How would you stack the draft board for #5?

[dogfish]

discuss. . .

[MOtorboat]

Rosen
Chubb
That guard
Darnold
Allen

[underrated29]

Rosen
Chubb
Mayfield
Barkley
Nelson
Derwin

[Poet]

Rosen
Mayfield
Fitzpatrick
Allen
Darnold

[SmilinAssasSin27]

1) The #1 choice of Denver at QB if he really falls
2) The Guard...Notre Dame
3) Barkley...RB, Penn State
4) Smith...LB, Georgia
5) Vea...DL, Washington

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Rosen
Mayfield
Fitzpatrick
Allen
Mayfield

I see what you did right there

[Poet]

I see what you did right there

I thought about going Rosen x5.

[OrangeHoof]

1. Their QBOTF if they are confident it's the one they want.
2. Nelson
3. Barkley
4. Trade Down
5. Minkah

[Softskull]

Mayfield
Nelson
trade back...

Is that five?

[slim]

Darnold
Allen
Nelson
Barkley
Chubb

[Simple Jaded]

—Nelson
—Rosen
—Allen
—Nelson
—Barkley
—Darnold
—Ward
—James
—Mayfield (barf)

[aberdien]

Rosen
Nelson
Trade
Barkley
Allen

[OrangeHoof]

Darnold
Allen
Nelson
Barkley
Chubb

You'd be guaranteed to get one of them.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

You'd be guaranteed to get one of them.

That is generally how this would work.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Allen
Rosen
Nelson
Barkley
Darnold

[Simple Jaded]

Allen
Rosen
Nelson
Barkley
Darnold
You got to see Allen at lot?

[DenBronx]

I'm confused on who will be the best QB of the 4. Glad this decision isn't mine.

1. Saquan Barkley would be my choice and then move on from CJ.
2. Quinton Nelson
3. Chubb
4. Any of the 4 QBs but I believe Josh Allen has the most upside and would sit the first year. Is that what we do with #5 picks?

[Northman]

If im Denver this would be my approach. Since the signing of Keenum i would avoid taking a QB at #5 since none are givens and the position is deep this year. So i would start putting pieces in place around the QB position to give the QB a higher risk of success at this point in time.


1) Barkley- RB Penn State
2) Nelson- OG Notre Dame
3) Smith- LB Georgia
4) Chubb- DE NC State


If none of these guys are available at 5 Denver should trade back in hopes to picking up another 1st rounder to have 2 first round picks this year. The guys listed are must haves but if not there we should trade down.

[Elevation inc]

Chubb, Barkley, Mayfield, Nelson, Allen

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

You got to see Allen at lot?

No.

[CoachChaz]

Ranking prospects in order of which is the best?...

Nelson
Fitzpatrick
Barkley
Chubb
Edmunds
Ward

Already 6 players before I even get to the QB's. All of which are overrated in their own way.

[broncofaninfla]

Chubb
Barkley
Mayfield
Fitzpatrick
Nelson

[Timmy!]

Nelson
Barkley
Nelson
Nelson
Barkely

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Rosen
Mayfield
Allen
Chubb
Barkley

[dogfish]

Rosen
Mayfield
Allen
Chubb
Barkley

i think you forgot nelson, HP. . . :coffee: :laugh:

[Nomad]

I concur with Coach.

[Jsteve01]

Ranking prospects in order of which is the best?...

Nelson
Fitzpatrick
Barkley
Chubb
Edmunds
Ward

Already 6 players before I even get to the QB's. All of which are overrated in their own way.

Damnit coach. Thats my 5 or six perhaps in a slightly diff order and maybe i swap smith for ward

[Poet]

Rosen's so underrated. It's sad.

[Jsteve01]

Rosen's so underrated. It's sad.

Hmm new trend from you? Ive never heard you talk about him before

[Poet]

Hmm new trend from you? Ive never heard you talk about him before

They always say that the QB has to be a sure fire prospect - but Chubb isn't a sure fire player like Von Miller was. Nelson's 'great' but he's a guard, so he's never going to be an impact player. Fitzpatrick's a nice prospect, but I've seen better. These guys aren't good enough to justify NOT taking a QB.

God, Rosen's underrated.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

They always say that the QB has to be a sure fire prospect - but Chubb isn't a sure fire player like Von Miller was. Nelson's 'great' but he's a guard, so he's never going to be an impact player. Fitzpatrick's a nice prospect, but I've seen better. These guys aren't good enough to justify NOT taking a QB.

God, Rosen's underrated.

Larry Allen made the Cowboys offense go, not Emmett Smith

[Poet]

Larry Allen made the Cowboys offense go, not Emmett Smith

He was a part of it - And the fact that you can find like, maybe two guards who arguably were that important should tell you something. That this one lone player has to hit THAT level to justify the pick. Because even if he's just damn good, guess what, that's a guard. I kindly urge you to not be shortsighted.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

He was a part of it - And the fact that you can find like, maybe two guards who arguably were that important should tell you something. That this one lone player has to hit THAT level to justify the pick. Because even if he's just damn good, guess what, that's a guard. I kindly urge you to not be shortsighted.

I’m aware of that. Many people believe he is that good

[Simple Jaded]

No.

Didn’t he spank Broncos around once a year?

[Simple Jaded]

.

God, Rosen's underrated.
Not by the Jets, just sayin.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Didn’t he spank Broncos around once a year?

Negative. I don’t think he ever beat them.

[Poet]

I’m aware of that. Many people believe he is that good

Better be. Because if there's a QB who just becomes a Pro Bowler that we pass over and the guard becomes elite godking guard...the QB was still the better pick.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Better be. Because if there's a QB who just becomes a Pro Bowler that we pass over and the guard becomes elite godking guard...the QB was still the better pick.
Maybe so

[TXBRONC]

They always say that the QB has to be a sure fire prospect - but Chubb isn't a sure fire player like Von Miller was. Nelson's 'great' but he's a guard, so he's never going to be an impact player. Fitzpatrick's a nice prospect, but I've seen better. These guys aren't good enough to justify NOT taking a QB.

God, Rosen's underrated.

I disagree. While I think at this point it's likely that Denver will take a quarterback with the fifth pick in the draft it really depends how they feel about who is left. If Nelson is there at five and they decide to take him rather than quarterback it is justifiable to Nelson. If the quarterback(s) who are left when the Broncos pick rank behind Nelson then imo it would be foolish not take Nelson. I for one would not in any way be surprised if Nelson ranks ahead at least one of quarterbacks.

[Cugel]

I think the question implies trying to pick based on who you think will be available?

#1 - Darnold. This is now the consensus, that Cleveland will take Darnold #1 overall.
#2 - Chubb. If the Giants stay at #2 they take Chubb, because he could be the next Michael Strahan. Alternatively, they take Allen #2.
#3 - Jets take Mayfield.
#4 - If the Browns do not trade back with the Bills, which they will try to do, then they take Sequon Barkley.

#5 - This leaves Allen, Rosen, Nelson and Mickah Fitzpatrick at #5. Elway may take Allen, but only if he wants to fire Vance Joseph in mid season after the team starts 2-6. They need a boatload of talent for VJ to save his job and not a rookie QB who won't even play in 2018 (he won't beat out Keenum in his rookie year).

Then in 2019 they can pay Keenum $25m to hold a clip-board while Allen starts for the new Head Coach and Offensive coordinator - who might not even want Josh Allen as his star QB.

New coaches always bring new offensive schemes and new offensive coordinators. Allen might or might not be a good fit in whatever new scheme Denver is running in 2019.

[Simple Jaded]

Negative. I don’t think he ever beat them.

I think he did two years ago.

[Simple Jaded]

I think the question implies trying to pick based on who you think will be available?

#1 - Darnold. This is now the consensus, that Cleveland will take Darnold #1 overall.
#2 - Chubb. If the Giants stay at #2 they take Chubb, because he could be the next Michael Strahan. Alternatively, they take Allen #2.
#3 - Jets take Mayfield.
#4 - If the Browns do not trade back with the Bills, which they will try to do, then they take Sequon Barkley.

#5 - This leaves Allen, Rosen, Nelson and Mickah Fitzpatrick at #5. Elway may take Allen, but only if he wants to fire Vance Joseph in mid season after the team starts 2-6. They need a boatload of talent for VJ to save his job and not a rookie QB who won't even play in 2018 (he won't beat out Keenum in his rookie year).

Then in 2019 they can pay Keenum $25m to hold a clip-board while Allen starts for the new Head Coach and Offensive coordinator - who might not even want Josh Allen as his star QB.

New coaches always bring new offensive schemes and new offensive coordinators. Allen might or might not be a good fit in whatever new scheme Denver is running in 2019.
If Allen doesn’t fit then good luck landing a HC/OC that needs a scrub like CK for a QB.

Btw, CK has to be viewed as Elway’s gift to VJ, otherwise the signing doesn’t make sense ... I mean at all. Elway said he didn’t think he gave VJ what he needs to succeed at QB, that doesn’t mean they landed PFM and feel compelled to build around his 5-year-window. Hell, the Broncos went out and draft a QB a month after landing PFM.

[Simple Jaded]

Btw, just as a PSA, CK is no PFM.

[TXBRONC]

I think the question implies trying to pick based on who you think will be available?

#1 - Darnold. This is now the consensus, that Cleveland will take Darnold #1 overall.
#2 - Chubb. If the Giants stay at #2 they take Chubb, because he could be the next Michael Strahan. Alternatively, they take Allen #2.
#3 - Jets take Mayfield.
#4 - If the Browns do not trade back with the Bills, which they will try to do, then they take Sequon Barkley.

#5 - This leaves Allen, Rosen, Nelson and Mickah Fitzpatrick at #5. Elway may take Allen, but only if he wants to fire Vance Joseph in mid season after the team starts 2-6. They need a boatload of talent for VJ to save his job and not a rookie QB who won't even play in 2018 (he won't beat out Keenum in his rookie year).

Then in 2019 they can pay Keenum $25m to hold a clip-board while Allen starts for the new Head Coach and Offensive coordinator - who might not even want Josh Allen as his star QB.

New coaches always bring new offensive schemes and new offensive coordinators. Allen might or might not be a good fit in whatever new scheme Denver is running in 2019.

I don't think so Cugel it's highly unlikely a new coach would be allowed to trade away a player who was drafted one year earlier with fifth overall pick. There is way to much invested in that player to just trade him away. Besides that it wouldn't be the head coach who makes that decision it's Elway. Lets says Denver does draft Rosen or Allen and Joseph does get fired I suspect part of the interview process would center around a coach who could develop that quarterback.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I think he did two years ago.
If he did that’s impressive because Wyoming’s roster is always at the bottom of the talent pool in the MW

[Cugel]

If Allen doesn’t fit then good luck landing a HC/OC that needs a scrub like CK for a QB.

Btw, CK has to be viewed as Elway’s gift to VJ, otherwise the signing doesn’t make sense ... I mean at all. Elway said he didn’t think he gave VJ what he needs to succeed at QB, that doesn’t mean they landed PFM and feel compelled to build around his 5-year-window. Hell, the Broncos went out and draft a QB a month after landing PFM.

They didn't know if Peyton would last more than 1 season. Nobody knew that, it was a shot in the dark. SO, they drafted a young QB to develop for a few seasons behind Peyton in the second round. Totally different situation.

Vance Joseph was hired instead of Kyle Shanahan because Shanahan wanted to hire all his own assistants and run his system, and not keep some of Elway's and Kubiak's coaches.

Then the Broncos failed epically in the draft the last 2 seasons, giving up a 1st and third rounder to move up and take Lynch. They are almost totally devoid of talent on offense, and have lost 5 of the starters off their SB team, including HOF DeMarcus Ware.

They have replaced none of that talent, and this off-season got WORSE not better so far by losing their best special teams player, only other pro-bowler than Von in Aquib, and their best offensive player (CJ Anderson isn't coming back).

Against this they traded for an oft-injured RT whose team wanted to dump his $10m salary, and Keenum, who is an adequate but not elite QB.

And during all this, they will have gone through 4 head coaches and about 30 assistants hired and fired the last 4 years! Team turmoil.

The Broncos need to seriously beef up the talent level on this roster, starting at the #5 position. They need immediate impact players if VJ is to save his job.

You might think it's inevitable they fire him anyway, but if Elway puts Barkley, Nelson or Chubb on this roster, adds some more talent in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, and then they go 6-10 or something, then he can say "we gave VJ a chance and he failed".

And there's a chance some hot young head coaching prospect will give the Broncos a chance.

Right now, Elway is looking more and more like a coach-killer, whom no head coach prospect wants to coach for. This is no longer an elite franchise and the Elway keeps firing and hiring coaches faster and faster, it's not even a desirable job any more!

That has to change. IT's a lot more important to help VJ become a success and establish some stability, than it is to find a long term QB this year. And that's assuming that Keenum can't continue to develop into a top 10-12 QB and they have to replace him. They are giving him a 1 year audition to see.

[Hawgdriver]

Darnold
Nelson
Chubb
Barkley
Vea

[Cugel]

BTW: The Bucs announcers are talking about the Bucs grabbing Nelson at #7, so he's obviously going in the top 10. They're reportedly trying to upgrade their line to protect Winston. If he gets past the Bucs, he could go to the Bears at #8. They also need a G.

So, the idea that you don't take a G in the top 5 because it's not an "impact position" is just stupid. Defenses are trying to create mis-matches on the inside. Looping guys like Justin Tuck around and getting middle pressure on Tom Brady is how the Giants won 2 SBs.

[Poet]

BTW: The Bucs announcers are talking about the Bucs grabbing Nelson at #7, so he's obviously going in the top 10. They're reportedly trying to upgrade their line to protect Winston. If he gets past the Bucs, he could go to the Bears at #8. They also need a G.

So, the idea that you don't take a G in the top 5 because it's not an "impact position" is just stupid. Defenses are trying to create mis-matches on the inside. Looping guys like Justin Tuck around and getting middle pressure on Tom Brady is how the Giants won 2 SBs.

Do you understand the difference between five and seven?

Do you understand the notion that a top five pick is supposed to be an all-pro?

Do you understand the notion that you would still need that guard to be beyond great to justify that pick?

Do you?

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Do you understand the difference between five and seven?



I believe the answer you are looking for is two.

[Simple Jaded]

If he did that’s impressive because Wyoming’s roster is always at the bottom of the talent pool in the MW
http://www.espn.com/college-football/game?gameId=400869232

30-28 Wyoming in 2016. They scored 13 4th qtr points to win it.

[Simple Jaded]

They didn't know if Peyton would last more than 1 season. Nobody knew that, it was a shot in the dark. SO, they drafted a young QB to develop for a few seasons behind Peyton in the second round. Totally different situation.

Vance Joseph was hired instead of Kyle Shanahan because Shanahan wanted to hire all his own assistants and run his system, and not keep some of Elway's and Kubiak's coaches.

Then the Broncos failed epically in the draft the last 2 seasons, giving up a 1st and third rounder to move up and take Lynch. They are almost totally devoid of talent on offense, and have lost 5 of the starters off their SB team, including HOF DeMarcus Ware.

They have replaced none of that talent, and this off-season got WORSE not better so far by losing their best special teams player, only other pro-bowler than Von in Aquib, and their best offensive player (CJ Anderson isn't coming back).

Against this they traded for an oft-injured RT whose team wanted to dump his $10m salary, and Keenum, who is an adequate but not elite QB.

And during all this, they will have gone through 4 head coaches and about 30 assistants hired and fired the last 4 years! Team turmoil.

The Broncos need to seriously beef up the talent level on this roster, starting at the #5 position. They need immediate impact players if VJ is to save his job.

You might think it's inevitable they fire him anyway, but if Elway puts Barkley, Nelson or Chubb on this roster, adds some more talent in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, and then they go 6-10 or something, then he can say "we gave VJ a chance and he failed".

And there's a chance some hot young head coaching prospect will give the Broncos a chance.

Right now, Elway is looking more and more like a coach-killer, whom no head coach prospect wants to coach for. This is no longer an elite franchise and the Elway keeps firing and hiring coaches faster and faster, it's not even a desirable job any more!

That has to change. IT's a lot more important to help VJ become a success and establish some stability, than it is to find a long term QB this year. And that's assuming that Keenum can't continue to develop into a top 10-12 QB and they have to replace him. They are giving him a 1 year audition to see.

John Elway emphatically said he has to and will solve the QB situation this offseason, you’re telling me that his solution is a 2-year-deal with a garbage backup talent, I expect more.

[Nomad]

John Elway emphatically said he has to and will solve the QB situation this offseason, you’re telling me that his solution is a 2-year-deal with a garbage backup talent, I expect more.

He also said when a team has a top draft pick, they must draft an impact player (back when Broncos drafted Miller). I'd be surprised if he reaches for one of these average QBs @ #5.

[chazoe60]

I'm starting to come around to the idea of Josh Allen and I have the suspicion that he is the ultimate target of JFE. I think that's why CK is on a 2 year contract. I think if Rosen or Mayfield were the target we'd have went after a tier 3 QB. Now, with Allen's proday/wonderlick etc. We are going to have to move up to 2 to get him and I wouldn't doubt if that's the idea right now.

Either way draft nigght is going to be really exciting.

[dogfish]

I'm starting to come around to the idea of Josh Allen and I have the suspicion that he is the ultimate target of JFE. I think that's why CK is on a 2 year contract. I think if Rosen or Mayfield were the target we'd have went after a tier 3 QB. Now, with Allen's proday/wonderlick etc. We are going to have to move up to 2 to get him and I wouldn't doubt if that's the idea right now.

Either way draft nigght is going to be really exciting.

i will burn this whole mothereffer to the ground if we trade up for that chump. . .

[MOtorboat]

i will burn this whole mothereffer to the ground if we trade up for that chump. . .

What’re you worried about? It’s Mayfield at 5.

[TXBRONC]

They didn't know if Peyton would last more than 1 season. Nobody knew that, it was a shot in the dark. SO, they drafted a young QB to develop for a few seasons behind Peyton in the second round. Totally different situation.

Vance Joseph was hired instead of Kyle Shanahan because Shanahan wanted to hire all his own assistants and run his system, and not keep some of Elway's and Kubiak's coaches.

Then the Broncos failed epically in the draft the last 2 seasons, giving up a 1st and third rounder to move up and take Lynch. They are almost totally devoid of talent on offense, and have lost 5 of the starters off their SB team, including HOF DeMarcus Ware.

They have replaced none of that talent, and this off-season got WORSE not better so far by losing their best special teams player, only other pro-bowler than Von in Aquib, and their best offensive player (CJ Anderson isn't coming back).

Against this they traded for an oft-injured RT whose team wanted to dump his $10m salary, and Keenum, who is an adequate but not elite QB.

And during all this, they will have gone through 4 head coaches and about 30 assistants hired and fired the last 4 years! Team turmoil.

The Broncos need to seriously beef up the talent level on this roster, starting at the #5 position. They need immediate impact players if VJ is to save his job.

You might think it's inevitable they fire him anyway, but if Elway puts Barkley, Nelson or Chubb on this roster, adds some more talent in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, and then they go 6-10 or something, then he can say "we gave VJ a chance and he failed".

And there's a chance some hot young head coaching prospect will give the Broncos a chance.

Right now, Elway is looking more and more like a coach-killer, whom no head coach prospect wants to coach for. This is no longer an elite franchise and the Elway keeps firing and hiring coaches faster and faster, it's not even a desirable job any more!

That has to change. IT's a lot more important to help VJ become a success and establish some stability, than it is to find a long term QB this year. And that's assuming that Keenum can't continue to develop into a top 10-12 QB and they have to replace him. They are giving him a 1 year audition to see.

What are you talking about Elway is looking more and more coach killer? That makes no sense, at best it's unclear whether or no John Fox quit or Elway actually fired him. He didn't fire Kubiak, he (meaning Kubiak) retired because of health issues.

[Cugel]

Do you understand the difference between five and seven?

Do you understand the notion that a top five pick is supposed to be an all-pro?

Do you understand the notion that you would still need that guard to be beyond great to justify that pick?

Do you?

B.S. The difference between #5 and #7 is 200 points: 1700 versus 1500 (http://walterfootball.com/draftchart.php), which is equal to a pick in the middle of the 3rd round. So, there's not a huge difference.

A top 10 pick is supposed to be an All-Pro BTW. But, is the 4th best QB in the draft going to be an All-Pro?

Nelson is potentially the best G in the draft in perhaps 10 years or more. He's expected to be an All-Pro or potentially a Hall of Fame G. And he's, by all draft reports, the most "can't-miss" player in the entire draft, even better than Barkley or Chubb.

And G is becoming more and more of an important position, which you can see simply by looking at how much $ FA G's are getting right now. If they weren't highly valued, they wouldn't be getting so much money. :coffee:

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

What’re you worried about? It’s Mayfield at 5.

I like how you’re preparing yourself so you don’t go nuclear if it happens

[dogfish]

I like how you’re preparing yourself so you don’t go nuclear if it happens

he thinks he can jinx it. . . :laugh:

[Cugel]

The failure of you fans is that you think whatever draft pick QB you personally like this week is bound to become a superstar, and he's also going to be on the board at #5.

But, all of these guys are NOT likely to become stars in the NFL, maybe 1 or 2 of them might be, but nobody knows which ones. And we don't know which QBs Elway wants.

What if it's Sam Darnold and Josh Allen, neither of whom is likely to be available? Should he then just take a QB, just to take a Qb?

Unless your preferred QB is Josh Rosen, he is NOT likely to be on the board at #5. The Browns are taking Darnold, the Jets are taking either Mayfield or more probably Allen, and that doesn't even take the Giants into account - who might very well take Allen at #2. If they do, then Mayfield will certainly be gone at #3.

So, this entire conversation could be completely academic, unless Elway really wants Josh Rosen.

[TXBRONC]

i will burn this whole mothereffer to the ground if we trade up for that chump. . .

Dog it's going to be ok. I don't agree with you that Allen is a chump of four prospects he's the most gifted. The guy who by admittedly rumor seems to be the most chump is Rosen. Should they trade up to get him if he's guy Elway likes the best? I'm leery of it, but I would hesitant with doing that for any of the top four.

[Cugel]

John Elway emphatically said he has to and will solve the QB situation this offseason, you’re telling me that his solution is a 2-year-deal with a garbage backup talent, I expect more.

You think that but that doesn't mean that Elway does. He solved the QB problem for this year and next by giving Keenum $36m guaranteed.

Your assumption is that Keenum just sucks. Based on what? That he sucked under Jeff Fisher? Every QB sucked under Jeff Fisher.

[Nomad]

i will burn this whole mothereffer to the ground if we trade up for that chump. . .

If Elway moves up for anyone in this draft, I'd have to fly down to Denver, and slap Elway across the head. Hopefully, he is not drinking at the time of the draft.

[Cugel]

Dog it's going to be ok. I don't agree with you that Allen is a chump of four prospects he's the most gifted. The guy who by admittedly rumor seems to be the most chump is Rosen. Should they trade up to get him if he's guy Elway likes the best? I'm leery of it, but I would hesitant with doing that for any of the top four.

So, fortunately, is Elway very likely. If Rosen doesn't go #2 to the Giants, in all probability he's sliding out of the top 5 and might land at #12 to the Bills, if they want him. People are making Jay Cutler comparisons about him now, which is never a good sign.

I don't have an opinion about which of these QBs will be great - if any of them so I don't care which QB is selected.

Elway better be sure of his pick though, and if he's not, if the guy he really wants is gone at #5 then draft a player and roll with Keenum for a year.

[Cugel]

If Elway moves up for anyone in this draft, I'd have to fly down to Denver, and slap Elway across the head. Hopefully, he is not drinking at the time of the draft.

I agree with this. Just imagine this scenario:

Elway moves up to #4 and takes Allen, giving up the Broncos 2nd round pick (#40). This is not improbable since the Jets gave up THREE 2nd round picks to move up 3 spots.

So, you've got Josh Allen, who is NOT going to start in 2018 no matter how much the fans howl "start Allen!"

He's taking a red-shirt year, and btw, you've given up your entire first and second round of the draft to get a guy who won't even play for a year.

Of course, the Broncos will be lucky to win 7 games in this scenario, and more likely will be picking in the top 5 again next year. Vance Joseph will probably be fired by the bye-week.

This means 4 head coaches gone in 4 1/2 years: Fox lasted 3 seasons and was fired after failing to win a SB, Kubiak only lasted 2 more years and VJ 18 months. This is not the trend hot head coaching prospects want to see.

"Elway is a coach-killer who doesn't give his head coach a chance and doesn't put any talent around him! Then he fires you after 2 seasons when you can't coach their roster full of duds to a SB. " - that's going to be the word around NFL coaches. Nobody good is going to want that job.

Just because YOU love the Broncos doesn't mean NFL coaches want to come here the way things have been going.

Then the next head coach, whoever he is, has to come here and coach up Josh Allen. What offensive philosophy is he even going to have? Who's going to be the assistant QB coach who will develop him? It would be a huge problem.

[underrated29]

Lol- Rosen does not make it out of the top 5. He is the best QB imo. But cleveland will cleveland.....Rosen has everything except some bubbly personality. Boo hoo. He reads the defense, makes all the throws, super accurate, great touch, near perfect mechanics. His biggest detriments have nothing to do with the actual game of football. He has no off field stuff, no players saying bad things about him or grabbing his junk on the sidelines. He just doesnt have this bubbly personality and is cocky cuz he is smart. The rest is a big what if.

---------------------------

Cugel, your entire scenario is a big what if too. We arent trading up to 4 for Allen. So the whole post you made is moot. For your quote about Elways being a coach killer I can give you a similar quote that is not based upon what ifs, but actual factual existence. "Elway, the great, took a team and in 5 years time made them the #1 offense in NFL history. Then 2 years later turned them into one of the greatest Defenses in NFL history." He expects the best and has delivered 2 superbowl trips in that time, if the head coach isnt up to par he will find someone that is.

He just added a brand new rookie QB to build the franchise around as well as RB and WR and TE. THe oline is being rebuilt. This is a team on the way back up.

[BroncoJoe]

The failure of you fans is that you think whatever draft pick QB you personally like this week is bound to become a superstar, and he's also going to be on the board at #5.

But, all of these guys are NOT likely to become stars in the NFL, maybe 1 or 2 of them might be, but nobody knows which ones. And we don't know which QBs Elway wants.

What if it's Sam Darnold and Josh Allen, neither of whom is likely to be available? Should he then just take a QB, just to take a Qb?

Unless your preferred QB is Josh Rosen, he is NOT likely to be on the board at #5. The Browns are taking Darnold, the Jets are taking either Mayfield or more probably Allen, and that doesn't even take the Giants into account - who might very well take Allen at #2. If they do, then Mayfield will certainly be gone at #3.

So, this entire conversation could be completely academic, unless Elway really wants Josh Rosen.

I really hate your posting style. I think you should place your computer behind the rear wheel of your car and back up. Then, pull your car back into your garage (if you have one), close the garage door, roll down the windows and keep the car running.

If you don't have a garage, steal a garden hose, place one end in your exhaust pipe and the other end through a window. Roll up the window as far as possible and start the car.

We'd all appreciate it.

[underrated29]

lol omg :lol::lol:

[Hawgdriver]

Lol- Rosen does not make it out of the top 5. He is the best QB imo. But cleveland will cleveland.....Rosen has everything except some bubbly personality. Boo hoo. He reads the defense, makes all the throws, super accurate, great touch, near perfect mechanics. His biggest detriments have nothing to do with the actual game of football. He has no off field stuff, no players saying bad things about him or grabbing his junk on the sidelines. He just doesnt have this bubbly personality and is cocky cuz he is smart. The rest is a big what if.

You are leaving out his two concussions last season that cost him two games. I agree with the rest.

[underrated29]

You are leaving out his two concussions last season that cost him two games. I agree with the rest.

Ah, yes. But many players and qbs miss time for injury or concussions. Our own team is a great example.

[Poet]

I really hate your posting style. I think you should place your computer behind the rear wheel of your car and back up. Then, pull your car back into your garage (if you have one), close the garage door, roll down the windows and keep the car running.

If you don't have a garage, steal a garden hose, place one end in your exhaust pipe and the other end through a window. Roll up the window as far as possible and start the car.

We'd all appreciate it.

#shotsfired
#unloadedtheclip
#thatboydead
#someonecallhismomma
#style
#styledon
#TheStyleDon
#noopencasketfuneral
#disrespect
#dayum
#yashistrash

[Timmy!]

Lol

[Buff]

I have six dudes who I'd be happy with, so assuming we stay at 5 it should be one of these guys:

Darnold
Allen
Rosen
Barkley
Chubb
Nelson

No to Mayfield, no to Denzel Ward and if we are enamored with anyone else we should trade back.

[Hawgdriver]

Ah, yes. But many players and qbs miss time for injury or concussions. Our own team is a great example.

Yes, Rosen will be sure to miss the time required to take care of his brain. He's smart.

[Timmy!]

I have six dudes who I'd be happy with, so assuming we stay at 5 it should be one of these guys:

Darnold
Allen
Rosen
Barkley
Chubb
Nelson

No to Mayfield, no to Denzel Ward and if we are enamored with anyone else we should trade back.

I can live with one of the QBs, who will likely bust knowing us. I'd rather have Barkely, and Chub would be acceptable. That said....

Nnnneeellllsssssooooonnnnnne8ew9q919ww2!!!!!!!

[Simple Jaded]

You think that but that doesn't mean that Elway does. He solved the QB problem for this year and next by giving Keenum $36m guaranteed.

Your assumption is that Keenum just sucks. Based on what? That he sucked under Jeff Fisher? Every QB sucked under Jeff Fisher.

I’m not assuming anything, I’ve not made any predictions, i’m Saying CK is garbage backup talent. He is.

Btw, he also sucked under Kubiak, got him fired.

#CoachKiller

[Poet]

To solve a problem you have to have an actual solution. So, if, for instance, CK was awful this year he doesn't solve it next year. Cugel, you say some wild shit, man.

[Simple Jaded]

Dude, with natural born coach killers CK and John Elway around VJ is dead man walking.

[Cugel]

I’m not assuming anything, I’ve not made any predictions, i’m Saying CK is garbage backup talent. He is.

Btw, he also sucked under Kubiak, got him fired.

#CoachKiller

He sucked under Kubiak as a backup undrafted rookie? So badly Kubiak is the one who brought him back here to Denver.

Who the flipping hell do you think is behind this move? Who was it who brought Kubiak in to supplant Marc Russell, Director of Pro-Personnel, since the latter has sucked so utterly the last 3 years in identifying offensive talent in the draft?

That would be Elway. Elway brought in Kubiak specifically to "solve the QB problem" as Elway put it succinctly. And Kubiak solved the problem.

They focused early and hard on Keenum, decided he was the QB they wanted starting next season, and went out and signed him.

You may think he's trash but Kubiak doesn't and Elway doesn't and I'll trust their judgment over yours in this.

[Simple Jaded]

I was the first, if not the only one, to say this is Kubiak’s fault. I know who to blame.

Btw, Kubiak is a horrible talent evaluator. Horrible. This is a guy who’d rather have Owen Daniels than Gronk, Ben Tate than Saquon Barkley.

He’s horrible.

[Poet]

He sucked under Kubiak as a backup undrafted rookie? So badly Kubiak is the one who brought him back here to Denver.

Who the flipping hell do you think is behind this move? Who was it who brought Kubiak in to supplant Marc Russell, Director of Pro-Personnel, since the latter has sucked so utterly the last 3 years in identifying offensive talent in the draft?

That would be Elway. Elway brought in Kubiak specifically to "solve the QB problem" as Elway put it succinctly. And Kubiak solved the problem.

They focused early and hard on Keenum, decided he was the QB they wanted starting next season, and went out and signed him.

You may think he's trash but Kubiak doesn't and Elway doesn't and I'll trust their judgment over yours in this.

He didn't ever look good under Kubiak.

Kubiak's track record with QB's isn't delightful. To say the problem is solved when CK has had one good year and will likely be less than good doesn't mean he solved anything. It means they made a decision. If CK goes out there and can't cut it, and he starts the next season, did that solve anything in the hypothetical?

They were probably the only ones focusing on CK because the rest of the teams went after the QB who was actually good.

[Simple Jaded]

This is the guy who gave you TS, gave Houston fans TJ Yates.

Dude, just stop licking his boots. He’s a coach, period, point blank.

[Poet]

This is the guy who gave you TS, gave Houston fans TJ Yates.

Dude, just stop licking his boots. He’s a coach, period, point blank.

He did well with Schaub. I will give him that.

[Simple Jaded]

He did well with Schaub. I will give him that.

Schaub had talent, drafted in the 2nd round iirc. I’m surprised Kubes wanted anything to do with him.

[Poet]

Schaub had talent, drafted in the 2nd round iirc. I’m surprised Kubes wanted anything to do with him.

Kubiak just had the game pass him by is all. He did one thing well - he hired Wade Phillips. That's it.

[Simple Jaded]

Kubiak just had the game pass him by is all. He did one thing well - he hired Wade Phillips. That's it.

This isn’t new though, he’s always valued scrubs. He would rather have a team full of Kubiak’s than a team full of John Elway’s.

#FitsTheSystem

[Poet]

This isn’t new though, he’s always valued scrubs. He would rather have a team full of Kubiak’s than a team full of John Elway’s.

#FitsTheSystem

I used to get murdered here for pointing out how 'ungood' GK was. It took postSB victory for the rest to seeeeeeeeeeeeeeee the liiiiiiiiiight.

[Simple Jaded]

I used to get murdered here for pointing out how 'ungood' GK was. It took postSB victory for the rest to seeeeeeeeeeeeeeee the liiiiiiiiiight.

He’s a great HC and OC, horrible talent evaluator. He’d be an even better HC or OC if he wasn’t allowed to be involved in personnel.

#ThisIsWhyIHitYou.

[Simple Jaded]

“Sorry, no can do Gary, you do not need Ben Jones, Cooper Carlisle and Ty Sampro to run ZBS”

[Poet]

He’s a great HC and OC, horrible talent evaluator. He’d be an even better HC or OC if he wasn’t allowed to be involved in personnel.

#ThisIsWhyIHitYou.

He's a horrible HC. He was an underachiever in Houston, and the quick turnaround that franchise had, plus GK's ability to ONLY beat the Bengals (how hard is that) should tell you what he was in Houston.

He did nothing in Denver. When the offense was good it was because of Peyton. When the team won the SB it was because of the defense. His success was more variance based than anything else.

[Simple Jaded]

He's a horrible HC. He was an underachiever in Houston, and the quick turnaround that franchise had, plus GK's ability to ONLY beat the Bengals (how hard is that) should tell you what he was in Houston.

He did nothing in Denver. When the offense was good it was because of Peyton. When the team won the SB it was because of the defense. His success was more variance based than anything else.
Scoreboard.

#Scoreboard
#It’sScience
#YoureAHorriblePerson
#ThunderPoundsWhenJadedStompsTheGround

[Poet]

What scoreboard? What is on that scoreboard other than him being present for Phillips' and the defense? He sucks. He's shown it.

[Simple Jaded]

The SB50 scoreboard was pretty sweet.

[Poet]

The SB50 scoreboard was pretty sweet.

I agree. Sad he had little to do with it.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

he thinks he can jinx it. . . :laugh:

Yeah, he’d still go nuclear, not king nuclear though. As the Highlander would say, “there can be only one.” :laugh:

[dogfish]

Yeah, he’d still go nuclear, not king nuclear though. As the Highlander would say, “there can be only one.” :laugh:

oh yea, king's getting banned on draft night for sure. . .

[slim]

oh yea, king's getting banned on draft night for sure. . .

Do we have to wait until draft night?

[OrangeHoof]

Schaub had talent, drafted in the 2nd round iirc. I’m surprised Kubes wanted anything to do with him.

Schaub was a third-round pick in the draft whom Atlanta traded to Houston for a pair of seconds after some successful backup performances.

[OrangeHoof]

CK was undrafted as an undersized spread-offense quarterback. He sat on the Texans practice squad and was pushed into action after injuries depleted the Texans. The OL blocking for Keenum at the time was a hot mess, particularly on the right side and Keenum spent a lot of time running for his life and flinging long passes that sometimes clicked but usually didn't. This was at great variance with Kube's usual offensive playcalling which was to complete a 5-yard pass when you needed 7 or more for the first down.

Texans owner Bob McNair wanted to keep playing Keenum when Kubiak wanted to bring back an injured and ineffective Schaub - that's what got Gary fired (plus the sideline collapses). As for Houston in the post-season, O'Brien has been in the same rut as Kubiak - not advancing past the second round. It seems to happen a lot in the AFC when the second round means playing in New England or Baltimore.

[Simple Jaded]

I agree. Sad he had little to do with it.

Players play.
Coaches coach.

[Simple Jaded]

CK was undrafted as an undersized spread-offense quarterback. He sat on the Texans practice squad and was pushed into action after injuries depleted the Texans. The OL blocking for Keenum at the time was a hot mess, particularly on the right side and Keenum spent a lot of time running for his life and flinging long passes that sometimes clicked but usually didn't. This was at great variance with Kube's usual offensive playcalling which was to complete a 5-yard pass when you needed 7 or more for the first down.

Texans owner Bob McNair wanted to keep playing Keenum when Kubiak wanted to bring back an injured and ineffective Schaub - that's what got Gary fired (plus the sideline collapses). As for Houston in the post-season, O'Brien has been in the same rut as Kubiak - not advancing past the second round. It seems to happen a lot in the AFC when the second round means playing in New England or Baltimore.

Sure, when we’re denigrating Kubiak’s coaching the hot mess talent doesn’t matter but when we’re defending the hot mess talent it’s the other hot mess talents fault.

And Keenum is not anything but a dink and dunk QB, always has been, I hope we’re not saying otherwise.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Kubiak is an excellent coach. It will be 3 years before we can judge any impact on the value he brings to the Brings as a talent evaluator.

[Simple Jaded]

Kubiak is an excellent coach. It will be 3 years before we can judge any impact on the value he brings to the Brings as a talent evaluator.

It took CK 6 years, a half dozen OC’s and three different teams.

[Nomad]

Do we have to wait until draft night?

Which team drafts Rosen, King will become a fan of and leave. Just like the Tebowites did. King is a Rosenite.

[Hawgdriver]

Which team drafts Rosen, King will become a fan of and leave. Just like the Tebowites did. King is a Rosenite.

Too cruel.

Rosen is the best QB in this draft class right now, I don't think it's all that close. I hope his concussion thing is just a ploy to preserve his draft capital and he's aiming for the lucrative NFL career with endorsements and such. He is by far the best among the current QBs as a guy you would say 'that's an NFL QB.'

These other guys are like wild, formless savannah predators trying to copy the lion. Maybe one day they will become a lion. Darnold is like a Rosen lion but has a hitch in his giddyup and still does lion cub things. Mayfield is the pygmy lion with attitude. Allen is a huge ball of savannah stem cells. Rosen is the lion.

When you need a lion on your roster, why not take the lion?

Because this lion gets pissed off when someone steps on his tail?

[Nomad]

Too cruel.

Rosen is the best QB in this draft class right now, I don't think it's all that close. I hope his concussion thing is just a ploy to preserve his draft capital and he's aiming for the lucrative NFL career with endorsements and such. He is by far the best among the current QBs as a guy you would say 'that's an NFL QB.'

These other guys are like wild, formless savannah predators trying to copy the lion. Maybe one day they will become a lion. Darnold is like a Rosen lion but has a hitch in his giddyup and still does lion cub things. Mayfield is the pygmy lion with attitude. Allen is a huge ball of savannah stem cells. Rosen is the lion.

When you need a lion on your roster, why not take the lion?

Because this lion gets pissed off when someone steps on his tail?

Whoa there, Hawg! Don't get too carried away. :D

[slim]

Too cruel.

Rosen is the best QB in this draft class right now, I don't think it's all that close. I hope his concussion thing is just a ploy to preserve his draft capital and he's aiming for the lucrative NFL career with endorsements and such. He is by far the best among the current QBs as a guy you would say 'that's an NFL QB.'

These other guys are like wild, formless savannah predators trying to copy the lion. Maybe one day they will become a lion. Darnold is like a Rosen lion but has a hitch in his giddyup and still does lion cub things. Mayfield is the pygmy lion with attitude. Allen is a huge ball of savannah stem cells. Rosen is the lion.

When you need a lion on your roster, why not take the lion?

Because this lion gets pissed off when someone steps on his tail?

His own coach prefers Darnold.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

His own coach prefers Darnold.
That’s not what Mora said. Mora said Rosen is the better pocket qb.

[slim]

That’s not what Mora said. Mora said Rosen is the better pocket qb.

He said if he was picking 1, he would take Darnold.

[Poet]

Which team drafts Rosen, King will become a fan of and leave. Just like the Tebowites did. King is a Rosenite.

:tsk:

[Hawgdriver]

He said if he was picking 1, he would take Darnold.

Interesting. What's the quote exactly?

[Hawgdriver]

Appearing on NFL Network's "Path to the Draft," Jim Mora, Jr., who coached Rosen at UCLA, said he believes that Darnold, who played football at USC (a rival of UCLA if you haven't heard), is a better fit than Rosen in Cleveland because of his "blue collar" approach to the game.

"Because of fit, I would take Sam Darnold if I was the Cleveland Browns. I think that blue collar, gritty attitude. I think his teammates will love him, I think the city will love him," Mora said. "He'll say the right things, he'll come in and represent well. I think he kind of represents what Cleveland is. And if I was one of the New York teams, I'd take Josh like [snaps fingers] that. I think they're both going to be great pros."

Hm.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Hm.

That’s interesting because he knows Rosen pretty well. His daughter and Rosen are really good friends and by all accounts he likes Rosen.

[Poet]

Hm.

If he was picking number one, as the Browns, and not in a vacuum, he'd take Darnold.

Sounds like he thinks their personalities are so different that different settings would be better for them.

I'll take the guy who can survive the pressure and scrutiny of New York.

[Cugel]

Cugel, your entire scenario is a big what if too. We arent trading up to 4 for Allen. So the whole post you made is moot. For your quote about Elways being a coach killer I can give you a similar quote that is not based upon what ifs, but actual factual existence. "Elway, the great, took a team and in 5 years time made them the #1 offense in NFL history. Then 2 years later turned them into one of the greatest Defenses in NFL history." He expects the best and has delivered 2 superbowl trips in that time, if the head coach isnt up to par he will find someone that is.

He just added a brand new rookie QB to build the franchise around as well as RB and WR and TE. THe oline is being rebuilt. This is a team on the way back up.

You managed to miss the entire point of that post, which considering how basic it is, was actually an impressive miss.

Elway is not a coach killer NOW because he has not fired Vance Joseph YET. The point is that taking a QB at #5 who won't play in 2018 isn't helping VJ keep his job.

It is in fact setting VJ up to fail, get fired and then set up the Broncos for the NEXT head coach, who will presumably inherit Josh Allen or Baker Mayfield.

There are lots of fans who will look on that scenario as a win-win. Get rid of Joseph and draft Mayfield or Allen. Except that NFL coaches will NOT view the matter at all like that.

They will see that Fox lasted 3 years and got fired after taking the team to a SB, and 38 wins over 3 seasons, Kubiak came in and won the SB but only lasted 2 years and now VJ gets fired in 18 months.

This is a disturbing trend if you happen to be looking at taking Vance Joseph's job.

Elway must do everything he can to help Joseph win 8 games this year, and future QB be damned. Because if they fire him, it will set the franchise back significantly. You change the coaching regime again, now you're Cleveland. That's exactly what they do every 2 or 3 years or so.

That is, in fact, the biggest reason they suck. Instability. No continuity. No long term plan. Do everything ad hoc. Change your philosophy on offense and defense on an annual basis and then have to replace all the players who used to fit in the old system, but not in the new one.

Rinse and repeat. In fact, constant coaching changes are a perfect recipe for organizational failure.

[Cugel]

Too cruel.

Rosen is the best QB in this draft class right now, I don't think it's all that close. I hope his concussion thing is just a ploy to preserve his draft capital and he's aiming for the lucrative NFL career with endorsements and such. He is by far the best among the current QBs as a guy you would say 'that's an NFL QB.'

These other guys are like wild, formless savannah predators trying to copy the lion. Maybe one day they will become a lion. Darnold is like a Rosen lion but has a hitch in his giddyup and still does lion cub things. Mayfield is the pygmy lion with attitude. Allen is a huge ball of savannah stem cells. Rosen is the lion.

When you need a lion on your roster, why not take the lion?

Because this lion gets pissed off when someone steps on his tail?

Wow, man. That is like totally far out, man!

11942

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

If he was picking number one, as the Browns, and not in a vacuum, he'd take Darnold.

Sounds like he thinks their personalities are so different that different settings would be better for them.

I'll take the guy who can survive the pressure and scrutiny of New York.
Or maybe he thinks he’d sell more jerseys in New York and is more of a media darling. Who knows what his motivation for saying that was. I certainly don’t.

[Poet]

Or maybe he thinks he’d sell more jerseys in New York and is more of a media darling. Who knows what his motivation for saying that was. I certainly don’t.

Man...stop.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Man...stop.

Ok.

[Poet]

Ok.

:elefant:

[dogfish]

Hm.

yikes. . . so his own coach doesn't think he has grit and blue collar work ethic? damn. . .

[Poet]

yikes. . . so his own coach doesn't think he has grit and blue collar work ethic? damn. . .

This isn't by negative implication, boys.

[OrangeHoof]

Sure, when we’re denigrating Kubiak’s coaching the hot mess talent doesn’t matter but when we’re defending the hot mess talent it’s the other hot mess talents fault.

And Keenum is not anything but a dink and dunk QB, always has been, I hope we’re not saying otherwise.

Keenum does not have the big league home run arm, if that's what you mean by "dink and dunk". Schaub was a true "dink and dunk" who lost his arm strength and began telegraphing his throws. I think Keenum is a smarter and more competent quarterback than when he first arrived in the NFL. I hope we're not saying otherwise. Else, you did not watch him with the Vikings last year.

[slim]

Or maybe he thinks he’d sell more jerseys in New York and is more of a media darling. Who knows what his motivation for saying that was. I certainly don’t.

When I first heard I thought maybe he was trying to do him a solid by steering Clev another direction. Like, ain't nobody gonna flourish in that shitty org.

IDK

[slim]

This isn't by negative implication, boys.

Yeah, it kinda is

[OrangeHoof]

That’s interesting because he knows Rosen pretty well. His daughter and Rosen are really good friends and by all accounts he likes Rosen.

I think Mora said this because he knows Rosen would prefer not to play in a shithole like Cleveland. Rosen was making noises about staying at UCLA because Cleveland had the first pick.

[Jsteve01]

Sure, when we’re denigrating Kubiak’s coaching the hot mess talent doesn’t matter but when we’re defending the hot mess talent it’s the other hot mess talents fault.

And Keenum is not anything but a dink and dunk QB, always has been, I hope we’re not saying otherwise.

Keenum does not have the big league home run arm, if that's what you mean by "dink and dunk". Schaub was a true "dink and dunk" who lost his arm strength and began telegraphing his throws. I think Keenum is a smarter and more competent quarterback than when he first arrived in the NFL. I hope we're not saying otherwise. Else, you did not watch him with the Vikings last year.

We can talk about arm strength all we want. But there have been plenty of good quarterbacks who had mediocre arms. The big thing for me that stood out last year was his completion percentage under pressure. It was top 10 since 2009 and it was actually better than Brady. He led the league in that statistic. So given the fact that we put out a shity offensive line since the mid-2000s. That's a stat that speaks to me. Trotting rookies out behind feeble offensive lines takes David cars and Tim couches and makes them into busts.

[slim]

I think Mora said this because he knows Rosen would prefer not to play in a shithole like Cleveland. Rosen was making noises about staying at UCLA because Cleveland had the first pick.

That was my first impression, but after thinking it through, I think it was a big middle finger to Josh Cutler Rosen

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

This isn't by negative implication, boys.

No it’s not, but it does seem as though he’s clearly saying Darnold is a harder worker.

[Poet]

Yeah, it kinda is

If he wanted to bury his QB he could have buried his QB. He was highlighting what would make them fits. One could easily construe this to say that Mora was saying Darnold can't handle big pressure and isn't built for it, i.e. mentally weak.

We can take these sentences and do whatever we want with them. None's more accurate than the other, but if we are to take your avenue, we have to believe Mora Jr. wanted to bury his QB. What is the basis for that statement? It's hard to think he would bury him by then following it up with a sentiment that the New York teams should take him.

[Simple Jaded]

Keenum does not have the big league home run arm, if that's what you mean by "dink and dunk". Schaub was a true "dink and dunk" who lost his arm strength and began telegraphing his throws. I think Keenum is a smarter and more competent quarterback than when he first arrived in the NFL. I hope we're not saying otherwise. Else, you did not watch him with the Vikings last year.

Yeah, went back and watched every game he played with Vikes, he’s not worth the brain damage of this argument.

[Simple Jaded]

Mora fault out said he’d take Rosen over Darnold.

[Poet]

Mora fault out said he’d take Rosen over Darnold.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/03/nfl-draft-jim-mora-sam-darnold-josh-rosen-ucla-browns

We've now reached the point where a bad comment by a head coach is being used as a way to detract from a QB that the board doesn't like.

This is what we've become, Jaded.

[Poet]

Yeah, went back and watched every game he played with Vikes, he’s not worth the brain damage of this argument.

One years wonders whose one year isn't that wonderful are so in right now.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

It could be he thinks both are hard workers, but he finds Darnold to be exceptional in his work ethic. I didn’t take it as if he was saying he thinks Rosen sucks. I’ve heard him discuss Rosen in an interview. He thinks highly of him.

[Simple Jaded]

One years wonders whose one year isn't that wonderful are so in right now.

You’d swear on your life that we’re actually talking about Tony Romo and not Case Keenum.

Seriously people, go watch all the WR and RB screens, short crossing patterns in the Vikings play calling. This is the offense that had everyone (including/especially Orange Hoof) bitching about Kubiak for two seasons, the Broncos did not sign CK to run an Air Coryell.

This dude is limited, he’s a backup talent, getting smarter doesn’t change a ******* thing. He’s a backup talent.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/03/nfl-draft-jim-mora-sam-darnold-josh-rosen-ucla-browns

We've now reached the point where a bad comment by a head coach is being used as a way to detract from a QB that the board doesn't like.

This is what we've become, Jaded.

Saying the board doesn’t like him is inaccurate. I believe as a whole the board likes him, save a few.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

You’d swear on your life that we’re actually talking about Tony Romo and not Case Keenum.

Seriously people, go watch all the WR and RB screens, short crossing patterns in the Vikings play calling. This is the offense that had everyone (including/especially Orange Hoof) bitching about Kubiak for two seasons, the Broncos did not sign CK to run an Air Coryell.

This dude is limited, he’s a backup talent, getting smarter doesn’t change a ******* thing. He’s a backup talent.

Yet some are convinced we're not taking a qb.

[Simple Jaded]

It could be he thinks both are hard workers, but he finds Darnold to be exceptional in his work ethic. I didn’t take it as if he was saying he thinks Rosen sucks. I’ve heard him discuss Rosen in an interview. He thinks highly of him.

Look at their fundamentals, Rosen is so far ahead of the other QB’s it’s laughable to suggest he doesn’t have a great work ethic.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

If he was picking number one, as the Browns, and not in a vacuum, he'd take Darnold.

Sounds like he thinks their personalities are so different that different settings would be better for them.

I'll take the guy who can survive the pressure and scrutiny of New York.

The pressure of New York is nothing compared to the pressure of having to play in JFE’s and now PFM’s shadow. I think Rosen or Mayfield are best equipped for that. The other two may melt like TS.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Look at their fundamentals, Rosen is so far ahead of the other QB’s it’s laughable to suggest he doesn’t have a great work ethic.

I’m not suggesting he doesn’t have a strong work ethic

[Simple Jaded]

Yet some are convinced we're not taking a qb.

I doubt they will, if they do it’s probably Barf Mayfield because he’s most similar to Barf Keenum.

[Simple Jaded]

I’m not suggesting he doesn’t have a strong work ethic

I know.

You wanna go, pretty boy?

[Poet]

The pressure of New York is nothing compared to the pressure of having to play in JFE’s and now PFM’s shadows. I think Rosen or Mayfield are best equipped for that. The other two may melt like TS.

The pressure is the pressure - if Darnold doesn't have the mental makeup for either spot he will crumble once he brings about any expectations to Cleveland. I think Darnold is mentally sufficient and not a wilting fiower - I'm just making the point.

[Poet]

Saying the board doesn’t like him is inaccurate. I believe as a whole the board likes him, save a few.

Oh baby boy...there's but four of us vs. the world. Don't kid yourself. I don't want you to run out there and get gunned down. We can't lose you, Al. NOT YOU!!!!1

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I doubt they will, if they do it’s probably Barf Mayfield because he’s most similar to Barf Keenum.

Because a journalist said so? That makes no sense to me. “We need to draft a qb at 5 who is a stop gap replication.”

I don’t buy it. It sounds like a smoke screen a journalist bit hook, line, and sinker.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I know.

You wanna go, pretty boy?

Sure, why not. There’s nothing on tv

[Hawgdriver]

yikes. . . so his own coach doesn't think he has grit and blue collar work ethic? damn. . .

I'd tell my coach I'm not really Cleveland material too.

[Simple Jaded]

Sure, why not. There’s nothing on tv

I just bought The Last Jedi. I’m excited.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'd tell my coach I'm not really Cleveland material too.
There’s also that.

[Simple Jaded]

Because a journalist said so? That makes no sense to me. “We need to draft a qb at 5 who is a stop gap replication.”

I don’t buy it. It sounds like a smoke screen a journalist bit hook, line, and sinker.

That’s where I getting that from but my cynical side wants to believe it.

[OrangeHoof]

I'd tell my coach I'm not really Cleveland material too.

Truly great quarterbacks never duck a challenge and always agree to play for the team that drafts them. Isn't that right, John? Eli?

[dogfish]

I'd tell my coach I'm not really Cleveland material too.

why?

[dogfish]

I just bought The Last Jedi. I’m excited.

oh, snap! best watch yo ass if falco sees this shit. . . .

[Nomad]

I think Mora said this because he knows Rosen would prefer not to play in a shithole like Cleveland. Rosen was making noises about staying at UCLA because Cleveland had the first pick.

If Rosen is "that good", Cleveland would be a perfect place to prove himself. But, Rosen will be like a fish out of water, and flop regardless where he goes.

[Poet]

If Rosen is "that good", Cleveland would be a perfect place to prove himself. But, Rosen will be like a fish out of water, and flop regardless where he goes.

Just say you don't like him because he's a liberal, good god.

[dogfish]

Just say you don't like him because he's a liberal, good god.

is that why you like him so much?

[Poet]

is that why you like him so much?

No. I like him because he's cerebral, a polished passer, has mobility, and is hyper competitive.

[Hawgdriver]

why?

Because my career would be better served elsewhere. Endorsements, winning chances, etc.

[Poet]

Because my career would be better served elsewhere. Endorsements, winning chances, etc.

Because you can be a god tier QB but if you have nothing around you it doesn't matter. Because if the owner is a moron, the front office is always in disarray, and the HC sucks, you're not going to ever get support. Because some jobs are too big for one man playing in a 50-some-odd-man-roster.

Because, Cleveland is just an awful place and the country would be best served to have it purged from existence.

[dogfish]

Because my career would be better served elsewhere. Endorsements, winning chances, etc.

you really think the jets are in better position to win than the browns? every team who drafts high was bad last year-- it's not like he's going to avoid cleveland, and end up going to philly, minnesota, pittsburgh, or new england. . . how is cleveland worse than buffalo, or miami? the browns actually brought in a very capable football guy as the new GM-- with their existing young talent, the vets they've acquired this off-season, and a boat load of valuable draft picks, they're in position to put themselves towards the forefront of rising young organizations. . . a couple of good drafts can get them right where the jags are now. . . aside from arguably the giants, i don't see how going to one of the other teams with high picks puts him in a situation that's noticeably superior to cleveland. . . or do you believe in curses?

[Poet]

you really think the jets are in better position to win than the browns? every team who drafts high was bad last year-- it's not like he's going to avoid cleveland, and end up going to philly, minnesota, pittsburgh, or new england. . . how is cleveland worse than buffalo, or miami? the browns actually brought in a very capable football guy as the new GM-- with their existing young talent, the vets they've acquired this off-season, and a boat load of valuable draft picks, they're in position to put themselves towards the forefront of rising young organizations. . . a couple of good drafts can get them right where the jags are now. . . aside from arguably the giants, i don't see how going to one of the other teams with high picks puts him in a situation that's noticeably superior to cleveland. . . or do you believe in curses?

The Jets have won a playoff game in recent memory. They will always have some appeal just in location alone. Cleveland has neither of those things. Cleveland has brought in capable football people before and they've failed. They've failed for a generation. We have seen Cleveland with a ton of picks before. By virtue of not being Cleveland, all other teams are better positioned to win.

[Nomad]

Lebron James made Cleveland Cavs great. If Rosen is supposedly 'that good', he can be the "Lebron" of the Browns.

[Poet]

Lebron James made Cleveland Cavs great. If Rosen is supposedly 'that good', he can be the "Lebron" of the Browns.

This is the worst argument ever. LBJ is arguably the GOAT. That would mean Rosen would have to be amonst the most elite of elite under your analysis.

This is why your takes on Rosen are so awful - they're not based in reality. It pains me to say this but it's true.

[Nomad]

This is the worst argument ever. LBJ is arguably the GOAT. That would mean Rosen would have to be amonst the most elite of elite under your analysis.

This is why your takes on Rosen are so awful - they're not based in reality. It pains me to say this but it's true.

It is a very good example. You have a great player going to a supposedly awful town, and making them great. The way you paint Rosen, then he seems like the ideal player to do the same. Is he not up to the challenge? You know Rosen is not as good as you say.

[Hawgdriver]

you really think the jets are in better position to win than the browns? every team who drafts high was bad last year-- it's not like he's going to avoid cleveland, and end up going to philly, minnesota, pittsburgh, or new england. . . how is cleveland worse than buffalo, or miami? the browns actually brought in a very capable football guy as the new GM-- with their existing young talent, the vets they've acquired this off-season, and a boat load of valuable draft picks, they're in position to put themselves towards the forefront of rising young organizations. . . a couple of good drafts can get them right where the jags are now. . . aside from arguably the giants, i don't see how going to one of the other teams with high picks puts him in a situation that's noticeably superior to cleveland. . . or do you believe in curses?

Because Vegas has them at 4.5 wins next year, the lowest in the NFL? Plus the market. Perhaps staff and philosophy?

Not dramatically lower than Jet's 5.0 wins, or Giants 6.0 wins, or Buffalo's 6.5 wins, but it's something.

[Poet]

It is a very good example. You have a great player going to a supposedly awful town, and making them great. The way you paint Rosen, then he seems like the ideal player to do the same. Is he not up to the challenge? You know Rosen is not as good as you say.

It's a horrible example. You have a great prospect going to a city where everything fails. The FA periods usually fail. The drafts are typically bad. The coaching is bad. One player doesn't fix that. The way I paint Rosen is that he's an excellent prospect worth taking - not a lock for top three QB of all the time. The fact that you have to strawman anyone who has a positive thing to say about the guy is sad, it really is. If I stick to my guns and say he's worth taking, you say that I'm saying he's not as good as I think he is (literally a strawman) while saying that he has to live up to being a top five QB of all-time. It's an absurd argument.

[Nomad]

It's a horrible example. You have a great prospect going to a city where everything fails. The FA periods usually fail. The drafts are typically bad. The coaching is bad. One player doesn't fix that. The way I paint Rosen is that he's an excellent prospect worth taking - not a lock for top three QB of all the time. The fact that you have to strawman anyone who has a positive thing to say about the guy is sad, it really is. If I stick to my guns and say he's worth taking, you say that I'm saying he's not as good as I think he is (literally a strawman) while saying that he has to live up to being a top five QB of all-time. It's an absurd argument.

He's not up to the challenge.

#softhands
#needseverythinggiventohim
#enjoyswearingtheredjerseyinpractice

[Poet]

He's not up to the challenge.

#softhands
#needseverythinggiventohim
#enjoyswearingtheredjerseyinpractice

He's not up to the challenge of fixing a franchise that most have deemed to be unfixable. That's a great argument.

[dogfish]

Because Vegas has them at 4.5 wins next year, the lowest in the NFL? Plus the market. Perhaps staff and philosophy?

Not dramatically lower than Jet's 5.0 wins, or Giants 6.0 wins, or Buffalo's 6.5 wins, but it's something.

meh. . . i think .5 wins is negligible. . . more so, vegas odds are calculated to induce betting, not to act as an accurate predictor of success. . . cleveland's odds almost certainly reflect a lack of public confidence given 1-31 the last two years. . . i personally don't see any football reasons why that situation is any more difficult than the other bottom-feeders, who don't have myles garrett and two top-five picks on hand. . . JMO, obviously. . . but i do believe that darnold is headed to the land of cleves, and i'll be rooting for him to get them turned around. . .

[dogfish]

He's not up to the challenge.

#softhands
#needseverythinggiventohim
#enjoyswearingtheredjerseyinpractice

kingsley, look what you've done! you're driving nomad to hashtag. . . abandon this madness before it is too late, i beg of you!

[Poet]

kingsley, look what you've done! you're driving nomad to hashtag. . . abandon this madness before it is too late, i beg of you!

This one's not on me.

[Cugel]

If he wanted to bury his QB he could have buried his QB. He was highlighting what would make them fits. One could easily construe this to say that Mora was saying Darnold can't handle big pressure and isn't built for it, i.e. mentally weak.

We can take these sentences and do whatever we want with them. None's more accurate than the other, but if we are to take your avenue, we have to believe Mora Jr. wanted to bury his QB. What is the basis for that statement? It's hard to think he would bury him by then following it up with a sentiment that the New York teams should take him.

He got fired from UCLA. He blames Rosen pretty clearly. He's Mora and is lashing out at everybody on his way out of town like a snarling wolverine. Everybody on the radio and in the media is saying this is extraordinary throwing shade on his own player.

It doesn't matter how you parse the statement. Every football coach knows exactly what the coach is supposed to say in this situation, and he didn't say it. He preferred another prospect to his own QB who is considered the top prospect in the draft from a simple "is he ready to play QB in the NFL" standpoint.

That's all he is supposed to say. He's not supposed to tell the truth! Or give some kind of nuanced statement, or anything like that. He's portrayed in the media as some kind of ungrateful turd who just pissed all over his own player.

And now people wonder whether he's trying to steer teams away from Rosen, OTHER than Cleveland, despite what he said at the end.

[Poet]

He got fired from UCLA. He blames Rosen pretty clearly. He's Mora and is lashing out at everybody on his way out of town like a snarling wolverine. Everybody on the radio and in the media is saying this is extraordinary throwing shade on his own player.

It doesn't matter how you parse the statement. Every football coach knows exactly what the coach is supposed to say in this situation, and he didn't say it. He preferred another prospect to his own QB who is considered the top prospect in the draft from a simple "is he ready to play QB in the NFL" standpoint.

That's all he is supposed to say. He's not supposed to tell the truth! Or give some kind of nuanced statement, or anything like that. He's portrayed in the media as some kind of ungrateful turd who just pissed all over his own player.

And now people wonder whether he's trying to steer teams away from Rosen, OTHER than Cleveland, despite what he said at the end.

He just pumped up Rosen the other day on ESPN.

[Cugel]

You’d swear on your life that we’re actually talking about Tony Romo and not Case Keenum.

Seriously people, go watch all the WR and RB screens, short crossing patterns in the Vikings play calling. This is the offense that had everyone (including/especially Orange Hoof) bitching about Kubiak for two seasons, the Broncos did not sign CK to run an Air Coryell.

This dude is limited, he’s a backup talent, getting smarter doesn’t change a ******* thing. He’s a backup talent.

What kind of offense do you THINK the Broncos want to run this year, after bringing Kubiak back to Denver to serve as "Senior Personnel Advisor" and general offensive talent evaluator for Elway?

That would be the Kubiak offense. The dink and dunk and run the ball over and over again. Short crossing routes and bubble screens.

The Kubiak offense has resulted in all three Denver SB championships. Elway wants to run it, which is why their candidates were K. Shanahan and Joseph.

They never made it work because their OL was garbage, they never had a dynamic running back and their QBs were rock bottom of the entire NFL. Now they have Keenum who was a top 10 QB in most categories last year, and they want to run an offense more like what the Vikings did. Not like what Mike McCoy was running last season.

[Poet]

The Kubiak offense resulted in the third SB?

[Cugel]

He just pumped up Rosen the other day on ESPN.

You fail again because you are using actual logic, instead of football logic. If you take his entire statement, and interpret it fairly and in context, you can see that he was careful to nuance it.

But, nobody in football or the football media in this country ever, ever does nuance. They always take the most provocative thing anybody says and take it completely out of context and spin it.

This is so non-controversial that they act this way, that everybody in the NFL has learned to talk in nonsense jargon that says nothing, while remaining generally polite. Bill Belichick has mastered this non-responsive answer: "we're characterizing it as a lower body injury. That would be an injury in the general region of the lower 1/2 of his body."

Everybody who has spent years in that world knows the rules, and he didn't follow the script. That is what sent everybody commenting.

So, stop taking it out of context and using logic instead of football logic.

[Cugel]

What Mora did in terms of football world logic and the over-hyped reaction would go something like this, if translated into actual English:

NFL talking guy on ESPN: "OMG! Did Mora just damn his QB Rosen with faint praise? He knows this is right before the NFL draft when draft hype is at it's absolute maximum. Any college coach interviewed during this time, whose star QB is supposed to be potentially the #1 overall pick of the draft is supposed to say only that "my QB is a combination of John Elway and Jesus Christ because he routinely walks on water."

Anything less than this is instantly translated into: "I can't say anything negative about my player, but boy, oh, boy! Watch out! I'm just sayin' if it was me, and I was Cleveland I'd think long and hard before I spent the #1 overall pick on my guy! They should definitely take somebody else."

You can say this is unfair or unrealistic, but that is exactly what they are all doing now. Paranoia is so deep in football at the highest ranks, that antennae are always quivering in the wind, and everybody is keenly trying to read the tea leaves of every statement. By anybody.

Ever try and translate an NFL coach's public statement to anybody who doesn't follow NFL football, like some woman who doesn't care about football? Try it some time. :laugh:

The NFL press statement has it's own weird logic, and the actual dictionary meaning of words isn't what everybody is judging. They're judging by the standard of "we all know what that innocuous sounding statement really means, because we all know exactly what the coach is supposed to say in this situation, because it's typecast. But, he didn't say it, despite knowing what to say, so that must be a signal! He must mean the opposite by that!"

[aberdien]

Seeing Nomad #murderdance all over King is a sight to behold.

[Cugel]

The Kubiak offense resulted in the third SB?

It was the offense they used. Personally, I'd say it was less than helpful, since Peyton threw for 120 yards, zero TDs and 1 pick in the SB. But, that would not be Elway's characterization.

It's a system designed to be successful with a less than Hall of Fame QB, as opposed to the systems used by Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.

That's a good idea because the chances of the Broncos getting another QB like Peyton Manning anytime soon, no matter what draft pick they might have, this year or any year, are essentially zero. So low that it doesn't matter. It's not worth talking about.

You expect that some guy you draft is going to become a Hall of Famer? Because that's what kind of QB is able to just dictate games on their own and we all know who they are too:

Peyton, Brady, Roethlisberger, Rogers, Brees. Same guys for an entire decade. Now some new QBs are entering the scene, Wentz, Goff, Newton, Ryan. Maybe some others will get there too, and probably some we now think of as border-line elite will be considered mediocre in 3 years time as well. My guess is Cam Newton actually.

So, if your QB is going to be second tier at best, realistically, then design a system for duffers. Like a very forgiving golf driver with a big sweet spot. Ever try driving an old style wooden club? Like my grandfather had back in the 50's? Sweet spot? Maybe theoretically there was a sweet spot, but it's damn hard to find. A pro could do it, but you're not a pro.

Same thing here. Broncos are designing an offense that a less than elite QB can run because they aren't getting an elite one.

[Hawgdriver]

meh. . . i think .5 wins is negligible. . . more so, vegas odds are calculated to induce betting, not to act as an accurate predictor of success. . . cleveland's odds almost certainly reflect a lack of public confidence given 1-31 the last two years. . . i personally don't see any football reasons why that situation is any more difficult than the other bottom-feeders, who don't have myles garrett and two top-five picks on hand. . . JMO, obviously. . . but i do believe that darnold is headed to the land of cleves, and i'll be rooting for him to get them turned around. . .

Same. I'd prefer a QB that would embrace that challenge, but you don't get your second contract based on degree of difficulty...just speculation. I have very mixed feelings on Rosen as you can tell.

[Poet]

Same. I'd prefer a QB that would embrace that challenge, but you don't get your second contract based on degree of difficulty...just speculation. I have very mixed feelings on Rosen as you can tell.

Elway didn't embrace that challenge. I'd prefer the guys who play in reality - just about every QB embraced that challenge when drafted there.

[dogfish]

I have very mixed feelings on Rosen as you can tell.

me too. . . honestly though, i mostly just want us to take mayfield so we can watch MO's year-long, continuous, slow motion meltdown. . .

[Nomad]

me too. . . honestly though, i mostly just want us to take mayfield so we can watch MO's year-long, continuous, slow motion meltdown. . .

He can buy a Mayfield karate thingy for his head. :D

[Poet]

me too. . . honestly though, i mostly just want us to take mayfield so we can watch MO's year-long, continuous, slow motion meltdown. . .

I was skeptical the guy at first...but I've been won over. If we don't take a QB, I'm hoping we take the CB.

[dogfish]

He can buy a Mayfield karate thingy for his head. :D

seriously, how f***ing awesome would that be?

[Simple Jaded]

The Kubiak offense resulted in the third SB?

3 SB’s with this offense, it’s science.

Btw, those SB’s had Hall of Fame talent at QB, something Cugel wants to ignore.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Side note...I think Cleveland could surprise some folks. 6 losses by less than a TD with no Gordon and no QB to speak of. They have added talent, have Gordon hopefully clean and have a few high picks. 6 or 7 isn't impossible. Though they need to replace the LT and Hyde is a downgrade at RB.

[Simple Jaded]

Side note...I think Cleveland could surprise some folks. 6 losses by less than a TD with no Gordon and no QB to speak of. They have added talent, have Gordon hopefully clean and have a few high picks. 6 or 7 isn't impossible. Though they need to replace the LT and Hyde is a downgrade at RB.

I still think Hue Jackson can coach, he’s got Todd Haley as OC. Not a big Greggggg Williams fans though, but if they draft Chubb even he can’t **** up that defense.

[Cugel]

3 SB’s with this offense, it’s science.

Btw, those SB’s had Hall of Fame talent at QB, something Cugel wants to ignore.

If you think Peyton Manning 2015 was playing at a Hall of Fame level when he threw for 125 yards, zero TDs and 1 Int, then sure.

But, you're not getting a Hall of Fame QB in this draft anyway, so that pretty academic. In fact, the only QB the Broncos can draft at #5 without moving up is probably Josh Rosen, and for some reason he's falling down the boards - if reports are to be believed.

He's the guy who falls. There's always one who doesn't get drafted where expected.

But, unless you want him, there's no QB on the boards at #5 since Darnold, Allen and Mayfield will be gone by #4, probably at #3 to the Jets.

[Cugel]

I still think Hue Jackson can coach, he’s got Todd Haley as OC. Not a big Greggggg Williams fans though, but if they draft Chubb even he can’t **** up that defense.

Supposedly, they want Barkley. In fact, the Browns were reported to have wanted to draft Barkley #1 overall, thinking they could get their QB at #4, but the Jets move up to #2 scotched that plan. They could and probably will take Barkley at #4 though.

That means Darnold, Allen go 1-2, and Mayfield #3 to the Jets. The Browns take Barkley at #4 leaving the Broncos to either take Rosen, if they want him, or else take Nelson or Chubb.

[OrangeHoof]

Cleveland is starting from 0-16, unlike the Jets, Niners, Giants, etc. They are deeper in the hole than the others.

Ask Matthew Stafford how much he enjoys helping Detroit out of 0-16.

[TXBRONC]

It could be he thinks both are hard workers, but he finds Darnold to be exceptional in his work ethic. I didn’t take it as if he was saying he thinks Rosen sucks. I’ve heard him discuss Rosen in an interview. He thinks highly of him.

Bob Papa and Ross Tucker were just talking about Mora's comments about Rosen. They commented that Mora indicated that Rosen has the talent to be very good but that he isn't always focused on football. There is also the rumor that Rosen is difficult to work with.

[TXBRONC]

me too. . . honestly though, i mostly just want us to take mayfield so we can watch MO's year-long, continuous, slow motion meltdown. . .

I don't if it will be in slow motion, but suspect it would be epic.

[MOtorboat]

me too. . . honestly though, i mostly just want us to take mayfield so we can watch MO's year-long, continuous, slow motion meltdown. . .

Why do you love losing?

[Rick]

1. Their QBOTF if they are confident it's the one they want.

Looking at recent experience, if they are confident it is the guy they want they might be wise to just go in another direction :)

[Rick]

I won't kick the dog or anything if Nelson is selected, can always use a surplus of OL talent (especially on this team).

That said though, is McGovern a starter? I don't mean is he the best of the worst defacto starter, is he a true legit starter. If so...go Barkley and get another playmaker on this offense.

[dogfish]

Why do you love losing?

it would be worth it if you wear the karate kid bandana!

[MOtorboat]

it would be worth it if you wear the karate kid bandana!

That ain't gonna happen.

[dogfish]

That ain't gonna happen.

oh, it'll happen. . . just you wait!

[TXBRONC]

oh, it'll happen. . . just you wait!

I don't why he's so against Mayfield, literally Mayfield is someone he could see eye to eye with.

[TXBRONC]

I won't kick the dog or anything if Nelson is selected, can always use a surplus of OL talent (especially on this team).

That said though, is McGovern a starter? I don't mean is he the best of the worst defacto starter, is he a true legit starter. If so...go Barkley and get another playmaker on this offense.

This draft is pretty deep so why not go Nick Chubb the running back out of UGA.

[Rick]

I am actually torn.

Is Barkley the next Elliot? That is special talent.

On the flip side, I think Henderson on our own team has special talent...potential...

[CoachChaz]

I am actually torn.

Is Barkley the next Elliot? That is special talent.

On the flip side, I think Henderson on our own team has special talent...potential...

Is Elliot special behind...oh, let's say...the 2016 or 2017 Broncos line?

[Rick]

I think he is. Maybe not lead the league special but he still is an elite talent.

[Cugel]

Interesting Mock Draft from By R.J. White
CBS Sports NFL Writer (https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/mock-draft/expert/rj-white/)


Round 1
1. Cleveland Browns

(0-16) Josh Allen, QB, Wyoming: After Sam Darnold's pro day, where Jimmy Haslam was spotted chatting up Darnold's parents in the stands, everyone pivoted to making Darnold the No. 1 pick. After Allen's pro day, which Haslam also attended, many pivoted to making Allen the No. 1 pick. I'm going to stick with what I have, thinking Allen is the preferred choice for the Browns at this point.
2. New York Giants

(3-13) Sam Darnold, QB, Southern California: I've previously had the Giants trading down from this pick so the Bills could move up and take a quarterback, but it's starting to sound like the Giants would grab Darnold if he's available. Though that's not an instantly gratifying pick for Giants fans, I believe it's the best course of action for the future of the franchise.
3. New York Jets (from Indianapolis)

(5-11) Josh Rosen, QB, UCLA: The trade-up for the Jets was all about getting into position for a quarterback, and if they can find a franchise signal-caller here, it's well worth the overpay to move up a couple spots. Walter Football's Charlie Campbell compares Rosen to Jay Cutler, a quarterback with which new Jets offensive coordinator Jeremy Bates has plenty of experience. Rosen could be the best fit for the Jets moving forward.
4. Buffalo Bills (from Houston)

(9-7) Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma: I wouldn't be shocked if Denver takes Mayfield should he be on the board at No. 5, so here's where the Bills have to target if they're going to get their guy. In this scenario, I have the Bills sacrificing their 2019 first-round pick to move up, and it might take even more than that if they buy the Broncos could be interested in making a deal with the Browns themselves. Throw in Buffalo's fourth-rounder this year and call it an overpay, but the Bills get their franchise QB.
5. Denver Broncos

(5-11) Saquon Barkley, RB, Penn State: The Broncos land Case Keenum as their starter at QB, and it's a good thing, as the top four names at the position could be off the board by the time they pick. I like adding Quenton Nelson as the final piece of the offensive line puzzle, but with the Jared Veldheer trade strengthening the unit at right tackle, I'm going to pivot to the Broncos taking the player many people have as their No. 1 overall prospect this year in Barkley. Sure, the team likes Devontae Booker, but Barkley looks like a generational talent, and adding him and a legitimate quarterback in one offseason could put the Broncos back in the playoff hunt.

I think Elway likes Allen and Mayfield, but if both are gone by #5 (very likely) then they have to choose either Josh Rosen (who appears to be sliding down out of the top 10), or else best player available - which is Barkley or Chubb, and since you need Offense more than defense, Barkley.

As for the rest of this: I think the Browns take Darnold, I think the Giants take Allen, the Jets take Mayfield, and the Browns at #4 take Barkley. That leaves Chubb or Nelson for the Broncos. They don't want Rosen, and it appears Rosen is the guy who slides this year.

Just like DeShaun Watson fell to #12 to the Texans. He fell out of the top 10. Why? Nobody can articulate a reason now, a year later. But he did. Rosen will too.

[slim]

That ain't gonna happen.

Give me your address. I have a something I want to send you, MOsephson

[MOtorboat]

Give me your address. I have a something I want to send you, MOsephson

You can send the dick pics electronically you sick *******.

[slim]

You can send the dick pics electronically you sick *******.

Grow up.

I am above this kind of teenager/lockeroom nonsense!!

[BroncoJoe]

Grow up.

I am above this kind of teenager/lockeroom nonsense!!

I think you should grab MO by the p***y!

[MOtorboat]

Grow up.

I am above this kind of teenager/lockeroom nonsense!!

HAHAHAHAHA!

No you're not.

[dogfish]

Interesting Mock Draft from By R.J. White
CBS Sports NFL Writer (https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/mock-draft/expert/rj-white/)


i believe that would be denver's dream scenario. . .

[dogfish]

Grow up.

I am above this kind of teenager/lockeroom nonsense!!

the hell you say. . .

[OrangeHoof]

Just like DeShaun Watson fell to #12 to the Texans. He fell out of the top 10. Why? Nobody can articulate a reason now, a year later.

I can tell you why. 1) He's black. 2) He's a couple of inches shorter than the ideal QB so he has to find lanes. 3) He weighs less than the ideal QB making some question his ability to take a hit. 4) He had a spate of interceptions early in his senior year.

The one thing I saw in Watson that I didn't see in the other QBs in the 2017 draft was that Watson just wins. Whatever it takes, he finds a way to win and I think Houston now realizes they made a good deal. And to think KC passed on him for Mahomes.

[Simple Jaded]

If you think Peyton Manning 2015 was playing at a Hall of Fame level when he threw for 125 yards, zero TDs and 1 Int, then sure.

But, you're not getting a Hall of Fame QB in this draft anyway, so that pretty academic. In fact, the only QB the Broncos can draft at #5 without moving up is probably Josh Rosen, and for some reason he's falling down the boards - if reports are to be believed.

He's the guy who falls. There's always one who doesn't get drafted where expected.

But, unless you want him, there's no QB on the boards at #5 since Darnold, Allen and Mayfield will be gone by #4, probably at #3 to the Jets.
Make no mistake about it, there’s probably 15-or-so draftable QB’s I’d take over CK, but Rosen is the single best passer to come out in years. He’s infinitely closer to the HoF than anything Denver has atm.

Sure, he’s not a tiny, rag-armed undrafted scrub talent coming from a garbage college spread, but hey ... nobody’s perfect.

Btw, you clearly don’t follow the NFL draft, Rosen won’t get past Jets, so stay in your lane big shifter.

[Simple Jaded]

I can tell you why. 1) He's black. 2) He's a couple of inches shorter than the ideal QB so he has to find lanes. 3) He weighs less than the ideal QB making some question his ability to take a hit. 4) He had a spate of interceptions early in his senior year.

The one thing I saw in Watson that I didn't see in the other QBs in the 2017 draft was that Watson just wins. Whatever it takes, he finds a way to win and I think Houston now realizes they made a good deal. And to think KC passed on him for Mahomes.

He comes from a college spread, period.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

We'll find out in a few weeks...

[Simple Jaded]

I won't kick the dog or anything if Nelson is selected, can always use a surplus of OL talent (especially on this team).

That said though, is McGovern a starter? I don't mean is he the best of the worst defacto starter, is he a true legit starter. If so...go Barkley and get another playmaker on this offense.
If Paradis is in line for a 5 year/$55 M contract in ‘19, the new going rate for run-of-the-mill C’s, McGovern better damn well be the ‘19 starter at C.

I say **** it and make him the starter this season and sell high on PFF poster boy Paradis.

[Poet]

It's going to be a sad day.

[Simple Jaded]

I hope Rosen is dropping, trade back with Buffalo/Miami and still get Rosen.

[Simple Jaded]

It's going to be a sad day.

You wanna good cry? Look at these numbers.

https://overthecap.com/position/center

They found Paradis in the 6th round, find him again.

[Poet]

You wanna good cry? Look at these numbers.

https://overthecap.com/position/center

They found Paradis in the 6th round, find him again.

Brother, we have to keep the good players we draft. We're an average drafting team.

[Simple Jaded]

Brother, we have to keep the good players we draft. We're an average drafting team.

At $11/per? For a center?

You cray.

[Poet]

At $11/per? For a center?

You cray.

Oh just wait till we sign a guard in FA that's more costly and on par or better with Nelson, or future draft pick...

Do you see where I'm going with this? It's a two-for-one.

[Jsteve01]

me too. . . honestly though, i mostly just want us to take mayfield so we can watch MO's year-long, continuous, slow motion meltdown. . .

I was skeptical the guy at first...but I've been won over. If we don't take a QB, I'm hoping we take the CB.

I can't get on board with a cornerback at 5. Not when we have two very good cornerbacks on the roster already. I realize Everybody Plays a ton of nickel. But we at this point have one established very good pass-rusher. And we have multiple holes on the offensive line. Everybody says it, it's a huge cliche but I really do believe everything starts up front. Name me two players from the defensive backfield that won Super Bowls for the Giants when they played the Patriots. I know not many people can do that. But we can toss out Strahan, OC, tuck, kiwi, a great pass rush has more impact on defensive backfield than a great defensive backfield has on defensive line. It's been proven over and over and over again

[Jsteve01]

Interesting Mock Draft from By R.J. White
CBS Sports NFL Writer (https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/mock-draft/expert/rj-white/)


Round 1
1. Cleveland Browns

(0-16) Josh Allen, QB, Wyoming: After Sam Darnold's pro day, where Jimmy Haslam was spotted chatting up Darnold's parents in the stands, everyone pivoted to making Darnold the No. 1 pick. After Allen's pro day, which Haslam also attended, many pivoted to making Allen the No. 1 pick. I'm going to stick with what I have, thinking Allen is the preferred choice for the Browns at this point.
2. New York Giants

(3-13) Sam Darnold, QB, Southern California: I've previously had the Giants trading down from this pick so the Bills could move up and take a quarterback, but it's starting to sound like the Giants would grab Darnold if he's available. Though that's not an instantly gratifying pick for Giants fans, I believe it's the best course of action for the future of the franchise.
3. New York Jets (from Indianapolis)

(5-11) Josh Rosen, QB, UCLA: The trade-up for the Jets was all about getting into position for a quarterback, and if they can find a franchise signal-caller here, it's well worth the overpay to move up a couple spots. Walter Football's Charlie Campbell compares Rosen to Jay Cutler, a quarterback with which new Jets offensive coordinator Jeremy Bates has plenty of experience. Rosen could be the best fit for the Jets moving forward.
4. Buffalo Bills (from Houston)

(9-7) Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma: I wouldn't be shocked if Denver takes Mayfield should he be on the board at No. 5, so here's where the Bills have to target if they're going to get their guy. In this scenario, I have the Bills sacrificing their 2019 first-round pick to move up, and it might take even more than that if they buy the Broncos could be interested in making a deal with the Browns themselves. Throw in Buffalo's fourth-rounder this year and call it an overpay, but the Bills get their franchise QB.
5. Denver Broncos

(5-11) Saquon Barkley, RB, Penn State: The Broncos land Case Keenum as their starter at QB, and it's a good thing, as the top four names at the position could be off the board by the time they pick. I like adding Quenton Nelson as the final piece of the offensive line puzzle, but with the Jared Veldheer trade strengthening the unit at right tackle, I'm going to pivot to the Broncos taking the player many people have as their No. 1 overall prospect this year in Barkley. Sure, the team likes Devontae Booker, but Barkley looks like a generational talent, and adding him and a legitimate quarterback in one offseason could put the Broncos back in the playoff hunt.

I think Elway likes Allen and Mayfield, but if both are gone by #5 (very likely) then they have to choose either Josh Rosen (who appears to be sliding down out of the top 10), or else best player available - which is Barkley or Chubb, and since you need Offense more than defense, Barkley.

As for the rest of this: I think the Browns take Darnold, I think the Giants take Allen, the Jets take Mayfield, and the Browns at #4 take Barkley. That leaves Chubb or Nelson for the Broncos. They don't want Rosen, and it appears Rosen is the guy who slides this year.

Just like DeShaun Watson fell to #12 to the Texans. He fell out of the top 10. Why? Nobody can articulate a reason now, a year later. But he did. Rosen will too.

I was typing Watson last year. The thing is the issues with those guys are completely opposite. Watson is the consummate leader he has the intangibles. Unbelievable athletic ability the question for him was mechanics and accuracy. Roseanne on the other hand is extremely accurate has amazing mechanics and nobody certain about his intangibles. Honestly between the two who the guys want to go out and play for?

[Simple Jaded]

I think Chubb is a 4-3 DE, OLB would have to mean Edmunds, imo.

[Poet]

I was typing Watson last year. The thing is the issues with those guys are completely opposite. Watson is the consummate leader he has the intangibles. Unbelievable athletic ability the question for him was mechanics and accuracy. Roseanne on the other hand is extremely accurate has amazing mechanics and nobody certain about his intangibles. Honestly between the two who the guys want to go out and play for?

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2018/03/josh_rosen_and_baker_mayfield.html

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000918506/article/exucla-teammate-calls-josh-rosen-onceinamillennium-qb

He keeps being defended by his teammates. I'm sure guys in the NFL will be fine with playing for a QB who is a top talent.

[Simple Jaded]

Oh muh geeeeeeerd.

Trade back with Buffalo and get Rosen @ 12 and Will Henderson @ 22 ... kill the lights ... it’s boner time!

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I can't get on board with a cornerback at 5. Not when we have two very good cornerbacks on the roster already. I realize Everybody Plays a ton of nickel. But we at this point have one established very good pass-rusher. And we have multiple holes on the offensive line. Everybody says it, it's a huge cliche but I really do believe everything starts up front. Name me two players from the defensive backfield that won Super Bowls for the Giants when they played the Patriots. I know not many people can do that. But we can toss out Strahan, OC, tuck, kiwi, a great pass rush has more impact on defensive backfield than a great defensive backfield has on defensive line. It's been proven over and over and over again

We had Champ and Bly...and sucked.

[Jsteve01]

Oh muh geeeeeeerd.

Trade back with Buffalo and get Rosen @ 12 and Will Henderson @ 22 ... kill the lights ... it’s boner time!

I'm okay with that other than the fact that if one of the top four slides people are going to trade up into that 8 or 9 slot. But if you could guarantee me that we had those results I'd be okay with drafting Rosen at 12. You don't have the guaranteed money that you give to the top-10 pick. And you get a guy at guard who's a shade below Nelson in my opinion period and Edmunds over Chubb is completely acceptable with me. I think Edmunds may end up being a generational Talent. He scares me a little bit because he's 19 we're not sure what he's going to end up being and his instincts are a little bit suspect but yeah I'm okay with Edmunds at that slot

[Simple Jaded]

He isn’t getting passed Jets.

[Poet]

We had Champ and Bly...and sucked.

You gotta have some of both. It's why keeping an elite defense is so hard, you lose one or two pieces and it all goes downhill. :tsk:

[Simple Jaded]

It’s impossible to argue that the Broncos ‘15 defense carries that team to a SB win without those 3 CB’s.

[Poet]

It’s impossible to argue that the Broncos ‘15 defense carries that team to a SB win without those 3 CB’s.

That defense was so nasty and so complete, and it still wasn't an all-time great defense, it fell just short. That's how ******* great a defense has to be to win it all.

But the teams with the elite QB's don't have to be record breakers...hmm...yeah let's ******* draft a god damned guard. That'll ******* do it.

[Simple Jaded]

That defense was so nasty and so complete, and it still wasn't an all-time great defense, it fell just short. That's how ******* great a defense has to be to win it all.

But the teams with the elite QB's don't have to be record breakers...hmm...yeah let's ******* draft a god damned guard. That'll ******* do it.

Guard is the new Tackle.

[Poet]

Guard is the new Tackle.

More and more guards are getting big money deals - omg they're more important!!!111!! Man, you can get one every single offseason. Go out and find me a top notch QB? Nah. LT? Nah. Etc.

Let's go overdraft one! I'm just a grumpy ******* man. No one is more of a ******* than I.

[Jsteve01]

That defense was so nasty and so complete, and it still wasn't an all-time great defense, it fell just short. That's how ******* great a defense has to be to win it all.

But the teams with the elite QB's don't have to be record breakers...hmm...yeah let's ******* draft a god damned guard. That'll ******* do it.

Guard is the new Tackle. I still really like Crosby but I don't want we can take him with that high of a pick in the second. So you have to trade up

[Poet]

I love you JSteve.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

That defense was so nasty and so complete, and it still wasn't an all-time great defense, it fell just short. That's how ******* great a defense has to be to win it all.

But the teams with the elite QB's don't have to be record breakers...hmm...yeah let's ******* draft a god damned guard. That'll ******* do it.

OK...I'll bite. How did it fall short? Please take into consideration the NFLs rules added to promote offense in your answer.

[Poet]

OK...I'll bite. How did it fall short? Please take into consideration the NFLs rules added to promote offense in your answer.

I've only seen it listed in the top ten of all-time defenses once or twice. It falls short of other defenses statistically. The era argument is a good one though. Lord knows it's not the same era as the 2000's Ravens played in. :beer:

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I've only seen it listed in the top ten of all-time defenses once or twice. It falls short of other defenses statistically. The era argument is a good one though. Lord knows it's not the same era as the 2000's Ravens played in. :beer:

That's the exact reason why I personally put it top 3. Another reason is the constant pressure to perform. Say what ya want about Bmore in 2000...the offense was worlds ahead of ours. They just had a really bed stretch which skewed some #s...see weeks 5-9. Chicago could afford to gamble since the O could help. No such luxury in Denver.

[Rick]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/report-bills-trying-like-hell-to-trade-up-for-qb/ar-AAvo0TL?ocid=spartanntp

I would assume they are chasing the Giants pick at 2 or Browns at 4. Doubt they are going after our 5 pick because there is a very good reason to believe that a QB won't be available there. Unless they trade for 5, then turn that pick into 2 or 4.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

i believe that would be denver's dream scenario. . .
Stahp

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I've only seen it listed in the top ten of all-time defenses once or twice. It falls short of other defenses statistically. The era argument is a good one though. Lord knows it's not the same era as the 2000's Ravens played in. :beer:
That’s interesting, stats I saw showed it and Seattle of 2014 as the two best defenses of the last decade and on par with the Ravens, Bucs, and 85 Bears.

[Freyaka]

i believe that would be denver's dream scenario. . .

Absolutely. Man I'd love to have Barkley in Denver. A good RB can make a big difference. If we snag Barkley in the first, trade back in and grab Hernandez then this will be a vastly improved team IMO.

[dogfish]

Stahp

why?

[Poet]

Absolutely. Man I'd love to have Barkley in Denver. A good RB can make a big difference. If we snag Barkley in the first, trade back in and grab Hernandez then this will be a vastly improved team IMO.

(insert negative post).

(insert attempt to make light of it).

(insert hashtags)

Yeah!

[Cugel]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/report-bills-trying-like-hell-to-trade-up-for-qb/ar-AAvo0TL?ocid=spartanntp

I would assume they are chasing the Giants pick at 2 or Browns at 4. Doubt they are going after our 5 pick because there is a very good reason to believe that a QB won't be available there. Unless they trade for 5, then turn that pick into 2 or 4.

If the Bills want Josh Allen they would have to trade up to #2.

If they like Josh Rosen, he's likely to be available at #7.

He's sliding so the Giants probably won't take Rosen at #2. Most likely they stay put and take Josh Allen or Mayfield at #2 since Eli is running on fumes.

The Jets reportedly love Mayfield and moved ahead of the Broncos to make sure they get him at #3, so #3 is out.

The Browns at #4 would probably be willing to trade down, if they don't want to take Barkley. But, if Darnold is off the board to the Browns, the Giants take Allen and the Jets take Mayfield that only leaves Rosen.

And the Broncos are unlikely to take Rosen. I haven't seen any report that they really want him. Rather, Elway is supposed to like Allen and Mayfield (and they attended Darnold's pro-day just in case).

That leaves the Colts at #6. Obviously they don't need a QB and want to draft Chubb. He's likely to be on the board at #6 unless the Broncos take him.

That means Tampa Bay at #7 is the obvious trading spot since they still have Winston. If not, then the Bears at #8 since they just got Trubisky last year.


Bills general manager Brandon Beane "is trying like hell to get up and get a quarterback," another GM told Jason La Canfora of CBSSports.

The anonymous GM added that he's "convinced" Beane will trade up twice from 12th overall if necessary. Buffalo has already moved from 21st overall to 12th by trading left tackle Cordy Glenn to the Cincinnati Bengals.

Related: Post-FA NFL Mock Draft: Bills make another trade up for franchise QB

The Bills dealt 2017 starter Tyrod Taylor to the Cleveland Browns, leaving them with just free-agent signing AJ McCarron and 2017 fifth-rounder Nathan Peterman as options at the position.