Mike Shannahan may be a possibility as the next HC

[broncofaninfla]

Woody Paige and Mike Klis are both reporting that Elway ALMOST brought Mike Shannahan back at the end of 2017 season but was shot down by Ellis. Thoughts?

[broncofaninfla]

https://www.9news.com/article/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/sources-elway-chose-joseph-over-coaching-search-after-2017-season/73-ab9648b7-a565-442d-ad6b-4bcaa5aa6c20 (https://www.9news.com/article/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/sources-elway-chose-joseph-over-coaching-search-after-2017-season/73-ab9648b7-a565-442d-ad6b-4bcaa5aa6c20)

[broncofaninfla]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/12/17/report-john-elway-considered-firing-vance-joseph-hiring-mike-shanahan/

[Hawgdriver]

I like Shanny. Don't like the optics. Maybe if he brings Wade on as DC and upgrade the QB position, and Elway keeps drafting like 2018. I do think Shanny is an outstanding HC and would love to cement his HOF bid.

[MasterShake]

I like Shanny. Don't like the optics. Maybe if he brings Wade on as DC and upgrade the QB position, and Elway keeps drafting like 2018. I do think Shanny is an outstanding HC and would love to cement his HOF bid.

Limit Shanahan to coaching and I'm fine with it.

[Freyaka]

https://www.9news.com/article/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/sources-elway-chose-joseph-over-coaching-search-after-2017-season/73-ab9648b7-a565-442d-ad6b-4bcaa5aa6c20 (https://www.9news.com/article/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/sources-elway-chose-joseph-over-coaching-search-after-2017-season/73-ab9648b7-a565-442d-ad6b-4bcaa5aa6c20)

The original story feels like elways side of the story, this feels like team Ellis firing back to paint a different narrative.

I believe klis is also reporting that elway has already been informed that bringing shanahan back is not an option (that would include 2019 I would assume)

[Freyaka]

Limit Shanahan to coaching and I'm fine with it.

Honestly, shanny having a say in the offense wouldn't be bad. He could build an offense, just sucked at putting a defense together.

[MasterShake]

Honestly, shanny having a say in the offense wouldn't be bad. He could build an offense, just sucked at putting a defense together.

I salivate at the thought of Lindsay and Freeman in a Shanny-style offense... Honestly Shannahan's biggest obstacle was Peyton Manning during his tenure here. We can take a Plummer-like QB and do some damage. Or I could only be remembering the good times. Who knows?

[BigDaddyBronco]

I don't know. I love Shanny, he had an offensive scheme that he could draft for and it worked mostly (except for the small OLine at the end that couldn't convert short yardage). His defenses were ass mostly and he sucked as a GM.

At least he was competent as a head coach, better than what we have now.

This move screams that Elway doesn't have what it takes to hire an up and coming HC however.

[VonDoom]

No thanks to Shanny. That ship has sailed. Also, Klis says he’s not on the radar for next year (reposted from the fire VJ thread):

https://twitter.com/mikeklis/status/1074703608229163009?s=21

[underrated29]

I said all of this a while back. Not sure why now everyone is talking about it.

[Davii]

I don't know. I love Shanny, he had an offensive scheme that he could draft for and it worked mostly (except for the small OLine at the end that couldn't convert short yardage). His defenses were ass mostly and he sucked as a GM.

At least he was competent as a head coach, better than what we have now.

This move screams that Elway doesn't have what it takes to hire an up and coming HC however.

I think it screams that he's tired of failure by inexperienced newbs

[BigDaddyBronco]

I think it screams that he's tired of failure by inexperienced newbs

Well he definitely missed the boat with his first one.

[Davii]

Well he definitely missed the boat with his first one.

And he had to clean up the mess after the first one as well

[dogfish]

i remember bob slowick, and i say thank god for joe ellis. . . elway needs to come up with a forward-thinking approach. . . not make a desperation hire based on nostalgia because he can't come up with any better ideas. . . shanny is an absolute non-starter for me. . . those old coaches always want a significant voice (if not final say) in personnel, and he was atrocious at it. . .

[BeefStew25]

I miss Lenny Walls

[dogfish]

I miss Lenny Walls

what about george foster?

[MOtorboat]

What do you suppose John Engelberger is doing these days?

[broncofaninfla]

The leaks over this story have me curious. With most of Broncos Country calling for VJ's head it's almost as though people wanted to leak blame so it wasn't focused on the wrong person/people. With that said if this story is true I don't see it being any less true that Shanny could be re-considered despite Klis's story to the contrary. I for one would love to see a Shanny Kubiak reunion with Elway and company calling the roster shots. It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

[tomjonesrocks]

Insane story. If it really would have come with Cousins I'm not sure how anyone could argue the position the Broncos are in now is in any way preferable.

If Ellis won't let Elway do his job then I don't expect Elway to be in his role much longer.

[atwater27]

I’d take Shanny back in a heartbeat. But yes, severely limit his Personell authority. He isn’t old and tired, he knows football still and I’m sure he communicates with his son quite a bit on modern offensive schemes.

[Poet]

Well, in Washington he hated RGIII, RGIII hated him, and yet they both made the playoffs with one another. So, if you give him a physically capable QB, he still has it, at least to a degree.

But, the rest of his time in Washington was a bit of a dumpster fire. He ended poorly in Washington and was seen as a bit of a joke.

Elway seems to be in love with the Broncos of old. It makes me wary.

[Tbolt]

Screw Ellis.

[Tbolt]

Well, in Washington he hated RGIII, RGIII hated him, and yet they both made the playoffs with one another. So, if you give him a physically capable QB, he still has it, at least to a degree.

But, the rest of his time in Washington was a bit of a dumpster fire. He ended poorly in Washington and was seen as a bit of a joke.

Elway seems to be in love with the Broncos of old. It makes me wary.

Before he got to DC they got into Cap Hell, thanks to front loading on the uncapped year. Then they traded a boatload to get RGIII who Shanny didn't event want. They could not round out the roster with those handcuffs on and it showed.

[Poet]

Before he got to DC they got into Cap Hell, thanks to front loading on the uncapped year. Then they traded a boatload to get RGIII who Shanny didn't event want. They could not round out the roster with those handcuffs on and it showed.

True, but it wasn't just bad, it was very ugly. Look, I'm only three seasons into my Broncodom, and what I've learned is that when you're labeled a Broncos hero you're essentially a God. Even when Shanahan was fielding teams that collapsed at the end of the season in Denver, and refused to fire Slowick, he still had adamant supporters claiming he was an elite HC.

I'm not going to change anyone's mind on the matter. But, in fairness to RGIII, Shanahan didn't do anything without him, and vice versa. RGIII was never going to stay healthy, but if he had, and had he and Shanahan respected one another more, it could have been great.

Ironically they both have one another's backs now.

[turftoad]

Before he got to DC they got into Cap Hell, thanks to front loading on the uncapped year. Then they traded a boatload to get RGIII who Shanny didn't event want. They could not round out the roster with those handcuffs on and it showed.

Shortly after they drafted both RG3 and Cousins, Shanny said that Cousins, not RG3 was going to be a franchise QB.

I forgive Shanny's time in DC as they were dis functional back then and I don't think it was Shanny's fault.

[Northman]

Woody Paige and Mike Klis are both reporting that Elway ALMOST brought Mike Shannahan back at the end of 2017 season but was shot down by Ellis. Thoughts?

I love everything that SHanny did for us but i just dont think going with him a second time around is a good idea. I would like to see Denver go with a innovative young mind

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Shanny would be a huge improvement over what we’ve seen the last 2 years.

[Northman]

I like Shanny. Don't like the optics. Maybe if he brings Wade on as DC and upgrade the QB position, and Elway keeps drafting like 2018. I do think Shanny is an outstanding HC and would love to cement his HOF bid.

I just dont think his style would be very successful at this stage. Still love the guy though but i think the team needs to be more forward thinking.

[Northman]

Shortly after they drafted both RG3 and Cousins, Shanny said that Cousins, not RG3 was going to be a franchise QB.

I forgive Shanny's time in DC as they were dis functional back then and I don't think it was Shanny's fault.

Plus, Snyder is a poor man's Jerry Jones which is the same as trying to work for daddy Davis in Oakland. Those kinds of owners can be very difficult to work with for any HC.

[DenBronx]

Limit Shanahan to coaching and I'm fine with it.


This.


And yes, please bring Wade back as DC! Kubiak can be the OC! Chaaaaampionshiiiip

[DenBronx]

I just dont think his style would be very successful at this stage. Still love the guy though but i think the team needs to be more forward thinking.


You hush! You are an unsuccessful fan











Jk North

[TXBRONC]

No thanks to Shanny. That ship has sailed. Also, Klis says he’s not on the radar for next year (reposted from the fire VJ thread):

https://twitter.com/mikeklis/status/1074703608229163009?s=21

Well, that kind of sounds like Joseph is done.

[Freyaka]

Well, that kind of sounds like Joseph is done.

I wish, but reports are saying if he gets back to 8-8 he stays.

[TXBRONC]

I wish, but reports are saying if he gets back to 8-8 he stays.

What reports?

He's only one loss away from finishing below .500 so I'm not going to hold my breath.

[Northman]

Well, that kind of sounds like Joseph is done.

I would certainly hope so.

[Northman]

I wish, but reports are saying if he gets back to 8-8 he stays.

The Chargers are still playing for the division title so i dont think we beat them a 2nd time. Im not even sure if we beat the Raiders again.

[Northman]

What reports?

He's only one loss away from finishing below .500 so I'm not going to hold my breath.

It goes beyond all that, this team was supposed to be a playoff contender this year and failed. Thats on him and thus he should be fired for it.

[TXBRONC]

It goes beyond all that, this team was supposed to be a playoff contender this year and failed. Thats on him and thus he should be fired for it.

Agreed.

I have said previously I thought it is/was possible Joseph stay if showed improvement but part of my thought process is that Denver would beat teams like the 49ers and the Browns. If we can't beat those teams to at the very least stay in contention then I don't see he can remain even if the Broncos win the last two games to go 8-8.

[Freyaka]

What reports?

He's only one loss away from finishing below .500 so I'm not going to hold my breath.

I'd have to go back and find them, I believe it was Klis talking about it today. I agree ne needs gone like yesterday, but it sounds like Joe Ellis is content with being mediocre at this point.

[Tbolt]

I respect the hell out of Shanahan the game day coach. He had a drought with the daft and made terrible Free Agent decisions. That said, I think he was fired a year before the team he wanted could have taken the field. Him being just the coach with talent acquisition being someone else problem would be ideal.

[broncofaninfla]

Keep in mind all sources for this story are unnamed so if we've learned anything from the mainstream media this could all be BS. The timing of the story leads me to think that there is some truth to it. It's a virtual mutiny with a lot of Broncos Country in regards to VJ, this could have been a way of letting people know that changes are in fact on the way and who is to blame for VJ being here in the first place.

[Poet]

There is a certain romantic element to it, though. I mean, the narrative is that of legend. The coach who helped the aging QB attain SB glory comes back to right the same ship all those years later.

FFS, they make movies about emojis now, so certainly that's good enough for a Hollywood yarn and film.

[Hawgdriver]

I just dont think his style would be very successful at this stage. Still love the guy though but i think the team needs to be more forward thinking.

Idk. Mike's hallmark has always been innovation. I'm sure he's got some new concepts to unleash if he came back. He did it with RG3. I'm actually fine with him in this regard.

There is no silver bullet coach out there. He'd be fine as long as his last experience taught him his blind spots.

[slim]

The Chargers are still playing for the division title so i dont think we beat them a 2nd time. Im not even sure if we beat the Raiders again.

The NFL is funny.

[Northman]

The NFL is funny.

Indeed, the last 2 weeks have been hilarious for the 2018 Denver Broncos.

[dogfish]

is elway gonna play quarterback for him?

[ShaneFalco]

i never was here for shannahans bad years.

so i always liked the guy

[Cugel]

Agreed.

I have said previously I thought it is/was possible Joseph stay if showed improvement but part of my thought process is that Denver would beat teams like the 49ers and the Browns. If we can't beat those teams to at the very least stay in contention then I don't see he can remain even if the Broncos win the last two games to go 8-8.

This is right. VJ improved his position with Elway and Ellis by the 3 game winning streak including beating 2 playoff teams in Pittsburgh and the Chargers. But, then the losing to 2-10 teams including the hapless Browns. The Broncos haven't lost to the Browns since 1990. Cleveland might be getting better, but that's the kind of game you have to win, if you're serious about trying and getting into the playoffs.

Well, we'll know soon, but VJ is almost certainly gone unless he wins the last 2 and goes 8-8. He's still probably gone, but maybe he could squeak through.

But, this whole story about Mike Shanahan means that Elway WANTED to fire Joseph and was DENIED by Ellis:

SO, all the blame, from everybody who hates VJ and wants him fired yesterday goes to Joe Ellis, the man who engineered VJ's staying in Denver for another wasted year. And the man who refuses to consider hiring him next year either.

We will get to watch and see if the story is true. There's ZERO logical reason to refuse to consider Mike Shanahan when you're supposedly considering Ken Wisenhunt. Considering his last head coaching job with the Titans resulted in a 2-14 record I'd be against hiring him here. He did a good job as the Chargers OC, but they have Phillip Rivers and we have Joe Schlobotnick*

*Joe Schlobotnik was Charlie Brown's baseball hero. He was constantly getting sent down to the minors.

[ShaneFalco]

So Joe Ellis hired Mcdaniels and hired VJ?

Why is this guy still here?

[Valar Morghulis]

The day shanny let rg3 stay on the field against Seattle was the day that should be cited as the point when he ceased to be able to run an NFL franchise

[Northman]

That wasnt all on Shanny though. Shanahan tried to get RGIII to become more of a pocket passer first but Griffin liked to run and he wasnt built to take that kind of punishment in the NFL. Even now years later we see that RGIII simply cannot hold onto a starting job and i think that is why Shanahan gravitated towards Cousins who was more of the prototypical pocket QB he was used to. Point being, RGIII brought a lot the injury woes on himself for not sliding, going out of bounds, etc.

[Valar Morghulis]

That wasnt all on Shanny though. Shanahan tried to get RGIII to become more of a pocket passer first but Griffin liked to run and he wasnt built to take that kind of punishment in the NFL. Even now years later we see that RGIII simply cannot hold onto a starting job and i think that is why Shanahan gravitated towards Cousins who was more of the prototypical pocket QB he was used to. Point being, RGIII brought a lot the injury woes on himself for not sliding, going out of bounds, etc.

the dude was injured so badly i could see it from scotland - and shanny let him ride in the hope of a miracle. that's all on shanny

[Poet]

RGIII was limping on the field for parts of the game, and on one hit the announcers were shocked Shanahan didn't pull him. A few plays later, I think in the next series, and RGIII tears his ACL.

Now make no mistake, if Shanahan meant we were getting Cousins to come here, and not make some of the roster moves that we did, sure. Cousins is having (another) big time season and having come into his own as a player. He and Shanahan in tandem doesn't sound as bad.

But man, Shanahan might have been in Washington, but he went there willingly and was pretty bad. And towards his end of time here, he was not coaching well, either. Those last season collapses start with the head coach and the QB that the head coach clamored for.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Reports were RG3 asked to stay in the game.
Phillip Rivers played an entire game on a torn acl. The point is, the sanctimonious reaction is a bit misguided.

[Northman]

Reports were RG3 asked to stay in the game.
Phillip Rivers player an entire game on a torn acl. The point is, the sanctimonious reaction is a bit misguided.

Exactly.

[Poet]

Reports were RG3 asked to stay in the game.
Phillip Rivers player an entire game on a torn acl. The point is, the sanctimonious reaction is a bit misguided.

Of course he asked to stay in the game. He's a professional athlete. That's to be expected - players act like that all the time.

Rivers did do that. That's not the typical scenario; most of the time you tear an ACL and get carted off the field.

Your post relies upon outliers (Rivers) and misses the point that it's not on the players to make that call. Moreover, after RG3 wasn't the same, neither was that team. Shanahan botched managing both long and short term.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Of course he asked to stay in the game. He's a professional athlete. That's to be expected - players act like that all the time.

Rivers did do that. That's not the typical scenario; most of the time you tear an ACL and get carted off the field.

Your post relies upon outliers (Rivers) and misses the point that it's not on the players to make that call. Moreover, after RG3 wasn't the same, neither was that team. Shanahan botched managing both long and short term.
There’s a lot of truth to what you’re saying. However the fact remains the situation is a little more nuanced than some care to admit.

[Northman]

Of course he asked to stay in the game. He's a professional athlete. That's to be expected - players act like that all the time.

Rivers did do that. That's not the typical scenario; most of the time you tear an ACL and get carted off the field.

Your post relies upon outliers (Rivers) and misses the point that it's not on the players to make that call. Moreover, after RG3 wasn't the same, neither was that team. Shanahan botched managing both long and short term.

NO

If a player tells you they can play and the doctors have not said the player cannot play you cant pin that on the coach. Thats a ridiculous assertion. Its one thing if the medical team said that he should be pulled. Shanahan had his faults while at Wash but that particular issue isnt on him.

[Tbolt]

Of course he asked to stay in the game. He's a professional athlete. That's to be expected - players act like that all the time.

Rivers did do that. That's not the typical scenario; most of the time you tear an ACL and get carted off the field.

Your post relies upon outliers (Rivers) and misses the point that it's not on the players to make that call. Moreover, after RG3 wasn't the same, neither was that team. Shanahan botched managing both long and short term.

If only we had your insight, we could have pulled CHJ out of that game, and given Hemanuel the day off so he didn't tear his achilles. Your failure to act on what the coaching staff should have been able to predict is at the heart of why we are now eliminated. I hope you are happy nostradumas.

[turftoad]

To bad we are talking about Mike and not Kyle.

If we would have hired Kyle 2 years ago we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Poet]

If only we had your insight, we could have pulled CHJ out of that game, and given Hemanuel the day off so he didn't tear his achilles. Your failure to act on what the coaching staff should have been able to predict is at the heart of why we are now eliminated. I hope you are happy nostradumas.

Yeah, it's not even the same thing, though. In one instance a guy just gets hurt. Another instance a guy is limping around and in pain, unable to run all that well for a chunk of the game.

It was even apparent to the announcers.

When Shanahan left he wasn't a sacred cow. But with a few years to soften the memory, nostalgia, and VJ being our current HC, we here now.

Go Broncos.

[Poet]

To bad we are talking about Mike and not Kyle.

If we would have hired Kyle 2 years ago we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It would have been cool.

[aberdien]

At some point you just gotta move on. I love Shanny and think he could still be a successful coach...but he ain't coming back and winning another SB with us.

[Poet]

FTR, someone had noted that him coming back could cement his HOF status.

Bad coaches at best can win one SB (think Switzer's lame ass) or some nice regular seasons before they implode (think Childress). There is no two time SB winning coach who isn't a God of Football.

Shanahan, even with the ugly exit in his career, was a God.

[Simple Jaded]

I’d be cool if Shanatan came back if he brought in a John DeFilipo as OC, but if it’s still stretch zone right on 1st down, stretch zone left on 2nd and QB Waggle on 3rd I’ll pass too. And for no other reason than I hate those OL’s. Love the system, hate the personnel they THINK they need.

[slim]

At some point you just gotta move on. I love Shanny and think he could still be a successful coach...but he ain't coming back and winning another SB with us.

Let's move on after Shanny goes back to back again.

[dogfish]

i don't wanna party like it's 1999 again. . . hold me, slim, i'm scared!

[FanInAZ]

i don't wanna party like it's 1999 again. . . hold me, slim, i'm scared!

I do. Well, to clarify, like its January 31,1999; the day we won SB XXXIII. After that, everything pretty much went down hill.

[Valar Morghulis]

NO

If a player tells you they can play and the doctors have not said the player cannot play you cant pin that on the coach. Thats a ridiculous assertion. Its one thing if the medical team said that he should be pulled. Shanahan had his faults while at Wash but that particular issue isnt on him.

Concussion protocol was created because professional athletes don't admit when they are hurt

Just like a boxing coach sometimes needs to to throw the towel in to protect their fighter, shanny should have pulled the

it's not nuanced at all because he was hobbling about and playing dreadful, and you have a back up on that bench that you rate highly

To be overruled by a rookie with an ego is weak coaching

As for the predicting injury of CHJ, lol. What a stranger argument. No one can predict the future in a situation like that, but all the indicators in the rg3 pointed towards a bad injury and a player that could not execute the full Playbook as a result

[Poet]

NO

If a player tells you they can play and the doctors have not said the player cannot play you cant pin that on the coach. Thats a ridiculous assertion. Its one thing if the medical team said that he should be pulled. Shanahan had his faults while at Wash but that particular issue isnt on him.

He said he could play. Shanahan watched him limp around. The announcers, objective viewers, were shocked he wasn't pulled. It's not ridiculous, it's what literally happened.

https://www.sbnation.com/2015/9/1/9232961/robert-griffin-iii-washington-jay-gruden-dan-snyder-mike-shanahan-injury-concussion

Griffin was cleared to play in Washington's playoff game against Seattle, albeit wearing a knee brace that causes him to limp slightly. The knee bothered him from the get-go, and he heads back to the locker room after a few big hits from the Seahawks.

Griffin vehemently argued that he should be allowed to return to the game, and Shanahan let him. It was evident that this was a very bad idea from the get-go: Griffin was clearly limping and his mobility was restricted, as he got hit on plays where he normally would've escaped.

Then, on a botched snap in the fourth quarter, his knee buckled:


Who to blame for Griffin's injury became a topic for debate. Many asked why Shanahan didn't pull his QB, Others criticized Griffin for not knowing how to play hurt. And others pointed out that Washington's field was in terrible condition. Either way, it was clear he should never have been allowed to come back.

Earlier in that article, I can't post it because of forum rules about usage of the article, there's a part where a doctor said he never had a conversation with Shanahan about an RG3 injury. This was in week 13. Shanahan claimed that he did.

Most players will always say they're able to get back in. We've seen this with players trying to lie about the concussion symptoms, for instance. Difference is that you can tell when a guy's legs aren't working as compared to a concussion.

That falls on Shanahan.

[Northman]

It wasnt Shanahan's fault. Sorry, not sorry.

[Poet]

It wasnt Shanahan's fault. Sorry, not sorry.

We can disagree. The world shan’t end.

Until Ragnarok...

[Valar Morghulis]

It wasnt Shanahan's fault. Sorry, not sorry.

Fair enough man of the north.

But let me ask you this, injury aside. Do you think it was a good/correct coaching choice to let him stay in with such a significant limitation, he could not execute the plays properly?

Because even if the later serious injury blame issue is put to one side, it was still, in my opinion weak coaching to leave him in. Thoughts?

[Northman]

Fair enough man of the north.

But let me ask you this, injury aside. Do you think it was a good/correct coaching choice to let him stay in with such a significant limitation, he could not execute the plays properly?

Because even if the later serious injury blame issue is put to one side, it was still, in my opinion weak coaching to leave him in. Thoughts?

I look at this way.

I think we can agree that players tend to play hurt when "technically" they should not. How many times have fans on this board championed DT's playing hurt in the SB vs the Seahawks? And i think we can all agree that even Elway himself probably played at times when he probably shouldnt have. Now the problem with RGIII and Shanahan is yes, RGIII should not have played but i understand why RGIII chose to stay in because of two reasons. He knew that Cousins was vying for his job and the other reason is "reputation". Look no further than when Jay Cutler got hurt in the playoffs so many moons ago. He got ANNIHILATED by just about everyone including other players that were not even playing that day so there seems to be a sense of respect that players look for while playing this sport. Does it make it right that these guys need to somehow validate their toughness when playing hurt? Nah. But regardless that perception seems to be there.

As you pointed to in another post Dave its a good thing that league itself has forcefully imposed stuff like concussion protocol because otherwise we would be seeing the same stuff we have in the past including RGIII's situation. Shanahan and RGIII already had a rocky relationship so i think on one hand Mike had trusted RGIII when he said he could play. I just think things like that episode puts a HC in a very very tough spot because some players can fight through with stuff like that and others simply cannot. It was a no win situation for either of them in my opinion but i cant fault either of them in that case.

[Valar Morghulis]

I look at this way.

I think we can agree that players tend to play hurt when "technically" they should not. How many times have fans on this board championed DT's playing hurt in the SB vs the Seahawks? And i think we can all agree that even Elway himself probably played at times when he probably shouldnt have. Now the problem with RGIII and Shanahan is yes, RGIII should not have played but i understand why RGIII chose to stay in because of two reasons. He knew that Cousins was vying for his job and the other reason is "reputation". Look no further than when Jay Cutler got hurt in the playoffs so many moons ago. He got ANNIHILATED by just about everyone including other players that were not even playing that day so there seems to be a sense of respect that players look for while playing this sport. Does it make it right that these guys need to somehow validate their toughness when playing hurt? Nah. But regardless that perception seems to be there.

As you pointed to in another post Dave its a good thing that league itself has forcefully imposed stuff like concussion protocol because otherwise we would be seeing the same stuff we have in the past including RGIII's situation. Shanahan and RGIII already had a rocky relationship so i think on one hand Mike had trusted RGIII when he said he could play. I just think things like that episode puts a HC in a very very tough spot because some players can fight through with stuff like that and others simply cannot. It was a no win situation for either of them in my opinion but i cant fault either of them in that case.

as we say in Scotland, fair doos big chap!

I think shanny hated rg3 and left him in to get hurt so he could start cousins without pressure from above.


I don't really think that but it popped into my head when I was reading your reply lol

[Traveler]

And for no other reason than I hate those OL’s. Love the system, hate the personnel they THINK they need.

I am so with you on this!

[broncofaninfla]

the dude was injured so badly i could see it from scotland - and shanny let him ride in the hope of a miracle. that's all on shanny

The Skins medical staff said he was good to go and RGIII lobbied hard to play. Players play hurt in the NFL, that's the reality.

[Valar Morghulis]

The Skins medical staff said he was good to go and RGIII lobbied hard to play. Players play hurt in the NFL, that's the reality.

He couldn't run, couldn't escape pressure, couldn't plant his feet to throw. He was so limited, I would have been a better option.

Players play hurt, sure. But injured players also sit.

[slim]

He couldn't run, couldn't escape pressure, couldn't plant his feet to throw. He was so limited, I would have been a better option.



Sounds like Manning in SB 50!

[Valar Morghulis]

Sounds like Manning in SB 50!

He was just old lol

[Tbolt]

Cam couldn't throw the ball last night, has a hurt shoulder, still played.

[MOtorboat]

Cam couldn't throw the ball last night, has a hurt shoulder, still played.

Cam Newton is also a drama king.

[Cugel]

as we say in Scotland, fair doos big chap!

I think shanny hated rg3 and left him in to get hurt so he could start cousins without pressure from above.

I don't really think that but it popped into my head when I was reading your reply lol

RGIII had a tremendous rookie season, but got his knee hurt. He came back and publicly said he wanted to become a pocket passing QB, but he didn't have the accuracy to do that.

Then Dan Snyder became his best friend. He alone of all the players flew on the owners' plane to games. He sucked, but Snyder kept insisting that RGIII was his QB. Shanahan wanted to win and keep his job so he wanted to keep Kirk Cousins as his QB, not RGIII.

This got Shanny fired. The owner insisted they start RGIII. They did. He sucked. They fired their coach and GM and got rid of RGIII. After that he went to the Browns, threw 2 TDs and 3 INTs, and got cut by the 0-16 Browns. Then he went to back up in Baltimore where he has a completion percentage 33.3% and a 44.4 passer rating. :coffee:

[Valar Morghulis]

Cam couldn't throw the ball last night, has a hurt shoulder, still played.

Ah - cool, this without question is the exact same situation and totally nullifies my point of view!

[underrated29]

Ah - cool, this without question is the exact same situation and totally nullifies my point of view!

Of course it does you wanker

[Valar Morghulis]

Of course it does you wanker

Imma gonna **** you up

[Shazam!]

I asked for it and I can see it. Ellis MAY be thinking he should have done it last year now.

[Freyaka]

Imma gonna **** you up

Don't tease him, he'd enjoy that too much.

[Tbolt]

Ah - cool, this without question is the exact same situation and totally nullifies my point of view!

Clearly injured player. Should not have played. Because he is the starter, and the star, of course he played. And was very limited. A QB with a wrecked throwing arm is about as valuable as an 80's Buick. I think the two situations are very comparable. If he goes out there and does serious damage to that already injured part, the coaching staff will be blamed. It's still Cam's call whether or not to try and go, and pretty difficult for the coaching staff to tell that guy no. How many games did it take to sit a clearly injured Manning?

Just saying, benching RGknee in that game was probably not on Shanahan's to do list.

The fact that he came back the next year with a big head, uncoachable, and was going to do it his way, with the owner lapping it up...yeah that was going to end well.

Not every QB has Jay Cutlers sense of self preservation.

If you want to question anything about Shanahan's time in Washington, it would be why he went there in the first place.

[Simple Jaded]

I wish Shanatan would make Keenum play through a debilitating injury.

[Simple Jaded]

I’d be cool if Shanatan came back if he brought in a John DeFilipo as OC, but if it’s still stretch zone right on 1st down, stretch zone left on 2nd and QB Waggle on 3rd I’ll pass too. And for no other reason than I hate those OL’s. Love the system, hate the personnel they THINK they need.

You disappoint me, Kinger.

[Poet]

You disappoint me, Kinger.

I'm treating you like a hype man.

And you have to put on the red light.

:shocked:

[Simple Jaded]

I'm treating you like a hype man.

And you have to put on the red light.

:shocked:
I don’t even have a red light, you’re not the boss of me.

[Poet]

I don’t even have a red light, you’re not the boss of me.

The King and Jaded connection is officially dead.

I'll never not love you.

[Simple Jaded]

The King and Jaded connection is officially dead.

I'll never not love you.

I’m never gonna dance again.

[Poet]

I’m never gonna dance again.

But we're white so we never had any rhythm.

Wait... I mean guilty feet have no...

Nah. I stand by what I said.

[Simple Jaded]

But we're white so we never had any rhythm.

Wait... I mean guilty feet have no...

Nah. I stand by what I said.

Wait ... you’ll never dance again. You’re the guilty one.

[Poet]

Wait ... you’ll never dance again. You’re the guilty one.

I’m dancing right now.

[Simple Jaded]

I’m dancing right now.

Judas.

[dogfish]

I’m dancing right now.

on jaded's grave?

[Simple Jaded]

on jaded's grave?

On my soul. But he’s wearing Ugs so it’s no big loss.

[Poet]

On my soul. But he’s wearing Ugs so it’s no big loss.

Your wife bought them for me. :coffee:

[Simple Jaded]

Your wife bought them for me. :coffee:

You!

[Poet]

You!

I wear three hundred dollar shoes and have a couple thousand dollar suits. I know criminals need representing. I got a lot of things to lose.

Come kill the king, Jaded. Destroy the despot. :laugh:

[Simple Jaded]

I wear three hundred dollar shoes and have a couple thousand dollar suits. I know criminals need representing. I got a lot of things to lose.

Come kill the king, Jaded. Destroy the despot. :laugh:

If I were in the business of killing despots you’d be way down the list.

Btw, I’m sorry you have to wear a monkey suit, that must suck.

[Cugel]

Well, from the reporting Joe Ellis said "hell no!" to John Elway's plan to bring Shanatan back to Denver so we won't have that to debate. He ain't coming here.

From my perspective that's sad, because I can't see any better coaches out there wanting to come to Denver and try and win with Case Keenum or some rookie QB (there's not even a great QB draft to look for when the team is probably no worse than 6-10. Right now they'd be picking 12th and even with 2 more losses, they probably don't pick higher than maybe 9th or 10th. There are currently 6 teams with 5 wins, and all of them would have to win at least 1 more game for the Broncos to potentially draft ahead of them.

[Freyaka]

I wear three hundred dollar shoes and have a couple thousand dollar suits. I know criminals need representing. I got a lot of things to lose.

Come kill the king, Jaded. Destroy the despot. :laugh:

https://media.giphy.com/media/agDSoV6jzWbEA/giphy-downsized-large.gif

[BeefStew25]

Wanting Shanny back is a good litmus on mental retardation.

Oh shit. Elway wanted Shanny back.

****.

[Simple Jaded]

Wanting Shanny back is a good litmus on mental retardation.

Oh shit. Elway wanted Shanny back.

****.
I think Elway needs to start drinking again.

[BeefStew25]

I think Elway needs to start drinking again.

I don’t think he stopped.

[Hawgdriver]

Y'all don't give Mike enough credit.

I'm not pining for the dude, but he's a damn good football mind. I'd prefer a younger cat, but he's definitely worth considering.

Damn, do I have to make the case? Then I'll get tagged as the pro-Shanny guy.

W/e

Here's the case for Shan Sr.

He's a quality head coach as proven by many years of winning football.

He innovated throughout his career.

He knows how to get results with his QB. He's had Elways, Plummers, RG3s, and everything in between. He designs for the players.

He's BB's age. Would you take BB as a HC right now?

He almost died.

This is important to him.

You take a noob you get noob things.

He has rapport with existing staff.

He might be too ossified, I get that, but he might also be the best candidate. I bet he'd kick more ass than anyone expects. With this D and Cousins this year we'd be talking about playoff seeding rather than this crap we got.

Thanks Joe.

[Shazam!]

Y'all don't give Mike enough credit.

I'm not pining for the dude, but he's a damn good football mind. I'd prefer a younger cat, but he's definitely worth considering.

Damn, do I have to make the case? Then I'll get tagged as the pro-Shanny guy.

W/e

Here's the case for Shan Sr.

He's a quality head coach as proven by many years of winning football.

He innovated throughout his career.

He knows how to get results with his QB. He's had Elways, Plummers, RG3s, and everything in between. He designs for the players.

He's BB's age. Would you take BB as a HC right now?

He almost died.

This is important to him.

You take a noob you get noob things.

He has rapport with existing staff.

He might be too ossified, I get that, but he might also be the best candidate. I bet he'd kick more ass than anyone expects. With this D and Cousins this year we'd be talking about playoff seeding rather than this crap we got.

Thanks Joe.

He is 10x the Coach that VJ could ever hope to be.

[Simple Jaded]

So, Shanatan it is, sure glad we can all agree that his return is in the teams best interest and a slam dunk hire.

Now that we got that decided, who is his DC and OC?

[Simple Jaded]

Lincoln Riley wouldn’t be a noob, he’s actually got HC experience.

Just spitballing.

[Northman]

Y'all don't give Mike enough credit.

I'm not pining for the dude, but he's a damn good football mind. I'd prefer a younger cat, but he's definitely worth considering.

Damn, do I have to make the case? Then I'll get tagged as the pro-Shanny guy.

W/e

Here's the case for Shan Sr.

He's a quality head coach as proven by many years of winning football.

He innovated throughout his career.

He knows how to get results with his QB. He's had Elways, Plummers, RG3s, and everything in between. He designs for the players.

He's BB's age. Would you take BB as a HC right now?

He almost died.

This is important to him.

You take a noob you get noob things.

He has rapport with existing staff.

He might be too ossified, I get that, but he might also be the best candidate. I bet he'd kick more ass than anyone expects. With this D and Cousins this year we'd be talking about playoff seeding rather than this crap we got.

Thanks Joe.

Yea, im not wanting to bring him back either but damn the way some people talk is as if he is worse than Josh McDaniels or VJ. :lol:

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Well said Hawg.

[Cugel]

He is 10x the Coach that VJ could ever hope to be.

That's all needs to be said about that comparison.

The question isn't "Is Shanahan the best coach in the NFL? Is he as good as Sean McVay for instance?" Well, no. Is he the best coach available? Maybe. Is he better than any "hot young coordinator who hasn't coached in the NFL before and has to learn?" HELL NO!

We just went down that route and it was a disaster twice, first with McMoron, and now with VJ. They have had some success with veteran experienced coaches: Fox, and Kubiak and previously Shanahan. They have had ZERO luck promoting the "new hotness" coordinator and having that work out (if you could call VJ the "new hotness" at the time of his hire - a lot of fans did not, but John Elway did. He was Jonesing for VJ for years - so much so they couldn't even switch their decision when Kyle Shanahan had a "great interview".

[Poet]

Y'all don't give Mike enough credit.

I'm not pining for the dude, but he's a damn good football mind. I'd prefer a younger cat, but he's definitely worth considering.

Damn, do I have to make the case? Then I'll get tagged as the pro-Shanny guy.

W/e

Here's the case for Shan Sr.

He's a quality head coach as proven by many years of winning football.

He innovated throughout his career.

He knows how to get results with his QB. He's had Elways, Plummers, RG3s, and everything in between. He designs for the players.

He's BB's age. Would you take BB as a HC right now?

He almost died.

This is important to him.

You take a noob you get noob things.

He has rapport with existing staff.

He might be too ossified, I get that, but he might also be the best candidate. I bet he'd kick more ass than anyone expects. With this D and Cousins this year we'd be talking about playoff seeding rather than this crap we got.

Thanks Joe.

Hawg...baby...I can’t agree.

[Hawgdriver]

Lincoln Riley wouldn’t be a noob, he’s actually got HC experience.

Just spitballing.

I'd prefer Riley.

[Hawgdriver]

Hawg...baby...I can’t agree.

I think it's a bit of a blind spot for you, but I think your position is quite defensible.

I did some research on coaches and their age.

My gut says Shan Sr. would be good for a few years, possible SB run or two, with the right QB. I'd let him take a Lamar Jackson and go ham, see what happens. Kubiak as OC would be fair, but wouldn't mind another mind more orthogonal.

[Hawgdriver]

He is 10x the Coach that VJ could ever hope to be.

Eh. I'm ok with more VJ tbh.

[Poet]

I think it's a bit of a blind spot for you, but I think your position is quite defensible.

I did some research on coaches and their age.

My gut says Shan Sr. would be good for a few years, possible SB run or two, with the right QB. I'd let him take a Lamar Jackson and go ham, see what happens. Kubiak as OC would be fair, but wouldn't mind another mind more orthogonal.

It could be a blind spot. IDK. I think I’m just set in my ways! I wouldn’t bemoan certain older coaches. Bruce Arians, for instance.

[Hawgdriver]

It could be a blind spot. IDK. I think I’m just set in my ways! I wouldn’t bemoan certain older coaches. Bruce Arians, for instance.

Shanahan embarrassed himself a bit at the end...was it an ownership issue? I recall RG3 was buddied up with Snyder.

[turftoad]

Eh. I'm ok with more VJ tbh.

After the first consecutive losing seasons since the 1971-72 season??

Not me my friend!

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/12/20/new-coach-is-expected-in-denver/

[Northman]

After the first consecutive losing seasons since the 1971-72 season??

Not me my friend!

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/12/20/new-coach-is-expected-in-denver/

Me either.

[Hawgdriver]

After the first consecutive losing seasons since the 1971-72 season??

Not me my friend!

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/12/20/new-coach-is-expected-in-denver/

Right. It's all on VJ and not the QB, roster, leadership, schedule, etc.

Hey, not saying I want the guy, but he's being discredited more than he deserves. By a wide margin. I see quality traits and growth. I wouldn't be surprised if down the road we end up saying 'we could have kept VJ'.

[Poet]

Shanahan embarrassed himself a bit at the end...was it an ownership issue? I recall RG3 was buddied up with Snyder.

He really is an interesting dude. He didn't want RG3 but needed RG3 as much as RG3 needed him. They were brilliant together. Then the injury. So, that's a bad look on Shanahan to not want the guy who he styled with.

But, Shanahan was the QB God Whisperer and pointed out Kirk Cousins well before anyone else. That's not just a good look, that's a great look. People can shit on Cousins all they want, but he's put up strong production on teams with great AND awful personnel.

That being said, his last few years in Denver were not promising. And his end in Washington was embarrassing. In Washington he was no longer really innovating so much as taking his system and matching it, in my opinion, perfectly to RG3. And I do mean perfectly. RG3 was making some insane plays, but he was put in a position to succeed.

But I don't want Shanahan not just because I think the game's passed him up a bit. I don't want him because I am scared John Elway is caught in retread mindset. You can only go to the well so many times. When we first hired Shanahan it was bold. Let's be bold again. We didn't get to where we've been by playing it safe or scared. That's what the retreads really are. With Kubiak it was fine because the roster was just stacked and we needed someone steady. Kubiak wasn't a top tier coach, but he was solid. And could be trusted. That's what we needed.

We don't have a finished project here. So we need someone to build. It's not like the Kubiak at all. Moreover, how do you build with a very old coach with a hardset mentality as to what offense is? I don't see it.

Now, you tell me hypothetically we find a top QB talent, even if he is just a LITTLE raw, not PL raw, and we have Shanahan, and Shanny has no power over anything but HCing, I could live with that.

[turftoad]

Right. It's all on VJ and not the QB, roster, leadership, schedule, etc.

Hey, not saying I want the guy, but he's being discredited more than he deserves. By a wide margin. I see quality traits and growth. I wouldn't be surprised if down the road we end up saying 'we could have kept VJ'.

He's shown to many times that he's in over his head.

[Hawgdriver]

But I don't want Shanahan not just because I think the game's passed him up a bit. I don't want him because I am scared John Elway is caught in retread mindset.

That was a quality post, I agree in whole. This part in particular resonates.

But what if that is the best Elway has? Then do you look to replace Elway? Then who fills the Elway vacuum to offset the Trust? It ain't pretty.

For the life of me, I don't understand why Stanford alum Elway isn't using the Stanford VR suite that Mahomes and Reid are using. You could read a lot into this, or nothing at all. Are they married to Sundquist's nascent project? Did Elway and STRIVR have friction? Is he being too old school and narrow-minded, like he is when he evaluates his QBs? This line of thought epitomizes my concerns about Elway.

[Hawgdriver]

He's shown to many times that he's in over his head.

No argument here. I see growth and increasing confidence. Being a new head coach on a crappy team can make you look sorry. Even the great ones took their lumps at some point. I have major concerns with him, too, but I don't want to fall into this line of thinking that change for its own sake is always the right answer. Give me a realistic candidate that would sign on with Denver that is clearly better, I'll almost certainly sign on. When we think some white knight unproven coach is going to save the franchise we are often more hopeful than correct.

[Northman]

but he's being discredited more than he deserves. By a wide margin. I see quality traits and growth.

Oh my.....

[Northman]

No argument here. I see growth and increasing confidence. Being a new head coach on a crappy team can make you look sorry. Even the great ones took their lumps at some point. I have major concerns with him, too, but I don't want to fall into this line of thinking that change for its own sake is always the right answer. Give me a realistic candidate that would sign on with Denver that is clearly better, I'll almost certainly sign on. When we think some white knight unproven coach is going to save the franchise we are often more hopeful than correct.

Except he didnt inherit a crappy team.

[Northman]

The Broncos are not a crappy team, that is just absolute BS. They are underachieving because the HC cannot gameplan to save his life and the few wins we have gotten this year have been in spite of him, not because of him. That fact i even have to point that out is just as baffling as watching our HC on Sundays. Good grief...

[Poet]

That was a quality post, I agree in whole. This part in particular resonates.

But what if that is the best Elway has? Then do you look to replace Elway? Then who fills the Elway vacuum to offset the Trust? It ain't pretty.

For the life of me, I don't understand why Stanford alum Elway isn't using the Stanford VR suite that Mahomes and Reid are using. You could read a lot into this, or nothing at all. Are they married to Sundquist's nascent project? Did Elway and STRIVR have friction? Is he being too old school and narrow-minded, like he is when he evaluates his QBs? This line of thought epitomizes my concerns about Elway.

I need to mull this over.

Elway drafts better than he's given credit for, and as dumb as it sounds I like some of his misses, because they were great picks that didn't pan out. All you can do is draft well and hope it pans out. Ray was a great gamble - great production as a rookie, never went backwards regarding character issues...just got injured and lost playing time at a place of strength. DeMarcus Walker had a flat out first round grade to his name. Injuries and, imo, bad coaching, have kept him off the field. Just because it didn't work out didn't mean it was the wrong pick.

I say that above to give Elway's drafting a boost because I think we shit on it too much.

If that's the best Elway has, I don't know. I don't think it can be because he's rumored to be looking at innovative college coaches because he likes/appreciates the direction the league is going in. The trust thing messes up everything. I don't believe in sacred cows. Nor do I believe in a person is fired it means they were never any good, or couldn't be good again. I think it means the situation has changed. If Elway was fired, a team that could use him as a GM exists. Elway as a Jets GM makes sense because that team spends money like crazy, or has in the past, and players go there just for the market. That's one scenario that plays to his strengths perfectly. Elway in Buffalo...that'd be awful...mostly because it's Buffalo.

My concern with Elway is that he does need to draft a bit better. He does need to play a little less hardball financially. And he does need to go all in on a QB. His plans have been half-baked for years, and I've been saying that since Kubiak retired. He has a general direction, but his plans coming to fruition show that the plan isn't really hardset.

[Hawgdriver]

Oh my.....

He's no Bill Walsh. But he's not the scrub you all want him to be.

I don't see Elway finding the next brilliant football mind for the same reasons he can't find a good QB. Until someone with some chops is holding court in those meetings I don't see why 8-8 VJ isn't about as good a coach as we can expect.

I don't see VJ adding value relative to the average HC, but he still has the locker room, or did until after SF.

These next couple of games will be revealing--does the team quit, or do they fight?

[Northman]

He's no Bill Walsh. But he's not the scrub you all want him to be.



No, just stop..... just stop dude.

[Hawgdriver]

The Broncos are not a crappy team, that is just absolute BS. They are underachieving because the HC cannot gameplan to save his life and the few wins we have gotten this year have been in spite of him, not because of him. That fact i even have to point that out is just as baffling as watching our HC on Sundays. Good grief...

Wait...so if we had production from the QB, you think we win those games against the Rams and Chiefs?

[Hawgdriver]

Except he didnt inherit a crappy team.

Eh, crappy QB.

[Poet]

He's no Bill Walsh. But he's not the scrub you all want him to be.

I don't see Elway finding the next brilliant football mind for the same reasons he can't find a good QB. Until someone with some chops is holding court in those meetings I don't see why 8-8 VJ isn't about as good a coach as we can expect.

I don't see VJ adding value relative to the average HC, but he still has the locker room, or did until after SF.

These next couple of games will be revealing--does the team quit, or do they fight?

I love your growth mindset.

I think he's bad. He can't handle challenges. He's not good at clock management. His decision last week to kick a FG and not go for it was objectively bad. But he's shown growth, to an extent in game planning, has improved on clock management and challenges, etc.

You see an unfinished product. One that could come to full fruition.

I'm within two standard deviations of your position. I think he could get another HC gig in a few years and be a good coach. I think he needs a lot more seasoning and experience as a coordinator before he can HC again. He's a poorly cooked steak - we saw the top part of it was 'done' and forgot to check the middle.

But I do believe it is imperative that we move on.

[Poet]

Eh, crappy QB.

Keenum was a death sentence. Death by Keeeeeeeenuuuuuum.

[Northman]

Eh, crappy QB.
'
If the QB was the entire team i would agree but since coaching is a big part of that its not all on Keenum at this point.

[Poet]

'
If the QB was the entire team i would agree but since coaching is a big part of that its not all on Keenum at this point.

Also fair to point out.

[Hawgdriver]

His decision last week to kick a FG and not go for it was objectively bad.

Was it really? I wonder what the analytics would say. Given the situation at CB. If you can evidence this I'd appreciate it. Not a rhetorical justification, but an objective measure, as you suggest.

[Hawgdriver]

'
If the QB was the entire team i would agree but since coaching is a big part of that its not all on Keenum at this point.

Def not. But with a value-adding QB I expect we are singing VJ's praises for getting the best of the league's top teams.

[Northman]

I love your growth mindset.

I think he's bad. He can't handle challenges. He's not good at clock management. His decision last week to kick a FG and not go for it was objectively bad. But he's shown growth, to an extent in game planning, has improved on clock management and challenges, etc.

You see an unfinished product. One that could come to full fruition.

I'm within two standard deviations of your position. I think he could get another HC gig in a few years and be a good coach. I think he needs a lot more seasoning and experience as a coordinator before he can HC again. He's a poorly cooked steak - we saw the top part of it was 'done' and forgot to check the middle.

But I do believe it is imperative that we move on.


The problem with his views on "growth" is there actually hasnt been any growth. Growth would be beating teams that you are supposed to beat like the Niners and Browns. Growth means showing improvement and that has not happened. The fact that he automatically has us at 8-8 to finish the year is hilarious. We may just end up losing the last 2 games because of VJ's incompetence. its like watching any young QB who comes into the league, you will see them struggle but you will also see flashes of brilliance that gives you hope of the growth that is to come. I dont see any of that with Vance on any level.

[Hawgdriver]

The problem with his views on "growth" is there actually hasnt been any growth. Growth would be beating teams that you are supposed to beat like the Niners and Browns. Growth means showing improvement and that has not happened. The fact that he automatically has us at 8-8 to finish the year is hilarious. We may just end up losing the last 2 games because of VJ's incompetence. its like watching any young QB who comes into the league, you will see them struggle but you will also see flashes of brilliance that gives you hope of the growth that is to come. I dont see any of that with Vance on any level.

I think you don't like him personally and have made up your mind. Most VJ critiques come off as ad hominem, but they are based on his miscues. All HCs, especially inexperienced ones, make mistakes. I see improvements from the beginning of last year. Is it enough to justify keeping him around? Probably not, this is an impatient business, the NFL.

[Northman]

Def not. But with a value-adding QB I expect we are singing VJ's praises for getting the best of the league's top teams.

Disagree.

If you are saying we need to hand VJ an allstar roster just so he can succeed as a HC than ANY HC in the NFL is hot garbage and guys like BB actually suck as HC"s because of their QB's or roster. It goes beyond the roster and is far more detailed oriented than that. The Rams have a lot of talent but they also have a very creative HC leading them. If going by your logic here you would be saying that VJ is just as good as McVey if you were to put VJ in McVey's place in LA. If you actually believe that than that is certainly your prerogative but i dont believe for a moment that VJ could do the same as McVey in LA. Nothing ive seen from VJ when game planning or even play calling remotely makes me think he would have the same success there even with the talent that is there.

[Poet]

Was it really? I wonder what the analytics would say. Given the situation at CB. If you can evidence this I'd appreciate it. Not a rhetorical justification, but an objective measure, as you suggest.

I don't have this data. I overstated my position.

I should rephrase - because we were giving the ball back to a team that had some passing success against us, and because we had no CB depth and had safeties at CB because of injury, and because of their timeouts, which we had zero, a FG was a weaker move. Drastically. Prima Facie. Normally I'd try to find some of that data, and if it said I was wrong I'd just post it and eat it. But I'm too lazy today to search. So I'm just going to concede to an overstatement and reframe in a way that lets me be lazy as ****.

[Hawgdriver]

Yeah, the Kittle thing is a lot like the Engram thing. That was very disappointing and one of the main reasons I won't be sad when he's gone. There is probably a personnel argument to be made in his defense, and Kyle Shanahan is quite good at his job, but still...

[Hawgdriver]

I don't have this data. I overstated my position.

I should rephrase - because we were giving the ball back to a team that had some passing success against us, and because we had no CB depth and had safeties at CB because of injury, and because of their timeouts, which we had zero, a FG was a weaker move. Drastically. Prima Facie. Normally I'd try to find some of that data, and if it said I was wrong I'd just post it and eat it. But I'm too lazy today to search. So I'm just going to concede to an overstatement and reframe in a way that lets me be lazy as ****.

I bet you are right, but there's enough uncertainty that I'm curious.

[Northman]

I think you don't like him personally and have made up your mind. Most VJ critiques come off as ad hominem, but they are based on his miscues. All HCs, especially inexperienced ones, make mistakes. I see improvements from the beginning of last year. Is it enough to justify keeping him around? Probably not, this is an impatient business, the NFL.

Of course i dont like him personally, he's a bad coach. Ive seen what ive needed to see from him in 2 years and i dont see anything that you are even talking about.

[Poet]

I just love talking football with a Viking, and a pilot.

[Hawgdriver]

Disagree.

If you are saying we need to hand VJ an allstar roster just so he can succeed as a HC than ANY HC in the NFL is hot garbage and guys like BB actually suck as HC"s because of their QB's or roster. It goes beyond the roster and is far more detailed oriented than that. The Rams have a lot of talent but they also have a very creative HC leading them. If going by your logic here you would be saying that VJ is just as good as McVey if you were to put VJ in McVey's place in LA. If you actually believe that than that is certainly your prerogative but i dont believe for a moment that VJ could do the same as McVey in LA. Nothing ive seen from VJ when game planning or even play calling remotely makes me think he would have the same success there even with the talent that is there.

I agree that McVey is probably the better coach.

[Northman]

There is a difference between taking a team like Browns and needing more time to build a franchise from the ground up vs inheriting a SB team and being unable to even make the playoffs. The Broncos are simply not a bad team, they still have a lot of talent there.

[Northman]

I agree that McVey is probably the better coach.

Ok, but going by your logic is it really McVey or is it the QB?

[Valar Morghulis]

Following this discussion has been fun.

My take....i have seen zero growth from VJ. He was an inexperienced/bad DC and should never have been given the job in Denver. His continual miscues should not be tolerated anywhere, let alone Denver.

We might have beat the chiefs with better qb play, but the Rams won it comfortably. The Texans, the browns we lost due to his decisions. The Jets and niners berhauser he can't gamelan or make changes on the fly.

I see literally no redeeming qualities

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

One thing I like about VJ (I know this is hard to quantify) is the team plays hard for him.

[Poet]

Ok, but going by your logic is it really McVey or is it the QB?

Both. Goff had the talent to get drafted where he did. But he was rough as a rookie for reasons of bad surrounding talent and a out of touch coach. McVey comes in, gives him a strong scheme, and the GM gets a HoF LT, and signs half the FAs ever...but it worked out well in comparison to Philly (with Vick) or Washington (lol Snyder in 2007).

McVey has Gurley and the offense really is predicated upon him, but Goff carries more than his fair share. McVey's true genius is that he is slowly bringing Goff along.

I love him.

[Northman]

Following this discussion has been fun.

My take....i have seen zero growth from VJ. He was an inexperienced/bad DC and should never have been given the job in Denver. His continual miscues should not be tolerated anywhere, let alone Denver.

We might have beat the chiefs with better qb play, but the Rams won it comfortably. The Texans, the browns we lost due to his decisions. The Jets and niners berhauser he can't gamelan or make changes on the fly.

I see literally no redeeming qualities

There are many glaring issues with VJ's decision making and the biggest one was when he came out recently saying that Keenum need to let it fly when that is the worse thing you can do with this particular QB. When Denver was winning ballgames we were doing it by not turning the ball over and having Keenum be a game manager. So how it is this HC could not understand that concept is pretty telling for me as a fan.

[Northman]

Both. Goff had the talent to get drafted where he did. But he was rough as a rookie for reasons of bad surrounding talent and a out of touch coach. McVey comes in, gives him a strong scheme, and the GM gets a HoF LT, and signs half the FAs ever...but it worked out well in comparison to Philly (with Vick) or Washington (lol Snyder in 2007).

McVey has Gurley and the offense really is predicated upon him, but Goff carries more than his fair share. McVey's true genius is that he is slowly bringing Goff along.

I love him.

I agree but that really wasnt what Hawg was getting at with his post. He wants to put the blame solely on Keenum and you just cant do that no matter how easy it might be.

[Poet]

I agree but that really wasnt what Hawg was getting at with his post. He wants to put the blame solely on Keenum and you just cant do that no matter how easy it might be.

Then I ****** up! I made a mistake! I pooped my pants!

[Hawgdriver]

Ok, but going by your logic is it really McVey or is it the QB?

Ok, I'm back from sending out Christmas cards. Hope everyone is enjoying the holidays!

Goff is probably better than Keenum. I haven't watched enough Rams to know for sure, but his numbers are solid.

The main thing I see as his redeeming quality is that he has persevered rather than wilted. I don't see him as the speed-chess champ, but he runs a steady ship and demands respect. I think he's an average coach.

Those who are saying he's worthless and has no redeeming HC qualities are being unfair and letting their personal passion for Broncos success get in the way of clear thinking. It's too much emotion.

Do you make a change when you don't have a championship HC? QB? CB? Assistant QB coach? etc...

Yes, if you find an improvement and can afford it.

[Hawgdriver]

I agree but that really wasnt what Hawg was getting at with his post. He wants to put the blame solely on Keenum and you just cant do that no matter how easy it might be.

You make it sound like I stated VJ doesn't deserve blame. Not so.

I see hyperbole in your statements that he can't plan, win games, so forth.

Yet he was within a few plays from a plus-QB of winning games that would change this narrative.

[Northman]

Ok, I'm back from sending out Christmas cards. Hope everyone is enjoying the holidays!

Goff is probably better than Keenum. I haven't watched enough Rams to know for sure, but his numbers are solid.

The main thing I see as his redeeming quality is that he has persevered rather than wilted. I don't see him as the speed-chess champ, but he runs a steady ship and demands respect. I think he's an average coach.

Those who are saying he's worthless and has no redeeming HC qualities are being unfair and letting their personal passion for Broncos success get in the way of clear thinking. It's too much emotion.

Do you make a change when you don't have a championship HC? QB? CB? Assistant QB coach? etc...

Yes, if you find an improvement and can afford it.

While i agree with you finding a good HC is difficult i dont think you can lock yourself into a HC who isnt showing improvement or living up to expectations which we have going on here with VJ. If i saw in him what you do i would feel differently i just dont see it though.

[Northman]

Yet he was within a few plays from a plus-QB of winning games that would change this narrative.

Was he? Or was an experienced talented team a few plays from winning games? Like i said, i think the team won a lot of games this year in spite of him, not because of him.

[Nomad]

:car: You guys are too serious for Christmas weekend :car:





my driveby :D

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Was he? Or was an experienced talented team a few plays from winning games? Like i said, i think the team won a lot of games this year in spite of him, not because of him.
Denver’s talent level is by no means more than above average. The secondary is ok. The mlb’s are below average. The wr Corp this year is average. The offensive line is average.

The only units that are “good” are the d line, linebackers, and running backs.

[Hawgdriver]

While i agree with you finding a good HC is difficult i dont think you can lock yourself into a HC who isnt showing improvement or living up to expectations which we have going on here with VJ. If i saw in him what you do i would feel differently i just dont see it though.

You have to squint. Or maybe that's just my own hopefulness.

[Hawgdriver]

:car: You guys are too serious for Christmas weekend :car:





my driveby :D

Yeah, fo real. Denver has some good teams these days, Broncos are the #4 pro team...crazy.

I'd like a nap right now.

From the sound of it, all this is moot. Denver is moving on from VJ. Hope they ace the next hire and sort out their kingdom.

[Hawgdriver]

Was he? Or was an experienced talented team a few plays from winning games? Like i said, i think the team won a lot of games this year in spite of him, not because of him.

I've determined that we have different perspectives on VJ.

[Northman]

:car: You guys are too serious for Christmas weekend :car:



my driveby :D


I wont be serious anymore once Vaj is fired.. Plus, ill enjoy my xmas anyway. Presents > 2018 Broncos

[Nomad]

Yeah, fo real. Denver has some good teams these days, Broncos are the #4 pro team...crazy.

I'd like a nap right now.

From the sound of it, all this is moot. Denver is moving on from VJ. Hope they ace the next hire and sort out their kingdom.

I was just kidding around, Hawg. I don't have an answer, or idea. Broncos will get back to being the Broncos, and winning. A little adversity makes a person humble.

[Hawgdriver]

I was just kidding around, Hawg. I don't have an answer, or idea. Broncos will get back to being the Broncos, and winning. A little adversity makes a person humble.

Yeah, I'll be here to cheer them on. Bienemy is the hot name right now.

[Poet]

I was just kidding around, Hawg. I don't have an answer, or idea. Broncos will get back to being the Broncos, and winning. A little adversity makes a person humble.

We are serious men, Nomad.

Super srs.

[Hawgdriver]

We are serious men, Nomad.

Super srs.

Super duper.

[aberdien]

I just can't believe Mr. Nostalgia didn't pick Shanny Jr over VJ.

[Poet]

I always wondered if Shanny Jr. would be able to live up to his father's legacy in Denver. If he left here after x amount of years with a .600 winning percentage, but no rings, would people be satisfied with him?

It's hard to live up to your father's legacy.

[Nomad]

I just can't believe Mr. Nostalgia didn't pick Shanny Jr over VJ.

Curious.....would Jr get a little more forgiveness if he struggled with the Broncos like Joseph has?

[aberdien]

I always wondered if Shanny Jr. would be able to live up to his father's legacy in Denver. If he left here after x amount of years with a .600 winning percentage, but no rings, would people be satisfied with him?

It's hard to live up to your father's legacy.

But for a guy who seems to love nostalgia and retreads, that seemed like a sure decision for Elway.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I just can't believe Mr. Nostalgia didn't pick Shanny Jr over VJ.

There were rumors he wanted personel say.

[Poet]

Curious.....would Jr get a little more forgiveness if he struggled with the Broncos like Joseph has?

Probably because of his name.

Even if it was the exact same literal situation, down to dotted I's and crossed T's.

[aberdien]

Curious.....would Jr get a little more forgiveness if he struggled with the Broncos like Joseph has?

I think so because of the name.

And because I doubt the team would be making certain mistakes that are caused by poor coaching.

[Nomad]

I think so because of the name.

And because I doubt the team would be making certain mistakes that are caused by poor coaching.

Jr has made his mistakes.

[aberdien]

Jr has made his mistakes.

I just don't think there are probably as many coaching mistakes, ie players making boneheaded mistakes that coaches should have corrected.

Plus Jr has a much shittier roster than we do.

[Nomad]

I just don't think there are probably as many coaching mistakes, ie players making boneheaded mistakes that coaches should have corrected.

Plus Jr has a much shittier roster than we do.

It's all good. Jr had a better teacher than Joseph.

[LawDog]

Let’s start a conspiracy theory that Ellis’ obvious disdain for Mike S trickled down on Kyle S, and so he put his thumb on the scales against giving Jr a fair consideration.

[Davii]

I just can't believe Mr. Nostalgia didn't pick Shanny Jr over VJ.

How much of the coaching decision was Elway?

If the recent rumors are true would Ellis downvote Shanny Jr. because of his dislike for Sr?

[MOtorboat]

I don’t want to rain on the parade here, but Vance Joseph 11-19 as head coach. Kyle Shanahan 10-20.

[Poet]

I don’t want to rain on the parade here, but Vance Joseph 11-19 as head coach. Kyle Shanahan 10-20.

This was his big year and his team imploded due to injuries. He also had Jimmy G looking like a great QB. There was reason to be EXCITED.

We've seen nothing of that sort from VJ. When the team was playing well on a win streak what could we point to that had his fingerprints on it?

[Simple Jaded]

There were rumors he wanted personel say.

So, Jimmy Garapolo and no Keenum?

Who could blame him?

[Simple Jaded]

I was just kidding around, Hawg. I don't have an answer, or idea. Broncos will get back to being the Broncos, and winning. A little adversity makes a person humble.

Humble and Broncos FO are two roads that will never cross.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

So, Jimmy Garapolo and no Keenum?

Who could blame him?

Bill B?

[Poet]

Bill B?

Brady really ****** that team when he forced that trade. And I thought Favre was a petulant child. Lulz.

[Nomad]

Humble and Broncos FO are two roads that will never cross.

I hope. How's it going, pal? We're gonna kick some Raiders ass on Monday night.

[Simple Jaded]

I hope. How's it going, pal? We're gonna kick some Raiders ass on Monday night.

You say that like it’s a good thing.

[BeefStew25]

The Broncos are not a crappy team, that is just absolute BS. They are underachieving because the HC cannot gameplan to save his life and the few wins we have gotten this year have been in spite of him, not because of him. That fact i even have to point that out is just as baffling as watching our HC on Sundays. Good grief...

Our grocery shopper sucks.

[Hawgdriver]

I don’t want to rain on the parade here, but Vance Joseph 11-19 as head coach. Kyle Shanahan 10-20.

Is any of it related to the QB?

[Simple Jaded]

I don’t think there’s any question as to which is the better HC candidate.

[MOtorboat]

Is any of it related to the QB?

Because Joseph has had stellar quarterback play?

[Simple Jaded]

https://www.neworleanssaints.com/team/coaches-roster/pete-carmichael

React to me!

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Carmichael_Jr.

React to me!

Uh......

[Hawgdriver]

Because Joseph has had stellar quarterback play?

I don't know how much you can make of it, but KS's record with JG is 6-2, 4-18 without. Joseph has had, what...bottom 3d in the league QB play? bottom 10%? Worst? This is not to give the dude a pass, but help paint a better picture.

[MOtorboat]

I don't know how much you can make of it, but KS's record with JG is 6-2, 4-18 without. Joseph has had, what...bottom 3d in the league QB play? bottom 10%? Worst? This is not to give the dude a pass, but help paint a better picture.

Maybe I misinterpreted your original post.

My point is that Broncos fans quite often opine about the decision to hire Joseph over Shanahan and I’m just not sure that would have made this team any better or put them in a better position for the future.

[Simple Jaded]

Uh......

Shut ... shut ... shut’cher mouth.

Try it now.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

https://www.neworleanssaints.com/team/coaches-roster/pete-carmichael

React to me!

Yawn.

[Hawgdriver]

Maybe I misinterpreted your original post.

My point is that Broncos fans quite often opine about the decision to hire Joseph over Shanahan and I’m just not sure that would have made this team any better or put them in a better position for the future.

Agree.

[Simple Jaded]

Yawn.

I’ll take that as an enthusiastic meh.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I’ll take that as an enthusiastic meh.

What about Lombardi? He seems like a smart dude.

[Simple Jaded]

What about Lombardi? He seems like a smart dude.

He’d be a re-tread as he was a failed OC in Detroit iirc, and it’s telling to me that Payton went with Carmichael over Lombardi when Marrone left.

[Simple Jaded]

https://www.redskins.com/team/coaches-roster/wes-phillips

https://www.49ers.com/team/coaches-roster/mike-lafleur

As OC to Shanatan.

React to me?

[Gimpygod]

Cam Newton is also a drama “Queen”. fixed

[Northman]

Jr has made his mistakes.

Of course he has but then he also took a much inferior team and beat the snot out of a more talented one in Denver so that says something.

[Northman]

Brady really ****** that team when he forced that trade. And I thought Favre was a petulant child. Lulz.

Watch yo self.....

[Rick]

Curious.....would Jr get a little more forgiveness if he struggled with the Broncos like Joseph has?

Depends. If he struggled the SAME way as in they lost, were not prepared and had obvious idiot coach decisions then yes, run him out of town too.

All losses are not treated equally.

[Davii]

Watch yo self.....

He's right about once every two weeks. That post was it.

[Northman]

He's right about once every two weeks. That post was it.

Watch yo self....

[GEM]

Watch yo self....

Brady's a bitch.

[Northman]

Brady's a bitch.

i forgive you my love.

[Cugel]

Of course he has but then he also took a much inferior team and beat the snot out of a more talented one in Denver so that says something.

He took a team playing it's backup QB, and not the first string backup either and they outcoached the Broncos at every turn. It was a schooling. Brutal out-schemed by a team that had backups all over the lineup due to a devastating series of injuries.

They had no excuse. The breakdowns were just shoddy play and shoddy coaching and shoddy preparation. Breakdowns all over.

Elway noticed and they showed him in the suite where he sits during home games and he's gesturing angrily at what he's watching on his monitor. He looked mad so that the TV crew momentarily switched to a shot of his reaction of disgust and anger.

I thought to myself at that moment "Vance is gone." We'll see in a couple weeks. He could sleep on it again and decide to stick with Vance one more year, but I highly doubt it.

[Northman]

He took a team playing it's backup QB, and not the first string backup either and they outcoached the Broncos at every turn. It was a schooling. Brutal out-schemed by a team that had backups all over the lineup due to a devastating series of injuries.

They had no excuse. The breakdowns were just shoddy play and shoddy coaching and shoddy preparation. Breakdowns all over.

Elway noticed and they showed him in the suite where he sits during home games and he's gesturing angrily at what he's watching on his monitor. He looked mad so that the TV crew momentarily switched to a shot of his reaction of disgust and anger.

I thought to myself at that moment "Vance is gone." We'll see in a couple weeks. He could sleep on it again and decide to stick with Vance one more year, but I highly doubt it.

Pretty much my thinking as well during and after that game.

[MOtorboat]

Of course he has but then he also took a much inferior team and beat the snot out of a more talented one in Denver so that says something.

Does Denver, without Harris, Thomas, Sanders, Garcia, Leary and Paradise, have more talent than San Francisco?

Because I’m thinking they don’t.

[turftoad]

Does Denver, without Harris, Thomas, Sanders, Garcia, Leary and Paradise, have more talent than San Francisco?

Because I’m thinking they don’t.

Sam Fran without Jimmy G, McKinnon, Garcon? Third string QB, RB and WR's.
Yes Denver had more talent on the field I think Mo.

[Northman]

Does Denver, without Harris, Thomas, Sanders, Garcia, Leary and Paradise, have more talent than San Francisco?

Because I’m thinking they don’t.

You are free to have that opinion sure.

[Northman]

Sam Fran without Jimmy G, McKinnon, Garcon? Third string QB, RB and WR's.
Yes Denver had more talent on the field I think Mo.

Agreed.

In fact, i cant high five that enough.

[MOtorboat]

Sam Fran without Jimmy G, McKinnon, Garcon? Third string QB, RB and WR's.
Yes Denver had more talent on the field I think Mo.

If all I could take was who was on that field, I’d take the 49ers line and receivers, their linebackers and their secondary. That leaves Denver’s pass rush, running back and let’s just call the quarterback a draw, because I’m not about to say anyone is worse than Keenum right now.

Sorry, Denver just doesn’t have that much talent right now, especially with the injuries.

I want Joseph gone as much as the next guy, but you won’t find me opining over any Shanahan.

[Northman]

Lmao

[Nomad]

Mullens is a pretty damn good QB. I wouldn't short change him with the third string label. He's played better than Keenum in the games that I've watched him. Between Jimmy G, Bearthard, and Mullens....I'd say SF is doing pretty good at the QB position.

[Northman]

Mullens is a pretty damn good QB. I wouldn't short change him with the third string label. He's played better than Keenum in the games that I've watched him. Between Jimmy G, Bearthard, and Mullens....I'd say SF is doing pretty good at the QB position.

Well hold the **** up. Scale it back.

While i agree i think Mullins is probably better than Keenum it doesnt change the 3rd string label and lack of experience on the field vs what Keenum has had. Furthermore, it only strengthens the argument that Shanahan has gotten more out of those players than VJ has with ours despite many of them being starters.

[Hawgdriver]

Until the SF game, how had Sua Cravens been playing? Cravens only played 20% of the snaps compared to Kittle's 70% (approx). Cravens was supposed to be our answer for this problem, right?

[Nomad]

Well hold the **** up. Scale it back.

While i agree i think Mullins is probably better than Keenum it doesnt change the 3rd string label and lack of experience on the field vs what Keenum has had. Furthermore, it only strengthens the argument that Shanahan has gotten more out of those players than VJ has with ours despite many of them being starters.

You do understand he's third string because of the depth at QB in SF.

[Northman]

You do understand he's third string because of the depth at QB in SF.

Are you saying he should be the starter? Are you implying he should have been a first round pick? I guess i dont follow your logic here.

[MOtorboat]

Lmao

So, where am I wrong? You want Staley or Bolles? Tomlinson over, hell I don’t even know who’s starting at LG for Denver right now? Kittle or LaCasse? Godwin, Garcon and Pettis or Sutton, Patrick and Hamilton?

You want Roby over Richard Sherman? Josey Jewel over Fred Warner?

Not me.

[Northman]

So, where am I wrong? You want Staley or Bolles? Tomlinson over, hell I don’t even know who’s starting at LG for Denver right now? Kittle or LaCasse? Godwin, Garcon and Pettis or Sutton, Patrick and Hamilton?

You want Roby over Richard Sherman? Josey Jewel over Fred Warner?

Not me.

Sherman has been getting owned just as much as Roby this year man. What games have you been watching? Lol

[MOtorboat]

Sherman has been getting owned just as much as Roby this year man. What games have you been watching? Lol

The same games as PFF.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/richard-sherman/6306
https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/bradley-roby/8666

Lol

[Nomad]

Are you saying he should be the starter? Are you implying he should have been a first round pick? I guess i dont follow your logic here.

Only comparing to Keenum, I believe he could win the job. I'm saying Lynch & Shanahan have done a good job with the QB position. Not many teams can look to their 3rd string, and have them play at a starting QB level.

[BeefStew25]

Mullens is a pretty damn good QB. I wouldn't short change him with the third string label. He's played better than Keenum in the games that I've watched him. Between Jimmy G, Bearthard, and Mullens....I'd say SF is doing pretty good at the QB position.

Statistically the best rookie QB.

[Northman]

Only comparing to Keenum, I believe he could win the job. I'm saying Lynch & Shanahan have done a good job with the QB position. Not many teams can look to their 3rd string, and have them play at a starting QB level.

To this we agree although it doesnt necessarily make Mullins a great QB. I think we are in agreement that that Shanahan has gotten more out of his guys than VJ has gotten out of ours who are legit starters right now.

[Northman]

The same games as PFF.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/richard-sherman/6306
https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/bradley-roby/8666

Lol

Thanks for confirming what i was saying. \m/

[MOtorboat]

Thanks for confirming what i was saying. \m/

You know 69 is higher than 60, right?

[Nomad]

To this we agree although it doesnt necessarily make Mullins a great QB. I think we are in agreement that that Shanahan has gotten more out of his guys than VJ has gotten out of ours who are legit starters right now.

I don't think anyone disputes this. But, all this talk about Shanahan, and what could of been. I'm not convinced Kyle was even gonna come here to begin with. Rumors of him wanting to go to SF were long before his interview in Denver.

[Northman]

You know 69 is higher than 60, right?

Oh, i thought you were saying that Sherman was like a 80 or 90. Congrats on a few points difference SMO. take a bow.

[Northman]

I don't anyone disputes this. But, all this talk about Shanahan, and what could of been. I'm not convinced Kyle was even gonna come here to begin with. Rumors of him wanting to go to SF were long before his interview in Denver.

For some of us it isnt about whether he was here or not. I dont even care about Kyle and whether he came here or not. My only point has been he has done a better coaching job with less in SF than VJ has here in Denver.

[MOtorboat]

Oh, i thought you were saying that Sherman was like a 80 or 90. Congrats on a few points difference SMO. take a bow.

I guess it’s just a personal preference that I want the 46th best cornerback instead of the 93rd.

Just me, though.

[turftoad]

So if Kyle is doing a better job with depleted rosters than Vance is, I would agree!

Kyle is the better coach.

[Northman]

So if Kyle is doing a better job with depleted rosters than Vance is, I would agree!

Kyle is the better coach.

Shhhhhh, that will be just our secret.

[Nomad]

Ok....Shanahan better than Joseph. Now, what? What does this prove? I still sense all this debate because fans feel Denver missed on Kyle, when in reality, he probably was always going to SF.

[turftoad]

Ok....Shanahan better than Joseph. Now, what? What does this prove? I still sense all this debate because fans feel Denver missed on Kyle, when in reality, he probably was always going to SF.

Agreed. It's all hindsight now but I believe Kyle would have came here first if offered the job.

[Northman]

Ok....Shanahan better than Joseph. Now, what? What does this prove? I still sense all this debate because fans feel Denver missed on Kyle, when in reality, he probably was always going to SF.

Nah, Kyle is used as a comparison because both were available at that time so thus why we are having this discussion. I think the general consensus is if Kyle can get more out of his team than VJ can his that maybe Kyle would have done a better job in Denver. As long as we can all agree that VJ sucks than all is right in Bronco world.

[UnderArmour]

That's all needs to be said about that comparison.

The question isn't "Is Shanahan the best coach in the NFL? Is he as good as Sean McVay for instance?" Well, no. Is he the best coach available? Maybe. Is he better than any "hot young coordinator who hasn't coached in the NFL before and has to learn?" HELL NO!

We just went down that route and it was a disaster twice, first with McMoron, and now with VJ. They have had some success with veteran experienced coaches: Fox, and Kubiak and previously Shanahan. They have had ZERO luck promoting the "new hotness" coordinator and having that work out (if you could call VJ the "new hotness" at the time of his hire - a lot of fans did not, but John Elway did. He was Jonesing for VJ for years - so much so they couldn't even switch their decision when Kyle Shanahan had a "great interview".

Can you and everyone else please stop using variations of the phrase "hot young coordinator" without actually naming them? They don't exist right now in the NFL. The "hot young coordinator" hired last year was Nagy, and he's in his 40s. There is no McVay or Shanahan on any of the 32 rosters right now. Please stop pretending like it is an option.

It's not.

Also, by the way the Broncos have done the whole "hot young coordinator" thing before. His name was Josh McDaniels.