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broncofaninfla
08-12-2018, 11:51 AM
I'm beginning to think the only reason the offense has looked so good in camp is because they have been playing the Denver defense. I just watched the first half again pausing each play. The starting unit looked VERY shaky last night. The DB and ILB play from the starting unit was putrid. Brandon Marshall's regression continues, he is now a huge liability in both pass and run defense and Z Anderson wasn't any better. They looked like third/fourth stringers out there with the starters, Marshalls play was as bad as any Bronco last night. As for the DB's Roby has been getting burned in practice and continued that trend last night against the Vikings. Add to it the no 3 spot is still wide open with mostly young and unproven DB's competing for that spot. There are times that good coaching can offset deficiencies but based on what I've seen from last season up until this point I don't see VJ or Woods being remotely good enough to offset this.

Thoughts?

OrangeHoof
08-12-2018, 01:27 PM
48 points is unacceptable but let's see what happens with a full game of Miller and Chubb before passing judgement. Hopefully they aren't like Watt and Clowney in Houston where they are never healthy at the same time. I liked some of what I saw from Jewell but I think he's going to be one that plays well in the box and may not be able to stay up in coverage. No QB plays well throwing on his ass. If we get better pressure, some of these "bleh" corners will look better.

Cugel
08-13-2018, 11:39 PM
Well, Elway decided he didn't need to pay Wade. Joe Woods does not have this unit playing like a championship defense.

They decided they didn't need Talib. And Bradley Roby got burned last Saturday. Badly. That's going to continue to happen. Roby might be a decent defender, but Talib is a Hall of Fame CB or damn near. The defense is not as talented at the back end as last year. And Yiadom got torched.

Meanwhile, Jamal Carter, who figured to play a significant role at S just got put on season ending IR with hamstring surgery. Things are not looking good on defense right now.

WARHORSE
08-14-2018, 12:41 AM
First of all, I acknowledge a ton of mistakes. However, this is a preseason game and while there was miscommunication going on, substitution gaffs, etc....everything is vanilla, including the effort.

Third preseason game, if the first team sub packages arent going in smoothly, you know its coaching.

And if the substitutions are going smooth......the rest of the coaching is probably going to have holes.

slim
08-14-2018, 12:47 AM
First of all, I acknowledge a ton of mistakes. However, this is a preseason game and while there was miscommunication going on, substitution gaffs, etc....everything is vanilla, including the effort.

Third preseason game, if the first team sub packages arent going in smoothly, you know its coaching.

And if the substitutions are going smooth......the rest of the coaching is probably going to have holes.

The other side of that coin is fugly. Take a quick peek and let me know what you think.

Cugel
08-15-2018, 06:25 AM
The other side of that coin is fugly. Take a quick peek and let me know what you think.

You want fugly? Take a look at this: That dude on the right is Cleopatra - from a coin she minted with Mark Anthony:

12819

But, that is still not as fugly as Vance Joseph's coaching.

Ground Control
08-18-2018, 05:23 AM
You want fugly? Take a look at this: That dude on the right is Cleopatra - from a coin she minted with Mark Anthony:

12819

But, that is still not as fugly as Vance Joseph's coaching.

Epic and historic comparison between a woman that had no control over her fate and another woman that had no control over her fate!

So, let's see what happens when Cleopatra gets to make the calls.

Ground Control
08-18-2018, 05:27 AM
I'm beginning to think the only reason the offense has looked so good in camp is because they have been playing the Denver defense. I just watched the first half again pausing each play. The starting unit looked VERY shaky last night. The DB and ILB play from the starting unit was putrid. Brandon Marshall's regression continues, he is now a huge liability in both pass and run defense and Z Anderson wasn't any better. They looked like third/fourth stringers out there with the starters, Marshalls play was as bad as any Bronco last night. As for the DB's Roby has been getting burned in practice and continued that trend last night against the Vikings. Add to it the no 3 spot is still wide open with mostly young and unproven DB's competing for that spot. There are times that good coaching can offset deficiencies but based on what I've seen from last season up until this point I don't see VJ or Woods being remotely good enough to offset this.

Thoughts?

No game planning on purpose for the very reason of learning from failures. Not that it justifies the extent of the burn but let's see what happens through the first few regular season games. Supposedly, the first team D has been doing fine against the Bears, with a sack orgy happening. Let's see....

Broncoknight30
08-18-2018, 05:39 AM
Well, Elway decided he didn't need to pay Wade. Joe Woods does not have this unit playing like a championship defense.

They decided they didn't need Talib. And Bradley Roby got burned last Saturday. Badly. That's going to continue to happen. Roby might be a decent defender, but Talib is a Hall of Fame CB or damn near. The defense is not as talented at the back end as last year. And Yiadom got torched.

Meanwhile, Jamal Carter, who figured to play a significant role at S just got put on season ending IR with hamstring surgery. Things are not looking good on defense right now.

Here are some interesting facts to back up your point.

The main discrepancy that separated those teams (the 2015 and 2017 teams) statistically, was the defensive pressure on QBs and turnover production. In 2015 (and 2016 for that matter)Broncos led the NFL or near the top in QB pressures and sacks (two related but separate stats.) That led them to be leaders in turnovers also.

In 2017, Broncos defense ranked in the lower half in ALL of those categories. Think about that. They ranked 22nd in the NFL in sack production. They were last in the NFL in fumbles. Bottom of the league in ints. That is all due to the lack of pressure produced by the 2017 defense.

Now, was that because of a lack of talent or the lack of Wade Philips? Well, take a look at what the Rams did in relation to how THEY IMPROVED in those key categories. For instance, the Rams were near the bottom of the league in QB pressures, sacks and turnovers in 2016. They rose significantly in those stats in 2017.

While the Broncos defense in 2017 did not have Demarcus Ware, and that had to lead to some drop off, I am sorry. Wade Philips was a big factor. He just understands how to dial up pressure. He understands how to use the talent he has. He did not have have Ware or Von in LA and yet they rose dramatically.

Anyway, I am hoping they get it done this year with Chubb. The main weakness for the team, is the staff walking the sidelines. If we cannot see the problem then we have a hard time playing that game connect the dots.

Just to recap......

Wade Philips goes to the Rams, and their defense IN ONE SEASON all of a sudden dramatically climbs in those crucial stats. They make the play offs for the first time in years.

In ONE season the Broncos defense, although ranked high as far as yards, dramatically drop in those crucial stats. They have an embarrassing season and most people point to the offense as THE problem.

Shazam!
08-18-2018, 06:24 AM
Well, Elway decided he didn't need to pay Wade. Joe Woods does not have this unit playing like a championship defense.

They decided they didn't need Talib. And Bradley Roby got burned last Saturday. Badly. That's going to continue to happen. Roby might be a decent defender, but Talib is a Hall of Fame CB or damn near. The defense is not as talented at the back end as last year. And Yiadom got torched.

Meanwhile, Jamal Carter, who figured to play a significant role at S just got put on season ending IR with hamstring surgery. Things are not looking good on defense right now.

You say 'they decided they didn't need Talib' but in fairness management cant pay everybody. Elway has been good at managing the Cap.

Shazam!
08-18-2018, 06:25 AM
You want fugly? Take a look at this: That dude on the right is Cleopatra - from a coin she minted with Mark Anthony:

12819

But, that is still not as fugly as Vance Joseph's coaching.

Epic and historic comparison between a woman that had no control over her fate and another woman that had no control over her fate!

So, let's see what happens when Cleopatra gets to make the calls.

Hey I named my son after Marc Antony lol

I never saw that hook nose lol

Cugel
08-18-2018, 07:35 AM
You say 'they decided they didn't need Talib' but in fairness management cant pay everybody. Elway has been good at managing the Cap.

NFL teams can "manage to pay" anybody they really want to. It's a complete P.R. B.S. job by the owners and managers to fool the fans into thinking that "we can't afford this or that player". What that really means is that "we don't want to pay that guy".

The salary cap is actually a fiction. There are so many loopholes that NFL teams could spend like the NY Yankees if they really wanted to. That would cut their operating profit though and the dividends the owners receive on their investment would decline significantly.

They might not even be able to do it sustainably year after year. They could certainly have a window where they were outspending their revenues and financed that deficit spending by other means.

Multi-billion $ corporations can do that if they want - if their net share price is continually increasing, which it is and has been for every NFL franchise for years. Football is more profitable every single year as the value of their franchises keeps going up and up.

But, NFL owners don't want to do that, so they don't, and then they justify it to the fans by saying "we can't afford", but somehow, if they really want a player they almost always find a way to get him under contract and when they don't somehow they don't.

Broncoknight30
08-18-2018, 08:12 AM
NFL teams can "manage to pay" anybody they really want to. It's a complete P.R. B.S. job by the owners and managers to fool the fans into thinking that "we can't afford this or that player". What that really means is that "we don't want to pay that guy".

The salary cap is actually a fiction. There are so many loopholes that NFL teams could spend like the NY Yankees if they really wanted to. That would cut their operating profit though and the dividends the owners receive on their investment would decline significantly.

They might not even be able to do it sustainably year after year. They could certainly have a window where they were outspending their revenues and financed that deficit spending by other means.

Multi-billion $ corporations can do that if they want - if their net share price is continually increasing, which it is and has been for every NFL franchise for years. Football is more profitable every single year as the value of their franchises keeps going up and up.

But, NFL owners don't want to do that, so they don't, and then they justify it to the fans by saying "we can't afford", but somehow, if they really want a player they almost always find a way to get him under contract and when they don't somehow they don't.
Sorry, not buying this notion that the hard cap is "fictional." Some players are indeed willing to restructure their contracts, but many are not. Tom Brady for instance is the 17th highest paid QB in the NFL. It is not that the Pats have a productive QB. It is that they have a QB that productive at that price.

For those thinking that it is automatically QB production that determines wins or losses and championships, should consider that Aaron Rodgers has NOT even been to a SB since 2010 and that year they had the number 2 defense in the NFL. Their defense has not been close to that since they paid him his giant contract.

Drew Brees has also been VERY PRODUCTIVE and he has not been to a SB since 2009. They have had historically bad defenses AFTER they broke the bank on him.

The point is I do not think the hard cap is a myth. They can get creative, but then again only so creative. Teams cannot just sign a bunch of players to large contracts while us fans sit and stare. You don't think the media would notice that? How about us fans?


If Jerry could, Jerry would. Well, the fact that he isn't, is what makes it clear it is not the myth you are suggesting.

Cugel
08-18-2018, 11:07 AM
Sorry, not buying this notion that the hard cap is "fictional." Some players are indeed willing to restructure their contracts, but many are not. Tom Brady for instance is the 17th highest paid QB in the NFL. It is not that the Pats have a productive QB. It is that they have a QB that productive at that price.

For those thinking that it is automatically QB production that determines wins or losses and championships, should consider that Aaron Rodgers has NOT even been to a SB since 2010 and that year they had the number 2 defense in the NFL. Their defense has not been close to that since they paid him his giant contract.

Drew Brees has also been VERY PRODUCTIVE and he has not been to a SB since 2009. They have had historically bad defenses AFTER they broke the bank on him.

The point is I do not think the hard cap is a myth. They can get creative, but then again only so creative. Teams cannot just sign a bunch of players to large contracts while us fans sit and stare. You don't think the media would notice that? How about us fans?


If Jerry could, Jerry would. Well, the fact that he isn't, is what makes it clear it is not the myth you are suggesting.

You're thinking really, really small. In fact you are buying the entire NFL paradigm that teams have to "live within their revenue." No, they don't. :coffee:

The value of their franchises is constantly increasing. Thus, the share price and value of their stock is constantly going up. A corporation that is this profitable, with their FMV of the company just zooming up every year for 30 straight years, each one more profitable than the last, can do many things to raise revenue, not tied to current year earnings.

It's a simple accounting principle. They can convert a small portion of their equity into private securities transactions or simply borrow money against future earnings or equity position. Lots of ways to structure such transactions.

They don't want to do that, and since they are a monopoly they can force the players to accept contracts that are vastly less than their actual productive worth, when measured against the only measure that matters at all in business - their total stock value of their franchise.

In the case of Pat Bowlen he bought the team in 1984 for $78 million and Forbes Magazine states that the Broncos are worth $2,600,000,000. That's two-billion, six-hundred million dollars for the math challenged among you.

A total increase of over 33 times his original basis. That ladies and gents is what is called "a good investment."

Cugel
08-18-2018, 11:12 AM
Do you guys understand that there is no rule preventing a team from converting any amount of $ they want in a player contract into instant signing bonuses, which get pro-rated over the lifetime of the contract, enabling the team to have a salary roster a LOT bigger than the cap.

Any team could do this at any time. They just pay whatever players they want and pay for it by converting current roster contracts into long term future contracts, and giving the guaranteed money to the player now as a signing bonus. The player just gets the money they would eventually earn right now instead of later, it doesn't hurt him at all, just more money in his pocket sooner.

Of course you can get into trouble if you pick the wrong players, eventually. But, almost all NFL teams insist that they operate within current earning revenues. They just want to do that, and they do because they can force the players to accept it. They can cram down player salaries and pocket the profits in the form of the increased value of their franchises without paying the players salaries commensurate with the actual productivity of these "key employees."

If you don't know, ask any cpa at work what a corporation worth $2.6 billion with an annual growth rate in FMV of the company growing at a rate of about 10% per year for 35 years can do to obtain whatever money they want for current expenses, whenever they want.

Broncoknight30
08-18-2018, 11:22 AM
You're thinking really, really small. In fact you are buying the entire NFL paradigm that teams have to "live within their revenue." No, they don't. :coffee:

The value of their franchises is constantly increasing. Thus, the share price and value of their stock is constantly going up. A corporation that is this profitable, with their FMV of the company just zooming up every year for 30 straight years, each one more profitable than the last, can do many things to raise revenue, not tied to current year earnings.

It's a simple accounting principle. They can convert a small portion of their equity into private securities transactions or simply borrow money against future earnings or equity position. Lots of ways to structure such transactions.

They don't want to do that, and since they are a monopoly they can force the players to accept contracts that are vastly less than their actual productive worth, when measured against the only measure that matters at all in business - their total stock value of their franchise.

In the case of Pat Bowlen he bought the team in 1984 for $78 million and Forbes Magazine states that the Broncos are worth $2,600,000,000. That's two-billion, six-hundred million dollars for the math challenged among you.

A total increase of over 33 times his original basis. That ladies and gents is what is called "a good investment."
Oh trust me. I get that. When the owners were claiming they were "losing money" during that lockout a few years ago, I laughed.

Robert Kraft bought the Pats in 1994 for $174 million. By 2009, their valuation was around $1.5 billion. That is over a 900% increase.

Out of the top 20 most valuable franchises in ALL of sports in the WORLD in 2009, like 11 were NFL teams. Even the Jags, which is supposed to be the least valuable teams, grew over 700% in valuation from 1994 to 2009.

However, the hard cap is still there. I personally hate the hard cap. It makes me wonder why we even care about the draft every year.

I wish they would set up a system that would incentivize players to stay with the either the team drafted them or developed them.

Ziggy
08-18-2018, 12:45 PM
Joe Woods is almost as clueless as Vance Joseph. Not a good combination for us.

ShaneFalco
08-18-2018, 01:09 PM
i dont like talking about the Defense anymore its gotten so bad. Losing Trevathan was just the start of a long line of awful decisions to ruin the d that broke records

UnderArmour
08-18-2018, 01:16 PM
Joe Woods is almost as clueless as Vance Joseph. Not a good combination for us.

I feel like the jury is still out. Joe Woods came in, and "fixed" a lot of things that Wade's defense neglected. The run defense was shored up, and the defense overall gave up fewer yards. Unfortunately, what fans and (hopefully) Woods realized, is that Wade had adapted to the NFL and fundamentally dared teams to try to win on the run alone. Most offenses are designed around the pass, and most quarterbacks get out of a rhythm if forced to hand the ball off or take short dump-offs for essentially an entire game.

I am hoping Woods is more of a risk-taker this year, but honestly I still liked Woods better than Jack Del Rio. IMO I would say: Wade>Woods=Dennis Allen>Del Rio. Hard to blame the guy at this point for not measuring up to Wade, because that blame really belongs with Elway and Joe Ellis.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-18-2018, 01:38 PM
Coaches coach and players make plays. Let’s not forget Wade was also responsible for the historically horrible defense in Houston that the Tim Tebow led offense managed to throw for over 300 yards and score over over 30 points.

Anyone with two eyeballs could see the talent difference on the field last year.

ChubbNYiadom
08-18-2018, 01:57 PM
i dont like talking about the Defense anymore its gotten so bad. Losing Trevathan was just the start of a long line of awful decisions to ruin the d that broke records

What has he done since leaving? Other than being injured, the broncos gambled on Marshall taking the next step and trevathan being injured, and they were half right, Danny hasn't been able to stay healthy but Marshall went from looking like he could be a great inside backer too a guy who looks average. He needs too be a lot more than average, cant be missing 3 assignments like last week and your a veteran.

ChubbNYiadom
08-18-2018, 02:01 PM
Coaches coach and players make plays. Let’s not forget Wade was also responsible for the historically horrible defense in Houston that the Tim Tebow led offense managed to throw for over 300 yards and score over over 30 points.

Anyone with two eyeballs could see the talent difference on the field last year.

The whole life will never be the same without wade coaching here thing is quite funny. A lot of people have adopted this mindset and I find it hilarious. Like still to this day talking about Wade is nonsense. TheI guy is gone

Broncoknight30
08-18-2018, 02:29 PM
Coaches coach and players make plays. Let’s not forget Wade was also responsible for the historically horrible defense in Houston that the Tim Tebow led offense managed to throw for over 300 yards and score over over 30 points.

Anyone with two eyeballs could see the talent difference on the field last year.

That historically bad defense of the Texans that Tebow lit up was in 2010. Wade Philips was not there. He arrived there in 2011 to 2013. In fact, he took that historically bad defense of 2010 (ranked 30th and last in pass), to 2nd in the NFL in 2011. In his 3 seasons with the Texans, they were always ranked in the top 10.

I believe the DC in 2010 (which is the year Tebow did that against the Texans) was Frank Bush.

Broncoknight30
08-18-2018, 02:37 PM
The whole life will never be the same without wade coaching here thing is quite funny. A lot of people have adopted this mindset and I find it hilarious. Like still to this day talking about Wade is nonsense. TheI guy is gone

Yeah, he is gone. Everything else that you thought was interesting with that post, was interestingly wrong.

Interesting to me anyway.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-18-2018, 02:52 PM
That historically bad defense of the Texans that Tebow lit up was in 2010. Wade Philips was not there. He arrived there in 2011 to 2013. In fact, he took that historically bad defense of 2010 (ranked 30th and last in pass), to 2nd in the NFL in 2011. In his 3 seasons with the Texans, they were always ranked in the top 10.

I believe the DC in 2010 (which is the year Tebow did that against the Texans) was Frank Bush.
To br fair, I think it’s both. I think we lost a great coach and a lot of talent.

Broncoknight30
08-18-2018, 03:01 PM
To br fair, I think it’s both. I think we lost a great coach and a lot of talent.

Partly talent. Then again you need to look at how the Rams ascended from 2016 to 2017.

Same basic talent. In fact they changed their defense from 4-3 to a 3-4.

This team lost some, but come on. Not that much.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-18-2018, 03:42 PM
Partly talent. Then again you need to look at how the Rams ascended from 2016 to 2017.

Same basic talent. In fact they changed their defense from 4-3 to a 3-4.

This team lost some, but come on. Not that much.

They lost Ware, Trevaithan, Malik Jackson and Ward. That’s a lot of talent, not to mention no production from Ray.

Broncoknight30
08-18-2018, 04:09 PM
They lost Ware, Trevaithan, Malik Jackson and Ward. That’s a lot of talent, not to mention no production from Ray.


They lost Malik and Trevethan 2 years ago. The lack of production from Ray could be coaching. Not putting him in the right spots etc.
For instance, Shane Ray had 8 sacks in 2016 under Philips. He had ONE with Woods. The Broncos were 4th in the NFL in sacks in 2016, and they did not have Malik or Trevathan. Demarcus Ware played in only 10 games and he played injured even when he was in there. I think he only had 4 sacks.

Weird though how players productions like Ray went down with woods, while the Rams defenders went up in 2017 with Philips. The Rams as a team went from 28th in the NFL in sacks in 2016 to 4th in 2017. The Broncos went from 4th in sacks to 22nd in 2017.

Philips makes a difference.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
08-18-2018, 04:37 PM
They lost Malik and Trevethan 2 years ago. The lack of production from Ray could be coaching. Not putting him in the right spots etc.
For instance, Shane Ray had 8 sacks in 2016 under Philips. He had ONE with Woods. The Broncos were 4th in the NFL in sacks in 2016, and they did not have Malik or Trevathan. Demarcus Ware played in only 10 games and he played injured even when he was in there. I think he only had 4 sacks.

Weird though how players productions like Ray went down with woods, while the Rams defenders went up in 2017 with Philips. The Rams as a team went from 28th in the NFL in sacks in 2016 to 4th in 2017. The Broncos went from 4th in sacks to 22nd in 2017.

Philips makes a difference.

I attributed Rays lack of production last year to injury.

We were also in the bottom third of the league against the run in 2016, which is one of the reasons we didn’t make the playoffs

Broncoknight30
08-18-2018, 05:22 PM
Not for nothing btw, but did anyone notice how that same Vikings team that looked like they were in midseason form against the Broncos Woods defense, looked like stale milquetoast against the Jags.

The GREAAAT Cousins was 3 for 8 and scored 3 points in the first half.

I know, I know. It is preseason. Yeaaah...