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View Full Version : Bucky Brooks all-rookie team. Looky-here it boasts 3 Broncos



Jsteve01
05-11-2018, 12:52 AM
Chubb was a lock. But it was fun to see my other two favorites from this class for immediate impact in Freeman and Josey Jewell. I have no qualms stating that Josey Jewell has very eerie similarities to Zach Thomas and His ridiculous instincts will more than compensate for any lack he has athletically

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000932032/article/2018-allrookie-team-josh-rosen-bradley-chubb-will-thrive

Simple Jaded
05-12-2018, 11:02 PM
Chubb was a lock. But it was fun to see my other two favorites from this class for immediate impact in Freeman and Josey Jewell. I have no qualms stating that Josey Jewell has very eerie similarities to Zach Thomas and His ridiculous instincts will more than compensate for any lack he has athletically

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000932032/article/2018-allrookie-team-josh-rosen-bradley-chubb-will-thrive

Plus, Todd Davis sucks.

Simple Jaded
05-12-2018, 11:04 PM
Sorry Hawg.

Hawgdriver
05-13-2018, 01:52 AM
Sorry Hawg.

Enjoy his greatness if you can.

dogfish
05-13-2018, 07:28 PM
i'm so not a fan of slow linebackers, but i can live with it if he plays like chris borland. . .

topscribe
05-13-2018, 07:41 PM
i'm so not a fan of slow linebackers, but i can live with it if he plays like chris borland. . .
Admittedly, Jewell may be relatively slow in shorts at the 40-yard dash. But he arrives pretty quickly on the football field . . .

Simple Jaded
05-13-2018, 11:46 PM
Enjoy his greatness if you can.

Ok, soon as that happens.

Hawgdriver
05-14-2018, 12:27 AM
Ok, soon as that happens.

You watch, he's going to de-cleat Gurley, Bell, Hunt, and Johnson this year. Going to do a in yo face jaded chest pump.

Simple Jaded
05-14-2018, 10:48 PM
You watch, he's going to de-cleat Gurley, Bell, Hunt, and Johnson this year. Going to do a in yo face jaded chest pump.

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

Davii
05-14-2018, 10:56 PM
I reject your reality and substitute my own.

I reject your rejection and reinsert Hawg's reality.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-14-2018, 11:11 PM
Where’s the triple dog dare?

dogfish
05-14-2018, 11:25 PM
You watch, he's going to de-cleat Gurley, Bell, Hunt, and Johnson this year. Going to do a in yo face jaded chest pump.

you forgot zeke elliot and alvin kamara. . .




Where’s the triple dog dare?

okay, let's not get too crazy here. . . i'd hate to see anyone get hurt. . .

Simple Jaded
05-16-2018, 10:52 PM
I reject your rejection and reinsert Hawg's reality.

Post reported.

This aggression will not stand.

NightTerror218
05-16-2018, 10:58 PM
I will take the next Gradishar

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-16-2018, 11:03 PM
I will take the next Gradishar

Why will he be any better than Spencer Larsen?

Hawgdriver
05-16-2018, 11:12 PM
Post reported.

This aggression will not stand.

It's been upright for a while now, slacker. It will remain so.

:heh:

dogfish
05-16-2018, 11:37 PM
It's been upright for a while now, slacker. It will remain so.

:heh:

this isn't 'nam, hawg. . . there are rules!

Hawgdriver
05-16-2018, 11:42 PM
this isn't 'nam, hawg. . . there are rules!

Jaded is all about the punji traps, I'm all about the claymores.

Jsteve01
05-16-2018, 11:53 PM
I will take the next Gradishar

Why will he be any better than Spencer Larsen?

Much better instincts. Much nastier. And the 4.8 time at the Combine is slower than he is in real life. That's just a fact. He ran in the mid four sixes at his pro day and the tape shows him to be pretty quick. He's not Lavonte David or any of those other Ian gold type super fast linebackers, but you just cannot overstate his ability to address the play and deliver nasty hits

Ziggy
05-17-2018, 07:34 AM
Jewell has the instincts we've been looking for at ILBer since Danny T left. Unfortunately, it will probably take injuries to every other ILBer on the roster for Vance to start him. Hopefully, Elway told him when he kept him this offseason that he WILL let the best players play. Either way, Jewell should be fun to watch in preseason.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-17-2018, 08:56 AM
Pro day times are always at least .1 faster because they’re hand timed. I hope you guys are correct.

Simple Jaded
05-17-2018, 10:36 AM
If Jewell were a 4.6 guy he’d been a much higher draft pick, but, he’s a 4.8 guy.

He is right out of the Broncos preferred mold of ILB’s, marginal.

Simple Jaded
05-17-2018, 10:53 AM
Lmao

And to think there were people that wanted Denver to draft Roquan Smith, all they have to do is draft somebody out of the yellow pages and let fans convince themselves that that player is just as good.

BroncoJoe
05-17-2018, 10:59 AM
Lmao

And to think there were people that wanted Denver to draft Roquan Smith, all they have to do is draft somebody out of the yellow pages and let fans convince themselves that that player is just as good.

Congratulations on your position of GM with an NFL team!!

Uh... wait...

Simple Jaded
05-17-2018, 11:06 AM
Congratulations on your position of GM with an NFL team!!

Uh... wait...

Oh snap! The dreaded “You think you’re smarter than HC/GM/Reality TV Star” burn.

Enjoy the parade.

dogfish
05-17-2018, 01:41 PM
Jaded is all about the punji traps, I'm all about the claymores.

growing up, my best friend's dad was a three-tour 'nam vet. . . his third was cut short when he knelt on a punji stake while taking a hill-- it got infected, and sent him home with a purple heart. . . he told us the viet cong liked to pee on the stakes to increase the chances of infection. . .

topscribe
05-17-2018, 01:42 PM
If Jewell were a 4.6 guy he’d been a much higher draft pick, but, he’s a 4.8 guy.

He is right out of the Broncos preferred mold of ILB’s, marginal.
Well, if it's any comfort, Jewell is faster in pads than he is in shorts.

underrated29
05-17-2018, 02:35 PM
growing up, my best friend's dad was a three-tour 'nam vet. . . his third was cut short when he knelt on a punji stake while taking a hill-- it got infected, and sent him home with a purple heart. . . he told us the viet cong liked to pee on the stakes to increase the chances of infection. . .


Somewhere there is a joke about golden showers in this.....


.......Someone is going to find it and use it against me as if I am a golden shower aficionado.

(lets just blame slim)

Simple Jaded
05-17-2018, 03:21 PM
Well, if it's any comfort, Jewell is faster in pads than he is in shorts.

And leaps tall buildings in a single bound.

topscribe
05-17-2018, 03:27 PM
And leaps tall buildings in a single bound.
No, that's Von. Josey is still working on dog houses . . .

Simple Jaded
05-17-2018, 07:42 PM
No, that's Von. Josey is still working on dog houses . . .

What kind of dog? Chihuahua?

Jsteve01
05-17-2018, 10:02 PM
No, that's Von. Josey is still working on dog houses . . .

What kind of dog? Chihuahua?


I realize he's not super fast. But the guy is nasty, has good ball skills. Create turnovers. Has much better instincts than Todd Davis and works well in space. He's not Roquan but who is. All American. Big Ten defensive player of the year. And that was some pretty good defensive players in the conference. I think you'll be all right

topscribe
05-18-2018, 12:32 AM
I realize he's not super fast. But the guy is nasty, has good ball skills. Create turnovers. Has much better instincts than Todd Davis and works well in space. He's not Roquan but who is. All American. Big Ten defensive player of the year. And that was some pretty good defensive players in the conference. I think you'll be all right
I'm reminded of Zach Thomas who played for the Miami Dolphins. Undersized, nothing
special athletically. Until the kickoff. Then something happened inside him. I'm hoping for
the same thing with Jewell. Probably not, but wouldn't that be nice?

Poet
05-18-2018, 04:47 PM
Our WR's won't standout because CK is CK.

BroncoJoe
05-18-2018, 04:49 PM
Our WR's won't standout because CK is CK.

MN's WR's weren't "studs" until CK was their QB.

Just saying...

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-18-2018, 04:49 PM
Our WR's won't standout because CK is CK.

Stefon Diggs?

Poet
05-18-2018, 04:53 PM
MN's WR's weren't "studs" until CK was their QB.

Just saying...

Diggs was a good WR before CK.

CK was one of the worst deep ball passers, Joe.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/deep-ball-project

Case Keenum was the least efficient downfield passer, surprising since he led the league in overall passing DVOA. He forced the highest amount of inaccurate completions with 15, and constantly threw the ball to defenders, getting away with dropped interceptions. Though he didn't have the lowest accuracy percentage, the inaccurate completions, interceptions, and dropped picks severely lowered Keenum's efficiency score.

Now, if we look at some of the better passers, not all where golden on deep ball passing. That's true. But almost all of them are proven. I'm naturally an optimistic man. Not for CK.

BroncoJoe
05-18-2018, 05:02 PM
I'm naturally an optimistic man.

This is provably false. Sorry King. You've lost your pants.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-18-2018, 05:06 PM
Diggs was a good WR before CK.

CK was one of the worst deep ball passers, Joe.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/deep-ball-project

Case Keenum was the least efficient downfield passer, surprising since he led the league in overall passing DVOA. He forced the highest amount of inaccurate completions with 15, and constantly threw the ball to defenders, getting away with dropped interceptions. Though he didn't have the lowest accuracy percentage, the inaccurate completions, interceptions, and dropped picks severely lowered Keenum's efficiency score.

Now, if we look at some of the better passers, not all where golden on deep ball passing. That's true. But almost all of them are proven. I'm naturally an optimistic man. Not for CK.

DT looked good with Orton. Diggs was the leading receiver in the league with CK, that’s better than good, that’s elite. CK may never be an all pro, but as long as he doesn’t turn the ball over it will be evident if our receivers have talent.

BroncoJoe
05-18-2018, 05:08 PM
A receiver is no better then his QB.

Poet
05-18-2018, 05:11 PM
A receiver is no better then his QB.

Some WRs have done well with bad QBs.

BroncoJoe
05-18-2018, 05:11 PM
Some WRs have done well with bad QBs.

Name one.

Poet
05-18-2018, 05:11 PM
DT looked good with Orton. Diggs was the leading receiver in the league with CK, that’s better than good, that’s elite. CK may never be an all pro, but as long as he doesn’t turn the ball over it will be evident if our receivers have talent.
I’m going to have another I told you so. And not turning the ball over doesn’t make you good.

Poet
05-18-2018, 05:16 PM
Name one.

Hopkins. Fitzgerald. Rice broke records one year with three different QBs. A.J. Green. Alshon Jeffry in Chicago with cutler and with McNown. Andre Johnson before schaub.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-18-2018, 07:09 PM
I’m going to have another I told you so. And not turning the ball over doesn’t make you good.

In what way? Are you trying to lump my argument in with something else where you prove me wrong about CK?

I’m not saying I expect him to be good. That’s an argument you’re having with someone else....

slim
05-18-2018, 07:17 PM
Hopkins. Fitzgerald. Rice broke records one year with three different QBs. A.J. Green. Alshon Jeffry in Chicago with cutler and with McNown. Andre Johnson before schaub.

Yawn

Poet
05-18-2018, 07:28 PM
Yawn

Meh.

slim
05-18-2018, 08:02 PM
Meh.

Are Theilen and Diggs substantially better than DT and Sanders?

Poet
05-18-2018, 08:31 PM
Are Theilen and Diggs substantially better than DT and Sanders?

I don't know because TS was so bad he wasted DT and ES. But they're kinda older now.

I do know that our long ball game is going to suck balls.

topscribe
05-18-2018, 08:55 PM
I don't know because TS was so bad he wasted DT and ES. But they're kinda older now.

I do know that our long ball game is going to suck balls.
Why, do you think DT and ES have slowed that much?

slim
05-18-2018, 08:59 PM
Why, do you think DT and ES have slowed that much?

Because they played with a shitty QB.

dogfish
05-18-2018, 09:28 PM
Hopkins. Fitzgerald. Rice broke records one year with three different QBs. A.J. Green. Alshon Jeffry in Chicago with cutler and with McNown. Andre Johnson before schaub.

DT with timmy tebow. . . :salute:

slim
05-18-2018, 09:33 PM
DT with timmy tebow. . . :salute:

Do you remember the game against KC where 15 completed like 3 passes on the day? One was to Decker for like a 50 yard TD. lol

dogfish
05-18-2018, 10:42 PM
Do you remember the game against KC where 15 completed like 3 passes on the day? One was to Decker for like a 50 yard TD. lol

shit, wasn't that like every game he played?

topscribe
05-18-2018, 11:15 PM
Because they played with a shitty QB.
King was referring to the bad long ball game he thinks the Broncos are going to have.

So I was just wondering. The Vikings didn't have a bad one last year . . .

Poet
05-18-2018, 11:38 PM
https://fullpresscoverage.com/2017/12/27/keenums-deep-balls-have-to-improve/

He's not a gifted deep ball passer. And that's not necessarily a requirement, but it's more than nice. In the past we've seen teams stack the box and take the run game away. The fear is that if he isn't capable with the deep ball, it can impact him negatively. Last season, CK was on a team that ran the ball a ton, even when it wasn't effective. They had that luxury because of the defense that the Vikings had.

CK isn't scared to sling the ball, I will give him that. But if you read the first link, on deep balls especially, he had a lot of dropped picks. If one goes into the analysis, there's a lot of things that take the shine off of CK.

JPPT1974
05-19-2018, 12:46 AM
Yeah as someone needs to be picking up the slack on deep balls. And really think that C.K. needs to work on that. Otherwise a great addition to the team.

TXBRONC
05-19-2018, 09:13 AM
This is provably false. Sorry King. You've lost your pants.

That is something you could never say about Slim.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
05-19-2018, 09:57 AM
That is something you could never say about Slim.

He wears dresses?!

TXBRONC
05-19-2018, 11:32 AM
He wears dresses?!

No, Slim doesn't wear pants by his own admission. :tsk:

topscribe
05-19-2018, 11:43 AM
https://fullpresscoverage.com/2017/12/27/keenums-deep-balls-have-to-improve/

He's not a gifted deep ball passer. And that's not necessarily a requirement, but it's more than nice. In the past we've seen teams stack the box and take the run game away. The fear is that if he isn't capable with the deep ball, it can impact him negatively. Last season, CK was on a team that ran the ball a ton, even when it wasn't effective. They had that luxury because of the defense that the Vikings had.

CK isn't scared to sling the ball, I will give him that. But if you read the first link, on deep balls especially, he had a lot of dropped picks. If one goes into the analysis, there's a lot of things that take the shine off of CK.
I can always appreciate a documented argument.

So Keenum doesn't have the Favre-esque arm that can scare a defense to death at any time
in a game, but what he can do is to create some open receivers deep through a good play-
action game. That is how the Vikings had a good deep game. They ran and ran the ball, then
took the open shot. Keenum is good at play-action, so that is what he needs to do.

DenBronx
05-24-2018, 02:15 PM
Players on defense are already noticing the intensity of Josey Jewell. Wouldn't be shocked to see him win the starting job soon. He was a tackling machine in college. #outlawjoseyjewell


Brandon Marshall #Broncos @1043TheFan "I like Josey Jewell. Hes a smart kid, hes intense."

Poet
05-24-2018, 02:21 PM
I'm being unfair, but he's just a slow LB in my eyes.

underrated29
05-24-2018, 02:28 PM
I'm being unfair, but he's just a slow LB in my eyes.

He is a slow lb.
He is also a badass!

topscribe
05-24-2018, 02:37 PM
I'm being unfair, but he's just a slow LB in my eyes.
Because of Jewell's straight-line time in shorts? That's the problem with Combine numbers.
They don't always have a thing to do with football. Often, once the pads are donned, those
numbers change dramatically. Jewell has greater football speed than track & field speed.

dogfish
05-24-2018, 03:50 PM
I'm being unfair, but he's just a slow LB in my eyes.

well, todd davis is also a slow LBer, who has crap instincts and play diagnosis ability to boot. . . if jewel can be slowish but smart, and a reliable tackler, then realistically he should have a solid opportunity to beat davis out. . . and save us a nice little chunk of cap space next year. . .

:defense:

Poet
05-24-2018, 03:51 PM
well, todd davis is also a slow LBer, who has crap instincts and play diagnosis ability to boot. . . if jewel can be slowish but smart, and a reliable tackler, then realistically he should have a solid opportunity to beat davis out. . . and save us a nice little chunk of cap space next year. . .

:defense:

Zach Thomas was pretty slow. I feel you.

dogfish
05-24-2018, 03:54 PM
just for starters, you know the guy has to be a badass. . . he's got the gayest name in football, can you imagine how much grief he's gotten over that shit? dude must be a tough mofo. . . plus now he's got a great nickname. . .

Jsteve01
05-27-2018, 05:52 PM
well, todd davis is also a slow LBer, who has crap instincts and play diagnosis ability to boot. . . if jewel can be slowish but smart, and a reliable tackler, then realistically he should have a solid opportunity to beat davis out. . . and save us a nice little chunk of cap space next year. . .

:defense:

Zach Thomas was pretty slow. I feel you.

I was all prepared to bring up his performance against Barkley and the Nittany Lions. But then I went back and looked at the stats and it was Barkleys best game of the year. I really do like josey though he and the kid from Indiana were my mid-round linebacker choices. His lack of speed is definitely overstated. Because his instincts are far superior to almost anybody that came out of this draft

Poet
05-27-2018, 05:56 PM
Speed matters. It doesn't mean he can't be good, though.

G_Money
05-27-2018, 06:20 PM
The Broncos have 3 guys on this list because they have roster weaknesses at key positions and drafted guys who should get on the field. It doesn't speak to an outstanding draft so much as a holey roster, but at least they worked on filling those holes. Jewell IS a smart kid and a really good tackler. He also won't be able to cover backs or TEs for shit in anything outside of his area. That's okay - getting a smart 2-down ILB who doesn't make mistakes is an upgrade over what Denver has now. If he's breaking on the back in the flat who is only the target because Denver's pressure is ridiculous, he's got that. If he's in a zone or breaking up a screen, he's got that. If he's getting isolated on TEs on seam routes, he'll come off the field.

But we have safeties for that. Jewell should be able to provide what they need from him and be an upgrade over Davis. That's enough. Looking forward to seeing this roster go to work - I didn't expect to patch everything in a year and Denver didn't, but at least the damn boat shouldn't sink like last year.

topscribe
05-28-2018, 03:33 AM
The Broncos have 3 guys on this list because they have roster weaknesses at key positions and drafted guys who should get on the field. It doesn't speak to an outstanding draft so much as a holey roster, but at least they worked on filling those holes. Jewell IS a smart kid and a really good tackler. He also won't be able to cover backs or TEs for shit in anything outside of his area. That's okay - getting a smart 2-down ILB who doesn't make mistakes is an upgrade over what Denver has now. If he's breaking on the back in the flat who is only the target because Denver's pressure is ridiculous, he's got that. If he's in a zone or breaking up a screen, he's got that. If he's getting isolated on TEs on seam routes, he'll come off the field.

But we have safeties for that. Jewell should be able to provide what they need from him and be an upgrade over Davis. That's enough. Looking forward to seeing this roster go to work - I didn't expect to patch everything in a year and Denver didn't, but at least the damn boat shouldn't sink like last year.
With all due respect, this seems lazy analysis. The Broncos have three on the list because
they are deemed good players. Chubb was considered the best defensive player in the draft,
and some considered him the best player in all the draft. As for the others, it doesn't matter
whether or not their respective positions have weaknesses. The players are going to have to
earn the distinction against opponents from other teams.

By the way, Jewell did fairly well in coverage in college, according to what I read (https://www.goiowaawesome.com/iowa-hawkeyes-football/2018/04/2830/so-you-ve-drafted-josey-jewell-a-new-owner-s-guide). He had 26
pass breakups and six interceptions in his three years at Iowa. I think his image is suffering
from his 4,82 40-time at the Combine. However, he ran 4.68 on his pro day, and he said he
has done better than that. But he's much, much faster in football speed than he is in shorts.

TXBRONC
05-28-2018, 01:31 PM
He is a slow lb.
He is also a badass!

Terrell Davis was said to be slow. Just sayin.

TXBRONC
05-28-2018, 01:32 PM
I'm being unfair, but he's just a slow LB in my eyes.

Yes, you are being unfair.

Jsteve01
05-28-2018, 01:43 PM
The Broncos have 3 guys on this list because they have roster weaknesses at key positions and drafted guys who should get on the field. It doesn't speak to an outstanding draft so much as a holey roster, but at least they worked on filling those holes. Jewell IS a smart kid and a really good tackler. He also won't be able to cover backs or TEs for shit in anything outside of his area. That's okay - getting a smart 2-down ILB who doesn't make mistakes is an upgrade over what Denver has now. If he's breaking on the back in the flat who is only the target because Denver's pressure is ridiculous, he's got that. If he's in a zone or breaking up a screen, he's got that. If he's getting isolated on TEs on seam routes, he'll come off the field.

But we have safeties for that. Jewell should be able to provide what they need from him and be an upgrade over Davis. That's enough. Looking forward to seeing this roster go to work - I didn't expect to patch everything in a year and Denver didn't, but at least the damn boat shouldn't sink like last year.


Other than later pics I would say that the draft was pretty much a homerun. And I'm not alone in saying that. I didn't see one National media site they gave the Broncos a poor grade and in fact all of them that I saw had them among the top five teams draft wise

Poet
05-28-2018, 03:22 PM
Yes, you are being unfair.

No more than people are being overly kind by hand-waiving away his lack of speed because a few players have overcome it.

topscribe
05-28-2018, 03:53 PM
No more than people are being overly kind by hand-waiving away his lack of speed because a few players have overcome it.
Lack of speed regarding Jewell is utterly overblown. His 4.82 at the Combine was an anomaly.
He logged a 4.68 on his pro day, and he said he was expecting a mid-4.6. Moreover, the article (https://www.goiowaawesome.com/iowa-hawkeyes-football/2018/04/2830/so-you-ve-drafted-josey-jewell-a-new-owner-s-guide)
I cited above shows that Jewell plays with entirely adequate football speed. His 26 pass
breakups and 6 interceptions in college provide evidence of that.

First, you say that Keenum can't throw the long ball, and now you have Jewell being slow.
Where are you getting your information?

TXBRONC
05-28-2018, 04:07 PM
No more than people are being overly kind by hand-waiving away his lack of speed because a few players have overcome it.

King, you asked for input and told you want I honestly think. Hand-waiving it away his lack of speed I don't think so. I just don't care about his 40 time, if Jewel has the instincts and desire to play he'll do just fine. A 40 time doesn't tell us diddly on what player a guy is. Also, there just as many guys with faster 40 times that don't make it.

Poet
05-28-2018, 04:14 PM
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/deep-ball-project

https://fullpresscoverage.com/2017/12/27/keenums-deep-balls-have-to-improve/

https://brickwallblitz.com/2018/03/28/the-2017-18-deep-ball-project/

In regards to me taking issue with Case Keenum's deep ball throwing.

In regards to the issue with J's speed - looking at a 40 time and going "this guy isn't very fast," isn't unfair. And yes, while some guys have instincts, and while speed isn't everything, we have seen first hand what happens when LB's don't have the footspeed to keep up with opposing players. And the process isn't perfect, but they have the players run a forty yard dash for a reason. Just ignoring the fact that he's slow, and that's not just coming from a forty time, there were scouts who watched the guy play and his tape who said that, too.

I didn't hate the pick. I think he can probably be okay, and maybe even good. But it is magical how many people seem to watch a player get drafted and all of a sudden those relatively agreed upon weaknesses don't exist anymore. That was the point.

TXBRONC
05-28-2018, 04:20 PM
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/deep-ball-project

https://fullpresscoverage.com/2017/12/27/keenums-deep-balls-have-to-improve/

https://brickwallblitz.com/2018/03/28/the-2017-18-deep-ball-project/

In regards to me taking issue with Case Keenum's deep ball throwing.

In regards to the issue with J's speed - looking at a 40 time and going "this guy isn't very fast," isn't unfair. And yes, while some guys have instincts, and while speed isn't everything, we have seen first hand what happens when LB's don't have the footspeed to keep up with opposing players. And the process isn't perfect, but they have the players run a forty yard dash for a reason. Just ignoring the fact that he's slow, and that's not just coming from a forty time, there were scouts who watched the guy play and his tape who said that, too.

I didn't hate the pick. I think he can probably be okay, and maybe even good. But it is magical how many people seem to watch a player get drafted and all of a sudden those relatively agreed upon weaknesses don't exist anymore. That was the point.

As I said King, I don't care about the 40 time, I care about him being able to play. 40 times doesn't tell much about how a guy plays. How guys blow up the combine year after and don't do crap in the NFL?

Now you're switching horses, first it was Keenum can't throw anything resembling a deep pass, now you're switching it too he's doesn't do it very well. Those two entirely different arguments.

Poet
05-28-2018, 04:26 PM
Being able to play often involves speed, is the point. How many guys look great on tape and end up bombing in the league because they lack the physical ability? Just as many as the workout warriors. There's a balance - which is why I didn't take issue with people liking him as a player so much as the total dismissal of what is an obvious flaw in his game.

topscribe
05-28-2018, 04:43 PM
Being able to play often involves speed, is the point. How many guys look great on tape and end up bombing in the league because they lack the physical ability? Just as many as the workout warriors. There's a balance - which is why I didn't take issue with people liking him as a player so much as the total dismissal of what is an obvious flaw in his game.
I haven't seen anybody with a "total dismissal of an obvious flaw." Here is my reaction:

1. You first seemed to imply that Keenum can't pass deep, which is entirely inaccurate. Sure,
he needs to improve his deep game. But my eye test (the one I trust the most) has shown
me that he is entirely capable of the deep pass, which he has shown many times.

2. You referred to Jewell with "lack of speed." Granted he does not have the speed of, say,
Brandon Marshall, but "lack of speed" is not entirely accurate. He is not fast, but he is not
slow. Again, I go by the eye test. I've seen him track down QBs and also refuse to allow
RBs to turn the corner wide. So he's not a burner, but he's not a turtle, either. And he does
make up for whatever "lack of speed" he may have with unbelievable anticipation.

You have essentially accused us of superfluity when in fact that has described you on these
particular issues.

Poet
05-28-2018, 04:50 PM
You talk about how you love 'facts' and then talk about trusting your eye test?

Second, he hasn't shown that 'many times' because he hasn't played a lot. Last year he was amongst the worst at deep ball passing as evidenced by those stats, and you claim the opposite.

Then you go back to the eye test again. No one cares about your eye test Top, especially when it goes against just about every single scouting report out there, INCLUDING THE SCOUTS WHO LIKE HIM.

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05-28-2018, 05:01 PM
You talk about how you love 'facts' and then talk about trusting your eye test?

Second, he hasn't shown that 'many times' because he hasn't played a lot. Last year he was amongst the worst at deep ball passing as evidenced by those stats, and you claim the opposite.

Then you go back to the eye test again. No one cares about your eye test Top, especially when it goes against just about every single scouting report out there, INCLUDING THE SCOUTS WHO LIKE HIM.
One thing I notice about you is that you seem to think you speak for others.

Anyway, I didn't say I go by the eye test to the exclusion of data. But your problem seems
that you do not check out the sources I provide. As TX noted, you seemed to imply that
Keenum was incapable of the deep pass. Now you're trying to make it look as if I was
saying how exquisite he is at it when I made no such implication. I agreed in my previous
post that he needs improvement at it. I only showed that he is indeed capable of it. That's
all I was saying before you tried to put words into my mouth.

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05-28-2018, 05:06 PM
Our WR's won't standout because CK is CK.
Kind of like Diggs and Thielen didn't stand out?

Davii
05-28-2018, 05:33 PM
Vontaze Burfict ran over 5 seconds.... how about this tidbit:

According to a five-year NFL combine report, wide receivers and cornerbacks had the fastest average times at 4.55, followed by running backs at 4.59. The following average times were measured between 2008 and 2012 at the NFL combine.[20]

Position Time
Wide receiver 4.55
Cornerback 4.55
Running back 4.59
Safety 4.62
Outside linebacker 4.74
Tight end 4.77
Fullback 4.80
Inside linebacker 4.80
Quarterback 4.87
Defensive end 4.88
Defensive tackle 5.13
Center 5.30
Offensive tackle 5.32
Offensive guard 5.36

Poet
05-28-2018, 05:40 PM
Vontaze Burfict ran over 5 seconds.... how about this tidbit:

According to a five-year NFL combine report, wide receivers and cornerbacks had the fastest average times at 4.55, followed by running backs at 4.59. The following average times were measured between 2008 and 2012 at the NFL combine.[20]

Position Time
Wide receiver 4.55
Cornerback 4.55
Running back 4.59
Safety 4.62
Outside linebacker 4.74
Tight end 4.77
Fullback 4.80
Inside linebacker 4.80
Quarterback 4.87
Defensive end 4.88
Defensive tackle 5.13
Center 5.30
Offensive tackle 5.32
Offensive guard 5.36

I know Burfict's career pretty well - at forty he showed up overweight and ran that awful forty. That was one of the reasons why he fell into the supplemental draft and then was later picked up by Cincinnati - it wasn't JUST the forty time that killed him (it really hurt) but the fact that he had all those issues at college and THEN showed up out of shape, which spoke to where his head was at.

But when he got back into shape his actual speed went back to where it was when he was considered to be a first round pick. So, with that being said, he's not a shining example of 'speed doesn't matter'.

elsid13
05-28-2018, 05:45 PM
To believe VJ will start Jewell over Davis is pushing it. Jewell is a ST only at this point

Davii
05-28-2018, 10:45 PM
To believe VJ will start Jewell over Davis is pushing it. Jewell is a ST only at this point

I would be amazed if he starts but if he shows a lot I’d be surprised if he doesn’t get time.

G_Money
05-29-2018, 01:21 PM
With all due respect, this seems lazy analysis. The Broncos have three on the list because
they are deemed good players. Chubb was considered the best defensive player in the draft,
and some considered him the best player in all the draft. As for the others, it doesn't matter
whether or not their respective positions have weaknesses. The players are going to have to
earn the distinction against opponents from other teams.

By the way, Jewell did fairly well in coverage in college, according to what I read (https://www.goiowaawesome.com/iowa-hawkeyes-football/2018/04/2830/so-you-ve-drafted-josey-jewell-a-new-owner-s-guide). He had 26
pass breakups and six interceptions in his three years at Iowa. I think his image is suffering
from his 4,82 40-time at the Combine. However, he ran 4.68 on his pro day, and he said he
has done better than that. But he's much, much faster in football speed than he is in shorts.

Jewell is not on this list because he's expected to be Pozluszny, he's on it because the guy ahead of him is Todd Freaking Davis. Royce Freeman isn't on it because Bucky thinks he's a top-2 back (he had him just outside his top 5 IIRC) but because the Broncos have no real vet in front of him and are happy to run a back timeshare, which means he'll get plenty of chances to get yards.

It's not a knock on Freeman or Jewell. I think the world of Freeman and was pulling for Denver to draft him last year if he came out, let alone this year. Immediate opportunity matters on lists like this, though, and Denver has opportunities available for these young players.

Jewell's pass breakups were mostly zone opportunites, top. His reaction time is excellent and he will break on balls in the flat, which is why I like him, but his footspeed isn't even on tape. He just gets to the right spot on the field. That's crucial when there's a point to attack, and not as helpful when he's just running with a guy in man coverage. And as I've said before, pro-day times will always be about .12 faster on average because of the way they are timed. He verified his 40-combine time. Whether you think you should judge LBs on their 40 sprint times is a different thing.

I'm happy we're gonna give Jewell a shot because I think he's an improvement, and happy that Freeman should get a good workload as a rookie, and glad that Chubb is ours, all ours because I do expect him to be a monster. But the Broncos could have taken one of a half-dozen backs and still had a RB on this list, and could have taken a few other MLBs and made the list as well. The players we got are good players, but their listing here is partly due to need.

That's not a slam. I certainly hope they all live up to their opportunities - Denver needs that. And this is the happiest I've been with a Denver draft in some time. I can say all that and still say that this list is an opportunity list rather than a "best 1st year pro players" list.

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05-29-2018, 02:10 PM
Jewell is not on this list because he's expected to be Pozluszny, he's on it because the guy ahead of him is Todd Freaking Davis. Royce Freeman isn't on it because Bucky thinks he's a top-2 back (he had him just outside his top 5 IIRC) but because the Broncos have no real vet in front of him and are happy to run a back timeshare, which means he'll get plenty of chances to get yards.

It's not a knock on Freeman or Jewell. I think the world of Freeman and was pulling for Denver to draft him last year if he came out, let alone this year. Immediate opportunity matters on lists like this, though, and Denver has opportunities available for these young players.

Jewell's pass breakups were mostly zone opportunites, top. His reaction time is excellent and he will break on balls in the flat, which is why I like him, but his footspeed isn't even on tape. He just gets to the right spot on the field. That's crucial when there's a point to attack, and not as helpful when he's just running with a guy in man coverage. And as I've said before, pro-day times will always be about .12 faster on average because of the way they are timed. He verified his 40-combine time. Whether you think you should judge LBs on their 40 sprint times is a different thing.

I'm happy we're gonna give Jewell a shot because I think he's an improvement, and happy that Freeman should get a good workload as a rookie, and glad that Chubb is ours, all ours because I do expect him to be a monster. But the Broncos could have taken one of a half-dozen backs and still had a RB on this list, and could have taken a few other MLBs and made the list as well. The players we got are good players, but their listing here is partly due to need.

That's not a slam. I certainly hope they all live up to their opportunities - Denver needs that. And this is the happiest I've been with a Denver draft in some time. I can say all that and still say that this list is an opportunity list rather than a "best 1st year pro players" list.
Good argument on all counts.

I will respond to one point. I'm aware of the differences in timing between the Combine and
Pro Days. I did mention that Jewell said he was looking for a mid-4.6 time when he ran,
which implies that this is his normal time. But I'm not saying he is fast, as in Brandon
Marshall fast. As you mentioned, however, Jewell's reaction time and anticipation are
superlative, which adds up to good football speed. That's why a player's straight-line speed
in shorts does not necessarily indicate his football speed. We'll find out when the bullets
start flying. :)