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OrangeHoof
09-20-2018, 06:14 PM
After two weeks based on wins, stats, salary, etc., Who has made the best deal - Redskins (Smith), Vikings (Cousins) or Broncos (Keenum)?

I ask because Wash. gave up Cousins for Smith and Minny gave up Keenum for Cousins. You could say Broncos gave up Siemein for Keenum but that's not entirely accurate.

UnderArmour
09-20-2018, 06:25 PM
Still too early to tell. If I'm answering your thread, the Vikings clearly got the best deal of the 3 because Kirk has been absolutely balling out. The Redskins lost out, because it's pretty obvious Alex Smith is limited in what he can do to make plays. Case is 2-0, and in spite of turnovers, has done enough to win both those games.

The ultimate answer rests with playoff wins.

MOtorboat
09-20-2018, 06:31 PM
After two weeks?

Northman
09-20-2018, 06:33 PM
Still too early to tell. If I'm answering your thread, the Vikings clearly got the best deal of the 3 because Kirk has been absolutely balling out. The Redskins lost out, because it's pretty obvious Alex Smith is limited in what he can do to make plays. Case is 2-0, and in spite of turnovers, has done enough to win both those games.

The ultimate answer rests with playoff wins.

Thats how i feel, if based on just the players performance Kirk has killed it. They were a missed FG away from being 2-0.

Hawgdriver
09-20-2018, 07:19 PM
Thats how i feel, if based on just the players performance Kirk has killed it. They were a missed FG away from being 2-0.

Kirk has looked outstanding so far this season. I'd take him over any QB not named Rodgers.

dogfish
09-20-2018, 08:01 PM
the best deal is endlessly debatable, but the vikes got the best QB. . .

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-20-2018, 08:08 PM
After two weeks?

I’m not sure I made the right underwear purchase after 2 weeks.

Hawgdriver
09-20-2018, 08:13 PM
I need to really look at numbers before I could say spending that amount of money above replacement value is worth it at the QB position. It might be.

Shazam!
09-20-2018, 08:22 PM
Just saying Cousins has many more games under his belt and more experience, where Case has been bumped around some and has never gotten settled in. Its only 2 games.

Northman
09-20-2018, 08:30 PM
Meh, Keenum had opportunities to win the job but failed to do so. Cousins eventually won out between he and RGIII but Keenum never sold his employers that he would be the future for their franchises. Technically speaking Keenum is in the best situation outside of Minny with more talent on offense and he has not looked good so far with us.

TXBRONC
09-20-2018, 08:48 PM
Two weeks is way early to make any kind of sober assessment.

Dapper Dan
09-20-2018, 09:11 PM
Me because I saved 15% on my car insurance by switching to Geico.

Poet
09-20-2018, 09:21 PM
It's not about playoff wins - if the Viking lose a heartbreaker and Cousins plays great it doesn't mean the fluke win Keenum got over the Saints is validation.

When Cousins continues to put up good to great numbers, regardless of situation and supporting case, he will once again show he's superior to Keenum. The selling point on Keenum isn't his great production, unless you're a silly old man who makes bad and specious arguments.

And let's be honest, Cousins could get to the playoffs and shit the bed to the point where you're happier to have average Keenum because he doesn't cost a lot. That doesn't make him better.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-20-2018, 09:27 PM
I don’t know who got the better deal yet, but I do know Cousins is demonstrably better at throwing the deep ball. Case seems to float the ball on throws over 20 yards.

Poet
09-20-2018, 09:34 PM
I don’t know who got the better deal yet, but I do know Cousins is demonstrably better at throwing the deep ball. Case seems to float the ball on throws over 20 yards.

He's a demonstrably better QB. No one really can dispute that.

UnderArmour
09-22-2018, 11:04 AM
It's not about playoff wins - if the Viking lose a heartbreaker and Cousins plays great it doesn't mean the fluke win Keenum got over the Saints is validation.

When Cousins continues to put up good to great numbers, regardless of situation and supporting case, he will once again show he's superior to Keenum. The selling point on Keenum isn't his great production, unless you're a silly old man who makes bad and specious arguments.

And let's be honest, Cousins could get to the playoffs and shit the bed to the point where you're happier to have average Keenum because he doesn't cost a lot. That doesn't make him better.

It's always about playoff wins. If Kirk never wins a playoff game in a Viking uniform, ultimately that is what fans will remember about him for. Meanwhile, Case could play like crap and win a Super Bowl, and he'd always be a hero in Denver with Elway as the genius who signed him.

Tned
09-22-2018, 11:43 AM
the best deal is endlessly debatable, but the vikes got the best QB. . .

Two weeks is way to early to tell, and it "best deal" isn't really the big issue. If the Broncos were "sure" that one of the QBs would bring them to three Super Bowls, then I think paying $30 million a year vs. $20 million a year would be a no brainer they would have jumped at.

So, I think the best deal doesn't really enter in and the real question is who's the best quarterback.

As I said, two weeks is way to early, but based on the QB performance of all three, then the Broncos are running third as Keenum has not played well. The Broncos have won and he's made some big plays to make up for his far more common bad plays, but he's clearly playing at a lower and more inconsistent level than the other two, but hopefully that will change as the season goes on.

Poet
09-22-2018, 04:26 PM
It's always about playoff wins. If Kirk never wins a playoff game in a Viking uniform, ultimately that is what fans will remember about him for. Meanwhile, Case could play like crap and win a Super Bowl, and he'd always be a hero in Denver with Elway as the genius who signed him.

So much more goes into a playoff win, though. I don't care if KC doesn't win this season but plays great and his team fails him. We're not going to relive the whole PFM experience, man.

Your perception doesn't change the reality of quality of play.

Jsteve01
09-22-2018, 05:24 PM
It's always about playoff wins. If Kirk never wins a playoff game in a Viking uniform, ultimately that is what fans will remember about him for. Meanwhile, Case could play like crap and win a Super Bowl, and he'd always be a hero in Denver with Elway as the genius who signed him.

So much more goes into a playoff win, though. I don't care if KC doesn't win this season but plays great and his team fails him. We're not going to relive the whole PFM experience, man.

Your perception doesn't change the reality of quality of play.

Question ...even given what you view as his deficiencies kinger wouldnt you say he brings more than pfm did in 2015?

Poet
09-22-2018, 05:35 PM
Question ...even given what you view as his deficiencies kinger wouldnt you say he brings more than pfm did in 2015?

Yeah.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-22-2018, 06:26 PM
Unfortunately we don’t have the 2015 defense.

Poet
09-22-2018, 07:42 PM
2015 defense ****** teams so hard that they sounded like Dusty Rhodes.

Northman
09-22-2018, 07:48 PM
2015 defense ****** teams so hard that they sounded like Dusty Rhodes.

You got that right daddy-o.

Cugel
09-22-2018, 07:48 PM
Kirk has looked outstanding so far this season. I'd take him over any QB not named Rodgers.

That might be true IF you only took regular season into account. But, there are a LOT of QBs you'd rather have in the playoffs because they've proven they can win there and Cousins has not.

And until you do, nobody can know whether you'd be Tom Brady if given the chance -- or Andy Dalton.

Cousins' only playoff games were a loss to Seattle where he only threw 10 passes and completed three of them in relief, and a loss 35-18 to Aaron Rogers and Green Bay. He was 29-46 for 329 yards and 1 TD and was sacked 6 times.

That's not an exceptional playoff performance. Frankly Case Keenum was about as good for the Vikings. He at least won a playoff game with excellent play.

Right now for some reason he's throwing uncharacteristic picks, which has to stop immediately or they will start losing, badly. The pancake portion of the schedule is officially over. No more playing sad-sack teams like the Seahawks and Raiders!

After a tough game in Baltimore, where the Broncos have almost never won, the Broncos face the Chiefs the Jets and the Rams. The most probable scenario is that they lose at the Ravens, lose at home to the Chiefs, and then beat the woeful Jets before being crushed at home by the Rams in Wade Phillips' act of terrible revenge.

Don't you think that the minute Wade Phillips learned earlier this year that the Rams would be playing the Broncos, that he started thinking about what special "got-ya!" tricks could he pull out of his bag?

He's got some things special saved up for Denver, you can bet. Things he hasn't shown at all in the pre-season games or during the season so far. He's been saving them for the Broncos to show them they should have paid him! This is his revenge game.

Cugel
09-22-2018, 08:03 PM
Unfortunately we don’t have the 2015 defense.

Nobody does! It's never the same twice for any historically great defense that is so good they can win a Super Bowl championship by themselves, basically without any help from the offense. That's only ever happened 3 times before: the '85 Bears, the 2000 Ravens and the 2002 Bucs. And none of them ever defended their Lombardi Trophy.

Other teams covet your players and coaches because they've been successful, and players retire or leave via FA when their contracts expire. Or they just get old and the team cuts them loose like T.J. Ward.

The '86 Bears had 4 Hall of Famers on them, just like in '85, like Richard Dent, Mike Singletary and Walter Peyton, but they didn't get back to the SB. Same thing for the Broncos.

DeMarcus Ware retired, Trevathan and Malik Jackson left via FA, the team got rid of TJ Ward and Aqib Talib, and Wade Phillips. The players and coaches who replaced these guys are not as good as they were. DeMarcus Ware alone was a Hall of Famer who left a huge leadership void that has never really been filled.

It's like you can never be young and in love for the first time again. That will never happen again for you or me. The 2015 Broncos will never happen again either. It happens in the NFL about once every ten years and never to the same team twice!

Hawgdriver
09-22-2018, 10:22 PM
That might be true IF you only took regular season into account. But, there are a LOT of QBs you'd rather have in the playoffs because they've proven they can win there and Cousins has not.

And until you do, nobody can know whether you'd be Tom Brady if given the chance -- or Andy Dalton.

Cousins' only playoff games were a loss to Seattle where he only threw 10 passes and completed three of them in relief, and a loss 35-18 to Aaron Rogers and Green Bay. He was 29-46 for 329 yards and 1 TD and was sacked 6 times.

That's not an exceptional playoff performance. Frankly Case Keenum was about as good for the Vikings. He at least won a playoff game with excellent play.

Right now for some reason he's throwing uncharacteristic picks, which has to stop immediately or they will start losing, badly. The pancake portion of the schedule is officially over. No more playing sad-sack teams like the Seahawks and Raiders!

After a tough game in Baltimore, where the Broncos have almost never won, the Broncos face the Chiefs the Jets and the Rams. The most probable scenario is that they lose at the Ravens, lose at home to the Chiefs, and then beat the woeful Jets before being crushed at home by the Rams in Wade Phillips' act of terrible revenge.

Don't you think that the minute Wade Phillips learned earlier this year that the Rams would be playing the Broncos, that he started thinking about what special "got-ya!" tricks could he pull out of his bag?

He's got some things special saved up for Denver, you can bet. Things he hasn't shown at all in the pre-season games or during the season so far. He's been saving them for the Broncos to show them they should have paid him! This is his revenge game.

I'd rather have Cousins than any QB not named Rodgers.

Poet
09-22-2018, 10:28 PM
I'd rather have Cousins than any QB not named Rodgers.

This seems a bit excessive, but I argued that with Cousins we were the class of the AFC, which I still think would be true.

Hawgdriver
09-22-2018, 10:46 PM
This seems a bit excessive, but I argued that with Cousins we were the class of the AFC, which I still think would be true.

Give me a name.

Poet
09-22-2018, 10:48 PM
Give me a name.

Thom. Wentz. Fun fact, the Vikings tried to get Brees before they went after KC. Also, if Andrew Luck is actually back, he's absurd.

Hawgdriver
09-22-2018, 11:32 PM
Thom. Wentz. Fun fact, the Vikings tried to get Brees before they went after KC. Also, if Andrew Luck is actually back, he's absurd.

Rather have Cousins. Thom and Brees have one foot out, plus they have A+ coaches. Maybe for 2018 I'd go for it with VJ, but not in the context of 'going forward' as from a deal, where 2019 is somewhat of a consideration. Wentz might be ok but he's hurt and is also coach-amplified.

Luck, agree hands down, but the ? is there about his status.

Yeah, I'd take Cousins over all but the NorCal kid.

dogfish
09-23-2018, 12:00 AM
ryan fitzpatrick. . .


:cool:

Cugel
09-23-2018, 03:48 AM
It's always about playoff wins. If Kirk never wins a playoff game in a Viking uniform, ultimately that is what fans will remember about him for. Meanwhile, Case could play like crap and win a Super Bowl, and he'd always be a hero in Denver with Elway as the genius who signed him.

This is more than just true. It's key. The BIGGEST factor in analyzing QBs for the Hall of Fame is championships. Some voters held it against Elway that "he never won the big one" until he finally did, and even Dan Marino had people argue against him for that reason.

If Kirk Cousins never wins a playoff game for the Vikings, then he's Andy Dalton. And the fans will never forgive him. He'll be regarded as a bust in Minnesota.

Northman
09-23-2018, 09:17 AM
Dont worry, Kirk will get some playoff wins because he is on a better squad now.

Northman
09-23-2018, 09:20 AM
There are some interesting parallels with Keenum and Plummer. Both players ended the prior season in the conference championship with 3 or more turnovers and then started the next season with 3 or more turnovers. And then of course Jake ended up playing not that great the following season until he got benched for a younger QB. Think history will repeat itself? lol

Poet
09-23-2018, 09:46 AM
Dont worry, Kirk will get some playoff wins because he is on a better squad now.

That roster is stacked, and it matters for QB's. Look at how Bradford is doing now versus how he was in Minnesota.

Jsteve01
09-23-2018, 09:56 AM
There are some interesting parallels with Keenum and Plummer. Both players ended the prior season in the conference championship with 3 or more turnovers and then started the next season with 3 or more turnovers. And then of course Jake ended up playing not that great the following season until he got benched for a younger QB. Think history will repeat itself? lol

Both similar. The big thing that people forget with Jake is that he also lost his biggest advocate in Kubes. Heimerdinger came in and stripped all the move and boot where plummer excelled. They essentially set him up to fail so they could start their shiny new toy

Northman
09-23-2018, 10:00 AM
I never bought into that because the bootleg had been used for quite a few years with success but started to not work as much anymore. I knew this when the last time Jake tried to bootleg on the Chiefs they didnt fall for it. While Kubes is a way better coordinator than Dinger i was just never sold on this idea that a vet QB all of a sudden sucked because coordinators changed. Guys like Brady, Elway, etc have had different coordinators during their time and still played at a high level. Jake was just a middle of the pack QB who didnt like to put extra work in like other QB's. While i think Jake enjoyed playing i think he only wanted to just show up on gameday and not much else.

Nomad
09-23-2018, 10:32 AM
ryan fitzpatrick. . .


:cool:

You got it wrong.....it's Fitzmagic. :D