Broncos among worst in creating offensive line value

[Hawgdriver]

No shocker here, but this bit of scholarship indicates that the Broncos have been among the worst in the league at getting value from veteran lineman contracts. I wonder how much is scouting/evaluation and how much is coaching/development.


For both the Broncos and Jaguars we likely have a similar scenario to the Giants.
Each only have two observations in the data set. For the Jaguars, Jermey Parnell was
flagged as overvalued with a player score of 1.318. And for the Broncos, Donald
Stephenson was flagged as overvalued with a player score of 1.293. These score coupled
with the fact that each only had one teammate, both of which had scores of about 1,
means these teams get flagged as poor at creating value with their veteran offensive
linemen.

http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2634&context=cmc_theses

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Shocker....our line sux. If only there was a way to fix that.

[Davii]

No shocker here, but this bit of scholarship indicates that the Broncos have been among the worst in the league at getting value from veteran lineman contracts. I wonder how much is scouting/evaluation and how much is coaching/development.



http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2634&context=cmc_theses

I think it's more coaching/scheme. Okung couldn't block a wet dream here but was serviceable elsewhere

[Buff]

You can trace this back to Clady. We signed him to a 5 year deal in 2013 and never really got any production out of him after that due to his injuries... So we've been playing catchup ever since trying to piecemeal the line together.

Bolles should help stop the bleeding - but man he sucked last year. This would certainly support the case for taking Nelson.

[7alpha30]

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php/607865-OL?p=2739717#post2739717

They should invest a top 3 pick (round 1-3) in the line every year.

[Simple Jaded]

This also goes back to having a TE coach “developing” the OL, letting players start games when they don’t practice all season, lack of depth and the lack of time you can spend with players under this CBA.

Just look at their depth over the years, sure their starters suck but their backups are undrafted free agents. The only reason Stephenson was swing T last year was because they didn’t want the dead money of cutting him. McGovern never saw the field because the stiff they got from the Eagles got in the way.

You’d think these dudes would show some personal pride and do the extra offseason/after practice work anyway.

[topscribe]

No shocker here, but this bit of scholarship indicates that the Broncos have been among the worst in the league at getting value from veteran lineman contracts. I wonder how much is scouting/evaluation and how much is coaching/development.



http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2634&context=cmc_theses
I think that's about to change. Anyone would have to admit that Leary was a stupendous signing.
Paradis was an excellent draft choice, and Bolles is a budding star. Veldheer was a dramatic
upgrade to what was there before (which isn't really saying much, I understand, but we'll see).
And this years OL class in the draft is really deep. I think the Broncos will come out of this with
a really strong OL with some depth . . . finally.

[Simple Jaded]

I think that's about to change. Anyone would have to admit that Leary was a stupendous signing.
Paradis was an excellent draft choice, and Bolles is a budding star. Veldheer was a dramatic
upgrade to what was there before (which isn't really saying much, I understand, but we'll see).
And this years OL class in the draft is really deep. I think the Broncos will come out of this with
a really strong OL with some depth . . . finally.

Really hitting the koolaid hard lately Top, I’m worried about you.

[Poet]

I felt last offseason how Top feels now. If Bolles does improve (he's going to have to improve a lot) and the new RT stays healthy, another solid addition would make the starting line, at least, respectable.

[Simple Jaded]

Paradis isn’t excellent, Bolles has a long way to go to be a star, Veldheer wasn’t good last year and this draft class isn’t deep.

The Broncos are so concerned about their depth that they resigned Billy Turner.

Leary was a good signing, the one guy that wasn’t a liability.

[Poet]

Paradis isn’t excellent, Bolles has a long way to go to be a star, Veldheer wasn’t good last year.

Leary was a good signing, the one guy that wasn’t a liability.

Paradis is one of the best centers in the game baby! Bolles is a legitimate talent and I do think he will pan out. Valdheer wasn't that great of a signing, has health issues, and is overpaid. But, he's probably better than any other option we have. If he gets hurt though...oh lord.

Leary is a monster.

A solid line isn't too far off. I'm just saying. I hope.

[Simple Jaded]

Paradis is one of the best centers in the game baby! Bolles is a legitimate talent and I do think he will pan out. Valdheer wasn't that great of a signing, has health issues, and is overpaid. But, he's probably better than any other option we have. If he gets hurt though...oh lord.

Leary is a monster.

A solid line isn't too far off. I'm just saying. I hope.

Paradis is JAG.

Agreed on Bolles but he’s got a long way to go.

Clady had health issues and never made it, and let’s be honest, Veldheer would be bucking years of Broncos trend of shit results from making the same damn mistakes. Basically the Broncos are getting what they pay for and end up going back to the drawing board every year.

They’re 3 new starters away from a solid OL.

[Poet]

Paradis is JAG.

Agreed on Bolles but he’s got a long way to go.

Clady had health issues and never made it, and let’s be honest, Veldheer would be bucking years of Broncos trend of shit results from making the same damn mistakes. Basically the Broncos are getting what they pay for and end up going back to the drawing board every year.

They’re 3 new starters away from a solid OL.

If Bolles gets his holding under control he's a solid LT. It's a lot of work, but it's not a daunting task of infinity!

Paradis is a damn fine center. You and Buff are haters!

Veldheer just has to be average. We're still paying a lot of money for an injury prone RT.

[Simple Jaded]

If Bolles gets his holding under control he's a solid LT. It's a lot of work, but it's not a daunting task of infinity!

Paradis is a damn fine center. You and Buff are haters!

Veldheer just has to be average. We're still paying a lot of money for an injury prone RT.
I don’t get Paradis, is it the underdog story? What’s the fascination?

There is nothing special about him.

[Poet]

I don’t get Paradis, is it the underdog story? What’s the fascination?

There is nothing special about him.

He's just a good center. I'm not saying he's HoF material. But he's a good center.

[Simple Jaded]

Small, no power, misses A-gap pass rushers, gets trucked in pass pro and run game all the damn time, average in every way. Been the leader/makes line calls for an annually pathetic OL every year he’s been a starter.

He’s the Zane Beadles of C’s.

[Poet]

Small, no power, misses A-gap pass rushers, gets trucked in pass pro and run game all the damn time, average in every way. Been the leader/makes line calls for an annually pathetic OL every year he’s been a starter.

You just described Jeff Saturday, who one day might make the HoF. Paradis is an overall effective blocker. He's worked wonders through injuries and with suspect talent around him. He had to make calls for the scrub QB's we've put behind him, too.

[Simple Jaded]

You just described Jeff Saturday, who one day might make the HoF. Paradis is an overall effective blocker. He's worked wonders through injuries and with suspect talent around him. He had to make calls for the scrub QB's we've put behind him, too.

My point is, he’s also a suspect talent.

Gary Kubiak probably thinks he’s Dwight Stevenson.

[Poet]

My point is, he’s also a suspect talent.

Gary Kubiak probably thinks he’s Dwight Stevenson.

Sometimes you outplay your talent. Then sometimes you're a POS like TS.

[Hawgdriver]

Basically the Broncos are getting what they pay for and end up going back to the drawing board every year.

If they got what they paid for it wouldn't be as bad as it is. Watson, Stephenson, Okung, is they played up to their contract the line would have been closer to average.

[TXBRONC]

Really hitting the koolaid hard lately Top, I’m worried about you.

I could be wrong but I don't see Top koolaid kind of guy. I think he's mentioned he likes having a beer every once-in-awhile, and would be surprised if like brotein shakes, but koolaid? Nah.

[chazoe60]

I think that's about to change. Anyone would have to admit that Leary was a stupendous signing.
Paradis was an excellent draft choice, and Bolles is a budding star. Veldheer was a dramatic
upgrade to what was there before (which isn't really saying much, I understand, but we'll see).
And this years OL class in the draft is really deep. I think the Broncos will come out of this with
a really strong OL with some depth . . . finally.

How is Bolles a budding star? He was awful last season. He was the oldest of the 3 tackle prospects in last years draft and turned out to be the worst of the 3.

[CoachChaz]

How is Bolles a budding star? He was awful last season. He was the oldest of the 3 tackle prospects in last years draft and turned out to be the worst of the 3.

I'll agree the jury is still out on Bolles as it pertains to "budding star", but would argue that Robinson was terrrible last year and Ramczyk plays right tackle. So, Bolles was actually the best rookie LT last year. Technically.

[Rick]

Don't say this too loud you will wake up Joel.

[chazoe60]

I'll agree the jury is still out on Bolles as it pertains to "budding star", but would argue that Robinson was terrrible last year and Ramczyk plays right tackle. So, Bolles was actually the best rookie LT last year. Technically.

Then this was arguably the worst LT class in history because Bolles was not good. He's a below average, and well below average, starting LT in the NFL.

[CoachChaz]

Then this was arguably the worst LT class in history because Bolles was not good. He's a below average, and well below average, starting LT in the NFL.

Agreed on both statements. But he was a rookie at a premium position. He'll never be Joe Thomas, but he can still be much better. The bigger problem in all this is the lack of OT development at the college level. QB's and WR's coming to the NFL with limited exposure to pro-style offenses is discussed all the time, but no one ever mentions how that also affects the quality of blockers. The quality of LT's in this current draft is only marginally better than last year due to the quantity of them, but they ALL need work. 2019 holds some hope with Greg Little and Trey Adams, but not much beyond those two.

Point being, while Bolles isn't great, he does appear to be the best of what was available at a time of need.

[chazoe60]

Agreed on both statements. But he was a rookie at a premium position. He'll never be Joe Thomas, but he can still be much better. The bigger problem in all this is the lack of OT development at the college level. QB's and WR's coming to the NFL with limited exposure to pro-style offenses is discussed all the time, but no one ever mentions how that also affects the quality of blockers. The quality of LT's in this current draft is only marginally better than last year due to the quantity of them, but they ALL need work. 2019 holds some hope with Greg Little and Trey Adams, but not much beyond those two.

Point being, while Bolles isn't great, he does appear to be the best of what was available at a time of need.
I agree with your assessment of the college game. But I do think we should have drafted Ramczyk. Yes he played RT for the saints but for us he would have been a LT and I just simply believe he's a better player. Our timing sucks. We had a huge need at LT in the worst LT class that I can ever remember and we ended up drafting a guy that in a lot of other tackle classes would have been a 2nd rounder at best.

[CoachChaz]

I agree with your assessment of the college game. But I do think we should have drafted Ramczyk. Yes he played RT for the saints but for us he would have been a LT and I just simply believe he's a better player. Our timing sucks. We had a huge need at LT in the worst LT class that I can ever remember and we ended up drafting a guy that in a lot of other tackle classes would have been a 2nd rounder at best.

Another way to look at it is Ramczyk played RT because Armstead is at LT...and Armstead wasn't "that" much better than Bolles was last year. Nevertheless...all of the guys last year AND this year are no better than 2nd round talent. Inevitably, it's going to come down to how well these players are developed by their NFL teams, becasue the college teams are doing nothing with them lately. So, in a way, we are a bit ahead of the curveball in that regard. Now it's just a matter of development on our end.

[topscribe]

How is Bolles a budding star? He was awful last season. He was the oldest of the 3 tackle prospects in last years draft and turned out to be the worst of the 3.
You're debating that with me and a whole lot of other people.

I believe he is a budding star, and so do a whole lot of other people.

That is all.

[topscribe]

Really hitting the koolaid hard lately Top, I’m worried about you.
Why, because my world isn't as dark as yours?

A little optimism surely draws a lot of fire here. What's wrong with people on this forum? :tsk:

[NightTerror218]

How is Bolles a budding star? He was awful last season. He was the oldest of the 3 tackle prospects in last years draft and turned out to be the worst of the 3.

He was the best tackle drafted last season and earned all rookie team. A little harsh

[Simple Jaded]

If they got what they paid for it wouldn't be as bad as it is. Watson, Stephenson, Okung, is they played up to their contract the line would have been closer to average.

I didn’t say they haven’t tried, basically I’m saying they failed.

[Simple Jaded]

Why, because my world isn't as dark as yours?

A little optimism surely draws a lot of fire here. What's wrong with people on this forum? :tsk:

A little optimism?

Btw, it’s not everyone on this forum, pretty much just me. I’ll remind all the butthurt Pollyanna’s that I was literally the only one on this forum that was “optimistic” about all QB’s involved in ‘17, now I’m throwing stones at glass houses because I don’t see CK as a massive upgrade.

What IS wrong with people on this forum? :tsk:

[Poet]

A little optimism?

Btw, it’s not everyone on this forum, pretty much just me. I’ll remind all the butthurt Pollyanna’s that I was literally the only one on this forum that was “optimistic” about all QB’s involved in ‘17, now I’m throwing stones at glass houses because I don’t see CK as a massive upgrade.

What IS wrong with people on this forum? :tsk:

I'm hoping CK puts up real numbers next season.

[chazoe60]

He was the best tackle drafted last season and earned all rookie team. A little harsh

He sucks.

[topscribe]

A little optimism?

Btw, it’s not everyone on this forum, pretty much just me. I’ll remind all the butthurt Pollyanna’s that I was literally the only one on this forum that was “optimistic” about all QB’s involved in ‘17, now I’m throwing stones at glass houses because I don’t see CK as a massive upgrade.

What IS wrong with people on this forum? :tsk:
Your opinion of Keenum is pretty empty because you are not even willing to look into him.
You said you didn't bother to read my post on him, which was all about him. I didn't
understand that because it took a lot more time and effort for me to research and write
it than it would have for you simply to read it. So you don't really know much about him,
and you don't seem to want to.

That's okay. It's your prerogative, of course. We're still friends. I just don't want to
discuss Keenum with you anymore. :wave:

[topscribe]

I'm hoping CK puts up real numbers next season.
However we feel about him, I'm certain we all do.

[Cugel]

No shocker here, but this bit of scholarship indicates that the Broncos have been among the worst in the league at getting value from veteran lineman contracts. I wonder how much is scouting/evaluation and how much is coaching/development.

http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2634&context=cmc_theses

The story is one of rank incompetence actually.

Over the years, since the Elway era, the OL steadily declined especially after Shanahan was fired in 2009.

In 2013, their pro-bowl LT Ryan Clady got hurt and missed the SB season. In 2014 he came back and didn't do well. In 2015 he was hurt again in training camp (same knee) and never really recovered.

During this time the team kept hoping he would recover. Meanwhile they managed to go to a SB with backup LT Chris Clark.

Since they got Manning in 2012 they were able to rely on Manning to cover up for the OL deficiencies. It seems like they felt they could ignore the OL and concentrate on other areas.

Their draft picks reflected that:

2011: T Orlando Franklin, 2nd round. He sucked at T so they moved him to LG in 2014, but he still sucked so they got rid of him in 2015. Another bust.
2012: No OL drafted
2013: Vinson Painter, OT 6th round (bust)
("We've got Manning! Who needs good OL?")

2014: By 2014 the situation was getting pretty dire. They were still hoping Clady would come back and drafted T Micheal Schofield in the 3rd round.

He was a bust, but 6th round C Matt Paradis has proven a useful starter (although he's had surgeries on both hips now).

2015: Ty Sambrailo, 2nd round & C Max Garcia 4th round. They pressed Sambrailo immediately into service when Clady re-injured his knee in training camp. But, he immediately injured his shoulder. They rushed him back after a couple of weeks, but he immediately re-injured it again and was done for the season. Garcia ended up starting and sucking at LG.

This was the year of the Manning self-sack. You remember all the DL coming totally free past the hopeless Broncos OL and Manning just throwing himself to the ground to avoid being crushed.

2016: G Connor McGovern, 3rd round. Despite the horrible OL they tried to patch the line up with more band-aids. McGovern has been a backup the last 2 years until pressed into service when worthless Garcia retired on Sundays and failed to tell anybody. He played well enough that they might even have an adequate, although not great starter.

2017: Reaching the level of absolute desperation they drafted Garrett Bolles at #20 of the first round. He immediately started and led the league in penalties but could improve with experience.

So, you'd have to say Connor McGovern and Matt Paradis are the one bright spots in terms of drafting and developing OL talent in the last 8-10 years.

Virtually every other starter was some FA they brought in whose previous team didn't want him, or who was injured and being given a chance by the Broncos.

The FA crop wasn't great either:

Donald Stephenson, Menelik Watson, Russell Okung, Evan Mathis, and now Jared Vendeer. Ron Leary played out of position at RG last year because the incomparable Max Garcia couldn't play RG and they needed to play him at LT because they had noone else.

They have been overpaying for below mediocre OL (outside Leary) for years now. They have to do this because they didn't bother to even draft an OL for years, and the ones they did select mostly sucked.

The best quality FA OL cost a boat-load of $ and the Broncos have been "bargain shopping" and coming up with mismatched socks and outfits that don't fit or the seams melt in the rain.

"We'll, ignore the problem and it will definitely go away!" -- John Elway

FA is a way to patch a couple of holes with high-priced veterans. You're not supposed to use it to supply your entire team.

[Simple Jaded]

McGovern was a 5th round pick, Veldheer was acquired in trade (not FA) and Leary moved to RB instead of LT. And * Well.

Just because I like correcting you.

[Chillez]

Elway and company since 2011 have drafted like dogshit on offense. I can’t think of any impact players on offense let alone any that have made the pro bowl we have drafted since Elway took over as GM.

[Simple Jaded]

Elway and company since 2011 have drafted like dogshit on offense. I can’t think of any impact players on offense let alone any that have made the pro bowl we have drafted since Elway took over as GM.

Elway has only drafted two Pro Bowlers, Miller and Julius Thomas.

[Chillez]

Elway has only drafted two Pro Bowlers, Miller and Julius Thomas.

Yeah now that you mentioned it Elway has been average at best.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Elway has only drafted two Pro Bowlers, Miller and Julius Thomas.

Wolfe and Danny T have made it haven’t they?

[Simple Jaded]

Wolfe and Danny T have made it haven’t they?

Don’t think so, Paradis either. This is from an NFL Network article I just read.

Standby for link.

[Simple Jaded]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000927154/article/gm-power-rankings-howie-roseman-kevin-colbert-among-best

If this list had been constructed after the 2015 season, Elway would have been near the top spot. If he goes through another season with the same old problems in Denver, then he won't be in the top 10 a year from now. Elway's inability to field a competitive offensive line, find a consistent running back or plan for life after Peyton Manning has grown worrisome. His recent drafts have provided few quality starters, and Elway hasn't picked a Pro Bowler since his first draft yielded Von Miller and Julius Thomas. Nothing can erase Elway's incredible touch in free agency building a Super Bowl champion, but the signing of Case Keenum speaks to a larger existential crisis. There's a lot of hoping and not enough home-grown talent

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Ouch

[Simple Jaded]

The obvious omission is Harris, apparently because he went undrafted.