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View Full Version : Would Broncos fans rather have Rosen or Allen over Chubb right now?



Broncoknight30
10-19-2018, 09:55 AM
Just wondering where everyone is. No, we don't know how things will play out. I jumped the gun a bit about Chubb, cause I was foolishly comparing to him to Khalil Mack. He is looking like a nice complientary piece and being that the Broncos will be needing to deal with Mahomes over the next decade, I think that pick looks pretty damn good. As of right now.


Nearly half way through the season, would we have rather had Josh Allen or Rosenberg over Chubb?

CoachChaz
10-19-2018, 10:05 AM
Chubb was the best player available...by far, and a competent pass defense is necessary in today's NFL. If Darnold or Mayfield had been available, this might be a different conversation, but I always preferred Chubb over Allen and Rosen.

Cugel
10-19-2018, 10:26 AM
Let's at least be totally honest about this stuff.

The reason Elway drafted Chubb and not Allen or Rosen was that he thought


"we can win with a great defense, like we did in 2015. Maybe a little better offense, because Keenum will be better than Peyton with a torn foot-tendon and unable to throw, but not a LOT better, and a defense that isn't historically great, because we no longer have Malik Jackson or especially HOF DeMarcus Ware, but still great combo.

"We'll strengthen the OL, recreate the ferocious rush defense by drafting Chubb, and get a couple of RBs and a WR who don't suck and we'll compete to go deep in the playoffs, if not SB! And developing a rookie QB for 2 or three years isn't for us! We want to win now!"

It didn't work because:

1. The defense wasn't great or even good since they dropped Wade, and lost Jackson, Trevathan, TJ Ward, and Talib - until last night.

2. Keenum was worse than advertised.

3. The OL wasn't fixed and couldn't pass-block my grandmother. And she's been dead since 1980.

4. Bolles is proving an embarrassing first round bust to add to the embarrassing number of first and second rounders they've wasted (Sylvester Williams, Ty Sambrailo, Paxton Lynch, Cody Latimer, Montee Ball, etc., etc.)

5. Still no TEs (and Jake Butt whom they were counting on to have a big season is back on IR and may never stay off it).

6. The Secondary isn't the No-Fly Zone without Talib - until last night.

So the failures of this team isn't VJ's fault or Keenum's fault. The fault for the shoddy design lies with #7 all the way. HE is the reason this team has sucked. His TERRIBLE drafting for 4 years prior to this year. Even a blind pig can find a truffle once in a while, but Elway proved unable to find a decent draft pick. And so behind a crust of ageing SB veterans they had, virtually nothing.

Until this season, and this year's promising draft was proving too little, too late.

Now does this prove that Elway should have drafted Rosen or Josh Allen? No. Chubb is looking like a future All-Pro after racking up 6.5 sacks in his first 7 games. He's had 5 in two weeks. True, the Cardinals will go 1-15 this year, and fight with the Raiders for the #1 overall pick, but the Rams are a great team and Goff is a very good QB and he sacked him 3 times in a close game.

So, the problem certainly isn't Chubb who is exactly what was advertised - an impact pass rusher after they moved him back to his natural position - DE rather than stand-up outstide LB. He has nothing but greatness ahead of him!

As for Rosen? Last night we saw a LOT of why 1/2 the league passed on him. Not just the top 10 teams, but all the other teams that needed or drafted a QB (including the Patriots, Steelers, Ravens, etc.)

As for Allen? 54% completion %, 1 TDs, 4 INTs, and a passer rating of 61.8. So far, bust and now he's injured and out for a while.

But of course it would be idiotic to judge either of these QBs by their first 6 games as rookies on pretty bad teams. Elway himself looked terrible his rookie year, and pretty much year two as well.

So, it takes a while, and sometimes a guy who looks great as a rookie isn't (RGIII).

We won't really know for 3 years whether either of these guys will playoff winning QBs (would you judge Andy Dalton by his regular season stats, or Alex Smith?) But, for now, it looks like Chubb was the best of them. :2thumbs:

Cugel
10-19-2018, 10:45 AM
The other option which fans and media criticize Elway for is not moving up to #3 in the draft, trading with the Colts and drafting Sam Darnold.

Darnold certainly looked good beating the Broncos, but he's barely 21 years old and will take a while to really develop. Again we won't know for years if he's really the next Joe Namath, or rather the next flash in the pan like the Butt-fumbler (who actually led the Jets to the AFC Championship Game twice before flaming out totally).

And think of what the Jets gave up to move up 4 spots to get him? A first and 2 second rounders this year, and a 2nd rounder next year. 4 picks for 1 guy.

They say "if he's our franchise QB for the next 10 years it was worth it!" OH? And WHEN will it be worth it?

Because the Jets aren't going anywhere the next couple of years without any draft picks to strengthen them despite being 3-3 so far.

So, it's a wild risk taking that strategy and it usually pays off -- for the next head coach and GM after they FIRE the ones who made that trade.

Northman
10-19-2018, 10:48 AM
Chubb was the right call because of the Keenum signing. And while i dont think Allen is that good i dont think Rosen would have had a problem here. Chubb or not the team is still below .500. Just like some people jumped the gun with Chubb people are jumping the gun with Allen and Rosen.

Shazam!
10-19-2018, 10:48 AM
I personally don't think one had to spend a 1st or 2nd pick on a QB to be successful.

Only top QBs to win the Super Bowl last 20 years has been Elway, Eli Manning and Peyton Manning.

Poet
10-19-2018, 10:59 AM
I personally don't think one had to spend a 1st or 2nd pick on a QB to be successful.

Only top QBs to win the Super Bowl last 20 years has been Elway, Eli Manning and Peyton Manning.

Is that the first or second pick overall, or first or second round selections overall?

CoachChaz
10-19-2018, 11:05 AM
Is that the first or second pick overall, or first or second round selections overall?

Not really sure where he's going with that. Only QB's to win a Super Bowl in the last 20 years that weren't round 1 or 2 picks have been Brady, Foles, Wilson, Johnson

BroncoJoe
10-19-2018, 11:06 AM
Well, he did say "1st or 2nd pick", not round.

CoachChaz
10-19-2018, 11:08 AM
Well, he did say "1st or 2nd pick", not round.

Fair. It did read sort of vague though.

Poet
10-19-2018, 11:15 AM
Well, he did say "1st or 2nd pick", not round.

I just wanted to make sure I understood the point.

Northman
10-19-2018, 11:23 AM
Fair. It did read sort of vague though.

Agreed. He didnt list Ben or Rodgers and both were first round picks.

CoachChaz
10-19-2018, 11:25 AM
Agreed. He didnt list Ben or Rodgers and both were first round picks.

As was Dilfer...and Brees was barely round 2.

Poet
10-19-2018, 11:25 AM
Agreed. He didnt list Ben or Rodgers and both were first round picks.

I'm not going to lie, I asked the question because if it was interpreted in a literal fashion the point meant almost nothing. If it was interpreted the other way then it would be wildly incorrect.

Shazam!
10-19-2018, 11:32 AM
Top meaning Top 5 pick people. Wasnt it obvious?

CoachChaz
10-19-2018, 11:33 AM
Top meaning Top 5 pick people. Wasnt it obvious?

Apparently not.

Poet
10-19-2018, 11:34 AM
Top meaning Top 5 pick people. Wasnt it obvious?

Then why did you say first or second?

This validates my question my brother. Oh...oh my.

Northman
10-19-2018, 11:35 AM
For me its not about whether or not you can win a SB without a Franchise/HOF QB, its been done a few times in history. But the reality is especially in the last 30 or so years that for teams that make it regularly to the SB it has involved the team having a franchise/HOF caliber QB on the squad. Its not speculation, its not an opinion, its fact. Even for a guy like Eli who many feel isnt quite a HOF QB he is the Giants franchise QB, he is not a flash in a pan kind of guy like Foles, Dilfer, or Johnson.

Northman
10-19-2018, 11:35 AM
Top meaning Top 5 pick people. Wasnt it obvious?

Not really. Lol

Hawgdriver
10-19-2018, 12:00 PM
It is what it is. We need a QB. Chubb is a fine player. We roll.

underrated29
10-19-2018, 12:05 PM
We have The Chad on the roster. Just need to play him. Cannot believe after being up by 30 + points that we did not put him in the game. I thought for sure afer halftime we would. Easily. Then the 4th quarter. Cannot understand that move. not at all.

The Glue Factory
10-19-2018, 12:31 PM
We have The Chad on the roster. Just need to play him. Cannot believe after being up by 30 + points that we did not put him in the game. I thought for sure afer halftime we would. Easily. Then the 4th quarter. Cannot understand that move. not at all.

Fox didn't put Brock in for Manning until late in the 4th quarter even though we were up nearly 30 points on the Raiders in the last game of 2014. BUT, getting Kelly some game time would have been prudent at some point in the 4th.
You get the torches, I'll get the pitchforks. We'll have VeJayJay's head by morning!

dogfish
10-19-2018, 12:37 PM
they don't want the fans chanting for kelly the next time numbnuts throws a bad pick. . .

BroncoJoe
10-19-2018, 12:44 PM
they don't want the fans chanting for kelly the next time numbnuts throws a bad pick. . .

This, plus it's not like they'd really let him do anything. Run the ball only.

underrated29
10-19-2018, 12:54 PM
We are not making the playoffs. We need to find out what we have in Kelly before the draft. This must be done. I think once we get eliminated we may just go ahead and do that, but god this staff is so incompetent that I am just not sure they will.

Broncoknight30
10-19-2018, 12:59 PM
For me its not about whether or not you can win a SB without a Franchise/HOF QB, its been done a few times in history. But the reality is especially in the last 30 or so years that for teams that make it regularly to the SB it has involved the team having a franchise/HOF caliber QB on the squad. Its not speculation, its not an opinion, its fact. Even for a guy like Eli who many feel isnt quite a HOF QB he is the Giants franchise QB, he is not a flash in a pan kind of guy like Foles, Dilfer, or Johnson.

I have never thought eli was all that. In 2007, for instance I believe he was the 27th rated passer, and while he did get the MVP, it was clearly the Giants defense behind that NASCAR DL that stifled the Pats offense to 14 points that won it.

The list of QBs that won it that sort of rode the coattails is longer than we think. I do put eli in that category. Hostettler, Rypien, even Plunkett who was a bit of a journey guy.

Broncoknight30
10-19-2018, 01:05 PM
We are not making the playoffs. We need to find out what we have in Kelly before the draft. This must be done. I think once we get eliminated we may just go ahead and do that, but god this staff is so incompetent that I am just not sure they will.

I agree. Unfortunately for us as fans who don't fully understand how much economics effects decisions like that, get frustrated.

Often times, it is more than just a small part of a decision. Keenum makes me sick, and I am confident chad kelly could be better. He could not be worse!!! Anyway, I could be wrong but I do think they are avoiding that, for possible economic ramifications.

MOtorboat
10-19-2018, 01:14 PM
I wanted Rosen. I’ll stand by that, own up to saying that for six months.

dogfish
10-19-2018, 02:25 PM
I wanted Rosen. I’ll stand by that, own up to saying that for six months.

did you see his mopey face out there? somebody needs to do a smokin' josh rosen meme. . .

Denver Native (Carol)
10-19-2018, 02:33 PM
We are not making the playoffs. We need to find out what we have in Kelly before the draft. This must be done. I think once we get eliminated we may just go ahead and do that, but god this staff is so incompetent that I am just not sure they will.

Might be too early to declare that we are not making the playoffs.

wayninja
10-19-2018, 02:42 PM
Your lack of faith is disturbing. Our epic SB run is now in day 2.

GEM
10-19-2018, 02:48 PM
did you see his mopey face out there? somebody needs to do a smokin' josh rosen meme. . .

Dude looks like he's either:

a. High as a kite all the time
b. Has a saved seat on the short bus and wears a helmet full time

Nomad
10-19-2018, 05:29 PM
Dude looks like he's either:

a. High as a kite all the time
b. Has a saved seat on the short bus and wears a helmet full time

LoL!

Valar Morghulis
10-19-2018, 06:38 PM
Dude looks like he's either:

a. High as a kite all the time
b. Has a saved seat on the short bus and wears a helmet full time

C) broncowave

Davii
10-19-2018, 07:11 PM
C) broncowave

Isn’t that the same as “C). Both A and B”?

Nomad
10-19-2018, 07:13 PM
I faintly remember a pic of BWave. I don't recall him having the droopy look like Rosen.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-19-2018, 07:17 PM
I deliberated over this question for a while because:

Barkley and Chubb were the two best players in the draft
Rosen has a lot of upside; and arm talent & QB is THE position.

At the end of the day I’ll take the player who is already performing at a pro bowl level.

HORSEPOWER 56
10-19-2018, 09:19 PM
Was Chubb the right pick? Yes. Do we still need a starting caliber NFL QB? Undoubtedly. Damn I wish we could see Kelly in real game action.

Simple Jaded
10-20-2018, 12:17 AM
If Elway thought Keenum would ever be better than PFM at anything football related he should be fired.

Simple Jaded
10-20-2018, 12:28 AM
Did Cugel just go from blaming everything on #7 in one post to defending him in the next?

Bi-polar much?

And when did they move Chubb to DE?

BroncoJoe
10-20-2018, 08:20 AM
Did Cugel just go from blaming everything on #7 in one post to defending him in the next?

Bi-polar much?

And when did they move Chubb to DE?

He likes to cover all the bases so he can claim he was right.

NightTerror218
10-20-2018, 10:59 AM
As of today Miller is #1 in sacks with chubb right coming it at like #5

elwayisgod
10-22-2018, 09:32 PM
QB knowing the class this year is not as deep. Fricking with our OL and Def that has regressed, doesn't matter anyways. Oak is selling and Chucky is not Carr guy. #1, Case, Ray for him :)

I can dream cant I :)

Cugel
10-23-2018, 10:13 AM
Was Chubb the right pick? Yes. Do we still need a starting caliber NFL QB? Undoubtedly. Damn I wish we could see Kelly in real game action.

Just wait a few weeks and you will. :coffee:

13220

Cugel
10-23-2018, 10:32 AM
Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
Did Cugel just go from blaming everything on #7 in one post to defending him in the next?

Bi-polar much?

And when did they move Chubb to DE?

Chubb is now playing DE and has been the last 2 games in which he has 5 sacks, in case you need to de-fog your glasses! He was a DE in college and has not made an easy transition to not having his hand in the dirt at OLB, so they moved him back.

As for Elway I was explaining his thinking. I don't think revisionary history is fair. Elway screwed up the draft for 4 years running, but this year's draft was very good.

Elway's thought was that this team could compete for a deep playoff run with a game manager in Case Keenum, plus an elite defense and that the defense could be made elite again with an impact player like Chubb.

He was probably right about Chubb. But, wrong about Keenum. And that caused him to waive the white flag and entertain offers for Demaryius Thomas, thus blowing up the season.

The problem for the Broncos is that next year they are losing a bunch of veterans off this team.

After Von Miller, the highest salaried players on the team would be:

1. Keenum - salary cap $21m, cap hit for dumping him $10m.
2. D.T. $17m including $14m base salary. cap hit from dumping him $3.5m
3. Wolfe - $10m, cap hit from dumping him $2.375m
4. Ron Leary - $9.3m. Cap hit from dumping him $1.75m.
5. Brandon Marshall - $9m. Cap hit from dumping him $4m.
6. Chris Harris - $8m, cap hit $866,000. And he's the one guy on this list they are probably keeping!
7. Darien Stewart $6.4m, cap hit from dumping him $2m.

Bradley Roby, Jared Veldheer, Domato Pecko, Trumaine Brock, Matt Paradis, Shane Ray, Shaquil Barrett, Billy Turner, Zach Kerr, Packman Jones, Jeff Heurmann, and Jordan Taylor are all UFA in 2019.

As a complete rebuilding team, probably with a rookie QB, I can't see them re-signing very many of them. Matt Paradis will cost them $10m a year to retain. Up till last game, there was no reason to keep Roby. Shaquil Barrett has outlived his usefulness in Denver, etc.

So, this year was Elway giving the veterans one last chance. It made sense, it meant (if it worked) that the Broncos would be competitive for a playoff berth in 2018. It just flat didn't work because Elway screwed up the draft for years, and the team was lacking in depth and sufficient talent to compete this year. That and Keenum turned out to suck.

Cugel
10-23-2018, 10:43 AM
For me its not about whether or not you can win a SB without a Franchise/HOF QB, its been done a few times in history. But the reality is especially in the last 30 or so years that for teams that make it regularly to the SB it has involved the team having a franchise/HOF caliber QB on the squad. Its not speculation, its not an opinion, its fact. Even for a guy like Eli who many feel isnt quite a HOF QB he is the Giants franchise QB, he is not a flash in a pan kind of guy like Foles, Dilfer, or Johnson.

That's true. It's just that it is impossible to predict which QB in the draft is going to have a Hall of Fame career. Sometimes people predict that and are basically right (Luck - if the Colts had a decent OL to protect him).

But more often even the top 2 picks are good QBs, but not Hall of Fame worthy (Jared Goff and Carson Wentz so far, along with Pat Mahomes (#10), DeShaun Watson (#12), and other young QBs who have yet to prove themselves in the playoffs).

But, lots of times the QBs taken in the top 5 are flat disappointments - (Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota, Blake Bortles, RGIII, Jake Locker, Mark Sanchez).

Broncoknight30
10-23-2018, 11:45 AM
That's true. It's just that it is impossible to predict which QB in the draft is going to have a Hall of Fame career. Sometimes people predict that and are basically right (Luck - if the Colts had a decent OL to protect him).

But more often even the top 2 picks are good QBs, but not Hall of Fame worthy (Jared Goff and Carson Wentz so far, along with Pat Mahomes (#10), DeShaun Watson (#12), and other young QBs who have yet to prove themselves in the playoffs).

But, lots of times the QBs taken in the top 5 are flat disappointments - (Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota, Blake Bortles, RGIII, Jake Locker, Mark Sanchez).

Dont forget...

Paxton Lynch
Poopy pants cutler
Tebow
Gabbert
Weeden
Bradford
Jawalrus ruffles
Vince Young

BeefStew25
10-23-2018, 12:13 PM
Tebow beat the Steelers.

underrated29
10-23-2018, 12:13 PM
Might be too early to declare that we are not making the playoffs.

I wish it werent so, but it is.

EastCoastBronco
10-23-2018, 12:19 PM
The polling options don't match the question.
It's rigged, I tell you.

Simple Jaded
10-23-2018, 08:26 PM
That's true. It's just that it is impossible to predict which QB in the draft is going to have a Hall of Fame career. Sometimes people predict that and are basically right (Luck - if the Colts had a decent OL to protect him).

But more often even the top 2 picks are good QBs, but not Hall of Fame worthy (Jared Goff and Carson Wentz so far, along with Pat Mahomes (#10), DeShaun Watson (#12), and other young QBs who have yet to prove themselves in the playoffs).

But, lots of times the QBs taken in the top 5 are flat disappointments - (Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota, Blake Bortles, RGIII, Jake Locker, Mark Sanchez).
I would literally take all those disappointments over what the Broncos have rolled out there since PFM.

Cugel
10-23-2018, 10:03 PM
Dont forget...

Paxton Lynch
Poopy pants cutler
Tebow
Gabbert
Weeden
Bradford
Jawalrus ruffles
Vince Young

Vince Young #1 and JaWalrus Russell were top five picks, but the rest were not. Cutler was #11 for instance.

And then there are the QBs whom nobody predicted would be any good, but have won SBs (Russell Wilson, Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, Nick Foles). So, it's very difficult to predict QB success in the NFL.

And Elway didn't want to wait to develop another QB. Well, now he has no choice.

Realizing this he's waved the White Flag by shopping Demaryius Thomas and possibly other players we don't know about.

They should be shopping anybody who won't be here next year but who has a year left on their contract.

Cugel
10-23-2018, 10:06 PM
I would literally take all those disappointments over what the Broncos have rolled out there since PFM.

You wouldn't take them if "taking them" meant wasting a top 5 pick of the draft on one of them! You would "take them" if that simply meant picking one up in FA rather than paying $18m to Keenum, sure.

But, nobody could get any of those stiffs like Mariota and Winston, Gabbert or Sanchez without wasting a high first round draft pick on one of them.

Drafting one of the stiffs normally costs a GM and head coach their jobs. That's the price for picking and failing.

Cugel
10-23-2018, 10:11 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Denver Native (Carol) View Post
Might be too early to declare that we are not making the playoffs.


Elway has decided that or they wouldn't be shopping D.T. You don't see the Chefs shopping players who won't be on their 2019 roster 7 weeks into the season. They need EVERYBODY on their roster to compete for a championship!

Denver doesn't. Elway has concluded that their season is toast and is pulling the plug right now. This sends a clear message to the locker-room "you can try and rally the team and win more games, but we'd really rather you tanked so I can get a top 5 draft pick for 2019, and we're getting rid of you regardless of how you perform this season. If you're a veteran making decent money on this roster you're likely gone in 2019."

And you can bet that trading DT will go over about as well in the locker-room as trading TJ Ward right before last season did. And we all know what an amazing season the Broncos had in 2017!

Poet
10-23-2018, 10:14 PM
Didn't we cut Ward?

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-23-2018, 10:21 PM
Yes

Simple Jaded
10-23-2018, 10:22 PM
Didn't we cut Ward?


Si.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
10-23-2018, 10:25 PM
We’re multilingual up in this piece!

Simple Jaded
10-23-2018, 10:25 PM
Were multilingual up in this piece!

Horale!