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WARHORSE
04-08-2018, 04:17 AM
Case Keenum did not know he was going to start for the Vikings last year. He started off slowly.

Case Keenums progression under the circumstances of changing teams 6......yes 6......times out of 7 years is amazing considering what we understand of todays complex offenses.

Im not going to do the all the hard work for you but I'll share a very encouraging bit of news about Keenum.....but check out the career stats of some great NFL passers in this league on your own below and their progression as NFL quarterbacks as compared to Case.

Interesting: Minnesota's bye week was week 9...same as the Patriots. There were 8 games left in the season starting week 10 for both.

Over the last 8 games of the season, Keenum outplayed every quarterback in the league and against better competition. Brees and Brady were almost in step.

But best in the league was Keenum. You know where they ranked him after the season?

Look for yourself.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000920622/article/quarterback-rankings-top-32-signalcallers-across-nfl

Even if you put up his entire season, the man had a great year. Over the last 8 games? No one better.

Anyway lets compare.

Over the last 8 games:


1. Keenum-----71.7% Completion percentage 15 touchdowns 4 Interceptions

3. Brady--------66.4% Completion percentage 16 touchdowns 6 Interceptions

4. Brees--------72.4% Completion percentage 10 touchdowns 4 Interceptions


Of course, Im not saying anything about the post season as both Brees and Brady and their teams/coaching staffs have WAY more playoff experience. But ask Brees about his game in Minnesota......lol.


Some say he's on a one year contract and ready for the door.......that may be true. But the Broncos may have just helped him get the biggest contract he could ever have hoped for. If Keenum shows up and blows the socks off of everyone.....this two year contract will have been his greatest decision......Especially with a new collective bargaining agreement due in 3 years.

Why shouldn't we hope that he turns out to be a Brees type? He displayed some great quarterbacking last season.

Why shouldn't we give him some damn help in this draft?

John the damn duke Elway may have done it again.



http://www.nfl.com/player/casekeenum/2532888/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/drewbrees/2504775/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/tombrady/2504211/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/joemontana/2502166/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/steveyoung/2503843/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/danmarino/2501869/careerstats

HORSEPOWER 56
04-08-2018, 04:26 AM
That’s an awful lot of stats and stuff, War. I went back and watched every game he played and every pass Keenum made last year after we signed him. He’s... okay. He’s Jake Plummer with a little more accuracy/decision making ability but less arm strength and real ability to run (not just scramble). He was a small ball QB who played small ball and did well. Lots (and I mean lots!) of screens and <5 yard dump offs. When he did throw downfield he often got lucky and/or bailed out by Thielen and Diggs. The big difference between Keenum last year and other QBs of his talent level is that his gambles worked. He should’ve thrown 3x the Ints that he did. We’ll get to see him first hand this season and I’d be willing to bet he’s gonna be more 2016 Keenum than 2017.

Cugel
04-08-2018, 06:32 AM
Everybody is saying Keenum is a "bridge QB" but bridge to what? I say it's a one-year audition to become the Broncos long term franchise QB.

If he doesn't work out, they can cut him next year and take a $10m cap hit. I doubt they want to do that, but they could conceivably trade him somewhere for something.

This is regardless of whether the Broncos have drafted a QB or not. If they don't take a QB in the first round, then it's likely Keenum's the guy for the next 2 seasons.

The Broncos could draft a QB in 2019 as well as now. The rest of the team is going to need serious work anyway - like they are 8-10 starters away from a SB parade.

Shazam!
04-08-2018, 06:47 AM
Is he better than Trevor Siemien? Without a doubt.

Northman
04-08-2018, 07:03 AM
I sure hope for the best but i will always point to guys like this as to why you cant just crown someone THE guy after one season. It just doesnt work like that.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeDe00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/det/1995.htm

The Jury is still out on guys like Keenum and Foles.

WARHORSE
04-08-2018, 07:28 AM
I sure hope for the best but i will always point to guys like this as to why you cant just crown someone THE guy after one season. It just doesnt work like that.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeDe00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/det/1995.htm

The Jury is still out on guys like Keenum and Foles.


True.

Lets wait and see.

WARHORSE
04-08-2018, 07:31 AM
That’s an awful lot of stats and stuff, War. I went back and watched every game he played and every pass Keenum made last year after we signed him. He’s... okay. He’s Jake Plummer with a little more accuracy/decision making ability but less arm strength and real ability to run (not just scramble). He was a small ball QB who played small ball and did well. Lots (and I mean lots!) of screens and <5 yard dump offs. When he did throw downfield he often got lucky and/or bailed out by Thielen and Diggs. The big difference between Keenum last year and other QBs of his talent level is that his gambles worked. He should’ve thrown 3x the Ints that he did. We’ll get to see him first hand this season and I’d be willing to bet he’s gonna be more 2016 Keenum than 2017.


I gotta say I havent watched every Viking game and one thing a player has to do is pass the eye test. No reason to distrust your viewpoint....with all thats been said, its a year to year deal in the NFL.


Lets see what happens. :beer:

Poet
04-08-2018, 10:28 AM
Oh dear.

Simple Jaded
04-08-2018, 03:43 PM
Is he better than Trevor Siemien? .

Nope!

Simple Jaded
04-08-2018, 03:49 PM
Watch the Lions game, he completed 3 passes longer than 15-yards, iirc, and all 3 were safe outside the numbers/back shoulder throws.

Dude is L I M I T E D, extremely limited.

He’s also kind of a bitch, apparently got butthurt because Zimmer wouldn’t call him “starter”. If that were Cutler this MB would lose its collective shit.

Simple Jaded
04-08-2018, 03:52 PM
This is America, we don’t do blah. We don’t drive across the Country to see the Meh Canyon.

Davii
04-08-2018, 04:59 PM
This is America, we don’t do blah. We don’t drive across the Country to see the Meh Canyon.

Your best post here. Good work.

Nomad
04-08-2018, 05:11 PM
Jaded......let's wait and see before going atomic on Keenum. :D

Poet
04-08-2018, 05:28 PM
Jaded......let's wait and see before going atomic on Keenum. :D

Men of logic and knowledge know when something that is shit is shit. Had CK been signed anywhere else no one here would be so optimistic for him.

Poet
04-08-2018, 05:29 PM
Watch the Lions game, he completed 3 passes longer than 15-yards, iirc, and all 3 were safe outside the numbers/back shoulder throws.

Dude is L I M I T E D, extremely limited.

He’s also kind of a bitch, apparently got butthurt because Zimmer wouldn’t call him “starter”. If that were Cutler this MB would lose its collective shit.

Zimmer is a hardass and a man's man. CK is a career backup and a whiner. Zimmer, on any given day, whips CK's ass.

Davii
04-08-2018, 06:02 PM
Men of logic and knowledge know when something that is shit is shit. Had CK been signed anywhere else no one here would be so optimistic for him.

Meh. He's better than what we had and KC wasn't the answer at more money than he got from Minny. My hope is that we're taking a QB early this year and that he works out to be the franchise qb and CK truly is just a stopgap to get that guy ready.

Poet
04-08-2018, 07:00 PM
KC has a short contract and had a monster year with nothing around him. We have the same hope, though. I'm also just grumpy.

Davii
04-08-2018, 07:05 PM
KC has a short contract and had a monster year with nothing around him. We have the same hope, though. I'm also just grumpy.

He's got a 3year fully guaranteed contract for 84million. We would've had to pay more.

That's not a small, or short, contract. You're 100% married to him for three years, win or lose, as the contract is fully guaranteed.

Poet
04-08-2018, 07:07 PM
He's got a 3year fully guaranteed contract for 84million. We would've had to pay more.

That's not a small, or short, contract. You're 100% married to him for three years, win or lose, as the contract is fully guaranteed.

And he's proven three years in a row he's a legitimate QB. Whereas for ten less million, and two years where you can't really get rid of him you have a guy who proved he one time can be a game manager on a loaded team.

Three years isn't a long time. In fact, the criticism that I've seen around is that he took a short contract because he's greedy. And we didn't even take a run at him we went after a guy who historically isn't wanted. And that's fine, I guess. Lord I hope we take a first round QB.

Nomad
04-08-2018, 07:10 PM
Davii wins....concede Kinger while you have chance before getting slaughtered.

Poet
04-08-2018, 07:12 PM
Davii wins....concede Kinger while you have chance before getting slaughtered.

I was told I was being slaughtered during the PFM and Talib signing, and all last year with TS.

In other words, I should be showed deference, you savage bully.

Nomad
04-08-2018, 07:14 PM
I was told I was being slaughtered during the PFM and Talib signing, and all last year with TS.

In other words, I should be showed deference, you savage bully.

I care about you, that's why I warn. I'm like the uncle you wish you had.

Poet
04-08-2018, 07:15 PM
I care about you, that's why I warn. I'm like the uncle you wish you had.

You're the uncle who doesn't believe in me. Nomad, you're a villain! :D

Nomad
04-08-2018, 07:17 PM
You're the uncle who doesn't believe in me. Nomad, you're a villain! :D

#toughlove

Btw....I do believe I you. Now, come up to alaska and we'll do some hiking and fishing

Davii
04-08-2018, 07:17 PM
And he's proven three years in a row he's a legitimate QB. Whereas for ten less million, and two years where you can't really get rid of him you have a guy who proved he one time can be a game manager on a loaded team.

Three years isn't a long time. In fact, the criticism that I've seen around is that he took a short contract because he's greedy. And we didn't even take a run at him we went after a guy who historically isn't wanted. And that's fine, I guess. Lord I hope we take a first round QB.

10 million less per year, a year less, not fully guaranteed, and we're not completely stuck if it doesn't work out. Denver was never a real possibility for KC, like it or not. Even if he was we would've been paying more than Minny paid. That wasn't an option. We got the best option that we could have this offseason. Period. I wish we could've gotten Andrew Luck, but that wasn't a possibility... so....

Poet
04-08-2018, 07:20 PM
10 million less per year, a year less, not fully guaranteed, and we're not completely stuck if it doesn't work out. Denver was never a real possibility for KC, like it or not. Even if he was we would've been paying more than Minny paid. That wasn't an option. We got the best option that we could have this offseason. Period. I wish we could've gotten Andrew Luck, but that wasn't a possibility... so....

10 Million less a year for a one hit wonder who overachieved, whose cap hit is highly prohibitive, too. Let's not act like Keenum isn't hard to get rid of, because he is. So I'd rather pay more money for a much better and more consistent QB when in reality I can't get rid of either one easily.

We got an option that is deeply flawed. That's the problem - nothing actually suggests this is a good option. He will have his high points and low points, and in the end he won't be a difference maker. We'll end up with a .500 record and then sweet talk ourselves into thinking two seasons from now we'll be where it matters with him. We bought a bunch of false hope. It was a half assed plan from the start.

Cugel
04-08-2018, 10:35 PM
KC has a short contract and had a monster year with nothing around him. We have the same hope, though. I'm also just grumpy.


Case Keenum signed a 2 year, $36,000,000 contract with the Denver Broncos, including a $6,000,000 signing bonus, $25,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $18,000,000. In 2018, Keenum will earn a base salary of $8,000,000, a signing bonus of $6,000,000 and a roster bonus of $4,000,000, while carrying a cap hit of $15,000,000 and a dead cap value of $25,000,000.

Keenum in 2018 is earning: $8,000,000 base salary, signing bonus $3,000,000 , roster bonus $4,000,000 cap hit in 2018: $15,000,000.

Keenum in 2019 is earning: base salary: $18,000,000 signing bonus: $3,000,000 Cap hit in 2018: $21,000,000 dead cap hit: $10,000,000

So, they would take a $10m cap hit in 2019 to dump Keenum, yet it would cost $25m to keep him for 2019.

I'd say it's pretty clear they would keep Keenum and start him in 2019. He's making too much money to cut or sit. They would have to try and trade him, but that's a problem too. Teams would just wait for the Broncos to release him, just as teams waited for the Redskins to release Kirk Cousins. They tried to work out a trade but couldn't get anybody to offer.

Cugel
04-08-2018, 10:38 PM
Keenum is getting a 1 year audition to see if he can be the future franchise QB. If he looks mediocre or worse, he's not going to stick around, even if the Broncos haven't drafted a QB at #5.

I guess they would have to try and trade him in 2019 if they draft a first round QB.

Poet
04-08-2018, 10:38 PM
We here with Keenum now.

Simple Jaded
04-08-2018, 11:02 PM
Trade Case Keenum?

JFC, I feel like I woke up in Bizaaro World.

Poet
04-08-2018, 11:08 PM
Keenum is getting a 1 year audition to see if he can be the future franchise QB. If he looks mediocre or worse, he's not going to stick around, even if the Broncos haven't drafted a QB at #5.

I guess they would have to try and trade him in 2019 if they draft a first round QB.

It wasn't that long ago you told me that CK was here for the two years because of the cap hit. Cugel, just because you spew out every scenario at some point in time doesn't make you right. ;)

Cugel
04-08-2018, 11:20 PM
Trade Case Keenum?

JFC, I feel like I woke up in Bizaaro World.

In 2019.

If they draft a QB at #5, then they would want that guy to start in 2019. So, they wouldn't want to pay Keenum $25 to start in 2015 or pay him that kind of money to hold a clip-board.

So, they have to try and trade him and get the team that wants him to eat some of his $10m cap hit. That might be doable, if they didn't want too much in trade for him. On the other hand they might have to eat the entire $10m cap hit because they can't work a trade.

Simple Jaded
04-08-2018, 11:37 PM
Yeah, I know what you meant.

There’s one person in the entire NFL that would trade FOR Case Keenum, unfortunately he works for the Broncos and he’s not much of a salesman.

Btw, the cap hit is the same if they trade him or cut him, his agent is pretty good, apparently.

Elevation inc
04-09-2018, 07:00 AM
Nope!

Jaded, really Trevor S???? WTF.....I just puked, damn you :lol:....On the real though who knows what Case will do, but I do not and will not miss TS ever, and I mean like ever, did I mention like ever ever.....Don't make me so sad again jaded...its not nice lol

OrangeHoof
04-09-2018, 09:04 AM
Watch the Lions game, he completed 3 passes longer than 15-yards, iirc, and all 3 were safe outside the numbers/back shoulder throws.

OMG, that's TERRIBLE! He made safe throws that his receivers caught for first downs. That's like criticizing a baseball player for only hitting doubles.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-09-2018, 09:31 AM
OMG, that's TERRIBLE! He made safe throws that his receivers caught for first downs. That's like criticizing a baseball player for only hitting doubles.

I wouldn’t exactly say “doubles “, more like infield singles 😆

CoachChaz
04-09-2018, 09:32 AM
Interesting thing is most people given the choice between Keenum or Dak Prescott would choose Prescott in a second. But I have to say...I'm still waiting to see him throw a pass longer than 15 yards and complete it. Doesn't affect his efficiency due to a strong OL and running game.

Cugel
04-09-2018, 10:01 AM
I was told I was being slaughtered during the PFM and Talib signing, and all last year with TS.

In other words, I should be showed deference, you savage bully.

In short, you predicted the sun rising in the east: "Peyton signing: good, Talib signing: good, TS starting: bad!"

The problem with drafting a QB at #5: there might not be one available at that pick who is any better than a QB they could draft later in the first round, or even the 2nd.

Davii
04-09-2018, 10:01 AM
I just don't know how people can accept this level of production.

sYH1j7SzMps

I mean, come on, 302 yard, 3 TDs... unacceptable...

First highlight he avoids the rush, keeps his eyes downfield, and makes a good throw to his WR for a first down. WHY GOD?!

Second, pocket collapses immediately, he steps through it and runs for first down. THE TRAGEDY!

The he hits Thielen for about 5 which Thielen turns up and makes it 12. NO! QUIT IT!

Next few, takes the safe 5 yard throws, except one where he fits it between two defenders, but he keeps the ball moving and keeps taking what the D gives him. JUST STOP!

The rest is just more of the same, he fakes handoffs and runs the other way for TDs, completes passes for firsts downs, puts his receivers in good positions... It's just unacceptable.

He's definitely no Peyton Manning, but the guy has talent. He can play, and he's far and away better than what we've had in Denver since The Sherriff retired.

Cugel
04-09-2018, 10:02 AM
Btw, the cap hit is the same if they trade him or cut him, his agent is pretty good, apparently.

That's normal. The Broncos would absorb a $10m cap hit if they cut him in 2019, but it is possible that a team they traded him to would pay a portion of that salary.

Freyaka
04-09-2018, 10:10 AM
I think he's going to be an adequate QB until we find a franchise QB (I don't think there will be one available to us in this draft unless we get creative) but I'm going to need to see how he does in orange and blue before I say that he's a steal...I think he was the best option available and he will improve this team. How much we improve is yet to be determined.

From a personality standpoint, I love him. He's a fan like us, he's a really cool and confident dude and he's got a great nickname (Commander Keenum) but from the football side of things, it's too early to say he's a steal for us.

Cugel
04-09-2018, 10:11 AM
Interesting thing is most people given the choice between Keenum or Dak Prescott would choose Prescott in a second. But I have to say...I'm still waiting to see him throw a pass longer than 15 yards and complete it. Doesn't affect his efficiency due to a strong OL and running game.

People would have preferred Derek Carr to Keenum prior to last season, but after last year, is Carr really better? Did he have a bad year, or did he just have a good season in 2016?

Same question that people have about Keenum after last season.

Freyaka
04-09-2018, 10:16 AM
And he's proven three years in a row he's a legitimate QB. Whereas for ten less million, and two years where you can't really get rid of him you have a guy who proved he one time can be a game manager on a loaded team.

Three years isn't a long time. In fact, the criticism that I've seen around is that he took a short contract because he's greedy. And we didn't even take a run at him we went after a guy who historically isn't wanted. And that's fine, I guess. Lord I hope we take a first round QB.

I hope the right QB is there. I don't want us taking whatever is left because we need a QB. That's an instant disaster. If we take a QB at #5, it had better the guy who is going to be a long term solution. Mayfield or Rosen, if those two are gone, take a non-QB, draft Mason Rudolph later in the draft or wait until 2019 and hope for a better QB outcome.

Rick
04-09-2018, 10:20 AM
And he's proven three years in a row he's a legitimate QB. Whereas for ten less million, and two years where you can't really get rid of him you have a guy who proved he one time can be a game manager on a loaded team.

Three years isn't a long time. In fact, the criticism that I've seen around is that he took a short contract because he's greedy. And we didn't even take a run at him we went after a guy who historically isn't wanted. And that's fine, I guess. Lord I hope we take a first round QB.

I am not saying that CK isn't a risk, he certainly is.

I would say however that it is unfair to label him as greedy for taking a shorter deal. The man has been a journeyman his whole career and just had a pro bowl caliber year. He would like to get paid like any other player who put up great numbers but knows he doesn't have the body of work yet so he took a short term I will prove it then you pay me deal. There is nothing wrong with nor greedy about this.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-09-2018, 10:48 AM
I just don't know how people can accept this level of production.

sYH1j7SzMps

I mean, come on, 302 yard, 3 TDs... unacceptable...

First highlight he avoids the rush, keeps his eyes downfield, and makes a good throw to his WR for a first down. WHY GOD?!

Second, pocket collapses immediately, he steps through it and runs for first down. THE TRAGEDY!

The he hits Thielen for about 5 which Thielen turns up and makes it 12. NO! QUIT IT!

Next few, takes the safe 5 yard throws, except one where he fits it between two defenders, but he keeps the ball moving and keeps taking what the D gives him. JUST STOP!

The rest is just more of the same, he fakes handoffs and runs the other way for TDs, completes passes for firsts downs, puts his receivers in good positions... It's just unacceptable.

He's definitely no Peyton Manning, but the guy has talent. He can play, and he's far and away better than what we've had in Denver since The Sherriff retired.

Well, if they other team can’t get you out, infield singles win games just the same. 🤓

topscribe
04-09-2018, 11:55 AM
That’s an awful lot of stats and stuff, War. I went back and watched every game he played and every pass Keenum made last year after we signed him. He’s... okay. He’s Jake Plummer with a little more accuracy/decision making ability but less arm strength and real ability to run (not just scramble). He was a small ball QB who played small ball and did well. Lots (and I mean lots!) of screens and <5 yard dump offs. When he did throw downfield he often got lucky and/or bailed out by Thielen and Diggs. The big difference between Keenum last year and other QBs of his talent level is that his gambles worked. He should’ve thrown 3x the Ints that he did. We’ll get to see him first hand this season and I’d be willing to bet he’s gonna be more 2016 Keenum than 2017.
Yes, that's a lot of stats. When you have a lot off stats, all good, that says something. I have
seen a lot of Keenum, too. As I have mentioned elsewhere, the Vikings are my sister's favorite
team, so I saw a few of their games by default.

I've seen the "dink and dunk" argument. What is forgotten -- or never fully realized -- is that
this is how Peyton Manning made his living. And every QB who plays gets "bailed out" by his
receivers. When you talk about that, you're talking about every one of them. The thing is, by
nearly every statistic, Keenum was one of the best QBs in the league last year.

Here is an interesting take on him:

idDaIQsc7a4

E2GqrIpwG-g

Poet
04-09-2018, 04:49 PM
Interesting thing is most people given the choice between Keenum or Dak Prescott would choose Prescott in a second. But I have to say...I'm still waiting to see him throw a pass longer than 15 yards and complete it. Doesn't affect his efficiency due to a strong OL and running game.

Youth, more talent and upside, smaller contract. He's still developing.

BroncoJoe
04-09-2018, 05:04 PM
Youth, more talent and upside, smaller contract. He's still developing.

Stop posting.

Simple Jaded
04-09-2018, 07:00 PM
OMG, that's TERRIBLE! He made safe throws that his receivers caught for first downs. That's like criticizing a baseball player for only hitting doubles.

I personally don’t ******* care, I was the only one here defending that offense the last three seasons. Matter of fact, I remember you bitching about Kubiak’s offense from the day he was hired ... so do yourself a favor, drop this, you don’t get to defend the very thing you’ve bitched about for 3 years simply to pimp a garbage talent you’ve got a hardon for.

Btw, they weren’t short passes his receivers turned into 1st downs, it was exactly what you all have been bitching about for years ... 2 yard passes on 3rd and 4.

Go watch the ******* games, start walking your talk or get the **** out of my way.

Simple Jaded
04-09-2018, 07:11 PM
When it’s Keenum it’s smart, he’s a doubles hitter ... when it’s Kubiak he’s a dinosaur and the game passed him by.

Sell your stupid some place else.

Poet
04-09-2018, 07:53 PM
Stop posting.

Stop living.

Timmy!
04-09-2018, 07:54 PM
:pop2:

Cugel
04-09-2018, 09:13 PM
Yes, that's a lot of stats. When you have a lot off stats, all good, that says something. I have
seen a lot of Keenum, too. As I have mentioned elsewhere, the Vikings are my sister's favorite
team, so I saw a few of their games by default.

I've seen the "dink and dunk" argument. What is forgotten -- or never fully realized -- is that
this is how Peyton Manning made his living. And every QB who plays gets "bailed out" by his
receivers. When you talk about that, you're talking about every one of them. The thing is, by
nearly every statistic, Keenum was one of the best QBs in the league last year.

Here is an interesting take on him:

idDaIQsc7a4

E2GqrIpwG-g

Who is that dude? Looks like he's broadcasting from his parents' basement.

topscribe
04-09-2018, 10:37 PM
Who is that dude? Looks like he's broadcasting from his parents' basement.
Who cares? Did you listen to the message, or are you just judging from his appearance? I wrote
some pretty good articles and a book in my parents' basement . . .

Simple Jaded
04-09-2018, 11:00 PM
I threw parties in my parents basement.

7alpha30
04-09-2018, 11:11 PM
Keenum was a very sensible signing.

topscribe
04-09-2018, 11:15 PM
I threw parties in my parents basement.
Yes, I heard they 86'd you for some reason . . .

Simple Jaded
04-09-2018, 11:21 PM
Yes, I heard they 86'd you for some reason . . .

Innocent until proven guilty.

Simple Jaded
04-09-2018, 11:23 PM
Keenum was a very sensible signing.

Was it sensible trading Talibing to make Keenum possible?

7alpha30
04-09-2018, 11:34 PM
Was it sensible trading Talibing to make Keenum possible?

Valid question. Aquib Talib is 32. There were others I'd prefer to trade or release before Talib. But trading him allows us to unload his salary.

WARHORSE
04-10-2018, 12:07 AM
stop posting.


lol

Simple Jaded
04-10-2018, 12:10 AM
Valid question. Aquib Talib is 32. There were others I'd prefer to trade or release before Talib. But trading him allows us to unload his salary.

They didn’t need to unload his salary, they need Talib.

WARHORSE
04-10-2018, 12:12 AM
Valid question. Aquib Talib is 32. There were others I'd prefer to trade or release before Talib. But trading him allows us to unload his salary.



Sensible shoes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKWiKNMKhgQ&list=RDeKWiKNMKhgQ

DenBronx
04-10-2018, 12:33 AM
I thought going the cheaper route with Keenum would have allowed us to keep Talib. We wouldn't have signed a couple of other guys maybe like King and just kept Dixon. But....Talib is a top 5 db....paired with Chris Harris Jr! It was the no fly freakin zone!!

So, Roby has some huge shoes to fill.

DenBronx
04-10-2018, 12:36 AM
Team is going to look alot different next year....and we still might go 5-11. Lol

Sometimes I think I'd do a better job running this team.

7alpha30
04-10-2018, 12:39 AM
I thought going the cheaper route with Keenum would have allowed us to keep Talib. We wouldn't have signed a couple of other guys maybe like King and just kept Dixon. But....Talib is a top 5 db....paired with Chris Harris Jr! It was the no fly freakin zone!!

So, Roby has some huge shoes to fill.


I feel like the King signing was pointless and wasteful. It seems you also feel that way? I just didn't see punter as the biggest weakness or opportunity to upgrade. It makes Dixon a wasted draft pick.

7alpha30
04-10-2018, 12:48 AM
They didn’t need to unload his salary, they need Talib.

I understand your sentiment. Talib is a game changing player in the secondary. But economics come into this. How much do you feel is the proper amount of salary tied up to cornerback? It also stings that he's with Wade in LA. FWIW, if I could choose between Aqib or Wade, I'd want Wade back.

topscribe
04-10-2018, 01:13 AM
Team is going to look alot different next year....and we still might go 5-11. Lol

Sometimes I think I'd do a better job running this team.
I don't know how you can say that. The offense is already dramatically better. QB is significantly
upgraded. The O-line is far better . . . that's not speculation; it's a fact. Paradis is healthy again,
Leary is back at his natural LG, Bolles has his rookie year behind him, and Veldheer is at RT. At
TE, Butt is healthy. They do need a #3 receiver, but the draft is straight ahead.

On defense, Wolfe is healthier than he has been for years. McDonald will add to the interior pass
rush. I doubt that Gotsis is going anywhere . . . it seems a he said, she said deal. Von's still
there, and Ray is healthy again. Talib might be gone, but Ru'a Cravens and Brock are significant
additions to the secondary, and Simmons broke out last year. And King is definitely an upgrade.

But if you think you could have led the team to two Super Bowls, winning one, and won the
AFCW five years in a row, who am I to spoil your delusions? You're too nice a guy for that. :)

FanInAZ
04-10-2018, 02:06 AM
That’s an awful lot of stats and stuff, War. I went back and watched every game he played and every pass Keenum made last year after we signed him. He’s... okay. He’s Jake Plummer with a little more accuracy/decision making ability but less arm strength and real ability to run (not just scramble). He was a small ball QB who played small ball and did well. Lots (and I mean lots!) of screens and <5 yard dump offs. When he did throw downfield he often got lucky and/or bailed out by Thielen and Diggs. The big difference between Keenum last year and other QBs of his talent level is that his gambles worked. He should’ve thrown 3x the Ints that he did. We’ll get to see him first hand this season and I’d be willing to bet he’s gonna be more 2016 Keenum than 2017.

According to War, Keenum only threw 4 INTs in 8 games. Jake Plummer threw 4 INTs in 4 different games throughout his career: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PlumJa00/gamelog/

topscribe
04-10-2018, 02:53 AM
Watch the Lions game, he completed 3 passes longer than 15-yards, iirc, and all 3 were safe outside the numbers/back shoulder throws.

Dude is L I M I T E D, extremely limited.

He’s also kind of a bitch, apparently got butthurt because Zimmer wouldn’t call him “starter”. If that were Cutler this MB would lose its collective shit.
Ummm . . . you forgot to mention something. Such as the second Detroit game, as well as
the Washington, LA Rams, Atlanta, Cincinnati, and the two Chicago games. Watch the rest
of them, too, because outside of the first Detroit game that you cherry-picked, Keenum
didn't play a really bad game.

By the way, I counted 4 passes longer than 15 yards and 3 more than 10 yards in the first
Detroit game, and that was only from the highlights. Not really a bad number out of 16
completions. By the way, Keenum had a 6.78 Net Yards per Attempt in that game. That was
pretty comparable to Stafford's 6.8, wasn't it?

Finally, here's a little something to show how limited Keenum is:

IvTUUBHt4GI
.

BroncoJoe
04-10-2018, 07:06 AM
Stop living.

Now this was uncalled for.

Northman
04-10-2018, 07:57 AM
Technically it's all uncalled for but I highly doubt he was serious.

Freyaka
04-10-2018, 08:00 AM
Was it sensible trading Talibing to make Keenum possible?

That's a dumb take. Talib was getting traded regardless...

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-10-2018, 08:30 PM
Was it sensible trading Talibing to make Keenum possible?

I don’t believe the two are connected. I believe he was released so we could make room for Roby’s inflating contract, and because he shoots himself in the ass from time to time.

Poet
04-10-2018, 08:45 PM
I don’t believe the two are connected. I believe he was released so we could make room for Roby’s inflating contract, and because he shoots himself in the ass from time to time.

He could have just as easily been cut next year when we would do the Roby deal, though.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-10-2018, 08:47 PM
He could have just as easily been cut next year when we would do the Roby deal, though.

True, but how do we know he’s learned how to aim? We can’t risk another hole in the ass.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-10-2018, 08:48 PM
Someone needs to insert a Jake Butt joke.

topscribe
04-10-2018, 08:51 PM
Someone needs to insert a Jake Butt joke.
Not me. He's far younger than me and outweighs me by a good 40 lbs or so.

I'm sure he's tired of being the . . . um, butt of the joke . . .

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-10-2018, 08:52 PM
Not me. He's far younger than me and outweighs me by a good 40 lbs or so.

I'm sure he's tired of being the . . . um, butt of the joke . . .

You can bet your ass.

OrangeHoof
04-11-2018, 01:18 AM
When it’s Keenum it’s smart, he’s a doubles hitter ... when it’s Kubiak he’s a dinosaur and the game passed him by.

Sell your stupid some place else.

You're sadly mistaken. Your statement was that Keenum threw downfield for 15 yards on three occasions and they were all safe throws.

My criticism of Kubiak (based on his years in Houston, not his work with Peyton Manning who essentially ran his own offense with all those audibles) was that he would call for third-down passes that completed 2-3 yards in front of the sticks (therefore unlikely to be 15 yards downfield) and require the receiver to run the additional yards to keep the drive alive. If the receiver didn't make it, out came the kicking team.

DO YOU SEE HOW ONE IS NOT THE SAME AS THE OTHER????? On 3rd and 10, one tosses for 15 yards and the other tosses for 7. I can't put it any simpler than that.

You also seem to ignore some of the criticisms I have made of Keenum, especially that he lacks a strong NFL arm and my suspicion that Thielen and Diggs made Keenum look better last year than he probably is. Keenum is going once again to a new offense and a new system which means nobody knows if he'll flourish or not. Nobody but you, of course.

Elevation inc
04-11-2018, 03:02 AM
He could have just as easily been cut next year when we would do the Roby deal, though.

Then we wouldn't have gotten anything in return.

Poet
04-11-2018, 08:23 AM
Then we wouldn't have gotten anything in return.

I understand, but the point was in regards to when and why it happened. Also, let's be honest, there's enough smoke between Talib and VJ that there's surely fire - we didn't give up Talib for a fourth rounder. We were lucky to get a Fourth Rounder because we were going to cut him already.

Simple Jaded
04-11-2018, 11:49 PM
You're sadly mistaken. Your statement was that Keenum threw downfield for 15 yards on three occasions and they were all safe throws.

My criticism of Kubiak (based on his years in Houston, not his work with Peyton Manning who essentially ran his own offense with all those audibles) was that he would call for third-down passes that completed 2-3 yards in front of the sticks (therefore unlikely to be 15 yards downfield) and require the receiver to run the additional yards to keep the drive alive. If the receiver didn't make it, out came the kicking team.

DO YOU SEE HOW ONE IS NOT THE SAME AS THE OTHER????? On 3rd and 10, one tosses for 15 yards and the other tosses for 7. I can't put it any simpler than that.

You also seem to ignore some of the criticisms I have made of Keenum, especially that he lacks a strong NFL arm and my suspicion that Thielen and Diggs made Keenum look better last year than he probably is. Keenum is going once again to a new offense and a new system which means nobody knows if he'll flourish or not. Nobody but you, of course.

My point of that post you originally responded to was the conservative nature of that dink and dunk offense.

Go watch the games, it’s identical to Kubiak’s offense. Just go watch, if you say there’s an ounce of difference you’re either lying to yourself or a hypocrite.

I have yet to make a prediction about CK, not pretending to know if he’ll flourish, I’ve only pointed out the obvious.

Davii
04-12-2018, 12:13 AM
He could have just as easily been cut next year when we would do the Roby deal, though.

Roby's current contract went up ~7 million this year to 8.5.

Harris makes 7.4 million base salary this year. Aqib would've made 11million.

That's a lot. Take those numbers, Aqib's age, hiis off field behavior, etc... it's easy to see why he's not here.

I wish he was. I have a LOT mor faith in Aqib, but I get the business decision

DenBronx
04-12-2018, 06:32 AM
He could have just as easily been cut next year when we would do the Roby deal, though.

Roby's current contract went up ~7 million this year to 8.5.

Harris makes 7.4 million base salary this year. Aqib would've made 11million.

That's a lot. Take those numbers, Aqib's age, hiis off field behavior, etc... it's easy to see why he's not here.

I wish he was. I have a LOT mor faith in Aqib, but I get the business decision


And that's why Elway needs to be more proactive in resigning our players and not wait until it's too late. We got Harris on a bargain.

Poet
04-12-2018, 07:30 PM
The issue is this - it was still an easy cut next season. He wasn't cut because he couldn't play anymore. The rest of the reasoning is trying to justify it. And there's validity there.

Davii
04-12-2018, 07:40 PM
The issue is this - it was still an easy cut next season. He wasn't cut because he couldn't play anymore. The rest of the reasoning is trying to justify it. And there's validity there.

He was an easy trade this season. We got a pick back and saved 11 million in salary. Nobody, least of all the team, has claimed he was cut because he couldn't play anymore. He was cut because we have a rising CB in Roby that is getting paid, we have a badass CB in Harris who is getting paid, and we couldn't afford to keep him at 11 million AND have him be a bad influence as team captain.

Sucks, but it is what it is, this is a business at the end of the day and Elway felt he needed the 11 million and a draft pick more than he needed Talib no matter the reasoning behind it.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-12-2018, 08:56 PM
Having 3 cover corners doesn’t mean squat without a pass rush. We saw that last year.

Poet
04-12-2018, 11:05 PM
He was an easy trade this season. We got a pick back and saved 11 million in salary. Nobody, least of all the team, has claimed he was cut because he couldn't play anymore. He was cut because we have a rising CB in Roby that is getting paid, we have a badass CB in Harris who is getting paid, and we couldn't afford to keep him at 11 million AND have him be a bad influence as team captain.

Sucks, but it is what it is, this is a business at the end of the day and Elway felt he needed the 11 million and a draft pick more than he needed Talib no matter the reasoning behind it.

A lot of people suddenly started saying how much he fell off and how he wasn't that good anymore. That was one of the first observations that I made when he was traded.

Talib wasn't a bad influence. If anything, he kept people accountable. But he was a passionate voice on a team that felt they no longer needed that.

This isn't a fan pining away at a player being let go - this IS a business and it's bad business when you're getting rid of productive players who are leaders on the team because your coach isn't strong enough. Note that he flourished under Phillips and Belichick.

Poet
04-12-2018, 11:06 PM
Having 3 cover corners doesn’t mean squat without a pass rush. We saw that last year.

And yet the money we saved by trading him went to the QB and a tackle.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-12-2018, 11:13 PM
He was 27 when he played for B.B.

Poet
04-12-2018, 11:17 PM
He was 27 when he played for B.B.

And he's still good today. Look, if people want to hide behind this being a 'business decision' to square this away, that's fine. But this happened because of who the head coach is. Tell you what, when he makes the Pro Bowl next year I won't be the guy acting like that pass rush didn't help, because it will. But I'm also not going to be the guy who won't point out the reverse is true from last year, in which he was still a very productive player.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-13-2018, 12:05 AM
And he's still good today. Look, if people want to hide behind this being a 'business decision' to square this away, that's fine. But this happened because of who the head coach is. Tell you what, when he makes the Pro Bowl next year I won't be the guy acting like that pass rush didn't help, because it will. But I'm also not going to be the guy who won't point out the reverse is true from last year, in which he was still a very productive player.

I never said he wasn’t productive, and I never said I was glad he was gone.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 08:10 AM
The issue is this - it was still an easy cut next season. He wasn't cut because he couldn't play anymore. The rest of the reasoning is trying to justify it. And there's validity there.

When Billechick makes these moves and trades stars a year or so before they decline, he's a genius. When Elway does it, people lose their minds...

7alpha30
04-13-2018, 09:08 AM
When Billechick makes these moves and trades stars a year or so before they decline, he's a genius. When Elway does it, people lose their minds...

Unfortunately for Elway, he doesn't have Tom Brady getting paid less than half of what he's worth bailing him out. Denver has been more reliant on its defense. But you make a fair point.

Poet
04-13-2018, 09:14 AM
When Billechick makes these moves and trades stars a year or so before they decline, he's a genius. When Elway does it, people lose their minds...

Why is being critical in light of specific circumstances losing my mind?

And BB has let players go and burn his team before, too. He got killed for letting Welker go and replacing him with Amendola, who is a good player, but not Welker good, and injury prone. He got killed for letting Seymour go when the Patriots pass rush was weak, and they suffered for that one, too. The point is that this isn't a one to one comparison - they didn't get rid of Talib because of his supposed decline - and the fact that several teams were willing to trade for him is pretty telling, too.

CoachChaz
04-13-2018, 09:45 AM
And he's still good today. Look, if people want to hide behind this being a 'business decision' to square this away, that's fine. But this happened because of who the head coach is. Tell you what, when he makes the Pro Bowl next year I won't be the guy acting like that pass rush didn't help, because it will. But I'm also not going to be the guy who won't point out the reverse is true from last year, in which he was still a very productive player.

Productive...yes. But in perspective, he was the 3rd most productive CB on our team last year. He is showing signs of decline...he's 32...he was due 12 million. Regardles of any rumored riffs with the coach, it was still a wise business decision. And the money saved allowed us to get a legitimate right tackle, a safety that can actually cover TE's and a productive interior DL. All of which, even with average performances, will be more beneficial to the team in the long run.

Poet
04-13-2018, 09:56 AM
Productive...yes. But in perspective, he was the 3rd most productive CB on our team last year. He is showing signs of decline...he's 32...he was due 12 million. Regardles of any rumored riffs with the coach, it was still a wise business decision. And the money saved allowed us to get a legitimate right tackle, a safety that can actually cover TE's and a productive interior DL. All of which, even with average performances, will be more beneficial to the team in the long run.

He's going to tear it up next year, and his production will be overrated because the surrounding talent. Much like, last year, his production last year was underrated because of the surrounding talent.

The money saved let us got a RT who can be productive, but ironically has had worse health issues than Talib. We didn't have to cut Talib to get Cravens, nor the DL. Especially because there were other players who could have been cut and are less productive.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 10:01 AM
Why is being critical in light of specific circumstances losing my mind?

And BB has let players go and burn his team before, too. He got killed for letting Welker go and replacing him with Amendola, who is a good player, but not Welker good, and injury prone. He got killed for letting Seymour go when the Patriots pass rush was weak, and they suffered for that one, too. The point is that this isn't a one to one comparison - they didn't get rid of Talib because of his supposed decline - and the fact that several teams were willing to trade for him is pretty telling, too.

Why is everything about you? Ego much :D that was a general statement made while quoting you lol

Obviously, I see where you got the impression, giving you a hard time.

Davii
04-13-2018, 10:03 AM
He's going to tear it up next year, and his production will be overrated because the surrounding talent. Much like, last year, his production last year was underrated because of the surrounding talent.

The money saved let us got a RT who can be productive, but ironically has had worse health issues than Talib. We didn't have to cut Talib to get Cravens, nor the DL. Especially because there were other players who could have been cut and are less productive.

Name them. Count up their salaries, name their replacements, etc. Prove your claim.

Who should we have cut or traded to save 12 million dollars that we already had the solution behind them on the roster?

TXBRONC
04-13-2018, 10:06 AM
And he's still good today. Look, if people want to hide behind this being a 'business decision' to square this away, that's fine. But this happened because of who the head coach is. Tell you what, when he makes the Pro Bowl next year I won't be the guy acting like that pass rush didn't help, because it will. But I'm also not going to be the guy who won't point out the reverse is true from last year, in which he was still a very productive player.

No Kinger, regardless of any possible motivations being personal, it's still a business decision at the end of day. I like Talib as well and there I think his leadership on field is a hole that needs to filled. I generally don't worked up about player leaving whether it's by trade, release, or retirement because I have zero control over it.

Poet
04-13-2018, 10:10 AM
Name them. Count up their salaries, name their replacements, etc. Prove your claim.

Who should we have cut or traded to save 12 million dollars that we already had the solution behind them on the roster?

C.J Anderson and Watson. The second point of yours is only partially relevant considering that we have a draft upcoming. However, it's also a fair point but considering that the team has reportedly wanted Booker to be the starter, that's a start.

Anderson and Watson clear 10 million and change.

https://247sports.com/nfl/denver-broncos/Bolt/Broncos-likely-to-move-on-from-Menelik-Watson-in-offseason-110159845

https://www.milehighreport.com/2018/2/14/17013456/cj-anderson-cut-trade-broncos

Poet
04-13-2018, 10:12 AM
No Kinger, regardless of any possible motivations being personal, it's still a business decision at the end of day. I like Talib as well and there I think his leadership on field is a hole that needs to filled. I generally don't worked up about player leaving whether it's by trade, release, or retirement because I have zero control over it.

We have seen NFL teams make decisions that were bad business choices, too.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 10:14 AM
C.J Anderson and Watson. The second point of yours is only partially relevant considering that we have a draft upcoming. However, it's also a fair point but considering that the team has reportedly wanted Booker to be the starter, that's a start.

Anderson and Watson clear 10 million and change.

https://247sports.com/nfl/denver-broncos/Bolt/Broncos-likely-to-move-on-from-Menelik-Watson-in-offseason-110159845

https://www.milehighreport.com/2018/2/14/17013456/cj-anderson-cut-trade-broncos

Watson was injured and couldn't be cut... That's the only reason he's still here and we're stuck with him currently.

Cj will be traded in draft day, you can bank on it. Even if we don't sign anyone with the cap space we have left after that, the cap savings can be rolled to next year and is still a benefit to a cap hungry team next year .

No matter how you slice it, we still come out ahead.

Poet
04-13-2018, 10:16 AM
They will cut that ass later.

We don't disagree on a lot of that, but we still vehemently disagree - and it's not just about coming out ahead, but coming out ahead as much as possible. It'll be what it'll be.

Davii
04-13-2018, 10:21 AM
C.J Anderson and Watson. The second point of yours is only partially relevant considering that we have a draft upcoming. However, it's also a fair point but considering that the team has reportedly wanted Booker to be the starter, that's a start.

Anderson and Watson clear 10 million and change.

https://247sports.com/nfl/denver-broncos/Bolt/Broncos-likely-to-move-on-from-Menelik-Watson-in-offseason-110159845

https://www.milehighreport.com/2018/2/14/17013456/cj-anderson-cut-trade-broncos

The plan was already to cut Watson, so I don't think you should be able to use that, but I'll allow it...

Keep going, there's another 2 million you have to find, and what's the succession plan for Menelik? Do we have an answer on hand already as we did with Roby?

Davii
04-13-2018, 10:22 AM
They will cut that ass later.

We don't disagree on a lot of that, but we still vehemently disagree - and it's not just about coming out ahead, but coming out ahead as much as possible. It'll be what it'll be.

Talib was one of my favorite players, loved him, hate that he's gone. However, younger players are coming up and are ready. You don't cut a Roby to keep a Talib and you can't wrap up that type of money in your CBs or you are shorting something else.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 10:23 AM
They will cut that ass later.

We don't disagree on a lot of that, but we still vehemently disagree - and it's not just about coming out ahead, but coming out ahead as much as possible. It'll be what it'll be.

Two things, we save more cutting him now as we can roll his savings from this year over if unused. We get a draft pick this year, we would not get a pick next year especially if he fell off statistically which is a real possibility at his age.

We ARE coming out as far ahead as possible.

TXBRONC
04-13-2018, 10:24 AM
We have seen NFL teams make decisions that were bad business choices, too.

Well yes, but we won't know until we see what happens on the field.

Poet
04-13-2018, 10:25 AM
I get your point - if someone is an obvious cut than any scenario could use him. I think, though, that because the rosters and the players to be cut are so finite, they all bleed together, too. Especially since we would then quibble on 'well we cut Watson, and then this cut makes more sense over that one for this line of roster construction'. :salute:

https://scout.com/nfl/denver-broncos/ContentGallery/Denver-Broncos-Offseason-Plan-Of-Attack-Free-Agency-Draft-116068908

Garcia saves 1.9 million, and with the floating change from the last post, that's your money.

Poet
04-13-2018, 10:28 AM
Two things, we save more cutting him now as we can roll his savings from this year over if unused. We get a draft pick this year, we would not get a pick next year especially if he fell off statistically which is a real possibility at his age.

We ARE coming out as far ahead as possible.

No, we're not, because we're getting rid one of one 'declining older player' for another one at tackle.

We also rolled the savings from Ward last offseason, and were left down a leader, down a field general, etc. Maybe's that is now becoming a bit of a pattern?

I would rather have a good corner with leadership skills over a fourth round draft pick, and that's especially true with the Talib VJ rift. Which I think is a bigger part of the equation.

Davii
04-13-2018, 10:40 AM
I get your point - if someone is an obvious cut than any scenario could use him. I think, though, that because the rosters and the players to be cut are so finite, they all bleed together, too. Especially since we would then quibble on 'well we cut Watson, and then this cut makes more sense over that one for this line of roster construction'. :salute:

https://scout.com/nfl/denver-broncos/ContentGallery/Denver-Broncos-Offseason-Plan-Of-Attack-Free-Agency-Draft-116068908

Garcia saves 1.9 million, and with the floating change from the last post, that's your money.

You still haven't replaced them yet... The team feels Roby is ready to replace Talib as a starter, so where are the replacements that the team feels are ready for Menelik and Garcia? We didn't draft to fill in for Talib, the guy the team felt was ready was already on the roster. That's an important distinction.

Poet
04-13-2018, 10:45 AM
You still haven't replaced them yet... The team feels Roby is ready to replace Talib as a starter, so where are the replacements that the team feels are ready for Menelik and Garcia? We didn't draft to fill in for Talib, the guy the team felt was ready was already on the roster. That's an important distinction.

Davii, there's a draft. Booker is the heir apparent. There are offensive lineman on the bench. You're asking me to do something that I can't do because the draft isn't here, nor has the rest of FA been structured to do what I would do. Furthermore, under this example, we still have the same money saved to make the deal for the tackle.

So, between Booker, the tackle from 'Zona, and the bench depth on the OL, plus the draft, what am I missing?

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 10:48 AM
King, I get where you are coming from. You are wrong IMO, but I get it.

It's easy to look at things from nostalgia of what was, but you can't make your decisions off that. You have to look at risk vs reward. You can't say "no we signed a tackle" we'd have done that anyway, someone else would have been cut to do it, but we'd have done it anyway. Just like we'd have cut Talib anyway due to age, conflict with coaches, ect..., ect..., ect...

The risk here is that Talib is going to have a great year, that's possible, but he could also drastically decline this year (that's more likely) Do you hold onto him another year off the 50/50 (or really, more like 40/60) chance he's still his old self? Or do you get what you can and start looking to find his replacement?

I love Talib I do, I loved champ too, making choices off nostalgia cost us a shot at a superbowl. Had we done the same thing we did with Talib this year with Champ, there is a really good chance we don't lose to Baltimore. Everyone wants to remember the blown play by the safety who will not be named, but no one remembers the fact that Champ was getting burnt like toast all game. The only reason they were in that game was champs aging body breaking down.

If Talib goes on and has a career year with talent surrounding him, yea, it'll sting, but this was the right move. You get what you can get now because I promise you, age is going to catch up with him. If not this year next and he's already causing issues with the coaching staff last year, leaving him in there to sew discontent isn't the recipe for success.

Davii
04-13-2018, 10:54 AM
Davii, there's a draft. Booker is the heir apparent. There are offensive lineman on the bench. You're asking me to do something that I can't do because the draft isn't here, nor has the rest of FA been structured to do what I would do. Furthermore, under this example, we still have the same money saved to make the deal for the tackle.

So, between Booker, the tackle from 'Zona, and the bench depth on the OL, plus the draft, what am I missing?

Talib ---> Roby

Notice, John cut him because he felt he had his replacement on the roster and could save ~12 million dollars.

CJ ---> Booker (Good! He's on the roster, John can see that)
Menelik ---> ???? (to be equal to Talib's cutting we need the replacement from within)
Garcia ---> ???? (to be equal to Talib's cutting we need the replacement from within)

Point being, we saved 12 million dollars and had a replacement ready, sitting right there on our roster, that we've seen grow up and the coaches feel can replace Talib's production. That's not something you're able to provide in any other scenario. If you can find me a business decision on our roster that will save 12 million dollars and replace that same decision with players our team feels are comparable, and that are on the roster, then I'll agree that cutting Talib was the dumbest thing Elway has ever done.

Poet
04-13-2018, 11:00 AM
And we got those guys on the roster from the draft. We saved twelve million dollars, with and could have made the same moves had we kept Talib. In regards to replacing production - Watson's production is horrific, amongst the worst in the league, and we used the money to replace that production from another team. That replacement wasn't on the roster. Booker is on the roster. The OL depth is on the roster.

We can agree to disagree - I don't think either of us finds the argumentation from the other to be persuasive.

Davii
04-13-2018, 11:05 AM
And we got those guys on the roster from the draft. We saved twelve million dollars, with and could have made the same moves had we kept Talib. In regards to replacing production - Watson's production is horrific, amongst the worst in the league, and we used the money to replace that production from another team. That replacement wasn't on the roster. Booker is on the roster. The OL depth is on the roster.

We can agree to disagree - I don't think either of us finds the argumentation from the other to be persuasive.

Talib was replaced with a person CURRENTLY on our roster that our coaches have seen for years and are confident he has the skills needed. You don't get to point to a hypothetical and say we can replace him there as that's not what was done to replace Talib. If you can't do it, you can't do it, but don't claim John could've done this or that when those things aren't equivalent to what was done. It wasn't just that we saved 12 million, if Roby wasn't on the roster and his salary wasn't going up 7 million we wouldn't have cut Talib.

Poet
04-13-2018, 11:14 AM
Talib was replaced by someone on the roster. In my example that same thing occurs - Anderson is replaced by Booker, and McGovern can take Garcia's job, assuming Garcia would have that job. The only one that would be a replacement from the roster is the tackle from 'Zona, but you can't really hold that against me because that replacement for Watson occurred away from the roster anyway.

I can point to a hypothetical as an alternative because that's the entire point - there are in my opinions better routes to do essentially the same thing and keep Talib.

I'm going off of what we CAN and COULD have done in this offseason.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 11:18 AM
And we got those guys on the roster from the draft. We saved twelve million dollars, with and could have made the same moves had we kept Talib. In regards to replacing production - Watson's production is horrific, amongst the worst in the league, and we used the money to replace that production from another team. That replacement wasn't on the roster. Booker is on the roster. The OL depth is on the roster.

We can agree to disagree - I don't think either of us finds the argumentation from the other to be persuasive.

The people we have on our roster are known quantities, we don't know who will be on our board when our pick is in, we don't know if they will live up to their pick position.

It is more responsible fiscally to cut the player with a known replacement, than to bank on an unknown quantity.

CoachChaz
04-13-2018, 11:21 AM
Sounds like someone needs to buy some new Bengals shirts. A declining Talib...a player at a position of strength...is traded and his salary is used to acquire players at positions of weakness. It is beyond me how something so simple isn't understood.

I have plenty of expensive oranges and not enough apples or bananas. So, I'll trade some oranges and get some apples and bananas with the extra money. Simple.

Poet
04-13-2018, 11:22 AM
The people we have on our roster are known quantities, we don't know who will be on our board when our pick is in, we don't know if they will live up to their pick position.

It is more responsible fiscally to cut the player with a known replacement, than to bank on an unknown quantity.

Every team builds through the draft. If going into the draft needing to fill one or two positions where you already have answers and combination answers on the roster is unsettling, then I'm sorry. It's really not.

And again, the criticism made against my argument isn't effective: the solution to the Garcia cut is on the roster; the solution to the Watson replacement would be the same one Elway made, which works, or through the draft, where there are tackles which is just a bonus solution if the first one, which DID happen is so unsatisfactory; and Booker is on the roster.

The question Davii posed was asked, and it was answered sufficiently.

Poet
04-13-2018, 11:24 AM
Sounds like someone needs to buy some new Bengals shirts. A declining Talib...a player at a position of strength...is traded and his salary is used to acquire players at positions of weakness. It is beyond me how something so simple isn't understood.

I have plenty of expensive oranges and not enough apples or bananas. So, I'll trade some oranges and get some apples and bananas with the extra money. Simple.

Why?

A declining Talib is still a player of worth and great merit to the roster.

I understand the argument. It's quite pompous to think that I don't because I disagree, especially since we could have kept Talib and come out relatively the same. And when you point out, for instance, that Talib is old and declining, one of the players we got with that money is the tackle, who is old, declining, and coming off of injuries.

OrangeHoof
04-13-2018, 11:30 AM
Sucks, but it is what it is, this is a business at the end of the day and Elway felt he needed the 11 million and a draft pick more than he needed Talib no matter the reasoning behind it.

Either you accept the norming influences of the draft and the salary cap or you hope for a league where the richest teams continue to buy the best players and 60% of the league has no chance every year of winning a championship.

Collective bargaining and the salary cap means that, as players roll off their rookie contracts, they are going to get paid well if they're worth keeping. It also means some contracts will become unaffordable. Trading Talib was a business decision. I expect the Broncos will use a second-day pick on a CB for both depth and as a hedge for when Harris and Roby become like Talib.

CoachChaz
04-13-2018, 11:32 AM
Why?

A declining Talib is still a player of worth and great merit to the roster.

I understand the argument. It's quite pompous to think that I don't because I disagree, especially since we could have kept Talib and come out relatively the same. And when you point out, for instance, that Talib is old and declining, one of the players we got with that money is the tackle, who is old, declining, and coming off of injuries.

Veldheer is 30 and playing a position that can play at a high level into their mid-thirties. And I don't know where you got the declining part because he is about the same as he's always been.

Talib is at an age where DB's tend to retire. If he only cost 4 or 5 million, then I'd buy into your argument of his value as a leader and 3rd CB. But at 12 million...that goes out the window. Kirk Cousins is a good example. He wanted 30 million and only had 2 suitors. If he only cost 22 million, he'd have had 10 teams calling him. But the biggest difference overall is that Talib's replacement played better than him last year. The guy Veldheer is replacing did not.

Poet
04-13-2018, 11:35 AM
Veldheer is 30 years old, and reviews of his play are mixed, and he's had an injury history.

Talib is 32, has still played well, and his old DC really wanted him. That last part is pretty indicative. At 12 million a year he's actually underpaid for his production. The point that I've made, is that there were ways to keep Talib and still allow us wind up with Veld. And considering that the CK signing indicates that Elway didn't want a rebuild, Talib's value was still pretty high to Denver.

CoachChaz
04-13-2018, 11:45 AM
Veldheer is 30 years old, and reviews of his play are mixed, and he's had an injury history.

Talib is 32, has still played well, and his old DC really wanted him. That last part is pretty indicative. At 12 million a year he's actually underpaid for his production. The point that I've made, is that there were ways to keep Talib and still allow us wind up with Veld. And considering that the CK signing indicates that Elway didn't want a rebuild, Talib's value was still pretty high to Denver.

I guess it's one opinion against another, but I'll still maintain that improving the OL, improving the DL and adding a player that can cover TE's has a much higher value than a 3rd corner.

Poet
04-13-2018, 11:51 AM
I guess it's one opinion against another, but I'll still maintain that improving the OL, improving the DL and adding a player that can cover TE's has a much higher value than a 3rd corner.

We could have gotten Veldheer and kept Talib, is the point. And the Cravens cap hit isn't big enough be a determinate. This all started when Davii asked for another viable path.

CoachChaz
04-13-2018, 12:04 PM
We could have gotten Veldheer and kept Talib, is the point. And the Cravens cap hit isn't big enough be a determinate. This all started when Davii asked for another viable path.

We currently have about 10 million available in cap space. How was Talib's 12 million fitting in? Yeah, we can throw out the notion of cutting CJ and Watson, but even at this moment, those aren't available or smart options just yet. Maybe come draft day if we can get a RB we like or maybe once Watson recovers...but not now.

Again...smart business decisions is the key phrase.

Poet
04-13-2018, 12:07 PM
We currently have about 10 million available in cap space. How was Talib's 12 million fitting in? Yeah, we can throw out the notion of cutting CJ and Watson, but even at this moment, those aren't available or smart options just yet. Maybe come draft day if we can get a RB we like or maybe once Watson recovers...but not now.

Again...smart business decisions is the key phrase.

Well, we could talk about overpaying a one year wonder as opposed to drafting a QB and not being a half-baked team. That might be a start - and go the route other teams with good defenses have with young QB's.

CoachChaz
04-13-2018, 12:17 PM
Well, we could talk about overpaying a one year wonder as opposed to drafting a QB and not being a half-baked team. That might be a start - and go the route other teams with good defenses have with young QB's.

Well...if we didn't pay Keenum, we'd have had to overpay a 3rd rate QB to hold down the fort...or start a rookie QB. All of that assuming the QB that we want is available at pick #5 and that he proved worthy of starting in year 1.

Poet
04-13-2018, 12:19 PM
Well...if we didn't pay Keenum, we'd have had to overpay a 3rd rate QB to hold down the fort...or start a rookie QB. All of that assuming the QB that we want is available at pick #5 and that he proved worthy of starting in year 1.

If we didn't pay Keenum we would have kept TS who would have been the starter if we benched the kid, and recent history tells us going up and getting the QB you like is worth it. Again, people right now act like Wentz and Goff were can't miss prospects, but there were plenty of people who weren't sold on them. That's the point - go get the actual QB and build the franchise the right way, not this half baked mess.

CoachChaz
04-13-2018, 12:21 PM
If we didn't pay Keenum we would have kept TS who would have been the starter if we benched the kid, and recent history tells us going up and getting the QB you like is worth it. Again, people right now act like Wentz and Goff were can't miss prospects, but there were plenty of people who weren't sold on them. That's the point - go get the actual QB and build the franchise the right way, not this half baked mess.

So, instead of getting a QB for the short term that can move a ball, we could have stuck with Siemian. I'm out on this thread as well.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 12:22 PM
King, you are arguing this all wrong. I get your points, I do, but none of that addresses the most important fact in this situation. Talib butted heads with VJ. We keep him, he's going to continue to butt heads and be a locker room situation all year.

Yes, the ideal solution would be can VJ, but that's not possible. Elway made the wrong hire, he should have hired Shannahan and we'd be in vastly different situation right now (hell, Shanny may have even managed to make TS look like a viable QB...) But he didn't, Elway is backed into a corner now. He can't fire VJ without feeding to the reputation this team has already gotten as being a career killer for coaches. To avoid that stigma, he has to give VJ at least another half season with better talent and coaching staff.

So since you can't fire VJ, Talib has to go. Talib is a leader in that locker room, zero doubts about that, if he is discontent and spreads that discontent around, VJ is doomed from the start (he's probably doomed anyway, but you have to if you are Elway give him the best possible chance to succeed) So if you leave Talib in there, VJ has already lost the locker room.

Talib was doomed with this team because of his clashing with VJ. Him being old, costing a lot of money and having a viable replacement on the team combined with his locker room issues basically make it a no brainer despite the fact that we all love the guy to death. He provided Elway with his own noose man, you can get made at Elway for putting the noose on him, but Talib put himself in that position by acting the way he did last year regarding VJ.


Bottom line, even if we didn't need the cash, Talib was ALWAYS getting cut or traded. You can be upset about it happening, but it was always going to happen and it makes logical sense.

Poet
04-13-2018, 12:23 PM
So, instead of getting a QB for the short term that can move a ball, we could have stuck with Siemian. I'm out on this thread as well.

No, I hated TS more than anything. I'm saying TS would have been the backup, and the guy we went after in THIS draft would be the starter. If they wanted to keep that kid on the bench, they would have kept TS around to be a starter for another year - not sure why that's so offensive considering the fact that neither CK or TS is any good, and aren't franchise saviors.

Poet
04-13-2018, 12:26 PM
King, you are arguing this all wrong. I get your points, I do, but none of that addresses the most important fact in this situation. Talib butted heads with VJ. We keep him, he's going to continue to butt heads and be a locker room situation all year.

Yes, the ideal solution would be can VJ, but that's not possible. Elway made the wrong hire, he should have hired Shannahan and we'd be in vastly different situation right now (hell, Shanny may have even managed to make TS look like a viable QB...) But he didn't, Elway is backed into a corner now. He can't fire VJ without feeding to the reputation this team has already gotten as being a career killer for coaches. To avoid that stigma, he has to give VJ at least another half season with better talent and coaching staff.

So since you can't fire VJ, Talib has to go. Talib is a leader in that locker room, zero doubts about that, if he is discontent and spreads that discontent around, VJ is doomed from the start (he's probably doomed anyway, but you have to if you are Elway give him the best possible chance to succeed) So if you leave Talib in there, VJ has already lost the locker room.

Talib was doomed with this team because of his clashing with VJ. Him being old, costing a lot of money and having a viable replacement on the team combined with his locker room issues basically make it a no brainer despite the fact that we all love the guy to death. He provided Elway with his own noose man, you can get made at Elway for putting the noose on him, but Talib put himself in that position by acting the way he did last year regarding VJ.

This is my point - we're keeping a weakly skilled coach who can't hack it and can't control a locker room. Also, I've been told in these threads that this wasn't about their issues, but good business moves.

The solution would still be to keep the good corner, still go the route that nets you the tackle we're so enthralled with (mild sarcasm), go get the QBoTF, spend the rest of the picks on the line and shoring up the defense, and go the same avenue as teams in the past. Keeping Talib doesn't make sense unless you have this weird roster construction where you're halfway rebuilding and halfway trying to compete...with the shell of a roster that just went 5-11.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 12:29 PM
No, I hated TS more than anything. I'm saying TS would have been the backup, and the guy we went after in THIS draft would be the starter. If they wanted to keep that kid on the bench, they would have kept TS around to be a starter for another year - not sure why that's so offensive considering the fact that neither CK or TS is any good, and aren't franchise saviors.

CK is twice the QB that TS is...If we were going to keep TS, we were winning 5 games or less next year and Elway was getting fired. Period... CK isn't an all pro QB. He's an average, to slightly better than average QB. If we had a great line, he and TS would be dead even most likely. We don't have a good line so CK is by far the better QB because CK has proven throughout his career (not just last year) that he's good at avoiding pressure and extending plays. If you go back and look at his time with the Texans you can see that there as well.

End of the day, we may not have a viable option at QB. IMO Mayfield and Rosen are the only options, neither may be available by our pick, you can say "but, but, but.... we can trade up) for us to be able to trade up, the teams that one those QB's have to be willing to pass on them, if they aren't you can't just wish something into existence here man... and you can't just take whatever QB is left for giggles because you need a QB... Because then you are basically ending up with subpar leftovers and trying to pass them off as the answer to the problem.

If the right QB is there at #5, absolutely, go for it. But chances are we're going to be stuck with an option of drafting whatever is left, grabbing an impact player that is not a QB or trading back.

This isn't madden, you can't force the CPU to accept the trade on your terms.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 12:30 PM
This is my point - we're keeping a weakly skilled coach who can't hack it and can't control a locker room. Also, I've been told in these threads that this wasn't about their issues, but good business moves.

The solution would still be to keep the good corner, still go the route that nets you the tackle we're so enthralled with (mild sarcasm), go get the QBoTF, spend the rest of the picks on the line and shoring up the defense, and go the same avenue as teams in the past. Keeping Talib doesn't make sense unless you have this weird roster construction where you're halfway rebuilding and halfway trying to compete...with the shell of a roster that just went 5-11.

Keeping him was never an option. Being upset about that will never change that bud. You are pissing in the wind here.

I think this discussing is going no where with all of us rehashing the same thing, we too are basically pissing in the wind to no avail.


I've said my peace on it so

#Deuces

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 12:32 PM
12004

Poet
04-13-2018, 12:33 PM
Is he? Or is he a guy whose been a subpar player and talent his whole career and had a good, not great, season in a great situation last year? Keeping TS was in response to if we were going to draft a QB and then wanted to bench that draftee, because you know, who would the veteran QB be? The preference I would have is to just start the QB and let him develop, because we saw how well benching Lynch went. CK hasn't proven anything in his entire career, either, because his entire career is being a one year wonder, a bench rider, and a guy who didn't do well when he could some starting time in Houston.

I'm not wishing anything into existence - the irony is that I say that in response to a board who only started believing and wanting CK the day we signed him (not a dig at you). Trades have happened all the time at the front end of the draft under the new rookie contract system.

"This isn't Madden," yeah, please don't act like what I'm suggesting is anything Madden like.

Nomad
04-13-2018, 12:35 PM
Is he? Or is he a guy whose been a subpar player and talent his whole career and had a good, not great, season in a great situation last year? Keeping TS was in response to if we were going to draft a QB and then wanted to bench that draftee, because you know, who would the veteran QB be? The preference I would have is to just start the QB and let him develop, because we saw how well benching Lynch went. CK hasn't proven anything in his entire career, either, because his entire career is being a one year wonder, a bench rider, and a guy who didn't do well when he could some starting time in Houston.

I'm not wishing anything into existence - the irony is that I say that in response to a board who only started believing and wanting CK the day we signed him (not a dig at you). Trades have happened all the time at the front end of the draft under the new rookie contract system.

"This isn't Madden," yeah, please don't act like what I'm suggesting is anything Madden like.

Grown men play Madden? My sons don't even play that anymore. I think all video games suck. #antivideogame

Poet
04-13-2018, 12:36 PM
Grown men play Madden? My sons don't even play that anymore. I think all video games suck. #antivideogame

I don't play Madden, but I think it's still a very popular game. Video games are fine.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 12:37 PM
Is he? Or is he a guy whose been a subpar player and talent his whole career and had a good, not great, season in a great situation last year? Keeping TS was in response to if we were going to draft a QB and then wanted to bench that draftee, because you know, who would the veteran QB be? The preference I would have is to just start the QB and let him develop, because we saw how well benching Lynch went. CK hasn't proven anything in his entire career, either, because his entire career is being a one year wonder, a bench rider, and a guy who didn't do well when he could some starting time in Houston.

I'm not wishing anything into existence - the irony is that I say that in response to a board who only started believing and wanting CK the day we signed him (not a dig at you). Trades have happened all the time at the front end of the draft under the new rookie contract system.

"This isn't Madden," yeah, please don't act like what I'm suggesting is anything Madden like.

I didn't want CK, I'd still take a better option if it comes along. I didn't just suddenly start assuming he's Tom Brady died and risen again as our QB. But he's the option we have right now. And until he's actually stepped foot on the field and either A. Proven his detractors here right or B. proven them wrong. I'm taking a stance of waiting and seeing what happens before I start saying oh praise jebus we've found our answer or OH NOES!! We're doomed.

If a better option comes along, absolutely I'll jump on that bandwagon, but right now, he had a career year last year, until he proves that he can or cannot duplicate that same performance in Denver, why jump to a conclusion one way or another? Wait till preseason and see what happens. No matter what he's better than the abysmal asshat of a trainwreck that I so foolishly hitched my horse to last year.

Nomad
04-13-2018, 12:39 PM
I don't play Madden, but I think it's still a very popular game. Video games are fine.

I've never been into video games. At one point, my sons were playing so much and ignoring their chores, I threw their XBOX outside. #getoffmylawn

Poet
04-13-2018, 12:41 PM
I didn't want CK, I'd still take a better option if it comes along. I didn't just suddenly start assuming he's Tom Brady died and risen again as our QB. But he's the option we have right now. And until he's actually stepped foot on the field and either A. Proven his detractors here right or B. proven them wrong. I'm taking a stance of waiting and seeing what happens before I start saying oh praise jebus we've found our answer or OH NOES!! We're doomed.

If a better option comes along, absolutely I'll jump on that bandwagon, but right now, he had a career year last year, until he proves that he can or cannot duplicate that same performance in Denver, why jump to a conclusion one way or another? Wait till preseason and see what happens. No matter what he's better than the abysmal asshat of a trainwreck that I so foolishly hitched my horse to last year.

It's not about whether or not he's our current option - it's about what we could have, or should have done. That's the fun part of being a fan second only to the games. Following the team closely and not just accepting what the team does and looking on the bright side (again, not a dig). I hate optimism for the sake of optimism. And I hate accepting something that makes SOME sense and not looking deeper. That's boring.

I'm not jumping to a conclusion, either - I'm forming a critique based on his past career and all the other factors. Because, ya know, that's the point of a message board.

Poet
04-13-2018, 12:41 PM
I've never been into video games. At one point, my sons were playing so much and ignoring their chores, I threw their XBOX outside. #getoffmylawn

They should do their chores.

Nomad
04-13-2018, 12:42 PM
They should do their chores.

Now, they are for Uncle Sam.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 12:42 PM
I don't play Madden, but I think it's still a very popular game. Video games are fine.

As to my point regarding madden. Everyone is like "Why don't we trade up" it's not that simple. The teams ahead of us have to be reasonable. You can't destroy your future to find your QB of now. If the right trade comes along at a reasonable price, absolutely, trade up and take the QB you want. But it's not always as easy as trading up, there are a lot of factors involved.

I'm not saying you think it's madden, but some think it's as easy as wanting to trade up and Boom, we've traded up for a reasonable cost...

Poet
04-13-2018, 12:44 PM
As to my point regarding madden. Everyone is like "Why don't we trade up" it's not that simple. The teams ahead of us have to be reasonable. You can't destroy your future to find your QB of now. If the right trade comes along at a reasonable price, absolutely, trade up and take the QB you want. But it's not always as easy as trading up, there are a lot of factors involved.

I'm not saying you think it's madden, but some think it's as easy as wanting to trade up and Boom, we've traded up for a reasonable cost...

I agree and I think a half-baked rebuild and contention plan, which is what we have now, is doing that. I also think that just going into a proper rebuild is the best bet. I also think that if we wanted to actually try to contend we had better options. I also know that people blew up the Eagles and the Rams for trading heavily for their guys. Didn't the Texans trade up? Do you think those teams regret that now? Should they?

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 12:49 PM
It's not about whether or not he's our current option - it's about what we could have, or should have done. That's the fun part of being a fan second only to the games. Following the team closely and not just accepting what the team does and looking on the bright side (again, not a dig). I hate optimism for the sake of optimism. And I hate accepting something that makes SOME sense and not looking deeper. That's boring.

I'm not jumping to a conclusion, either - I'm forming a critique based on his past career and all the other factors. Because, ya know, that's the point of a message board.

What "could we have done" overpay another QB that frankly after the fact seems to be a self-conceited drama queen? Cousins wasn't a good solution, we actually dodged a bullet there and had we not dodged a bullet, we'd have still had to have cut Talib anyway (along with several other depth players that we can keep as depth now)

The draft option still MAY be an option, we won't know that for another couple weeks, but if the cards don't fall our way, we may not get our guy in the draft and may have to see other options, in that situation yea, case is still the option we have RIGHT now. There wasn't a lot of other options.

Much of my anger the day we signed CK was because I thought we should have gone with Fitzpatrick and drafted a rookie. My biggest issue as a human being is that I knee jerk really bad. I let my initial reaction and emotions get the best of me and I make really stupid takes. Then I sit back and I think about it and analyze it and make up my mind a few days after the fact. This leads to some of you considering me wishy washy, but really, I am bad at evaluating situations as they happen. Instead of posting immediately, I would be better served to give myself a little time to process what has happened so that I don't do dumb things like that.

Right now, CK was the better option than Fitz, because Fitz doesn't have a lot of gas left in the tank. If we don't find a QB in this draft (and it's absolutely possible we don't, QB's could go 1, 2, 3, 4 and we may not get the one we want) then CK provides us what I view as a serviceable QB (assuming he lives up to his performance last year) until we can find a long term solution. On top of that, CK is still young enough that if his performance last year was growth as a QB, rather than simply right place right time, he can stick around a couple of years.

People want instant gratification. Finding a QB is almost never instant... we are going to miss more than we hit. Even if we draft a QB this year, we may NEVER find a QB that is a franchise QB. That doesn't mean stop trying, but you've gotta have some insurance, CK is insurance in case things go south on us in the draft.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 12:56 PM
I agree and I think a half-baked rebuild and contention plan, which is what we have now, is doing that. I also think that just going into a proper rebuild is the best bet. I also think that if we wanted to actually try to contend we had better options. I also know that people blew up the Eagles and the Rams for trading heavily for their guys. Didn't the Texans trade up? Do you think those teams regret that now? Should they?

How many teams find franchise QB's? Look at the Browns, they've been trying most of my life to find one.... You can say "ya, but that's the browns" well... hate to break it to you, we are kinda the browns when it comes to judging talent. We have always had better luck throughout our history of trading for or signing FA QBs. We have never in our lifetime won with a drafted QB.

You may not like the direction we've taken and I get that, I can see why it's not appealing, but there may not be a winning option here. This team may not draft the right QB, even if we do draft the right QB, we don't have a strong history recent or otherwise of developing QBs.

We may be in for rough ride no matter what man. But if CK can duplicate 2017, he does provide us with an option that will let us win games. Fact of the matter is, we go through 1-2 more losing seasons, Elway's getting fired...That's my gut feeling, I think that's Elway's gut too. CK is Elway's job insurance. I have a whole lot of faith in Elway's ability to rebuild, but we are rebuilding.

This stopped being win now and win later when Manning retired despite what Elway says. CK buys Elway more time to find the right guy if none of the guys available to us in 2018 are the right guys.

I would add to your point about the Eagles, Rams and Texans. It's great that they worked out. But again, we don't have a strong history of getting the right guy. If we trade up and sacrifice a lot of future draft stock to do so and that QB is a complete bust. Again, Elway's toast...and maybe that is what needs to happen no matter what, but again, I still have faith in Elway's ability, I just don't think it's going to be as instant as some of us assume. Finding a QB rarely is.

When was the last time the Rams, Eagles or Texans had a QB worth cheering for? They had to go through a lot of trial and error too.

BroncoJoe
04-13-2018, 01:02 PM
Jesus. These last few pages gave me a headache.

King, you'll make a fine attorney. You talk a lot, point to a bunch of "stuff", but don't make a lot of sense.

Nomad
04-13-2018, 01:08 PM
Jesus. These last few pages gave me a headache.

King, you'll make a fine attorney. You talk a lot, point to a bunch of "stuff", but don't make a lot of sense.

And the lack of respect for Coach.

The misery it must be to be a Bengals fan to have to troll a Broncos board.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 01:10 PM
Jesus. These last few pages gave me a headache.

King, you'll make a fine attorney. You talk a lot, point to a bunch of "stuff", but don't make a lot of sense.

I've enjoyed the conversation personally now that we've moved past the headache of talking Talib, but then again, I talk a lot too. Not Cugel or Joel a lot, but I do talk a lot.

topscribe
04-13-2018, 01:22 PM
Jesus. These last few pages gave me a headache.

King, you'll make a fine attorney. You talk a lot, point to a bunch of "stuff", but don't make a lot of sense.
When he gets it into his head he's right, that's it. There's no turning back. And he doesn't always
need a lot of facts to reach that state of mind. However, he and I have had a lot of conversations
in the past outside of this board, some very deep, and I assure you he's a pretty good guy.

topscribe
04-13-2018, 01:23 PM
I've enjoyed the conversation personally now that we've moved past the headache of talking Talib, but then again, I talk a lot too. Not Cugel or Joel a lot, but I do talk a lot.
There's not a lot of fluff with you. You make your point and get it over with. I like that.

Poet
04-13-2018, 01:30 PM
Jesus. These last few pages gave me a headache.

King, you'll make a fine attorney. You talk a lot, point to a bunch of "stuff", but don't make a lot of sense.

I really do not find it to be enjoyable when you take digs like that. And I find it especially rude when you tell me I don't make a lot of sense when I make valid points and expound upon them. I do make sense, Joe. I make a lot of sense. But, at this point, I am a little frustrated with the repetition as you and I have had this conversation many times before. I wish you'd take the hint.

Poet
04-13-2018, 01:31 PM
When he gets it into his head he's right, that's it. There's no turning back. And he doesn't always
need a lot of facts to reach that state of mind. However, he and I have had a lot of conversations
in the past outside of this board, some very deep, and I assure you he's a pretty good guy.

This is inaccurate and also disrespectful.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 01:33 PM
I really do not find it to be enjoyable when you take digs like that. And I find it especially rude when you tell me I don't make a lot of sense when I make valid points and expound upon them. I do make sense, Joe. I make a lot of sense. But, at this point, I am a little frustrated with the repetition as you and I have had this conversation many times before. I wish you'd take the hint.

Joe's a crochety old man. He doesn't have time for words, especially if those words reach too large of a size. If you speak briefly to him, he will mostly ignore you. If you get too lengthy with it you'll get a "Get off my lawn you damn kids" from him...

This is your "get off my lawn" warning. It's nothing personal I don't think, he's just too old to for this shit. He's basically this boards detective Murtaugh. Only not funny or black...

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 01:35 PM
This is inaccurate and also disrespectful.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Bdws8eJtJMziE/giphy.gif

BroncoJoe
04-13-2018, 01:36 PM
I really do not find it to be enjoyable when you take digs like that. And I find it especially rude when you tell me I don't make a lot of sense when I make valid points and expound upon them. I do make sense, Joe. I make a lot of sense. But, at this point, I am a little frustrated with the repetition as you and I have had this conversation many times before. I wish you'd take the hint.

I hope you become a really good defense attorney. You have a unique ability to take situational facts and statistics and create a story.

You're the next Johnnie Cochran!

Poet
04-13-2018, 01:38 PM
That's just another backhanded compliment. But, considering the class of this place, I guess I'll take it.

BroncoJoe
04-13-2018, 01:38 PM
Joe's a crochety old man. He doesn't have time for words, especially if those words reach too large of a size. If you speak briefly to him, he will mostly ignore you. If you get too lengthy with it you'll get a "Get off my lawn you damn kids" from him...

This is your "get off my lawn" warning. It's nothing personal I don't think, he's just too old to for this shit. He's basically this boards detective Murtaugh. Only not funny or black...

I'm sorry, but who are you again?

Excessive verbiage is not necessary when you have a point.

Nomad
04-13-2018, 01:39 PM
I wonder what King looks like in a suit & tie.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 01:40 PM
I'm sorry, but who are you again?

Excessive verbiage is not necessary when you have a point.

Let me know when you have one and we can compare notes.

BroncoJoe
04-13-2018, 01:40 PM
I wonder what King looks like in a suit & tie.

He's quite the handsome fellow.

BroncoJoe
04-13-2018, 01:41 PM
Let me know when you have one and we can compare notes.

I don't believe you'd have the intellect to compare notes.

Thanks, though.

Don't you have some flip-flopping to get to?

Poet
04-13-2018, 01:42 PM
I think studying for finals has made me cranky. Good day to all of you.

Nomad
04-13-2018, 01:42 PM
I don't believe you'd have the intellect to compare notes.

Thanks, though.

Don't you have some flip-flopping to get to?

Ouch!

Nomad
04-13-2018, 01:43 PM
I think studying for finals has made me cranky. Good day to all of you.

We're proud of you, Kinger. You know it.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 01:44 PM
I don't believe you'd have the intellect to compare notes.

Thanks, though.

Don't you have some flip-flopping to get to?

The problem with getting old is your strength declines, as an example, that was a weak ass comeback.

topscribe
04-13-2018, 02:01 PM
This is inaccurate and also disrespectful.
Sorry. I just couldn't get Keenum out of my mind . . .

Nomad
04-13-2018, 02:07 PM
Maybe Kinger's new avi will be a photo of him in his suit & tie looking all professional law guy.

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 02:09 PM
Sorry. I just couldn't get Keenum out of my mind . . .

Is this really the time or place to discuss your personal fantasies top? (sorry, couldn't resist lol)

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 02:39 PM
Maybe Kinger's new avi will be a photo of him in his suit & tie looking all professional law guy.

I'm still convinced that Kinger is secretly Barney Stinson...

Poet
04-13-2018, 02:41 PM
For the record, I like all of you. You just sometimes stress me out. And make me mad.

topscribe
04-13-2018, 02:55 PM
For the record, I like all of you. You just sometimes stress me out. And make me mad.
Most of the time they're just trolling you because they do. Lighten up. They troll me, too. And each other. And anyone else they can troll. :D

BroncoJoe
04-13-2018, 02:59 PM
Uh, Al - you might want to edit that last post... It's a bit early to be drinking, isn't it?

Wait. What am I saying? It's never too early to be drinking!!

Freyaka
04-13-2018, 03:00 PM
For the record, I like all of you. You just sometimes stress me out. And make me mad.

It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye, or king his patience.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
04-13-2018, 03:33 PM
Uh, Al - you might want to edit that last post... It's a bit early to be drinking, isn't it?

Wait. What am I saying? It's never too early to be drinking!!

Oops a daisy!!

I decided to get back to work instead of replying

Simple Jaded
04-13-2018, 11:52 PM
I don't believe you'd have the intellect to compare notes.

Thanks, though.

Don't you have some flip-flopping to get to?
Lolololololololol

Simple Jaded
04-13-2018, 11:57 PM
Grown men play Madden? My sons don't even play that anymore. I think all video games suck. #antivideogame

I played Madden until I got married, age has nothing to do with it.

Simple Jaded
04-14-2018, 12:03 AM
As to my point regarding madden. Everyone is like "Why don't we trade up" it's not that simple. The teams ahead of us have to be reasonable. You can't destroy your future to find your QB of now. If the right trade comes along at a reasonable price, absolutely, trade up and take the QB you want. But it's not always as easy as trading up, there are a lot of factors involved.

I'm not saying you think it's madden, but some think it's as easy as wanting to trade up and Boom, we've traded up for a reasonable cost...

This is absolutely not true, you need a QB you better go get one and the people that have what you need don’t have to be what you deem as reasonable.

There’s supply and demand, crazy lil thang we call Capitalism.

If all you care about is getting back/forth to work get the Prius, you wanna win something you’re gonna have to put a little more effort into it.

Simple Jaded
04-14-2018, 12:11 AM
Veldheer is 30 and playing a position that can play at a high level into their mid-thirties. And I don't know where you got the declining part because he is about the same as he's always been.

Talib is at an age where DB's tend to retire. If he only cost 4 or 5 million, then I'd buy into your argument of his value as a leader and 3rd CB. But at 12 million...that goes out the window. Kirk Cousins is a good example. He wanted 30 million and only had 2 suitors. If he only cost 22 million, he'd have had 10 teams calling him. But the biggest difference overall is that Talib's replacement played better than him last year. The guy Veldheer is replacing did not.

Veldheer is so “pretty much the same as he’s always been” that the same regime that brought him in got rid of him for next to nothing.

Btw, how old was Clady when his play fell off the face of the Earth? Veldheer is also playing a position where that can happen.

Simple Jaded
04-14-2018, 12:14 AM
I guess it's one opinion against another, but I'll still maintain that improving the OL, improving the DL and adding a player that can cover TE's has a much higher value than a 3rd corner.

Talib wasn’t the 3rd CB, though.

Good luck finding a source that says Talib was declining but Veldheer “was pretty much the same as he’s always been”.

CrazyHorse
04-14-2018, 12:17 AM
Keenum had one good year on a stacked Vikings team. He completely disappeared in the playoffs too. Kirk Cousins has been the most statistically consistent QB over the past 3 season on a mediocre Redskins team. I may be wrong but I get the feeling Cousins has a career year with the Vikings and possible MVP consideration while Keenum has a step back from last year.

topscribe
04-14-2018, 02:06 AM
Keenum had one good year on a stacked Vikings team. He completely disappeared in the playoffs too. Kirk Cousins has been the most statistically consistent QB over the past 3 season on a mediocre Redskins team. I may be wrong but I get the feeling Cousins has a career year with the Vikings and possible MVP consideration while Keenum has a step back from last year.
Well, that's not entirely true that Keenum disappeared in the playoffs. In fact, in the NO game, he
passed for 318 yards, completing 62.5%. Guess how Brees did: 294 yards at 62.5%. They both
had 2 INTs. Now, it's true Brees passed for 3 TDs, as opposed to Keenum's 1, but that's because
Minnesota opted to run for TDs. But Keenum did quite well in that game.

Nor did Keenum really disappear in the NFC championship game. He did pass for 271 yards.
I watched that game, and there were many more factors to it than just Keenum. I'm not trying
to excuse him; he didn't play an especially good game. But then, Philly's defense had something
to say about that.

The Vikings had talent, no doubt. But when you say "stacked," do you mean the skill positions?
They had a couple good receivers in Thielen and Diggs. But then, most other teams have two
good receivers. He had a good TE. But how much did Keenum have to do with that?

Minnesota had a relatively mediocre running game last year after Dalvin Cook was injured.
Cook's 4,8 Y/A fell to 3.9 for Latavius Murray, and the Vikings finished the season ranked 23rd
in Y/A. And that ranking represents figures that were padded by Dalvin Cook's performances
before he was injured in the fourth game. So Keenum didn't have quite the offensive supporting
cast you seem to think he did.

Regarding your allusion to "one good year," that is not entirely accurate, either. In Keenum's
first year actually on the field (2nd year in the league) he acquitted himself pretty well in the
eight games he started. He didn't set the world on fire, but first year (on the field) QBs seldom
do. But playing on a pitiful Houston team, he did manage 1,760 yards in those 8 games and
passed for more TDs (9) than he did INTs (6).

2014 was a train wreck for him but not of his doing. After two games with Houston, he went to
the Rams where he sat for the rest of the year. But the next year, 2015, he was put onto the
field for six games. Starting with all of 12 games under his belt, he completed 60.8% and passed
for 828 yards and 4 TDs and 1 INT. That's not many TDs, of course, but that does represent a
4:1 TD/INT ratio. Very good. But his 87.7 passer rating wasn't bad for no more experience than
he had.

2016 was his first meaningful season, with 10 games, and he once again found himself playing for
a really bad Los Angeles Rams (4-12) team. He had no help from a running game that ranked 31st
in the league in Y/A. Keenum wasn't great, but he wasn't terrible with receivers whose names
would make you ask, "Who?"

So his past isn't as putrid as some who have not studied his history would make you think. As for
2017, Keenum had more than a good year. He ranked #1 in the league, according to DVOA (https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb), and
#2 in the league in QBR (http://www.vikings.com/news/lunch-break/article-1/Lunchbreak-Keenum-Had-ESPNs-2nd-Highest-Total-QBR-in-2017/030346f3-ec4b-4d9a-9b3f-555ce00bc3ca). He did that by completing 67.6% of his passes for 3,547 yards (in 14
games, which would average out to 4,054 yards over 16 games), 22 TDS and 7 INTs (3:1 ratio).
And he quarterbacked the team to a 12-4 record (11-3 in regular season) and played in the
championship game. Oh yes, he was also best in the league under pressure (http://www.espn.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/25242/virtual-reality-played-a-role-in-transforming-case-keenums-game).

So, while you mention Cousins looked more consistent over three years, he did play for one team
all that time. It was a mediocre team, as you said, but the Rams team Keenum played for was
just horrendous. (And quarterback-killer Jeff Fisher was the HC.)

Your feeling that Keenum will regress may or may not bear out. But the thing is, it hasn't happened
for him yet. He has improved every year. If his track record indicates anything, it would be further
improvement. And Keenum is a working fool who studies the game like Peyton Manning did. (I'm
not comparing him to Peyton in any other way, so please nobody jump on that.)

As you can see, I have studied Keenum's history. (Oh, BTW, he broke all kinds of passing records
and received all kinds of awards in college (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Keenum).) From what I see, I have the expectation that he will be
even better this year than he was in 2017. Maybe I'm wrong. I could be. But I don't think so at this
point.
.

7alpha30
04-14-2018, 07:21 AM
Keenum had one good year on a stacked Vikings team. He completely disappeared in the playoffs too. Kirk Cousins has been the most statistically consistent QB over the past 3 season on a mediocre Redskins team. I may be wrong but I get the feeling Cousins has a career year with the Vikings and possible MVP consideration while Keenum has a step back from last year.

The success of the Cousins signing is dependent on getting to the SB, which is one step past where they went with Keenum. If Denver makes it to the playoffs or are even more competitive with Keenum, it's a successful signing. The bar is much higher for Cousins.

Cugel
04-14-2018, 10:49 AM
Talib wasn’t the 3rd CB, though.

Good luck finding a source that says Talib was declining but Veldheer “was pretty much the same as he’s always been”.

Oh, for God's sake, they didn't get rid of Talib because he was declining, but because they wanted to dump his $12m. This was something they were planning for years.

Talib was a high priced FA. In order to save money the team wants to draft a rookie CB, especially in the first round where you get that 5th year option. Then develop that player, and replace the high priced FA with an equal talent who is under that cheap rookie deal, or perhaps we lock him up a year early so he never hits FA (Chris Harris) and we get him at a discount (Derek Wolfe).

Once Bradley Roby played great last year starting for Talib, it was game over. Roby's contract goes up to $8.5m this year, from $1m, and they want to lock him up long-term at a reasonable price so they won't be bidding for his services in FA in a couple of year and have to pay him $15m a year.

So, Talib became a cap casualty. They could afford him but they preferred to spend the money in other directions, mainly Case Keenum. Siemian only earned about $1m last year, and Keenum is being paid $15m this year. So, that extra $14m had to come from somewhere.

They saved $11m getting rid of Talib.

Cugel
04-14-2018, 10:54 AM
The success of the Cousins signing is dependent on getting to the SB, which is one step past where they went with Keenum. If Denver makes it to the playoffs or are even more competitive with Keenum, it's a successful signing. The bar is much higher for Cousins.

I should think so! $10,000,000 a year higher! :coffee:

The Broncos are paying Keenum $15m this year, and $25m next year if they keep him (and $10m if they cut him), while the Vikings are paying Cousins $28m a year.

Rather a big difference! You would expect a vast difference in performance for that kind of money! So, Cousins better be an All-Pro, while Keenum would only have to be average to justify his salary because he's getting basically average money, not extreme ground-shaking money like Cousins.

topscribe
04-14-2018, 11:04 AM
The success of the Cousins signing is dependent on getting to the SB, which is one step past where they went with Keenum. If Denver makes it to the playoffs or are even more competitive with Keenum, it's a successful signing. The bar is much higher for Cousins.
The bar is much higher for Cousins, but is Cousins higher? Last year's records between the two say no.

SmilinAssasSin27
04-14-2018, 11:09 AM
I'm on board with CK. Jury is obviously still out, but I have never viewed him as a BAD QB. He is a gamer who was pretty damn effective given the tools around him. I'm OK with giving him the keys and taking another year to assess PL and CK. Who knows? Maybe CK will continue to improve and we do have our guy.

Oh...and drafting Mike White in the mid rounds.

Northman
04-14-2018, 11:28 AM
I played Madden until I got married, age has nothing to do with it.

I still play Madden and other video games on occasion. Its a nice way to get down time from work all week and when the wife is doing her own things. I hear the same thing when it comes to heavy metal music, as if that is only garnered for young people. Never understood that mindset personally. Anyone can have a different type of hobby and most people i know even with children still play video games whether its for their own downtime or with their own children. Other people are into cars or crafting.

Northman
04-14-2018, 11:29 AM
Keenum had one good year on a stacked Vikings team. He completely disappeared in the playoffs too. Kirk Cousins has been the most statistically consistent QB over the past 3 season on a mediocre Redskins team. I may be wrong but I get the feeling Cousins has a career year with the Vikings and possible MVP consideration while Keenum has a step back from last year.

Ive been saying this for weeks. :lol:

SmilinAssasSin27
04-14-2018, 11:29 AM
I play the College Football game over the winter months.

Nomad
04-14-2018, 11:31 AM
I played Madden until I got married, age has nothing to do with it.

Did I trigger you? :D I was giving King a hard time. He's my pal.

Simple Jaded
04-14-2018, 05:21 PM
Oh, for God's sake, they didn't get rid of Talib because he was declining, but because they wanted to dump his $12m. This was something they were planning for years.

Talib was a high priced FA. In order to save money the team wants to draft a rookie CB, especially in the first round where you get that 5th year option. Then develop that player, and replace the high priced FA with an equal talent who is under that cheap rookie deal, or perhaps we lock him up a year early so he never hits FA (Chris Harris) and we get him at a discount (Derek Wolfe).

Once Bradley Roby played great last year starting for Talib, it was game over. Roby's contract goes up to $8.5m this year, from $1m, and they want to lock him up long-term at a reasonable price so they won't be bidding for his services in FA in a couple of year and have to pay him $15m a year.

So, Talib became a cap casualty. They could afford him but they preferred to spend the money in other directions, mainly Case Keenum. Siemian only earned about $1m last year, and Keenum is being paid $15m this year. So, that extra $14m had to come from somewhere.

They saved $11m getting rid of Talib.

Didn’t read, don’t care.

Simple Jaded
04-14-2018, 11:46 PM
“I don’t think anyone views Case Keenum as that long term solution”— Daniel Jeremiah

Apparently DJ has never heard of Gary Kubiak ... or Top ... or Cugel.

topscribe
04-14-2018, 11:51 PM
“I don’t think anyone views Case Keenum as that long term solution”— Daniel Jeremiah

Apparently DJ has never heard of Gary Kubiak ... or Top ... or Cugel.
Kubiak likely has never heard of Daniel Jeremiah, either. At least, not where he cares. Jeremiah
is a sports writer who makes wild guesses ("If the Broncos fail to land Kirk Cousins, they could
opt for a full rebuild"). Kubiak is a Super Bowl winning former Head Coach. Kubiak played
quarterback. Far as I know, Jeremiah hasn't ever been on the sidelines to an NFL game. At least,
not to where anyone cares.


So was that supposed to be some kind of rebuttal to my post? :lol:

slim
04-15-2018, 12:51 AM
Daniel Jeremiah lol

Northman
04-15-2018, 06:41 AM
Keenum is the greatest evah!

Poet
04-15-2018, 08:20 AM
Keenum is the greatest evah!

:shocked:

BroncoJoe
04-15-2018, 08:26 AM
I'm no great evaluater of NFL talent, so I don't know if Keenum is going to fail or be great.

I do hope he turns out to be an excellent signing - if for nothing else than to prove a few people here wrong.

Northman
04-15-2018, 08:58 AM
I'm no great evaluater of NFL talent, so I don't know if Keenum is going to fail or be great.

I do hope he turns out to be an excellent signing - if for nothing else than to prove a few people here wrong.

I agree, you are a terrible evaluator.:)

Poet
04-15-2018, 09:04 AM
I'm no great evaluater of NFL talent, so I don't know if Keenum is going to fail or be great.

I do hope he turns out to be an excellent signing - if for nothing else than to prove a few people here wrong.

I hope that he becomes the greatest QB of all time because then we'd probably be winning multiple SB's and enjoy years of the good life.

But, I don't believe in him, and I'm am argumentative grumpy douchebag so we here now, Joe!

We here now!

BroncoJoe
04-15-2018, 09:51 AM
I agree, you are a terrible evaluator.:)

Now wait just a minute here. NFLN replayed our 2013 game against the Cowboys yesterday, and I thought "Damn. This Manning guy is pretty good."

So, there's that.

Poet
04-15-2018, 09:51 AM
Now wait just a minute here. NFLN replayed our 2013 game against the Cowboys yesterday, and I thought "Damn. This Manning guy is pretty good."

So, there's that.

Sly devil!

Nomad
04-15-2018, 12:21 PM
I'm no great evaluater of NFL talent, so I don't know if Keenum is going to fail or be great.

I do hope he turns out to be an excellent signing - if for nothing else than to prove a few people here wrong.

I sure hope no one is wanting Keenum to fail just to prove themselves right.

Northman
04-15-2018, 12:25 PM
I sure hope no one is wanting Keenum to fail just to prove themselves right.

Nope, dont want him to fail but dont think he will repeat what he did in Minny last year. He's not as good as people are pretending he is but im always up for him to try and prove me wrong.

OrangeHoof
04-15-2018, 12:41 PM
The best thing that could happen to Keenum would be for Barkley to fall to us and let Elway take him. That would give Keenum somebody else in the backfield for defenses to be wary of. A strong receiving option at TE and a couple of good blockers couldn't hurt either.

topscribe
04-15-2018, 12:42 PM
Nope, dont want him to fail but dont think he will repeat what he did in Minny last year. He's not as good as people are pretending he is but im always up for him to try and prove me wrong.
I agree that he has to prove himself this next year. Every QB has to prove himself every year he
plays . . . all players do, in fact.

But I challenge you to go back to the 750-word post I made a page or two back, or any post I've
made about Keenum, and tell me what part of it smacked of pretense. I laid out his history and
documented how he has improved every year. Now, will that curve continue to ascend, level off,
or start to go down now? We'll know this next year. But it's after studying him, watching him,
getting to know him, as it were, that I was able to muster any confidence in him.

So it is my opinion that Keenum will be as good or better than he was last year because his track
record hasn't shown any different. But, as I said, we'll see . . .

Northman
04-15-2018, 01:00 PM
I agree that he has to prove himself this next year. Every QB has to prove himself every year he
plays . . . all players do, in fact.

But I challenge you to go back to the 750-word post I made a page or two back, or any post I've
made about Keenum, and tell me what part of it smacked of pretense. I laid out his history and
documented how he has improved every year. Now, will that curve continue to ascend, level off,
or start to go down now? We'll know this next year. But it's after studying him, watching him,
getting to know him, as it were, that I was able to muster any confidence in him.

So it is my opinion that Keenum will be as good or better than he was last year because his track
record hasn't shown any different. But, as I said, we'll see . . .

And we just have to agree to disagree. You see what he has done and made the assumption he will play well, i have not seen that from him personally. I see his success more a part of the surrounding talent than i do of him by himself. Some QB's you can tell how much of it is them and how much of it is the support around him. Do guys like Elway, Brady, Marino, and so on set the bar high being able to make those around them better? Absolutely. But never the less those are the bench marks of what a franchise QB should be and i have yet to see that from Keenum because he will not always have that kind of talent around him. The question will be how does he perform when he has to pick up the slack. Right now im not convinced he can elevate his game enough when the rest isnt there.

topscribe
04-15-2018, 01:18 PM
And we just have to agree to disagree. You see what he has done and made the assumption he will play well, i have not seen that from him personally. I see his success more a part of the surrounding talent than i do of him by himself. Some QB's you can tell how much of it is them and how much of it is the support around him. Do guys like Elway, Brady, Marino, and so on set the bar high being able to make those around them better? Absolutely. But never the less those are the bench marks of what a franchise QB should be and i have yet to see that from Keenum because he will not always have that kind of talent around him. The question will be how does he perform when he has to pick up the slack. Right now im not convinced he can elevate his game enough when the rest isnt there.
Your mistake is that you have not read what I have written . . . either that, or you did not comprehend
it well. If you disagree, you're disagreeing with all the facts, not my opinion. I suggest you go back
read my post more carefully, especially the part about "all that talent" around him.

I'm not going to try any more on this issue with you guys. I laid out considerable documentation and
facts, and you detractors have come back with nothing but to say the facts are wrong.

I. Have. Said. Time. And. Again. that my opinion is that he will do well, but I. Have. Also. Said. That.
I. May. Be. Wrong. Very few of you have added that qualification despite you have no facts on your
side.

Poet
04-15-2018, 01:22 PM
Top, people comprehend what you write, and there are plenty of facts that suggest the less optimistic route of CK. For instance, it's a fact that the team he only did well with got rid of him. It's a fact his own coach wasn't sure that CK could consistently play well. It's a fact his completion percentage was largely due to scheme. It's a fact that he washed out of every other team he ever played for. It's a fact he was bad in the playoffs. It's a fact that the Vikings WR's are listed amongst the best corp in the league. It's a fact he's had one good season in his entire career.

This isn't a scenario where all of the facts actually point to one thing, and that's what you seem to be presenting.

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04-15-2018, 01:29 PM
Top, people comprehend what you write, and there are plenty of facts that suggest the less optimistic route of CK. For instance, it's a fact that the team he only did well with got rid of him. It's a fact his own coach wasn't sure that CK could consistently play well. It's a fact his completion percentage was largely due to scheme. It's a fact that he washed out of every other team he ever played for. It's a fact he was bad in the playoffs. It's a fact that the Vikings WR's are listed amongst the best corp in the league. It's a fact he's had one good season in his entire career.

This isn't a scenario where all of the facts actually point to one thing, and that's what you seem to be presenting.
Case in point. You came back with nothing but speculation and hypothesis and treated it as facts.
I laid out nothing but facts. He was #1 DVOA. #2 QBR. 67.6% comp. 3:1 TD/INT. 98.3 passer
rating. #1 in the league under pressure, despite being pressured 35% of the time (aslo #1).
And you come back with his having two receivers. Most teams have two good receivers. The
Broncos have two of the best. You gloss over their bad O-line and mediocre running game. You
don't want to post any facts because you have none. Just laugh at the guy who does.

Northman
04-15-2018, 01:37 PM
Jesus christ Topper, im ok with you thinking that Case is great or will do well. I stated that in my last post but please dont be a pompous ass just because i dont share your optimism. You are not the be all end all to this debate my friend.

Poet
04-15-2018, 01:38 PM
Case in point. You came back with nothing but speculation and hypothesis and treated it as facts.
I laid out nothing but facts. He was #1 DVOA. #2 QBR. 67.6% comp. 3:1 TD/INT. 98.3 passer
rating. #1 in the league under pressure, despite being pressured 35% of the time (aslo #1).
And you come back with his having two receivers. Most teams have two good receivers. The
Broncos have two of the best. You gloss over their bad O-line and mediocre running game. You
don't want to post any facts because you have none. Just laugh at the guy who does.

Wrong.

CK has had one season of merit - and you'd know that if you looked up his career. Ergo, that one season, being a Viking, ended with them letting him walk and they did not try to keep him. That's a fact. That happened.

If you followed the Vikings closer, you might have learned that Zimmer did speculate about how good CK could be consistently.

If you followed the Vikings, you would have known that they did run a mostly conservative offense.

If you followed his career, you would have known that he's bounced around from multiple teams. He's on his fourth team.

If you watched the playoffs, you would have seen how bad he was, in both games. And his stat lines in both games show you that. It's a fact that he was bailed out by Diggs, too.

Just because you want to ignore things that are detrimental to your argument, you didn't know or weren't aware that they existed does not mean they aren't facts.

So go ahead and act like posting the stat line for one year (outlier) is some substantial statistical evidence for a career that points the otherwise. Dumping a statline isn't some intellectual wizardry. And go ahead and deny that the other side has facts that you don't like dealing with.

I've given him credit for dealing well with pressure, because he does have some athletic ability. And I don't have issue with his performance last year - just as a solution to turning the franchise around.

We won't have this conversation again.

Northman
04-15-2018, 01:42 PM
And for the record, the Vikings last year were #1 in defense,

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2017&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-n=1

#8 in Oline protection,

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2017&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go


and had the 7th ranked rushing attack last year,

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=RUSHING&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2017&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go

Those links there are what we like to call facts since you like to hang so tightly to them.

Northman
04-15-2018, 02:10 PM
Look, at the end of the day i hope Keenum works out and it would be nice not to have to search for a franchise Qb anymore. So if he can drag the same Broncos team from last year to the AFC Championship game than maybe i will change my view on him. But if the Broncos end up doing what they did in 15' with Keenum just managing not to screw up than i will remain unconvinced that he is the long term answer for us. But to try and claim that Keenum was the larger part of the reason for the Viking success last year is disingenuous at best. The Vikings did have a great defense, they did have a top 10 rushing attack and their oline was far and away better than anything Denver had last year. Keenum played well enough with the opportunity he had but you cant just sugarcoat the rest of the facts that existed on that team to try and change the narrative. I have zero problem with people thinking he will succeed in Denver, but there are a few of us who arent ready to crown him champion just yet and that should be ok too.

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04-15-2018, 02:24 PM
And for the record, the Vikings last year were #1 in defense,

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=OPP&season=2017&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-n=1

#8 in Oline protection,

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2017&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go


and had the 7th ranked rushing attack last year,

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=RUSHING&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2017&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=false&Submit=Go

Those links there are what we like to call facts since you like to hang so tightly to them.
For the record, I said they had a strong defense. Boy, that sure helped Keenum to complete passes.

The ranking you gave involves actual sacks. Minnesota was actually #6 in fewest sacks allowed.
That shows only part of the picture. Keenum was sacked 22 times, which represented 13.3% of the
actual pressures. So he was pressured 165 times and sacked 22 times. While under pressure, he
had the #1 QBR in the league (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-tom-brady-and-case-keenum-do-better-than-anyone-else/) at 58.5. As a yardstick, Tom Brady was #2 at 54.0.

Regarding rushing, Dalvin Cook helped those stats, having played the first four games of the
season before he was injured for the rest of the year. He averaged 4.8 Y/A. After his exit, those
stats dropped to 3.9 Y/A. If you compare, the majority of teams had a better Y/A than that. Their
total yards were up there, but if you check, so were the attempts.

So, you see, the story goes deeper than you apparently would like to consider. Moreover, after
cherry-picking these stats, you have failed to answer allllll the other stats. There really is no
answer to #1 DVOA, #2 QBR, #1 QBR under pressure, is there? Or is there? Do you have one?

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04-15-2018, 02:26 PM
Look, at the end of the day i hope Keenum works out and it would be nice not to have to search for a franchise Qb anymore. So if he can drag the same Broncos team from last year to the AFC Championship game than maybe i will change my view on him. But if the Broncos end up doing what they did in 15' with Keenum just managing not to screw up than i will remain unconvinced that he is the long term answer for us. But to try and claim that Keenum was the larger part of the reason for the Viking success last year is disingenuous at best. The Vikings did have a great defense, they did have a top 10 rushing attack and their oline was far and away better than anything Denver had last year. Keenum played well enough with the opportunity he had but you cant just sugarcoat the rest of the facts that existed on that team to try and change the narrative. I have zero problem with people thinking he will succeed in Denver, but there are a few of us who arent ready to crown him champion just yet and that should be ok too.
And I'm not ready to crown him champion, either, and said as much more than once. That you
apparently think I did goes back to your seemingly not reading my posts carefully enough.

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04-15-2018, 02:36 PM
Jesus christ Topper, im ok with you thinking that Case is great or will do well. I stated that in my last post but please dont be a pompous ass just because i dont share your optimism. You are not the be all end all to this debate my friend.
First of all, please do not abuse my Savior's Name when addressing me personally. TIA.

Second, your resorting to personal innuendo shows you don't have an answer. If you cannot
rebut my debate, then just go silent or concede. But I don't see where I was being pompous.
I you could elaborate, specifically show where I was, I would appreciate it. That is an honest
request. I'm constantly trying to work on my character, and would like to know.

Nomad
04-15-2018, 02:43 PM
Nope, dont want him to fail but dont think he will repeat what he did in Minny last year. He's not as good as people are pretending he is but im always up for him to try and prove me wrong.

I really have no opinion on Keenum. I'm more of a wait & see how he does, and hopefully the coaches can play to his strengths.

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04-15-2018, 02:44 PM
Wrong.

CK has had one season of merit - and you'd know that if you looked up his career. Ergo, that one season, being a Viking, ended with them letting him walk and they did not try to keep him. That's a fact. That happened.

If you followed the Vikings closer, you might have learned that Zimmer did speculate about how good CK could be consistently.

If you followed the Vikings, you would have known that they did run a mostly conservative offense.

If you followed his career, you would have known that he's bounced around from multiple teams. He's on his fourth team.

If you watched the playoffs, you would have seen how bad he was, in both games. And his stat lines in both games show you that. It's a fact that he was bailed out by Diggs, too.

Just because you want to ignore things that are detrimental to your argument, you didn't know or weren't aware that they existed does not mean they aren't facts.

So go ahead and act like posting the stat line for one year (outlier) is some substantial statistical evidence for a career that points the otherwise. Dumping a statline isn't some intellectual wizardry. And go ahead and deny that the other side has facts that you don't like dealing with.

I've given him credit for dealing well with pressure, because he does have some athletic ability. And I don't have issue with his performance last year - just as a solution to turning the franchise around.

We won't have this conversation again.
Well, it's best not to have this conversation again. I'm getting tired of waiting for some
documentation from your side.

But to your allusion that I haven't followed the Vikings closely, I refer to the 750-word post
(actually an article) I submitted a couple pages back. I provided Keenum's entire history
in the NFL. Plus the fact that I have seen several of their games, which are several more than
most of you guys have seen.

Regarding Zimmer . . . for every Zimmer, there is a Kubiak. Have you considered him?

But before I ignore things things detrimental to my argument, I need to see what they are.
I haven't seen any yet. I won't deny that you have them. Just let me see them. Hypotheses
and assumptions are not facts. Let's see them.

Northman
04-15-2018, 02:48 PM
I'm constantly trying to work on my character,

You might need more self reflection because something tells me no matter what i tell you it wont matter. Lol

Northman
04-15-2018, 02:49 PM
I really have no opinion on Keenum. I'm more of a wait & see how he does, and hopefully the coaches can play to his strengths.

And thats fine, i have opinions because i watch many games and players outside of the Broncos every year. But i agree if Keenum is Orton 2.0 than hopefully Denver can build a solid team around him to have some success.

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04-15-2018, 02:50 PM
You might need more self reflection because something tells me no matter what i tell you it wont matter. Lol
Meaning you don't have an answer. And you just questioned my honesty. Thank you.
But please do not ridicule me and then call me "friend."

I guess I should not debate on this board. Too many thin skins. *shrugs*

Nomad
04-15-2018, 02:51 PM
And thats fine, i have opinions because i watch many games and players outside of the Broncos every year. But i agree if Keenum is Orton 2.0 than hopefully Denver can build a solid team around him to have some success.

You are a redzoneaholic. :D

Northman
04-15-2018, 02:51 PM
Meaning you don't have an answer. And you just questioned my honesty. Thank you.

I have an answer but you answered exactly the way i thought you would. Building on your character would mean actually being accountable for your own behavior. Are you even willing to do that or more deflection on your part?

Poet
04-15-2018, 02:52 PM
You might need more self reflection because something tells me no matter what i tell you it wont matter. Lol

I sure hope the QB class next year and the year after is stout.

Nomad
04-15-2018, 02:53 PM
I sure hope the QB class next year and the year after is stout.

MO likes Jake Browning.

Northman
04-15-2018, 02:54 PM
[QUOTE=topscribe;2741179
But please do not ridicule me and then call me "friend."[/QUOTE]

Actually if i wasnt your friend i would simply ignore you and tell you to piss off. A friend at least tries to find some middle ground in the conversation which you seem unwilling to do. But, i will leave you alone but please quit replying to my posts than if you do not like my opinions or viewpoints if you dont mind.

Poet
04-15-2018, 02:55 PM
MO likes Jake Browning.

The Case for Keenum (to non-homers) suggests that we're going to need a new QB pretty soon.

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04-15-2018, 02:59 PM
I have an answer but you answered exactly the way i thought you would. Building on your character would mean actually being accountable for your own behavior. Are you even willing to do that or more deflection on your part?
I just asked where you saw that I was being pompous. Regarding my own reflection on my
character, my M.S. in Health Psychology and Bible study take care of that just fine. That is
why I very sincerely asked you to specifically point out where I was being "pompous."

But yes, when you cannot back up your character assassinations, I will deflect. But when
you launch into your own pomposity, as you did here, may I suggest your next purchase
to be a mirror? Thanks.

Simple Jaded
04-15-2018, 03:02 PM
All this brain damage over Case Keenum? Smdh

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04-15-2018, 03:03 PM
Actually if i wasnt your friend i would simply ignore you and tell you to piss off. A friend at least tries to find some middle ground in the conversation which you seem unwilling to do. But, i will leave you alone but please quit replying to my posts than if you do not like my opinions or viewpoints if you dont mind.
I didn't make any personal attacks on you. I was only trying to debate an issue. If I have
the facts, and you don't, where is the middle ground? I had no idea that you would be
so offended by my disagreeing with you. So, yes, I will quit replying.

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04-15-2018, 03:04 PM
All this brain damage over Case Keenum? Smdh
That's what I was wondering.

That's what I like about you, Jaded. We can insult the snot out of each other, and we're still buds. :beer:

Northman
04-15-2018, 03:05 PM
I didn't make any personal attacks on you. I was only trying to debate an issue. If I have
the facts, and you don't, where is the middle ground? I had no idea that you would be
so offended by my disagreeing with you. So, yes, I will quit replying.

Awesome. Case closed.

Simple Jaded
04-15-2018, 03:06 PM
Kubiak likely has never heard of Daniel Jeremiah, either. At least, not where he cares. Jeremiah
is a sports writer who makes wild guesses ("If the Broncos fail to land Kirk Cousins, they could
opt for a full rebuild"). Kubiak is a Super Bowl winning former Head Coach. Kubiak played
quarterback. Far as I know, Jeremiah hasn't ever been on the sidelines to an NFL game. At least,
not to where anyone cares.


So was that supposed to be some kind of rebuttal to my post? :lol:
No rebuttal, was simply watching Path To The Draft when I posted that.

You know nothing about Daniel Jeremiah, clearly, so I’ll give you a chance to reasses this. I Never said he was an NFL HC, eiether, btw.

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04-15-2018, 03:08 PM
No rebuttal, was simply watching Path To The Draft when I posted that.

You know nothing about Daniel Jeremiah, clearly, so I’ll give you a chance to reasses this. I Never said he was an NFL HC, eiether, btw.
Correct. I know little about Daniel Jeremiah. I study players, not pundits. :)

Simple Jaded
04-15-2018, 03:08 PM
I'm no great evaluater of NFL talent, so I don't know if Keenum is going to fail or be great.

I do hope he turns out to be an excellent signing - if for nothing else than to prove a few people here wrong.

What have I said that can be proven wrong?

Simple Jaded
04-15-2018, 03:10 PM
I sure hope no one is wanting Keenum to fail just to prove themselves right.

:rolleyes:

Simple Jaded
04-15-2018, 03:16 PM
I sure hope the QB class next year and the year after is stout.

It’s not, this class has two physically gifted QB’s that have experience with Pro concepts and verbiage. How often does that happen?

Poet
04-15-2018, 03:18 PM
It’s not, this class has two physically gifted QB’s that have experience with Pro concepts and verbiage. How often does that happen?

It's pretty rare.

Simple Jaded
04-15-2018, 03:19 PM
Correct. I know little about Daniel Jeremiah. I study players, not pundits. :)

Ok, so, he’s not Cecil Lammey.

Btw, do you study players, or just their stats?

Because watching CK isn’t nearly as fulfilling as his underwhelming box scores.

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04-15-2018, 03:20 PM
Ok, so, he’s not Cecil Lammey.

Btw, do you study players, or just their stats?
Jaded, read my article. :tsk:

Simple Jaded
04-15-2018, 03:24 PM
Jaded, read my article. :tsk:

Because watching CK isn’t nearly as fulfilling as his underwhelming box score.

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04-15-2018, 03:30 PM
Because watching CK isn’t nearly as fulfilling as his underwhelming box score.
I said I've seen several of his games. What more do you want?

Freyaka
04-15-2018, 03:34 PM
I said I've seen several of his games. What more do you want?

For you to stroke his ego by saying he's right and Keenum is a terrible QB.

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04-15-2018, 03:35 PM
For you to stroke his ego by saying he's right and Keenum is a terrible QB.
Okay, Jaded, you're right, and Keenum is a terrible QB.

Feel better now?

HORSEPOWER 56
04-15-2018, 03:38 PM
The heels are dug in. It’s over. It’s Orton 2.0. Stats and excuses will continue to rain down even after Keenum is gone from the team. You guys realize this is a Pyrrhic victory, right? I’ve seen these same posts before for Orton and how great he was immediately after we acquired him as well as all the excuses that flew when he didn’t perform (finger on throwing hand, multiple high ankle sprains, bad Oline, receivers dropping everything, running game not working, etc.) How someone professed to be the resident expert who knew all about his past and could explain away all his faults as not truly his and any disparaging remarks were met with useless stats and straw man arguments combined with passive aggressive personal jabs about “not reading” or “not comprehending” and “putting words in my mouth”, etc, etc, etc.

Rinse and repeat.