PDA

View Full Version : At What Point Is This Elway's Fault?



Pages : [1] 2

Cugel
12-11-2018, 05:46 PM
I honestly don't know where I come down on the whole "this is all Elway's fault" discussion. At some point in repeated failure, there has to come a time of accountability for the GM. I don't know that I would support firing Elway after this season, but I would say that this season's disappointment has led me to question whether the time is fast approaching when Joe Ellis needs to seriously consider whether they keep John Elway as President of Football Operations and acting GM. At least a discussion has to take place at some point about Elway surrendering some of his GM powers.

I don't know how the rest of the fans feel about this.

I hate having to admit this because I was as ecstatic as any Broncos fan when Elway came here and we went to 2 SBs under Manning.

But, it's time. The last three years have been brutal and it's not even the records that are the most damning indictment of Elway's leadership.

Reporters asked him "why didn't you draft a QB in the 2018 draft?" at his post draft presser. His answer "We're not kicking Paxton to the curb."

So: The reason they didn't draft a QB in 2018 was NOT because Elway believed that Case Keenum could be the long term answer at QB! I admit I was wrong to think that he might be capable of being the long term answer. He quickly proved me wrong. BTW: Keenum's performance this year is statistically almost exactly what it was in MN. Only the Broncos don't have guys like Kyle Rudolph, Stephon Diggs or Adam Thielen so instead of 13-3, they are 6-7 going on 8-8 or 7-9.

Lots of other fans were guilty of drinking the Keenum cool-aid too. But, Elway NEVER was. When he signed Keenum called him "a bridge QB." But, a bridge to what?

As it turned out, Elway's plan was "a bridge to Paxton Lynch" whom he idiotically refused to admit was trash Every single fan, sportswriter, NFL GM, casual observer could see in April 2018 that Paxton was trash, and would always be trash. There was no point in planning around him.

After Paxton inevitably flamed out, they just went to Chad Kelly. Who also dropped out of the league like a stone due to congenital stupidity leaving them with "a bridge to nowhere."

See, if they drafted a developmental QB, then that guy would compete with Paxton, and they'd have to "kick Paxton to the curb." Obviously so, since Paxton could never out-compete anybody, not even Trevor Siemian.

So, because of Elway's stupidity, they were stuck without a long term plan at QB. They just wasted another year of Von Miller and Chris Harris and Derek Wolfe's careers.

Chad Kelly might have been the fan favorite until his bout of congenital idiocy, but Elway never believed in him as the long term answer. That was always Paxton right up till the moment when Paxton finally crashed out of the league.

That's just point #1 of the "It's really all Elway's fault!"

Point #2 is the horrible draft classes of 2015-2017. You all know that sad story filled with idiotic busts like wasting a 2nd round pick on Carlos Henderson. "He's athletic!" or Brenden Langley who they finally got on the field last game. You saw the result and it wasn't pretty.

Point #3 was hiring Vance Joseph instead of Kyle Shanahan.

Point #4 was refusing to fire Vance Joseph at the end of last season.

Point #5 was refusing to keep Wade Phillips as defensive coordinator and insisting on promoting Joe Woods instead. That wasn't VJ's choice. Elway was promoting Joe Woods before they even hired VJ. Joseph was basically stuck with Elway's choices for assistant coaches last year. After the 5-11 disaster VJ got the chance to get rid of a bunch of them starting with OC Mike McCoy. (Vance's choice Bill Musgrave was not any better of course).

Point #6 was getting rid of Aqib Talib for a pack of chewed Slim-Jims. How much could they have used Talib now that Chris Harris is out for the season, and Roby has been repeatedly browned to a nice crispy crust on both sides and you've got Yiadom as the #2 CB?

I suppose that one could argue that letting Trevor Siemian become your starter was point #7, but that could be blamed also on Vance Joseph. Reportedly Vance wanted no part of naming Paxton as starter so he was stuck with Siemian. Elway would not have permitted Vance to draft another QB and just "kick Paxton to the curb" at any point before August 2018. It sure as Hell wasn't VJ who was insisting on "not kicking Paxton to the curb."

There are other points, but I'll stop now.

I'm not calling for Elway to be fired at the end of the season, but I do think he has to be on the hot-seat after the last 3 miserable seasons of repeated failure and failure to find a franchise QB after repeated attempts.

What do you guys think?

Northman
12-11-2018, 06:11 PM
He brought a championship to Denver so for me personally he has at least 3 more years to right the ship long term. If we are still failing to win and get back to the playoffs then it will be time to probably move on.

BroncoJoe
12-11-2018, 06:25 PM
tl;dr

Plus, it's Cugel.

BroncoNut
12-11-2018, 07:09 PM
how dare you.

Tbolt
12-11-2018, 08:07 PM
I always thought Elway didn't like how much credit Wade got for SB50, and that led to his departure. Elway is a big time egomaniac. Which is why we have VaJ as coach instead of someone with some actual say.

His drafts, on a whole, have sucked. This year was a different approach and finally paying some dividends. Still loves him some broken TE's though.

Hands were tied at QB. They wanted Baker. Baker went #1. I think he liked Allen, but not with Chubb on the board. Paxton was a 1st round investment. I can see giving him one more TC to move up to backup. Couldn't hold it against Chad I just ate what was in the fridge and took a nap on your couch Kelly. The fact that Paxton sucks soooooo bad, he hasn't been signed ANYWHERE, but Mark Sanchez has, is pretty telling.

I am not saying fire Elway, but he needs to bring in a top flight coach and back the hell off.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-11-2018, 08:25 PM
Ultimately, everything is his responsibility so he shares in the fault. Elway has fallen prey to some good old nepotism/good old boy favoritism and it has cost him and this team. There are 2 people directly responsible and have the biggest impact for the product on the field each week and they have failed him. VJ and Keenum are those people. Why, you ask, are VJ and Keenum even here? Because of nepotism.

Elway feels he owes a lot of his success to Kubiak (both as a player and GM) so when Kubiak stepped down as HC for health reasons, Elway gave him a FO job. Kubiak used that opportunity to replace himself and his wash out 7th round pick QB with two previous “Kubiak guys” in VJ and then Keenum and because he trusted Kubiak’s judgement Elway went along. Obviously Elway was so excited about the Keenum signing, he didn’t even know his name at the intro presser and referred to him as a “bridge” before he’d even played a snap for us. He seemed ready to shitcan VJ after last season but it is rumored he was told to retain him by Ellis.

The sad part is, this is a much more talented team than the one he inherited after the McDaniels era when he hired Fox and Co. The problem is, the football side has been mismanaged from the get go by VJ and his staff. They have some talent, they just suck at coaching to that talent’s strengths.

Elway is to blame here, but trusting in Kubiak is the reason we are in the current situation. I’m willing to give John the benefit of the doubt for a couple more years (this franchise has never won anything without his involvement), but he must do what is necessary. That starts with firing VJ, signing or drafting a Keenum replacement, and either firing Kubiak or just taking his choices in personnel with a grain of salt.

It made me very excited to hear that Kubes may go back to coaching (OC) next year. As long as it’s not the Broncos.

Hawgdriver
12-11-2018, 08:40 PM
how dare you.

Brazen effrontery!

Buff
12-11-2018, 09:16 PM
Who is going to fire John Elway? Joe Ellis? Until the team's ownership situation gets resolved, I think it's kind of a moot point - the job is probably his for as long as he wants it.

At the end of the day a GM's success is most directly tied to the head coach and QB. We are in pretty bad spots on both, so how he handles the next reboot is going to be critical to #7's legacy as GM.

OrangeHoof
12-11-2018, 09:20 PM
I still have a man-crush on the guy. He's responsible for some of the happiest moments of my life. He took a floundering franchise and quickly built it into a club that reached two Super Bowls and won one. OK, now he has to do it again without the best QB in NFL history falling into his lap. That's a lot tougher challenge. I've been disappointed with many of his drafts, even while Manning was still here but I was sold on Paxton Lynch too coming out of Memphis. He somehow devolved right before our eyes. The Joseph hire was mystifying. No idea why he thought Joseph was ready to be a head coach.

But Elway gets a long long leash from me. He still is "the franchise" to anyone who remembers back to the 80s and 90s. Perhaps he needs to get some better people around him - those with enough cache to talk him out of some of the bad personnel decisions.

underrated29
12-11-2018, 09:26 PM
All teams suck without a qb. Few teams find a good qb....elway gets no flack from me.


See the: browns, raiders, chiefs, rams, dolphins, bears, chiefs, Bengals, bucs, jets, Bill's as examples. (Years of sucktitude until they got or still are looking for, a qb. YEARS! we've gone 3.

Not many teams, if any ever, find themselves going from franchise qb to franchise qb. Colts are the ONLY example I can think of.

aberdien
12-11-2018, 10:03 PM
He will have to do something egregious to get fired, but 2 years after this year is his window until I seriously question his abilities to do his job.

Simple Jaded
12-11-2018, 10:34 PM
tl;dr

Plus, it's Cugel.

CuJoel

Simple Jaded
12-11-2018, 10:37 PM
Paxton Lynch should still be here and should be starting this entire season, I’ve seen Lynch play ... he can start the game off with six straight punts too. 3-and-outs? Ditto. Lead the league in Int’s? I believe in PL. Take a sack on 3rd down? Easy peezy.

As Paul Klee said, this organization is arrogant.

Slick
12-11-2018, 11:47 PM
You spent months telling us that Elway wasn’t going to tie up 30 million in CBs and several of us told you we should still keep Talib.

Poet
12-11-2018, 11:53 PM
You spent months telling us that Elway wasn’t going to tie up 30 million in CBs and several of us told you we should still keep Talib.

"He get hurt!"

Yeah, so did the guy who we used that cap space on, Veldheer. Veldheer with a more intensive injury history than Talib. And I know people will say that you subtract from a position of strength to address a position of weakness, but we're thin at CB, Veldheer didn't solidify anything, either. We substracted from a position of strength, evaporated more leadership, and we did it for a bum RT.

Cugel
12-12-2018, 12:20 AM
I always thought Elway didn't like how much credit Wade got for SB50, and that led to his departure. Elway is a big time egomaniac. Which is why we have VaJ as coach instead of someone with some actual say.

His drafts, on a whole, have sucked. This year was a different approach and finally paying some dividends. Still loves him some broken TE's though.

Hands were tied at QB. They wanted Baker. Baker went #1. I think he liked Allen, but not with Chubb on the board. Paxton was a 1st round investment. I can see giving him one more TC to move up to backup. Couldn't hold it against Chad I just ate what was in the fridge and took a nap on your couch Kelly. The fact that Paxton sucks soooooo bad, he hasn't been signed ANYWHERE, but Mark Sanchez has, is pretty telling.

I am not saying fire Elway, but he needs to bring in a top flight coach and back the hell off.

From what the Broncos beat-writers have written and said about the inside story in Dove Valley:

1. Wade wanted to be the highest paid DC, and Elway didn't want to keep him. He wanted to promote Joe Woods, who was the up and coming guy for a DC job for some reason that only the inbred minds of the NFL understand. For some reason, a guy becomes the "next hot commodity" and the reasons never make sense in retrospect. It's just a herd mentality or something. Hence Joe Woods and goodbye Wade!

2. The 2018 draft was largely due to the influence of Gary Kubiak whom Elway brought back this year to be the Draft Guru for offensive players. In years past you saw tons of idiot selections.

Just look at the 2017 draft, outside of Garrett Bolles:

3. Elway had a plan. He told the media what it was. He never intended to take a QB not any QB. That was because "we're not kicking Paxton to the curb." He announced this at his presser. If they drafted a 1st round QB they would have to release Paxton. There would be no point in keeping him at that point, since obviously, Keenum would start until the rookie QB was ready some time this season. Lynch would be totally supplanted.

Elway wasn't willing to do that, no matter how loudly the fans yelled for Paxton to be gone. His stupid obsession with proving himself right about his draft blunder lasted right up till August 2018 when every fan in Denver could see that Paxton was a bust at least 1 year prior to this, when he failed to win the job over a 7th rounder who wasn't great - Trevor. Not Elway though. He kept making excuses until Paxton failed to do anything in his 3rd preseason forcing Elway to finally agree to cut him.

And he fell straight out of the league for good. I don't think he even really wants to come back now. I think he realizes being an NFL QB is just a lot more work than he really wants to do.

Cugel
12-12-2018, 12:28 AM
You spent months telling us that Elway wasn’t going to tie up 30 million in CBs and several of us told you we should still keep Talib.

I said Elway wasn't going to do it. I didn't say I wouldn't do it. I was telling you what Elway was going to do, but their own NFL logic.

If I were an owner I'd do things very, very differently. For one thing I wouldn't give a damn about "current earnings" if my ownership interest was appreciating from $87 million to $2.5 billion. So, I could actually sign as many veterans as I wanted. You have to be careful not to hire veterans who suck and have to be cut, giving you a big cap hit.

But signing bonuses come out of current revenues. Signing bonuses are the way to get players and manage the cap too, because they are pro-rated over the life of the contract.

I wasn't against getting rid of DT, and you don't see me complaining about them trading him in mid season. I was not in favor of getting rid of Talib.

Mike
12-12-2018, 10:58 AM
He has some time, but trust is wearing thin. The only thing that changes my opinion on that is if he sticks with VJ past this year. He should have fired him last year, should have fired him at various points this year...if he isn't canned by 12/31/18 then I will have lost faith in Elway.

Cugel
12-12-2018, 11:37 AM
Who is going to fire John Elway? Joe Ellis? Until the team's ownership situation gets resolved, I think it's kind of a moot point - the job is probably his for as long as he wants it.

At the end of the day a GM's success is most directly tied to the head coach and QB. We are in pretty bad spots on both, so how he handles the next reboot is going to be critical to #7's legacy as GM.

I agree with you that Joe Ellis probably is unable to fire Elway because they are under threat of lawsuit from Beth and Brittany and Bill Bowlen over the Trust management.

This thread is for Broncos fans to express their opinions though. SHOULD Elway be fired? Should he just continue as is? Should he be told to appoint a permanent GM to handle player personnel? Remember that he wasn't the GM when he was appointed, he was President of Football Operations and they had a GM whom Elway got rid of.


Per Mike Klis of 9NEWS, the Denver Broncos' boss won't shake up the scouting or personnel departments, led by director of player personnel Matt Russell and senior advisor Gary Kubiak. A few teams such as the Texans and Raiders, Klis notes, are cleaning house in the wake of the 2018 draft, though those moves are typically made in the first year of new regimes.

The Broncos have no reason to fix what isn't broken, following a 10-player rookie class that's receiving league-wide acclaim. Several mainstream outlets praised Elway for landing arguably the best prospect in this year's draft, edge defender Bradley Chubb, and stealing wide receiver Courtland Sutton on Day 2, among other moves to fill his most glaring roster holes (RB Royce Freeman, CB Isaac Yiadom, ILB Josey Jewell, TE Troy Fumagalli).

Elway had a great draft, but a lot of that was because they brought in Gary Kubiak to handle offensive draft eval, and demoted Matt Russell to evaluating defense. Problem is that Kubiak is reported to want to get back into coaching again as an assistant coach (less stress for his heart health?)

If Kubiak were to leave that would be bad. They might go back to picking guys based on their athleticism rather than their football IQ and proven leadership. The guys they drafted this year were mostly team captains in college. That shows in the level of maturity and leadership on the field.

ShaneFalco
12-12-2018, 12:28 PM
Point #7 He cut chad kelly for sitting on a couch

Point #8 He though Mark Sanchez was an option at QB

Poet
12-12-2018, 12:44 PM
Point #7 He cut chad kelly for sitting on a couch

Point #8 He though Mark Sanchez was an option at QB

It wasn't for illegally entering someone else's residence? Just couch sitting?

Cugel
12-12-2018, 12:45 PM
Point #7 He cut chad kelly for sitting on a couch

Point #8 He though Mark Sanchez was an option at QB

Chad Kelly is facing criminal prosecution for breaking and entering is he not? NObody picked him up did they? I'd give you point #8 but Sanchez didn't get out of training camp before being cut.

Kelly was on thin ice when he came into the league, with a history of bone headed immature decisions like getting into an onfield brawl when he was sitting in the stands watching a game. His excuse for doing that was no excuse.

There were lots of other indications of being just an incurable bone-head. The idea was "now that he's in the NFL he's matured." And then we learn that he hasn't.

He gets no more chances in the NFL. I hope he goes to the Canadian league, and can turn his career around. Then maybe he gets another chance. But, maybe not. Right now, I'd be surprised to see any team invite him to training camp.

Dapper Dan
12-12-2018, 12:48 PM
It's his fault when we do well. It's his fault when we suck. He's the head honcho. That's how it works. Saying he's to blame doesn't mean I want him fired. It means he needs to do better.

Poet
12-12-2018, 12:51 PM
It's his fault when we do well. It's his fault when we suck. He's the head honcho. That's how it works. Saying he's to blame doesn't mean I want him fired. It means he needs to do better.

I never knew Chad Kelly was this important! That's why Shane's so mad.

Dapper Dan
12-12-2018, 12:53 PM
I never knew Chad Kelly was this important! That's why Shane's so mad.

He's a passionate man. I choose not to engage him when he's going full HAM.

Freyaka
12-12-2018, 12:58 PM
I don't think Elway's in any immediate danger of going anywhere. This draft class for sure helps his case, but he's gotta find something better at QB soon. Right now he's still coasting on SB 50, but that is wearing thin.

He needs to hit on whoever the next coach is. He needs to find a QB. He built an incredible defense, he needs to figure out a way to get that defense back on par.

He needs to get us back to the playoffs. If we don't make the playoffs again in the next three years, his seat starts getting toasty at that point.

I think Elway is absolutely to blame for a lot of where we are right now, but I don't think he's in a position where he needs to worry about a pink slip for a few more years.

underrated29
12-12-2018, 01:30 PM
He has some time, but trust is wearing thin. The only thing that changes my opinion on that is if he sticks with VJ past this year. He should have fired him last year, should have fired him at various points this year...if he isn't canned by 12/31/18 then I will have lost faith in Elway.

Elway wanted to fire VJ, but Ellis puled rank. Convinced him not to do so.

Northman
12-12-2018, 01:33 PM
Elway wanted to fire VJ, but Ellis puled rank. Convinced him not to do so.

Do you know this for certain or just theory?

Freyaka
12-12-2018, 01:34 PM
Elway wanted to fire VJ, but Ellis puled rank. Convinced him not to do so.

So many different accounts...Some people say Kubiak talked him out, some say Ellis pulled rank. Bottom line, VJ survived and he shouldn't have. Elway needs to course correct. Had we won out, I'd have said VJ stays, we didn't win out, even that would be something that could be overlooked if it wasn't for the way in which we lost (which was very typical for a VJ coached team in the last two years)

Freyaka
12-12-2018, 01:35 PM
Do you know this for certain or just theory?

It's never been 100 percent confirmed and as I mentioned above, some claim Kubiak talked him out, some claim Ellis did, for all we know Elway had a change of heart, there hasn't been official confirmation, just rumors.

underrated29
12-12-2018, 01:35 PM
Do you know this for certain or just theory?

Fact.

Freyaka
12-12-2018, 01:47 PM
Fact.

Source?

Dapper Dan
12-12-2018, 01:48 PM
Source?

underrated29

underrated29
12-12-2018, 01:52 PM
So many different accounts...Some people say Kubiak talked him out, some say Ellis pulled rank. Bottom line, VJ survived and he shouldn't have. Elway needs to course correct. Had we won out, I'd have said VJ stays, we didn't win out, even that would be something that could be overlooked if it wasn't for the way in which we lost (which was very typical for a VJ coached team in the last two years)

we know it was ellis.

underrated29
12-12-2018, 01:53 PM
Source?


Been confirmed by two separate guys on the mane. One is good friends with people on the fan. The other still has an inside guy. How do you think I am constantly getting our first round picks right year after year?

Freyaka
12-12-2018, 01:59 PM
underrated29


Been confirmed by two separate guys on the mane. One is good friends with people on the fan. The other still has an inside guy. How do you think I am constantly getting our first round picks right year after year?

https://media.giphy.com/media/8VrtCswiLDNnO/giphy.gif

underrated29
12-12-2018, 02:04 PM
You dont have to believe me. But it was Ellis.

Freyaka
12-12-2018, 02:14 PM
You dont have to believe me. But it was Ellis.

I don't doubt that it's possible or even likely, I just don't take friends who know friends as a credible source :D They may in fact be credible, but it's hard for the rest of us to take it as credible.

Northman
12-12-2018, 02:19 PM
You dont have to believe me. But it was Ellis.

Anyway your sources can give me Ellis location? I need to pay him a personal visit.

underrated29
12-12-2018, 02:40 PM
Anyway your sources can give me Ellis location? I need to pay him a personal visit.

Here you go:

13655 E Broncos Pkwy, Englewood, CO 80112

BroncoNut
12-12-2018, 07:00 PM
Brazen effrontery!
wreckless as all hell.

Simple Jaded
12-12-2018, 08:55 PM
People have been knowing it was **** Ellis for months now.

DenBronx
12-13-2018, 07:17 AM
Elway wanted to fire VJ, but Ellis puled rank. Convinced him not to do so.


I don’t buy it

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-13-2018, 11:31 AM
I don’t buy it

No need, the information is free!

Ground Control
12-15-2018, 01:11 AM
Sounds like you are looking for backers in your internal struggle to make Elway a bad guy.

I'm all in.

That doesn't mean I feel he should be canned, only that I feel it is stupid to give him a pass, over...and over....and over again.

I think VJ should be canned but I cannot consider myself a rational human being without first acknowledging that VJ got shafted in every way his first year. So bad that his second year was all about Elway trying to mend what he broke...In a haphazard fashion that was deeply driven by Elway's ego and the idea that he made the Broncos relevant, rather than the fact that he got lucky in signing Manning and most top QBs don't want to work for a stingy *******. Manning regretted working for a stingy *******. But what choice did he have, at the end of his career? Start all over again? Thus, Elway was a stingy ******* to Manning and we stumbled into a SB win. Plus, Wade Phillips. Whom Elway pushed away by by being an arrogant and stingy *******.

Basically, Elway is an arrogant and stingy *******. He is all that and also did a great job in the 2018 draft. He needs to do as good a job regarding next years draft and coaching situation. He's got it in him. Let's just hope he is an arrogant and stingy ******* that kills next years draft, brings in an offensive innovator AT HC, and understands that he was very much last years headline and that only gets him so much cred today.

Basically, yes. He should be on notice. I feel he has it in him. He's a big boy in a big boy game. It's all about him realizing that the game is so much bigger than him though, IMO.

It's a business, Elway. Perform or get left behind.

Tned
12-15-2018, 08:13 PM
Just two years ago, there were many on here criticizing Elway and pointing to the Raiders as a model of a rebuild that Elway should be following.

How's that Raiders' rebuild looking now?

How many SB wins or appearances or AFCCG appearances for all of the AFC west vs Broncos during Elway's tenure?

No doubt the failure to get a long term answer at QB is hurting Broncos, but the fact is that I would bet that Elway is in fairly rarified air in terms of success to start a career as a GM.

Poet
12-15-2018, 08:19 PM
Tned I'm inclined to agree with that. But, if I were to argue against it, it seems that Manning was the catalyst for not just the offense, but a huge portion of the free agents in general.

I was lambasted during that time because I thought a freak situation might have 'bloated' his start. But, those things did happen, and we just had a great class. I think the jury is still out on what Elway is as a GM. But, more positive than negative.

I view him as a good GM.

Edmonton Bronco Fan
12-15-2018, 08:31 PM
He's a pedestrian GM that should have a short leash for his questionable track record over the past 3 years.

At least he finally put together a good draft on the offensive side of the ball.

Poet
12-15-2018, 09:12 PM
Tned, to your point, imagine if oe of the QB's panned out.

It would radically change how we view the world.

Tned
12-15-2018, 09:18 PM
Tned, to your point, imagine if oe of the QB's panned out.

It would radically change how we view the world.

Exactly. He's had multiple good free agent signings, and drafted some real talent. The glaring hole is QB (and possibly VJ).

Poet
12-15-2018, 09:19 PM
Exactly. He's had multiple good free agent signings, and drafted some real talent. The glaring hole is QB (and possibly VJ).

I have a lot of love in my heart, Tned. I just want to shower a studly QB with it.

Tned
12-15-2018, 09:24 PM
I have a lot of love in my heart, Tned. I just want to shower a studly QB with it.

Love or McRib heartburn?

Poet
12-15-2018, 09:31 PM
Love or McRib heartburn?

Yes. I have an enlarged heart, so there's room.

Tned
12-15-2018, 10:43 PM
Yes. I have an enlarged heart, so there's room.

Some day a QB will arrive to be showered with the love.

Poet
12-15-2018, 10:44 PM
Some day a QB will arrive to be showered with the love.

And you will be like 'wtf King can be happy and positive about a QB'!?!??!?!

And we'll both be happy.

underrated29
12-15-2018, 10:51 PM
He's a pedestrian GM that should have a short leash for his questionable track record over the past 3 years.

At least he finally put together a good draft on the offensive side of the ball.

That pedestrian gm brought us the greatest offende in NFL history and then 2 years later one of the best defenses in NFL history. Hardly pedestrian.


I hate the "because manning" excuse too. How many offense in NFL history did the colts set with him? How many defenses? The colts won 1 sb with him? In his Hey Day!

We did it after he was broken down on running on fumes. Why did players suddenly come to denver and not the colts for nearly a decade? It's a dumb excuse that needs to be looked at more.


Also, 2 sb and 1 sb win in 8 years or so is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than pedestrian. What other gems would you take? Obviously there must be at least 16 better. I'd like to see a list.

sneakers
12-15-2018, 11:41 PM
never

Simple Jaded
12-15-2018, 11:57 PM
Bringing in PFM is Elway’s Mona Lisa, you cant separate that from his mistakes.

The problem with Elway came after the SB’s, he gave himself a bad reputation, apparently, and is struggling to recruit now because of that.

He’s never drafted well, though I truly feel his coaches share in that record, Ty Sampro/Gary Kubiak and Adam Gotsis/DeMarcus Walker/Bill Kollar are some good examples of that.

My current concern is the overcompensating, you can’t NEVER draft a QB because you/your coaches failed PL, you can’t populate your roster with Josey Jewel because ‘17 draft class had a sense of entitlement.

Simple Jaded
12-16-2018, 12:01 AM
Just two years ago, there were many on here criticizing Elway and pointing to the Raiders as a model of a rebuild that Elway should be following.

How's that Raiders' rebuild looking now?

How many SB wins or appearances or AFCCG appearances for all of the AFC west vs Broncos during Elway's tenure?

No doubt the failure to get a long term answer at QB is hurting Broncos, but the fact is that I would bet that Elway is in fairly rarified air in terms of success to start a career as a GM.

The Raiders got a franchise/cornerstone QB and pass rusher in one draft, I still contend that’s better than anything Elway has done in the draft.

I’d hire McKenzie yesterday if I had the chance.

Poet
12-16-2018, 12:04 AM
The Raiders got a franchise/cornerstone QB and pass rusher in one draft, I still contend that’s better than anything Elway has done in the draft.

I’d hire McKenzie yesterday if I had the chance.

The Raiders broke the bank on the offensive line, which is what a lot of people wanted us to do.

It's just hard, man.

Simple Jaded
12-16-2018, 12:08 AM
The Raiders broke the bank on the offensive line, which is what a lot of people wanted us to do.

It's just hard, man.

I’d take their OL over Denver’s, LG-C-RG, boom! Keep Bolles and sign Trent Brown, Championship.

Northman
12-16-2018, 12:12 AM
Denver's Olne is not that bad really. They havent been consistent but the bigger problem has been at QB.

Poet
12-16-2018, 12:14 AM
Denver's Olne is not that bad really. They havent been consistent but the bigger problem has been at QB.

Keenum has caused a lot of his sacks and QB hits. FWIW, Bolles had a solid game tonight.

PFM would make this line look like a bunch of all pros.

Tned
12-16-2018, 07:52 AM
The Raiders got a franchise/cornerstone QB and pass rusher in one draft, I still contend that’s better than anything Elway has done in the draft.

I’d hire McKenzie yesterday if I had the chance.

This is what I mean. Seriously, the grass isn't greener in Oakland.

Even with all the money on the offensive line and the franchise QB, etc., the Raiders have ONE winning season in the last 16 years, including this one and since Broncos fans declared them the example the Broncos should be following (after their ONE winning season in 14 years), they went 6-10 and are currently sitting at 3-10, so likely will only finish with 4 or 5 wins this year.

Tned
12-16-2018, 07:55 AM
Denver's Olne is not that bad really. They havent been consistent but the bigger problem has been at QB.

I'd say it's a mixed bag. I think they are better with this make shift line than the one they had to start the year. They simply aren't a line that is going to give a QB 3-4 second pockets consistently.

Look at teams we face week in and week out that completely stop Miller and Chubb all game but for a few times they slip through, but when we play almost anyone, on about half the plays our OL seem to do no more than slightly slow down the pass rush, forcing the QB to move up or out of the pocket.

Simple Jaded
12-16-2018, 02:41 PM
I know the Raiders record, I also know that they’re better at drafting then the Broncos.

MOtorboat
12-16-2018, 04:29 PM
Denver's Olne is not that bad really. They havent been consistent but the bigger problem has been at QB.

The line isn’t the problem this year and it hasn’t been the problem the last two.

I Like TDs
12-16-2018, 09:23 PM
My guess is that until the Ownership issue gets resolved, Elway gets a pass from a Stand-in Owner; Joe Ellis. So whatever they are doing now continues-- like it or not.

Cugel
12-17-2018, 12:15 AM
Just two years ago, there were many on here criticizing Elway and pointing to the Raiders as a model of a rebuild that Elway should be following.

How's that Raiders' rebuild looking now?

How many SB wins or appearances or AFCCG appearances for all of the AFC west vs Broncos during Elway's tenure?

No doubt the failure to get a long term answer at QB is hurting Broncos, but the fact is that I would bet that Elway is in fairly rarified air in terms of success to start a career as a GM.

I wouldn't trade Elway for Chucky, but the situations are not remotely comparable. The Raiders already flipped their fans off completely. They are going to Vegas and abandoning them. Hence they do not care a fig what the fans think and whether they come out to watch the Raiders between now and then. They are committed to dumping their entire fan base in Oakland.

So, they can do things like dump salary and their best players like Kalil Mack and Amari Cooper for draft picks that might pan out 2 years from now.

We won't know whether any of it will work out for the Raiders for several years now, but they are dumping NOW for next year and particularly the year after that - when they will be starting in Vegas. If their draft picks turn into players like Mack and Cooper, then fine. IF not, then not so fine.

But, we can't compare Denver to them.

Tned
12-17-2018, 07:41 AM
I wouldn't trade Elway for Chucky, but the situations are not remotely comparable. The Raiders already flipped their fans off completely. They are going to Vegas and abandoning them. Hence they do not care a fig what the fans think and whether they come out to watch the Raiders between now and then. They are committed to dumping their entire fan base in Oakland.

So, they can do things like dump salary and their best players like Kalil Mack and Amari Cooper for draft picks that might pan out 2 years from now.

We won't know whether any of it will work out for the Raiders for several years now, but they are dumping NOW for next year and particularly the year after that - when they will be starting in Vegas. If their draft picks turn into players like Mack and Cooper, then fine. IF not, then not so fine.

But, we can't compare Denver to them.

Flipping their fans off, as you put it, has nothing to do with my point.

The point was, as shown by the fools gold that was ONE good Raider's season, that they myth of total rebuild, is just that, a myth.

Fans like to talk about the need to just start over, do a total rebuild, and just a few years ago was using the Raiders as the example to prove their point. Of course they didn't focus on the 12 losing seasons in 14 years, and countless top 10 picks and still they lost. But, one winning season and it's, "see, we need to do what the Raider's did."

Winning in the NFL is hard. Getting to the playoffs is a big hurdle. Winning in the playoffs a bigger hurdle. Getting to the SB is nearly impossible, and very few clubs win a SB.

Has Elway made mistakes? Of course, every head office guy does. But, to so quickly discount five division titles, two SB appearances and one SB win, as "well, that's just because he lucked into Manning" is really not paying attention to the NFL landscape.

There are VERY few teams that are constantly in the playoffs for 6-10 year long stretches, but there are equally few teams that go through those major rebuilds Broncos fans yearn for that actually come out of it a SB contender.

The Broncos need a better QB. That has been their challenge and until they get one, they are going to struggle. Yes, that's on Elway, but again, look at the success rate on drafting QBs before you call for firing the GM.

The grass is not always greener on the other side in the NFL. In fact, it rarely is.

Mike
12-17-2018, 09:44 AM
The Broncos need a better QB. That has been their challenge and until they get one, they are going to struggle. Yes, that's on Elway, but again, look at the success rate on drafting QBs before you call for firing the GM.

The grass is not always greener on the other side in the NFL. In fact, it rarely is.

The team that is in place is talented enough to get to the playoffs. I think Keenum could be better under a better coach and better OC. Not a top QB, but servicable. If Elway can bring in a good HC with a good staff and have another good draft, this team will be in the playoffs next year.

Freyaka
12-17-2018, 09:47 AM
In light of recent news, I think the bigger question is how much blame should be put on Ellis... Seems he's sitting in the background meddling...

CoachChaz
12-17-2018, 10:08 AM
In light of recent news, I think the bigger question is how much blame should be put on Ellis... Seems he's sitting in the background meddling...

That article is quite telling. Which goes to show that the ownership issue needs to be dealt with as soon as possible, because the more light that is shed on the subject, the more I am inclined to believe this whole thing has been a power play by Ellis. To think we could be sitting here today with Shanny and Cousins (at a cheaper rate), is a clear sign that things need to change at the top. With both Ellis and Elway.

I get to deal with the inept ownership bullshit all baseball season...it's be nice not to have to endure it during football season as well.

MasterShake
12-17-2018, 10:11 AM
The team that is in place is talented enough to get to the playoffs. I think Keenum could be better under a better coach and better OC. Not a top QB, but servicable. If Elway can bring in a good HC with a good staff and have another good draft, this team will be in the playoffs next year.

Kind of where I am at. Whereas last year felt like an old tired team with a bunch of journeymen quarterbacks cycling through, this season feels like a youthful and talented team with no direction. I don't mind rebuilding, but have some fun while doing it and get creative. Lindsay, Sutton, Hamilton, Freeman, and Patrick are a solid core that will only get better but they are woefully underutilized right now.

Every day this coaching staff remains Elway loses capital with me, but he has A LOT built up due to a solid run since he's been here. I feel more optimistic now then I did at the end of McDaniels' tenure, and that has a lot to do with Elway steering the ship. I think he will do what must be done to get us back to where we need to be. It just sucks that VJ had to be part of that learning experience.

CoachChaz
12-17-2018, 10:20 AM
Kind of where I am at. Whereas last year felt like an old tired team with a bunch of journeymen quarterbacks cycling through, this season feels like a youthful and talented team with no direction. I don't mind rebuilding, but have some fun while doing it and get creative. Lindsay, Sutton, Hamilton, Freeman, and Patrick are a solid core that will only get better but they are woefully underutilized right now.

Every day this coaching staff remains Elway loses capital with me, but he has A LOT built up due to a solid run since he's been here. I feel more optimistic now then I did at the end of McDaniels' tenure, and that has a lot to do with Elway steering the ship. I think he will do what must be done to get us back to where we need to be. It just sucks that VJ had to be part of that learning experience.

Does Elway get the credit? Or should we give that to Manning? Based on the quality of drafts pretty much every season up until this one...and the quality of FA's brought in since Manning retired, I find it hard to give Elway any better than a "C" grade running this team. All of the quality moves he had only happened during the Manning years...when players knew they had a shot at a ring with a legend running the offense. Without a top 5 QB on the roster, Elway has been mediocre at best.

Freyaka
12-17-2018, 10:24 AM
Does Elway get the credit? Or should we give that to Manning? Based on the quality of drafts pretty much every season up until this one...and the quality of FA's brought in since Manning retired, I find it hard to give Elway any better than a "C" grade running this team. All of the quality moves he had only happened during the Manning years...when players knew they had a shot at a ring with a legend running the offense. Without a top 5 QB on the roster, Elway has been mediocre at best.

Elway gets credit... You can't just ignore the fact that it was the defense that Elway built with the coordinator that Elway hired that won the SB.... Manning doesn't play defense, nor does he coach it or scout for it and Manning while he did make the team more attractive didn't personally pick and sign the right free agents to build that defense.

Not to mention, the 2018 draft.

Ellis needs to be taken out of power, but hopefully whichever bowlen takes over leaves Elway in place a bit longer.

Davii
12-17-2018, 10:25 AM
Does Elway get the credit? Or should we give that to Manning? Based on the quality of drafts pretty much every season up until this one...and the quality of FA's brought in since Manning retired, I find it hard to give Elway any better than a "C" grade running this team. All of the quality moves he had only happened during the Manning years...when players knew they had a shot at a ring with a legend running the offense. Without a top 5 QB on the roster, Elway has been mediocre at best.

Without Elway there's no Manning. If Elway gets blame when shit falls apart he gets the same credit when things go right. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and all that.

How many "stacked" teams have we seen fail to live up to their potential?

Most of them is the answer. Manning made guys desire to play here but the right guys still had to be found and signed.

MasterShake
12-17-2018, 10:27 AM
Does Elway get the credit? Or should we give that to Manning? Based on the quality of drafts pretty much every season up until this one...and the quality of FA's brought in since Manning retired, I find it hard to give Elway any better than a "C" grade running this team. All of the quality moves he had only happened during the Manning years...when players knew they had a shot at a ring with a legend running the offense. Without a top 5 QB on the roster, Elway has been mediocre at best.

It's chicken or the egg at the point. Does Manning come here if not for Elway? Does a pick like Von Miller make the other FA in our Super Bowl run get people like Ware and Talib to sign here?

This is a QB starved league, no one is going to look good without a top-flight QB and obviously they just aren't falling off trees. Not only that, but you need a OC that works well with the QB. For example Musgrave was great for Carr, but not Keenum apparently. And has Flacco been the same since his historic run? Even QBs like Dak Prescott who seemed like the second coming are cooling off lately. I can forgive the lack of QB play right now, but not the lack of direction. I'm not saying Elway is without fault, just that he needs to spend what little capital he has left wisely.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-17-2018, 10:30 AM
That article is quite telling. Which goes to show that the ownership issue needs to be dealt with as soon as possible, because the more light that is shed on the subject, the more I am inclined to believe this whole thing has been a power play by Ellis. To think we could be sitting here today with Shanny and Cousins (at a cheaper rate), is a clear sign that things need to change at the top. With both Ellis and Elway.

I get to deal with the inept ownership bullshit all baseball season...it's be nice not to have to endure it during football season as well.

What article?

Davii
12-17-2018, 10:33 AM
What article?

From Frey on last page

Freyaka
12-17-2018, 10:39 AM
Without Elway there's no Manning. If Elway gets blame when shit falls apart he gets the same credit when things go right. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and all that.

How many "stacked" teams have we seen fail to live up to their potential?

Most of them is the answer. Manning made guys desire to play here but the right guys still had to be found and signed.

EXACTLY, you can say "well, everyone wanted to play with Manning" and that works to a point, until you recognize that there were a lot of potential players out there and Elway still had to find the right guys to fill needs.

It's not like Elway went out and grabbed big name players. Sure, there were a few (like Ware) but for every Demarcus Ware or T.J. Ward, there was a Pot roast or Stewart who weren't proven guys that Elway hit on.

Manny Sanders wasn't a proven talent either...While Ware was proven most thought he was too old and his time was up, Elway took a shot and it worked.

It's easy to say "Elway didn't do anything aside from luck into Manning!" but Elway still had to find the right people to fill the roster spots around Manning. Manning fell into Elway's lap, but Elway made smart choices to build this team.

Freyaka
12-17-2018, 10:41 AM
What article?

It's in the Fire VJ thread. Basically, Woody Paige confirms that Elway had a lot of meetings with Shannahan last year. The plan in place was Shanny was to be the coach and Shanny had already had meetings with Cousins, Cousins was going to come to Denver at a discounted rate with Shanny coaching.

Elway brought the plan to Ellis, Ellis vetoed it and told him we had to give VJ another year, Cousins refused to play for VJ (which is why we didn't even make an effort to get Cousins, we already knew he wasn't interested in playing for us unless we hired Shanny)

BroncoJoe
12-17-2018, 10:45 AM
It's in the Fire VJ thread. Basically, Woody Paige confirms that Elway had a lot of meetings with Shannahan last year. The plan in place was Shanny was to be the coach and Shanny had already had meetings with Cousins, Cousins was going to come to Denver at a discounted rate with Shanny coaching.

Elway brought the plan to Ellis, Ellis vetoed it and told him we had to give VJ another year, Cousins refused to play for VJ (which is why we didn't even make an effort to get Cousins, we already knew he wasn't interested in playing for us unless we hired Shanny)

And now we'll get 10,000 new threads about it as well.

Cugel
12-17-2018, 10:49 AM
I know the Raiders record, I also know that they’re better at drafting then the Broncos.

They drafted Kalil Mack and Amari Cooper and got rid of them both! That's not a genius move. It's very likely that whoever they get from those draft picks will NOT be as good as the guys they traded away!

So, I'd say how good Chucky is at drafting is an open question. In the past? Yes.

CoachChaz
12-17-2018, 01:51 PM
EXACTLY, you can say "well, everyone wanted to play with Manning" and that works to a point, until you recognize that there were a lot of potential players out there and Elway still had to find the right guys to fill needs.

It's not like Elway went out and grabbed big name players. Sure, there were a few (like Ware) but for every Demarcus Ware or T.J. Ward, there was a Pot roast or Stewart who weren't proven guys that Elway hit on.

Manny Sanders wasn't a proven talent either...While Ware was proven most thought he was too old and his time was up, Elway took a shot and it worked.

It's easy to say "Elway didn't do anything aside from luck into Manning!" but Elway still had to find the right people to fill the roster spots around Manning. Manning fell into Elway's lap, but Elway made smart choices to build this team.

Well...I still take the stance that Manning had more to do with it. Sure, Elway could relate to him better on the "HOF QB" level and convince him that Denver was a better landing spot than Tennessee, Arizona and SF were at the time, but I think most could have done that as well. But when you have an elite QB...elite offense...tons of cap space...and just played in a Super Bowl, it doesn't take too much recruiting to lure top defensive players to come join your team. Ward, Ware and Talib had every reason to come to Denver at the time, regardless of the GM.

I'm not saying Elway is incompetent...just not much better than average. Show me you can continue to draft well after your first good draft and sell free agents on your team after two consecutive losing seasons and I'll be more impressed.

BroncoJoe
12-17-2018, 05:11 PM
Well...I still take the stance that Manning had more to do with it. Sure, Elway could relate to him better on the "HOF QB" level and convince him that Denver was a better landing spot than Tennessee, Arizona and SF were at the time, but I think most could have done that as well. But when you have an elite QB...elite offense...tons of cap space...and just played in a Super Bowl, it doesn't take too much recruiting to lure top defensive players to come join your team. Ward, Ware and Talib had every reason to come to Denver at the time, regardless of the GM.

I'm not saying Elway is incompetent...just not much better than average. Show me you can continue to draft well after your first good draft and sell free agents on your team after two consecutive losing seasons and I'll be more impressed.

What do you mean? The Broncos were 4-12 and 8-8 the two years before Manning joined us.

I think Elway played a significant role in Manning coming here. TN, AZ and SF were far more attractive to an aging QB due to weather, home field, etc.

TXBRONC
12-17-2018, 05:56 PM
Without Elway there's no Manning. If Elway gets blame when shit falls apart he gets the same credit when things go right. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and all that.

How many "stacked" teams have we seen fail to live up to their potential?

Most of them is the answer. Manning made guys desire to play here but the right guys still had to be found and signed.

It gets overlooked, but signing Manning was huge risk. There was no way know for sure that Manning was even going to able play. The odds were in his favor but there still no way to know if Manning would be anything close to an elite quarterback again until he actually played.

MOtorboat
12-17-2018, 07:11 PM
What do you mean? The Broncos were 4-12 and 8-8 the two years before Manning joined us.

I think Elway played a significant role in Manning coming here. TN, AZ and SF were far more attractive to an aging QB due to weather, home field, etc.

He’s speaking of the defensive free agents that joined the team after the Seattle Super Bowl.

Simple Jaded
12-17-2018, 08:45 PM
They drafted Kalil Mack and Amari Cooper and got rid of them both! That's not a genius move. It's very likely that whoever they get from those draft picks will NOT be as good as the guys they traded away!

So, I'd say how good Chucky is at drafting is an open question. In the past? Yes.

Gruden has had one draft and it sucked but so far the Raiders are still in the lead.

Tned
12-17-2018, 08:58 PM
Gruden has had one draft and it sucked but so far the Raiders are still in the lead.

Yea, because records, championships, and the like doesn't matter. It's all about who wins drafts. :lol:

Simple Jaded
12-17-2018, 09:01 PM
Yea, because records, championships, and the like doesn't matter. It's all about who wins drafts. :lol:

Exactly, now you get it.

Good boy.

Cugel
12-17-2018, 11:56 PM
"The reason they didn't draft a QB in 2018 was NOT because Elway believed that Case Keenum could be the long term answer at QB! I admit I was wrong to think that he might be capable of being the long term answer. He quickly proved me wrong. BTW: Keenum's performance this year is statistically almost exactly what it was in MN. Only the Broncos don't have guys like Kyle Rudolph, Stephon Diggs or Adam Thielen so instead of 13-3, they are 6-7 going on 8-8 or 7-9.

Lots of other fans were guilty of drinking the Keenum cool-aid too. But, Elway NEVER was. When he signed Keenum called him "a bridge QB." But, a bridge to what?

As it turned out, Elway's plan was "a bridge to Paxton Lynch" whom he idiotically refused to admit was trash Every single fan, sportswriter, NFL GM, casual observer could see in April 2018 that Paxton was trash, and would always be trash. There was no point in planning around him.

After Paxton inevitably flamed out, they just went to Chad Kelly. Who also dropped out of the league like a stone due to congenital stupidity leaving them with "a bridge to nowhere."

See, if they drafted a developmental QB, then that guy would compete with Paxton, and they'd have to "kick Paxton to the curb." Obviously so, since Paxton could never out-compete anybody, not even Trevor Siemian.

So, because of Elway's stupidity, they were stuck without a long term plan at QB. They just wasted another year of Von Miller and Chris Harris and Derek Wolfe's careers."

This part of my critique turned out to be just flat wrong.

Elway wanted to fire Vance, hire Shanahan and then use Shanny to help land Kirk Cousins. That was a plan that could work. Cousins played great under Shanny, so much so that he was able to land a $28m/year FA contract. Whether or how much of a "discount" he would have taken is questionable.

But, that Shanahan would have been a better choice than Vance Joseph to coach this team? Do any of you doubt that? Seriously? :coffee:

Sure, they should have hired Kyle Shanahan, but in January 2018 that option no longer existed. What should they have done then? Fired VJ. Who wanted to do that? Elway. Who forbade them hiring Shanny? Joe Ellis.

So, Ellis is the villain who stuck us with Vance for another season.

TXBRONC
12-18-2018, 01:51 PM
Gruden has had one draft and it sucked but so far the Raiders are still in the lead.

What?

Tbolt
12-18-2018, 07:05 PM
This part of my critique turned out to be just flat wrong.

Elway wanted to fire Vance, hire Shanahan and then use Shanny to help land Kirk Cousins. That was a plan that could work. Cousins played great under Shanny, so much so that he was able to land a $28m/year FA contract. Whether or how much of a "discount" he would have taken is questionable.

But, that Shanahan would have been a better choice than Vance Joseph to coach this team? Do any of you doubt that? Seriously? :coffee:

Sure, they should have hired Kyle Shanahan, but in January 2018 that option no longer existed. What should they have done then? Fired VJ. Who wanted to do that? Elway. Who forbade them hiring Shanny? Joe Ellis.

So, Ellis is the villain who stuck us with Vance for another season.

According to Les Shapiro, Cousins would have taken somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 to 5 mil a year less to come here and play for Shanahan. So instead of paying Keenum 18m a year, we could have had Cousins for 23 or 24 a year. Seems like a number we could have managed.

Time to start sending Ellis hate mail. Anyone have his cell? Maybe a billboard or two...

Simple Jaded
12-18-2018, 09:10 PM
Yup, I owe Elway some apologies. Imma POS.

TXBRONC
12-18-2018, 11:17 PM
Yup, I owe Elway some apologies. Imma POS.

Yes you owe Elway an apology. As far as being a pos? No you're just one jaded sob. :D

Simple Jaded
12-18-2018, 11:21 PM
Yes you owe Elway an apology. As far as being a pos? No you're just one jaded sob. :D

Jaded AF

Cugel
12-20-2018, 03:55 PM
Yeah, this whole Joe Ellis B.S. has really made me re-evaluate my criticism of Elway. He still hired VJ instead of Kyle Shanahan, and he still drafted Paxton Lynch, but you can't really blame him for what happened this season.

Joe Ellis blocked his plan. There's now no doubt that Kirk Cousins would be vastly superior to Case Keenum. Cousins has a 99 QBR, 26 TDs 10 Ints. That's good. Keenum an 82 QBR, 15 TDs, 12 Ints. That's bad. Night and day.

We would have won at least 3 more games so far this year with Shanahan and Cousins - all games they were favored to win but inexplicably lost to crap teams: Jets, 49ers Browns. They MIGHT have managed to beat KC at home, who knows? 9-5 and you're in the hunt for a wild-card. 6-8 and you are making plans to go to Aruba for vacation in January.

I'm going on and on about this, I know, but damn, it's so frustrating that Ellis screwed this up so bad because he doesn't like Shanahan and doesn't want him in the building. Shanahan wouldn't even be reporting to Ellis anyway. He'd be reporting to Elway. If Elway could bury his grievances against Shanahan (for not taking Elway on as any kind of front office guy during the 2000s after Elway's retirement reportedly) then Ellis should be able to manage. Shanahan believed that Ellis wanted him gone back in 2008 and convinced Bowlen to fire him, but that's Shanahan's grievance against Ellis. What was Ellis' beef about Shanahan? Nothing that makes any sense.

Poet
12-20-2018, 04:22 PM
The board went from "Cousins sucks and is overrated," to "he would have been our savior."

It's possible to not want VJ and not want Shanahan. I'm glad we didn't take a retread back.

TXBRONC
12-20-2018, 05:13 PM
The board went from "Cousins sucks and is overrated," to "he would have been our savior."

It's possible to not want VJ and not want Shanahan. I'm glad we didn't take a retread back.

No, that is not accurate my friend. Most people thought Cousins was the better option, and they also believed he was out of Denver's price range.

Poet
12-20-2018, 05:17 PM
No, that is not accurate my friend. Most people thought Cousins was the better option, and they also believed he was out of Denver's price range.

Not here. People wanted him until the rumors of his cost surfaced and then it was a total change. The second we couldn't afford him it was "he's overrated," "who has he beaten," "Keenum is grittier," and all that spin. You ever seen people on here now bash the guy.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-20-2018, 05:38 PM
Not here. People wanted him until the rumors of his cost surfaced and then it was a total change. The second we couldn't afford him it was "he's overrated," "who has he beaten," "Keenum is grittier," and all that spin. You ever seen people on here now bash the guy.

You’re suggesting you’re the only person who wanted Cousins? Could it be some were just trying to see the silver lining in the cloud when we missed out on Cousins?

BroncoJoe
12-20-2018, 05:40 PM
You’re suggesting you’re the only person who wanted Cousins? Could it be some were just trying to see the silver lining in the cloud when we missed out on Cousins?

Cousins would have been awesome. But, not at $84M guaranteed.

Poet
12-20-2018, 05:43 PM
You’re suggesting you’re the only person who wanted Cousins? Could it be some were just trying to see the silver lining in the cloud when we missed out on Cousins?

It was like 50 vs. 5.

They etched their damned positions into the walls, Al.

Don't you go trying to soften the past!

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-20-2018, 05:48 PM
It was like 50 vs. 5.

They etched their damned positions into the walls, Al.

Don't you go trying to soften the past!

I like cheeseburgers.

TXBRONC
12-20-2018, 05:51 PM
Not here. People wanted him until the rumors of his cost surfaced and then it was a total change. The second we couldn't afford him it was "he's overrated," "who has he beaten," "Keenum is grittier," and all that spin. You ever seen people on here now bash the guy.

Again what you're saying is not accurate, from the outset most people knew that Cousins was going to be costly as free agent and more than likely out of Denver's price range. Denver's fan base as a whole is pretty knowledgeable.

TXBRONC
12-20-2018, 05:53 PM
I like cheeseburgers.

As do I. Double cheese burgers with bacon.

Poet
12-20-2018, 05:57 PM
Again what you're saying is not accurate, from the outset most people knew that Cousins was going to be costly as free agent and more than likely out of Denver's price range. Denver's fan base as a whole is pretty knowledgeable.

I don't think you're accurate, so we can go back and forth. Yay. Except I was the one clamoring for the guy and getting shit upon (an exaggeration) so I don't think you're swaying my opinion. I'm not swaying yours. For fun I go back through those older threads, usually to point out how absurdly wrong people were over Keenum, for instance, so I know what my position is based on.

Poet
12-20-2018, 05:57 PM
I like cheeseburgers.

I don't like anything.

BroncoJoe
12-20-2018, 05:58 PM
I don't like anything.

This is clearly accurate.

Poet
12-20-2018, 06:04 PM
This is clearly accurate.

I repudiate my former statement, or more so amend it. I like the Broncos a lot. I like, in particular, Chubb and Lindsay a lot. I like Elway as a GM, mostly. I like Von Miller. I love DeMarcus Ware.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-20-2018, 06:06 PM
I don't like anything.

I know you love cheeseburgers .

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-20-2018, 06:07 PM
As do I. Double cheese burgers with bacon.

Yum, I also like a slice of ham opposed to bacon from time to time.

TXBRONC
12-20-2018, 06:09 PM
I don't think you're accurate, so we can go back and forth. Yay. Except I was the one clamoring for the guy and getting shit upon (an exaggeration) so I don't think you're swaying my opinion. I'm not swaying yours. For fun I go back through those older threads, usually to point out how absurdly wrong people were over Keenum, for instance, so I know what my position is based on.

If you were being shit upon why are you still here? I'm sure you think you know what your position based. My memory is pretty good, and I have posted with many of these folks for a decade or more I pretty good idea what they would say.

Poet
12-20-2018, 06:09 PM
I know you love cheeseburgers .

Meh. Food keeps you alive and life is pain. The logic follows there.

I just tell myself when Oakland trades Carr and another team that needs a QB is in front of us that it'll be okay.

TXBRONC
12-20-2018, 06:10 PM
Yum, I also like a slice of ham opposed to bacon from time to time.

I can't say that I have ever had ham with a burger but it sounds good.

Thanks for the idea.

Poet
12-20-2018, 06:12 PM
If you were being shit upon why are you still here? I'm sure you think you know what your position based. My memory is pretty good, and I have posted with many of these folks for a decade or more I pretty good idea what they would say.

I'm still here because I love the people here. And yeah, there have been times I've been shit upon. But other times have been splendid. It's just how it goes. When people were on the TS hype train and I wasn't there was shit flinging. Eventually I was proven right. When CK was signed and I was mortified there was shitting. I was proven right. People want to be positive and happy. I want to analyze and review the situation. If I come out with a negative situation, on a board that serves as a hobby for the posters, of course there will be backlash. People want to believe in things.



Your memory is not commensurate with the reactions, and with respect the fact that you're doing an analysis based on hypothetical, and weren't overly active during the time period we're talking about doesn't help your 'case', either.

TXBRONC
12-20-2018, 06:17 PM
I'm still here because I love the people here. And yeah, there have been times I've been shit upon. But other times have been splendid. It's just how it goes. When people were on the TS hype train and I wasn't there was shit flinging. Eventually I was proven right. When CK was signed and I was mortified there was shitting. I was proven right. People want to be positive and happy. I want to analyze and review the situation. If I come out with a negative situation, on a board that serves as a hobby for the posters, of course there will be backlash. People want to believe in things.



Your memory is not commensurate with the reactions, and with respect the fact that you're doing an analysis based on hypothetical, and weren't overly active during the time period we're talking about doesn't help your 'case', either.

Yes I was active enough at the time. Also, you have presented any facts. So

Poet
12-20-2018, 06:18 PM
Yes I was active enough at the time. Also, you have presented any facts. So

Yeah Tx, because I'm going to go through and post a bunch of old posts. Good lord, next time someone tells me I'm argumentative I'll link them to you. You were barely active during that time. I remember that because I was foolish enough to miss you. Must be my big ole Arby's enlarged heart.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-20-2018, 06:19 PM
I can't say that I have ever had ham with a burger but it sounds good.

Thanks for the idea.

It’s amazing.

TXBRONC
12-20-2018, 06:21 PM
It’s amazing.

Like I said it sounds good. I will have to give a try sometime.

Poet
12-20-2018, 06:21 PM
It’s amazing.

:rolleyes::D

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-20-2018, 06:26 PM
:rolleyes::D

Have you tried it king?

Poet
12-20-2018, 06:31 PM
Have you tried it king?

No. I only eat salads and jog.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-20-2018, 06:53 PM
No. I only eat salads and jog.

Mmm-hhmmm.

Cugel
12-20-2018, 07:14 PM
The board went from "Cousins sucks and is overrated," to "he would have been our savior."

It's possible to not want VJ and not want Shanahan. I'm glad we didn't take a retread back.

Wait until they announce the next coach and he's worse. There aren't any really great coaching candidates out there this year according to NFL insiders who talk to reporters. John Harbaugh would be the best of them but apparently he's not going to be fired.

Denver can't afford to take another untried coordinator who has to learn how to be a head coach in the league and maybe not be very good. The Lions thought they were getting a star in Matt Patricia, but now? Not so much. :coffee:

Poet
12-20-2018, 07:16 PM
Great, so we get a guy whose last season in the NFL was 3-13. Who had one winning season in Washington, with a QB he broke. Who struggled at the end of his tenure in Denver. Whose been out of the league for years.

Yeah, we HAVE to go get that guy.

Tbolt
12-20-2018, 07:25 PM
Great, so we get a guy whose last season in the NFL was 3-13. Who had one winning season in Washington, with a QB he broke. Who struggled at the end of his tenure in Denver. Whose been out of the league for years.

Yeah, we HAVE to go get that guy.

You might recall we hired a guy a couple of coaches ago that was 1-15 with his old team, finishing worse than we did that year. But maybe if you make the same argument a few more times it will stick. Who do YOU think they should hire?

Poet
12-20-2018, 07:28 PM
I would start with criterion.

Preferably someone young. Geared towards offense and a QB friendly system.

FanInAZ
12-20-2018, 11:25 PM
What do you mean? The Broncos were 4-12 and 8-8 the two years before Manning joined us.

I think Elway played a significant role in Manning coming here. TN, AZ and SF were far more attractive to an aging QB due to weather, home field, etc.

Someone posted an article at the time that AZ blew it by not sending someone to meet Manning at the airport.

Simple Jaded
12-21-2018, 01:46 AM
If you were being shit upon why are you still here? I'm sure you think you know what your position based. My memory is pretty good, and I have posted with many of these folks for a decade or more I pretty good idea what they would say.

He’s still getting shit on, me thinks it has more to do with something other than the Broncos though.

Poet
12-21-2018, 01:49 AM
He’s still getting shit on, me thinks it has more to do with something other than the Broncos though.

It’s cause I’m white.

Simple Jaded
12-21-2018, 01:50 AM
It’s cause I’m white.

And handsome.

Poet
12-21-2018, 02:50 AM
And handsome.

Guilty.

TXBRONC
12-21-2018, 08:56 AM
He’s still getting shit on, me thinks it has more to do with something other than the Broncos though.

I think you're right. Maybe you could do some counseling with him.

Davii
12-21-2018, 09:31 AM
I would start with criterion.

Preferably someone young. Geared towards offense and a QB friendly system.

Why young? Why is that a requirement? What if the best guy for the job is 63?

Jsteve01
12-21-2018, 10:11 AM
I would start with criterion.

Preferably someone young. Geared towards offense and a QB friendly system.

Why young? Why is that a requirement? What if the best guy for the job is 63?

See Dick Vermeil

BroncoJoe
12-21-2018, 10:39 AM
I repudiate my former statement, or more so amend it. I like the Broncos a lot. I like, in particular, Chubb and Lindsay a lot. I like Elway as a GM, mostly. I like Von Miller. I love DeMarcus Ware.

How dare you leave me off this list.

:click:

Davii
12-21-2018, 10:41 AM
How dare you leave me off this list.

:click:

Joe, I have nothing but love for you.

BroncoJoe
12-21-2018, 10:48 AM
Joe, I have nothing but love for you.

Ditto.

Let's get married.

Davii
12-21-2018, 10:49 AM
Ditto.

Let's get married.

It's too late and too early for that Joe. We're already betrothed and today's world wouldn't understand a 2nd completely platonic marriage of brotherhood. The world isn't ready Joe.

Northman
12-21-2018, 11:01 AM
You two should just hook up on tinder and get it all out. No marriage needed.

BroncoJoe
12-21-2018, 11:03 AM
You two should just hook up on tinder and get it all out. No marriage needed.

How do you think we met?

TXBRONC
12-21-2018, 11:11 AM
See Dick Vermeil

Also Bill Walsh

Dapper Dan
12-21-2018, 11:22 AM
After further review, I blame Ellis.

TXBRONC
12-21-2018, 11:37 AM
How do you think we met?

On a Broncos internet fan forum would be my guess.

Tbolt
12-21-2018, 11:50 AM
On a Broncos internet fan forum would be my guess.

Basically how I met my current wife.

I wouldn't recommend it. Don't say you weren't warned when your other half turns out to be batshit crazy and you wonder what is wrong with your decision making process. Kinda like when Elway hires a coach, but without having to give up half your stuff if you fire them.

Freyaka
12-21-2018, 11:59 AM
Ditto.

Let's get married.


It's too late and too early for that Joe. We're already betrothed and today's world wouldn't understand a 2nd completely platonic marriage of brotherhood. The world isn't ready Joe.

Jeeze at least get a room already...

BroncoJoe
12-21-2018, 12:13 PM
Jeeze at least get a room already...

Been there, done that.

Freyaka
12-21-2018, 12:20 PM
Been there, done that.

I have no reason to doubt the validity of this statement.

Cugel
12-21-2018, 03:31 PM
Why young? Why is that a requirement? What if the best guy for the job is 63?

Just thinking about that means it's time for my nap.
13449

Poet
12-21-2018, 03:39 PM
Why young? Why is that a requirement? What if the best guy for the job is 63?

Because the past few years there have been so many splendid young HCs coming out and doing well. Because young professionals are less set in their ways and obstinate. Because you're not going to find too many old HC's who are studs that aren't employed.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-21-2018, 05:07 PM
Because the past few years there have been so many splendid young HCs coming out and doing well. Because young professionals are less set in their ways and obstinate. Because you're not going to find too many old HC's who are studs that aren't employed.

Okay, outside of McVay, name a young HC who is doing well in the NFL. College doesn’t count. Ready, go!

Poet
12-21-2018, 05:17 PM
Okay, outside of McVay, name a young HC who is doing well in the NFL. College doesn’t count. Ready, go!

Isn't there a gentlemen up in Chicago doing well?

Hasn't Kyle Shanahan done well, all things considered?

Isn't Vrabel doing pretty well. He's 42,and that's young in my eyes for a NFL HC.

Isn't Gase at least doing a solid job on a Miami team that has been losing a lot of talent, recently?

Northman
12-21-2018, 05:21 PM
What about Doug Pederson? He won a SB last year didnt he or is he really old?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-21-2018, 05:25 PM
What about Doug Pederson? He won a SB last year didnt he or is he really old?

I would guess he’s closer to 50.

IMO, it doesn’t matter if he’s young or old. He needs to be smart, passionate and be able to relate to the players. Age descrimination should be avoided. We’ve seen both young and old HC’s win Superbowls with the Broncos and around the league

Poet
12-21-2018, 05:26 PM
What about Doug Pederson? He won a SB last year didnt he or is he really old?

He is 50 on the dot. I didn't want to get THAT bold.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-21-2018, 05:28 PM
He is 50 on the dot. I didn't want to get THAT bold.

Wow, lucky guess on my part!

Poet
12-21-2018, 05:28 PM
I would guess he’s closer to 50.

IMO, it doesn’t matter if he’s young or old. He needs to be smart, passionate and be able to relate to the players. Age descrimination should be avoided. We’ve seen both young and old HC’s win Superbowls with the Broncos and around the league

Old also means, often that is, a retread.

Sure, if we could find an Andy Reid or Belichick clone, that'd be great. I doubt they'll be on the market, though.

Poet
12-21-2018, 05:30 PM
Wow, lucky guess on my part!

:salute:

HORSEPOWER 56
12-21-2018, 05:32 PM
Isn't there a gentlemen up in Chicago doing well?

Hasn't Kyle Shanahan done well, all things considered?

Isn't Vrabel doing pretty well. He's 42,and that's young in my eyes for a NFL HC.

Isn't Gase at least doing a solid job on a Miami team that has been losing a lot of talent, recently?


Nagy is responsible for the #22 ranked offense while Vic Fangio runs the #3 ranked defense. Which do you feel is more responsible for their success? Kinda a Kubiak and Wade in 2015 thing going on up there in Chi town. Sure, you could say he’s a young coach doing well, but is it him or does it also correspond with Green Bay sucking ass, Detroit still sucking ass, and Minnesota taking a huge step back?

Kyle Shanahan? Really? No he’s had bad luck with his starting QB out but he’s not doing “well”.

I guess Vrabel is doing “well enough”. They were a playoff team last year and are 8-6 this year so if they win out they will have the same record as last year. They sure as shit aren’t doing anything innovative and Mariota is still the exact same dude he was when he was drafted. So improvement? Not really.

Gase is on track to get fired. His seat is almost as warm as VJ’s. In 3 years, even he hasn’t been able to turn Tannehill into a top 10 QB. I think he might get canned if Miami misses the playoffs. If not, he goes into next year a lame duck on the hot seat.

Those are my opinions, of course, but I’m just not seeing this “young genius” revolution. You really can’t even count Vrabel. He was a player for over a decade. Just because he’s not super old yet doesn’t mean he’s some hot up and comer.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-21-2018, 05:35 PM
Old also means, often that is, a retread.

Sure, if we could find an Andy Reid or Belichick clone, that'd be great. I doubt they'll be on the market, though.

It could mean that. Or it could mean experienced and innovative who stepped away for a bit. Vermeil stepped away and came back when he was older and had two very successful runs, 1 with the Rams and 1 with the Chiefs. It’s easy to make blanket statements about either age group, but I will avoid that rabbit hole.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-21-2018, 05:36 PM
What about Doug Pederson? He won a SB last year didnt he or is he really old?


Not only is he 50, he caught lightning in a bottle last year to win the Super Bowl. Philly won’t make the postseason this year. With all the money the Eagles spent this offseason for the level of production they have, especially on offense, Pedersen actually looks like a kinda shitty coach that he couldn’t even win his shitty division. Maybe they just miss Frank Reich?

Northman
12-21-2018, 05:45 PM
Not only is he 50, he caught lightning in a bottle last year to win the Super Bowl. Philly won’t make the postseason this year. With all the money the Eagles spent this offseason for the level of production they have, especially on offense, Pedersen actually looks like a kinda shitty coach that he couldn’t even win his shitty division. Maybe they just miss Frank Reich?

Are they entirely out of the playoff picture? I thought they still had an outside chance? Anyway, i think they believed that Foles would have continued to play great to start the season while Wentz healed. They were also without Jeffrey for a period of time and i think another receiver left after the SB. They probably should have been better this year but its not uncommon for SB winners to have down years after a championship run. But sure, Reich could also be a missing ingredient.

Poet
12-21-2018, 05:54 PM
Not only is he 50, he caught lightning in a bottle last year to win the Super Bowl. Philly won’t make the postseason this year. With all the money the Eagles spent this offseason for the level of production they have, especially on offense, Pedersen actually looks like a kinda shitty coach that he couldn’t even win his shitty division. Maybe they just miss Frank Reich?

He wins a SB and we write it off. Elway wins a SB as an executive and the team falls apart, fans are mostly like meh.

Don't a lot of teams have a struggle after a SB win? Didn't they lose most of their secondary? Come on maaaaaaaaaaaaan. ;)

HORSEPOWER 56
12-21-2018, 06:02 PM
He wins a SB and we write it off. Elway wins a SB as an executive and the team falls apart, fans are mostly like meh.

Don't a lot of teams have a struggle after a SB win? Didn't they lose most of their secondary? Come on maaaaaaaaaaaaan. ;)

Oh I understand what you mean about a post Super Bowl let down, but for all intents and purposes the Eagles should’ve improved, not gotten worse. They made huge splashes in free agency and traded for guys too. If there’s one team out there that fell off a cliff for no reason, it’s the Eagles. They didn’t lose their franchise QB, best DE and best ILB to free agency and not replace them like Denver did.

Poet
12-21-2018, 06:14 PM
Oh I understand what you mean about a post Super Bowl let down, but for all intents and purposes the Eagles should’ve improved, not gotten worse. They made huge splashes in free agency and traded for guys too. If there’s one team out there that fell off a cliff for no reason, it’s the Eagles. They didn’t lose their franchise QB, best DE and best ILB to free agency and not replace them like Denver did.

How do you improve from a SB win? It's hard to maintain that type of consistency. The fact that they went out and acquired more talent shows the mentality that they have.

They started the season without Wentz and it took him awhile to get back to form. He's also, unfortunately, out with a busted up back.

Cugel
12-23-2018, 12:26 PM
Are we still arguing about that? Look at Elway's 2017 draft where Bolles is about the only guy from that draft on the roster any more. It was a disaster of a draft and 2016 (Paxton) and 2015 (Shane Ray) weren't much better. They are on the verge of moving on from a bunch of their draft class of 2015 like Bradley Roby their #1 pick in 2014 and Shane Ray their #1 pick in 2015. Paxton Lynch, their #1 pick in 2016 is already long gone of course.

Their one success in 2014 was undoubtedly Matt Paradis and now he's an UFA and with his serious injury they may not want him back or they might not be willing to pay him a big signing bonus when they aren't sure how healthy he'll be moving forward, as he's been hampered by injuries the last 3 years.

As for the rest of 2015, Ty Sambrailo, their #2 pick is long gone so unless they re-sign the disappointing TE Jeff Heuerman there's nothing whatever left after Shane Ray leaves at the end of the season (he's publicly complaining about being a healthy game day inactive).

They need desperately to have another 2 or 3 drafts like 2018, they can't afford any more misses after the fiasco of the last 4 years.

BeefStew25
12-23-2018, 01:12 PM
Like not even an amazing draft. Just be decent a couple years.

Simple Jaded
12-23-2018, 08:21 PM
I’m actually hoping they try to get more than 3 legitimate NFL starters in the next draft.

Ground Control
12-25-2018, 12:38 AM
Are they entirely out of the playoff picture? I thought they still had an outside chance? Anyway, i think they believed that Foles would have continued to play great to start the season while Wentz healed. They were also without Jeffrey for a period of time and i think another receiver left after the SB. They probably should have been better this year but its not uncommon for SB winners to have down years after a championship run. But sure, Reich could also be a missing ingredient.

Northman. You're making it hard to concentrate when you bite on your shirt like that. Who's what, what again?

Simple Jaded
12-25-2018, 12:42 AM
Are they entirely out of the playoff picture? I thought they still had an outside chance? Anyway, i think they believed that Foles would have continued to play great to start the season while Wentz healed. They were also without Jeffrey for a period of time and i think another receiver left after the SB. They probably should have been better this year but its not uncommon for SB winners to have down years after a championship run. But sure, Reich could also be a missing ingredient.

Eagles are in if win and the Bears beat the Vikings.

Ground Control
12-25-2018, 01:38 AM
Fair enough.

Hopefully.

Poet
12-25-2018, 01:20 PM
Ellis can't be all that bad if it's stopping Elway from getting us Shanahan Sr.

Elway isn't a magical saint. Ellis isn't Satan.

Stop it, folks.

Davii
12-25-2018, 03:13 PM
:mod:

This is not P&R. If you can't discuss this without being political you need to see yourself out or you will be banned.

Northman
12-25-2018, 04:22 PM
Northman. You're making it hard to concentrate when you bite on your shirt like that. Who's what, what again?

You mean my girl Emma? Yea, she's badass.

Simple Jaded
12-25-2018, 06:39 PM
Ellis can't be all that bad if it's stopping Elway from getting us Shanahan Sr.

Elway isn't a magical saint. Ellis isn't Satan.

Stop it, folks.
King must go!

Poet
12-25-2018, 07:15 PM
King must go!

If Jaded needs the king to go, then the King will go. Say the word, Jaded.

Simple Jaded
12-25-2018, 07:18 PM
If Jaded needs the king to go, then the King will go. Say the word, Jaded.

Nah, I’m good.

Elevation inc
12-26-2018, 04:08 AM
I’m actually hoping they try to get more than 3 legitimate NFL starters in the next draft.


We need a CB, QB in the first 2 rds....Seeing more and more mocks having us take Haskins with Herbert to Jacksonville and lock to the Giants.....

Simple Jaded
12-26-2018, 09:53 PM
We need a CB, QB in the first 2 rds....Seeing more and more mocks having us take Haskins with Herbert to Jacksonville and lock to the Giants.....

Herbert tucked his tail and went back to Oregon.

I want Lock, I’m a whore for that talent, and you can’t sign Keenum and then tell me that Alpha/Commanding leadership is at all important.

I like what I’ve read about Haskins but he’s a one year starter from an offense that made Tebow look accurate.

They need to take two QB’s in this draft, not a 1st rounder and a TS in the 7th ... I mean two bites at the apple. Then take another next draft depending on who they get in this draft. That’s how bad they’ve mismanaged this roster.

Edit, btw the Broncos can get as high as 7th in this draft, I believe that means they could jump ahead of both Giants and Jagoffs if things fall right this weekend.

So, plan accordingly and bet the mortgage on the Broncos winning this weekend.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-26-2018, 09:58 PM
I want an athletic football player. Lynch was a good athlete in college, but nothing screamed “this guy is a good football player!”

Give me Watson.

Poet
12-26-2018, 10:05 PM
Dead. Cat. Bounce.

******* Chargers and Steelers boned us - undisciplined asshats.

Poet
12-26-2018, 10:07 PM
I want an athletic football player. Lynch was a good athlete in college, but nothing screamed “this guy is a good football player!”

Give me Watson.

You want to trade with the Texans?

Simple Jaded
12-26-2018, 10:15 PM
Dead. Cat. Bounce.

******* Chargers and Steelers boned us - undisciplined asshats.

Both were on long winning streaks, same with Texans and they barely survived. I always bet on streaks ending.

It’s science.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
12-26-2018, 10:18 PM
You want to trade with the Texans?

The Texans aren’t that stupid. I want a player like Watson.

Poet
12-26-2018, 10:30 PM
The Texans aren’t that stupid. I want a player like Watson.

I thought you were trolling me. I thought you had hate in your heart.

Ground Control
12-30-2018, 12:34 AM
Why young? Why is that a requirement? What if the best guy for the job is 63?

Because all humans are hard wired to act on what we know. And 63 year old humans are hard wired to act just like every other archaic human that they grew and developed with. The NFL Is and has already changed. NFL ownership is holding tight to old social and football concepts, while trying to scrape themselves into winners in the new world of football. Elway is obviously leaning towards your example that 'the best man gets the job' but is still favored because of his status. So, yeah. You're right. 63 is a great age to be a GM. In fact, 63 years on this earth gives plenty of time to make all of the connections needed to be successful in NFL circles. Enough connections that experience and skill are no longer important. So, evolution and innovation are no longer important.

If the best guy for the job was 63, hell yeah! But that exclamation should be made only when that man has proven himself to be an innovator and not a droll slave to the people that helped him rise to his position.

The NFL is a business that thrives on what have you done for me lately. Except as it regards to GMS and owners. We, as fans, must ask what has John Elway done for us lately. We must also ask, what has Ellis and the current 'Trust' has done for us. 63 hasn't done shit but lose and make impotent chaos of the organizational structure. 63 can make things right but have given no sign that it can do so. Other organizations are evolving. Shouldn't the Broncos? Some organizations are living 63 and succeeding, but that might be because the industry of the NFL is still 63...and painfully crawling into the 21rst century. So, every part of the infrastructure of the NFL is geared towards supporting the ideas of 63. But it's evolving because it is definitely the sport that most embodies success as the rule. Unfortunately, there are enough old, rotting men that think that 63 is best, since they got where they are because of 63 in the NFL. But there are enough decision makers that are not 63 that are winning and making the NFL change that we should ask if we are a team that is white knuckling the past, and succeeding on an outdated system. Or, are we willing to move forward on the merits that make the league great?

Dominance. What have you done for me lately? What applies to the player, applies to the management.

Period.

So, yeah. If 63 does that than great. But if 63 is an old fan that wants to have his team's management be the same age as him or her because that makes him comfortable, than no. The world is moving on and the NFL is evolving. Currently, the Broncos are waaaay behind the curve of that evolution. Very much because of that painful clutching on to the past (establishment/ nepotism) that rules at the upper levels of the franchise. Please let me in on any example of 63 that will change that for the Broncos. I don't see it myself.

Simple Jaded
12-30-2018, 01:25 AM
:sigh:

The Broncos run all same kind of plays that Mr Innovative runs, they’re one of leading teams of 3-Wide ... it’s not like they’re running Jumbo set/Lombardi sweep on 1st and 10 from their own 25.

This “innovative” narrative is quickly becoming the biggest cliche in sports.

Poet
12-30-2018, 01:29 AM
:sigh:

The Broncos run all same kind of plays that Mr Innovative runs, they’re one of leading teams of 3-Wide ... it’s not like they’re running Jumbo set/Lombardi sweep on 1st and 10 from their own 25.

This “innovative” narrative is quickly becoming the biggest cliche in sports.

This isn't entirely true. Not all teams are as innovative. It's not a one size fits all thing. Moreover, the Rams rnu a lot of three wide yet the play calls never seem to look the same, results be damned.

Cugel
12-30-2018, 07:05 AM
But there are enough decision makers that are not 63 that are winning and making the NFL change that we should ask if we are a team that is white knuckling the past, and succeeding on an outdated system. Or, are we willing to move forward on the merits that make the league great?

In the NFL its simple. It's wins and losses. This is an entertainment industry. Who wins these games actually matters zero in life and last years' games are about as valuable as last Autumn's leaves scattered on the ground. It's about entertainment NOW and for the future. If the fans are happy they go to the stadium and people buy stuff and watch the team on TV so that their revenues rise. And if they don't win, people tend not to go to games and watch as much and their revenues don't go up as much.

They still make money even if they're Cleveland because its the NFL, but not as much. And billionaires spend a surprising amount of their time calculating exactly how much "not as much" is costing them, when compared with "quite a bit more $ from wining the SB."

So, the incentive is there. NFL Owners are like a super-rich version of trophy Yacht race owners who spend millions on their sailboat racing yachts. They want to win because there's a big gaudy trophy (in Yachting it's called the "America's Cup") they get to put in the lobby to impress the guests.

But of course, being composed of billionaires who are mostly the privileged idiot children of people who through a combination of inheritance, hard work, brains and incredible luck have built something valuable out of the NFL, means you grew up never having to think too hard or work too hard. There was always a tutor to straighten out your grades or mentor you through summer school if you screwed up. Some might even take a test for you if you bribed them hard enough. Tutors don't make a lot of money and a rich billionaire idiot child grows up with a lot of $.

So, by the time today's NFL owner is 63 they are a generically fossilized piece of entitled trash - generally speaking. Not all, but more than their share.

New thinking is generally beyond them, but they do recognize the scent of money, the way your blind old incontinent dog can recognize a female dog's butt passing by about a block away. They can remember that rancid sent of more $ and they get up and waddle after it in their limping sort of manner.

So, there is a sort of change in the NFL. Sloow, but steady, like a tree yielding to the powerful prevailing winds will grow it's branches to reduce wind resistance, the NFL slowly changes towards reality. It just takes longer with Goobers in charge.

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 12:01 AM
This isn't entirely true. Not all teams are as innovative. It's not a one size fits all thing. Moreover, the Rams rnu a lot of three wide yet the play calls never seem to look the same, results be damned.

Exactly, not all teams are innovative yet somehow all teams run the same shit?

Poet
12-31-2018, 12:02 AM
Exactly, not all teams are innovative yet somehow all teams run the same shit?

They don't all run the same shit.

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 12:16 AM
They don't all run the same shit.

What does K.C. run that Denver doesn’t?

Poet
12-31-2018, 12:29 AM
What does K.C. run that Denver doesn’t?

Slants.

A RPO.

They run sweeps, too.

Much more HB draws. More flare routes.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-31-2018, 12:31 AM
What does K.C. run that Denver doesn’t?

Wait, I know!.. they use a WR and put him in motion and right before he crosses the QB’s face they snap the ball so they can either hand it to him or fake it to him or none of that. It’s called a “jet sweep” and it’s pretty much the only play that KC and LAR run regularly that we don’t. It’s not even that good of a play. We actually started trying it with ES before he got hurt.

Both teams are successful on offense because of their QBs, RBs, and other offensive talent. Guys like Tyreek Hill and Pat Mahomes make any offense look better.

Poet
12-31-2018, 12:37 AM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2018/10/11/chiefs-using-motion-unique-formations-to-create-nightmares/38125227/


That play calling was something I've never seen before," said Jacksonville safety Tashaun Gipson, whose top-ranked defense was torched in a 30-14 loss at Arrowhead Stadium last Sunday.

"I've played Andy Reid, and maybe it was the Browns or it was Jacksonville 2016, and he didn't pull out all the stops," Gipson said. "But this game plan, man, and I can't say it enough — and again, I'm not trying to discredit any guys over there — but I've never seen a team do that to us consistently."

Please read the entire article.

Poet
12-31-2018, 12:39 AM
https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2018/10/1/17914474/patrick-mahomes-chiefs-offense-andy-reid-spread-concepts-tyreek-hill

Read that also.

This concept that all the NFL offenses are the same is insane. It's more than just "slants," per se - route combinations, motions, personnel concepts...y'all tripping.

MOtorboat
12-31-2018, 12:44 AM
What does K.C. run that Denver doesn’t?

All sorts of shit.

Poet
12-31-2018, 12:48 AM
All sorts of shit.

I can't understand how this is even a discussion.

MOtorboat
12-31-2018, 12:48 AM
Wait, I know!.. they use a WR and put him in motion and right before he crosses the QB’s face they snap the ball so they can either hand it to him or fake it to him or none of that. It’s called a “jet sweep” and it’s pretty much the only play that KC and LAR run regularly that we don’t. It’s not even that good of a play. We actually started trying it with ES before he got hurt.

Both teams are successful on offense because of their QBs, RBs, and other offensive talent. Guys like Tyreek Hill and Pat Mahomes make any offense look better.

Their jet sweep isn’t the only thing that sets Andy Reid apart. Watch them play. Denver isn’t running the route combos and play sequences Andy Reid is running. They aren’t running the shifts and the personnel packages and they aren’t utilizing their best athletes in space.

Is it some vast difference? No. But there’s enough subtlety in play calling and base scheme that there’s a difference. Does the speed of Tyreek Hill stand out? Yes. Does Travis Kelce‘s talent stand out, yes. And so does Mahomes, but there is also a noticeable difference in scheme.

Poet
12-31-2018, 12:51 AM
The fact that they move their pieces around in real time to counter act adjustments made against them, while also sprinkling in the RPO is...Reid is a SB away from being recognized as a true genius.

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 12:53 AM
All sorts of shit.

We run all those sweet sweet draw plays you like, they spread, they rarely use the FB. Route concepts are all the same, K.C. just draws them on a bigger grease board because Mahomie isn’t a 6’-0” ragarmed bed wetter.

Far as I can tell there’s no RPO’s but with a Kubiak team you don’t get options, you are an extension of the OC.

Poet
12-31-2018, 12:57 AM
We run all those sweet sweet draw plays you like, they spread, they rarely use the FB. Route concepts are all the same, K.C. just draws them on a bigger grease board because Mahomie isn’t a 6’-0” ragarmed bed wetter.

Far as I can tell there’s no RPO’s but with a Kubiak team you don’t get options, you are an extension of the OC.

You read thos articles? If you didn't, you poo. If you did, I don't understand what can be debated.

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 12:58 AM
You read thos articles? If you didn't, you poo. If you did, I don't understand what can be debated.

Pfft, I can’t read.

Poet
12-31-2018, 01:04 AM
Pfft, I can’t read.

You!

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 01:06 AM
You!

:coffee:

MOtorboat
12-31-2018, 01:07 AM
We run all those sweet sweet draw plays you like, they spread, they rarely use the FB. Route concepts are all the same, K.C. just draws them on a bigger grease board because Mahomie isn’t a 6’-0” ragarmed bed wetter.

Far as I can tell there’s no RPO’s but with a Kubiak team you don’t get options, you are an extension of the OC.

Nah. Watch closer. Denver is running and entirely different scheme, man.

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 01:12 AM
All jokes aside, I’m all for fresh ideas, but as I understand it Reid has incorporated college offense principles (half field reads, RPO’s) with his version of a WCO.

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 01:13 AM
Nah. Watch closer. Denver is running and entirely different scheme, man.


I can’t take my eyes off Mahomie, if I had him I’d be more flexible too.

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 01:14 AM
I can’t take my eyes off Mahomie, if I had him I’d be more flexible too.

No homo.

MOtorboat
12-31-2018, 01:19 AM
All jokes aside, I’m all for fresh ideas, but as I understand it Reid has incorporated college offense principles (half field reads, RPO’s) with his version of a WCO.

Here's the first plays from the first two drives the Chiefs had against Denver. These are two plays that Denver does not run:

The setup:
13465
13466
13467

MOtorboat
12-31-2018, 01:20 AM
The payoff:
13468
13469
13470
13471

MOtorboat
12-31-2018, 01:21 AM
Reid draws the defense in with a shotgun power, fake bubble screen, and then runs a waggle out of the same formation that has a crossing route, a wheel route and a shovel pass route with a run option. (And three are wide open against a decent defense.)

Denver doesn't run that.

Poet
12-31-2018, 01:22 AM
:coffee:

You stole my style!?!??!

I'm proud af.

Poet
12-31-2018, 01:23 AM
I can’t take my eyes off Mahomie, if I had him I’d be more flexible too.

He is the best QB in the league right now.

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 01:25 AM
I realize they don’t run RPO’s, I went back and watched that play and it looks like an RPO.

It is a sweet draw play, though.

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 01:26 AM
You stole my style!?!??!

I'm proud af.

You know long I been waitin?

MOtorboat
12-31-2018, 01:27 AM
I realize they don’t run RPO’s, I went back and watched that play and it looks like an RPO.

It is a sweet draw play, though.

Sigh.

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 01:29 AM
Reid draws the defense in with a shotgun power, fake bubble screen, and then runs a waggle out of the same formation that has a crossing route, a wheel route and a shovel pass route with a run option. (And three are wide open against a decent defense.)

Denver doesn't run that.

We’ve run fake bubble/draw, just faked the bubble before the handoff.

MOtorboat
12-31-2018, 01:30 AM
We’ve run fake bubble/draw, just faked the bubble before the handoff.

Not with the waggle payoff on the next drive we haven’t. Also, that was a power, not a draw.

#allshotgunrunsarentdraws

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 01:41 AM
Not with the waggle payoff on the next drive we haven’t. Also, that was a power, not a draw.

#allshotgunrunsarentdraws

A power draw.

#AllShitgunRunsAreGlorifiedDraws

MOtorboat
12-31-2018, 01:43 AM
A power draw.

#AllShitgunRunsAreGlorifiedDraws

#false

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 01:43 AM
#false

#Science

MOtorboat
12-31-2018, 01:46 AM
#Science

#joel
#stuckinthe60s

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 01:51 AM
#joel
#stuckinthe60s

#PassToScore
#RunToWin

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 01:54 AM
#GetOffMyLawn
#RespectYourElders

MOtorboat
12-31-2018, 02:01 AM
#PassToScore
#RunToWin

VJ says you have to score points to win. Maybe he's wrong. :whoknows:

Poet
12-31-2018, 03:42 AM
#PassToScore
#RunToWin

Woof

Hawgdriver
12-31-2018, 04:07 AM
The fact that they move their pieces around in real time to counter act adjustments made against them, while also sprinkling in the RPO is...Reid is a SB away from being recognized as a true genius.

Some teams can plain out-execute you, some pick on your weak link, some throw in a wrinkle, some design great scripts, some have explosive plays in their hip pocket...but like you say, the best ones react to new data with the right answer right away.

Shazam!
12-31-2018, 08:25 AM
The fact that they move their pieces around in real time to counter act adjustments made against them, while also sprinkling in the RPO is...Reid is a SB away from being recognized as a true genius.

Some teams can plain out-execute you, some pick on your weak link, some throw in a wrinkle, some design great scripts, some have explosive plays in their hip pocket...but like you say, the best ones react to new data with the right answer right away.

These Broncos have no identity. What they do do well the Coaching staff refuses to stick too and its been the case for years. They play scared.

TXBRONC
12-31-2018, 10:21 AM
Pfft, I can’t read.

That's telling him.

Simple Jaded
12-31-2018, 12:37 PM
VJ says you have to score points to win. Maybe he's wrong. :whoknows:

Who ya gonna believe, me ... or Clown Shoes?

SmilinAssasSin27
01-01-2019, 02:53 PM
Let Elway continue as GM as long as he wants.



















Just don't let him make any personnel decisions.

You're welcome.

Poet
01-01-2019, 02:59 PM
These Broncos have no identity. What they do do well the Coaching staff refuses to stick too and its been the case for years. They play scared.

We need intellect. We need youth. We need schemes. We need young talent. Old folks rarely want to adapt and switch it up (Andy Reid is an exception). No more old folks. Might be a FEW exceptions, but I'm tired of this team being raped by old boring dudes who are scared to change.

It's time to be bold. I want that old Elway back. The old Elway played poker and shot guns. This current Elway watches Matlock and likes to have a wild night in when he puts cinnamon in his oatmeal.

SmilinAssasSin27
01-01-2019, 03:04 PM
I put cinnamon on my toast this morning...and sugar

Poet
01-01-2019, 03:05 PM
I put cinnamon on my toast this morning...and sugar

Do you own a pair of crocs?

SmilinAssasSin27
01-01-2019, 03:17 PM
Do you own a pair of crocs?

Only Doc Martens and Huaraches.

MOtorboat
01-01-2019, 03:23 PM
Do you own a pair of crocs?

Whoa. What’s wrong with cinnamon sugar toast?

Poet
01-01-2019, 03:39 PM
Whoa. What’s wrong with cinnamon sugar toast?

It's not youthful. It's not style. It's old fam.

It's not Mahomes, Goff, or a young gun. It's Vinny Testevarde.

SmilinAssasSin27
01-01-2019, 03:46 PM
Whoa. What’s wrong with cinnamon sugar toast?

Absolutely nothing

SmilinAssasSin27
01-01-2019, 03:47 PM
It's not youthful. It's not style. It's old fam.

It's not Mahomes, Goff, or a young gun. It's Vinny Testevarde.

Deiter Brock fam

Poet
01-01-2019, 03:48 PM
Deiter Brock fam

You're a King87 guy.

Joel
01-03-2019, 08:50 AM
CuJoel
No.

Shazam!
01-03-2019, 09:17 AM
CuJoel
No.

Hi Joel

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-03-2019, 10:45 AM
Joel!

Cugel
01-03-2019, 01:23 PM
I wonder how accurate this evaluation in the Denver Post is:


Ownership/management status: Complicated. Think “Game of Thrones,” only with fewer dragons and more lawyers. General manager John Elway is the face in the mirror and the face of the franchise, but several corners of the fan base are becoming less convinced that’s a good thing.

I suppose it's a good thing we don't have dragons eating failed coaches in the NFL, maybe? At least it would be a question "when do you let your dragon eat the head coach?" Because that might be a serious impediment to recruitment! "But, you had Drogon the Black eat your last coach! I don't want the job!"

I don't want to see Elway leave the team. I don't know that anybody who would replace him would be better, and we know Elway is absolutely dedicated to winning at almost any cost. He can't stand to lose at ping-pong, and as he said at his presser, he is less happy about losing now than when he was a player.

This is normal. As a player has a bad game, he can get out on the field next week and forget about it and do well. Elway has to wait for perhaps several years for his GM moves to pan out. And if they don't there's no quick fix he can implement.

But, the Post makes a point: this coaching job is not the best one out there, and it probably doesn't help that Elway wants to put Gary Kubiak in as OC. That probably eliminates a lot of coaching candidates who would not be happy having their OC appointed for them, rather than being able to choose that guy themselves.

That lack of power in the head coach didn't work for Vance Joseph, and it might not work for Chuck Pagano either.

Northman
01-04-2019, 04:42 PM
So is there any truth to the news that Elway is considering trading Von? I saw some Bronco fans talking about in our Bronco FB group but have not seen any source. Anybody hear anything about this?

Northman
01-04-2019, 04:45 PM
I found this from the Bleacher Report but dont know how vaild it is.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2813968-john-elway-says-broncos-might-explore-potential-von-miller-trade-in-offseason


Denver Broncos (http://bleacherreport.com/denver-broncos) general manager John Elway (http://bleacherreport.com/john-elway) isn't ruling out the possibility of trading superstar pass-rusher Von Miller this offseason.According to Jon Heath (https://broncoswire.usatoday.com/2019/01/04/denver-broncos-news-john-elway-did-not-rule-out-von-miller-trade/) of USA Today's Broncos Wire, Elway didn't label Miller as untouchable when asked about potentially trading him during the team's end-of-season press conference: "I think we're going to visit all that. I think we have to look at all the possibilities and get an evaluation of that."
Miller enjoyed one of the best seasons of his career in 2018 with 48 tackles, 14.5 sacks, four forced fumbles and one interception en route to being named a Pro Bowler and Second Team All-Pro.
Sponsored Content




While Elway acknowledged that Miller had a strong year, he also expressed his belief that the seven-time Pro Bowler can be even better: "We're trying to evaluate what went on and then find solutions. One of the solutions is that we're going to need our core guys to play better. Von, he had a good year this year. Can Von play better? Yeah, I think Von can play better. That's part of the new thing when that comes in with the next coach."

Denver has missed the playoffs in three straight seasons, and it is a team in transition after firing head coach Vance Joseph on the heels of a 6-10 finish in 2018.
The 29-year-old Miller is a potential future Hall of Famer, and the 2011 No. 2 overall draft pick is first on the team's all-time sacks list with 98.0.

Hawgdriver
01-04-2019, 09:52 PM
No.

Hey buddy. Good to see you. Happy new year!