John Elway tried to hire Mike Shanahan; Joe Ellis blocked it!

[Cugel]

John Elway tried to hire Mike Shanahan; Joe Ellis blocked it!

How things might have been different if Joe Ellis wasn’t in charge of the Denver Broncos and held grudges. (https://www.milehighreport.com/2018/12/17/18144528/john-elway-hire-mike-shanahan-joe-ellis-said-no)

This story is all over the news now:




@woodypaige: Secret meetings nearly led to far different coaching, QB outcome for Broncos#BroncosCountry #broncoshttp://gazette.com/premium/woody-paige-secret-meetings-nearly-led-to-far-different-coaching/article_f40524e6-0196-11e9-afe0-677db2f9f2bf.html …
81
9:47 PM - Dec 16, 2018
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Woody Paige: Secret meetings nearly led to far different coaching, QB outcome for Broncos

The Duke and The Mastermind, who were united as quarterback and coach, colleagues, chess partners and closest friends through nine seasons and five Super Bowls, nearly reunited a year ago
gazette.com

The two would have aggressively pursued Kirk Cousins to reset the franchise and move forward with a Shanahan/Cousins pairing. Instead, Joe Ellis stepped in and blocked the potential hiring from ever happening bringing forth another year with Vance Joseph and Elway having to settle for Case Keenum.

Ellis is apparently more concerned about potential power struggles within the organization than winning and it would appear, Ellis is interfering with and acting as owner of the Broncos - to the franchises detriment. If true, I believe he should step back and let Elway actually do his job.

Shanahan remains the second winningest coach in Broncos history behind John Fox (Thank you, Peyton!) and could have likely done much more with the talent the Broncos have on offense in 2018.

Instead, we get to wait for the next way Ellis will decide the fate of this franchise. He was the man who brought in Josh McDaniels too, you know. And now he could end up being the man who led this franchise to back-to-back losing seasons for the first time since 1972.

The full story is behind a paywall, but it's all over the radio, and Mark Schlereth confirms that he learned of this from private sources inside the Broncos organization.

Apparently, Elway WANTED to fire VJ at the end of last season, but Joe Ellis didn't feel that he wanted the organization to go in that direction. There could be a lot of reasons, starting with the fact that Joe Ellis was part of the initial decision to fire Shanny in the first place.

If this is true, then Ellis frankly needs to get out of the way. If there's a chance the Broncos could hire Shanahan back again?

Elway and Shanahan agreed to the power sharing relationship. John would of course remain as GM and have complete power over Player-personnel decisions which was Shanny's Achilles Heal when he was coaching here - drafting losers like DE Jarvis Moss and giving up draft picks to move up and get him.

Mike wasn't great in Washington with a dysfunctional ownership who kept insisting that RGIII was the Redskins QB and who kept refusing to invest in Kirk Cousins (who was Shanny's choice). That's why they fired him out of DC.

But, do we want Mike McCarthy? News out of Baltimore now is that Harbaugh is no way getting fired, and if he was there would be a LOT of choices for him, he's not necessarily eager to come to Denver which does not have a starting QB.

We certainly don't want another rookie "star coordinator" with zero head coaching experience in the NFL, and frankly, there's not even such a candidate right now. Most of the "hot coordinators" got hired this past season. We've been down that road. They need to hire a veteran.

Thoughts?

[Cugel]

Latest News From Mike Klis: Joe Ellis quickly announces that Mike Shanahan is NOT going to be a "consideration" for a head coaching job in 2019. He's been eliminated from any competition.

Joe Ellis is very obviously the one who needs to be fired if he's still blocking this and he's the one who insisted on keeping Vance Joseph.


Sources: Elway chose Joseph over coaching search after 2017 season
Denver Broncos GM briefly considered Shanahan-Cousins package before giving Joseph another chance with Case Keenum.
Author: Mike Klis
Published: 7:32 AM MST December 17, 2018
Updated: 9:48 AM MST December 17, 2018

KUSA – Confronted with a surprising, last-minute possibility of Mike Shanahan coming back to coach the Denver Broncos, Joe Ellis hours before the team’s 2017 finale against the Kansas City Chiefs, presented John Elway with two options.

Fire current coach Vance Joseph if Elway so desired, but come up with a comprehensive coaching search in which Shanahan would not be a candidate. Been there, done that was Ellis’ feelings on Shanahan, who was fired by owner Pat Bowlen after the 2008 season. Shanahan had just one playoff win in his final 10 seasons when he was dismissed after the team blew a three-game AFC West lead with three to play in 2008.

The second option, Ellis told Elway, was to keep Vance Joseph and give him a second season with a better quarterback. Either option did not involve the return of Shanahan, who was the Broncos’ head coach from 1995-2008 and led the franchise to its first two Super Bowl titles in back-to-back seasons of 1997-98 – Elway’s final two seasons as the team’s quarterback.
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This was why Elway told 9NEWS following the Broncos loss to the Chiefs that he “was going to sleep on it.” On Monday morning, January 1 of this year, Elway informed Ellis that he wanted to keep Joseph. Elway then met with Joseph to tell the coach he was giving him another chance.

9NEWS spoke to multiple sources in and outside Broncos headquarters about the confusing events that took place near the end of last season. As the team was suffering through an eight-game losing streak that was the franchise’s worst in 50 years, Ellis, the Broncos’ chief executive officer, and Elway, the team’s general manager, held several discussions about how best to move forward in attempt to return the team to its usual prominence.

As the Broncos carried a 5-10 record into their December 31, 2017 home game against the Chiefs, Ellis and Elway agreed during the week that Joseph should get another chance with an upgrade at the quarterback position.

At the time, the speculation was two prominent quarterbacks would be available in free agency: Washington’s Kirk Cousins and Minnesota’s Case Keenum. Cousins had ties to Shanahan. Two years after Shanahan was dismissed from his Broncos’ job, he became Washington’s head coach from 2010-13.

Shanahan selected Cousins in the fourth round of the 2012 draft. Elway got the idea that Shanahan and Cousins could be a package deal.

Shanahan must have expressed enough interest. On Sunday morning, ESPN reporter Adam Schefter – who was a Broncos beat writer during the Shanahan-Elway heyday – reported Joseph “faces increasingly long odds at being retained and returning for his second season.’’

After the Schefter report, Elway presented the possibility of Shanahan to Ellis, who then asked for a couple hours to consider, according to sources.

Ellis then gave Elway his two options – dismiss Joseph if he so chose but conduct a thorough head coaching search or keep the coach for a second season. However, Ellis let it be known the franchise had moved on from Shanahan, who turned 66 in August and had been out of the coaching business since 2013.

After sleeping on it, Elway decided to keep Joseph and in free agency he wound up signing Keenum to a two-year, $36 million contract that included $25 million fully guaranteed, while Cousins took a three-year, $84 million contract from Minnesota in which all $84 million was fully guaranteed.

[Northman]

Well, this would back up the statement made by UR about Ellis being the one to over rule John on VJ.

[DenBronx]

I wonder if this is partially why Bowlens brother brought a suit against Ellis?

[Magnificent Seven]

Joe Ellis has the full control and things didn't go well. They should let him go. I think Bowlens are on Elway's side.

[Cugel]

Woody Paige just was interviewed on 104.3 the Fan. He confirmed he talked to 7 different people before reporting this and that 5 of them were in the room. Elway and Shanahan worked out a deal, Joe Ellis nixed it and told Elway that he could fire Joseph. But, he could not hire Shanahan and instead had to choose between firing Joseph and conducting a coaching search or keeping VJ. He chose to keep VJ.

Shanahan still believes that Joe Ellis got him fired originally, that Joe went to Pat Bowlen and told him it just wasn't working out and that they should fire Shanahan. Ellis as Pat's financial advisor supposedly had a strained relationship with Mike as GM and coach.

I don't know any part of that. It would seem like Mike Shanahan might have had a grievance, but no part of him coming back would involve him having any power over Joe Ellis' control over the team, nor would he, Shanahan have any power as GM.

Reporting from Woodie Paige is that Shanahan agreed he would stick to coaching and let Elway be the GM. So I don't know why there would be a problem on Joe Ellis' part, but apparently, his reaction to the whole Elway decision was "we've already been down that road with Mike."

As to the reports that have been denied that Cousins met with Shanahan, what specifically was denied was that any meetings took place in Denver. Supposedly, Cousins considered that he would like to work with Mike, since Mike basically drafted him, discovered him, backed him as the Redskins starting QB in the face of Dan Snyder insisting that RGIII was the starter. They then fired Shanahan because he wanted to play Cousins, not RGIII.

So, supposedly, Cousins would work out a deal to come and play for Shanny in Denver, and that deal would be below what he wound up receiving to go to MN. Certainly Cousins has every reason to deny that story, since it would make his new team feel like they were his second choice, and at a time when the MN fans and media are not thrilled with him or the Vikings disappointing season. So, I don't believe that they never talked, but maybe it wasn't in Denver.

[Cugel]

I wonder if this is partially why Bowlens brother brought a suit against Ellis?

No. The reason was that Joe Ellis and the Trust rejected Beth Bowlen as owner. Beth is already 40 and could theoretically take control now, but Ellis and the trust keep insisting that she's "not qualified." Bill Bowlen essentially intervened although he sold his interest in the team a few years ago, arguing that the Trust was acting without taking the family's interests to heart and that they should negotiate a termination date when they will turn over power to one of the children.

Well, Ellis immediately released a very hostile statement against Bill Bowlen, essentially telling him to get lost and denying everything he said. The Trust is in a tough spot because they want Brittany Bowlen, but she's 28.

And Pat apparently thought that the child to inherit should be 40 or more. If he put that into the Trust Agreement, the Trust is in a tough spot. It will be hard for Joe Ellis to keep the Trust in control for another 12 years. So, if they don't want Beth, and Pat's son has disqualified himself by getting arrested for drunk driving or whatever it was, the Trust's preference would be to sell the team to an outside party.

That would of course trigger lawsuits from all the Bowlen children, because both Beth and Brittany want control. Neither wants to sell the team. It's a huge mess.

[ShaneFalco]

joe ellis can **** off then. sounds like a guy who doesnt have a clue

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Adam Schefter is on 104.3 the fan now talking about this

[Tangerine]

You simply can't ignore the timing of this story coming out, the day after the Broncos are eliminated from the playoffs, and now that's it's almost a certainty that VJ gets fired.

[TXBRONC]

Adam Schefter is on 104.3 the fan now talking about this

Carol can you give us cliff notes?

[Rick]

No. The reason was that Joe Ellis and the Trust rejected Beth Bowlen as owner. Beth is already 40 and could theoretically take control now, but Ellis and the trust keep insisting that she's "not qualified." Bill Bowlen essentially intervened although he sold his interest in the team a few years ago, arguing that the Trust was acting without taking the family's interests to heart and that they should negotiate a termination date when they will turn over power to one of the children.

Well, Ellis immediately released a very hostile statement against Bill Bowlen, essentially telling him to get lost and denying everything he said. The Trust is in a tough spot because they want Brittany Bowlen, but she's 28.

And Pat apparently thought that the child to inherit should be 40 or more. If he put that into the Trust Agreement, the Trust is in a tough spot. It will be hard for Joe Ellis to keep the Trust in control for another 12 years. So, if they don't want Beth, and Pat's son has disqualified himself by getting arrested for drunk driving or whatever it was, the Trust's preference would be to sell the team to an outside party.

That would of course trigger lawsuits from all the Bowlen children, because both Beth and Brittany want control. Neither wants to sell the team. It's a huge mess.

Where are you coming up with this 40 years old thing. Outside of you, I have never read this. Have a link?

[Cugel]

Where are you coming up with this 40 years old thing. Outside of you, I have never read this. Have a link?

That's been reported all over the radio. I haven't looked at the Trust Agreement, if it's even public, so I don't know. But as someone who routinely drafts wills and trusts, it would not be a surprising condition. Many lawyers put such terms into trust agreements to avoid children inheriting a large estate outright at 18 years old, which is what happens if you die without a will leaving children to inherit.

Inheriting control over a multi-billion dollar business is not something you want an 18 year old or even 25 year old to do. There are a lot of conditions as well, which the Trust has published - such as having an advanced business or law degree, experience with the team, etc.

I don't know why they feel Beth Bowlen isn't qualified, but Joe Ellis is adamant that she isn't. And Bill Bowlen is suing over that. Brittany has publicly stated that she's not qualified right now, but she wants to get control at some point.

So, she's not suing because the Trust wants to give it to her, but they'd supposedly have to wait until she's 40 unless they reform the Trust instrument or something. Their 2nd choice is supposedly to sell the team, but that will not be popular with anybody, the fans, the media, the Bowlen family.

[Cugel]

You simply can't ignore the timing of this story coming out, the day after the Broncos are eliminated from the playoffs, and now that's it's almost a certainty that VJ gets fired.

Apparently Mark Schlereth has known about this for months. So did Woody Paige, but he felt it wasn't the right time to release it, when the Broncos were still in the playoffs. The story has circulated for months to Broncos insiders, media, former players who are still connected to Dove Valley, etc.

But, until Woody interviewed the witnesses, nobody wanted to talk about it for the record, and they all insisted on his not using their names too in order not to have to deal with criticism inside the building for leaking I suppose.

[MOtorboat]

Where are you coming up with this 40 years old thing. Outside of you, I have never read this. Have a link?

It’s been in Nicki Jhabvala’s reporting (former Denver Post, now at the Athletic). It’s subscription, don’t shoot the messenger.

https://theathletic.com/702195/2018/12/08/in-lengthy-objection-bill-bowlen-accuses-trustees-running-the-broncos-of-using-a-delay-tactic/

[Poet]

We blazed a trail by hiring Shanahan in the first place.

Ellis was right to block the move. You move forward. Not backwards.

[Tbolt]

We blazed a trail by hiring Shanahan in the first place.

Ellis was right to block the move. You move forward. Not backwards.

Are you Action on the other board? Was keeping VJ moving forward?

You want to move sideways, but stay perpendicular, then make small circles with your arms, that is how it is done!

JFC, no QB before Manning had won a SB for two different teams either. Guess we should never have tried that move, because it would have been a move to the left in an easterly manner.

[aberdien]

Are you Action on the other board? Was keeping VJ moving forward?

You want to move sideways, but stay perpendicular, then make small circles with your arms, that is how it is done!

JFC, no QB before Manning had won a SB for two different teams either. Guess we should never have tried that move, because it would have been a move to the left in an easterly manner.

The likelihood of striking nostalgic gold twice is extremely low. I like Shanny and would love to see him work with our offense. If this hiring ended up happening, I wouldn't be mad. But people don't generally win the lottery twice. We would probably be a playoff team, but beyond that I don't think it's a SB move. It would be interesting however, and I would be fine with it if he is the best person for the job and if the previous reported arrangement of him not being GM hold true.

[Poet]

Are you Action on the other board? Was keeping VJ moving forward?

You want to move sideways, but stay perpendicular, then make small circles with your arms, that is how it is done!

JFC, no QB before Manning had won a SB for two different teams either. Guess we should never have tried that move, because it would have been a move to the left in an easterly manner.

What other board?

You keep moving forward. So if VJ isn't working you...keep going forward. You want to go backwards.

You're comparing going back to a former HC to signing arguably the best QB ever. That's not apples to apples. That's apples to doorknobs. You have a solid night.

[Tbolt]

The likelihood of striking nostalgic gold twice is extremely low. I like Shanny and would love to see him work with our offense. If this hiring ended up happening, I wouldn't be mad. But people don't generally win the lottery twice. We would probably be a playoff team, but beyond that I don't think it's a SB move. It would be interesting however, and I would be fine with it if he is the best person for the job and if the previous reported arrangement of him not being GM hold true.

People don't generally win the lottery once, so what is your point? Ted Marchibroda went back to the Colts and took that Captain Comeback led team to the AFCCG, and a whisker away from the SB. And I don't think too many people would rate Marchibroda over Shanahan.

[Tbolt]

What other board?

You keep moving forward. So if VJ isn't working you...keep going forward. You want to go backwards.

You're comparing going back to a former HC to signing arguably the best QB ever. That's not apples to apples. That's apples to doorknobs. You have a solid night.

So it was a mistake to bring Wade Phillips back as the DC, because, we had already tried that and were smoked by the Montana 49ers in the SB... Ergo, it was a mistake to go back to the well. How did that work out again?

[Poet]

I think it's pretty clear bringing back a DC, coaches who tend to move around a lot, in comparison to a HC. You're getting closer, I suppose. Let's accept that premise and go with it, it's not unreasonable.

Shanahan was mostly bad in D.C. but that will be explained away. Shanahan ended his tenure in Denver poorly. The response is now that we would just limit him to coaching. Great - except his late season collapses happened under his watch.

Kubiak was running the Shanahan offense here. It wasn't effective. Now we had shitty QB's to be sure, but the scheme wasn't blowing anyone away.

If people want to wave it all away, sure. But let's go off of what the rest of the situation was, not just the highlights.

[aberdien]

People don't generally win the lottery once, so what is your point? Ted Marchibroda went back to the Colts and took that Captain Comeback led team to the AFCCG, and a whisker away from the SB. And I don't think too many people would rate Marchibroda over Shanahan.
1. It's hard enough to win the lottery once and we did. Twice seems like we're pushing our luck too much.

2. So...he didn't take them to the SB did he? If winning the SB is the end goal, and the likelihood of achieving that goal through these nostalgic means is even slimmer than usual, then why settle for that?

I would be fine with a retread while acknowledging we would be successful but probably not win a SB. But at some point you're gonna have to move on and find the next SB winner.

[Poet]

Denver became cutting edge by hiring Shanahan as a youngish head coach that was brilliant. Rehiring Shanhan, ironically, is antithetical to that.

[Tbolt]

I think it's pretty clear bringing back a DC, coaches who tend to move around a lot, in comparison to a HC. You're getting closer, I suppose. Let's accept that premise and go with it, it's not unreasonable.

Shanahan was mostly bad in D.C. but that will be explained away. Shanahan ended his tenure in Denver poorly. The response is now that we would just limit him to coaching. Great - except his late season collapses happened under his watch.

Kubiak was running the Shanahan offense here. It wasn't effective. Now we had shitty QB's to be sure, but the scheme wasn't blowing anyone away.

If people want to wave it all away, sure. But let's go off of what the rest of the situation was, not just the highlights.

I maintain that Shanahan was fired one year before he had the team rebuilt. He went with the we reload, don't rebuild mantra. Lost a HoF QB, HoF RB, and had got a little bit lost in the wilderness. They were still competitive just about every season, and a threat. So what exactly are the lowlights you are referring to? Taking Jake I don't want to practice Plummer to the AFCCG? Going 8-8 with Smoking Jay Cutler and no Defense?

The problem with Shanahan, was that he would win games with bad talent, thus masking his GM shortcomings. Of which he seemed to have gotten better at towards the end. Sort of like last years draft seems like a 180. We were in the perfect position to address the D that offseason when he was fired, the Offense was built, then McD happened.

So, VJ has two straight years of 'late season collapses' I guess that is moving forward.

[Tbolt]

1. It's hard enough to win the lottery once and we did. Twice seems like we're pushing our luck too much.

2. So...he didn't take them to the SB did he? If winning the SB is the end goal, and the likelihood of achieving that goal through these nostalgic means is even slimmer than usual, then why settle for that?

I would be fine with a retread while acknowledging we would be successful but probably not win a SB. But at some point you're gonna have to move on and find the next SB winner.

The 90's Colts were awful. That season was pretty far fetched, and had fairy tale written all over it. But sometimes a team just needs a steady hand, which is why John Fox worked for awhile here.

[aberdien]

The 90's Colts were awful. That season was pretty far fetched, and had fairy tale written all over it. But sometimes a team just needs a steady hand, which is why John Fox worked for awhile here.

And that's what i'm saying. Shanny will probably be a steady hand, but I don't think he'll return us to the promised land. If we want short term stability and playoffs, i'm fine with it. If we want a SB, we'll have to move on eventually IMO.

[Poet]

I maintain that Shanahan was fired one year before he had the team rebuilt. He went with the we reload, don't rebuild mantra. Lost a HoF QB, HoF RB, and had got a little bit lost in the wilderness. They were still competitive just about every season, and a threat. So what exactly are the lowlights you are referring to? Taking Jake I don't want to practice Plummer to the AFCCG? Going 8-8 with Smoking Jay Cutler and no Defense?

The problem with Shanahan, was that he would win games with bad talent, thus masking his GM shortcomings. Of which he seemed to have gotten better at towards the end. Sort of like last years draft seems like a 180. We were in the perfect position to address the D that offseason when he was fired, the Offense was built, then McD happened.

So, VJ has two straight years of 'late season collapses' I guess that is moving forward.

The team had leads at the ends of game and several game leads in the standings and collapsed.

The lowlights would be the collapses and his refusal to fire Slowik.

You move forward - you keep going forward, not backwards. So if VJ flames out, as he has, you move forward from him.

Being obtuse isn't substantive argument, fwiw.

[Tbolt]

And that's what i'm saying. Shanny will probably be a steady hand, but I don't think he'll return us to the promised land. If we want short term stability and playoffs, i'm fine with it. If we want a SB, we'll have to move on eventually IMO.

Then the smart hire would have been Kyle. Why we have VJ coaching this team I will never understand. Actually, I wanted Kyle/Wade. Got neither. Still hoped for the best, doesn't work.

It is incredibly hard to go to, let alone win a SB. Some longtime Franchises have never been, or never won. I don't think there is some magic formula for finding 'the guy to catch lightning'. Bellichek sucked as a coach once upon a time. Now he is probably up there with Lombardi.

If Shanahan has the desire to do it, I have no doubt he is capable of leading a team to another Championship. Sometimes the stars just have to align, like they did in gag New England. Finding a coach is a whole lot easier than finding a QB though. We don't have one. Which combined with a lousy coaching staff was never going to get us to a winning season.

[Tbolt]

The team had leads at the ends of game and several game leads in the standings and collapsed.

The lowlights would be the collapses and his refusal to fire Slowik.

You move forward - you keep going forward, not backwards. So if VJ flames out, as he has, you move forward from him.

Being obtuse isn't substantive argument, fwiw.

JFC, stop with this moving forward nonsense. It means nothing but sounds nice on a post it, I guess. Anything they do, even firing VJ and hiring Dan Reeves would be moving forward, because, you see, it would happen in the future, so it is actually impossible for them to move backwards, no matter who they hire. Any games coached by said person, will, in fact, be in the future.

[Poet]

I mean, it literally means you keep going forward and not backwards, and the rehire of the person in question is going backwards. Yeah man, an ancient Reeves would definitely work out.

If you want to be obtuse, and a jerk for the sake of it, go ahead. Rehiring Shanahan is actually the opposite of the success mentality we used when we hired him.

Oh, if you think I'm being cryptic, let me be blunt: hiring retreads isn't being innovative. Shanahan WAS innovative. It was bold to hire him. Now you're essentially admitting you have no fresh ideas, and are hoping against hope there's magic left in the guy.

[Simple Jaded]

Not that I want Shanatan back but Joe Bush needs to stay in his ******* lane, he’s here to run shit into the ground ... that’s what they do best. Let the football people do the football shit.

[Cugel]

The reason to hire Shanahan is simple:

If you think this team is basically a playoff team (but not a SB team) but they are underachieving because VJ is such a bad and inexperienced coach, then Shanahan will come in and coach them up and get them to the playoffs.

If you think the team is basically bad, with bad coaching on top, then Shanahan will come in and rebuild, he brings stability and credibility. The players will respect him, he has the locker-room, players always loved playing for Mike. He even managed to get something useful out of Jay Cutler! In fact I maintain that if Shanahan had stayed, Cutler would have continued to develop - not into a SB star, but at least better than what his career became after he left Denver.

Nobody sensible ever doubted he could coach. He was undone by his idiot drafting and player personnel moves that backfired (like Daryl Gardner and Dale Carter). And all he'd be doing here is coaching. Elway is not giving up control over draft and FA acquisitions.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

We could have had Cousins. Good grief.

[aberdien]

We could have had Cousins. Good grief.

We live in a cruel world.

[aberdien]

Then the smart hire would have been Kyle. Why we have VJ coaching this team I will never understand. Actually, I wanted Kyle/Wade. Got neither. Still hoped for the best, doesn't work.

It is incredibly hard to go to, let alone win a SB. Some longtime Franchises have never been, or never won. I don't think there is some magic formula for finding 'the guy to catch lightning'. Bellichek sucked as a coach once upon a time. Now he is probably up there with Lombardi.

If Shanahan has the desire to do it, I have no doubt he is capable of leading a team to another Championship. Sometimes the stars just have to align, like they did in gag New England. Finding a coach is a whole lot easier than finding a QB though. We don't have one. Which combined with a lousy coaching staff was never going to get us to a winning season.

Yeah, if we were talking about Shanny Jr. here I would be jizzing my pants. Picking VJ over him was such a colossal mistake.

Like I said, I think Shanny will find success if he comes here, but I don't think it will be SB success. I would be fine and somewhat excited about the hire, but wary considering how unlikely he is to repeat the successes of the past. If the FO wants to go get an old vet i'm down with Shanny.

[BeefStew25]

We could have had Cousins. Good grief.

He hasn’t impressed this year.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

He hasn’t impressed this year.

He’s been better than Keenum.

[Poet]

He hasn’t impressed this year.

He's performed very well. His production is strong. He's not riding coattails.

[FanInAZ]

He's performed very well. His production is strong. He's not riding coattails.

Your use of MO's old avatar is confusing me. As soon as I see it, I expect to read stuff that I'd expect from him, but you're definitely not MO.

[Poet]

Your use of MO's old avatar is confusing me. As soon as I see it, I expect to read stuff that I'd expect from him, but you're definitely not MO.

This is in tribute to Mo.

[Elevation inc]

I'm not surprised by this at all. Ellis is and has always been a rat, I have always felt it was his call to get rid of Shanny after they wanted to fire Slowik who was great friends with Shanny and he refused spurning Ellis in the process. This reeks of a personnel vendetta from Ellis still to this day.

[MOtorboat]

Nostalgia doesn’t win games.

[BeefStew25]

He’s been better than Keenum.

Not 84 million guaranteed better. Not even close.

[Northman]

He’s been better than Keenum.

And its not even close.

[TXBRONC]

He’s been better than Keenum.

That's true, but Cousins was signed with the thought of being the last piece to a Super Bowl run on team that made the playoffs just one year ago.

That aside, Denver might still be in the thick things right now if Cousins had been our starting quarterback.

[Northman]

That's true, but Cousins was signed with the thought of being the last piece to a Super Bowl run on team that made the playoffs just one year ago.

That aside, Denver might still be in the thick things right now if Cousins had been our starting quarterback.

The Vikings were also assuming the other parts of the team would be the same as well and they havent been.

[Northman]

I should also add that the Vikings are not out of the playoff race just yet. They could very well make a strong push come playoff time despite their issues earlier in the year.

[BroncoJoe]

The Vikings were also assuming the other parts of the team would be the same as well and they havent been.

Sounds vaguely familiar...

[Northman]

Sounds vaguely familiar...

To who? Denver? Denver this year is actually better than they were last year in terms of the surrounding team.

[Poet]

Imagine Keemun on the Vikings again. Now imagine that top five pick and four wins he’d have them at.

[BroncoJoe]

To who? Denver? Denver this year is actually better than they were last year in terms of the surrounding team.

How so?

[BroncoJoe]

Imagine Keemun on the Vikings again. Now imagine that top five pick and four wins he’d have them at.

You don't know this as fact.

[TXBRONC]

The Vikings were also assuming the other parts of the team would be the same as well and they havent been.

I'm just saying that is/was the expectation and they may or may not get there.

But as I also mention if Cousins were in Denver now we might still be in playoff contention. If he had been here Denver probably doesn't lose to the Chiefs twice.

[BroncoWave]

How so?

Well we have a better record than last year despite having played the toughest schedule in the league. The coaching isn't better, the QB play is maybe slightly better (but that's even debatable), so all you really have left is better surrounding talent. We didn't have a playmaker out of the backfield like Lindsey last year.

[Northman]

How so?

In 2017 the Denver Oline was ranked 29th. This year they are ranked 13th.

In 2017 the Denver Broncos defense was ranked 30th, this year they are ranked 8th.

[BroncoJoe]

Well we have a better record than last year despite having played the toughest schedule in the league. The coaching isn't better, the QB play is maybe slightly better (but that's even debatable), so all you really have left is better surrounding talent. We didn't have a playmaker out of the backfield like Lindsey last year.

Granted.

I don't follow the Vikings closely, but what changed with them? Did they lose a bunch of players to free agency or something? Injuries? Trades?

The same stuff has happened to the Broncos.

[BroncoJoe]

In 2017 the Denver Oline was ranked 29th. This year they are ranked 13th.

In 2017 the Denver Broncos defense was ranked 30th, this year they are ranked 8th.

I don't know about the OL - don't know how to look up those rankings.

Defense is easy though. According to nfl.com, the Broncos are ranked 25th on defense, and MN 4th.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/netTotalYards/position/defense

Points/game is negligible. Broncos have allowed 299, Vikings 308.

[Northman]

I don't know about the OL - don't know how to look up those rankings.

Defense is easy though. According to nfl.com, the Broncos are ranked 25th on defense.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/netTotalYards/position/defense


http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&season=2018&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go

[Northman]

I don't know about the OL - don't know how to look up those rankings.

Defense is easy though. According to nfl.com, the Broncos are ranked 25th on defense.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/netTotalYards/position/defense

The stat you are posting from ESPN is for yards allowed only. It doesnt take in how stingy Denver has been with points scored against them. For instance, the Broncos gave up a lot of yds to Pittsburgh but did a good job of keeping them out of the endzone.

[BroncoJoe]

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=OPP&offensiveStatisticCategory=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&season=2018&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go

I think you have that sorted wrong.

[BroncoJoe]

The stat you are posting from ESPN is for yards allowed only. It doesnt take in how stingy Denver has been with points scored against them. For instance, the Broncos gave up a lot of yds to Pittsburgh but did a good job of keeping them out of the endzone.

I edited that post to reflect points allowed.

Broncos 299
Vikings 308

9 points is completely irrelevant over 14 games.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

On Sunday night, Woody Paige dropped a bombshell with his report on how John Elway nearly tried to hire Mike Shanahan to replace Vance Joseph last winter.

According to the report, Elway was interested in bringing back his former head coach to return to the same role, but Denver Broncos team President Joe Ellis wanted the organization to conduct a thorough review of multiple candidates if they were going to make a change. In the end, Elway decided to bring back Joseph for a second season, which has left much of the Broncos’ fanbase feeling confused.

On Monday afternoon, Les Shapiro of Mile High Sports FM 104.7 | AM 1340, explained that the complicated relationship between Elway, Ellis and Shanahan actually dates back nearly two decades.

Following an illustrious 16-year playing career, Elway wanted to join the organization in a business role and begin learning more about the functions of the team’s salary cap in 2000. Ellis, who was in charge of the team’s new stadium at the time, felt like Elway was intruding on some of his responsibilities and was reluctant to bring him on staff.

rest - https://milehighsports.com/how-mike-shanahan-and-john-elway-agreed-on-a-deal-before-joe-ellis-vetoed-the-decision/

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I’m confident we’d make the playoffs this year if we had Shanny and Cousins. That would be a better situation than we’re currently in. That would be more than enough of a reason to me.

[Northman]

I’m confident we’d make the playoffs this year if we had Shanny and Cousins. That would be a better situation than we’re currently in. That would be more than enough of a reason to me.

Agreed.

[Poet]

The fact Elway wants to go back in time so much kind of scares me.

[Slick]

Cousin’s Vikings haven’t beatenna team with a winning record all season. I like him better than Keenum but that’s not saying much.

[GEM]

**** Ellis. Tired of his schtick.

[GEM]

So much for Ellis job to do what's best for the Broncos. He's acting in the best interests of his own personal vendettas. Perhaps there is reasoning behind Pat's brother suing the trust for not looking out for the best of the franchise. Outside of the fight between the kids. Also, he's not looking out for the best for the Broncos if he thinks the NFL will hold out 11 years until Brittany hits 40. He knows That if Beth takes over, He's gone. Once again looking out for his own interests, not the franchise.

[Poet]

So much for Ellis job to do what's best for the Broncos. He's acting in the best interests of his own personal vendettas. Perhaps there is reasoning behind Pat's brother suing the trust for not looking out for the best of the franchise. Outside of the fight between the kids. Also, he's not looking out for the best for the Broncos if he thinks the NFL will hold out 11 years until Brittany hits 40. He knows That if Beth takes over, He's gone. Once again looking out for his own interests, not the franchise.

Hey GEM, at lot of this is before my time. So, I just want to ask a question. Is it possible, in your opinion, that Ellis blocked the hire because he thought it was a bad move to go back to Shanahan? Is it possible that this is the right logical decision? If yes to either of those questions, do you think it is possible, also, that Ellis also blocked the hire for selfish reasons, too?

[Tbolt]

Hey GEM, at lot of this is before my time. So, I just want to ask a question. Is it possible, in your opinion, that Ellis blocked the hire because he thought it was a bad move to go back to Shanahan? Is it possible that this is the right logical decision? If yes to either of those questions, do you think it is possible, also, that Ellis also blocked the hire for selfish reasons, too?

How about the fact Ellis blocked Elway getting hired two decades ago because he felt threatened. Or is all that immaterial to you? He hired McD to be his puppet.

[GEM]

Hey GEM, at lot of this is before my time. So, I just want to ask a question. Is it possible, in your opinion, that Ellis blocked the hire because he thought it was a bad move to go back to Shanahan? Is it possible that this is the right logical decision? If yes to either of those questions, do you think it is possible, also, that Ellis also blocked the hire for selfish reasons, too?

I think there is some bad blood with Ellis who was Bowlen's right hand guy during those years that is far outweighing any coaching hire he'd be able to make. No one wants to come here. The qb sucks balls, there's no real qb of the future even on the roster, we're picking too low to do any real damage and shit prospects on the horizon. On top of it, the coaching choices on the market now are has beens and we've had shit luck with young up and comers which will make Elway a bit more gun shy to go there again. So I'd rather have the has been that we know can do things and at least bring some stability back. I think if we could get Kubes back at OC, we could manage at least putting a winning season together until we have a qb prospect.

I also think Ellis a power hungry schmuck who is looking out for his own best interests.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

from an article, which is very interesting -


According to multiple NFL sources, the three trustees sent Bowlen’s children and wife Annabel a lengthy blueprint in February 2015 that included a list of requisites, in addition to a shortlist of responsibilities, for whomever will be the next controlling owner. The trustees informed Bowlen’s family that the bulleted items did not constitute a checklist and, if met, would not guarantee one would become controlling owner/CEO. The trustees would retain control, and any change in that structure would be at their discretion and require the approval of the league and 31 other NFL team owners.

That list includes multiple subjective items, such as leadership and integrity and sound judgment. But it also includes more specific requirements, such as bachelor’s degree, paired with an MBA, J.D. or other advanced business-related degree. It also mandates at least five years of senior management experience with the league, team or Stadium Management Company, the group that operates the Broncos’ soon-to-be-renamed stadium. It does not, however, specify which job titles are considered senior management.


rest, I did not see anything about needing to be at least 40 before taking over the team. Wonder if that is what Ellis wants, rather than what Mr. B stated?

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/01/12/broncos-trustees-criteria-select-pat-bowlen-controlling-owner/

[Tbolt]

This team has the potential to really implode, all because of Joe Ellis. What happens if Elway walks away or gets fired. We want Joe 'I think McDaniels is a good idea' Ellis making all the football decisions? He has stolen an NFL franchise.

[Poet]

I think there is some bad blood with Ellis who was Bowlen's right hand guy during those years that is far outweighing any coaching hire he'd be able to make. No one wants to come here. The qb sucks balls, there's no real qb of the future even on the roster, we're picking too low to do any real damage and shit prospects on the horizon. On top of it, the coaching choices on the market now are has beens and we've had shit luck with young up and comers which will make Elway a bit more gun shy to go there again. So I'd rather have the has been that we know can do things and at least bring some stability back. I think if we could get Kubes back at OC, we could manage at least putting a winning season together until we have a qb prospect.

I also think Ellis a power hungry schmuck who is looking out for his own best interests.

Thank you GEM. I appreciate it.

[Cugel]

I mean, it literally means you keep going forward and not backwards, and the rehire of the person in question is going backwards. Yeah man, an ancient Reeves would definitely work out.

If you want to be obtuse, and a jerk for the sake of it, go ahead. Rehiring Shanahan is actually the opposite of the success mentality we used when we hired him.

Oh, if you think I'm being cryptic, let me be blunt: hiring retreads isn't being innovative. Shanahan WAS innovative. It was bold to hire him. Now you're essentially admitting you have no fresh ideas, and are hoping against hope there's magic left in the guy.

This is complete B.S. :coffee:

The Broncos desperately need an EXPERIENCED coach. You are decidedly in the minority not wanting him!


"I understand how good of a coach Mike is, and how demanding Mike is. We talk about how important it is for the coach to command the room, and there's one guy I KNOW will command the room and that's Mike Shanahan. . . .I think it would be different this time, because Mike would be focused on coaching [not being GM and running the entire organization] -- Mark Schlereth

[GEM]

Thank you GEM. I appreciate it.

Dammit with the ewok avy, that was mo's avy for awhile. :laugh:

[Poet]

This is complete B.S. :coffee:

The Broncos desperately need an EXPERIENCED coach. You are decidedly in the minority not wanting him!

So one, it was a hypothetical...

Two...who cares if someone is in the minority, that has nothing to do with being correct. The majority of the board convinced themselves that Keenum was going to be a real asset for us.

See how that works? Appealing to majority opinion isn't a great way to make a substantive argument.

Three, the Broncos desperately need a GOOD coach.

Four, Shanahan's last year coaching he didn't look good. Cue up all the excuses you want for him. :coffee:

[Poet]

Dammit with the ewok avy, that was mo's avy for awhile. :laugh:

I do this in tribute to Mo. I have deemed him to be the greatest poster of all time.

[Tbolt]

So one, it was a hypothetical...

Two...who cares if someone is in the minority, that has nothing to do with being correct. The majority of the board convinced themselves that Keenum was going to be a real asset for us.

See how that works? Appealing to majority opinion isn't a great way to make a substantive argument.

Three, the Broncos desperately need a GOOD coach.

Four, Shanahan's last year coaching he didn't look good. Cue up all the excuses you want for him. :coffee:

Keenum could be an asset. Our offense is completely wrong for what he is capable of. I watched most of his starts in Minny last year and they did alot of moving pocket stuff with him. He was pretty decent in that role. They have never figured out how to play to anyone's strengths or away from weaknesses. Baffling.

ETA: Before we hired them, John Fox/Gary Kubiaks last years coaching looked pretty bad too. Both took us to SB's and 1 Championship.

[TXBRONC]

So one, it was a hypothetical...

Two...who cares if someone is in the minority, that has nothing to do with being correct. The majority of the board convinced themselves that Keenum was going to be a real asset for us.

See how that works? Appealing to majority opinion isn't a great way to make a substantive argument.

Three, the Broncos desperately need a GOOD coach.

Four, Shanahan's last year coaching he didn't look good. Cue up all the excuses you want for him. :coffee:

No, people were willing to give Keenum a chance but that's same being convinced with no reservations. I can only think of one person for sure that was making that kind of an argument and that poster hasn't been here since the start of the season.

[Nomad]

Dammit with the ewok avy, that was mo's avy for awhile. :laugh:


I do this in tribute to Mo. I have deemed him to be the greatest poster of all time.

The Ewok was a little confusing. It’s a nice gesture, King. Don’t let MO down.

[Poet]

No, people were willing to give Keenum a chance but that's same being convinced with no reservations. I can only think of one person for sure that was making that kind of an argument and that poster hasn't been here since the start of the season.

Oh buddy, that one poster might have been the ringleader, but there was plenty of love for it.

You can't correct me on this. It was a joyous summer for me being one of like two people skeptical of the guy and being blasted for it.

[Poet]

This is complete B.S. :coffee:

The Broncos desperately need an EXPERIENCED coach. You are decidedly in the minority not wanting him!

Jaded, you hi-fived this drivel?

Boy you're catching these hands.

[Simple Jaded]

rest - https://milehighsports.com/how-mike-shanahan-and-john-elway-agreed-on-a-deal-before-joe-ellis-vetoed-the-decision/

I am a POS.

[Simple Jaded]

Jaded, you hi-fived this drivel?

Boy you're catching these hands.

I think they need an experienced/established leader with pelts on the wall.

[MOtorboat]

I think they need an experienced/established leader with pelts on the wall.

Wilt Chamberlain is dead.

[Simple Jaded]

Btw, I float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.

#SoPretty

[Simple Jaded]

Wilt Chamberlain is dead.

I’m cool either way, even with a bullshit college offense ... that’s what VJ has done to me.

The struggle is real MO.

[Poet]

I think they need an experienced/established leader with pelts on the wall.

You think too small, Jaded. This is the same basic logic of taking CK and not drafting a young stallion at QB. Don't be scared to fail - hedging your bets and not being totally in it is how you're more likely to fail .

And good lord, Shanahan's last season in the NFL he was 3-13. Before that he had one ten year win in Washington, was preceded by 5 and 6 win seasons.

His last two seasons in Denver were late season collapses and mediocrity capped off by refusing to fire Slowick.

The shining moment in that cluster**** was the young stud QB that Shanahan hated, but needed to make the postseason. Shanahan, then, in my opinion, ran the young man into the ground.

I do not want this return to the glory days.

It's an uninspired move. When Denver hired Shanahan he wasn't great in Oakland but they believed in the talent of the man and looked at the surrounding circumstances. That was inspired.

Hiring an old man based on glory more than a decade ago...

Two thumbs down. Regardless of whether or not Ellis did this out of selfish reasons...I'm glad he blocked it.

[Simple Jaded]

You think too small, Jaded. This is the same basic logic of taking CK and not drafting a young stallion at QB. Don't be scared to fail - hedging your bets and not being totally in it is how you're more likely to fail .

And good lord, Shanahan's last season in the NFL he was 3-13. Before that he had one ten year win in Washington, was preceded by 5 and 6 win seasons.

His last two seasons in Denver were late season collapses and mediocrity capped off by refusing to fire Slowick.

The shining moment in that cluster**** was the young stud QB that Shanahan hated, but needed to make the postseason. Shanahan, then, in my opinion, ran the young man into the ground.

I do not want this return to the glory days.

It's an uninspired move. When Denver hired Shanahan he wasn't great in Oakland but they believed in the talent of the man and looked at the surrounding circumstances. That was inspired.

Hiring an old man based on glory more than a decade ago...

Two thumbs down. Regardless of whether or not Ellis did this out of selfish reasons...I'm glad he blocked it.
I stopped reading at “You think too small...”

How dare you?!

#I’mNoHypeMan

[Poet]

I stopped reading at “You think too small...”

How dare you?!

#I’mNoHypeMan

I've never read one of your posts and just guessed as to what you were talking about and what response you would enjoy.

I'm guessing this post of yours is a pile of shit. :D

[Simple Jaded]

You hurt me.

This is agony.

[Poet]

You hurt me.

This is agony.

I hit you with the style driver.

You broke my heart.

[Simple Jaded]

I hit you with the style driver.

You broke my heart.

You forsake me.

[TXBRONC]

Oh buddy, that one poster might have been the ringleader, but there was plenty of love for it.

You can't correct me on this. It was a joyous summer for me being one of like two people skeptical of the guy and being blasted for it.

There may have been more the one person I'm thinking, I sure can't recall anyone else saying Keenum will be next best thing since Jaded broke through the womb.

[Poet]

There may have been more the one person I'm thinking, I sure can't recall anyone else saying Keenum will be next best thing since Jaded broke through the womb.

There were a lot of people who were happy. Few were...as...ecstatic...Many were optimistic to varying degrees. People liked it.

People also liked cocaine...wait...no...they still do...eh. ;)

[Simple Jaded]

The more people talked about hating the signing the more people started liking the signing out of spite.

Keenum should be thanking Kinger for hating the signing.

[Poet]

The more people talked about hating the signing the more people started liking the signing out of spite.

Keenum should be thanking Kinger for hating the signing.

Yeah, you bring up the fact that his numbers weren't actually elite, or that he's flamed out everywhere he's been, or that...you get the point. You do that and people just get all cranky.

All I did was give fair warning. I did it out of love. And they hated me for it.

[Tbolt]

Yeah, you bring up the fact that his numbers weren't actually elite, or that he's flamed out everywhere he's been, or that...you get the point. You do that and people just get all cranky.

All I did was give fair warning. I did it out of love. And they hated me for it.

He's serviceable in the way that Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer or Jon Kitna were serviceable. You can win with that type of QB, but you have to have everything else in place around them. A coach like VJ is the wrong guy to do that with, he has to be carried to wins. Honestly, the best way to salvage the Case Keenum experience is to bring in someone like Shanahan, and an OC that is not in over his head.

That said, I thought he would be better. He stretched the field better last year, and seemed to make better reads. Of course they also got him out into space, which we don't seem to want to do. Their OL was worse than ours this year. He's not the biggest guy, neither was Plummer. He needed to be moved around alot too to open up throwing lanes, and, be able to see the field. But hey, why fix what aint broke. amiright?

[Poet]

He's serviceable in the way that Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer or Jon Kitna were serviceable. You can win with that type of QB, but you have to have everything else in place around them. A coach like VJ is the wrong guy to do that with, he has to be carried to wins. Honestly, the best way to salvage the Case Keenum experience is to bring in someone like Shanahan, and an OC that is not in over his head.

That said, I thought he would be better. He stretched the field better last year, and seemed to make better reads. Of course they also got him out into space, which we don't seem to want to do. Their OL was worse than ours this year. He's not the biggest guy, neither was Plummer. He needed to be moved around alot too to open up throwing lanes, and, be able to see the field. But hey, why fix what aint broke. amiright?

I mean...good luck winning with those guys right now. And Kitna was a train wreck and would just turnover implode. Trust me, in another football life I saw plenty of Kitna.

There is no need to try to salvage Keenum. He is a resource dump. He is the equivalent of the old vehicle the owner pour money into when it's clear to everyone else the vehicle is dead.

He sucks. He's an awful deep ball thrower and the stats bear that out. Moreover, last year advanced stats show how awful he was at that type of passing. He was bailed out by his great WRs.

Every time he steps onto the field I just look at him and wonder why Gary Kubiak is so opposed to talented QBs.

[Tbolt]

I mean...good luck winning with those guys right now. And Kitna was a train wreck and would just turnover implode. Trust me, in another football life I saw plenty of Kitna.

There is no need to try to salvage Keenum. He is a resource dump. He is the equivalent of the old vehicle the owner pour money into when it's clear to everyone else the vehicle is dead.

He sucks. He's an awful deep ball thrower and the stats bear that out. Moreover, last year advanced stats show how awful he was at that type of passing. He was bailed out by his great WRs.

Every time he steps onto the field I just look at him and wonder why Gary Kubiak is so opposed to talented QBs.

The better question is, Why is Joe Ellis?

Who else were they supposed to trot out this year? Rosen is Awful, and then you have Allen. Those were the options. Though maybe they should have made a move for Bridgewater. They were trying to compete, and brought in a mid tier guy. They thought he might be high mid tier when really, his ceiling is low mid tier. But this coaching staff is clueless on what to do with him, as they think he has this canon arm with Manning like instincts.

I'm not defending Keenum. He makes me yawn. Just saying a better staff could get more out of him.

[Poet]

The better question is, Why is Joe Ellis?

Who else were they supposed to trot out this year? Rosen is Awful, and then you have Allen. Those were the options. Though maybe they should have made a move for Bridgewater. They were trying to compete, and brought in a mid tier guy. They thought he might be high mid tier when really, his ceiling is low mid tier. But this coaching staff is clueless on what to do with him, as they think he has this canon arm with Manning like instincts.

I'm not defending Keenum. He makes me yawn. Just saying a better staff could get more out of him.

John Elway and Troy Aikman were completely awful when they stepped onto the field. We can find a lot of people like that. Rosen has lost all five starters on the OL. David Johnson has done nothing this year because he's the main threat, and Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR they have. What should we be expecting out of a rookie in that situation?

Who else should they have trotted out is a question for the GM. Keenum wasn't the answer. He was a waste of space and we just wasted a year 'contending' with him.

A better staff could get him to 20 TDs, 10 INTs, and he'd still be one of the worst QB's in the league. Lord knows how much I hate Keenum. He represents everything in life I loathe.

[Cugel]

from an article, which is very interesting -



rest, I did not see anything about needing to be at least 40 before taking over the team. Wonder if that is what Ellis wants, rather than what Mr. B stated?

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/01/12/broncos-trustees-criteria-select-pat-bowlen-controlling-owner/

Someone in a thread on this board posted a link to the story. Apparently it's a requirement of the Bowlen Family Trust Agreement. Of course, I don't know who's seen that AGreement.

But, as a Trusts and Estates lawyer I can tell you that such provisions are pretty standard as a way to prevent children squandering their inheritance because they are given too much $ at age 18. Routinely in Wills, there is a "spendthrift provision" holding the estate in trust for the children until they reach the age of 25 or 30, even 35 in some cases. I've never seen 40 used but we're talking about becoming the CEO of a $2.5BILLION franchise.

So, Pat could well have decided that none of his children should inherit control over the team until they reach 40. Now that is a problem because Ellis doesn't want Beth Bowlen to inherit for some reason, and Brittany is 28, so Ellis would have to be effective owner for another 12 years if the 40 yrs. requirement is locked into the Trust Agreement. Perhaps they could petition the Probate Court to amend it, but who knows except those Trust lawyers who've looked at the Agreement. Not me.

[Cugel]

On Friday, Dec. 29, 2017, two days before Denver was scheduled to host Cincinnati in Week 17, Elway and Shanahan met at John’s residence to discuss the potential of him returning as head coach. By the end of the meeting, Elway offered M. Shanahan a three-year contract and the two agreed on a deal, even though Mike doubted Ellis would approve. He was correct as Ellis said absolutely not and vetoed the decision to bring back the legendary head coach.

“It was a done deal but Ellis put the kibosh on it,” Shapiro said.

Had Ellis not rejected Elway’s plan to bring back M. Shanahan, the Broncos may not have just had a different coach. According to Shapiro, Kirk Cousins still frequently talks with the coach that drafted him in Washington and was willing on signing in Denver on a significant discount if M. Shanahan was hired.

So, instead of Mike Shanahan coaching and Kirk Cousins playing QB we got Vance Joseph and Case Keenum! Awesome. Thanks a LOT Ellis you *******! :coffee:

[BroncoJoe]

Someone in a thread on this board posted a link to the story. Apparently it's a requirement of the Bowlen Family Trust Agreement. Of course, I don't know who's seen that AGreement.

But, as a Trusts and Estates lawyer I can tell you that such provisions are pretty standard as a way to prevent children squandering their inheritance because they are given too much $ at age 18. Routinely in Wills, there is a "spendthrift provision" holding the estate in trust for the children until they reach the age of 25 or 30, even 35 in some cases. I've never seen 40 used but we're talking about becoming the CEO of a $2.5BILLION franchise.

So, Pat could well have decided that none of his children should inherit control over the team until they reach 40. Now that is a problem because Ellis doesn't want Beth Bowlen to inherit for some reason, and Brittany is 28, so Ellis would have to be effective owner for another 12 years if the 40 yrs. requirement is locked into the Trust Agreement. Perhaps they could petition the Probate Court to amend it, but who knows except those Trust lawyers who've looked at the Agreement. Not me.

Long story short, I don't know for sure.

[Poet]

So, instead of Mike Shanahan coaching and Kirk Cousins playing QB we got Vance Joseph and Case Keenum! Awesome. Thanks a LOT Ellis you *******! :coffee:

You were a proponent of a coach who bombed out in Washington with three wins, who also ended his tenure here poorly regarding both record and refusal to fire the DC of one of the worst defenses ever?

I thought you did not want us to sign Cousins, either? Or is it now this hypothetical fusion between Shanahan and Cousins, and maybe Cousins taking a few million less to do so?

[Cugel]

The worst thing about this is that we're stuck with Case Keenum for next year too. He's got a $10m cap hit if they release him, and obviously they intend to draft their future QB next April. But, they need a veteran starter until the rookie is ready, and there'd be no point in bringing in someone like a Joe Flacco who would cost them about the same as Keenum - minimum - and then pay Keenum $10 to go away. So, $30m for a Qb who is probably worth about $12m?

Better to keep Keenum and hope the rookie develops quickly. But, next season is already not looking great. They are losing a bunch of veterans like Roby, Pecko, Ron Leary, Heuerman and Jared Veldheer, Shane Ray and Brandon Marshall - most of them as UFAs.

The next coach is going to shake up this roster from top to bottom. It would just be a lot better for us if that coach was Mike Shanahan and not someone like Wink Martindale (I swear I heard someone talking about him as a coaching candidate)!

Apparently there is "what's below zero? Absolute zero? - Mark Schlereth" chance that the Ravens are going to fire John Harbaugh. Outside him the veteran coach pickings are pretty slim. And there's not even any hot coordinators people are pointing to this year as inevitable head coaches.

[BroncoJoe]

The worst thing about this is that we're stuck with Case Keenum for next year too. He's got a $10m cap hit if they release him, and obviously they intend to draft their future QB next April. But, they need a veteran starter until the rookie is ready, and there'd be no point in bringing in someone like a Joe Flacco who would cost them about the same as Keenum - minimum - and then pay Keenum $10 to go away. So, $30m for a Qb who is probably worth about $12m?

Better to keep Keenum and hope the rookie develops quickly. But, next season is already not looking great. They are losing a bunch of veterans like Roby, Pecko, Ron Leary, Heuerman and Jared Veldheer, Shane Ray and Brandon Marshall - most of them as UFAs.

The next coach is going to shake up this roster from top to bottom. It would just be a lot better for us if that coach was Mike Shanahan and not someone like Wink Martindale (I swear I heard someone talking about him as a coaching candidate)!

Apparently there is "what's below zero? Absolute zero? - Mark Schlereth" chance that the Ravens are going to fire John Harbaugh. Outside him the veteran coach pickings are pretty slim. And there's not even any hot coordinators people are pointing to this year as inevitable head coaches.

$10M is better than $18M. If they want to cut him, they will.

The rest of your post is garbage and pure speculation. I love how you cover all bases while talking out both sides of your mouth.

[Cugel]

You were a proponent of a coach who bombed out in Washington with three wins, who also ended his tenure here poorly regarding both record and refusal to fire the DC of one of the worst defenses ever?

I thought you did not want us to sign Cousins, either? Or is it now this hypothetical fusion between Shanahan and Cousins, and maybe Cousins taking a few million less to do so?

First of all, Mike Shanahan was royally screwed in DC. He had RGIII as his QB because idiot owner Dan Snyder insisted on that. Mike wanted to get rid of RGIII and start Cousins. They fired him instead. Then they started RGIII, and he flamed out. Snyder held it against Cousins for showing him up as a rich idiot.

Second of all, I thought Keenum would do better than he did. He disappointed a lot of people, but I saw no reason why they should pay $28m for a QB if Keenum would do almost as well for $18m. Well, nobody thinks that was right now, do they? Are you accusing me of liking Case Keenum before the season? Guilty. So what? We are now where we are.

The Broncos would have been hugely better off with Shanahan and Cousins, not Keenum and VJ. DO you dispute that?

[Poet]

First of all, Mike Shanahan was royally screwed in DC. He had RGIII as his QB because idiot owner Dan Snyder insisted on that. Mike wanted to get rid of RGIII and start Cousins. They fired him instead. Then they started RGIII, and he flamed out. Snyder held it against Cousins for showing him up as a rich idiot.

Second of all, I thought Keenum would do better than he did. He disappointed a lot of people, but I saw no reason why they should pay $28m for a QB if Keenum would do almost as well for $18m. Well, nobody thinks that was right now, do they? Are you accusing me of liking Case Keenum before the season? Guilty. So what? We are now where we are.

The Broncos would have been hugely better off with Shanahan and Cousins, not Keenum and VJ. DO you dispute that?

He only made the playoffs with RG3, and not without him. I don't understand how people forget that wonderful year the two of them had. They were the talk of the NFL. RG3 was tearing it up. With Shanahan. We know what happened when RG3 got hurt. Everything went to shit.

I'd be more forgiving to Shanahan for Washington had he not ended his time in Denver so poorly.

[Cugel]

$10M is better than $18M. If they want to cut him, they will.

The rest of your post is garbage and pure speculation. I love how you cover all bases while talking out both sides of your mouth.

No. Do try and stop lip reading. It's $10M + $18-20m. That equals $28-$30m.

They will take a $10m hit + have to hire a new veteran at $20m or so. It could be slightly more or less depending on who they decide = but there aren't a lot of veteran QBs capable of starting out there.

[Cugel]

He only made the playoffs with RG3, and not without him. I don't understand how people forget that wonderful year the two of them had. They were the talk of the NFL. RG3 was tearing it up. With Shanahan. We know what happened when RG3 got hurt. Everything went to shit.

I'd be more forgiving to Shanahan for Washington had he not ended his time in Denver so poorly.

If you don't like Shanahan, fine. Just say so! But, who's the alternative? Eh? There's NO great head coaching prospects out there who are likely to come here.

RGIII tore up his knee, and decided he wanted to be a pure pocket passing QB. Only he sucked at that. He still sucks at that. He didn't improve any in recent years.

So, no Shanahan didn't take that crappy team to the playoffs again. He wanted Cousins. Snyder didn't.

[Poet]

If you're a blind homer for Shanahan, fine, say so.

You're a rude monster, Cugel. A true villain.

[Cugel]

Les Shapiro: "Cousins, who talks to Mike Shanahan all the time, was willing to come to Denver at a tremendous discount, at much less money than the Vikings are currently paying him. That's significant. Only that never happened either. Instead of having a QB Coaching combo of Shanahan and Cousins, they are stuck with Vance Joseph and Case Keenum. You can certainly make the case that those decisions [by Joe Ellis], ego driven decisions in every area of this saga, not decisions made for the betterment of the club, decisions made by ego, have cost the Broncos dearly. In fact, they probably set the team back, oh, I don't know, three to five years? The first two years of Vance Joseph, which have been terrible, plus another 2 to 3 years going forward because they now have to find another head coach and another QB since Case Keenum ain't getting it done either.

And that's only IF they get the right Qb.

And another thing, I've heard people over there (Dove Valley) that Joe Ellis and John Elway's relationship is less than ideal to put it mildly - considering Ellis hired Elway to make the football decisions, but when Elway wanted to hire Mike Shanahan, Ellis said "no."

Pretty much what Shapiro said. :coffee:

[Cugel]

If you're a blind homer for Shanahan, fine, say so.

You're a rude monster, Cugel. A true villain.

Why thank you King! I take that as a complement coming from you! :coffee:

[Poet]

Why thank you King! I take that as a complement coming from you! :coffee:

I think you meant compliment?

[Tbolt]

I think you meant compliment?

I would have thought you would tire of Cugel mopping the floor with you, but you seem to be a glutton for losing arguments. Do you aspire to be a public defender by chance?

[Poet]

I would have thought you would tire of Cugel mopping the floor with you, but you seem to be a glutton for losing arguments. Do you aspire to be a public defender by chance?

I mean, going "he had this QB and that's why he did poorly," is funny when he only did well with that....QB...and performed horribly without him.

My greatest fear is going before the jury - people are very illogical. For instance, see the argument I refer to above.

[Simple Jaded]

Lol at Cugel mopping the floor with anyone, most people don’t get far enough into a CuJoel post to even know if it is worth a shit.

[Poet]

Lol at Cugel mopping the floor with anyone, most people don’t get far enough into a CuJoel post to even know if it is worth a shit.

Cugel is my homie.

Even though he hates the King. ;)

[Simple Jaded]

Cugel is my homie.

Even though he hates the King. ;)

Oh I dig CuJoel, I just sayin.

[Poet]

Oh I dig CuJoel, I just sayin.

He gets a bad rap.

[Cugel]

Cugel is my homie.

Even though he hates the King. ;)

Sad to say King, I don't hate anyone. It's a character flaw, I admit. I should perhaps be upset with you for calling me a "monster" but who really cares?

I just say Mike Shanahan + Kirk Cousins is 1,000% better than Case Keenum + Vance Joseph. THat's not even a debate really.

You might think Mike flamed out at the end of his career in Denver, but there's no dispute that he's a good head coach, while Vance Joseph just isn't. I actually was fine with firing Mike because I thought the team in 2008 had plateaued. His last 3 years were 9-7,7-9, 8-8 (in some order).

Well, 8-8 would be a step UP for this team which was =5-11, followed by maybe 6-10, possibly 7-9 this year.

Since they are FIRING Vance at the end of the season, and since the only reason they would keep Keenum (if they even do, you could be right and they decide to eat the $10m cap hit), would be because there's nobody better among veteran FA QBs out there and they don't have a developmental QB ready to step in since Chad Kelly lost his flippin' mind and got arrested.

Joe Ellis royally screwed this team. Because even if Shanahan + Cousins wouldn't be the long term answer, it at least gets you an adequate starting QB and coaching combo and you can continue to develop the team instead of having to start all over again with a new coaching regime + QB.

NO way Mike Shanahan would kick a FG down 4 points against the Browns, no way he would have lost to the 49ers or the Jets. They'd probably be 9-5 right now and in the playoff hunt with Shanny and Cousins.

And even if it didn't work out long-term, well in 2 years time Mike retires again and you get a new coach and in the mean time you have a chance to draft and develop a QB for a couple of seasons without needing to start him before he's ready.

[The Glue Factory]

Les Shapiro: "Cousins, who talks to Mike Shanahan all the time, was willing to come to Denver at a tremendous discount, at much less money than the Vikings are currently paying him. That's significant. Only that never happened either. Instead of having a QB Coaching combo of Shanahan and Cousins, they are stuck with Vance Joseph and Case Keenum. You can certainly make the case that those decisions [by Joe Ellis], ego driven decisions in every area of this saga, not decisions made for the betterment of the club, decisions made by ego,
have cost the Broncos dearly.

And thus the lawsuit by Uncle Billy on behalf of Beth.

I was against Beth's ownership but now I'm conflicted. IIRC she was fired from her position with the Broncos for reasonable cause indicating she hasn't satisfied a major condition of the trust. On the other hand Ellis seems to have a severe conflict of interest. Even back when Shanahan was HC/GM I wasn't all that enthused with Ellis' meddling in the Broncos and didn't understand why Bowlen trusted him so much. He seemed to be a force of destabilization. Seems like that intuition is now proving true.

[DenBronx]

Sad to say King, I don't hate anyone. It's a character flaw, I admit. I should perhaps be upset with you for calling me a "monster" but who really cares?

I just say Mike Shanahan + Kirk Cousins is 1,000% better than Case Keenum + Vance Joseph. THat's not even a debate really.

You might think Mike flamed out at the end of his career in Denver, but there's no dispute that he's a good head coach, while Vance Joseph just isn't. I actually was fine with firing Mike because I thought the team in 2008 had plateaued. His last 3 years were 9-7,7-9, 8-8 (in some order).

Well, 8-8 would be a step UP for this team which was =5-11, followed by maybe 6-10, possibly 7-9 this year.

Since they are FIRING Vance at the end of the season, and since the only reason they would keep Keenum (if they even do, you could be right and they decide to eat the $10m cap hit), would be because there's nobody better among veteran FA QBs out there and they don't have a developmental QB ready to step in since Chad Kelly lost his flippin' mind and got arrested.

Joe Ellis royally screwed this team. Because even if Shanahan + Cousins wouldn't be the long term answer, it at least gets you an adequate starting QB and coaching combo and you can continue to develop the team instead of having to start all over again with a new coaching regime + QB.

NO way Mike Shanahan would kick a FG down 4 points against the Browns, no way he would have lost to the 49ers or the Jets. They'd probably be 9-5 right now and in the playoff hunt with Shanny and Cousins.

And even if it didn't work out long-term, well in 2 years time Mike retires again and you get a new coach and in the mean time you have a chance to draft and develop a QB for a couple of seasons without needing to start him before he's ready.



No way in hell Shanahan kicks it. He had balls of steel.

And I agree, Shanny plus Cousins would of been a hellll of alot better

[Cugel]

No way in hell Shanahan kicks it. He had balls of steel.

And I agree, Shanny plus Cousins would of been a hellll of alot better

Were you like me, looking at the game saying "WTF? What are they doing? Does he not know how to count to 4?"

But, then I calmed down and reflected "it doesn't matter anyway. They aren't going to to the playoffs even if they won that game, and they are just going to fire VJ at season's end so in the long run it's probably a good thing they lost. They get a higher draft pick."

But, it is grating to see such poor coaching decisions. Mark Schlereth was going on and on about how many 12 man on the field penalties they had this year and last. There's just no excuse for that. They had a time out for ref's video review, then the team lines up 2 minutes later and they don't even have the right personnel on the field and get a 5 yard penalty?

What kind of crap coaching is that? And did you see the VJ and Joe Woods interactions on the sideline these last 2 weeks. There's just major dysfunction on this coaching staff, and they all need to go. Fortunately, that will happen soon, but sadly not soon enough by 1 year.