in in regards to QB analysis.

The stereotypical Elway QB is in this draft as well, and his name is Daniel Jones. He looks, and plays, a lot like Brock Osweiler. Drew Lock is not a Brock Osweiler/Paxton Lynch QB. Hence, if Elway has learned ANYTHING, the guy should be Murray, Haskins, or Lock.

[Poet]

I just don't want a tall gangly goof or small weakarmed pansy.

[Nomad]

I just don't want a tall gangly goof or small weakarmed pansy.

We don't want a Cutler over Ngata either....just saying.

[Poet]

We don't want a Cutler over Ngata either....just saying.

Neither one's going to Canton - and Cutler once took a flawed roster to the NFCCG.

[OrangeHoof]

I watched a lot of Will Grier last season and he's a much better QB than Murray as long as you don't need him to run all over the field. I suspect he'll be there in the second round for us if we use the first pick on another (ahem, somebody who can ******* block) position.

[Nomad]

Neither one's going to Canton - and Cutler once took a flawed roster to the NFCCG.

One has a SB ring....just saying.

[UnderArmour]

We don't want a Cutler over Ngata either....just saying.

A lot of that was coaching and lack of personnel support though. Cutler absolutely should have been taken over Ngata, and actually stood a fighting chance in Denver because there was a line to protect him. In Chicago, he had no such chance because he had a line to protect him maybe his first year there, and that was it.

Shanahan's inability to identify a competent defensive coordinator did him in. McDumbo identified a great DC in Mike Nolan, but completely disregarded him because Nolan blitzed all day to compensate for the lack of defensive talent. Ofc, McDumbo reprimanded him thinking "oh, well why blitz when my defense is so good!" when Mike Nolan realized the defense was garbage and planned around it. Cutler, had he stayed in Denver, could have remained elite.

[Nomad]

A lot of that was coaching and lack of personnel support though. Cutler absolutely should have been taken over Ngata, and actually stood a fighting chance in Denver because there was a line to protect him. In Chicago, he had no such chance because he had a line to protect him maybe his first year there, and that was it.

Shanahan's inability to identify a competent defensive coordinator did him in. McDumbo identified a great DC in Mike Nolan, but completely disregarded him because Nolan blitzed all day to compensate for the lack of defensive talent. Ofc, McDumbo reprimanded him thinking "oh, well why blitz when my defense is so good!" when Mike Nolan realized the defense was garbage and planned around it. Cutler, had he stayed in Denver, could have remained elite.

Opinion, at best. No facts.

[Nomad]

Broncos would have been good with a decent to great defense. Pass rush was a missing link. Plummer did good enough to get us to a AFCCG.

[UnderArmour]

Opinion, at best. No facts.

Okay? Ofc it's my opinion. Your post was your opinion too. No facts. I actually had some development and evidence, you had none.

[UnderArmour]

Broncos would have been good with a decent to great defense. Pass rush was a missing link. Plummer did good enough to get us to a AFCCG.

Plummer was terrible against the Colts, and generated almost no offense in back-to-back blowouts at the hands of Indy. Hence, why Cutler was drafted in the first place.

[Nomad]

Plummer was terrible against the Colts, and generated almost no offense in back-to-back blowouts at the hands of Indy. Hence, why Cutler was drafted in the first place.

I guess if you're convinced outscoring your opponents, like the Colts with Manning atm, was the answer. Broncos defense needed a stud on the defensive line, and they passed it up for a headcase with talent at QB. Moving forward...I hope Elway and his coaching staff does not make the same mistake.

[Poet]

I guess if you're convinced outscoring your opponents, like the Colts with Manning atm, was the answer. Broncos defense needed a stud on the defensive line, and they passed it up for a headcase with talent at QB. Moving forward...I hope Elway and his coaching staff does not make the same mistake.

Cutler had a lot of good years in the NFL. He was fine with Shanahan, but Shan got fired because he was stubborn with guys like Slowiak. There's a little more to this equation.

[UnderArmour]

I guess if you're convinced outscoring your opponents, like the Colts with Manning atm, was the answer. Broncos defense needed a stud on the defensive line, and they passed it up for a headcase with talent at QB. Moving forward...I hope Elway and his coaching staff does not make the same mistake.

It's absolutely about balance. In the case of Plummer, and later Orton, the lack of third down success was what did them in. Cutler absolutely made sense as a draft choice, and no amount of revisionism changes that Plummer simply was not franchise QB. Guy was never going to lead this team to a Super Bowl, defense or no.

[Nomad]

It's absolutely about balance. In the case of Plummer, and later Orton, the lack of third down success was what did them in. Cutler absolutely made sense as a draft choice, and no amount of revisionism changes that Plummer simply was not franchise QB. Guy was never going to lead this team to a Super Bowl, defense or no.

Your opinion, again? Like selling the Broncos should trade with SF for Lock.

[UnderArmour]

Your opinion, again? Like selling the Broncos should trade with SF for Lock.

Again, my name is on the post? Ofc is it my opinion.

Maybe I should reply to every post that grass is green and that sky is blue?

Thanks for pointing out the obvious?

[Nomad]

Again, my name is on the post? Ofc is it my opinion.

Maybe I should reply to every post that grass is green and that sky is blue?

Thanks for pointing out the obvious?

You're welcome?

[UnderArmour]

You're welcome?

Your opinion, again. (See how ridiculous that reply is to any post?)

[SmilinAssasSin27]

It's absolutely about balance. In the case of Plummer, and later Orton, the lack of third down success was what did them in. Cutler absolutely made sense as a draft choice, and no amount of revisionism changes that Plummer simply was not franchise QB. Guy was never going to lead this team to a Super Bowl, defense or no.

Didn't Jake have us in the AFCCG? The same one where Belichick called Pittsburgh with tips on how to defend us? I'd say Jake did okay for us. Ugly at times, but he ran the hell out of that offense

[SmilinAssasSin27]

https://broncoswire-usatoday-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/broncoswire.usatoday.com/2019/02/01/bill-belichick-helped-pittsburgh-steelers-beat-denver-broncos-2005-afc-championship-game/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.goo gle.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fbroncoswire.usatoday.com%2F 2019%2F02%2F01%2Fbill-belichick-helped-pittsburgh-steelers-beat-denver-broncos-2005-afc-championship-game%2F

And people here root for NE...FOR SHAME

[OrangeHoof]

It's absolutely about balance. In the case of Plummer, and later Orton, the lack of third down success was what did them in. Cutler absolutely made sense as a draft choice, and no amount of revisionism changes that Plummer simply was not franchise QB. Guy was never going to lead this team to a Super Bowl, defense or no.

People still defending Plummer around here are as pathetic as people still defending Cutler or the people still defending Tebow. They each had flaws that made them less than SB-worthy.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

People still defending Plummer around here are as pathetic as people still defending Cutler or the people still defending Tebow. They each had flaws that made them less than SB-worthy.

They all have flaws. Brady has thrown a crap ton of INTS late in playoff games. Favre ended 4 consecutive seasons with an INT. And teams with subpar QBs have rings...ala Ravensx2 and Tampa. Plummer was good enough to win. Worse QBs have done so.

[dogfish]

A lot of that was coaching and lack of personnel support though. Cutler absolutely should have been taken over Ngata, and actually stood a fighting chance in Denver because there was a line to protect him. In Chicago, he had no such chance because he had a line to protect him maybe his first year there, and that was it.

Shanahan's inability to identify a competent defensive coordinator did him in. McDumbo identified a great DC in Mike Nolan, but completely disregarded him because Nolan blitzed all day to compensate for the lack of defensive talent. Ofc, McDumbo reprimanded him thinking "oh, well why blitz when my defense is so good!" when Mike Nolan realized the defense was garbage and planned around it. Cutler, had he stayed in Denver, could have remained elite.

"remained?"

[UnderArmour]

"remained?"

He made the Pro Bowl, and threw for over 4500 yards. There's a reason Chicago flipped two firsts for him. Obviously, the INTs really hurt the team, but I feel like going through 7 different starting RBs that year was quite a bit for Cutler to overcome.

[Jsteve01]

During both Plummer and Cutler we not only had the revolving door at rb. We also had a below avg defense which Ive sai repeatedly Al was so good that he hid how bad they were. Even moreso though was how utterly putrid our special teams were. Coverage and return were bottom of the league. Avg starting position for and against were putrid. Which started with Rick Dennison and only got worse. Toss in Bob Slowick for good measure and get Al hurt and well no Qb short of John was winning a super bowl here. Other than the Cutler draft, personnel was horrid in both the draft and free agency as well

[Freyaka]

I will never root for this team to lose, and I think even with a mediocre Keenum, the defense will have the talent to be an elite force in the AFC.

Is Trubisky really that good? Was he the reason the Bears went 12-4? Nah.
Is Lamar Jackson really going to turn into a super star? Probably not.
Is Watson going to ascend into the All Pro level? Possibly.
Mahomes and Watson are the main "hot QBs" right now on the AFC side. Mayfield looked great, but who did they really beat last year?
The importance of having a young QB gets overstated. At the end of the day, it has been Brady, Manning, and Roethlisberger carrying the AFC and taking Ls from teams that can pressure them and cover and/or from each other.

NFC wise? Is Jared Goff really that good? The Vikings paid for Cousins, is he really elite? Dak developed behind arguably the #1 O-Line in football with Elliot behind him, is that really a reflection of his talent? Where are these "hot QBs" people are talking about over there?
Foles, a backup QB and an afterthought until last year, took over and won last year for the Eagles.
Keenum was right there with him in the NFC title game.

This team would benefit, like all the other 31 teams, from stockpiling as much elite talent at all positions and having competent coaching. This team under Kubiak when it went 9-7 had coaching, but was built for having Brock (Who would have gotten this team to the playoffs that year). This team under Vance Joseph suffered from incompetent coaching that had no clue what it was doing.

The "young QB" build, while trendy, is certainly not the only answer.

Goff looked like Keenum last night....

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Goff looked like Keenum last night....

If Goff woulda looked like Keenum last night, he'd have a ring.

[MOtorboat]

You know, the Broncos made Cam Newton look like Case Keenum three years ago, so I’m not going to be down on Goff because the Patriots balled out. Now, Goff looked a little out of his element from the start, but this comparison to Case Keenum that’s been going on is kinda ridiculous.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

You know, the Broncos made Cam Newton look like Case Keenum three years ago, so I’m not going to be down on Goff because the Patriots balled out. Now, Goff looked a little out of his element from the start, but this comparison to Case Keenum that’s been going on is kinda ridiculous.

It wasn't all NE though. He made a bunch of unforced errors. Missed wide open guys downfield and missed a bunch of reads. He is a good QB. But he is a play action heavy QB. He is limited in what he can do. The better defenses shut him down. Last night he was awful.

[OrangeHoof]

Any QB looks worse if you shut down the running game and make them one-dimensional.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

But don't you think there is a difference between that and what Goff did on Sunday? So many unforced errors. NE surely did their part at times, but he definitely had his opportunities and completely screwed the pooch.

[UnderArmour]

But don't you think there is a difference between that and what Goff did on Sunday? So many unforced errors. NE surely did their part at times, but he definitely had his opportunities and completely screwed the pooch.

It has been a generally accepted fact that McVay feeds Goff right until the headset cuts off. Goff may have many of the physical tools, but obviously his mental ability and instincts aren't up to snuff against superior defensive coaching once that helmet radio cuts off.

[Freyaka]

You know, the Broncos made Cam Newton look like Case Keenum three years ago, so I’m not going to be down on Goff because the Patriots balled out. Now, Goff looked a little out of his element from the start, but this comparison to Case Keenum that’s been going on is kinda ridiculous.

He scrambled around in the pocket for a year holding onto the ball taking huge sacks. He had the protection, he just played stupid....Some of that you can credit the patriots for, but some of that tells me he's not ready for big games yet, he played lost...

I'm not saying I still wouldn't take him, but he was garbage during the game.

[Cugel]

But don't you think there is a difference between that and what Goff did on Sunday? So many unforced errors. NE surely did their part at times, but he definitely had his opportunities and completely screwed the pooch.

He had a bad game. So did Brady BTW. He looked like 2015 Peyton for 3 quarters and had one good drive in the 4th. Any kind of normal scoring by the Rams and they lose 21-13 or something, and the story today would be: "Does Brady's Bad Superbowl Performance Mean He's Washed Up?"

That was the worst SB in NFL History. So bad that my friend turned to me after the game and said "well that game was not as exciting as taking my dog's stool sample to the vet." He had a point.

Does that mean we wouldn't want Goff? Not unless you're really, really stupid. Then, yes.

The Broncos are not getting a QB as good as Jared Goff this season. :coffee:

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Who said they wouldn't take him? We said he played like ish Sunday...which he did.

[BroncoJoe]

Who said they wouldn't take him? We said he played like ish Sunday...which he did.

You can type shit on this site...

:D

[Elevation inc]

The defense of both teams came to play, bottom line. Neither QB of those teams does well under intense pressure. Both Qb's didn't play well at all, just goes to show that defense can still win championships against franchise Qb's. I'm glad the SB went down like it did(minus NE winning lol). It just reinforced that a good defensive plan can squash an elite offense.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

https://247sports.com/nfl/denver-broncos/Article/Everything-points-to-Broncos-drafting-Drew-Lock-128720114/?fbclid=IwAR3j0GayqhW0aU85DMXXMzwNwm1zPZU9mMYbIXMj zzVtT9K2YLfSndyEJik

[The Glue Factory]

https://247sports.com/nfl/denver-broncos/Article/Everything-points-to-Broncos-drafting-Drew-Lock-128720114/?fbclid=IwAR3j0GayqhW0aU85DMXXMzwNwm1zPZU9mMYbIXMj zzVtT9K2YLfSndyEJik

Oh boy! someone did a mock draft based on Elway's presence not leaving the QB's at the senior bowl.

Basically, someone played let's pretend the Broncos do what I imagine they'll do based on speculation about why Elway's presence was at a particular place at a specific event. Or am I looking at this too objectively?

[NightTrainLayne]

It has been a generally accepted fact that McVay feeds Goff right until the headset cuts off. Goff may have many of the physical tools, but obviously his mental ability and instincts aren't up to snuff against superior defensive coaching once that helmet radio cuts off.

This post summarized my thinking on the subject.

Belichick et al developed a gameplan with the goal of confusing the pre-snap reads, partly by running much more zone than they did during the season, but showing something pre-snap that would either confuse, or eliminate the advantage of having McVay being able to get them into the "right" play. This of course, put it all on Goff's shoulders, and he just couldn't do it.

Probably, McVay doing so much through their headset's has hindered Goff's next level of development in that he doesn't really have to make those decisions.

[dogfish]

This post summarized my thinking on the subject.

Belichick et al developed a gameplan with the goal of confusing the pre-snap reads, partly by running much more zone than they did during the season, but showing something pre-snap that would either confuse, or eliminate the advantage of having McVay being able to get them into the "right" play. This of course, put it all on Goff's shoulders, and he just couldn't do it.

Probably, McVay doing so much through their headset's has hindered Goff's next level of development in that he doesn't really have to make those decisions.

pretty much exactly this. . . the wizened jedi master bitch-slapped the brilliant apprentice. . . goff got painfully exposed by a defense that showed late motion. . . but hey, brady is the effin' goat, with his 13 points. . . :tsk:



You can type shit on this site...

:D

you can't type for shit on any site!


but i still think we should consider doing a bull and bush forum hangout if the donks do get the HOF game. . .

[Northman]

https://247sports.com/nfl/denver-broncos/Article/Everything-points-to-Broncos-drafting-Drew-Lock-128720114/?fbclid=IwAR3j0GayqhW0aU85DMXXMzwNwm1zPZU9mMYbIXMj zzVtT9K2YLfSndyEJik

If thats the case lets hope they strike gold. At least they would be attempting at taking a top tier guy instead of a project.

[Freyaka]

If thats the case lets hope they strike gold. At least they would be attempting at taking a top tier guy instead of a project.

I won't complain about taking lock if he's there and I wouldn't complain about trading up a few spots for the right price, but I don't think he's a sure enough shot to sell the farm for.

[Hawgdriver]

but i still think we should consider doing a bull and bush forum hangout if the donks do get the HOF game. . .

Still? First I've heard of it. I'm in.

[OrangeHoof]

I won't complain about taking lock if he's there and I wouldn't complain about trading up a few spots for the right price, but I don't think he's a sure enough shot to sell the farm for.

Today's mock at CBSSports.com has the Broncos trading up with Tampa Bay to take Lock. It's easy to construct those trades when you don't explain what the Broncos gave up but - just for grins - let's say the cost is the #1 pick this year and next year or perhaps a first, second and sixth, is it still worth it? And what is Tampa Bay looking to get in the draft that still works for them if they move down five spots?

Waiting until #10 to choose a QB is a risky move. I would trust Elway's instinct except he whiffed badly with Paxton Lynch (as did I). If Lock is worth it, it will be a great deal but if it's a Josh Rosen or Sam Darnold experience, I would be nervous.

[Freyaka]

Today's mock at CBSSports.com has the Broncos trading up with Tampa Bay to take Lock. It's easy to construct those trades when you don't explain what the Broncos gave up but - just for grins - let's say the cost is the #1 pick this year and next year or perhaps a first, second and sixth, is it still worth it? And what is Tampa Bay looking to get in the draft that still works for them if they move down five spots?

Waiting until #10 to choose a QB is a risky move. I would trust Elway's instinct except he whiffed badly with Paxton Lynch (as did I). If Lock is worth it, it will be a great deal but if it's a Josh Rosen or Sam Darnold experience, I would be nervous.

I don't know what I'd give up....two firsts....that's a steep price. If this kid ends up being awful, then we don't have a pick for a QB next year....

I don't know, this is why I'm not a GM, I'm not qualified to make these decisions...

[OrangeHoof]

I just tried to simulate the Tampa Bay trade on Fanspeak and it cost us our first, second and one of our 4ths (the Texans pick from Demaryous). That sounds about right.

In this mock, I traded down with Cleveland to wind up with a 1st (5th), 3rd, 4th (17th from Cleveland) and three 5ths.

With this, I selected:

1 (5) Drew Lock, QB, Missouri
3 (74) Hakeem Butler, WR, Iowa St.
4 (119) Kendall Blanton, TE, Missouri (security blanket for Lock)
5 (148) Benny Snell, RB, Kentucky
5 (156) Kaleb McGary, OT, Washington
5 (157) Justin Lane, CB, Michigan St

I'm only drafting the first five rounds until we get into free agency and the new NFL year but I would use the last two rounds for an ILB and a safety.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Today's mock at CBSSports.com has the Broncos trading up with Tampa Bay to take Lock. It's easy to construct those trades when you don't explain what the Broncos gave up but - just for grins - let's say the cost is the #1 pick this year and next year or perhaps a first, second and sixth, is it still worth it? And what is Tampa Bay looking to get in the draft that still works for them if they move down five spots?

Waiting until #10 to choose a QB is a risky move. I would trust Elway's instinct except he whiffed badly with Paxton Lynch (as did I). If Lock is worth it, it will be a great deal but if it's a Josh Rosen or Sam Darnold experience, I would be nervous.

Standing pat does have some risk but look at recent drafts and where QBs were taken:
2018...1,3,7,10,32
2017...2,10,12
2016...1,2,26
2015...1,2
2014...3,22,32
2013...16

What I see is QBs viewed as game changers go top 3. Otherwise, they are all over the map. Aside from last year, which appeared to be an exception, the Non elite QBs are going 10 and later. Buffalo got Allen at 7.

The question is...Is Lock seen as a game changer?

[OrangeHoof]

Pro Football Focus just posted their second mock draft (first round only) and they show the Broncos trading up with the Jets at #3 and have them taking Haskins of Ohio State.

"Not buying the smokescreen about Drew Lock, are you?", asks one of them.

"No, I think if you're going to trade up for a quarterback, you have to get the best one (implying Haskins)."

It would then seem to be that to leapfrog seven spots, the Broncos will definitely be giving up two #1s. Also, Oakland could conceivably move up just one spot and take Haskins if they want him.

Personally, I don't get the love for Haskins. He was surrounded by top talent at Ohio State all across the board so when he performed well, it all looked so easy. Yet, despite all that talent, Ohio State wasn't a prolific offensive team. They won a lot of close low-scoring games because of a top-shelf defense. OSU QBs at the next level become WRs.

But, there you have it.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

OSU was the #2 offense in the country.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/21

[SmilinAssasSin27]

You didn't watch OSU this year. Their D was actually the problem and Haskins is a passer and absolutely nothing like the past 10 OSU QBs

Over 4800 passing yards, 50/8 TD/INT ratio. 70% completion rate

His WRs are trash compared to those in Clemson or Bama. They may not have a WR taken in the top 3 rounds

79 carries...108 yards


Michigan was nation's top defense until OSU put 62 on em
They put 40 on TCU who is 24th defense

[OrangeHoof]

OSU scored only 20 against Purdue, 26 against Michigan St., 27 against Penn State, 28 against Washington. It wasn't like they bombed everyone they faced. Oh, that's the Purdue with the 113th ranked defense.

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/22/p3

[Northman]

You didn't watch OSU this year. Their D was actually the problem and Haskins is a passer and absolutely nothing like the past 10 OSU QBs

Over 4800 passing yards, 50/8 TD/INT ratio. 70% completion rate

His WRs are trash compared to those in Clemson or Bama. They may not have a WR taken in the top 3 rounds

79 carries...108 yards


Michigan was nation's top defense until OSU put 62 on em
They put 40 on TCU who is 24th defense

TCU was bad and to worth their ranking. I really wouldnt use that as your argument there. Lol

[Northman]

OSU scored only 20 against Purdue, 26 against Michigan St., 27 against Penn State, 28 against Washington. It wasn't like they bombed everyone they faced. Oh, that's the Purdue with the 113th ranked defense.

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/22/p3


Yea, im just not buying the Haskins hype, let someone else take him.

[Northman]

https://scontent.fphl2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51851947_10161512561275644_9093442623246434304_n.j pg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent.fphl2-1.fna&oh=c27273846f9cb1443b401a7aae79a5e7&oe=5CF65216

[SmilinAssasSin27]

#2 offense...in the nation

70% completions

[SmilinAssasSin27]

TCU was bad and to worth their ranking. I really wouldnt use that as your argument there. Lol

That's the funny thing about a statistical ranking...it's based on actual stats. Their O was trash. They played in an offense heavy league...and they are a top 25 defense.

This isn't a OSU v TCU discussion. It's a discussion about Haskins v opposing defenses.

[Northman]

He's gonna bomb, you heard it here first.

[Northman]

It's a discussion about Haskins v opposing defenses.

Kansas beat TCU as well. Again, not sure what kind of endorsement that is for the TCU defense since they were unable to beat any real top tier team outside of Oklahoma St.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

OSU scored only 20 against Purdue, 26 against Michigan St., 27 against Penn State, 28 against Washington. It wasn't like they bombed everyone they faced. Oh, that's the Purdue with the 113th ranked defense.

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/22/p3

He threw for 470 v Purdue. 470

MSU and Washington have top 20 defenses and hw still threw over 65% against both.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Kansas beat TCU as well. Again, not sure what kind of endorsement that is for the TCU defense since they were unable to beat any real top tier team outside of Oklahoma St.

Again...not a TEAM discussion. Nationally...based on stats and facts, TCU defense is top 25.

[Northman]

Again...not a TEAM discussion. Nationally...based on stats and facts, TCU defense is top 25.

If only stats told the hold story which we both know isnt the case.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

If only stats told the hold story which we both know isnt the case.

Then why do we judge teams and players by them?

[Northman]

Then why do we judge teams by them?

Guess ESPN should update their page then.



Sat, Oct 27
@
https://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/teamlogos/ncaa/500/2305.png&w=50&h=50 (http://www.espn.com/college-football/team/_/id/2305/kansas-jayhawks)Kansas (http://www.espn.com/college-football/team/_/id/2305/kansas-jayhawks)

L27-26 (http://www.espn.com/college-football/game/_/gameId/401013053)



http://www.espn.com/college-football/team/schedule/_/id/2628

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Every season has its peaks and valleys. At the end of it all...no QB threw for more yards and I'd put his TD/INT ratio against anyone. Same with completion%.

I hate OSU and Urban Meyer. But Haskins had a historic PASSING season. But those who probably didn't see him play a down assume he must be the same old OSU running QB.

[Northman]

I watched a lot of OSU games this year (because of the area i live in) im just not sold on him. I think he will bomb but its ok if you think he is awesome and will succeed. We just disagree.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Guess ESPN should update their page then.



Sat, Oct 27
@
https://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/teamlogos/ncaa/500/2305.png&w=50&h=50 (http://www.espn.com/college-football/team/_/id/2305/kansas-jayhawks)Kansas (http://www.espn.com/college-football/team/_/id/2305/kansas-jayhawks)

L27-26 (http://www.espn.com/college-football/game/_/gameId/401013053)



http://www.espn.com/college-football/team/schedule/_/id/2628

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/22

Look at 24

[Northman]

https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/22

Look at 24

But you said they didnt lose to Kansas.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I watched a lot of OSU games this year (because of the area i live in) im just not sold on him. I think he will bomb but its ok if you think he is awesome and will succeed. We just disagree.

That argument I can live with. Dude before you said OSU was all D and that Haskins was a typical OSU QB

[SmilinAssasSin27]

But you said they didnt lose to Kansas.

What does your quote say

[Northman]

That argument I can live with. Dude before you said OSU was all D and that Haskins was a typical OSU QB

I never said they were all D, maybe you are thinking of someone else. I do think he is a typical OSU QB though.

[Northman]

What does your quote say

You mean after you edited it? Lol

[OrangeHoof]

#2 offense...in the nation

70% completions

I got that. I'm just offering a counter-balance. You're betting on a guy with just 1-1/2 seasons of college experience who played with an entire offense full of high school All-Americans at every position. Now ask what is OSU's track record in producing NFL QBs? What is Meyer's track record?

I was dead wrong thinking Mahomes would be just another Texas Tech QB flop that had gaudy numbers in college. Maybe Haskins will be the same way but I'd rather let somebody else make that bet.

[OrangeHoof]

BTW, I can cite a QB who was over 70% completion pct. 2 years in a row, piled up 7,380 passing yards in his final two years *and* rushed for 909 yards, scoring 75 touchdowns by either air or ground.

That was Colt McCoy.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/colt-mccoy-1.html

[DenBronx]

https://scontent.fphl2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51851947_10161512561275644_9093442623246434304_n.j pg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent.fphl2-1.fna&oh=c27273846f9cb1443b401a7aae79a5e7&oe=5CF65216

Yeah alot of teams ****ed that one up. Mahommes is scary good.


I am jealous the Broncos do not have a QB that is a game changer.

[broncofaninfla]

BTW, I can cite a QB who was over 70% completion pct. 2 years in a row, piled up 7,380 passing yards in his final two years *and* rushed for 909 yards, scoring 75 touchdowns by either air or ground.

That was Colt McCoy.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/colt-mccoy-1.html

I've been trying to think of a good QB to compare Lock to and Colt McCoy may just be the best comparison to Lock.

[Elevation inc]

I've been trying to think of a good QB to compare Lock to and Colt McCoy may just be the best comparison to Lock.

Hmmm I feel Colt McCoy is closer to a Alex smith type then Lock, to me athletically Lock compares to cutler, with far better leaderships skills and Demeanor. People were pissed when we drafted cutler at 11....that was a supposed bad Qb class to that year. Cutler had great talent but bad work ethic, demeanor and leadership ability. I personally see a better package version of cutler in Lock.

[underrated29]

Hmmm I feel Colt McCoy is closer to a Alex smith type then Lock, to me athletically Lock compares to cutler, with far better leaderships skills and Demeanor. People were pissed when we drafted cutler at 11....that was a supposed bad Qb class to that year. Cutler had great talent but bad work ethic, demeanor and leadership ability. I personally see a better package version of cutler in Lock.



Mccoy was a weak arm little QB. He also was not ever very good. I never liked him as a prospect.


Its clear as day that Lock is a Cutler Clone. Without a doubt. Except, personality wise he is more like Peyton Manning. Dorky, but funny, very smart. NOW- who knows what he is like Mentally. That is something that we will not really be able to figure out. Can he read the D, can he adjust to blitz, protections, etc etc etc. That I cannot give a player comparison to as that is well out of my league.

But personality hes a fun dorky peyton manning guy. Physically he is a Jay cutler. Mobile, strong, amazing arm to make all throws, good solid build and height.

[TXBRONC]

Mccoy was a weak arm little QB. He also was not ever very good. I never liked him as a prospect.


Its clear as day that Lock is a Cutler Clone. Without a doubt. Except, personality wise he is more like Peyton Manning. Dorky, but funny, very smart. NOW- who knows what he is like Mentally. That is something that we will not really be able to figure out. Can he read the D, can he adjust to blitz, protections, etc etc etc. That I cannot give a player comparison to as that is well out of my league.

But personality hes a fun dorky peyton manning guy. Physically he is a Jay cutler. Mobile, strong, amazing arm to make all throws, good solid build and height.

Well you're not very good at player evaluations either, but you never let that stop you from giving your opinion. :heh:

J/K :D

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I got that. I'm just offering a counter-balance. You're betting on a guy with just 1-1/2 seasons of college experience who played with an entire offense full of high school All-Americans at every position. Now ask what is OSU's track record in producing NFL QBs? What is Meyer's track record?

I was dead wrong thinking Mahomes would be just another Texas Tech QB flop that had gaudy numbers in college. Maybe Haskins will be the same way but I'd rather let somebody else make that bet.

I just think your original comment was a bit of a lazy one. Aside from skin color, he has exactly zero in common with the prior OSU QBs. Dude is actually a terrible runner. And to say that he is only productive due to his WR talent takes away from Lawrence, Tua, Watson, Luck, Manning, etc. Most big time QBs come from big time programs. These programs all have HS All Americans all over the place.

Haskins is no sure thing. Nobody is. But I see no evidence to support anything going against his potential to be a stud. As you can already tell, I'm a completion% guy. What a guy does with his opportunities is more telling to me than total #s. This dude has the % and the #s. He's not dumping a bunch of screen passes. Dude wings it all over the place. To me, be it 1 and a half years or not, he came out and dominated. I'd much rather that than take someone who couldn't do half that with 3 years experience.

[TXBRONC]

I just think your original comment was a bit of a lazy one. Aside from skin color, he has exactly zero in common with the prior OSU QBs. Dude is actually a terrible runner. And to say that he is only productive due to his WR talent takes away from Lawrence, Tua, Watson, Luck, Manning, etc. Most big time QBs come from big time programs. These programs all have HS All Americans all over the place.

Haskins is no sure thing. Nobody is. But I see no evidence to support anything going against his potential to be a stud. As you can already tell, I'm a completion% guy. What a guy does with his opportunities is more telling to me than total #s. This dude has the % and the #s. He's not dumping a bunch of screen passes. Dude wings it all over the place. To me, be it 1 and a half years or not, he came out and dominated. I'd much rather that than take someone who couldn't do half that with 3 years experience.

Just as an aside, Tebow had a terrific completion percentage in college but couldn't hit water if he was standing in the middle of a lake when he got to the pros. I am not saying that's Haskins. I've only seen highlights of him.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Just as an aside, Tebow had a terrific completion percentage in college but couldn't hit water if he was standing in the middle of a lake when he got to the pros. I am not saying that's Haskins. I've only seen highlights of him.

Now THAT guy worked in the typical Urban offense. I do get your point though. And I agree that Haskins is no sure thing. But ya simply can't dismiss the resume.

[TXBRONC]

Now THAT guy worked in the typical Urban offense. I do get your point though. And I agree that Haskins is no sure thing. But ya simply can't dismiss the resume.

I don't and won't. If Denver drafted him I would be pulling for him to succeed just like do with any other pick.

At this point, I starting to think you all who advocated for drafting a different position have the right of it.

[Jsteve01]

BTW, I can cite a QB who was over 70% completion pct. 2 years in a row, piled up 7,380 passing yards in his final two years *and* rushed for 909 yards, scoring 75 touchdowns by either air or ground.

That was Colt McCoy.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/colt-mccoy-1.html
Im sorry but the analogy holds no water for numerous reasons. The most simple being physical traits. Mccoy was a weak armed plus athlete who didnt have the arm talent or intangibles to compete at a high nfl level. Haskins on the other hand is a strong armed average athlete who has all the physical attributes (arm talent, anticipation, leadership, and accuracy) to succeed at the nfl level. Tossing him in with cardale and braxton and even Barrett is rather lazy. He is the best thrower of the football in this draft by a large margin. I keep hearing all the tweaks we will need to make to locks game while the huge knock on Barrett are perception and limited game expexperience. He just threw for 70% and Lock has never sniffed 65%.

[OrangeHoof]

The endorsement of completion percentage and total offense ranking as your reasons for proclaiming Haskins as a top QB in the draft was why I brought up McCoy. I wanted to illustrate that someone else with 70%+ completion percentage in college and leading the NCAAs in offense does not always equate to being a first-rounder. I wasn't saying Haskins = McCoy. I was shooting holes in your premise that completion percentage and total offense made him worthy of a first-round draft grade. Judging from the reactions posted, I did too good a job of it.

I also disagree with the premise that the best college quarterbacks have All-Americans surrounding them. A decent percentage of top QB prospects come from *losing* college programs where they nonetheless develop pro-style QBs. Purdue (Brees), Vanderbilt (Cutler), Duke, Cal, Stanford, Kentucky and Missouri are not great programs but they attract top QBs because they traditionally are behind and pass the ball a lot. This was particularly true in the days when Alabama, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Ohio State, USC, etc. ran option offenses that ran 75% of the time. They were winning conference and national titles but their QBs were better at running than they were passing. If you wanted to be sought as an NFL-ready QB, you went to the first group of schools above, not the second.

[UnderArmour]

I am guessing Haskins, Lock, and Murray will be brought in for private workouts. So much of early QB success depends on supporting cast and coaching, two things that the Broncos can provide. I expect the Broncos to toss next year's first to jump up on the board, and somehow keep this year's second to address corner or ILB.

I did not watch enough OSU film to know how good Haskins really is. The Cutler comparisons on Lock are spot on, and I feel the Russell Wilson comparisons on Murray are also spot on. I think I would be happy with any of them, and honestly I think all 3 are better prospects than Rosen or Allen.

[Jsteve01]

I couldnt draft murray unless he is more candid about his commitment to football. Came of horribly with patrick

[Jsteve01]

At this point I would be okay and just okay with lock or Haskins at 10, but there's no way I trade up for either of those guys. Regardless of making a case for Haskins he still has warts, and the thing for lock is he's another guy with a quirky personality. So take it for what it is but I have a customer from Missouri who son played against lock throughout their high school years, he described him as a big dumb dork. Now I'm sure his team lost to lock repeatedly in that could definitely impact his opinion of Drew, but we just had a big gifted dorky quarterback who flamed out.

[TXBRONC]

At this point I would be okay and just okay with lock or Haskins at 10, but there's no way I trade up for either of those guys. Regardless of making a case for Haskins he still has warts, and the thing for lock is he's another guy with a quirky personality. So take it for what it is but I have a customer from Missouri who son played against lock throughout their high school years, he described him as a big dumb dork. Now I'm sure his team lost to lock repeatedly in that could definitely impact his opinion of Drew, but we just had a big gifted dorky quarterback who flamed out.

I don't think Lynch flamed out because he's a dork, but from what I remember there were questions about his commitment to study. I think generally one of the biggest problems is young quarterbacks they have trouble to committing themselves to study. I'm not including Haskins or Lock in that I don't know what their study habits are like.

[Elevation inc]

I don't think Lynch flamed out because he's a dork, but from what I remember there were questions about his commitment to study. I think generally one of the biggest problems is young quarterbacks they have trouble to committing themselves to study. I'm not including Haskins or Lock in that I don't know what their study habits are like.

your correct Paxton flamed out because of poor work ethic.....

[Jsteve01]

your correct Paxton flamed out because of poor work ethic.....

Complete speculation. He was always working with qb coaches in the offseason. The problem wad he is aloof and dumb. Im not being a jerk. His wonderlic was bad

[Elevation inc]

Im sorry but the analogy holds no water for numerous reasons. The most simple being physical traits. Mccoy was a weak armed plus athlete who didnt have the arm talent or intangibles to compete at a high nfl level. Haskins on the other hand is a strong armed average athlete who has all the physical attributes (arm talent, anticipation, leadership, and accuracy) to succeed at the nfl level. Tossing him in with cardale and braxton and even Barrett is rather lazy. He is the best thrower of the football in this draft by a large margin. I keep hearing all the tweaks we will need to make to locks game while the huge knock on Barrett are perception and limited game expexperience. He just threw for 70% and Lock has never sniffed 65%.


For comparison I think Mahomes barely hit 65% in his higher year in college as well. There really isn't anything that concerns me about lock or Haskins though as prospects in this draft other than perhaps only 1 and some change years of experience for Haskins, and the first season when lock had like a 49% completion percentage lol, but they did show good to great growth throughout there time in college.......Most likely it will take a year before Haskins is ready to be the guy and finds his groove, which is why a team like the Giants or Denver that already has a vet in place is a perfect spot for him. I have been touting Lock as a top 10 QB as well, as he is a tailor made franchise QB prospect like cutler was with much better work ethic and leadership....We would be dumb to not want that here.

Haskins or Lock I would be Fine with. I prefer Lock or Thorson but Drafting Haskins wouldn't have me upset at all.....

[CoachChaz]

Complete speculation. He was always working with qb coaches in the offseason. The problem wad he is aloof and dumb. Im not being a jerk. His wonderlic was bad

Don't be surprised if you see a similar score for Lock.

[Freyaka]

I couldnt draft murray unless he is more candid about his commitment to football. Came of horribly with patrick

Until he grows 3 inches, I won't be interested....

[Elevation inc]

Complete speculation. He was always working with qb coaches in the offseason. The problem wad he is aloof and dumb. Im not being a jerk. His wonderlic was bad

No there are quotes from coaches, players, media that he wasn't really focused on football all the time, and didn't always want to put in the time. Its fine if your working with the coaches when your supposed to be. but the good Qb's go above and beyond to work on their craft when no one is around and they are by themselves.....Paxton didn't.

[Elevation inc]

Don't be surprised if you see a similar score for Lock.


I'm not so sure, there are reports he has good football smarts. The report he is very aloof is also out there though....There is however a big difference between being aloof, and being a space cadet with low attention span like Lynch had....As for the Wonderlic....Blaine Gabbert had a 42 and Cam Newton 21....so there is that lol

I expect lock to be around 25 on the wonderlic....in line with Big ben, Cutler, Russell Wilson to name a few examples....

[CoachChaz]

I'm not so sure, there are reports he has good football smarts. The report he is very aloof is also out there though....There is however a big difference between being aloof, and being a space cadet with low attention span like Lynch had....As for the Wonderlic....Blaine Gabbert had a 42 and Cam Newton 21....so there is that lol

I expect lock to be around 25 on the wonderlic....in line with Big ben, Cutler, Russell Wilson to name a few examples....

All I can go on is what I've seen in games. Personally, I think his mental processing needs a bunch of work, which leads to his "gunslinger" mentality. So, I think he'll be a capable QB, but never a cerebral one. At least not early on.

[Elevation inc]

All I can go on is what I've seen in games. Personally, I think his mental processing needs a bunch of work, which leads to his "gunslinger" mentality. So, I think he'll be a capable QB, but never a cerebral one. At least not early on.

So I would agree here with you especially early on. I don't ever think he will be a guy like Peyton manning. I do however think he will be just like cutler athletically and from a football talent perspective. His leadership and personality are better then Cutler as well. For me that talent possibility is worth our first pick.

[CoachChaz]

So I would agree here with you especially early on. I don't ever think he will be a guy like Peyton manning. I do however think he will be just like cutler athletically and from a football talent perspective. His leadership and personality are better then Cutler as well. For me that talent possibility is worth our first pick.

I would be ok with him at 10...but if we have to give up too much capital to move up to get him, then I'm content waiting til next year.

[Elevation inc]

I would be ok with him at 10...but if we have to give up too much capital to move up to get him, then I'm content waiting til next year.

Fair, but we could have to give up even more to move up next year.....I personally hate the wait until next year for a top QB thing.....There is zero guarantee at this moment for next year. Way to many possibilities to alter next years path.....Herbert was a supposed first pick lock this year then he played like crap, and had to go back to school to help his stock....Personally the only prospect I see as a surefire the next 2 years is Lawrence, and for all we know he could get injured next year....In order for us to be in the discussion next year for a top 3 QB we would need to have a similar record as this year, and I just don't see that happening even with case at QB. Good coaching could have gotten us at least 3 more wins this year and we wouldn't even be having a top QB discussion right now......

[Elevation inc]

I would be ok with him at 10...but if we have to give up too much capital to move up to get him, then I'm content waiting til next year.

I'm also not upset if we pass on the top 3, grab a blue chip Defensive player at 10 and then draft a Qb later on. I'm a huge fan of Thorson, and his momentum from scouts is on a upswing right now.....

[Jsteve01]

I would much prefer defensive stud at 10 to trading up

Then take your favorite of jackson, thorson, stidham, finley and Jordan Ta'amu on day 2. Ta'amu reminds me of Dak. Lazy analysis i know but i like him

[underrated29]

At this point I would be okay and just okay with lock or Haskins at 10, but there's no way I trade up for either of those guys. Regardless of making a case for Haskins he still has warts, and the thing for lock is he's another guy with a quirky personality. So take it for what it is but I have a customer from Missouri who son played against lock throughout their high school years, he described him as a big dumb dork. Now I'm sure his team lost to lock repeatedly in that could definitely impact his opinion of Drew, but we just had a big gifted dorky quarterback who flamed out.




There is a difference between dork and dumbass.


Dorks:
Peyton
Eli
Brady
Rivers


Dumbass:
Lynch
Manziel
Mallett




There is nothing wrong with being a dork. The guy is smart and wont get into trouble and likely will get along with teamates just fine. What he may not have is that Raw Raw IT factor that Tebow has. The inspiring thing. He may also not be able to read a defense yet or at all. Those we cannot tell. But being a dork is fine. Paxton was and is a clown. He was never a dork. I think there is a big difference here. One that is important to note. They are not the same personality wise or mentally imo.

FTR I never liked Paxton. I do like Lock. I am not sure he can raw raw his team to get up and make the winning drive, but I also do not think he is incapable of driving down the field to make the winning drive either.



Look at our very own board.

NTL = Dork. (not a dumbass)

Dumbasses:
Shane (I still love you shane)
Frey and Northy

Big difference

[Northman]

Phewww, glad i wasnt used as an example.

[underrated29]

Phewww, glad i wasnt used as an example.



You keep it up with your "I mean" and "should of" and I will have no choice but to demonstrate at your expense. For now, you are clear of all wrongdoing.

[Northman]

You keep it up with your "I mean" and "should of" and I will have no choice but to demonstrate at your expense. For now, you are clear of all wrongdoing.

I mean, i should of been used but wasnt. ...

[underrated29]

I mean, i should of been used but wasnt. ...

I successfully know how to work and use the edit function, Northy. Better watch it SMARTass :cool:

[Freyaka]

You keep it up with your "I mean" and "should of" and I will have no choice but to demonstrate at your expense. For now, you are clear of all wrongdoing.

I mean you have to realize it's intentional at this point right? You should of never said anything about it.

[underrated29]

I mean you have to realize it's intentional at this point right? You should of never said anything about it.

This travesty will not stand!

[Freyaka]

This travesty will not stand!

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/webdr01/2013/4/8/13/anigif_enhanced-buzz-8696-1365442611-5.gif

[UnderArmour]

I couldnt draft murray unless he is more candid about his commitment to football. Came of horribly with patrick

That's what the interview process at the combine and the private workout process is for. Murray is a competitor and a team player, so it's more about his willingness to commit to the Denver Broncos over the Oakland A's than it is to commit to football over baseball. Guy did nothing but give is blood, sweat, and tears for OU, and I would expect him to do the same for the Broncos if he is drafted. I expect him to use baseball as a means to control where he lands though.

[TXBRONC]

That's what the interview process at the combine and the private workout process is for. Murray is a competitor and a team player, so it's more about his willingness to commit to the Denver Broncos over the Oakland A's than it is to commit to football over baseball. Guy did nothing but give is blood, sweat, and tears for OU, and I would expect him to do the same for the Broncos if he is drafted. I expect him to use baseball as a means to control where he lands though.

I doubt he will have the kind of leverage Elway or the Mannings had. I haven't heard that he's viewed as first overall pick in his draft class. If he gets to cute about it he'll drop.

[Jsteve01]

That's what the interview process at the combine and the private workout process is for. Murray is a competitor and a team player, so it's more about his willingness to commit to the Denver Broncos over the Oakland A's than it is to commit to football over baseball. Guy did nothing but give is blood, sweat, and tears for OU, and I would expect him to do the same for the Broncos if he is drafted. I expect him to use baseball as a means to control where he lands though.
I think you need to watch The Dan Patrick interview. He didn't come off well at all. And I understand the interview process will be important, but when you're already talking about a guy that's going to be viewed skeptically because of his size, and then you toss out the baseball, then you toss out the fact that many view him as a system quarterback, and he doesn't do himself any favors unless he says yes I'm committedt wholeheartedly to football over baseball

[aberdien]

When Elway is "high" on a QB:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Da1fKYdUQAEUMHj.jpg

[TXBRONC]

I think you need to watch The Dan Patrick interview. He didn't come off well at all. And I understand the interview process will be important, but when you're already talking about a guy that's going to be viewed skeptically because of his size, and then you toss out the baseball, then you toss out the fact that many view him as a system quarterback, and he doesn't do himself any favors unless he says yes I'm committedt wholeheartedly to football over baseball

I don't Murray has the kind of leverage that Elway or the Mannings had. He's got a ton talent but he's not being talk number one overall pick in the draft. Elway had baseball but he was also prototypical quarterback. Fair or unfair Murray being 5'10" and 195 lbs is going cause teams to take pause.

[UnderArmour]

I doubt he will have the kind of leverage Elway or the Mannings had. I haven't heard that he's viewed as first overall pick in his draft class. If he gets to cute about it he'll drop.

Murray is a better baseball prospect than Elway was, so arguably he has more leverage in that his baseball threat is more credible.

Issue is... How good of a football prospect is Murray really? He had one year as the full time starter at OSU, and was arguably better than Mayfield who went #1 last year. Murray is a polarizing prospect by nature, but is it one of those scenarios where he really is a top-5 pick talent that sneaks down to 10, or is he a top 140 talent that sneaks down to 32?

Either way, there's no way in hell this guy doesn't sneak his baseball signing bonus as long as he can. Scott Boras is extremely pissed at this whole scenario, because he now has to go to all the MLB teams and apologize, plus he has to register with the NFLPA as an NFL agent to keep a QB that might be going top 10 and receive massive endorsements, because his guy is a straight-up baller.

Basically. I would take Murray at 10 if he committed privately to Elway, but kept saying he was going to play baseball publicly.

[nevcraw]

Until he grows 3 inches, I won't be interested....

Brees, Wilson, baker have proved this thinking to be quite passé. Short qb’s can be just as successful as the giraffes

[TXBRONC]

Murray is a better baseball prospect than Elway was, so arguably he has more leverage in that his baseball threat is more credible.

Issue is... How good of a football prospect is Murray really? He had one year as the full time starter at OSU, and was arguably better than Mayfield who went #1 last year. Murray is a polarizing prospect by nature, but is it one of those scenarios where he really is a top-5 pick talent that sneaks down to 10, or is he a top 140 talent that sneaks down to 32?

Either way, there's no way in hell this guy doesn't sneak his baseball signing bonus as long as he can. Scott Boras is extremely pissed at this whole scenario, because he now has to go to all the MLB teams and apologize, plus he has to register with the NFLPA as an NFL agent to keep a QB that might be going top 10 and receive massive endorsements, because his guy is a straight-up baller.

Basically. I would take Murray at 10 if he committed privately to Elway, but kept saying he was going to play baseball publicly.

I don't know if Murray is a better baseball prospect but I do know Elway was good enough that he was considered a five tool player and would have had long MLB career. Elway had more leverage because he was great quarterback. Murray is great athlete but necessarily a great quarterback.

That aside, I would not take him at, I doubt would as well.

[TXBRONC]

Brees, Wilson, baker have proved this thinking to be quite passé. Short qb’s can be just as successful as the giraffes

The difference is all of those guy are well over 200 lbs. Brees is the smallest at 209 lbs.

[Freyaka]

Brees, Wilson, baker have proved this thinking to be quite passé. Short qb’s can be just as successful as the giraffes

Not really...They are the exception to the rule and he's about 2-3 inches SHORTER than they are.

[OrangeHoof]

Elway had the fortune of being drafted by the Yankees during the Steinbrenner Era which means George could match anything an NFL owner could pay Elway. Elway also played some that summer in the Yankees farm system. I think baseball scouts felt Elway was a borderline baseball talent (to reach the majors) but that Steinbrenner could pay for whatever he wanted. Elway's choice: Be a once in a generation QB talent or a backup OF in the majors.

Oakland is universally known as the Moneyball team that has to be cheap with their payroll and trade away players who reach a high salary. IOW, an NFL owner just needs to flash more cash and Murray (or his agent) will follow. I honestly can't say how Murray grades out with baseball scouts so it is hard to assess his skills in one sport over the other but certainly he won't be some 40-HR slugger without some artificial help so his ticket to stardom would appear to be as a football player.

[OrangeHoof]

And, just like that, Murray announces he'll play football:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/kyler-murray-chooses-nfl-over-mlb-wants-to-prove-i-am-the-franchise-qb-in-this-draft/

[underrated29]

Perfect!

That only helps the broncos.

[dogfish]

Perfect!

That only helps the broncos.

yea. . . hopefully somebody takes that midget ahead of us, and it causes devin white to fall to #10. . .

[Northman]

And, just like that, Murray announces he'll play football:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/kyler-murray-chooses-nfl-over-mlb-wants-to-prove-i-am-the-franchise-qb-in-this-draft/

And with that Lock gets that much closer to us. I like it.

[OrangeHoof]

Perfect!

That only helps the broncos.

As long as we don't draft him. Maybe Washington or Detroit is that dumb...

[TXBRONC]

yea. . . hopefully somebody takes that midget ahead of us, and it causes devin white to fall to #10. . .

Even he's there when Denver drafts it doesn't mean Elway is interested in him.