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View Full Version : Broncos trade for OT Jared Veldheer



VonDoom
03-23-2018, 06:42 PM
https://twitter.com/allbrightnfl/status/977329084752527360?s=21

VonDoom
03-23-2018, 06:43 PM
Traded a sixth rounder. Sounds okay to me

Nomad
03-23-2018, 06:44 PM
Is he pretty good?

SmilinAssasSin27
03-23-2018, 06:52 PM
AZ fans are torn. Some say good riddance. Some are upset.

VonDoom
03-23-2018, 06:53 PM
https://twitter.com/troyrenck/status/977330641376223233?s=21

Freyaka
03-23-2018, 07:01 PM
I like it! Nice work Elway.

Buff
03-23-2018, 07:03 PM
He's started 100+ games in the NFL - so while he's not going to fix the line at this stage in his career, he's the type of serviceable dude we've been missing when the wheels have completely fallen off the past couple seasons.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-23-2018, 07:06 PM
Apparently owed$10 mil and fans thought way too much.

Buff
03-23-2018, 07:12 PM
Apparently owed$10 mil and fans thought way too much.

Had to overpay for our QB and OT this year given how desperate we are at both positions. The upside is that we have a ton of draft capital, which should help offset the cycle a bit.

Nomad
03-23-2018, 07:34 PM
He's started 100+ games in the NFL - so while he's not going to fix the line at this stage in his career, he's the type of serviceable dude we've been missing when the wheels have completely fallen off the past couple seasons.

Thanks. I never heard of him. I hope he works out for the benefit of the Broncos.

Buff
03-23-2018, 07:34 PM
This is the first solid Menelik Watson news I think we've seen:


The Broncos badly needed a right tackle upgrade after Watson struggled mightily in pass protection last season. Watson was an effective run blocker. He can make up to $6.125 million this season, although none of that money is guaranteed.

With the addition of Veldheer, Watson likely would have to accept a significant pay cut to stay as a swing backup tackle.

Sounds like they're just waiting for him to get healthy to cut him (or let him take a big paycut like Donald Stephenson did a couple seasons ago). I think they're better off cutting their losses.

http://www.9news.com/article/sports/broncos-have-their-right-tackle-after-elway-acquires-jared-veldheer-from-arizona/73-531461604

VonDoom
03-23-2018, 07:40 PM
Apparently owed$10 mil and fans thought way too much.

Looking at Over the Cap, $3.25 million was a prorated signing bonus - the Cardinals will have to eat that. So he should only count $6.9 million against the cap for us, which is a great deal if he's healthy and somewhat good. If Watson gets cut, we have some dead money but save $4.5 million to offset some of this as well.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-23-2018, 07:43 PM
If he passes his physical we just upgraded the weakest spot on our offense of line.

dogfish
03-23-2018, 07:54 PM
he's a capable vet, who has played both left and right tackle. . . maybe not the big pickup most of us would have liked, but i'm good with this given the scarcity at the position. . . this is john doing what he does, covering bases however he can so he doesn't get backed into a corner in the draft. . . and i still think they'll dig up some corpse at TE before all is said and done. . . possibly a receiver as well. . . we're probably getting pretty close to done, though. . .

slim
03-23-2018, 08:01 PM
Is this the guy from Oakland that the Cards over paid for a few years ago?

I suppose he has to be better than Watson, but that's what we said about Watson taking over for Stephenson

dogfish
03-23-2018, 08:04 PM
Is this the guy from Oakland that the Cards over paid for a few years ago?

I suppose he has to be better than Watson, but that's what we said about Watson taking over for Stephenson

yes. . .

if he's healthy, i do think he's at least better than those slugs. . .

slim
03-23-2018, 08:06 PM
yes. . .

if he's healthy, i do think he's at least better than those slugs. . .

They should put that on his headstone! "Better than those other slugs"

Tned
03-23-2018, 08:08 PM
Looking at Over the Cap, $3.25 million was a prorated signing bonus - the Cardinals will have to eat that. So he should only count $6.9 million against the cap for us, which is a great deal if he's healthy and somewhat good. If Watson gets cut, we have some dead money but save $4.5 million to offset some of this as well.

Are you sure? I think the prorated cap hit transfers with the player. Think back to when Plummer retired and had to pay back part of his signing bonus to Tampa, not the Broncos.

I'm pretty sure Broncos will be on the hook for the full cap number.

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 08:45 PM
:facepalm:

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 08:47 PM
Are you sure? I think the prorated cap hit transfers with the player. Think back to when Plummer retired and had to pay back part of his signing bonus to Tampa, not the Broncos.

I'm pretty sure Broncos will be on the hook for the full cap number.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5829/jared-veldheer

FWIW, this site saying Denver on hook for full $10.2, but I didn’t follow the link they gave.

Tned
03-23-2018, 08:49 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5829/jared-veldheer

FWIW, this site saying Denver on hook for full $10.2, but I didn’t follow the link they gave.

News flash. I'm like Ivory soap, 99 4/100 right.

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 08:50 PM
Dude is so beat up and ineffective that he has been considering retirement.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-23-2018, 08:51 PM
So we pay 10 mil for this guy but don't sniff the home state LT for 15? Seems legit.

dogfish
03-23-2018, 08:51 PM
They should put that on his headstone! "Better than those other slugs"

he's not dead yet, slim! there's no way he would pass the physical. . .




:facepalm:

we were gonna get joe thomas, but he retired. . .

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 08:51 PM
News flash. I'm like Ivory soap, 99 4/100 right.

Do you lost in fat ladies fat rolls too?

Tned
03-23-2018, 08:52 PM
Dude is so beat up and ineffective that he has been considering retirement.

And that folks, tells you how bad the line was last year.

slim
03-23-2018, 08:52 PM
I'm sure he will be fine :drinking:

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 08:53 PM
he's not dead yet, slim! there's no way he would pass the physical. . .





we were gonna get joe thomas, but he retired. . .

I don’t believe you, that’s inconceivable.

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 08:55 PM
And that folks, tells you how bad the line was last year.

The Cards OL is said to be pretty weak too, so there’s that.

slim
03-23-2018, 08:55 PM
he's not dead yet, slim!

So he is better than Watson!

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-23-2018, 08:56 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5829/jared-veldheer

FWIW, this site saying Denver on hook for full $10.2, but I didn’t follow the link they gave.

If he’s healthy he’ll be worth it.

dogfish
03-23-2018, 08:58 PM
So he is better than Watson!

exactly. . .

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 08:58 PM
Question, what are the chances John Elway is trying to completely tank the value of this franchise to make it easier to buy?

Shazam!
03-23-2018, 09:01 PM
Apparently owed$10 mil and fans thought way too much.

Looking at Over the Cap, $3.25 million was a prorated signing bonus - the Cardinals will have to eat that. So he should only count $6.9 million against the cap for us, which is a great deal if he's healthy and somewhat good. If Watson gets cut, we have some dead money but save $4.5 million to offset some of this as well.

It is so sad that a player 'somewhat good' is considered a major upgrade lol

slim
03-23-2018, 09:02 PM
Question, what are the chances John Elway is trying to completely tank the value of this franchise to make it easier to buy?

Stop posting

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-23-2018, 09:03 PM
Question, what are the chances John Elway is trying to completely tank the value of this franchise to make it easier to buy?

My guess is they aren’t excited about taking a tackle high enough in the draft to start, so they did this because they think there’s better depth at other positions in the top of the draft. It’s all I’ve got

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 09:04 PM
If he’s healthy he’ll be worth it.

He hasn’t been healthy or good in 3 seasons, so I have a dilemma: do we insist Veldheer is the ‘17 Veldheer like we do CK, or are both what they were prior to ‘17? A franchise QB and a broken down cap liability, or, a solid T and a journeyman backup QB.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-23-2018, 09:08 PM
He hasn’t been healthy or good in 3 seasons, so I have a dilemma: do we insist Veldheer is the ‘17 Veldheer like we do CK, or are both what they were prior to ‘17? A franchise QB and a broken down cap liability, or, a solid T and a journeyman backup QB.
I can’t speak to that. I haven’t paid any attention to him the last two years

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 09:08 PM
My guess is they aren’t excited about taking a tackle high enough in the draft to start, so they did this because they think there’s better depth at other positions in the top of the draft. It’s all I’ve got

My issue is there was a far better T on the trade block, a legit Top 10 LT (when healthy), it wouldve taken a premium pick to get it done though. I don’t even think Denver was in the conversation, so if they didn’t see a T in this draft worth a 2nd round pick what are they sitting on the 2nd round pick for when a legit solution is available for about the same salary?

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 09:09 PM
I can’t speak to that. I haven’t paid any attention to him the last two years

Iirc, he’s been on IR for most of it.

Poet
03-23-2018, 09:09 PM
My issue is there was a far better T on the trade block, a legit Top 10 LT (when healthy), it wouldve taken a premium pick to get it done though. I don’t even think Denver was in the conversation, so if they didn’t see a T in this draft worth a 2nd round pick what are they sitting on the 2nd round pick for when a legit solution is available for about the same salary?

The cat from Miami was on his last year and he wants bank. Tagging him for another year would be a stopgap, and paying a RT isn't awful (look at Philly) but it's not delightful, either.

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 09:10 PM
Stop posting

What? Was it something I said?

slim
03-23-2018, 09:14 PM
My issue is there was a far better T on the trade block, a legit Top 10 LT (when healthy), it wouldve taken a premium pick to get it done though. I don’t even think Denver was in the conversation, so if they didn’t see a T in this draft worth a 2nd round pick what are they sitting on the 2nd round pick for when a legit solution is available for about the same salary?

Mike Sullivan is a hard ass and has too much say. I don't think he understands cost/benefit.

G_Money
03-23-2018, 09:17 PM
Veldheer's all right, if healthy. Switching from LT to RT is not actually a piece of cake, but he figured it out a few weeks into the season. I don't think he's worth the 10 million if that's what he winds up costing Denver, but he's an upgrade. Again, if healthy. We'll see.

I would still take Nelson in the first to help the line, and then grab a developmental tackle a bit later. Even after the trade Denver still has enough picks to work with (and a lot of needs) but I'd love a really strong guard and a RT to be drafted. Having Leary and Veldheer around to help show the new guys the ropes is good too.

Tned
03-23-2018, 09:19 PM
Veldheer's all right, if healthy. Switching from LT to RT is not actually a piece of cake, but he figured it out a few weeks into the season. I don't think he's worth the 10 million if that's what he winds up costing Denver, but he's an upgrade. Again, if healthy. We'll see.

I would still take Nelson in the first to help the line, and then grab a developmental tackle a bit later. Even after the trade Denver still has enough picks to work with (and a lot of needs) but I'd love a really strong guard and a RT to be drafted. Having Leary and Veldheer around to help show the new guys the ropes is good too.

$7 million cash, $10 million cap

Poet
03-23-2018, 09:19 PM
Talib's salary went to this move. Judge it for what it be what it is as that's how it can be when it do .

Buff
03-23-2018, 09:24 PM
Talib's salary went to this move. Judge it for what it be what it is as that's how it can be when it do .

You've gotta make tradeoffs when constructing a roster under the salary cap. Ain't nobody saying Veldheer is better than Talib. But if your offensive tackle play leads to 1000 turnovers and sabotages the rest of the team's success, then you've gotta do something drastic.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-23-2018, 09:26 PM
You've gotta make tradeoffs when constructing a roster under the salary cap. Ain't nobody saying Veldheer is better than Talib. But if your offensive tackle play leads to 1000 turnovers and sabotages the rest of the team's success, then you've gotta do something drastic.

Add to that the fact that Talib isn't anywhere near as good as he once was and it's a wash IMO. We have young DB talent. Our oline is trash.

slim
03-23-2018, 09:27 PM
Wait, is this the guy that wears a hockey mask and kills coeds?

I can dig it.

Poet
03-23-2018, 09:28 PM
Add to that the fact that Talib isn't anywhere near as good as he once was and it's a wash IMO. We have young DB talent. Our oline is trash.

He's still a top twenty corner on team that had a weak pass rush. When he does really well this year his performance will, however, be bloated, because of that defense in L.A., and I bring that up to be fair.

Poet
03-23-2018, 09:29 PM
You've gotta make tradeoffs when constructing a roster under the salary cap. Ain't nobody saying Veldheer is better than Talib. But if your offensive tackle play leads to 1000 turnovers and sabotages the rest of the team's success, then you've gotta do something drastic.

Talib is more of a sure thing and there are better ways to go about this than trading an important player for an even more variance laden player. I understand your point about roster construction, and we're only at this point because of poor roster construction in the past.

Magnificent Seven
03-23-2018, 09:30 PM
Cool! Veldheer is back in AFC West! He used to be a Raider. Now, he is on our Orange Side!

Buff
03-23-2018, 09:36 PM
Talib is more of a sure thing and there are better ways to go about this than trading an important player for an even more variance laden player. I understand your point about roster construction, and we're only at this point because of poor roster construction in the past.

Yes, clearly mistakes were made that led to us needing a tackle and QB so badly, but all you can do is adjust to the present situation. For all Elway's misses, Roby was a solid late round pick, Chris Harris was as good of an UDFA as you'll ever find, and those moves allowed us to trade Talib and not leave a complete void as with QB and OT. Trade-offs.

Tned
03-23-2018, 09:38 PM
Talib is more of a sure thing and there are better ways to go about this than trading an important player for an even more variance laden player. I understand your point about roster construction, and we're only at this point because of poor roster construction in the past.

The good news is, as recently established, the line is actually pretty good with an average or better QB behind it.

Poet
03-23-2018, 09:38 PM
Yes, clearly mistakes were made that led to us needing a tackle and QB so badly, but all you can do is adjust to the present situation. For all Elway's misses, Roby was a solid late round pick, Chris Harris was as good of an UDFA as you'll ever find, and those moves allowed us to trade Talib and not leave a complete void as with QB and OT. Trade-offs.

Those moves allowed us to sign the most expensive backup QB in the game and take a massive risk with a busted up tackle. I'm taking the hardline because I've argued that we would have been better off taking a rookie QB and trying to add to the defense ala the Steelers, Ravens, Jets, etc who went that route with their young QB's.

On the brightside, this guy was once very good, and he's a swing tackle. He's also massive, and probably is good in the run game, too.

Poet
03-23-2018, 09:40 PM
The good news is, as recently established, the line is actually pretty good with an average or better QB behind it.

WOoohoOooo!

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-23-2018, 09:44 PM
The good news is, as recently established, the line is actually pretty good with an average or better QB behind it.
I don’t believe anyone suggested that

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 09:48 PM
Wait, is this the guy that wears a hockey mask and kills coeds?

I can dig it.

I’m looking forward to the obligatory boob/sex scene.

Poet
03-23-2018, 09:49 PM
I’m looking forward to the obligatory boob/sex scene.

Stop watching me and your wife get nasty!

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 09:52 PM
The cat from Miami was on his last year and he wants bank. Tagging him for another year would be a stopgap, and paying a RT isn't awful (look at Philly) but it's not delightful, either.

Cordy Glenn, traded to Bengals in the Bills move up to 12.

Speaking of, I’d rather trade for Cedric Ogbueghi, he sucks but at least he’s not 90-years-old and making bank.

Poet
03-23-2018, 09:58 PM
Cordy Glenn, traded to Bengals in the Bills move up to 12.

Speaking of, I’d rather trade for Cedric Ogbueghi, he sucks but at least he’s not 90-years-old and making bank.

Oh god...no...you don't trade out of the top five for a LT when you need a QB and there's plenty of options. You're cray!

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 10:07 PM
Oh god...no...you don't trade out of the top five for a LT when you need a QB and there's plenty of options. You're cray!

No, but the price was said to be a 2nd or 3rd before the trade deadline, i’m assuming that’s where the bidding started in March. And we all know how dynamic the Broncos 2nd-3rd round selections have been.

Matter of fact, they probably should’ve traded a 2nd round pick for Veldheer and kept the 6th.

Traveler
03-23-2018, 10:17 PM
Guess now they can move Watson to the swing G position which I believe suits him better.

Cugel
03-23-2018, 10:28 PM
Veldheer is a 6’8”, 321lb right tackle who is entering his 9th season in the NFL. He started out his career with the Oakland Raiders but has played the past four seasons with the Arizona Cardinals.

He is coming off an up and down 2017 season where started out slow for the Cardinals but finished strong before fracturing his ankle late in the year which ended his season.

Veldheer had been the Cardinals starting right tackle for the first nine games of the season before switching to the left side to replace the injured D.J. Humphries after Week 10. Veldheer had a tough start to the season, allowing the fourth-most pressures (27) by an offensive tackle through Week 5. By contrast, he allowed just 12 total pressures in the eight games since, ranking fifth at his position with a pass blocking efficiency score of 96.8 in Weeks 6-14.

Per Pro Football Focus, Veldheer gave up the fourth most pressures during the first five weeks of the season. However, he finished weeks six through fourteen as the 5th best pass blocker during that span with a grade of 98.8
Pro Football Focus

Veldheer is entering his final year of a five year $35 million contract that he signed back in 2014. Per Over The Cap, Veldheer’s cap hit for 2018, the final year of his contract will be $10,156,250.

Well, there's where all Talib's money went. They saved $11m from cutting Talib and they are giving this dude $10m of it! This is their big FA acquisition. Dude sounds like a more expensive version of Menelik Watson, but I suppose we'll see.

But, holy crap! He's coming off a fractured ankle last year? And he's due $10m a year? :eek:

I suppose they might dump Watson and his salary now. He can't be happy to hear this news!

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 10:33 PM
Guess now they can move Watson to the swing G position which I believe suits him better.

Huge paycut to start with.

Cugel
03-23-2018, 10:33 PM
Well, they still might get Nelson, but it would be intriguing if they could move Watson to G. Failed RTs often make better guards. Watson is athletic, and playing in a phone booth inside at G rather than being isolated in space against Joey Bosa and Melvin Ingram and Kalil Mack and such like might help him a lot.

So, potentially, the Broncos could have significantly strengthened their OL. This dude is obviously starting, since they are paying him $10m. That's the most any Broncos OL has been paid since Ryan Clady!

Cugel
03-23-2018, 10:37 PM
Huge paycut to start with.

Do you ever bother to check anything at all before shooting off your mouth? He was guaranteed $7.1m bonus last Saturday. His money is now guaranteed. They can't rescind that commitment. He's getting his $7.1m this year and not a penny less. It's not voluntary, and they could cut him, but they'd still have to pay him.

By dump Watson, I mean they could trade him and get some other team to pay his salary. They might even get something for him too since serviceable Ts are always valuable, if they have starter experience, even if they aren't great. Big men that size are really rare so even the mediocre ones find jobs in the NFL for years if they have experience from somewhere else.

It's rather like failed QBs in that respect. All teams want an experienced backup QB. But, obviously all the really good QBs are starters, so they have to take a guy who flunked as a starter (like the Vikings did with Brock Osweiler), and make him their cheap backup. They hardly have to pay him anything, which is good since they are paying Cousins a ton.

tomjonesrocks
03-23-2018, 11:45 PM
That’s a lot of money for a guy the Cards we’re going to cut. Highest paid RT in the league apparently.

Has to pass a physical before the deal is finalized.

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 11:49 PM
Do you ever bother to check anything at all before shooting off your mouth? He was guaranteed $7.1m bonus last Saturday. His money is now guaranteed. They can't rescind that commitment. He's getting his $7.1m this year and not a penny less. It's not voluntary, and they could cut him, but they'd still have to pay him.

By dump Watson, I mean they could trade him and get some other team to pay his salary. They might even get something for him too since serviceable Ts are always valuable, if they have starter experience, even if they aren't great. Big men that size are really rare so even the mediocre ones find jobs in the NFL for years if they have experience from somewhere else.

It's rather like failed QBs in that respect. All teams want an experienced backup QB. But, obviously all the really good QBs are starters, so they have to take a guy who flunked as a starter (like the Vikings did with Brock Osweiler), and make him their cheap backup. They hardly have to pay him anything, which is good since they are paying Cousins a ton.

Actually I did read this in one of those tweets, Watson might have to take a paycut.

So, nany nany, boo boo, stick your head in doo doo.

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 11:52 PM
Well, they still might get Nelson, but it would be intriguing if they could move Watson to G. Failed RTs often make better guards. Watson is athletic, and playing in a phone booth inside at G rather than being isolated in space against Joey Bosa and Melvin Ingram and Kalil Mack and such like might help him a lot.

So, potentially, the Broncos could have significantly strengthened their OL. This dude is obviously starting, since they are paying him $10m. That's the most any Broncos OL has been paid since Ryan Clady!

Hey, maybe between Veldheer and Watson they’ll get 16 starts at RT? It’s pretty ambitious but it’s just daft enough to work.

Bold strategy, Cotton, let’s see if it pays off.

Cugel
03-24-2018, 12:03 AM
Actually I did read this in one of those tweets, Watson might have to take a paycut.

So, nany nany, boo boo, stick your head in doo doo.

Once again for the slow of wit. I'll even put it in big font to make it easier for you to read:

THE BRONCOS GUARANTEED WATSON'S CONTRACT FOR 2018 LAST SUNDAY!

There! Was that big and bright enough for you to see? One possibility was for them to try and cut Watson's salary, but instead they guaranteed it. Now they CAN'T CUT HIS SALARY! NOT! They can keep him and pay him $7m or else trade him and try and get something for him.

Probably they are keeping him since Elway said they are keeping him. So, he's almost certainly getting his $7 m and staying.

[QUOTE]With Menelik Watson returning (his salary was fully guaranteed last Sunday) and Billy Turner re-signed to a one-year contract, the team is confident it not only has the right pieces now, but also the depth at tackle.

What’s more: The trade for Veldheer gives the Broncos’ options after 2018; Veldheer, 30, has one year remaining on his contract, with a base salary of $6.5 million.

Simple Jaded
03-24-2018, 12:23 AM
Once again for the galactically stupid; you asked if I bothered reading anything before I shoot my mouth off ... I did.

Simple Jaded
03-24-2018, 12:25 AM
Do you ever bother to check anything at all before shooting off your mouth?.

Read it carefully, Cugel, then apply my answer/response.

MOtorboat
03-24-2018, 12:29 AM
Well, this makes things interesting draft wise.

Simple Jaded
03-24-2018, 12:31 AM
Well, this makes things interesting draft wise.

Now that they have Veldheer they can never draft a RT again.

It’s science.

dogfish
03-24-2018, 12:59 AM
Now that they have Veldheer they can never draft a RT again.

It’s science.

i wouldn't say that, but it does look like they might be prioritizing a guard more heavily if they do go OL early-- which does kind of work to the strength of this class. . .

Simple Jaded
03-24-2018, 01:39 AM
i wouldn't say that, but it does look like they might be prioritizing a guard more heavily if they do go OL early-- which does kind of work to the strength of this class. . .

I wouldn’t say that at all, matter of fact I would say that means Nelson is not the pick ... follow me here; Watson makes $7 +M, he’s gonna start somewhere or Cugel’s gonna go nuclear about how there can’t be a backup making that much money.

So, he’s moving to G, and as we all know, adding mediocre backups to the starting lineup means you can never draft that position again.

OrangeHoof
03-24-2018, 02:23 AM
Veldheer sounds too much like a life-sized walking holding penalty.

Timmy!
03-24-2018, 05:19 AM
Lol. Really people....its a RT bandaid for a 6th. He is legit better than watson...
Not that's saying much, but still.

Timmy!
03-24-2018, 05:20 AM
Also,


Nnnneeeeelllllsssooooonnnnnn

VonDoom
03-24-2018, 07:45 AM
Are you sure? I think the prorated cap hit transfers with the player. Think back to when Plummer retired and had to pay back part of his signing bonus to Tampa, not the Broncos.

I'm pretty sure Broncos will be on the hook for the full cap number.

I’m waiting for Jason from OTC to confirm. But isn’t this like the JPP trade? Giants are eating 15 million in dead money, Bucs get him for something like three years 39 million

Cugel
03-24-2018, 07:52 AM
You've gotta make tradeoffs when constructing a roster under the salary cap. Ain't nobody saying Veldheer is better than Talib. But if your offensive tackle play leads to 1000 turnovers and sabotages the rest of the team's success, then you've gotta do something drastic.

They wanted to get rid of Talib. They wanted to play Roby. They think they can afford to get rid of Talib even though they could probably think of a way to pay him.


If Elway Was Being Totally Honest Like Jim Kerry in Liar Liar: "Sorry, but this is a business, so bye, bye Talib, as soon as we have to start paying Roby $8m a year.

And next year we are going to have to re-do Roby's deal, or else franchise him. And thatnegotiation will be Hell on Wheels, because he's going to want $13m a year, because that's what other top CBs get, and he's turning into a top CB.

After this year if he does turn in a great year, we're going to need a LOT more cap room because we want to retain Roby long-term. We think he's a home run draft pick. We love that! When one of the guys we invested a first round pick in turns out to be a really good player, we will pay that guy. He makes us feel good about our drafting abilities, because God knows! We haven't had any freakin' success in the 2nd round! We just let Cody Latimer walk and we freakin' moved up in the second round, in a draft that has turned out be one of the greatest WR classes in NFL history! That 2014 draft had Allen Robinson and Jarvis Freakin' Landry drafted in the same round right after we traded up for Cody Latimer!

We had to watch Jarvis Landry catch 110 passes a year for the Dolphins while Latimer had 35 catches for his entire career in Denver! We screwed up! So, when one of our high round draft guys does make good, we're paying that guy, and not you Aqib. Sorry about that! Thanks for the contribution. Our security will assist you to get your stuff packed up and we would like you to drop by the facility and bring your playbook."

VonDoom
03-24-2018, 08:20 AM
I’m waiting for Jason from OTC to confirm. But isn’t this like the JPP trade? Giants are eating 15 million in dead money, Bucs get him for something like three years 39 million

To follow up on this, looks like I was right, though I missed a minor detail.

https://twitter.com/Jason_OTC/status/977523384769826817

So it's $6.5 million base salary, and according to OTC, $500,000 in "in game" roster bonuses (so I wonder if that would be less if he's hurt and can't play - not sure on that). But basically $7 million, not $10.2 million for us.

https://overthecap.com/player/jared-veldheer/1270

Now back to the "does he suck?" discussion that's been going on.

Cugel
03-24-2018, 08:44 AM
I wouldn’t say that at all, matter of fact I would say that means Nelson is not the pick ... follow me here; Watson makes $7 +M, he’s gonna start somewhere or Cugel’s gonna go nuclear about how there can’t be a backup making that much money.

So, he’s moving to G, and as we all know, adding mediocre backups to the starting lineup means you can never draft that position again.

Jaded, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at that post! :laugh: :laugh:

But, it won't be me who goes nuclear, it will be John Elway when has a little chat with Mike Sullivan, the team's capologist ("Director of Football Administration"), and Mike Sullivan tells Elway "we're spending $7m on Watson, do you want to keep or move him?" And Elway has to defend spending all that money on a guy who isn't playing.

But, he will easily be able to do that by saying: "Well, Mike, Nelson is great and all, we really love him, but as you know full well we really haven't had a lot of depth at that position, so we really desperately need to keep all our options at the T position open. We're probably over-spending a bit this season, but hopefully we can get through this year and then next year the cap hit from releasing Watson won't be so steep and perhaps we can get another OT in the 2019 draft to complement Nelson, and back him up. We could add depth that way. At least that is our thinking right now. Thanks for asking though Mike. We're keeping Watson and he's going to play some but it was better to keep him even if he sits than cut him and take that cap hit in the ass.

And if Nelson is there at #5 we're taking him to the bank. We think he's a generational G in this league, an almost certain pro-bowl starter and probable All-Pro for 10 years in the NFL. And we felt like we just couldn't pass up an opportunity to get a player of that caliber at a position where we felt like we struggled a bit last year and in recent years.

So, we felt like we had a need at that position, and there was a generational player there and we felt we had to draft him. At #5. But, behind him there would be zero quality depth if we cut Watson. "

Rick
03-24-2018, 09:03 AM
Good signing.

He has played enough games that he is solid.

He can be a security blanket for McGovern or a rookie while Leary does the same for Boles.

VonDoom
03-24-2018, 09:24 AM
Good signing.

He has played enough games that he is solid.

He can be a security blanket for McGovern or a rookie while Leary does the same for Boles.

Kind of my thought as well. If healthy (always a big if with these guys recently), then a pre-draft OL of Bolles, Leary, Paradis, McGovern and Veldheer doesn’t sound too bad

Cugel
03-24-2018, 09:27 AM
Good signing.

He has played enough games that he is solid.

He can be a security blanket for McGovern or a rookie while Leary does the same for Boles.

If they drafted Nelson, now their OL would look a hell of a lot more formidable than in 2017. Still not awesome, but at least adequate.

LT - Bolles entering his 2nd year and hopefully committing fewer holding penalties
LG - Leary who is an elite G
C - Paradis who is not coming off an off-season where he had 2 hip surgeries.
RG - Nelson, a day 1 starter and potential All-Pro G ten year guy.
RT - Jared Veldheer and if he inevitably gets hurt again, Menelik Watson, until he inevitably gets hurt again too. But, hopefully between the two of those injury prone dudes, at least one of them will be off IR all season long. You're increasing your odds any way, that at least one of them won't have his knee fold up like cheap suit.

This is probably the best they can do, unless they are in position to take a T in the second round, which might be possible at #40. They also desperately need a WR, CB, TE, S, DT, ILB.

Part of the normal complete gutting and overhaul of your roster when you go 5-11. It's a fire sale of players who sucked and hopefully getting better players over the next two seasons.

Ziggy
03-24-2018, 12:45 PM
Replacing Garcia with Leary next to Bolles will accelerate his learning curve by approximately 2000%. That move in itself will make this line significantly better than last season.

OrangeHoof
03-24-2018, 12:53 PM
Speaking of tight end, has everyone forgotten Jake Butt?

Cugel
03-24-2018, 01:02 PM
Speaking of tight end, has everyone forgotten Jake Butt?

He's uncertain. Who knows if he will fully recover from that knee injury to be again the player he was at Michigan? Who knows how long it will take him to learn to play in the NFL after not having taken a snap in a regular season game. They tried to rush him back last year and his knee started really hurting again, so they shut him down and gave him a red-shirt year.

Nobody can rely on him being a star NFL TE, and certainly not in 2018. They need another starting caliber TE in this draft since they didn't find one in FA.

VonDoom
03-24-2018, 01:06 PM
Speaking of tight end, has everyone forgotten Jake Butt?

I think he’ll be good. But he hasn’t played a down so we don’t really know. I have no problem bringing in a vet to help out but I wouldn’t go high in the draft this year

Tned
03-24-2018, 02:37 PM
To follow up on this, looks like I was right, though I missed a minor detail.

https://twitter.com/Jason_OTC/status/977523384769826817

So it's $6.5 million base salary, and according to OTC, $500,000 in "in game" roster bonuses (so I wonder if that would be less if he's hurt and can't play - not sure on that). But basically $7 million, not $10.2 million for us.

https://overthecap.com/player/jared-veldheer/1270

Now back to the "does he suck?" discussion that's been going on.

If right, that's good, because they need most of what cap room they have left for the rookie class.

Simple Jaded
03-24-2018, 11:54 PM
Jaded, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at that post! :laugh: :laugh:

But, it won't be me who goes nuclear, it will be John Elway when has a little chat with Mike Sullivan, the team's capologist ("Director of Football Administration"), and Mike Sullivan tells Elway "we're spending $7m on Watson, do you want to keep or move him?" And Elway has to defend spending all that money on a guy who isn't playing.

But, he will easily be able to do that by saying: "Well, Mike, Nelson is great and all, we really love him, but as you know full well we really haven't had a lot of depth at that position, so we really desperately need to keep all our options at the T position open. We're probably over-spending a bit this season, but hopefully we can get through this year and then next year the cap hit from releasing Watson won't be so steep and perhaps we can get another OT in the 2019 draft to complement Nelson, and back him up. We could add depth that way. At least that is our thinking right now. Thanks for asking though Mike. We're keeping Watson and he's going to play some but it was better to keep him even if he sits than cut him and take that cap hit in the ass.

And if Nelson is there at #5 we're taking him to the bank. We think he's a generational G in this league, an almost certain pro-bowl starter and probable All-Pro for 10 years in the NFL. And we felt like we just couldn't pass up an opportunity to get a player of that caliber at a position where we felt like we struggled a bit last year and in recent years.

So, we felt like we had a need at that position, and there was a generational player there and we felt we had to draft him. At #5. But, behind him there would be zero quality depth if we cut Watson. "

I hope you don’t think I read this.

Cugel
03-25-2018, 12:01 PM
I hope you don’t think I read this.

I don't think you can read, Jared.

11923

Simple Jaded
03-25-2018, 02:31 PM
I don't think you can read, Jared.

11923

I don’t think Jared can read either, with all his new boyfriends I’m sure his dance card is full.

Elevation inc
03-26-2018, 06:58 AM
Its a crap signing now. With that being said we didn't have many options for vet experience not named Watson or Stephenson. The draft is super thin for OT help as well. I'm pissed we didn't go after Flemming from NE at RT, but I'm not a GM either. Elway made a simple call. He needed a Vet tackle that can fill either spot if shit hits the fan like last year. If healthy he will be a decent starter if not we just wasted 10 mil. I hope to god Billy turner improves to as he is probably going to be the swing and with injury history to Veldheer and poor draft options we are gonna need some luck. More than likely were gonna struggle a bit. Maybe not as bad as last year but a struggle none the less. We really need to hope we can grab a guy like Kolton Miller from UCLA or Martinas Rankin from Mississippi State. They both are solid rd. 2-3 tackles that could surprise at RT this year. Biggest knock on the tackle class is lack of weight for size and most got pushed around, that's no Bueno for college to pro transition, However a couple guys like the ones I just mentioned simply need a gym and did well in college and show plus athleticism, The others need lots of development. I'm hoping for Rankin myself, I think he can make a impact as early as TC. Also check out Austin Corbett from Nevada (rd 3-4 guy.)

From Walterfootball.com:

Broncos acquire OT Jared Veldheer from Cardinals for 6th-round picks
Jared Veldheer was once a solid starting left tackle in the NFL. He was never an elite player, but he was in the second tier of blind-side protectors for a while. That hasn't been the case recently, as he was atrocious last year. There were rumors that Veldheer wanted to retire prior to 2017, and he certainly played like he hung up the cleats. I figured Veldheer would call it a career after his awful 2017 campaign, but apparently not.

Not only is Veldheer a shell of his former self, he also carries a $10.2 million cap hit. The Broncos are eating it in exchange for a sixth-round pick, which doesn't seem right. You'd think they'd get a sixth-rounder to take on the Veldheer money in an NBA-style deal. Thus, I'd say the Cardinals won this trade because they got rid of a terrible contract.

However, this isn't a complete loss for Denver. Veldheer is still just 31, so there's still a chance, albeit a small one, that he would bounce back. The Broncos are desperate for right tackle help, and as bad as Veldheer was last year, he would be an upgrade over what they had there last year.

Grade for Broncos - C
Grade for Cardinals - A-

Read more: http://www.walterfootball.com/nfltrades.php#ixzz5Ar4yLmy9


Pretty much sums up how I feel about the trade myself.....

Shazam!
03-26-2018, 07:52 AM
Geez guys... lets let him play in preseason even? Before hes called garbage?

TXBRONC
03-26-2018, 08:20 AM
Its a crap signing now. With that being said we didn't have many options for vet experience not named Watson or Stephenson. The draft is super thin for OT help as well. I'm pissed we didn't go after Flemming from NE at RT, but I'm not a GM either. Elway made a simple call. He needed a Vet tackle that can fill either spot if shit hits the fan like last year. If healthy he will be a decent starter if not we just wasted 10 mil. I hope to god Billy turner improves to as he is probably going to be the swing and with injury history to Veldheer and poor draft options we are gonna need some luck. More than likely were gonna struggle a bit. Maybe not as bad as last year but a struggle none the less. We really need to hope we can grab a guy like Kolton Miller from UCLA or Martinas Rankin from Mississippi State. They both are solid rd. 2-3 tackles that could surprise at RT this year. Biggest knock on the tackle class is lack of weight for size and most got pushed around, that's no Bueno for college to pro transition, However a couple guys like the ones I just mentioned simply need a gym and did well in college and show plus athleticism, The others need lots of development. I'm hoping for Rankin myself, I think he can make a impact as early as TC. Also check out Austin Corbett from Nevada (rd 3-4 guy.)

From Walterfootball.com:

Broncos acquire OT Jared Veldheer from Cardinals for 6th-round picks
Jared Veldheer was once a solid starting left tackle in the NFL. He was never an elite player, but he was in the second tier of blind-side protectors for a while. That hasn't been the case recently, as he was atrocious last year. There were rumors that Veldheer wanted to retire prior to 2017, and he certainly played like he hung up the cleats. I figured Veldheer would call it a career after his awful 2017 campaign, but apparently not.

Not only is Veldheer a shell of his former self, he also carries a $10.2 million cap hit. The Broncos are eating it in exchange for a sixth-round pick, which doesn't seem right. You'd think they'd get a sixth-rounder to take on the Veldheer money in an NBA-style deal. Thus, I'd say the Cardinals won this trade because they got rid of a terrible contract.

However, this isn't a complete loss for Denver. Veldheer is still just 31, so there's still a chance, albeit a small one, that he would bounce back. The Broncos are desperate for right tackle help, and as bad as Veldheer was last year, he would be an upgrade over what they had there last year.

Grade for Broncos - C
Grade for Cardinals - A-

Read more: http://www.walterfootball.com/nfltrades.php#ixzz5Ar4yLmy9


Pretty much sums up how I feel about the trade myself.....

He's not going to playing of the blindside, and as the conclusion to the article says he's still an upgrade over what had last season.

Elevation inc
03-26-2018, 08:22 AM
I alluded to the RT point in my post and the article is basically about how I feel with regards to the trade.

Freyaka
03-26-2018, 08:26 AM
Geez guys... lets let him play in preseason even? Before hes called garbage?

No, that goes against the popular way of things around here. Everything sucks and nothing Elway does is right. Why would we hold off until after the draft and training game tom completely write the season off? Hell, is it too early to predict we're going to win 2 games in 2019?

Elevation inc
03-26-2018, 08:34 AM
In this case a spade is a spade....Watson was a less talented version of this scenario the year prior. We hoped for the best, but the fact was he was injury prone and had lost some skill, and sure enough ouch! Veldheer is in the same boat albeit he has some more talent but the concerns are valid and had supporting evidence all over the last 2 years. For 10 mil, I hate it. I get why we made the move, but I'm not a blind sheep either, and this just isn't that great. I would wager these same conversations have been held by Elway and his staff and they are hoping for the best, knowing how weak the FA class and his current roster at RT is....

Shazam!
03-26-2018, 08:53 AM
Geez guys... lets let him play in preseason even? Before hes called garbage?

No, that goes against the popular way of things around here. Everything sucks and nothing Elway does is right. Why would we hold off until after the draft and training game tom completely write the season off? Hell, is it too early to predict we're going to win 2 games in 2019?

smh

People condemn these guys yet they do a job we would only dream of doing for far below League min lol

TXBRONC
03-26-2018, 08:54 AM
I alluded to the RT point in my post and the article is basically about how I feel with regards to the trade.

Yes, I got that from your post. Just to be sure, I want you know I'm not criticizing you, I'm just re-emphasizing that he's not being asked to play left tackle.

dogfish
03-26-2018, 10:57 AM
lol! don't let KC and the sunshine boys get to ya, Einc. . .

Cugel
03-26-2018, 11:13 AM
I thought the Broncos were picking up $6m of his $10m contract and the Cardinals were eating $4m.

But, as for him wanting to retire after last year, who cares? Nick Foles wanted to retire after the 2016 season, and wound up being SB MVP. Funny how a change of teams and coaches can change things. For the Broncos he's an upgrade. If he plays average they will be thrilled. In AZ he was a disappointment they wanted to get rid of.

BroncoJoe
03-26-2018, 02:07 PM
Wan't last year the first year to play RT for him?

Freyaka
03-26-2018, 02:34 PM
Wan't last year the first year to play RT for him?

Yes, and he started out pretty rough before improving. He switched back to LT mid-year, not due to a lack of ability at the position, but due to injury of another tackle.

As far as his own injury concerns, Watson's money is guaranteed, at this point we have him for depth should the worst case happen. I also have confidence the position will be addressed in the draft.

VonDoom
03-26-2018, 03:01 PM
I thought the Broncos were picking up $6m of his $10m contract and the Cardinals were eating $4m.


His cap hit will be about $7 million for us.

Poet
03-26-2018, 04:14 PM
No, that goes against the popular way of things around here. Everything sucks and nothing Elway does is right. Why would we hold off until after the draft and training game tom completely write the season off? Hell, is it too early to predict we're going to win 2 games in 2019?

The attitude around here is generally positive. Goodness.

dogfish
03-26-2018, 04:34 PM
The attitude around here is generally positive. Goodness.

yay!!


11931

Freyaka
03-26-2018, 04:38 PM
The attitude around here is generally positive. Goodness.

Ok well, then I guess I stand corrected.

Poet
03-26-2018, 06:46 PM
Ok well, then I guess I stand corrected.

It was nice that we agreed on something for three days. That was weird. I wish you were nicer to me, though. You hurt my feelings and it makes me very, very sad.

NightTerror218
03-26-2018, 08:00 PM
Veldheer has allowed 14 sacks in 5 season.... Watson allowed 9 last year

Simple Jaded
03-26-2018, 11:17 PM
No, that goes against the popular way of things around here. Everything sucks and nothing Elway does is right. Why would we hold off until after the draft and training game tom completely write the season off? Hell, is it too early to predict we're going to win 2 games in 2019?

Now who’s putting words in people’s mouth?

Poet
03-26-2018, 11:45 PM
Now who’s putting words in people’s mouth?

We're held to a higher standard, Jaded.

Broncoknight30
03-27-2018, 04:43 AM
There may be posts in this thread about this, but I am wondering if the Broncos even attempted to get UFA Cameron Fleming who played for NE last season. I have not seen anything that indicates they even tried to sign him and he ended up signing with the Cowboys, one season, for $3.5. That is right around half of what Velhdeer will cost, and I think they could have signed him BEFORE THEY HAD TO PAY Manilik Watson $5.5 in guaranteed salary. Which of course would have also meant they would not have had to give up a 6th round pick to get Velhdeer. The fact is right now Watson is going to be getting paid MORE MONEY than Velhdeer to back him up, and lets face it. Velhdeer has clearly not been at his best in a few years with real injury issues. Soooo, right now the way it is set up from what I am reading Watson will be making $7.1 and Velhdeer will be making $6.9. Where Fleming just signed for $3.5.

Strange to me, and does not reflect well at all with this front office. The nightmare scenario other than incompetence is they did make a bigger offer and free agents are ignoring or avoiding the Broncos.

Elevation inc
03-27-2018, 06:47 AM
There may be posts in this thread about this, but I am wondering if the Broncos even attempted to get UFA Cameron Fleming who played for NE last season. I have not seen anything that indicates they even tried to sign him and he ended up signing with the Cowboys, one season, for $3.5. That is right around half of what Velhdeer will cost, and I think they could have signed him BEFORE THEY HAD TO PAY Manilik Watson $5.5 in guaranteed salary. Which of course would have also meant they would not have had to give up a 6th round pick to get Velhdeer. The fact is right now Watson is going to be getting paid MORE MONEY than Velhdeer to back him up, and lets face it. Velhdeer has clearly not been at his best in a few years with real injury issues. Soooo, right now the way it is set up from what I am reading Watson will be making $7.1 and Velhdeer will be making $6.9. Where Fleming just signed for $3.5.

Strange to me, and does not reflect well at all with this front office. The nightmare scenario other than incompetence is they did make a bigger offer and free agents are ignoring or avoiding the Broncos.


This is the problem I have. Maybe they didn't like Flemming but he has played well and could have been signed for cheap, I wanted us to at least make a effort and have him in for a visit. I am curious why NE didn't bring him back though after losing solder as well. There could be something we don't know about that has GM's shying away. Maybe they felt he was a product of the NE system, and actually not that talented. At this rate we better hope Billy turner or Watson Improves(doubtful), Veldheer stays healthy and we can grab a OT in rds 2 or 3. RT, G, 3rd WR, CB, TE and a LB that can cover are still big holes on this team.

VonDoom
03-27-2018, 08:26 AM
Patriots didn’t seem to want him back and they need OL depth with Solder leaving. I wanted to look into him as well but perhaps he’s just not very good

Freyaka
03-27-2018, 08:28 AM
It was nice that we agreed on something for three days. That was weird. I wish you were nicer to me, though. You hurt my feelings and it makes me very, very sad.

:coffee:

It's ok, I'm winding down my ability to care about the team until the draft hits, maybe we'll all agree for a few more days during the draft. I'm sure we all agree that Vance Joseph is a doofus, so we'll always have that.

Freyaka
03-27-2018, 08:35 AM
This is the problem I have. Maybe they didn't like Flemming but he has played well and could have been signed for cheap, I wanted us to at least make a effort and have him in for a visit. I am curious why NE didn't bring him back though after losing solder as well. There could be something we don't know about that has GM's shying away. Maybe they felt he was a product of the NE system, and actually not that talented. At this rate we better hope Billy turner or Watson Improves(doubtful), Veldheer stays healthy and we can grab a OT in rds 2 or 3. RT, G, 3rd WR, CB, TE and a LB that can cover are still big holes on this team.

I fully believe we'll grab a RT and a G in the draft. If Velhdeer does go down, the rookie will be waiting in the wings, plus we'll also have other depth available.

I'd rather we not get a guy with injury issues as well, but he's a clear upgrade from Watson. IF he stays healthy, he'll be a terrific pickup, if he doesn't...well just another mistake Elway made that people will hold against him. Either way, with the limited options available, it was the best choice of limited choices. I don't trust New England offensive players personally. They have a very player friendly system I don't know that he's as good as his play indicated. Who knows though, we could have made a mistake by passing him up.

Elevation inc
03-27-2018, 08:45 AM
I fully believe we'll grab a RT and a G in the draft. If Velhdeer does go down, the rookie will be waiting in the wings, plus we'll also have other depth available.

I'd rather we not get a guy with injury issues as well, but he's a clear upgrade from Watson. IF he stays healthy, he'll be a terrific pickup, if he doesn't...well just another mistake Elway made that people will hold against him. Either way, with the limited options available, it was the best choice of limited choices. I don't trust New England offensive players personally. They have a very player friendly system I don't know that he's as good as his play indicated. Who knows though, we could have made a mistake by passing him up.

I don't think Veldheeer was a mistake signing, I just don't feel great about it, I feel like there was some more due diligence we could have made with a guy like Flemming. We had to make a move though to replace Watson I get that. The whole FA class sucks and the draft is thin. This was talked about a lot last year to when many people feel we reached for Bolles. Most scouts and GM's felt last year and this year were just devoid of surefire starting talent at the tackle position.

Freyaka
03-27-2018, 08:52 AM
I don't think Veldheeer was a mistake signing, I just don't feel great about it, I feel like there was some more due diligence we could have made with a guy like Flemming. We had to make a move though to replace Watson I get that. The whole FA class sucks and the draft is thin. This was talked about a lot last year to when many people feel we reached for Bolles. Most scouts and GM's felt last year and this year were just devoid of surefire starting talent at the tackle position.

The NFL is as a whole devoid of talent on the oline. Colleges today don't develop the same level of offensive talent as they used to. I'm confident that IF he can stay healthy, our oline will be a lot better. Time will tell if that happens. Having Keenum will help or line imo. He's very good at avoiding pressure and moving around. He also throws on the move fairly decently.

Cugel
03-27-2018, 11:54 AM
His cap hit will be about $7 million for us.

Backup RT money in short. Last year Reilly Reiff got a five-year deal worth $58.75 million. The Vikings moved him to LT and his play was credited with helping them to the NFC Championship. That's what a GOOD T costs.

Elway is bargain shopping again, in a long line of trying to get a cheap OL. Draft Sambrailo and Bolles, start backups like Max Garcia or Schofield. Grab guys with injury history you hope will be good enough to get you through a season without disaster like Okung or Menelik Watson, . . . or now Jared Veldheer.

That's probably the biggest reason they will take Nelson at #5: he'll be cheap for the next 5 years on his rookie deal. :laugh:

Cugel
03-27-2018, 11:56 AM
The NFL is as a whole devoid of talent on the oline. Colleges today don't develop the same level of offensive talent as they used to. I'm confident that IF he can stay healthy, our oline will be a lot better. Time will tell if that happens. Having Keenum will help or line imo. He's very good at avoiding pressure and moving around. He also throws on the move fairly decently.

It will be a LOT better if they get an actually GOOD RG like Nelson.

If they draft a QB at #5 they will be starting all over again next year with a new QB and a new head coach and an entirely new coaching roster because Vance Joseph won't last past the bye week!

Poet
03-27-2018, 01:12 PM
It will be a LOT better if they get an actually GOOD RG like Nelson.

If they draft a QB at #5 they will be starting all over again next year with a new QB and a new head coach and an entirely new coaching roster because Vance Joseph won't last past the bye week!

This is the same thing the people who want a rebuild point to. Because I'm not certain the mighty CK is going to be able to overcome VJ. This is assuming that CK is able to replicate his slightly above average season via game managering.

Simple Jaded
03-27-2018, 08:54 PM
.

If they draft a QB at #5 they will be starting all over again next year with a new QB and a new head coach and an entirely new coaching roster because Vance Joseph won't last past the bye week!

You say that like it’s a bad thing.

Simple Jaded
03-27-2018, 09:01 PM
We're held to a higher standard, Jaded.

I’m cool with that, levels the playing field.

Jsteve01
03-27-2018, 09:23 PM
It will be a LOT better if they get an actually GOOD RG like Nelson.

If they draft a QB at #5 they will be starting all over again next year with a new QB and a new head coach and an entirely new coaching roster because Vance Joseph won't last past the bye week!

This is the same thing the people who want a rebuild point to. Because I'm not certain the mighty CK is going to be able to overcome VJ. This is assuming that CK is able to replicate his slightly above average season via game managering.

The good thing is is that Musgrave has been an above-average coordinator throughout his career. Everywhere he's been is offenses have been pretty good. Typically if he's left it's not been because he was fired but because there was a regime change. I still don't understand why Del Rio got rid of him after the season that car had 2 years ago

Poet
03-27-2018, 09:42 PM
The good thing is is that Musgrave has been an above-average coordinator throughout his career. Everywhere he's been is offenses have been pretty good. Typically if he's left it's not been because he was fired but because there was a regime change. I still don't understand why Del Rio got rid of him after the season that car had 2 years ago

There's nothing good here, man.

Cugel
03-27-2018, 09:50 PM
You say that like it’s a bad thing.

It is a very bad thing indeed! There is really only ONE major difference between the Denver Broncos organization and the Cleveland Browns organization, and that is that in Cleveland they change their coach and GM on a bi-annual basis.

A coach and GM fail. They are fired. The new coach and GM come in and want all new assistant coaches and those coaches want all new players. THEIR players.

And so they proceed to weed out the previous regime's assistant coaches and players, and start over with their own. And then after a couple years they in turn are fired, and the process starts all over again. That is why they are perpetually rebuilding.

You might not like VJ or think he was the right hire (I personally wanted Kyle Shanahan), but he's here now. And, if he fails that will make FOUR coaching failures and FOUR new coaching regimes in 4 years! Fox in 2014, Kubiak in 2015-16, VJ in 2017 and part of 2018 and a new head coach for 2019.

Congrats Elway! Your team is now officially the Cleveland Browns! :coffee:

That is why in the end Elway reconsidered his knee-jerk decision to fire VJ immediately after last season.

Successful organizations have long term plans in place. Crap organizations don't. The Steelers and Patriots are the two best organizations in the AFC, and not coincidentally, they both have emphasized continuity and coaching philosophy. They each know what kind of offense and defensive scheme they want to run, and long-term they identify coaches and players who can be successful in those schemes.

The Broncos have had ZERO identity the last 4 years. They've swerved wildly from one coaching philosophy and offensive or defensive identity to another.

That's what losing franchises do. Denver is on the verge of becoming the perennial worst team in the AFC West.

It all begins with VJ. They have to do everything in their power to help him succeed. And that begins with strengthening the roster - starting with the #5 pick. They need Chubb, or Barkley or Nelson. They need immediate help for this piss-weak roster. Because if they don't get it, this team will lose 10-12 games and they will fire VJ.

You short-sighted fools might think that's great! From an organizational standpoint it's a total disaster. Not great at all.

Jsteve01
03-27-2018, 09:56 PM
You say that like it’s a bad thing.

It is a very bad thing indeed! There is really only ONE major difference between the Denver Broncos organization and the Cleveland Browns organization, and that is that in Cleveland they change their coach and GM on a bi-annual basis.

A coach and GM fail. They are fired. The new coach and GM come in and want all new assistant coaches and those coaches want all new players. THEIR players.

And so they proceed to weed out the previous regime's assistant coaches and players, and start over with their own. And then after a couple years they in turn are fired, and the process starts all over again. That is why they are perpetually rebuilding.

You might not like VJ or think he was the right hire (I personally wanted Kyle Shanahan), but he's here now. And, if he fails that will make FOUR coaching failures and FOUR new coaching regimes in 4 years! Fox in 2014, Kubiak in 2015-16, VJ in 2017 and part of 2018 and a new head coach for 2019.

Congrats Elway! Your team is now officially the Cleveland Browns! :coffee:

That is why in the end Elway reconsidered his knee-jerk decision to fire VJ immediately after last season.

Successful organizations have long term plans in place. Crap organizations don't. The Steelers and Patriots are the two best organizations in the AFC, and not coincidentally, they both have emphasized continuity and coaching philosophy. They each know what kind of offense and defensive scheme they want to run, and long-term they identify coaches and players who can be successful in those schemes.

The Broncos have had ZERO identity the last 4 years. They've swerved wildly from one coaching philosophy and offensive or defensive identity to another.

That's what losing franchises do. Denver is on the verge of becoming the perennial worst team in the AFC West.

It all begins with VJ. They have to do everything in their power to help him succeed. And that begins with strengthening the roster - starting with the #5 pick. They need Chubb, or Barkley or Nelson. They need immediate help for this piss-weak roster. Because if they don't get it, this team will lose 10-12 games and they will fire VJ.

You short-sighted fools might think that's great! From an organizational standpoint it's a total disaster. Not great at all.

I agree. You can't have Coach turn over every two years

Simple Jaded
03-27-2018, 10:33 PM
Elway did what he had to do, kept VJ for another season, but that was yesterday, it means jackshit this time next year.

But if he’s the HC he appears to be Elway won’t have to worry about coaching turn over, It’ll plain for everyone to see what must be done.

And don’t lecture me about “short-sighted fools”, Mr ****ing Ignore A Potential QBotF And Build Everything Around A Scrub On A 2-year-deal. Spare me.

This mother****er?!

Simple Jaded
03-27-2018, 10:41 PM
I like how Cugel acts like CK is so good but they have to commit all possible assets in him to give him a chance to win now.

Broncoknight30
03-28-2018, 03:13 AM
I like how Cugel acts like CK is so good but they have to commit all possible assets in him to give him a chance to win now.

Not for nothing, but you really do make some ignorant posts.

http://www.atmatom.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/norepect.png
No Offense

TXBRONC
03-28-2018, 08:40 AM
It will be a LOT better if they get an actually GOOD RG like Nelson.

If they draft a QB at #5 they will be starting all over again next year with a new QB and a new head coach and an entirely new coaching roster because Vance Joseph won't last past the bye week!

If Denver drafts a quarterback with 5th pick no new coach it's likely that he'll allowed to just cast him aside.

Ziggy
03-28-2018, 04:13 PM
Sorry to get this thread back on topic, but I wish I could be a fly on the weight room wall when McGovern and Veldheer start competing on the weights. Now add Nelson and this line is starting to look straight up beastly.

Freyaka
03-28-2018, 04:16 PM
You know, I know some are down on this trade, but think of it this way. Before we started trading picks we had 11 picks. There aren't really likely to be enough roster spots for 11 picks. So we turned one of those picks into a 5th rounder next year (Trevor) one of them into Veldheer a vet who fits a need and one into Cravens. We still have a ton of picks in the first 5 rounds of this draft all while we've strengthened depth and filled holes.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-28-2018, 04:51 PM
Makes way too much sense.

dogfish
03-28-2018, 05:07 PM
Sorry to get this thread back on topic, but I wish I could be a fly on the weight room wall when McGovern and Veldheer start competing on the weights. Now add Nelson and this line is starting to look straight up beastly.

i'm not positive, but i have suspicions that jared may possibly be on the juice. . . :laugh:


11935

Simple Jaded
03-28-2018, 08:42 PM
Not for nothing, but you really do make some ignorant posts.

http://www.atmatom.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/norepect.png
No Offense

.......t(‘_’).......

No offense.

slim
03-28-2018, 08:45 PM
i'm not positive, but i have suspicions that jared may possibly be on the juice. . . :laugh:


11935

That can't be real

Cugel
03-28-2018, 09:47 PM
Sorry to get this thread back on topic, but I wish I could be a fly on the weight room wall when McGovern and Veldheer start competing on the weights. Now add Nelson and this line is starting to look straight up beastly.

That would be the greatest guarantee of future success. To have a dominant defensive and offensive line. Every success starts up front or it doesn't start at all. As we all saw all the time when Peyton would self-sack in order to avoid being crushed by some blitzing LB where the OL had totally and completely whiffed and let the guy run wild and free at the QB.

Trevor lacked that awareness, didn't self-sack when he needed to, and ultimately was injured and out with shoulder injuries the last 2 years. Biggest reason why he's gone now.

Time to fix the damn OL! It's been long enough now! They haven't had a decent OL since Ryan Clady was last healthy, in 2012. Since then it's been straight downhill for 6 straight years culminating in 2017 where they couldn't even get 1 yard on 3rd and 1 a bunch of times.

Cugel
03-28-2018, 09:50 PM
That can't be real

That looks obviously fake. Take a look at those other guys. Isn't that Derek Wolfe on the right? He weighs 287.

dogfish
03-28-2018, 10:23 PM
That looks obviously fake. Take a look at those other guys. Isn't that Derek Wolfe on the right? He weighs 287.

lol! i'm pretty sure those are random guys at some gym. . . i don't think anyone is working out at the broncos facility right now. . .

Jsteve01
03-28-2018, 10:47 PM
That looks obviously fake. Take a look at those other guys. Isn't that Derek Wolfe on the right? He weighs 287.

lol! i'm pretty sure those are random guys at some gym. . . i don't think anyone is working out at the broncos facility right now. . .

Old pic and legit. He is a beast

7DnBrnc53
03-31-2018, 07:04 PM
It is a very bad thing indeed! There is really only ONE major difference between the Denver Broncos organization and the Cleveland Browns organization, and that is that in Cleveland they change their coach and GM on a bi-annual basis.

A coach and GM fail. They are fired. The new coach and GM come in and want all new assistant coaches and those coaches want all new players. THEIR players.

And so they proceed to weed out the previous regime's assistant coaches and players, and start over with their own. And then after a couple years they in turn are fired, and the process starts all over again. That is why they are perpetually rebuilding.

You might not like VJ or think he was the right hire (I personally wanted Kyle Shanahan), but he's here now. And, if he fails that will make FOUR coaching failures and FOUR new coaching regimes in 4 years! Fox in 2014, Kubiak in 2015-16, VJ in 2017 and part of 2018 and a new head coach for 2019.

Congrats Elway! Your team is now officially the Cleveland Browns! :coffee:

That is why in the end Elway reconsidered his knee-jerk decision to fire VJ immediately after last season.

Successful organizations have long term plans in place. Crap organizations don't. The Steelers and Patriots are the two best organizations in the AFC, and not coincidentally, they both have emphasized continuity and coaching philosophy. They each know what kind of offense and defensive scheme they want to run, and long-term they identify coaches and players who can be successful in those schemes.

The Broncos have had ZERO identity the last 4 years. They've swerved wildly from one coaching philosophy and offensive or defensive identity to another.

That's what losing franchises do. Denver is on the verge of becoming the perennial worst team in the AFC West.

It all begins with VJ. They have to do everything in their power to help him succeed. And that begins with strengthening the roster - starting with the #5 pick. They need Chubb, or Barkley or Nelson. They need immediate help for this piss-weak roster. Because if they don't get it, this team will lose 10-12 games and they will fire VJ.

You short-sighted fools might think that's great! From an organizational standpoint it's a total disaster. Not great at all.

On the topic of NE and the Steelers, Belichick has earned that loyalty from Kraft. The Steelers started being loyal to coaches with Noll, but he earned it with four SB titles. Cowher and Tomlin should have been fired sooner. Cowher won with talent that Noll brought in (for the most part), and then he kept Kordell Stewart way too long. They should have moved on from Cowher around 1999 or 2000 when they had the chance. As for Tomlin, they should have fired him after the loss to NE in the 16 AFC Title Game. He let Antonio Brown get away with clowning on camera and saying things about the opponent after the KC game with no discipline whatsoever, and then he really didn't have them ready to play against the Pats. The players have no respect for him. The Rooneys should be ashamed of themselves for keeping him.

As for the Broncos, if Darnold, Mayfield or Rosen is there, you take one of them (Ian St. Clair and Adam Malnati of MHR were talking about this on the most recent podcast):

https://www.milehighreport.com/2018/3/30/17177982/broncos-need-to-find-the-right-fit-in-nfl-draft

SmilinAssasSin27
03-31-2018, 07:32 PM
Cowher built his own team. He just was a mediocre Xs and Os guy. They had a terrible roster when he took over. Mark Malone, Bubby, etc. Louis Lipps was the best they had going for em.

Poet
03-31-2018, 07:33 PM
Fox left on his own accord because he had issues with Elway. He left and then Denver won a SB in two years. GK retired for health reasons. VJ would be the first one actually fired, and then new coach would be the new coach.

That is NOT analogous to the Browns who fire HC's because they're awful, GMs because they're awful, or both. However, the analogy between Cleveland would be better served to be pointed at the comparison of both franchises (this is assuming VJ is kept if he can't hack it) holding onto flawed HC's for too long.

Simple Jaded
03-31-2018, 10:04 PM
I think Tomlin was supposed to be the kind of coach Elway thought/thinks he’s getting in VJ.

dogfish
04-01-2018, 02:35 AM
I think Tomlin was supposed to be the kind of coach Elway thought/thinks he’s getting in VJ.

except for the part where tomlin kept lebeau. . .

Broncoknight30
04-01-2018, 01:54 PM
except for the part where tomlin kept lebeau. . .

Which I am willing to bet was explained to him during the interview process. Tomlin's background is out of the Tampa 2 philosophy which is a 4-3 base and really does not send more than 4 guys, ever. Tony Dungy HATED blitzing.

So, I cannot prove it, but I am willing to bet that that was a condition when Tomlin was hired.

Poet
04-01-2018, 01:57 PM
Which I am willing to bet was explained to him during the interview process. Tomlin's background is out of the Tampa 2 philosophy which is a 4-3 base and really does not send more than 4 guys, ever. Tony Dungy HATED blitzing.

So, I cannot prove it, but I am willing to bet that that was a condition when Tomlin was hired.

The Steelers were on record saying that Tomlin had full control over his coaches. Tomlin just wasn't an idiot.

IIRC, Phillips didn't want to be a coordinator for a guy who had coached under him, and then asked for a ton of money. I would have paid him the money, but it wasn't in the cards.

7DnBrnc53
04-01-2018, 02:42 PM
Cowher built his own team. He just was a mediocre Xs and Os guy. They had a terrible roster when he took over. Mark Malone, Bubby, etc. Louis Lipps was the best they had going for em.

Watch the Football Life episode on Chuck Noll. When he retired in 91, he said that he had another SB team, but he was too tired to go on.

The pieces were in place for Cowher. When he started in 92, he inherited O'Donnell at QB, Barry Foster at RB, Eric Green and Adrian Cooper at TE, a good O-line, and a good D led by Rod Woodson, Greg Lloyd, Hardy Nickerson, and Carnell Lake.

SmilinAssasSin27
04-01-2018, 03:00 PM
Noll was out of his mind and the game clearly passed him by. I don't care what he said. He's the same guy who didn't want Marino. That team was average.

TXBRONC
04-02-2018, 11:39 AM
Noll was out of his mind and the game clearly passed him by. I don't care what he said. He's the same guy who didn't want Marino. That team was average.

Chuck didn't have final say who they selected. Richard Haley did and when he passed on Marino, Art never forgave him for it.

SmilinAssasSin27
04-02-2018, 04:06 PM
According to another documentary, Noll did make the call. He wanted to rebuild thru defense just like when he first took over. So he took the DL who put himself thru the back window of his car.

Simple Jaded
04-02-2018, 10:15 PM
except for the part where tomlin kept lebeau. . .

Ouch!

#HammerTime

7DnBrnc53
04-04-2018, 05:23 AM
According to another documentary, Noll did make the call. He wanted to rebuild thru defense just like when he first took over. So he took the DL who put himself thru the back window of his car.

Right. Before the 1983 draft, though, one of the Rooney's suggested that they take Marino and trade back into the first round to get Rivera. Noll went along with it. However, when they told him that they got the idea from a reporter, Noll was upset and discarded it.

See, this certain reporter turned in the Steelers for a violation in 1978, and Noll couldn't stand him. You may have heard of him. His name: John Clayton.