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turftoad
04-24-2018, 02:48 PM
I think I'm with Chris on this one>


Cornerback Chris Harris spoke to reporters on Tuesday and made his case for the team to look elsewhere when they are on the clock with the fifth overall pick on Thursday. With Case Keenum on board at quarterback, Harris wants someone who can play right away.


“Somebody who can come in and make an impact now … not a quarterback. We’re trying to win now,” Harris said, via Mike Klis of KUSA.


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/04/24/chris-harris-hopes-broncos-dont-draft-a-qb-at-no-5/

Northman
04-24-2018, 02:54 PM
I agree with Chris

NightTerror218
04-24-2018, 03:23 PM
I like trading down with Buffalo and getting both firsts, you signed Keenum and he has grown as a QBs. His signing guaranteed that win now mode is not a new QB.

Poet
04-24-2018, 04:37 PM
The defense wanted TS to start.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-24-2018, 05:05 PM
The defense wanted TS to start.

Right?!

“We’re trying to win now.” Not based on what I saw last year! :D

aberdien
04-24-2018, 05:08 PM
The defense wanted TS to start.

Considering the competition TS had, I will not fault them for that.

Poet
04-24-2018, 05:11 PM
Considering the competition TS had, I will not fault them for that.

It shows how shortsighed the players are. It was a given that TS would never lead the team to a win, but he was a 'win now' candidate and his playing team set the team back. Had PL just started, we would have known what we have with him (I think it's a fair guess that he's horrible and won't improve, unfortunately) or actually develop the guy you drafted.

So, yeah, this is a good indication of something, but it's not in support of his position.

Simple Jaded
04-24-2018, 05:17 PM
Harris and his defensive teammates have shit taste in QB’s.

They wanted TS over the better talent, now they want CK over better talent.

Meanwhile, this defense isn’t nearly as dominant as it used to be, so the question is; what, exactly, are you “trying to win now”?

The Broncos are ******.

BroncoJoe
04-24-2018, 05:23 PM
Harris and his defensive teammates have shit taste in QB’s.

They wanted TS over the better talent, now they want CK over better talent.

Meanwhile, this defense isn’t nearly as dominant as it used to be, so the question is; what, exactly, are you “trying to win now”?

The Broncos are ******.

Uh - who's the better talent?

aberdien
04-24-2018, 05:41 PM
It shows how shortsighed the players are. It was a given that TS would never lead the team to a win, but he was a 'win now' candidate and his playing team set the team back. Had PL just started, we would have known what we have with him (I think it's a fair guess that he's horrible and won't improve, unfortunately) or actually develop the guy you drafted.

So, yeah, this is a good indication of something, but it's not in support of his position.
Maybe they already knew PL sucked even worse.

BroncoJoe
04-24-2018, 05:43 PM
Maybe they already knew PL sucked even worse.

I don't think there's any "maybe" about it.

King wanted us to go 0-16 last year. What a fan.

Poet
04-24-2018, 05:45 PM
I don't think there's any "maybe" about it.

King wanted us to go 0-16 last year. What a fan.

I want to win. I just understand and see what the roster limits are, and think forward, Joe. What a fan - being so shortsighted! See how useful the fan card is? Goodness.

Poet
04-24-2018, 05:46 PM
Maybe they already knew PL sucked even worse.

Yeah, they had him for less than two seasons and knew it was already over. Meanwhile, it was already over when TS took the field. Good god, man.

Hawgdriver
04-24-2018, 06:07 PM
Kinger's narrative is a bit revisionist and misleading, but I do wish they could have gotten a better look at PL. I hope he makes for decent trade fodder.

Poet
04-24-2018, 06:08 PM
Kinger's narrative is a bit revisionist and misleading, but I do wish they could have gotten a better look at PL. I hope he makes for decent trade fodder.

You really do have some nerve about you, Hawg.

MOtorboat
04-24-2018, 06:29 PM
Sorry, Chris. It is inevitable.

Hawgdriver
04-24-2018, 06:33 PM
You really do have some nerve about you, Hawg.

The decision points upon which to choose PL required a higher one-season expected loss total. Hard to fault a coach for those choices, perhaps Elway should have interceded, but his job is to pick the coaches.

Poet
04-24-2018, 06:39 PM
The decision points upon which to choose PL required a higher one-season expected loss total. Hard to fault a coach for those choices, perhaps Elway should have interceded, but his job is to pick the coaches.

Revisionist my foot.

The decision points upon which one is a better choice. To go with a one season higher total is a caveat of that, and a determination in and of itself. The defense played at times out of it's freaking mind and we tripped in 9 wins. And please don't forget how awful we were at the end of that season, too. We cannibalized the future to try to contend when the team was already becoming a shell of itself. I said the scope was wrong then, and I'm saying it now as we continue to chase after the postseason with a bad and declining roster.

Hawgdriver
04-24-2018, 06:44 PM
When do you start PL? After the loss to the Falcons under Kubiak's regime, after the Kubiak struggle with TS, opening day 2017? Kubiak wanted to make the playoffs and TS was the better choice for that. In 2017, PL's ankle and shoulder injuries kept him from being a possibility during opening day and later in the season. I don't like your tone.

Poet
04-24-2018, 06:51 PM
When do you start PL? After the loss to the Falcons under Kubiak's regime, after the Kubiak struggle with TS, opening day 2017? Kubiak wanted to make the playoffs and TS was the better choice for that. In 2017, PL's ankle and shoulder injuries kept him from being a possibility during opening day and later in the season. I don't like your tone.

As soon as possible so you can actually develop him? Kubiak was supposed to be a guru at QB development, we lost pieces on defense, the offense was obviously a wreck, his job wasn't in jeopardy, and it was time to find the next QBOTF instead of a bastardized and half-baked attempt at contention (we're doing that again, it looks like). Or maybe, I don't know, after TS completely hit the wall and became ineffective? Maybe, I don't know, at the absolute minimum the last game of the season? You know the one where Kubiak said it was on him for not getting PL playing time?

I don't like your tone and I don't like the fact that you'll always start with some accusation of me doing something wrong (oh, you're a stats guy now) or calling me revisionist when those accusations don't actually work.

topscribe
04-24-2018, 07:24 PM
As soon as possible so you can actually develop him? Kubiak was supposed to be a guru at QB development, we lost pieces on defense, the offense was obviously a wreck, his job wasn't in jeopardy, and it was time to find the next QBOTF instead of a bastardized and half-baked attempt at contention (we're doing that again, it looks like). Or maybe, I don't know, after TS completely hit the wall and became ineffective? Maybe, I don't know, at the absolute minimum the last game of the season? You know the one where Kubiak said it was on him for not getting PL playing time?

I don't like your tone and I don't like the fact that you'll always start with some accusation of me doing something wrong (oh, you're a stats guy now) or calling me revisionist when those accusations don't actually work.
Still drawing the stats card, huh? You're really burned because you had no answer for the stats, aren't you?

Nonetheless, I'm not sure any of us knows what you're arguing. What did the Broncos have to choose from?
You're holding it against the defense because Trevor was favored. So what was the alternative? So now
they all have bad taste? The majority of us seem to agree with them.

Hawgdriver
04-24-2018, 08:43 PM
As soon as possible so you can actually develop him? Kubiak was supposed to be a guru at QB development, we lost pieces on defense, the offense was obviously a wreck, his job wasn't in jeopardy, and it was time to find the next QBOTF instead of a bastardized and half-baked attempt at contention (we're doing that again, it looks like). Or maybe, I don't know, after TS completely hit the wall and became ineffective? Maybe, I don't know, at the absolute minimum the last game of the season? You know the one where Kubiak said it was on him for not getting PL playing time?

I don't like your tone and I don't like the fact that you'll always start with some accusation of me doing something wrong (oh, you're a stats guy now) or calling me revisionist when those accusations don't actually work.

Yes, the meaningless Raider game 16 of 2017 was an opportunity to get Lynch snaps. But Kubiak was the coach and he did his thing. Part of being a HC is your bond with players, and I'll defer to his judgment in playing TS. Kubiak has earned that much. But even he admitted the need to get Lynch snaps, so maybe it was wrong.

Otherwise, point to the time when Lynch should have started. After the loss to KC in 2016? That actually makes some sense.

slim
04-24-2018, 08:47 PM
Yes, the meaningless Raider game 16 of 2017 was an opportunity to get Lynch snaps. But Kubiak was the coach and he did his thing. Part of being a HC is your bond with players, and I'll defer to his judgment in playing TS. Kubiak has earned that much. But even he admitted the need to get Lynch snaps, so maybe it was wrong.

Otherwise, point to the time when Lynch should have started. After the loss to KC in 2016? That actually makes some sense.

He should have started from day 1. We wasted 2 years because he didn't.

Poet
04-24-2018, 08:49 PM
Yes, the meaningless Raider game 16 of 2017 was an opportunity to get Lynch snaps. But Kubiak was the coach and he did his thing. Part of being a HC is your bond with players, and I'll defer to his judgment in playing TS. Kubiak has earned that much. But even he admitted the need to get Lynch snaps, so maybe it was wrong.

Otherwise, point to the time when Lynch should have started. After the loss to KC in 2016? That actually makes some sense.

Let me make this abundantly clear - he should have been named the starter early on and played when he was healthy. And seeing how bad TS was in his respective first year, the fact that he was the starter last year was laughable. I'm not longer capitulating.

Simple Jaded
04-24-2018, 08:49 PM
Uh - who's the better talent?

Than who?

PL is a better talent than TS.

And I’m a better talent than CK.

Poet
04-24-2018, 08:50 PM
He should have started from day 1. We wasted 2 years because he didn't.

This is why I hate TS so much and it's not even his fault.

Hawgdriver
04-24-2018, 08:52 PM
He should have started from day 1. We wasted 2 years because he didn't.

Yeah, I like that answer too in hindsight.

Chillez
04-24-2018, 08:59 PM
I agree with Chris here.

Poet
04-24-2018, 09:05 PM
Yeah, I like that answer too in hindsight.

It was even before when people were arguing for it as it was happening and before the season started. Let's not actually revise history here. Actually, your statement could be interpreted to not be snarky or sophist, but I'm still triggered by your douchery.

Hawgdriver
04-24-2018, 09:27 PM
It was even before when people were arguing for it as it was happening and before the season started. Let's not actually revise history here. Actually, your statement could be interpreted to not be snarky or sophist, but I'm still triggered by your douchery.

You are too upset about all this. My point is that you are making statements in hindsight that ignore the reality of all the points along the way. TS was the better QB at each point in time. Your central idea is that the Broncos should have just thrown in the towel for two years to see what PL has. Easy to say looking backwards.

Poet
04-24-2018, 09:44 PM
You are too upset about all this. My point is that you are making statements in hindsight that ignore the reality of all the points along the way. TS was the better QB at each point in time. Your central idea is that the Broncos should have just thrown in the towel for two years to see what PL has. Easy to say looking backwards.

Nope - just tired of being insulted and attacked because you can't seem to remember my points when I made them. I literally made the argument that Slim just pointed out during training camp. Simple. My idea 'now' was the one that I made then - and I know I made that argument then because as the season went along I kept making that argument and got a lot of flack for it. You can't say someone's making a hindsight argument when they, themselves, as an individual, made that argument the entire ******* time. Again, I'm not going to capitulate. I know what I said. I know when I said it. I got louder as the season went on after my initial trepidation.

slim
04-24-2018, 09:55 PM
Yeah, I like that answer too in hindsight.

The answer was the same in foresight and I said as much. You don't draft a QB in the first round, then refuse to develop him....especially for a 7th round rookie/career backup. That doesn't make sense on any level.

slim
04-24-2018, 09:57 PM
Nope - just tired of being insulted and attacked because you can't seem to remember my points when I made them. I literally made the argument that Slim just pointed out during training camp. Simple. My idea 'now' was the one that I made then - and I know I made that argument then because as the season went along I kept making that argument and got a lot of flack for it. You can't say someone's making a hindsight argument when they, themselves, as an individual, made that argument the entire ******* time. Again, I'm not going to capitulate. I know what I said. I know when I said it. I got louder as the season went on after my initial trepidation.

The argument only works if you equate TS to CK. Personally, I don't. But if you do, it is a solid argument.

Poet
04-24-2018, 10:02 PM
The argument only works if you equate TS to CK. Personally, I don't. But if you do, it is a solid argument.

You know, I'm just at the point where I'm going to say "Go Broncos," and stop using football as a mental diversion and just root for the team. Go Broncos.

Hawgdriver
04-24-2018, 10:04 PM
Nope - just tired of being insulted and attacked because you can't seem to remember my points when I made them. I literally made the argument that Slim just pointed out during training camp. Simple. My idea 'now' was the one that I made then - and I know I made that argument then because as the season went along I kept making that argument and got a lot of flack for it. You can't say someone's making a hindsight argument when they, themselves, as an individual, made that argument the entire ******* time. Again, I'm not going to capitulate. I know what I said. I know when I said it. I got louder as the season went on after my initial trepidation.

Not the entire time, you recanted early in the 2017 season when everyone was impressed with his early season results, before McCoy decided an 80/20 pass rush split was ideal.

Look on the bright side, we got to flip TS for a draft pick and haven't proven beyond doubt that PL is utterly worthless in the NFL, so some poor sod might trade for him.

Simple Jaded
04-24-2018, 10:28 PM
I don’t remember Kinger ever liking TS.

Poet
04-24-2018, 10:28 PM
Not the entire time, you recanted early in the 2017 season when everyone was impressed with his early season results, before McCoy decided an 80/20 pass rush split was ideal.

Look on the bright side, we got to flip TS for a draft pick and haven't proven beyond doubt that PL is utterly worthless in the NFL, so some poor sod might trade for him.

I recanted in the early time coming off of a ban trying to be nice to people. Specifically to avoid conflict with some very pro TS posters. So yeah, three weeks while trying actively to enjoy the ******* game. Go Broncos.

TXBRONC
04-24-2018, 10:29 PM
Chris is a great corner and he's entitled to his opinion like everyone else. But where I think King has point is that the defensive personnel like Chris thought Siemian was answer and they were mistaken. Chris is no more expert on best move for the Broncos is than we are. Beside, there is portion of our members who wrote off season 2018 season shortly after the end 2017 season. Does not matter what Elway does many won't be happy anyway. If what Elway does coincides with Harris' opinion great, if it doesn't that's the way it goes.

Hawgdriver
04-24-2018, 10:33 PM
The answer was the same in foresight and I said as much. You don't draft a QB in the first round, then refuse to develop him....especially for a 7th round rookie/career backup. That doesn't make sense on any level.

That PL would be good in any narrative is wishful thinking.

Poet
04-24-2018, 10:42 PM
That PL would be good in any narrative is wishful thinking.

At one point we didn't know. Now your post, that's hindsight.

turftoad
04-24-2018, 10:48 PM
That PL would be good in any narrative is wishful thinking.

I am staying semi optimistic. They said he was going to be. 2-3 yr project. He was injured and hopefully matured.

Is a Broncos fan, I have to be optimistic !

Hawgdriver
04-24-2018, 11:02 PM
At one point we didn't know. Now your post, that's hindsight.

Maybe not you and me, but Elway and two separate coaching staffs weighed weeks of close scrutiny and made a decision that would affect their jobs and the franchise. Not that they knew. But as things have unfolded, they look to have been correct.

Yes, I relied on the facts of the last two years to say that PL in reality sucks like most of us and Denver staffs thought.

At least those are facts and not wishes.

Too bad we drafted a bust that couldn't beat out Trevor Siemian.

Hawgdriver
04-24-2018, 11:04 PM
I am staying semi optimistic. They said he was going to be. 2-3 yr project. He was injured and hopefully matured.

Is a Broncos fan, I have to be optimistic !

Yeah, I actually haven't given up on him yet cause he's a Bronco and has some flashes, but if he can't progress from week 5 or 6 of '16 (Falcons game) to week 12 of '17 (Raiders game), it's not looking so good.

Poet
04-24-2018, 11:08 PM
Maybe not you and me, but Elway and two separate coaching staffs weighed weeks of close scrutiny and made a decision that would affect their jobs and the franchise. Not that they knew. But as things have unfolded, they look to have been correct.

Yes, I relied on the facts of the last two years to say that PL in reality sucks like most of us and Denver staffs thought.

At least those are facts and not wishes.

Too bad we drafted a bust that couldn't beat out Trevor Siemian.

Facts? The facts are that you're saying "well the coaches went with him," and that is a fact, and it ultimately means nothing when they were wrong. That doesn't even factor in that TS was never going to be good and he could never be good, so you might as well try to get something out of the investment. You can cling to whatever you need to cling to. Lord knows I spent enough time obliterating the 'facts' of TS and his 'potential' and all the BS stat arguments people threw out for him. The sad thing is that everyone is quick to point to their facts that they find to support what they want. The real trick is to look at the facts and THEN determine the stance, and to use them in a non-obtuse manner.

Hawgdriver
04-24-2018, 11:23 PM
Facts? The facts are that you're saying "well the coaches went with him," and that is a fact, and it ultimately means nothing when they were wrong. That doesn't even factor in that TS was never going to be good and he could never be good, so you might as well try to get something out of the investment. You can cling to whatever you need to cling to. Lord knows I spent enough time obliterating the 'facts' of TS and his 'potential' and all the BS stat arguments people threw out for him. The sad thing is that everyone is quick to point to their facts that they find to support what they want. The real trick is to look at the facts and THEN determine the stance, and to use them in a non-obtuse manner.

But they weren't wrong. PL has been worse at every point.

topscribe
04-24-2018, 11:31 PM
Chris is a great corner and he's entitled to his opinion like everyone else. But where I think King has point is that the defensive personnel like Chris thought Siemian was answer and they were mistaken. Chris is no more expert on best move for the Broncos is than we are. Beside, there is portion of our members who wrote off season 2018 season shortly after the end 2017 season. Does not matter what Elway does many won't be happy anyway. If what Elway does coincides with Harris' opinion great, if it doesn't that's the way it goes.
I don't recall CHJ or any other player banging the table for Siemian. They might have
favored him, but they weren't taking polls. And just because we think they might have been
wrong about Siemian does not make us as knowledgeable as they in football. We're not.
They study and play the game. They play against quarterbacks. They know them far better
than we do.

I know it's fashionable to trash Siemian right now. He has taken the place of Orton, who took
the place of Plummer, who took the place of Griese, and so on. We seem to need somebody
for this. But not everyone shares the opinion some here have of Siemian. After all, one team
gave up an asset, a draft selection, for him.

So we can have our opinions on whether Siemian was just a bad QB, and how bad he might
be. But we can't justly use him to demonstrate how CHJ and others don't know how to
evaluate talent.

Poet
04-24-2018, 11:35 PM
But they weren't wrong. PL has been worse at every point.

You're look at it incorrectly - it's not about what happened as it is the odds of what will happen. There was damn near a zero percent chance TS was ever going to be good. He didn't have great intellect (people said he did because he went to Northwestern, well Ray Lewis was a brilliant football player and dumber than a bowl of hair), he had a horrible arm, he had no durability, etc. He was subpar across the board except he had some mobility to him. Whereas PL at least had the ability, more than a zero percent chance to be good.

Not going with the guy who could be good is okay if the other guy is decent or better. TS wasn't. And everyone but GK knew it. So, take the next logical step forward - if you have someone who is pure talent but nothing else and the other guy is nothing at all, who do you go with? You go with the guy who can actually POTENTIALLY turn into something. It wasn't like they benched PL for an average starter when the defense was still strong. They put out a guy that was lucky to be drafted. I used to count the overthrows when he'd put everything he physically had into a throw, and the underthrows. People got pissy with me, but it was to prove a point.

The facts told people, or should have told people, that TS was damn near a 100% goner from day one. But people want to be optimistic and not shit on a season before it's barely started, I get it. And PL's facts told us that he could at least have a chance to pan out. But what are those facts? Look at everything that went into drafting him. Facts aren't determinative in many settings. Reasonable people can disagree, so when people lay out the facts for Brady as GOAT, and another does Elway or Manning, it's an informed opinion, based on facts. At the same, it's a fact that one plus one equals two.

That's why I laugh so hard at people telling me I don't have facts or use them. Because, the facts said that TS had a better completion than a lot of QB's for that same time - and that's true. It was also a FACT that many of those QB's played in different eras where passing numbers were lower.

I saw all of that for a reason - full circle - it was the wrong choice to go with TS. It was the wrong choice long term, and it was the wrong choice short term because those teams weren't playoff teams. It was a reach two years to think playoffs, and the defense had to win games for us off of turnovers to accidentally get to nine wins.

TL;DR for you - both political scientists and actuaries are factually based 'workers' and yet Poli Sci is the better 'way of thinking' for NFL than an actuary. Or you could put mathematician.

Oh, and last season when we clearly sucked heading into the season, there was no reason for TS to be the starter - the defense was even less than what it was, and you had a guy who was a legitimate talent on the bench.

Hawgdriver
04-25-2018, 12:37 AM
You're look at it incorrectly - it's not about what happened as it is the odds of what will happen. There was damn near a zero percent chance TS was ever going to be good. He didn't have great intellect (people said he did because he went to Northwestern, well Ray Lewis was a brilliant football player and dumber than a bowl of hair), he had a horrible arm, he had no durability, etc. He was subpar across the board except he had some mobility to him. Whereas PL at least had the ability, more than a zero percent chance to be good.

Not going with the guy who could be good is okay if the other guy is decent or better. TS wasn't. And everyone but GK knew it. So, take the next logical step forward - if you have someone who is pure talent but nothing else and the other guy is nothing at all, who do you go with? You go with the guy who can actually POTENTIALLY turn into something. It wasn't like they benched PL for an average starter when the defense was still strong. They put out a guy that was lucky to be drafted. I used to count the overthrows when he'd put everything he physically had into a throw, and the underthrows. People got pissy with me, but it was to prove a point.

The facts told people, or should have told people, that TS was damn near a 100% goner from day one. But people want to be optimistic and not shit on a season before it's barely started, I get it. And PL's facts told us that he could at least have a chance to pan out. But what are those facts? Look at everything that went into drafting him. Facts aren't determinative in many settings. Reasonable people can disagree, so when people lay out the facts for Brady as GOAT, and another does Elway or Manning, it's an informed opinion, based on facts. At the same, it's a fact that one plus one equals two.

That's why I laugh so hard at people telling me I don't have facts or use them. Because, the facts said that TS had a better completion than a lot of QB's for that same time - and that's true. It was also a FACT that many of those QB's played in different eras where passing numbers were lower.

I saw all of that for a reason - full circle - it was the wrong choice to go with TS. It was the wrong choice long term, and it was the wrong choice short term because those teams weren't playoff teams. It was a reach two years to think playoffs, and the defense had to win games for us off of turnovers to accidentally get to nine wins.

TL;DR for you - both political scientists and actuaries are factually based 'workers' and yet Poli Sci is the better 'way of thinking' for NFL than an actuary. Or you could put mathematician.

Oh, and last season when we clearly sucked heading into the season, there was no reason for TS to be the starter - the defense was even less than what it was, and you had a guy who was a legitimate talent on the bench.

Kinger believes in Lynch. Lynch sucks. The end.

Simple Jaded
04-25-2018, 01:09 AM
I don't recall CHJ or any other player banging the table for Siemian. They might have
favored him, but they weren't taking polls. And just because we think they might have been
wrong about Siemian does not make us as knowledgeable as they in football. We're not.
They study and play the game. They play against quarterbacks. They know them far better
than we do.

I know it's fashionable to trash Siemian right now. He has taken the place of Orton, who took
the place of Plummer, who took the place of Griese, and so on. We seem to need somebody
for this. But not everyone shares the opinion some here have of Siemian. After all, one team
gave up an asset, a draft selection, for him.

So we can have our opinions on whether Siemian was just a bad QB, and how bad he might
be. But we can't justly use him to demonstrate how CHJ and others don't know how to
evaluate talent.

It’s literally common knowledge that the defensive players wanted TS to start.

topscribe
04-25-2018, 03:12 AM
It’s literally common knowledge that the defensive players wanted TS to start.
That's what I said.

spikerman
04-25-2018, 05:29 AM
Just a reminder, Lynch was thought to be a two to three year project when he was drafted and he’s played four games in two years.

We simply don’t know for sure yet that Lynch “sucks.” I don’t think Elway knows for sure either which is why he brought in another bridge QB. I also don’t believe he’ll draft a QB early because he thinks he may already have the QBOTF on the roster. Is Lynch bad? Maybe, but four games isn’t enough to say for sure.

Nomad
04-25-2018, 05:49 AM
In Lynch's 3rd yr, he will have to show significant improvement. So far, he's always injured, plays like shit when his number is called, questionable work ethic, and couldn't beat out a 7th rd pick who wasn't even considered a hopeful project. So the lack of playing time is on Paxton Lynch's lack of.

Northman
04-25-2018, 05:57 AM
You are too upset about all this. My point is that you are making statements in hindsight that ignore the reality of all the points along the way. TS was the better QB at each point in time. Your central idea is that the Broncos should have just thrown in the towel for two years to see what PL has. Easy to say looking backwards.

Not really.

The problem for Broncos since Manning's retirement is their inability to take the QB position seriously. Even though i think CK is average at least they actually tried to address it properly this year. But when you keep taking project Qbs in the first round thats problematic. Not only are you wasting the pick when he has no real Qb in front of him to learn from but you waste a pick that you could of used on a real difference maker for the team. I know its difficult to get a good QB at the bottom of the draft but you certainly dont waste it on a project. You say its easy to say looking backwards but the problem is a lot of us have been saying this before now, so its not really revisionists history when you've been beating the drum for over 2 years.

Northman
04-25-2018, 06:07 AM
In Lynch's 3rd yr, he will have to show significant improvement. So far, he's always injured, plays like shit when his number is called, questionable work ethic, and couldn't beat out a 7th rd pick who wasn't even considered a hopeful project. So the lack of playing time is on Paxton Lynch's lack of.

But can he? He's not the starter and unless CK gets destroyed i dont think we will see Lynch at all next year during the regular season.

Nomad
04-25-2018, 06:21 AM
But can he? He's not the starter and unless CK gets destroyed i dont think we will see Lynch at all next year during the regular season.

If his number is called, I do expect him to play better than last year. He should know the playbook better, watched film on what he's done wrong, improved on those wrongs, etc.

Shazam!
04-25-2018, 06:40 AM
You are too upset about all this. My point is that you are making statements in hindsight that ignore the reality of all the points along the way. TS was the better QB at each point in time. Your central idea is that the Broncos should have just thrown in the towel for two years to see what PL has. Easy to say looking backwards.

Not really.

The problem for Broncos since Manning's retirement is their inability to take the QB position seriously. Even though i think CK is average at least they actually tried to address it properly this year. But when you keep taking project Qbs in the first round thats problematic. Not only are you wasting the pick when he has no real Qb in front of him to learn from but you waste a pick that you could of used on a real difference maker for the team. I know its difficult to get a good QB at the bottom of the draft but you certainly dont waste it on a project. You say its easy to say looking backwards but the problem is a lot of us have been saying this before now, so its not really revisionists history when you've been beating the drum for over 2 years.

The problem is that Elway and Co. thought they had their guy in Oz though. That didn't work out really did it. Then he became Option B again in Year 2 Post-Manning, and he still wasnt going to be The Guy anyway. Oz was always the contingency plan but... he'll never be a starter in this League.

This happened in a different way, but i fully expected it, and most here did too. You just dont lose a player like PM and not be set back a few years.

TXBRONC
04-25-2018, 08:10 AM
I don't recall CHJ or any other player banging the table for Siemian. They might have
favored him, but they weren't taking polls. And just because we think they might have been
wrong about Siemian does not make us as knowledgeable as they in football. We're not.
They study and play the game. They play against quarterbacks. They know them far better
than we do.

I know it's fashionable to trash Siemian right now. He has taken the place of Orton, who took
the place of Plummer, who took the place of Griese, and so on. We seem to need somebody
for this. But not everyone shares the opinion some here have of Siemian. After all, one team
gave up an asset, a draft selection, for him.

So we can have our opinions on whether Siemian was just a bad QB, and how bad he might
be. But we can't justly use him to demonstrate how CHJ and others don't know how to
evaluate talent.

Then I guess it's good thing I didn't say Chris or anyone else was pounding the table for Siemian. It is however a well-known fact defense wanted him start. Last time I check Harris gets paid to play corner back not evaluate talent. As I said he has a right to his opinion but that is all is. Yes we can justly use Siemian as example of how Chris was mistaken.

Lets not overplay what the Vikings gave up in trade for Siemian it's not like they gave up a 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd pick for the guy. They also went and paid a boat load for Kirk Cousins to be their starting quarterback. So it's a little disingenuous because the Vikings didn't give high round to get him.

Hawgdriver
04-25-2018, 10:02 AM
Just a reminder, Lynch was thought to be a two to three year project when he was drafted and he’s played four games in two years.

We simply don’t know for sure yet that Lynch “sucks.” I don’t think Elway knows for sure either which is why he brought in another bridge QB. I also don’t believe he’ll draft a QB early because he thinks he may already have the QBOTF on the roster. Is Lynch bad? Maybe, but four games isn’t enough to say for sure.

He sucks for sure. As of now.

Hopefully he gets a lot better in the future.

HORSEPOWER 56
04-25-2018, 10:06 AM
Players who produced a 5-11 record sure do have room to publicly voice their opinion on how draft picks are spent... :rolleyes:

Frankly, when asked about who their team should take in the draft, players should say shit like, “It’s not up to me. What is up to me is my play on the field and obviously I need to improve on that and help my teammates improve after a 5-11 season.”

CHJ, and I love the guy, has the luxury of being able to play for and plan for right now, this year, this moment. Drafts aren’t built that way. If you’re counting on a draft pick/rookie to come in and save or greatly improve your team the first year, you’re ******* up. FA is for right now, drafts are for the next 4-5 years. Rookies aren’t there to “get you over the hump”.

Hawgdriver
04-25-2018, 10:10 AM
Players who produced a 5-11 record sure do have room to voice their opinion on how draft picks are spent... :rolleyes:

Frankly, when asked about who their team should take in the draft, players should say shit like, “It’s not up to me. What is up to me is my play on the field and obviously I need to improve on that and help my teammates improve after a 5-11 season.”

CHJ, and I love the guy, has the luxury of being able to play for and plan for right now, this year, this moment. Drafts aren’t built that way. If you’re counting on a draft pick/rookie to come in and save or greatly improve your team the first year, you’re ******* up. FA is for right now, drafts are for the next 4-5 years. Rookies aren’t there to “get you over the hump”.

Tell that to New Orleans.

HORSEPOWER 56
04-25-2018, 10:17 AM
Tell that to New Orleans.

How often does that happen? Who drafted those guys? Were they the guys the players wanted or guys that the FO wanted? I’d be willing to bet Payton and his staff don’t give a flying no **** who his players think they should draft. NO hit the jackpot last year and 2 of 3 of their rookies played above their pay grade (2 were also first round picks).

My point is that players, by and large, aren’t the sharpest knives in the drawer and also by and large should be seen and not heard.

Freyaka
04-25-2018, 10:26 AM
Just a reminder, Lynch was thought to be a two to three year project when he was drafted and he’s played four games in two years.

We simply don’t know for sure yet that Lynch “sucks.” I don’t think Elway knows for sure either which is why he brought in another bridge QB. I also don’t believe he’ll draft a QB early because he thinks he may already have the QBOTF on the roster. Is Lynch bad? Maybe, but four games isn’t enough to say for sure.

We know he sucks, he could play 100 games and we'd still know he sucks. The issue isn't games played, it's between the ears and Lynch doesn't have it. Let's stop pretending our pirate QB has the potential to develop still.

turftoad
04-25-2018, 10:56 AM
We know he sucks, he could play 100 games and we'd still know he sucks. The issue isn't games played, it's between the ears and Lynch doesn't have it. Let's stop pretending our pirate QB has the potential to develop still.

I wish I had the same crystal ball as you do. :D

Freyaka
04-25-2018, 11:08 AM
I wish I had the same crystal ball as you do. :D

It doesn't take a crystal ball...Just have to use your eyes to observe what has been in front of us for two years.

turftoad
04-25-2018, 11:10 AM
It doesn't take a crystal ball...Just have to use your eyes to observe what has been in front of us for two years.

4 games?

I know I haven't been at practice or seen much of him at all.

DenBronx
04-25-2018, 11:14 AM
Is Lynch at home playing Fortnite all day? Why isn't he gathering up our WRs and throwing to them as much as possible? Dude has no interest in building a bond or on field chemistry with them. He has all of the physical tools but mentally he isn't there and I don't think he will ever be there.

Northman
04-25-2018, 11:26 AM
Is Lynch at home playing Fortnite all day? Why isn't he gathering up our WRs and throwing to them as much as possible? Dude has no interest in building a bond or on field chemistry with them. He has all of the physical tools but mentally he isn't there and I don't think he will ever be there.

I think the dude was done after hurting his ankle and crying on the sidelines. I wouldn't be surprised if Kelly ends up passing him on the depth chart.

DenBronx
04-25-2018, 11:37 AM
Is Lynch at home playing Fortnite all day? Why isn't he gathering up our WRs and throwing to them as much as possible? Dude has no interest in building a bond or on field chemistry with them. He has all of the physical tools but mentally he isn't there and I don't think he will ever be there.

I think the dude was done after hurting his ankle and crying on the sidelines. I wouldn't be surprised if Kelly ends up passing him on the depth chart.

He has mentally checked out already. I don't even think he believes in himself to be a starter at this level.

I don't see Baker Mayfield crying like that. If there is anything Mayfield lacks, well, it isn't confidence. Not saying draft him but that is a good trait that Mayfield has. This is why drafting him might be a problem. He isn't going to want to sit for a year and learn. It would probably be a huge distraction in the locker room. We would have to trade Keenum. This is why I doubt we take Mayfield.

Josh Allen on the other hand would be perfect. He could sit and learn behind Keenum without the pressure of starting right away. I wouldn't be mad about this pick if we really want to go QB at 5. It would be easy to trade Keenum, he has a very cap friendly deal and year 2 is even better. We would get something for him in return.

topscribe
04-25-2018, 11:42 AM
Then I guess it's good thing I didn't say Chris or anyone else was pounding the table for Siemian. It is however a well-known fact defense wanted him start. Last time I check Harris gets paid to play corner back not evaluate talent. As I said he has a right to his opinion but that is all is. Yes we can justly use Siemian as example of how Chris was mistaken.

Lets not overplay what the Vikings gave up in trade for Siemian it's not like they gave up a 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd pick for the guy. They also went and paid a boat load for Kirk Cousins to be their starting quarterback. So it's a little disingenuous because the Vikings didn't give high round to get him.
Don't make an argument where there isn't one. I didn't say that you said they were "pounding
the table." That was a figure of speech. I'm surprised I have to explain that.

And if you don't think that actually playing on the field against given talent does not increase
one's acuity in seeing the other's abilities, then you must never have been on the field. No
matter the sport or contest, nothing gives one an idea of another's ability than going up
against him. As Jaded says, It's science.

Let's not overplay what I have posted about Siemian, the Vikings, or anything else. I said the
Vikings gave some value for Siemian. They did. They gave some value for him. I did not say
they gave a 1st, 2nd, or even a 3rd pick for the guy. To imply that is a little disingenuous.

Poet
04-25-2018, 01:00 PM
Jesus ******* Christ.

Freyaka
04-25-2018, 01:04 PM
Don't make an argument where there isn't one. I didn't say that you said they were "pounding
the table." That was a figure of speech. I'm surprised I have to explain that.

And if you don't think that actually playing on the field against given talent does not increase
one's acuity in seeing the other's abilities, then you must never have been on the field. No
matter the sport or contest, nothing gives one an idea of another's ability than going up
against him. As Jaded says, It's science.

Let's not overplay what I have posted about Siemian, the Vikings, or anything else. I said the
Vikings gave some value for Siemian. They did. They gave some value for him. I did not say
they gave a 1st, 2nd, or even a 3rd pick for the guy. To imply that is a little disingenuous.

Top, you are a bit fiesty the last day or two. Perhaps it's time for a break for a day or two?

dogfish
04-25-2018, 01:23 PM
Top, you are a bit fiesty the last day or two. Perhaps it's time for a break for a day or two?

man, you are hilarious with your constant attempts to tell everybody else how they should post. . .

TXBRONC
04-25-2018, 01:27 PM
Don't make an argument where there isn't one. I didn't say that you said they were "pounding
the table." That was a figure of speech. I'm surprised I have to explain that.

And if you don't think that actually playing on the field against given talent does not increase
one's acuity in seeing the other's abilities, then you must never have been on the field. No
matter the sport or contest, nothing gives one an idea of another's ability than going up
against him. As Jaded says, It's science.

Let's not overplay what I have posted about Siemian, the Vikings, or anything else. I said the
Vikings gave some value for Siemian. They did. They gave some value for him. I did not say
they gave a 1st, 2nd, or even a 3rd pick for the guy. To imply that is a little disingenuous.

Top there is no reason to get upset.

Chris is entitled to his opinion no less than rest of us but him cornerback doesn't make qualify him make picks for the organization.

Top you brought it about the Vikings trading a pick for Siemian (something to the effect of an asset, a pick). That's a little vague. I didn't say you stated or implied that it was a 1st, 2nd, 3rd round pick. We all know it's a late round pick that Denver got for him.

Finally I don't around saying I hate the guy nor have I said he's a worthless piece of crap. I just said he's not very good, if that offends well then that's just the way it is.

Poet
04-25-2018, 01:35 PM
man, you are hilarious with your constant attempts to tell everybody else how they should post. . .

You're pretty much doing the exact same thing, Fish.

Hawgdriver
04-25-2018, 01:40 PM
You're pretty much doing the exact same thing, Fish.

Which is it, pretty much, or exact same? :heh:

TXBRONC
04-25-2018, 01:43 PM
man, you are hilarious with your constant attempts to tell everybody else how they should post. . .

I think Frey means well.

Poet
04-25-2018, 01:43 PM
Which is it, pretty much, or exact same? :heh:

Welcome to ignore, troll.

Hawgdriver
04-25-2018, 01:48 PM
Welcome to ignore, troll.

Finals are stressful. Hang in there.

topscribe
04-25-2018, 02:06 PM
Top there is no reason to get upset.

Chris is entitled to his opinion no less than rest of us but him cornerback doesn't make qualify him make picks for the organization.

Top you brought it about the Vikings trading a pick for Siemian (something to the effect of an asset, a pick). That's a little vague. I didn't say you stated or implied that it was a 1st, 2nd, 3rd round pick. We all know it's a late round pick that Denver got for him.

Finally I don't around saying I hate the guy nor have I said he's a worthless piece of crap. I just said he's not very good, if that offends well then that's just the way it is.
I have a hard time reacting to hyperbole when referencing my statements.
I didn't say CHJ was qualified to make picks. I just said that players know the competition better than those who watch games from their respective couches. They do.
I said the Vikings gave value for Siemian. That shouldn't seem vague. We all know it was a low draft choice. Otherwise, I would have specified the choice.
I didn't say you hate Siemian or said he is a "worthless piece of crap." I don't know where you got that.
I'm not pounding the table for Siemian. I think he may be a capable of a good backup QB. I also admit I may be wrong.
I only tried to clarify some facts and suppositions. But, as usual, that turned out to be fodder for some kind of debate. :confused:

dogfish
04-25-2018, 02:06 PM
I think Frey means well.

oh, i know he means well. . . his heart's in the right place. . . the unnecessary and over-officious mother hen act gets old, though. . .

topscribe
04-25-2018, 02:09 PM
Welcome to ignore, troll.
King seems to be putting everybody on ignore these days. :lol:

Freyaka
04-25-2018, 03:00 PM
man, you are hilarious with your constant attempts to tell everybody else how they should post. . .

He can post whatever he wants man, a simple observation. This isn't the first time you've commented towards me on this.


Are you trying to tell me I should approach posting differently? Lol well, I guess it's only a problem when I do it. I'm just trying to help the guy out, he's clearly been getting annoyed a lot lately.

topscribe
04-25-2018, 03:11 PM
He can post whatever he wants man, a simple observation. This isn't the first time you've commented towards me on this.


Are you trying to tell me I should approach posting differently? Lol well, I guess it's only a problem when I do it. I'm just trying to help the guy out, he's clearly been getting annoyed a lot lately.
I get annoyed when I lay down facts to support my argument, then people respond without facts,
but ridicule my argument (not at you, Frey, nor at TX, to whom I responded on another issue just
a bit ago). But then, I must realize that this is all they have . . .

Poet
04-25-2018, 03:20 PM
Frey, you've a good heart.

BroncoJoe
04-25-2018, 03:25 PM
I get annoyed when I lay down facts to support my argument, then people respond without facts,
but ridicule my argument (not at you, Frey, nor at TX, to whom I responded on another issue just
a bit ago). But then, I must realize that this is all they have . . .

Do you and King share an account?

:yo:

Poet
04-25-2018, 03:28 PM
Do you and King share an account?

:yo:

This is the most hurtful thing anyone has ever said to me. This is worse then when my dad beat me, Joe. Good god, you're an animal!

topscribe
04-25-2018, 03:29 PM
Do you and King share an account?

:yo:
:lol:

TXBRONC
04-25-2018, 03:31 PM
This is the most hurtful thing anyone has ever said to me. This is worse then when my dad beat me, Joe. Good god, you're an animal!

You have the flair for the overly dramatic.

Poet
04-25-2018, 03:41 PM
You have the flair for the overly dramatic.

You are one of my oldest friends on this site, and I appreciate you.

CoachChaz
04-25-2018, 04:01 PM
This is the most hurtful thing anyone has ever said to me. This is worse then when my dad beat me, Joe. Good god, you're an animal!

Sounds like you let childhood scars get the best of you. Hell...When I was a kid, I was an altar boy, a boy scout, a wrestler and lived near PennState...and I turned out normal.

topscribe
04-25-2018, 04:05 PM
I turned out normal.
That makes you kind of a square peg on this site, doesn't it?

CoachChaz
04-25-2018, 04:11 PM
That makes you kind of a square peg on this site, doesn't it?

Despite staring the odds in the face at every turn...I can say I was never molested. So...yeah.

Poet
04-25-2018, 04:18 PM
Sounds like you let childhood scars get the best of you. Hell...When I was a kid, I was an altar boy, a boy scout, a wrestler and lived near PennState...and I turned out normal.

You are not normal. I say that lovingly.

spikerman
04-25-2018, 04:18 PM
I think the dude was done after hurting his ankle and crying on the sidelines. I wouldn't be surprised if Kelly ends up passing him on the depth chart.

I think that whole crying on the sidelines thing is way overblown. I think those were tears of frustration. He finally got a chance to play and he gets hurt. Maybe it’s a sign of passion and not weakness.

topscribe
04-25-2018, 04:20 PM
I think that whole crying on the sidelines thing is way overblown. I think those were tears of frustration. He finally got a chance to play and he gets hurt. Maybe it’s a sign of passion and not weakness.
That's always been my impression.

dogfish
04-25-2018, 04:21 PM
I think that whole crying on the sidelines thing is way overblown. I think those were tears of frustration. He finally got a chance to play and he gets hurt. Maybe it’s a sign of passion and not weakness.

donovan mcnabb and byron leftwich finished games on broken legs. . . he's a pansy either way. . .

underrated29
04-25-2018, 04:23 PM
This thread makes me want to drink heavily.

topscribe
04-25-2018, 04:24 PM
donovan mcnabb and byron leftwich finished games on broken legs. . . he's a pansy either way. . .
You still seem to be focusing on the injury and the pain.

I'm almost certain it was frustration. He saw his chance slipping away. I might have cried, too.
Not over pain. Pain has never made me cry, not even as a kid. But seeing such a career
slipping away might . . .

underrated29
04-25-2018, 04:26 PM
You still seem to be focusing on the injury and the pain.

I'm almost certain it was frustration. He saw his chance slipping away. I might have cried, too.
Not over pain. Pain has never made me cry, not even as a kid. But seeing such a career
slipping away might . . .



I do not disagree, but that to me shows that he does not have what it takes then. Losers always cry about their best. Winners go home and F**k the prom queen!

Freyaka
04-25-2018, 04:26 PM
Do you and King share an account?

:yo:

After all King's done for you Joe!

Freyaka
04-25-2018, 04:27 PM
This thread makes me want to drink heavily.

Bloody Mary's at Frey's house tonight.

dogfish
04-25-2018, 04:27 PM
This thread makes me want to drink heavily.

every thread makes me want to drink heavily. . . :lol:

topscribe
04-25-2018, 04:28 PM
I do not disagree, but that to me shows that he does not have what it takes then. Losers always cry about their best. Winners go home and F**k the prom queen!
Don't agree. We all will react differently to any event. I just think we may be prejudging . . .

To give an example, I was about 3½ or so when I fell off the tractor and broke my arm. My
dad said I didn't even cry. It was sometime after that -- maybe a year or so -- I tried to
reach for something in the cow (water) tank and fell in. I came into the house drenched,
bawling like a calf looking for its mother. I remember everyone laughing.

We just don't know about how anyone should react . . .
.

topscribe
04-25-2018, 04:29 PM
every thread makes me want to drink heavily. . . :lol:
On the other hand, I don't need an excuse . . . :shots:

underrated29
04-25-2018, 04:35 PM
Don't agree. We all will react differently to any event. I just think we may be prejudging . . .


I do not disagree that we all react differently to an event and that no one can tell another person how they could or should feel.

My point was, if he was a winner. He would not be crying because his opportunity slipped away. Winners do not let it slip away. Real Winners do not make excuses. They do. They do it. If the opportunity slips by, they were not ready or not good enough. Plain and simple.
TD didnt cry when he went blind in the SB. They used him as a dummy. He came back out in the second half and brought us a championship. If he was not a winner he could have pulled a Ladanian Tomlinson. He could have sat on the bench and cried.

Winners, those who have it, they do not cry because opportunity slipped by. Lynch, cried because his did slip by. That just shows he did not have it in the first place.

topscribe
04-25-2018, 04:39 PM
I do not disagree that we all react differently to an event and that no one can tell another person how they could or should feel.

My point was, if he was a winner. He would not be crying because his opportunity slipped away. Winners do not let it slip away. Real Winners do not make excuses. They do. They do it. If the opportunity slips by, they were not ready or not good enough. Plain and simple.
TD didnt cry when he went blind in the SB. They used him as a dummy. He came back out in the second half and brought us a championship. If he was not a winner he could have pulled a Ladanian Tomlinson. He could have sat on the bench and cried.

Winners, those who have it, they do not cry because opportunity slipped by. Lynch, cried because his did slip by. That just shows he did not have it in the first place.
To you. But I'm still not going to prejudge. I think it's expecting others to react according to
our own standards and our own personality traits. Because one cries does not mean one just
gave up. It means they cried. Judgment comes according to how they follow up on that. We
have yet to see about that . . .

Poet
04-25-2018, 04:41 PM
UR, he didn't have a chance to go back out there and play. He wasn't cleared. TD was allowed on the field.

spikerman
04-25-2018, 04:47 PM
UR, he didn't have a chance to go back out there and play. He wasn't cleared. TD was allowed on the field.

Agreed. The decision to go back in or not was probably not his own.*


*Before anybody complains, nobody is comparing PL to TD.

TXBRONC
04-25-2018, 04:50 PM
You are one of my oldest friends on this site, and I appreciate you.

Thank you King.

underrated29
04-25-2018, 04:59 PM
UR, he didn't have a chance to go back out there and play. He wasn't cleared. TD was allowed on the field.



I know.

Northman
04-25-2018, 05:10 PM
I think that whole crying on the sidelines thing is way overblown. I think those were tears of frustration. He finally got a chance to play and he gets hurt. Maybe it’s a sign of passion and not weakness.

Guess it all depends on one's perception of it. I saw it as a sign of being defeated.

topscribe
04-25-2018, 05:14 PM
Guess it all depends on one's perception of it. I saw it as a sign of being defeated.
It's possible. But it's actually how he sees it. I wouldn't know without analyzing him in person.

Northman
04-25-2018, 05:15 PM
It's possible. But it's actually how he sees it. I wouldn't know without analyzing him in person.

Um, ok.

Cugel
04-25-2018, 05:20 PM
Considering the competition TS had, I will not fault them for that.

Right. Should they have started Paxton Lynch? HOw about Brock?
12059

Cugel
04-25-2018, 05:22 PM
Quote Originally Posted by spikerman View Post
I think that whole crying on the sidelines thing is way overblown. I think those were tears of frustration. He finally got a chance to play and he gets hurt. Maybe it’s a sign of passion and not weakness.

What difference does it make? The whole incident was totally overblown.

What matters is that Paxton Lynch can't play dead in a western not that he was crying.

If he threw 3 TDs in that game he could cry his little eyes out and it would be fine.

spikerman
04-25-2018, 05:37 PM
What difference does it make? The whole incident was totally overblown.

What matters is that Paxton Lynch can't play dead in a western not that he was crying.

If he threw 3 TDs in that game he could cry his little eyes out and it would be fine.

4 games.

Freyaka
04-25-2018, 05:46 PM
4 games.

You can state that all you want, giving him more games isn't going to make a difference. If you want to waste the teams time by giving him more, fine, but it's pointless to throw away games like that.

dogfish
04-25-2018, 05:50 PM
On the other hand, I don't need an excuse . . . :shots:

niiiice. . . right on, top-- you just gave me a reason to dread my incipient old age a little less!

:cheers:

topscribe
04-25-2018, 05:52 PM
You can state that all you want, giving him more games isn't going to make a difference. If you want to waste the teams time by giving him more, fine, but it's pointless to throw away games like that.
Why wouldn't more games make a difference? The key to improving as a QB is reps. That's
common knowledge, isn't it? I know they wouldn't want to blow a season by trying to give
Paxton experience. But keeping him around for while wouldn't hurt. It worked for Aaron
Rodgers. Not that Lynch is anything like Rodgers, but I'm just saying there are ways to
develop a player. And if the FO hasn't given up on him, well, they are the ones who have
seen him up close day after day.

topscribe
04-25-2018, 05:53 PM
niiiice. . . right on, top-- you just gave me a reason to dread me incipient old age a little less!

:cheers:
I'm at the age where I need a few drinks to walk straight . . .

ShaneFalco
04-25-2018, 05:53 PM
Chris Harris knows Broncos have Swag kelly on the roster. The True QB of the Future. The truest that ever lived.

topscribe
04-25-2018, 05:55 PM
Chris Harris knows Broncos have Swag kelly on the roster. The True QB of the Future. The truest that ever lived.
Truest who ever lived? You are aware of John Elway and Peyton Manning having been on this team, aren't you?

ShaneFalco
04-25-2018, 05:56 PM
Truest who ever lived? You are aware of John Elway and Peyton Manning having been on this team, aren't you?

Step aside. Swag taking over.

He put his AK down and started loading it up with footballs instead of bullets.

topscribe
04-25-2018, 05:59 PM
Step aside. Swag taking over.

He put his AK down and started loading it up with footballs instead of bullets.
Long Live the Swag! :woot:
.

spikerman
04-25-2018, 07:14 PM
You can state that all you want, giving him more games isn't going to make a difference. If you want to waste the teams time by giving him more, fine, but it's pointless to throw away games like that.

Take a look at Peyton Manning’s first year. No, PL is not PM, but it’s a good thing they didn’t give up on him after 16 tough early games.

Freyaka
04-25-2018, 07:28 PM
Take a look at Peyton Manning’s first year. No, PL is not PM, but it’s a good thing they didn’t give up on him after 16 tough early games.

Peyton put the work in, Paxton doesn't. That's the difference. What Paxton is lacking is between the ears, not on the field. Dude is soft as charmin...

Chillez
04-25-2018, 07:40 PM
Paxton has ton of physical ability he lacks the mental aspect and the intangibles to be anything good in NFL.

spikerman
04-25-2018, 07:45 PM
Paxton doesn't...

I don’t think any of us knows this to be accurate.

Hawgdriver
04-25-2018, 07:56 PM
This thread makes me want to drink heavily.

Yeah, it drove me to drink. Either this thread or the fact that beer is great.

Hawgdriver
04-25-2018, 08:41 PM
Nope - just tired of being insulted and attacked because you can't seem to remember my points when I made them.

Hey Kinger. My point was that PL was injured at the start of this season and then again later. You want to start him and see what he has? He has to be on the active roster.

There are other small circumstances but it's water under the bridge and I don't care to revisit it.

Start him from the get-go as a rookie? Sure. It would have to have been Elway by fiat, not sure if that's a wise approach, but we could all understand it. Perhaps it was a mistake.

spikerman
04-25-2018, 08:55 PM
Start him from the get-go as a rookie? Sure. It would have to have been Elway by fiat, not sure if that's a wise approach, but we could all understand it. Perhaps it was a mistake.
This is what I advocated from the beginning. There would have been some rough times, but at some point you’ve got to let him play and learn..... more than four games. Had the Broncos done that they would probably be in the same position they’re in now, but they would know for sure if he had enough promise to be the future.

Poet
04-25-2018, 09:04 PM
This is what I advocated from the beginning. There would have been some rough times, but at some point you’ve got to let him play and learn..... more than four games. Had the Broncos done that they would probably be in the same position they’re in now, but they would know for sure if he had enough promise to be the future.

Yep.

Spiker, I love you, man.

BroncoWave
04-25-2018, 09:18 PM
This is what I advocated from the beginning. There would have been some rough times, but at some point you’ve got to let him play and learn..... more than four games. Had the Broncos done that they would probably be in the same position they’re in now, but they would know for sure if he had enough promise to be the future.

Yeah, it really feels like we just completely wasted the last two years with Siemian, and now we're stuck in the position of having a top 5 pick without 100% knowing if we need to spend it on a QB.

spikerman
04-25-2018, 09:24 PM
Yeah, it really feels like we just completely wasted the last two years with Siemian, and now we're stuck in the position of having a top 5 pick without 100% knowing if we need to spend it on a QB.

This is exactly what I was afraid of. Instead, the Broncos tried to win with a QB that, if you needed three yards, would throw it for three years - and if you needed eight yards, would throw it for three yards. That got the team nowhere and never made sense to me.

Poet
04-25-2018, 09:27 PM
This is exactly what I was afraid of. Instead, the Broncos tried to win with a QB that, if you needed three yards, would throw it for three years - and if you needed eight yards, would throw it for three yards. That got the team nowhere and never made sense to me.

Spiker, you are the real MVP.

BroncoWave
04-25-2018, 09:34 PM
This is exactly what I was afraid of. Instead, the Broncos tried to win with a QB that, if you needed three yards, would throw it for three years - and if you needed eight yards, would throw it for three yards. That got the team nowhere and never made sense to me.

I still think we should use the pick on a QB since, in my opinion, Lynch looked totally irredeemable in the little time he did play, but I'm not entirely convinced Elway feels the same. I'm terrified that he's clinging to the hope of not drafting 2 bust QBs and doesn't want to pull the trigger on a third.

At least there are 3 legit non QB studs at least one of which we should have a crack at, so that does soften the blow.

spikerman
04-25-2018, 09:47 PM
I’m hoping for Chubb or Nelson at 5, but I think the Broncos are going to make a mistake and trade the pick.

BroncoWave
04-25-2018, 09:49 PM
I’m hoping for Chubb or Nelson at 5, but I think the Broncos are going to make a mistake and trade the pick.

Yeah there is gonna be a blue chipper there if we want it. No need to get cute.

Hawgdriver
04-25-2018, 09:57 PM
This is what I advocated from the beginning. There would have been some rough times, but at some point you’ve got to let him play and learn..... more than four games. Had the Broncos done that they would probably be in the same position they’re in now, but they would know for sure if he had enough promise to be the future.

But he's a 2-3 year project. How could we possibly know?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

You guys tell me if you see it differently, but his utter lack of growth or even regression from week 5 of 2016 to week 12 of 2017 doesn't fill me with optimism for the future of Paxton Lynch. If he doesn't have the hunger to seize his moment when it arises (a hunger that manifests itself through preparation), what makes us think he's going to do it years from now? That's not how franchise QBs should roll.

Hawgdriver
04-25-2018, 09:59 PM
Yeah, it really feels like we just completely wasted the last two years with Siemian, and now we're stuck in the position of having a top 5 pick without 100% knowing if we need to spend it on a QB.

Or, we developed a 7th rounder into a 5th rounder, and haven't ruined PL's trade value.

spikerman
04-25-2018, 10:03 PM
But he's a 2-3 year project. How could we possibly know?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

You guys tell me if you see it differently, but his utter lack of growth or even regression from week 5 of 2016 to week 12 of 2017 doesn't fill me with optimism for the future of Paxton Lynch. If he doesn't have the hunger to seize his moment when it arises (a hunger that manifests itself through preparation), what makes us think he's going to do it years from now? That's not how franchise QBs should roll.

We don’t know because he’s not on the field. Even a project, with enough playing time, would reveal that he can or can’t play in this league. None of us here know what’s actually going on behind the scenes. We only see what happens on Sundays which is why we need to see him play.

dogfish
04-25-2018, 10:16 PM
We don’t know because he’s not on the field. Even a project, with enough playing time, would reveal that he can or can’t play in this league. None of us here know what’s actually going on behind the scenes. We only see what happens on Sundays which is why we need to see him play.

i don't. . . if our coaches and front office don't think he's good enough, i'll take their word for it. . .

Poet
04-25-2018, 10:20 PM
i don't. . . if our coaches and front office don't think he's good enough, i'll take their word for it. . .

I would say that we needed to see him play, especially in year two. I also think that because TS was always so bad, and always so limited, that it was an exercise in futility to start him, so getting the young prospect time to play made sense. That's the issue. The entire thing was mismanaged from the start because we talked ourselves into believing we were better than what we were.

We aren't who we thought we were!

DenBronx
04-25-2018, 10:32 PM
Mike Mayock has Josh Allen falling to 5 in his mock draft but projects us to take Nelson instead.

Northman
04-26-2018, 04:55 AM
We don’t know because he’s not on the field. Even a project, with enough playing time, would reveal that he can or can’t play in this league. None of us here know what’s actually going on behind the scenes. We only see what happens on Sundays which is why we need to see him play.

Well, if Denver takes another QB at 5 than i dont see anyway that Lynch sees the field ever again at least for Denver.

Northman
04-26-2018, 04:56 AM
I would say that we needed to see him play, especially in year two. I also think that because TS was always so bad, and always so limited, that it was an exercise in futility to start him, so getting the young prospect time to play made sense. That's the issue. The entire thing was mismanaged from the start because we talked ourselves into believing we were better than what we were.

We aren't who we thought we were!

Thats where my frustration with John is coming from. He talks about "winning now" but the hiring of a rookie HC and using Siemian as your leader on offense screams "rebuild" to me. John just seems to be trying to do two different things with the team and its crashing horribly right now.

Northman
04-26-2018, 04:57 AM
Mike Mayock has Josh Allen falling to 5 in his mock draft but projects us to take Nelson instead.

If we are smart we will pass on a QB at 5.

Shazam!
04-26-2018, 05:13 AM
...but how many times will Denver have a Top 5 pick and a chance on a franchise QB tho

Northman
04-26-2018, 05:26 AM
...but how many times will Denver have a Top 5 pick and a chance on a franchise QB tho

In its current state? Maybe even next year. Its going to depend a lot on the success of Case Keenum. If Denver had not signed him i would be totally on board with drafting a QB at 5. But Elway has once again put his chips in on a young but experienced QB and made the proclamation that Denver is in a "win now" mode. So the logical decision to me is to do whatever it takes to surround and load your team with the best possible talent (aka what Chris Harris is talking about) to achieve that. 4 Qb's on the roster only takes up space. Denver needs to approach this like they did with Von and take a player who can be an immediate impact to help win championships since that is JFE's mantra. If John and company just wanted to rebuild than great but his move to sign Keenum while keeping Lynch says something else entirely.

Northman
04-26-2018, 05:29 AM
Keenum is either going to be the long term answer for Denver at QB or simply a stop gap until we know what Lynch is or isnt going to be personal opinions aside. Pulling a Detroit Lions and drafting QB after QB like they did with receivers isnt the answer in my opinion.

TXBRONC
04-26-2018, 07:51 AM
I’m hoping for Chubb or Nelson at 5, but I think the Broncos are going to make a mistake and trade the pick.

If they're trading back to get a guy like McGlinchey I could live with that.

CoachChaz
04-26-2018, 08:08 AM
If they're trading back to get a guy like McGlinchey I could live with that.

Not sure I'm interested in drafting a RT that likely wont contribute this year anywhere in the first round right now

TXBRONC
04-26-2018, 08:26 AM
Not sure I'm interested in drafting a RT that likely wont contribute this year anywhere in the first round right now

Like his more famous line mate he could be plugged in right away. His natural position is left tackle correct? Plug him in at left tackle and moves Bolles over to the right.

CoachChaz
04-26-2018, 08:41 AM
Like his more famous line mate he could be plugged in right away. His natural position is left tackle correct? Plug him in at left tackle and moves Bolles over to the right.

Actually, I was reading some quotes from NFL personnel and most of them are of the consensus that McGlinchey is a natural RT at the NFL level. If he improved his footwork, he could be plugged in at LT, but not right away.

TXBRONC
04-26-2018, 08:43 AM
Actually, I was reading some quotes from NFL personnel and most of them are of the consensus that McGlinchey is a natural RT at the NFL level. If he improved his footwork, he could be plugged in at LT, but not right away.

Didn't he play left tackle at Notre Dame?

CoachChaz
04-26-2018, 08:51 AM
Didn't he play left tackle at Notre Dame?

He did. But I was referring to his skills translating to the NFL.

underrated29
04-26-2018, 09:22 AM
In its current state? Maybe even next year. Its going to depend a lot on the success of Case Keenum. If Denver had not signed him i would be totally on board with drafting a QB at 5. But Elway has once again put his chips in on a young but experienced QB and made the proclamation that Denver is in a "win now" mode. So the logical decision to me is to do whatever it takes to surround and load your team with the best possible talent (aka what Chris Harris is talking about) to achieve that. 4 Qb's on the roster only takes up space. Denver needs to approach this like they did with Von and take a player who can be an immediate impact to help win championships since that is JFE's mantra. If John and company just wanted to rebuild than great but his move to sign Keenum while keeping Lynch says something else entirely.



You do know we will come out if this draft w a qb though, right? It will happen and we will have 4 qbs. We have to go go into camp. Need 4 of them.

Poet
04-26-2018, 09:24 AM
It's almost time.

GEM
04-26-2018, 09:26 AM
The defense wanted TS to start.

They picked the best of shit. All the qb's on the roster were shit, they picked the one that sucked least.

GEM
04-26-2018, 09:27 AM
Harris and his defensive teammates have shit taste in QB’s.

They wanted TS over the better talent, now they want CK over better talent.

Meanwhile, this defense isn’t nearly as dominant as it used to be, so the question is; what, exactly, are you “trying to win now”?

The Broncos are ******.

Who was the better talent? :laugh: And that's not complimenting TS cause he was shit, absolute shit.

Poet
04-26-2018, 09:27 AM
Thats where my frustration with John is coming from. He talks about "winning now" but the hiring of a rookie HC and using Siemian as your leader on offense screams "rebuild" to me. John just seems to be trying to do two different things with the team and its crashing horribly right now.

That's my criticism of CK - but that's also predicated on how I view CK.

Poet
04-26-2018, 09:32 AM
They picked the best of shit. All the qb's on the roster were shit, they picked the one that sucked least.

They picked the one with the highest floor and the lowest ceiling. They did that during a time where we were not a strong contending team under the silly belief that we were going to plug in game manager QB and still contend.

Hypothetical - let's say we had picked up a solid average starter in FA that year. I would have understood that. Instead we put in a seventh rounder with almost no ability. It is what it is.

GEM
04-26-2018, 09:40 AM
They picked the one with the highest floor and the lowest ceiling. They did that during a time where we were not a strong contending team under the silly belief that we were going to plug in game manager QB and still contend.

Hypothetical - let's say we had picked up a solid average starter in FA that year. I would have understood that. Instead we put in a seventh rounder with almost no ability. It is what it is.

And that's not on the defense, that's on the front office. The defense thought they had the swagger to pull off overcoming the offense deficiencies. Hell, they won a Super Bowl overcoming the offense. But they lost a couple players that allowed them to be elite, then they were just pretty good.

Poet
04-26-2018, 09:46 AM
And that's not on the defense, that's on the front office. The defense thought they had the swagger to pull off overcoming the offense deficiencies. Hell, they won a Super Bowl overcoming the offense. But they lost a couple players that allowed them to be elite, then they were just pretty good.

I don't begrudge the defense for being confident - I begrudge them for being so naive. The post that you quoted, 'they' could be either the front office, the players, or the HC. I like CHJ. I'm sympathetic to his frustration because he doesn't want to start over he wants to contend.

Well, this is inevitable. He got a SB ring out of it. He's a well paid elite corner and this team helped to make him. Surely doing a proper rebuild and taking a season or two to do so pays off in the long run, even for him, because then the team can ACTUALLY contend and not pretend to contend.

I fear that Denver is kicking the can down the road. I think we're in denial.

But, **** it. Shit's still exciting.

Northman
04-26-2018, 10:01 AM
You do know we will come out if this draft w a qb though, right? It will happen and we will have 4 qbs. We have to go go into camp. Need 4 of them.

Then if we do we need to take one later. If we are in a win now mode we need more 1st day starters.

SmilinAssasSin27
04-26-2018, 06:53 PM
Maybe he'll get his wish...and we get that QB at 2.

Cugel
04-28-2018, 09:28 AM
Maybe he'll get his wish...and we get that QB at 2.

No soup for you!

SmilinAssasSin27
04-28-2018, 09:37 AM
No soup for you!

Wasn't my wish