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Shazam!
03-14-2018, 05:15 PM
Anyone else hear this?

Thanks Trevor and good luck in the future.

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2697140-trevor-siemian-trade-to-vikings-reportedly-being-finalized-with-broncos.amp.html

Broncoknight30
03-14-2018, 05:25 PM
Yeah, hope he beats out Cousins. :hahaha:

topscribe
03-14-2018, 05:26 PM
We've been talking about it in the other thread . . .

nevcraw
03-14-2018, 05:26 PM
It won’t but it should shut up the Sloter blowers.

Northman
03-14-2018, 05:28 PM
It won’t but it should shut up the Sloter blowers.

Lol, i had forgotten all about that. Yea, doesnt say much for Sloter if they go and grab Cousins and Siemian.

Rick
03-14-2018, 05:29 PM
I'd like to know what the 2019 pick is.

Gives a little less ammo this year for moving up, but would be nice if the one next year is like a 5th or something.

Poet
03-14-2018, 05:31 PM
Good riddance.

BroncoJoe
03-14-2018, 05:33 PM
Good riddance.

You're an ungrateful monster.

UnderArmour
03-14-2018, 05:40 PM
You're an ungrateful monster.

Ungrateful for what? 2 years of missing the playoffs? Yeah, he had some good games, but the guy never led this team to the playoffs. He led a mediocre offensive attack that struggled to attack the center of the football field through the air. He got the ball to DT and Sanders, but under Siemian, third and fourth receiving threats failed to develop. It is what it is.


The move had to be done if we're going to continue posturing like we're going to keep CJ and Watson anyways. If the numbers are right, we had $29 million cap space after trading Talib. Roughly $18 million went to Keenum, $4 million to Trumaine Brock, $3-6 million to Todd Davis. Siemian's salary and cap number quietly went up to $1.9 million due to performance bonuses, so this gives the team breathing room to keep CJ Anderson if no trade partner can be found.

There's $10 million in extra cap space to be cleared if CJ is dealt and Watson is a June 1st cut, but without this move the Broncos were going to be stuck going after anyone else.

UnderArmour
03-14-2018, 05:43 PM
We've been talking about it in the other thread . . .

Big news=new thread. Not everyone enjoys creeping through 50 page threads that continually get sidetracked.

Hawgdriver
03-14-2018, 05:44 PM
What's the coaching situation look like in Minny? Did their OC get a HC gig?

Timmy!
03-14-2018, 05:45 PM
Hey guys did you hear we traded Trevor?

UnderArmour
03-14-2018, 05:47 PM
What's the coaching situation look like in Minny? Did their OC get a HC gig?

Shurmur left to be HC in New York, and they hired the Eagles QB coach, John DeFilippo, to take over.

aberdien
03-14-2018, 05:52 PM
Goodbye to the next Tom Brady.

DenBronx
03-14-2018, 06:17 PM
So probably a 7th rounder with conditions if he ends up starting X amount of games?

Hey, at least we are getting something in return for these guys.

UnderArmour
03-14-2018, 06:19 PM
So probably a 7th rounder with conditions if he ends up starting X amount of games?

Hey, at least we are getting something in return for these guys.

The pick cannot be conditional because we pitched a late round pick in. Most likely, it's a 2019 4th or 5th.

Shazam!
03-14-2018, 06:25 PM
We've been talking about it in the other thread . . .

Big news=new thread. Not everyone enjoys creeping through 50 page threads that continually get sidetracked.

Amen bro thanks. Tried to pitch in.

wayninja
03-14-2018, 06:34 PM
Lol, i had forgotten all about that. Yea, doesnt say much for Sloter if they go and grab Cousins and Siemian.

Doesn't matter, his shrine in Canton is already being custom built.

Rick
03-14-2018, 06:36 PM
Supposedly we shipped a late round pick from this draft, if we did it better be better than a 7th in return. I would hope for a pick a round or 2 higher than what we game up.

UnderArmour
03-14-2018, 06:36 PM
https://twitter.com/MikeKlis/status/974064545676382208

It's a 5th in 2019.

Rick
03-14-2018, 06:37 PM
Good deal.

Poet
03-14-2018, 06:38 PM
The Vikings got fleeced!!!!

wayninja
03-14-2018, 06:39 PM
What becomes of Packin' Lunch and and the new kid on the Brock?

Rick
03-14-2018, 06:43 PM
Brock is a FA, they should have to just do nothing.

wayninja
03-14-2018, 06:48 PM
Brock is a FA, they should have to just do nothing.

But do you feel that is punitive enough?

Can't they symbolically trade him for a 24oz big gulp and a half eaten hotdog or something?

Or make him go back to the browns?

DenBronx
03-14-2018, 06:56 PM
https://twitter.com/MikeKlis/status/974064545676382208

It's a 5th in 2019.


Not bad.

NightTerror218
03-15-2018, 12:07 AM
Hallelujah hallelujah!

Simple Jaded
03-15-2018, 12:15 AM
So ... the Vikings get the best (barf) QB in FA and a taller/stronger armed version of the QB their HC considers a backup.

Let that sink in.

Simple Jaded
03-15-2018, 12:16 AM
The Vikings got fleeced!!!!

Shit, Elway got fleeced. Bills got a 3rd for their average QB.

Shazam!
03-15-2018, 10:07 AM
The Vikings got fleeced!!!!

Shit, Elway got fleeced. Bills got a 3rd for their average QB.

I wouldn't have given them a pick with TS I tell you that.

Rick
03-15-2018, 10:08 AM
Shit, Elway got fleeced. Bills got a 3rd for their average QB.

Taylor is night and day better than Simien.

tomjonesrocks
03-15-2018, 01:32 PM
Will the Broncos try to sign Sloter to the PS? I mean, we're already betting the Vikes suck at evaluating QBs...

broncofaninfla
03-15-2018, 01:46 PM
I wish the best for Trevor, class act. Wish it would have worked out different for him here but the facts are the OL and running game have been putrid and he simply isn't good enough to overcome those team shortcomings. I wonder if Keenum is honestly but hopefully Elway and company finally fix the RT and OL issues.

MOtorboat
03-16-2018, 12:59 AM
I wish the best for Trevor, class act. Wish it would have worked out different for him here but the facts are the OL and running game have been putrid and he simply isn't good enough to overcome those team shortcomings. I wonder if Keenum is honestly but hopefully Elway and company finally fix the RT and OL issues.

Trevor Siemian is a good guy...and I'm about to be a dick...

You know...the running game was 12th last year, and Football Outsiders ranked the line as the 9th-best rushing line in the league. In no friggin' way was the running game putrid last year.

FanInAZ
03-16-2018, 02:03 AM
I wish the best for Trevor, class act. Wish it would have worked out different for him here but the facts are the OL and running game have been putrid and he simply isn't good enough to overcome those team shortcomings. I wonder if Keenum is honestly but hopefully Elway and company finally fix the RT and OL issues.

He was supposed to be a career back-up, like Kubiak was during the 1st 10 years of Elway's career, but was pushed into the starting job with little warning. Now he's going to the Vikings who are going to ask him to be what he was supposed to be in the 1st place, a career back-up. I wish him all the best.

Simple Jaded
03-16-2018, 02:51 AM
Taylor is night and day better than Simien.

He has better skin tone.

Simple Jaded
03-16-2018, 02:52 AM
I wouldn't have given them a pick with TS I tell you that.

Shazam! gets it.

Shazam!
03-16-2018, 03:14 AM
I wouldn't have given them a pick with TS I tell you that.

Shazam! gets it.

Some could say it was even with Talib deal too, but I'm always of the belief of not packing in shit. Like the Tebow to Jets deal.

Tned
03-16-2018, 09:49 AM
Trevor Siemian is a good guy...and I'm about to be a dick...

You know...the running game was 12th last year, and Football Outsiders ranked the line as the 9th-best rushing line in the league. In no friggin' way was the running game putrid last year.

Pass protection, especially from left guard and right tackle left a lot to be desired, specially on obvious pass downs.

Football outsiders ranks them 29th in pass blocking, in an effective tie with Indy and Houston at 30 and 31.

Cugel
03-16-2018, 10:29 AM
It won’t but it should shut up the Sloter blowers.

I was thinking this. The Vikings were obviously not happy with the concept of Kyle Sloter being their backup. The question now is whether he makes the team as the #3 QB. "But, Sloter is going to be a starter for the Vikings!" :coffee:

Cugel
03-16-2018, 10:33 AM
He was supposed to be a career back-up, like Kubiak was during the 1st 10 years of Elway's career, but was pushed into the starting job with little warning. Now he's going to the Vikings who are going to ask him to be what he was supposed to be in the 1st place, a career back-up. I wish him all the best.

Basically this. The word coming out of the draft was that Denver was smart to pick up another cheap training camp arm in the 7th round. Normal career for a 7th round QB is practice squad, until their eligibility expires, and then goodbye! They're out of the league and nobody remembers they were ever there.

Trevor exceeded these meager expectations, and through Elway's personnel failures he was given the starting job. He couldn't stay healthy, couldn't overcome the feeble offense he was given, but nobody sensible ever thought he could elevate the play of the players around him like a Peyton Manning.

That is not his fault. Kudos to a guy who maximized his potential. Good luck Trevor! :salute:

Rick
03-16-2018, 10:38 AM
Trev looks to be a guy like McCown. Journeyman bridge starter, nothing more. NOTHING wrong with that, great job in that! He can have a long career doing that and make some good money.

You don't have to make the hall of fame to be a NFL success.

Nomad
03-16-2018, 10:53 AM
He was supposed to be a career back-up, like Kubiak was during the 1st 10 years of Elway's career, but was pushed into the starting job with little warning. Now he's going to the Vikings who are going to ask him to be what he was supposed to be in the 1st place, a career back-up. I wish him all the best.

I don't get the hate for Trevor. He was frustrating to watch, mostly (he had good moments), but the BRONCO coaches are the ones that put him in the position. It says a lot that he beat out Lynch. I wish him the best as well.

Poet
03-16-2018, 02:59 PM
I don't get the hate for Trevor. He was frustrating to watch, mostly (he had good moments), but the BRONCO coaches are the ones that put him in the position. It says a lot that he beat out Lynch. I wish him the best as well.

Well he absolutely sucked and played us out of the playoffs his first year. Then he sucked even more and could never do well unless everything was perfect around him. I don't know, why else would you hate a god awful player who is consequential?

Nomad
03-16-2018, 03:02 PM
Well he absolutely sucked and played us out of the playoffs his first year. Then he sucked even more and could never do well unless everything was perfect around him. I don't know, why else would you hate a god awful player who is consequential?

Did you read what FIAZ wrote? He's a back up QB. Did you expect him to be John Elway? It's your fault to have such high expectations to play beyond his means.

Poet
03-16-2018, 04:22 PM
Did you read what FIAZ wrote? He's a back up QB. Did you expect him to be John Elway? It's your fault to have such high expectations to play beyond his means.

Well, he was a STARTER HERE! He signed up for it! You're either the man or you're not! He played to be the man! To be the man you have to BEAT the man. TS beat almost no one. Because he's trash! He was trash then! He's trash now! Tomorrow? He trash! Next Wednesday? Trash! Next month!!?!? TRASH! Next year? Trash! Five years?! TRASH! Backups are trash!

FanInAZ
03-16-2018, 05:22 PM
Well, he was a STARTER HERE! He signed up for it! You're either the man or you're not! He played to be the man! To be the man you have to BEAT the man. TS beat almost no one. Because he's trash! He was trash then! He's trash now! Tomorrow? He trash! Next Wednesday? Trash! Next month!!?!? TRASH! Next year? Trash! Five years?! TRASH! Backups are trash!

Tell the Vikings & Eagles that all backups are trash. Tell the Patriots that any QB drafted in the 7th round is trash. Yes, he was forced into the starting role because he was beat out all of the other QBs on our roster over the past 2 season. He did his best, but was inadequate for what he was called on to do here. However, he showed enough that the Vikings are willing to have him for the role that he was originally drafted here to fulfill.

BroncoJoe
03-16-2018, 05:23 PM
AZ, king is beyond reason. Best to back away slowly. He might get violent and hashtag your ass.

FanInAZ
03-16-2018, 05:28 PM
AZ, king is beyond reason. Best to back away slowly. He might get violent and hashtag your ass.

#bringitonambulancechaser

Poet
03-16-2018, 05:53 PM
Tell the Vikings & Eagles that all backups are trash. Tell the Patriots that any QB drafted in the 7th round is trash. Yes, he was forced into the starting role because he was beat out all of the other QBs on our roster over the past 2 season. He did his best, but was inadequate for what he was called on to do here. However, he showed enough that the Vikings are willing to have him for the role that he was originally drafted here to fulfill.

Great! So he's trash because he's a trash backup, too! Wonderful. Excellent point. He's ******* trash, most backups are trash, most seventh rounders are trash, he's a trash starter, he's trash.

Trash this week! Trash next month! Next year! Next Decade! He's ******* trash!

Poet
03-16-2018, 05:54 PM
Did you read what FIAZ wrote? He's a back up QB. Did you expect him to be John Elway? It's your fault to have such high expectations to play beyond his means.

Nomad wants to throw a cuddle party for TS's trashass but shits on real QB prospects! Nomad! You are drawing my ire!

FanInAZ
03-16-2018, 05:59 PM
Next year! Next Decade! He's getting paid millions to carry a clipboard!

Corrected for accuracy :D

Poet
03-16-2018, 06:02 PM
Corrected for accuracy :D

He did that in the past, too! Trash!!!!!!!!

FanInAZ
03-16-2018, 06:12 PM
He did that in the past, too! Trash!!!!!!!!

Oz & Manning were alternating carrying the clipboard that year he was guarding the Gatorade jugs, and he did a 1st rate job at it :D

Shazam!
03-16-2018, 06:57 PM
Did you read what FIAZ wrote? He's a back up QB. Did you expect him to be John Elway? It's your fault to have such high expectations to play beyond his means.

Well, he was a STARTER HERE! He signed up for it! You're either the man or you're not! He played to be the man! To be the man you have to BEAT the man. TS beat almost no one. Because he's trash! He was trash then! He's trash now! Tomorrow? He trash! Next Wednesday? Trash! Next month!!?!? TRASH! Next year? Trash! Five years?! TRASH! Backups are trash!

Wow. Did he kill your dog or something?

Poet
03-16-2018, 07:06 PM
I hate shitty QB's.

Nomad
03-16-2018, 08:31 PM
I hate shitty QB's.

It's your fault for having such high expectations of a back up QB. #footballfansnowflake #rosenismadeofglass

Poet
03-16-2018, 08:57 PM
It's your fault for having such high expectations of a back up QB. #footballfansnowflake #rosenismadeofglass

It's my fault for being mad at a starting QB who was bad? No. TS was so bad that he was below expectations.

#itsbadwhenyouhavetouseFalcolanguage
#Rosenisafuturestud

Jsteve01
03-16-2018, 09:02 PM
It's your fault for having such high expectations of a back up QB. #footballfansnowflake #rosenismadeofglass

It's my fault for being mad at a starting QB who was bad? No. TS was so bad that he was below expectations.

#itsbadwhenyouhavetouseFalcolanguage
#Rosenisafuturestud

Wow

Simple Jaded
03-16-2018, 09:23 PM
Did you read what FIAZ wrote? He's a back up QB. Did you expect him to be John Elway? It's your fault to have such high expectations to play beyond his means.

But we were told how ******* great he was, “ohhh so smart”, “great teammate”, “can really spin it”, “the Cinderella Boy”. By Coaches, fans, media.

Yeah, he’s a backup, but that’s not how he was sold ... kinda like Barf Keenum is now.

topscribe
03-16-2018, 09:35 PM
I hate shitty QB's.
Wait . . . WHAT?

That's not the impression I got. :lol:

Poet
03-16-2018, 09:58 PM
Wait . . . WHAT?

That's not the impression I got. :lol:

Don't you tease me now!

Nomad
03-16-2018, 10:13 PM
I'll quit trolling you, King. :D. #muchlove

Tned
03-16-2018, 10:56 PM
But we were told how ******* great he was, “ohhh so smart”, “great teammate”, “can really spin it”, “the Cinderella Boy”. By Coaches, fans, media.

Yeah, he’s a backup, but that’s not how he was sold ... kinda like Barf Keenum is now.

And while Keenum is better outside of the pocket, if the Broncos don't fix the line he'll be lucky to finish the season as QB.

I'm really surprised how guys that have watched football for decades don't understand how critical the line, and play calling is.

Is the rare exception at QB that can overcome horrible pass blocking.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-16-2018, 10:59 PM
The Vikings got fleeced!!!!
The trade fails to mention the 5th round pick he got us this year too.

What a bargain!

Poet
03-16-2018, 11:00 PM
The trade fails to mention the 5th round pick he got us this year too.

What a bargain!

I'd have given up a second rounder to get rid of him!

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-16-2018, 11:04 PM
I'd have given up a second rounder to get rid of him!

My first thought was, “here’s a 7th to take him off our hands.”

The analysis isn’t accurate either because a 5 next year is like a 6th this year, plus it’s not like they gave us a sixth outright.

It seems to me the value is more like a late 7th

dogfish
03-16-2018, 11:05 PM
Taylor is night and day better than Simien.

for sure. . . we should have just played sunshine, rather than spending all that cash on keenum. . .



Wow

i know, right? nomad using hashtags?!

#WhatTheHell'sGoinOnOutHere

Poet
03-16-2018, 11:05 PM
TS should give half of his earning to Kubiak.

Simple Jaded
03-16-2018, 11:49 PM
And while Keenum is better outside of the pocket, if the Broncos don't fix the line he'll be lucky to finish the season as QB.

I'm really surprised how guys that have watched football for decades don't understand how critical the line, and play calling is.

Is the rare exception at QB that can overcome horrible pass blocking.
I actually agree with you, I still like TS.

Don’t ask me to explain.

Poet
03-17-2018, 01:17 AM
I actually agree with you, I still like TS.

Don’t ask me to explain.

We're done!

Simple Jaded
03-17-2018, 01:21 AM
We're done!

Kinger was it something I said?

Poet
03-17-2018, 01:35 AM
Kinger was it something I said?

After everything I've done for you? I remade you from nothing, you ungrateful wretch!

Shazam!
03-17-2018, 04:14 AM
But we were told how ******* great he was, “ohhh so smart”, “great teammate”, “can really spin it”, “the Cinderella Boy”. By Coaches, fans, media.

Yeah, he’s a backup, but that’s not how he was sold ... kinda like Barf Keenum is now.

And while Keenum is better outside of the pocket, if the Broncos don't fix the line he'll be lucky to finish the season as QB.

I'm really surprised how guys that have watched football for decades don't understand how critical the line, and play calling is.

Is the rare exception at QB that can overcome horrible pass blocking.

I agree with this 100%.

TS didn't have enough time to learn what he needed to learn to survive the blitz and beat it, because teams knew the Broncos OLine was so terrible they didn't even have to send more than 4 or 5 to produce real QB pressure.

When your OLine can't do anything even remotely average, there is no way they can be successful.

I believe Siemien will have a long NFL career. I hope he is never in the AFC.

Another fair point is it was almost guaranteed he would fail. No one coming in here was going to successfully replace PM. Even a broken PM is better than most average QBs.

...and King arent you a Bengals fan too? If so you're very accustomed to terrible QBs. So why be so irate?

Davii
03-17-2018, 07:11 AM
Trevor Siemian is a good guy...and I'm about to be a dick...

You know...the running game was 12th last year, and Football Outsiders ranked the line as the 9th-best rushing line in the league. In no friggin' way was the running game putrid last year.

Can you imagine where the running game would've been if teams weren't able to stack the box and had to defend against a good passing attack? Not even a great or dynamic one, just a good one.

Poet
03-17-2018, 10:02 AM
Can you imagine where the running game would've been if teams weren't able to stack the box and had to defend against a good passing attack? Not even a great or dynamic one, just a good one.

When teams don't have to defend the sidelines or fear deep ball passing your running game is really up against it.

Poet
03-17-2018, 10:05 AM
I agree with this 100%.

TS didn't have enough time to learn what he needed to learn to survive the blitz and beat it, because teams knew the Broncos OLine was so terrible they didn't even have to send more than 4 or 5 to produce real QB pressure.

When your OLine can't do anything even remotely average, there is no way they can be successful.

I believe Siemien will have a long NFL career. I hope he is never in the AFC.

Another fair point is it was almost guaranteed he would fail. No one coming in here was going to successfully replace PM. Even a broken PM is better than most average QBs.

...and King arent you a Bengals fan too? If so you're very accustomed to terrible QBs. So why be so irate?

TS had an entire offseason of his true rookie year. He then had two seasons of starting. He had more time to learn than most young starting QB's, so this is factually false.

You can't just blame the line - if people go back and rewatch those games (god bless you if you can) you'll see him not stepping up in the pocket, holding onto the ball for too long, never feeling pressure and sliding, etc. There were times where he got sacked when the job did it's job, and that's because he's simply not good. People want to just scream 'the line's bad so it's not his fault' while never understanding that QB's contribute to how a line performs. And his understanding of the game, which was supposed to be a strength, was so great that he never audibled when there was a blitz, and he never recognized one, either.

As far as it being a guarantee that he would fail - I wish you had been around to tell that to his fans the past two seasons, because they surely did not feel that way.

I disavow the Bengals in all ways, shapes, and forms.

Tned
03-17-2018, 10:05 AM
When teams don't have to defend the sidelines or fear deep ball passing your running game is really up against it.

When receivers and QB don't have time to let routes develop, it severely limits the passing game.

Poet
03-17-2018, 10:06 AM
When receivers and QB don't have time to let routes develop, it severely limits the passing game.

And the Broncos ran one of the most conservative offenses in terms of offense - we were at the bottom of the league in deep ball passing and attempts.

Tned
03-17-2018, 10:14 AM
And the Broncos ran one of the most conservative offenses in terms of offense - we were at the bottom of the league in deep ball passing and attempts.

Because receivers rarely had time to even run seven years routes, forget actual deep ones.

Stepping up in a pocket as rushers routinely penetrated between RG and C as if they weren't touched wasn't an option.

I understand the hate for TS makes it easy to ignore facts. Water under the bridge at this point. I'm just hoping the Broncos fix the two biggest holes on the team, LG and RT, or it will likely be another long season.

Poet
03-17-2018, 10:21 AM
Because receivers rarely had time to even run seven years routes, forget actual deep ones.

Stepping up in a pocket as rushers routinely penetrated between RG and C as if they weren't touched wasn't an option.

I understand the hate for TS makes it easy to ignore facts. Water under the bridge at this point. I'm just hoping the Broncos fix the two biggest holes on the team, LG and RT, or it will likely be another long season.


It is water under the bridge!

I think Bolles will be better this year. Last season his issue was being penalized. But, from what I've seen on PFF, when he was actually blocking without the penalties, he wasn't doing that poorly. I'm optimistic for him. I was hoping there was a FA answer for RT.

BroncoJoe
03-17-2018, 10:36 AM
It is water under the bridge!

I think Bolles will be better this year. Last season his issue was being penalized. But, from what I've seen on PFF, when he was actually blocking without the penalties, he wasn't doing that poorly. I'm optimistic for him. I was hoping there was a FA answer for RT.

Wait. Is this a generally positive post?

#ItsTheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt

Tned
03-17-2018, 10:38 AM
It is water under the bridge!

I think Bolles will be better this year. Last season his issue was being penalized. But, from what I've seen on PFF, when he was actually blocking without the penalties, he wasn't doing that poorly. I'm optimistic for him. I was hoping there was a FA answer for RT.

Agreed on Bolles. He held at times to save QB after being beat. I think he'll be better this year.

We've now had among the worst RT play in the league for multiple years. LG only slightly better.

Watson graded (PFF) the 73rd ranked tackle, and gave up the second most sacks, but in ONLY nine games.

Garcia was the ninth worst guard in the league with 34 pressures and four sacks, and he alternated time with Barbre.

Barbre was the 69th rated guard overall and his pass protection rating was worse than Garcia's.

Simple Jaded
03-17-2018, 10:50 AM
After everything I've done for you? I remade you from nothing, you ungrateful wretch!

How dare you?!

I’m the kind of man that made the Eiffel Tower out of steel ... and brawn.

Thunder pounds when I stomp the ground.

#DontPullYourThangOutUnlessYouPlanToBang

Shazam!
03-17-2018, 11:12 AM
I agree with this 100%.

TS didn't have enough time to learn what he needed to learn to survive the blitz and beat it, because teams knew the Broncos OLine was so terrible they didn't even have to send more than 4 or 5 to produce real QB pressure.

When your OLine can't do anything even remotely average, there is no way they can be successful.

I believe Siemien will have a long NFL career. I hope he is never in the AFC.

Another fair point is it was almost guaranteed he would fail. No one coming in here was going to successfully replace PM. Even a broken PM is better than most average QBs.

...and King arent you a Bengals fan too? If so you're very accustomed to terrible QBs. So why be so irate?

TS had an entire offseason of his true rookie year. He then had two seasons of starting. He had more time to learn than most young starting QB's, so this is factually false.

You can't just blame the line - if people go back and rewatch those games (god bless you if you can) you'll see him not stepping up in the pocket, holding onto the ball for too long, never feeling pressure and sliding, etc. There were times where he got sacked when the job did it's job, and that's because he's simply not good. People want to just scream 'the line's bad so it's not his fault' while never understanding that QB's contribute to how a line performs. And his understanding of the game, which was supposed to be a strength, was so great that he never audibled when there was a blitz, and he never recognized one, either.

As far as it being a guarantee that he would fail - I wish you had been around to tell that to his fans the past two seasons, because they surely did not feel that way.

I disavow the Bengals in all ways, shapes, and forms.

I suggest you unfortunately rewatch some of that awfulness on the Line towards the end of last Season and the NYG game and after. Bro they are abysmal. It wasn't until later on towards the end of the Season there was some resemblance of DECENT blocking and pass protectio.

Connor McGovern was a big reason in my opinion. I belueve they are a T away.

Simple Jaded
03-17-2018, 11:17 AM
The market for such an acclaimed Center like Paradis just went up to 4 years/$42 M per with $22 M guaranteed, no C is worth that, especially one as weak as Paradis. The Broncos literally threw a fit when they had to make Miller the highest paid at his position.

The Broncos are not just a T away.

Poet
03-17-2018, 11:19 AM
How dare you?!

I’m the kind of man that made the Eiffel Tower out of steel ... and brawn.

Thunder pounds when I stomp the ground.

#DontPullYourThangOutUnlessYouPlanToBang

Oh, you needed steel to do that? That's embarrassing. I had to teach you how to hashtag! You couldn't even make the family before I put you on! You? You're Javon Walker!

Regarding the line - I just hope we don't overdraft a guard.

Poet
03-17-2018, 11:20 AM
I suggest you unfortunately rewatch some of that awfulness on the Line towards the end of last Season and the NYG game and after. Bro they are abysmal. It wasn't until later on towards the end of the Season there was some resemblance of DECENT blocking and pass protectio.

Connor McGovern was a big reason in my opinion. I belueve they are a T away.

They were in the mid twenties for the line. They were bad. I hate to break this to you, but QB's overcome bad lines all the time. And when your QB has a pocket and doesn't step up into it, or holds onto the ball for too long, two seasons in I might add, with that line, at same point it's fair to realize that he's making a bad situation worse.

Poet
03-17-2018, 11:21 AM
The market for such an acclaimed Center like Paradis just went up to 4 years/$42 M per with $22 M guaranteed, no C is worth that, especially one as weak as Paradis. The Broncos literally threw a fit when they had to make Miller the highest paid at his position.

The Broncos are not just a T away.

He's one of the better centers in the league, you fool!

Nomad
03-17-2018, 11:21 AM
Oh, you needed steel to do that? That's embarrassing. I had to teach you how to hashtag! You couldn't even make the family before I put you on! You? You're Javon Walker!

Regarding the QBs - I just hope we don't overreach for a QB.

I agree.

Simple Jaded
03-17-2018, 11:22 AM
I had to make the steel myself, it was the 1580’s, I was very young.

Poet
03-17-2018, 11:24 AM
I had to make the steel myself, it was the 1580’s, I was very young.

You only can make what your god allows, you peasant!

Simple Jaded
03-17-2018, 11:26 AM
He's one of the better centers in the league, you fool!

$10.250 M per, if what you say is true *barf* he’s going to want ... what? $13 M per?

Be reasonable. You’re being irrational.

Simple Jaded
03-17-2018, 11:27 AM
You only can make what your god allows, you peasant!

I make a good enemy.

Poet
03-17-2018, 11:44 AM
$10.250 M per, if what you say is true *barf* he’s going to want ... what? $13 M per?

Be reasonable. You’re being irrational.

He'll take his deal and he'll like it.

Tned
03-17-2018, 11:44 AM
They were in the mid twenties for the line. They were bad. I hate to break this to you, but QB's overcome bad lines all the time. And when your QB has a pocket and doesn't step up into it, or holds onto the ball for too long, two seasons in I might add, with that line, at same point it's fair to realize that he's making a bad situation worse.

Line overall, yes, but RT was FAR worse, and LG was horrendous, so the whole "he should step up" criticism is flawed.

The stats confirm what our eyes saw, which is the pass protection was putrid.

Poet
03-17-2018, 11:46 AM
Line overall, yes, but RT was FAR worse, and LG was horrendous, so the whole "he should step up" criticism is flawed.

The stats confirm what our eyes saw, which is the pass protection was putrid.

We saw him fail to step up when he could. Contrary to popular belief, the line didn't fail on every single play, Tned. I'm sorry, the stats show the line was bad - that doesn't show that he didn't have his failings when he could have succeeded. That's not how that works. I'm not going to rehash it - it's futile. Neither of us will budge. He's not on the team anymore. It means nothing.

Tned
03-17-2018, 11:53 AM
We saw him fail to step up when he could. Contrary to popular belief, the line didn't fail on every single play, Tned. I'm sorry, the stats show the line was bad - that doesn't show that he didn't have his failings when he could have succeeded. That's not how that works. I'm not going to rehash it - it's futile. Neither of us will budge. He's not on the team anymore. It means nothing.

It seems to matter to some. ;)

As I said, I'm far more concerned with the impact on this year if they don't fix the two biggest holes of the team, RT and LG.

topscribe
03-17-2018, 12:03 PM
It seems to matter to some. ;)

As I said, I'm far more concerned with the impact on this year if they don't fix the two biggest holes of the team, RT and LG.
I don't think guard is a problem for them this year. The draft is deep at that position, and
it shouldn't be any problem for them to end up with Hernandez or an equivalent. Tackle is
a different story. Players at that position are nearly as scarce as QBs. But I think that is
almost the sole position of desperation for the Broncos, so I wouldn't put it past Elway to
end up with at least a serviceable RT. After all, he snagged Leary from out of nowhere
last year.

Shazam!
03-17-2018, 01:13 PM
I hate to break this to you, but QB's overcome bad lines all the time...

See Manning, Peyton in 2015.

Shazam!
03-17-2018, 02:53 PM
I hate to break this to you, but QB's overcome bad lines all the time...

See Manning, Peyton in 2015.

Also:

Tyler P. came in later on in the year and solidified the OLine almost by himself. He was the unsung MVP of 2015, and had he never landed in Denver before the trade deadline, his impact at Tackle cant be diminished. But Peyton was wrecked by that time anyway. He made all the difference.

TXBRONC
03-17-2018, 03:52 PM
Great! So he's trash because he's a trash backup, too! Wonderful. Excellent point. He's ******* trash, most backups are trash, most seventh rounders are trash, he's a trash starter, he's trash.

Trash this week! Trash next month! Next year! Next Decade! He's ******* trash!

You forgot to put in a hashtag. Just sayin.

dogfish
03-17-2018, 10:32 PM
They were in the mid twenties for the line. They were bad. I hate to break this to you, but QB's overcome bad lines all the time. And when your QB has a pocket and doesn't step up into it, or holds onto the ball for too long, two seasons in I might add, with that line, at same point it's fair to realize that he's making a bad situation worse.

no worries about that now. . . just wait until you see how masterfully your football savior, case keenum, navigates the pocket. . . ;)


as for paradis, they can let him walk next year, and reap a nice compensatory pick. . . mcgovern is ready to hold down the fort. . . as for right tackle, i still assume they'll dredge up some horrible vet, but keep an eye on cyrus kouandijdioreo. . . he's a former high draft pick who has all the skills, and is still a young guy. . . if he has his head on straight now, he might end up being the guy. . . as barren as the tackle market is, they could probably do worse than try to develop cyrus. . .

i'd be more than fine with drafting nelson, and likely putting one spot on the line on lockdown for the next decade-plus. . .

Poet
03-17-2018, 10:35 PM
no worries about that now. . . just wait until you see how masterfully your football savior, case keenum, navigates the pocket. . . ;)


as for paradis, they can let him walk next year, and reap a nice compensatory pick. . . mcgovern is ready to hold down the fort. . . as for right tackle, i still assume they'll dredge up some horrible vet, but keep an eye on cyrus kouandijdioreo. . . he's a former high draft pick who has all the skills, and is still a young guy. . . if he has his head on straight now, he might end up being the guy. . . as barren as the tackle market is, they could probably do worse than try to develop cyrus. . .

i'd be more than fine with drafting nelson, and likely putting one spot on the line on lockdown for the next decade-plus. . .

I can't wait to have a great line with no QB. We can be the next Browns!

Simple Jaded
03-17-2018, 10:47 PM
He'll take his deal and he'll like it.

Of course he’ll like his deal.

What C wouldn’t like to get paid like the 2nd best LT in the league?

dogfish
03-17-2018, 10:50 PM
I can't wait to have a great line with no QB. We can be the next Browns!

oh, calm down already. . . chicken and egg. . . if you actually do put a great line and strong run game in place, it's much easier to not only develop a young QB behind them, but also easier to get solid play from a guy who isn't a top ten QB. . . the jags got to the AFCCG with freakin' bortles. . . the titans won a game with mariotta, the vikes went to the championship game with mr. keenum, and foles won the super bowl. . . with or without a QB, you really need a deep, balanced roster to win titles these days. . . that's why you draft to get the best players, not just to fill all your immediate holes. . . if you don't believe any of the available QBs at #5 can be a 15-year guy, then take nelson, or chubb, or fitzpatrick, or move back and get more picks. . . you can't force it-- when you do that, you really increase your odds of trading up to get a paxton lynch. . . the front office needs to be patient and make the best possible picks they can-- this draft should absolutely re-stock our depth for the next 5-8 years , if they get it right. . . keenum's contract allows them the luxury of drafting a QB high or not, which in turns lets them see how the board falls, and truly draft BPAs. . . they also have enough picks to move around and grab whichever of the second tier rookie QBs they want, and can still come back with a first next year if need be. . . i just need them to find some real talent this time. . . we need a lot more production from this class as a whole than we've gotten from recent classes, whether a top QB is among them or not. . .

Poet
03-17-2018, 10:53 PM
You're right, we can be the Cowboys and do nothing with that line and average QB! Woooooohooooooo!

We don't have the Jags D. BPA isn't going to build that roster in time. That was the point - it was either a hard approach with the best QB on the market, or a rebuild/build a strong D with a game manager QB whose contract isn't a burden on you. What you just typed out is my point - all we've done is limit ourselves to hoping that we contend weakly, like the Titans, or that our defense can overcome a limited QB, like the Jags had hoped. And, the Eagles also enjoyed homefield advantage, thanks largely to their legitimate QB.

Simple Jaded
03-17-2018, 10:53 PM
I just did a quick fact check about Denver’s salary moves and found some truly disturbing shit.

Menelik Watson $7.2 M
Todd Davis $4 M

Aqib Talib $11 M

Also, CK is the highest paid player on Denver ‘18 roster. Fuuuuuuuck me!

Simple Jaded
03-17-2018, 10:57 PM
Max Garcia $2 M
Paradis $2.9 M
Watson $7.2M
Davis $4.0 M
That’s $16 M in marginal or easily replaceable players, not counting CK

Talib = $11 M, how the **** do they sell that and get away with it?

dogfish
03-17-2018, 10:59 PM
You're right, we can be the Cowboys and do nothing with that line and average QB! Woooooohooooooo!

We don't have the Jags D.

and you'd rather be the redskins, and trade all the picks for a QB who ends up busting? cuz that's on the board, too. . . don't get me wrong, i'm fine with rosen/darnold/mayfield at five IF one of them is there, and the FO loves the guy. . . i don't know that one of them will be, though. . . i tend to think barkley and three of the top four QBs will go before us-- and i will burn shit if we take josh allen at five. . . i absolutely wouldn't trade up, with as barren as our roster already is of young talent-- not unless they thing one of those guys is andy luck, and we see how well he's fared with no talent around him. . . i don't think any of those guys are close to luck as prospects, personally. . .

topscribe
03-17-2018, 11:02 PM
Max Garcia $2 M
Paradis $2.9 M
Watson $7.2M
Davis $4.0 M
That’s $16 M in marginal or easily replaceable players, not counting CK

Talib = $11 M, how the **** do they sell that and get away with it?
Well, I don't count Paradis as a marginal player. He is a very good center, IMO.
Davis should maybe be a backup. The others should be jettisoned, IMO.

But Talib is in the twilight of his career, and Roby is the younger. Roby is ready. My
concern was, who would replace Roby? But that guy we just signed has been a
starter, I understand, so maybe. But if they don't come up with a good #3, then
they have seriously erred and will pay for it.

Poet
03-17-2018, 11:02 PM
and you'd rather be the redskins, and trade all the picks for a QB who ends up busting? cuz that's on the board, too. . . don't get me wrong, i'm fine with rosen/darnold/mayfield at five IF one of them is there, and the FO loves the guy. . . i don't know that one of them will be, though. . . i tend to think barkley and three of the top four QBs will go before us-- and i will burn shit if we take josh allen at five. . . i absolutely wouldn't trade up, with as barren as our roster already is of young talent-- not unless they thing one of those guys is andy luck, and we see how well he's fared with no talent around him. . . i don't think any of those guys are close to luck as prospects, personally. . .

No. I'd rather be the team drafting a QB and developing him properly. Like the Rams, Eagles, and Texans have recently showed is still very much a thing. Or, you know, if you have to trade up, let's not act like everyone in the NFL was in love with either Goff, Watson, or Wentz. After the fact we act like they were sure fire candidates.

Simple Jaded
03-17-2018, 11:29 PM
Well, I don't count Paradis as a marginal player. He is a very good center, IMO.
Davis should maybe be a backup. The others should be jettisoned, IMO.

But Talib is in the twilight of his career, and Roby is the younger. Roby is ready. My
concern was, who would replace Roby? But that guy we just signed has been a
starter, I understand, so maybe. But if they don't come up with a good #3, then
they have seriously erred and will pay for it.

Paradis is replaceable though.

Btw, they replaced Roby with a nice wife beater who is a whopping 2 years younger than Talib.

topscribe
03-17-2018, 11:33 PM
Paradis is replaceable though.

Btw, they replaced Roby with a nice wife beater who is a whopping 2 years younger than Talib.
For a far cheaper price. I don't know anything about the guy, though. I don't like woman beaters.

Simple Jaded
03-17-2018, 11:35 PM
For a far cheaper price. I don't know anything about the guy, though. I don't like woman beaters.

To be fair, the Charges were dropped because she wouldn’t cooperate with the investigation, so that’s supposed to mean that it didn’t happen and he’s a great Bronco. Also, it was just his girlfriend if that makes people feel better, the mother of his 1-year-old son.

topscribe
03-17-2018, 11:38 PM
To be fair, the Charges were dropped because she wouldn’t cooperate with the investigation, so that’s supposed to mean that it didn’t happen and he’s a great Bronco. Also, it was just his girlfriend if that makes people feel better, the mother of his 1-year-old son.
Well, I don't know about all that. I'm not familiar with it.

But let's hope he's very good. A team without three good CBs is going to get scorched.
As you like to say, it's science . . .

Simple Jaded
03-17-2018, 11:41 PM
Well, I don't know about all that. I'm not familiar with it.

But let's hope he's very good. A team without three good CBs is going to get scorched.
As you like to say, it's science . . .

I hope he gets cut. I am no moral authority on anything, I just wanna point out that Denver replaced a so-called “Thug” with a wife beater (allegedly).

They had a far better CB in to visit the next day and let him leave, he went to NE next, perhaps he couldn’t pass physical.

VonDoom
03-22-2018, 03:13 PM
Interesting look at the details leading up to Siemian getting traded. Falls under the category of “these guys are human and sometimes we forget that”

http://amp.si.com/nfl/2018/03/22/trevor-siemian-trade-broncos-vikings?__twitter_impression=true

Buff
03-22-2018, 03:44 PM
Interesting look at the details leading up to Siemian getting traded. Falls under the category of “these guys are human and sometimes we forget that”

http://amp.si.com/nfl/2018/03/22/trevor-siemian-trade-broncos-vikings?__twitter_impression=true

I'm going to Punta Mita in June!

Buff
03-22-2018, 03:54 PM
Interesting look at the details leading up to Siemian getting traded. Falls under the category of “these guys are human and sometimes we forget that”

http://amp.si.com/nfl/2018/03/22/trevor-siemian-trade-broncos-vikings?__twitter_impression=true

Made me a little sad that nobody from Denver reached out to him after the trade. Seems like he felt it to be enough of a slight to mention in the story.

Cugel
03-22-2018, 04:11 PM
You're right, we can be the Cowboys and do nothing with that line and average QB! Woooooohooooooo!

We don't have the Jags D. BPA isn't going to build that roster in time. That was the point - it was either a hard approach with the best QB on the market, or a rebuild/build a strong D with a game manager QB whose contract isn't a burden on you. What you just typed out is my point - all we've done is limit ourselves to hoping that we contend weakly, like the Titans, or that our defense can overcome a limited QB, like the Jags had hoped. And, the Eagles also enjoyed homefield advantage, thanks largely to their legitimate QB.

The Eagles traded up to #2 to get Wentz, only nobody is as stupid as the Browns were then (they fired that GM who made that trade), so assuming there is a Wentz on the board at #2 this season (and there doesn't seem to be), then he's not getting past #2 in all probability.

And "BPA won't rebuild the roster in time" in time for what? Nobody with a brain thinks the Broncos are going to compete for a SB this season. So, we're talking about 2019 at best, and more probably 2020 before they could, at the earliest, hope to win another SB.

But, that is ONLY if they add about 10 new starters to the roster (and probably significantly more than that ) between now and then. And the 5th pick of the draft is where they better start rolling.

They need immediate impact players in 2018, 2019 drafts, PLUS they need Keenum to turn out to be the QB he was last year. If all that happens then maybe they can compete with Pittsburgh or NE. If not they won't.

The idea that Josh Allen is going to rescue the franchise in two years? Andrew Luck couldn't rescue Indy because of the crap players he had around him, and nobody with any sense thinks Allen is remotely as good a prospect as Andrew Luck was.

Hawgdriver
03-22-2018, 04:30 PM
Made me a little sad that nobody from Denver reached out to him after the trade. Seems like he felt it to be enough of a slight to mention in the story.

Classy.

Mike
03-23-2018, 08:02 AM
No. I'd rather be the team drafting a QB and developing him properly. Like the Rams, Eagles, and Texans have recently showed is still very much a thing. Or, you know, if you have to trade up, let's not act like everyone in the NFL was in love with either Goff, Watson, or Wentz. After the fact we act like they were sure fire candidates.

Or you can be the team that drafts a QB with no protection and ruin him. That story has played out many times in the NFL. Very few come in and develop when they are expected to carry the team. Any QB drafted will get ruined behind our oline.

Davii
03-23-2018, 08:44 AM
Or you can be the team that drafts a QB with no protection and ruin him. That story has played out many times in the NFL. Very few come in and develop when they are expected to carry the team. Any QB drafted will get ruined behind our oline.

Until we see what our line will be I don't think we can assume this.

Tned
03-23-2018, 09:34 AM
Interesting look at the details leading up to Siemian getting traded. Falls under the category of “these guys are human and sometimes we forget that”

http://amp.si.com/nfl/2018/03/22/trevor-siemian-trade-broncos-vikings?__twitter_impression=true

That was a good read.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-23-2018, 09:37 AM
I think our quarterbacks made our line look worst than it was

BroncoJoe
03-23-2018, 09:41 AM
I think our quarterbacks made our line look worst than it was

This. They weren't world-beaters, but our QB's certainly didn't help.

Cugel
03-23-2018, 10:33 AM
Until we see what our line will be I don't think we can assume this.

We saw it last year! It hasn't changed any so far. NO RT in FA, NO RG in FA (assuming they move Leary back to LG).

Unless they find a T and G in the draft your RT for 2018 is . . . . (drum-roll) . . . . Menelik Watson!

The Broncos just guaranteed his $7.1m for 2018 last Saturday.

And the RG is who? Max Garcia, Billy Turner, or JJ Dielman. Those are the G's on the roster.

So, if you give away your draft to move up and take a QB, that will be the OL for 2018.

LT Bolles
LG Leary
C Paradis (assuming they keep him, he's a restricted FA, if not then Connor McGovern)
RG ??? Billy Turner? Max Garcia can't play RG which is why they moved Leary to RG last year.
RT Menelik Watson.

Urf. :tsk:

Welcome to the NFL rookie QB! Here's the ball. Better learn to throw it quick!

topscribe
03-23-2018, 02:31 PM
We saw it last year! It hasn't changed any so far. NO RT in FA, NO RG in FA (assuming they move Leary back to LG).

Unless they find a T and G in the draft your RT for 2018 is . . . . (drum-roll) . . . . Menelik Watson!

The Broncos just guaranteed his $7.1m for 2018 last Saturday.

And the RG is who? Max Garcia, Billy Turner, or JJ Dielman. Those are the G's on the roster.

So, if you give away your draft to move up and take a QB, that will be the OL for 2018.

LT Bolles
LG Leary
C Paradis (assuming they keep him, he's a restricted FA, if not then Connor McGovern)
RG ??? Billy Turner? Max Garcia can't play RG which is why they moved Leary to RG last year.
RT Menelik Watson.

Urf. :tsk:

Welcome to the NFL rookie QB! Here's the ball. Better learn to throw it quick!
Isn't Turner a tackle? I think most have him taking over RT and McGovern in at RG.
That would seem to make more sense, wouldn't it?

Shazam!
03-23-2018, 02:38 PM
I cannot see Watson a Starter. And he will bring down whoever is next to him, presumably McGovern who looks like a solid starter.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-23-2018, 03:01 PM
I want to see Nelson and Bolles play on the same side

topscribe
03-23-2018, 03:04 PM
I want to see Nelson and Bolles play on the same side
Either that, or Leary back next to Bolles and Nelson on the right.

Nelson could manhandle the right all by himself, just about . . . :nod:

Tned
03-23-2018, 03:06 PM
I think our quarterbacks made our line look worst than it was

I think our QBs made our line look better than it was.

Hard for a QB to cause a RT to stand still and let a rusher wink at the RT as he goes by the statue -- aka RT.

Poet
03-23-2018, 03:16 PM
The Eagles traded up to #2 to get Wentz, only nobody is as stupid as the Browns were then (they fired that GM who made that trade), so assuming there is a Wentz on the board at #2 this season (and there doesn't seem to be), then he's not getting past #2 in all probability.

And "BPA won't rebuild the roster in time" in time for what? Nobody with a brain thinks the Broncos are going to compete for a SB this season. So, we're talking about 2019 at best, and more probably 2020 before they could, at the earliest, hope to win another SB.

But, that is ONLY if they add about 10 new starters to the roster (and probably significantly more than that ) between now and then. And the 5th pick of the draft is where they better start rolling.

They need immediate impact players in 2018, 2019 drafts, PLUS they need Keenum to turn out to be the QB he was last year. If all that happens then maybe they can compete with Pittsburgh or NE. If not they won't.

The idea that Josh Allen is going to rescue the franchise in two years? Andrew Luck couldn't rescue Indy because of the crap players he had around him, and nobody with any sense thinks Allen is remotely as good a prospect as Andrew Luck was.

There were plenty of questions about Wentz coming out of the draft - please do not act like the consensus was that he was going to be an all-pro, because back then there wasn't a consensus on him. That's revisionist history.

BPA won't rebuild the line in time for what? Exactly what mystery did you miss in that post? Do you just read the post, or do you read what the post was responding to?

Luck rescued the Colts from the overall pick to making the playoffs in three or four straight seasons in a row. Had that front office failed to produce anything in drafts, development of players, decent coaching personnel, and FA, Luck would have at least made a SB appearance by now. Also, don't just hinge it upon on QB like Allen.

Poet
03-23-2018, 03:17 PM
I think our quarterbacks made our line look worst than it was

They did. There were multiple sacks where the QB held onto the ball too long, failed to run when that was available as an option, or failed to step up in a formed pocket. Lord knows none of them were making great reads at the LoS and using audibles to hold defenses at bay.

Tned
03-23-2018, 03:31 PM
This. They weren't world-beaters, but our QB's certainly didn't help.

Based on Denver doing nothing in free agency, and if they don't get Nelson at 5, we may get a chance to see if you guys are right. Personally, I don't want to see Keenum playing behind the same line, but I admit it would be interesting to see what happens.

topscribe
03-23-2018, 03:37 PM
Based on Denver doing nothing in free agency, and if they don't get Nelson at 5, we may get a chance to see if you guys are right. Personally, I don't want to see Keenum playing behind the same line, but I admit it would be interesting to see what happens.
No matter what Denver does in the 1st round, I wouldn't be surprised to see them go after
Hernandez in the 2nd, assuming he's available.

Tned
03-23-2018, 03:39 PM
No matter what Denver does in the 1st round, I wouldn't be surprised to see them go after
Hernandez in the 2nd, assuming he's available.

As their two biggest needs entering this offseason were LG ant RT, I would love to see them take G and T with their first two picks.

topscribe
03-23-2018, 04:01 PM
As their two biggest needs entering this offseason were LG ant RT, I would love to see them take G and T with their first two picks.
Yes, I mentioned elsewhere about my sweet dreams of taking Nelson and then McGlinchey.

Oh well, one can dream, can't one? :ohwell:

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-23-2018, 04:04 PM
I think our QBs made our line look better than it was.

Hard for a QB to cause a RT to stand still and let a rusher wink at the RT as he goes by the statue -- aka RT.

RT was a soup sandwich without question, as was Trevor’s lack of stepping up into the pocket/running backwards/holding the ball too long.

topscribe
03-23-2018, 04:10 PM
RT was a soup sandwich without question, as was Trevor’s lack of stepping up into the pocket/running backwards/holding the ball too long.
To be fair, some of Trevor's backward movement was caused by the collapse of the interior line.
Garcia, for instance, was a matador . . .

Poet
03-23-2018, 04:18 PM
RT was a soup sandwich without question, as was Trevor’s lack of stepping up into the pocket/running backwards/holding the ball too long.

He caused a lot of the problems and could never help the situation out. I'm hoping that CK with be the antithesis to him in this regard.

Cugel
03-23-2018, 05:05 PM
Based on Denver doing nothing in free agency, and if they don't get Nelson at 5, we may get a chance to see if you guys are right. Personally, I don't want to see Keenum playing behind the same line, but I admit it would be interesting to see what happens.

Obviously the same thing would happen to Keenum as happened to Siemian. Injury. :coffee:

Only they would be wasting $25m if they did that, rather than $660,000.

Cugel
03-23-2018, 05:08 PM
Isn't Turner a tackle? I think most have him taking over RT and McGovern in at RG.
That would seem to make more sense, wouldn't it?

He's listed on the depth chart as a G, but who the hell knows at this point? Basically, they have no RG outside Ron Leary or Connor McGovern, who might be the starting C this year if Paradis gets some ridiculous offer and the Broncos don't match (which could happen).

In any case McGovern is the ONLY quality backup for the entire OL, so they better get somebody else in the draft.

Cugel
03-23-2018, 05:10 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Al Wilson 4 Mayor View Post
RT was a soup sandwich without question, as was Trevor’s lack of stepping up into the pocket/running backwards/holding the ball too long.


Pocket? Bwa-hahahahaha!

"Pocket? You're talking about POCKET?? "Stepping up into the Pocket"??? Don't talk about Pocket!"

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-23-2018, 05:35 PM
To be fair, some of Trevor's backward movement was caused by the collapse of the interior line.
Garcia, for instance, was a matador . . .

I’m aware of that, yet there were times he alone was responsible for it, including needlessly throwing off his back foot.

Top, I believe I’m being objective. I defended him most of the season, but there came a point when it was obvious he was hurting the team and no one else was to be blamed

Tned
03-23-2018, 05:55 PM
RT was a soup sandwich without question, as was Trevor’s lack of stepping up into the pocket/running backwards/holding the ball too long.

What I posted a week or so ago. Dispelling some of the myth of their being a pocket for him to step in to.


Agreed on Bolles. He held at times to save QB after being beat. I think he'll be better this year.

We've now had among the worst RT play in the league for multiple years. LG only slightly better.

Watson graded (PFF) the 73rd ranked tackle, and gave up the second most sacks, but in ONLY nine games.

Garcia was the ninth worst guard in the league with 34 pressures and four sacks, and he alternated time with Barbre.

Barbre was the 69th rated guard overall and his pass protection rating was worse than Garcia's.

Garcia was 55 out of 61 guards in pass blocking efficiency.

Leary was 13th, so it's hard to blame Garcia's woes on Siemian or it would have effected Leary as well. The guards combined to give up 7 sacks and 71 pressures.

Watson/Barbre/Stephenson/Turner combined for an even work pass blocking efficiency at Right tackle, lower rank and combined to give up 17 sacks and 68 pressures. Boles on the other side gave up 8 sacks and 51 pressures.

That's 190 pressures 567 drop backs that the Broncos QB's took or them being pressured one out of three drop backs.

So, while nobody is going to argue we had great QB play or that any of the Broncos QBs were able to overcome the horrendous line and unimaginative play calling, it's simply a denial of facts and visual evidence to attempt to make any case that the pass blocking wasn't horrendous.

Tned
03-23-2018, 05:58 PM
Obviously the same thing would happen to Keenum as happened to Siemian. Injury. :coffee:

Only they would be wasting $25m if they did that, rather than $660,000.

Exactly. Hence the reason the two greatest offseason holes that needed, and still need, to be fixed are LG and RT. I'm making an assumption that Boles will be better in his second year and also that some of his problems was playing next to an incompentent LG and sometimes having to choose to block inside to cover Garcia's guy and let his own go.

Poet
03-23-2018, 06:02 PM
The problem is that this doesn't do what you think it does. The line was bad, but that doesn't mean that there weren't pockets from time to time. The line didn't fail at blocking every single snap - the line was ranked overall in the low 20's, which is bad, but not so bad that it failed every time. And in the gameday threads you can find examples of the fans, watching the game, in real time, seeing him hold onto the ball too long and not step up in the pocket. You're not dispelling a myth by listing stats that the line was bad - you're evidencing the fact that the line was bad.

If you have pressure on the edge, for instance, and the pocket holds in the middle, you can step up into the rest of the pocket. That's one of the ways that guys like Manning and Brady, with almost no mobility, can get away from pressure, and that's why you need pressure up the middle to keep a pass rush consistent (which we know from the other end of the analysis with our defense).

Surely, you do not mean to suggest that there was never a pocket to step up into, and that our QB's never failed to step up into the pocket?

Mike
03-23-2018, 06:10 PM
The problem is that this doesn't do what you think it does. The line was bad, but that doesn't mean that there weren't pockets from time to time. The line didn't fail at blocking every single snap - the line was ranked overall in the low 20's, which is bad, but not so bad that it failed every time. And in the gameday threads you can find examples of the fans, watching the game, in real time, seeing him hold onto the ball too long and not step up in the pocket. You're not dispelling a myth by listing stats that the line was bad - you're evidencing the fact that the line was bad.

If you have pressure on the edge, for instance, and the pocket holds in the middle, you can step up into the rest of the pocket. That's one of the ways that guys like Manning and Brady, with almost no mobility, can get away from pressure, and that's why you need pressure up the middle to keep a pass rush consistent (which we know from the other end of the analysis with our defense).

Surely, you do not mean to suggest that there was never a pocket to step up into, and that our QB's never failed to step up into the pocket?

There were pockets. The line had some solid blocking (other than RT). But the problem was that you never knew when it was going to fold and which side would fold. Hard for a QB to know when to slide/where to slide when the pressure can cause any part of the line to collapse.

Young QBs cant read defenses and move them around like guys like Brady and Manning can. More often they take the hit, thrown an INT, run backwards, etc. If it happens enough they develop bad habits and get gun shy.

Poet
03-23-2018, 06:21 PM
There were pockets. The line had some solid blocking (other than RT). But the problem was that you never knew when it was going to fold and which side would fold. Hard for a QB to know when to slide/where to slide when the pressure can cause any part of the line to collapse.

Young QBs cant read defenses and move them around like guys like Brady and Manning can. More often they take the hit, thrown an INT, run backwards, etc. If it happens enough they develop bad habits and get gun shy.

Right, there were pockets. And they were not consistent. However, there's a certain point in time where if the choice is to move up into the pocket, which might fail, or hold onto the ball/stay where you are/ etc. you have to go with what the best option is. I would have been more forgiving except for the fact that there was never any improvement from either Lynch or TS.

In regards to moving the defense around and reading defenses: the only QB on the roster who started a game that can make that excuse was PL. Brock was/is a veteran, and TS was on this second year of starting and third year in the league. It is what it is. If nothing else, in an offense that was predisposed to shorter routes for a variety of reasons, you should be able to get rid of the ball. And let's not kid ourselves, we've seen tackles get away with not giving up a sack because of something the QB does, whether it's a scramble, or a step up, etc. Some of the linemen were probably less than pleased with sack stats being put onto their name, too.

dogfish
03-23-2018, 06:21 PM
the line sucked last year, AND the quarterbacks sucked. . . let's not act like those things are mutually exclusive. . .

the two enjoy a symbiotic relationship. . . we need both to be better this year if the O as a whole is going to improve to any noticeable degree. . . the presumptive upgrade at QB is already in the building. . . it looks like we're down to the draft to improve the line, so i think it's perfectly reasonable to expect an OL early. . . that doesn't stop them from trying to develop billy turner if they want, but god save them if he ends up being the only plan. . .

Tned
03-23-2018, 06:24 PM
There were pockets. The line had some solid blocking (other than RT). But the problem was that you never knew when it was going to fold and which side would fold. Hard for a QB to know when to slide/where to slide when the pressure can cause any part of the line to collapse.

Young QBs cant read defenses and move them around like guys like Brady and Manning can. More often they take the hit, thrown an INT, run backwards, etc. If it happens enough they develop bad habits and get gun shy.

Bingo. It would be hard for any QB to deal with that unkown, but virtually impossible for young inexperienced QBs. The notion of stepping up is silly, considering how many times pressure came up the middle. Both Boles and RT were beat so often,, and with no reliable pocket to step into, he tended to drift back, which in reality makes things worse.

What was clearly true is that by the 6th or 7th game or so, he was seeing ghosts and totally confused/shell shocked and even when he had time, his throws were bad and rushed, and when he didn't have time, he didn't get it off. On the one hand you can blame it on him for seeing the ghosts and losing confidence, but it would also be very short sighted and be fed by the sour taste/hate that many feel, rather than looking at how bad the line was and what caused him and the other QBs to get shell shocked.

Anyway, the day may come where he gets to step back into a starting role, and we'll see what he's able to do with more experience and/or a line that's simple average, not to mention if he happens to be behind a decent line.

Hawgdriver
03-23-2018, 07:11 PM
the line sucked last year, AND the quarterbacks sucked. . . let's not act like those things are mutually exclusive. . .

the two enjoy a symbiotic relationship. . .

I'm visualizing this as a nat geo documentary with the british narration.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-23-2018, 07:33 PM
What I posted a week or so ago. Dispelling some of the myth of their being a pocket for him to step in to.



Garcia was 55 out of 61 guards in pass blocking efficiency.

Leary was 13th, so it's hard to blame Garcia's woes on Siemian or it would have effected Leary as well. The guards combined to give up 7 sacks and 71 pressures.

Watson/Barbre/Stephenson/Turner combined for an even work pass blocking efficiency at Right tackle, lower rank and combined to give up 17 sacks and 68 pressures. Boles on the other side gave up 8 sacks and 51 pressures.

That's 190 pressures 567 drop backs that the Broncos QB's took or them being pressured one out of three drop backs.

So, while nobody is going to argue we had great QB play or that any of the Broncos QBs were able to overcome the horrendous line and unimaginative play calling, it's simply a denial of facts and visual evidence to attempt to make any case that the pass blocking wasn't horrendous.

I’m not saying it wasn’t bad, I’m saying Trevor didn’t help the situation. I don’t know how else to say it

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-23-2018, 07:35 PM
the line sucked last year, AND the quarterbacks sucked. . . let's not act like those things are mutually exclusive. . .

the two enjoy a symbiotic relationship. . . we need both to be better this year if the O as a whole is going to improve to any noticeable degree. . . the presumptive upgrade at QB is already in the building. . . it looks like we're down to the draft to improve the line, so i think it's perfectly reasonable to expect an OL early. . . that doesn't stop them from trying to develop billy turner if they want, but god save them if he ends up being the only plan. . .

Exactly

topscribe
03-23-2018, 08:00 PM
I’m not saying it wasn’t bad, I’m saying Trevor didn’t help the situation. I don’t know how else to say it
Well, it also can't be dismissed that Trevor was effectively a 2nd year player who was running
for his life and getting beaten to death. Not the ideal situation to break in and develop a
young quarterback.

dogfish
03-23-2018, 08:02 PM
:lol::lol::lol:


alright, you guys both take a lap!

slim
03-23-2018, 08:04 PM
Trevor is the next Tom Brady. Couldn't have been his fault.

Tned
03-23-2018, 08:11 PM
The fact that Denver traded a sixth and are taking on a $10 million cap hit on a possibly over the hill RT that many thought would retire or be cut, tells you a lot about the quality of last year's line.

Poet
03-23-2018, 08:12 PM
Well, it also can't be dismissed that Trevor was effectively a 2nd year player who was running
for his life and getting beaten to death. Not the ideal situation to break in and develop a
young quarterback.

He was a third year player and a second year starter. The fact that he held onto the ball for too long and couldn't move in pockets that did exist contributed to his own demise. He also wasn't there for development - he was there as a placeholder. A bad placeholder who routinely failed to make throws when he did have the time, but a placeholder nonetheless. No one except Kubiak the brilliant and VJ thought the guy was any good...and wait a minute...

Oh crap! Here we go again!

slim
03-23-2018, 08:15 PM
The fact that Denver traded a sixth and are taking on a $10 million cap hit on a possibly over the hill RT that many thought would retire or be cut, tells you a lot about the quality of last year's line.

The fact they paid a journeyman QB handsomely and traded Trevor for a bag of peanuts tells you what they thought about the quality of last year's QB.

Tned
03-23-2018, 08:18 PM
The fact they paid a journeyman QB handsomely and traded Trevor for a bag of peanuts tells you what they thought about the quality of last year's QB.

Nobody has questioned the need to upgrade QBs.

slim
03-23-2018, 08:23 PM
Nobody has questioned the need to upgrade QBs.

Or the OL :noidea:

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
03-23-2018, 08:25 PM
:lol::lol::lol:


alright, you guys both take a lap!

😆😆😆😆

topscribe
03-23-2018, 08:35 PM
He was a third year player and a second year starter. The fact that he held onto the ball for too long and couldn't move in pockets that did exist contributed to his own demise. He also wasn't there for development - he was there as a placeholder. A bad placeholder who routinely failed to make throws when he did have the time, but a placeholder nonetheless. No one except Kubiak the brilliant and VJ thought the guy was any good...and wait a minute...

Oh crap! Here we go again!
That's why I said he's effectively a second-year player.

But I'm not trying to say what a star he was. Just being fair with the facts is all.

It's you people putting words in my mouth and making me out to say what I'm not saying . . .

Tned
03-23-2018, 08:39 PM
Or the OL :noidea:

I know you are better with numbers than words, so I'll let it go.

slim
03-23-2018, 08:48 PM
I know you are better with numbers than words, so I'll let it go.

Open another bottle of wine, killer. It's what you do best.

Tned
03-23-2018, 08:51 PM
Open another bottle of wine, killer. It's what you do best.

🍷..

Poet
03-23-2018, 09:02 PM
That's why I said he's effectively a second-year player.

But I'm not trying to say what a star he was. Just being fair with the facts is all.

It's you people putting words in my mouth and making me out to say what I'm not saying . . .

He wasn't effectively a second year player. He spent a season on the bench, which is a way to develop a player, and then he played for two seasons. That was always a way to couch his deficiencies, and it boggled my mind, especially when he was then compared to actual rookies.

No one puts words in your mouth.

slim
03-23-2018, 09:04 PM
Give it a rest, boys.

He is a back up QB. Always was. Always will be.

Tned
03-23-2018, 09:05 PM
Give it a rest, boys.

He is a back up QB. Always was. Always will be.

Yet, he's still triggering some people on here.

slim
03-23-2018, 09:06 PM
Yet, he's still triggering some people on here.

Tom Brady does that to people.

Poet
03-23-2018, 09:06 PM
He wasn't effectively a second year player. He spent a season on the bench, which is a way to develop a player, and then he played for two seasons. That was always a way to couch his deficiencies, and it boggled my mind, especially when he was then compared to actual rookies.

No one puts words in your mouth.

One of the arguments for Keenum is that if we draft a guy, he gets a year to develop and learn on the sidelines. It's interesting how that somehow was never a benefit to TS, even though he spent time around Peyton Manning of all QB's, was on the practice squad, etc.

Imagine in one scenario TS was a pure raw rookie and he started. Then imagine the real scenario where he was a second year player, which one do you think he would have had more of an advantage.

Poet
03-23-2018, 09:07 PM
Tom Brady does that to people.

As long as it's consenting adults, what he does in his bedroom is his business!

Tned
03-23-2018, 09:09 PM
Tom Brady does that to people.

It's Giselle envy....

topscribe
03-23-2018, 09:16 PM
He wasn't effectively a second year player. He spent a season on the bench, which is a way to develop a player, and then he played for two seasons. That was always a way to couch his deficiencies, and it boggled my mind, especially when he was then compared to actual rookies.

No one puts words in your mouth.
You just did. My point is that a line that has a QB running for his life is not a good situation for a
young QB. Siemian was just the example. You now have me defending Siemian which I was not
doing. Nowhere in my comment did I talk about how good or bad Siemian is. That was putting
words into my mouth.

Poet
03-23-2018, 09:18 PM
You just did. My point is that a line that has a QB running for his life is not a good situation for a
young QB. Siemian was just the example. You now have me defending Siemian which I was not
doing. Nowhere in my comment did I talk about how good or bad Siemian is. That was putting
words into my mouth.

You said that he was effectively a second year player and that's what I disagreed with and substantiated why. That was the point of contention.

topscribe
03-23-2018, 09:22 PM
You said that he was effectively a second year player and that's what I disagreed with and substantiated why. That was the point of contention.
Yes, he effectively was a second-year player. I stand by that, if that is so important to you.
My daddy used to say you can't learn to tend bar by sitting on the other side. Anyone
knowledgeable in football will tell you a player needs reps to develop.

But you glossed over the point of my post to pick at a side comment. Whatever.

slim
03-23-2018, 09:24 PM
MO is effectively a virgin.

Poet
03-23-2018, 09:26 PM
Yes, he effectively was a second-year player. I stand by that, if that is so important to you.
My daddy used to say you can't learn to tend bar by sitting on the other side. Anyone
knowledgeable in football will tell you a player needs reps to develop.

But you glossed over the point of my post to pick at a side comment. Whatever.

You can learn portions of tending the bar by watching how bartenders pour certain drinks, in what order they put the ingredients in, how they deal with customers. Your father's words have some merit to them, but they are not categorically correct. I didn't gloss over your post - the point about him being so raw is important to the conversation because since it was his third year, it was time for him to show that he can overcome adversity and know to step up in the pocket.

I'm sorry that you feel targeted. I'm not trying to be flippant.

topscribe
03-23-2018, 09:29 PM
You can learn portions of tending the bar by watching how bartenders pour certain drinks, in what order they put the ingredients in, how they deal with customers. Your father's words have some merit to them, but they are not categorically correct. I didn't gloss over your post - the point about him being so raw is important to the conversation because since it was his third year, it was time for him to show that he can overcome adversity and know to step up in the pocket.

I'm sorry that you feel targeted. I'm not trying to be flippant.
My father owned a bar. And I played quarterback. What would you like to know?

Poet
03-23-2018, 09:31 PM
My father owned a bar. And I played quarterback. What would you like to know?

Note that you did not dispute the points about what you can learn about watching. My father was an English professor - he was brilliant but he did not know everything about the English language, the works of English Literature, etc. Nor was he infallible. You played quarterback. I'm very happy for you. That doesn't make you an authority anymore than anyone else. The attempt to be authoritative was nice, though.

topscribe
03-23-2018, 09:37 PM
Note that you did not dispute the points about what you can learn about watching. My father was an English professor - he was brilliant but he did not know everything about the English language, the works of English Literature, etc. Nor was he infallible. You played quarterback. I'm very happy for you. That doesn't make you an authority anymore than anyone else. The attempt to be authoritative was nice, though.
Okay. So you tell my father about tending bar and me about quarterbacking. Meanwhile, I will
tell you all about how to be a lawyer. You see, you're doing with me just what you did with
Tned a short while ago. You make superfluous representations of what another says. I did not
come close to saying what you have been implying what I said, and this post of yours is a case
in point.

But I'm not carrying this any further. Have a good night.

Poet
03-23-2018, 09:42 PM
Okay. So you tell my father about tending bar and me about quarterbacking. Meanwhile, I will
tell you all about how to be a lawyer. You see, you're doing with me just what you did with
Tned a short while ago. You make superfluous representations of what another says. I did not
come close to saying what you have been implying what I said, and this post of yours is a case
in point.

But I'm not carrying this any further. Have a good night.

If you think you can't learn anything from watching another person work then I don't know what to do for you other than politely say you're wrong. This isn't about your father, this is about learning and experience and the values you can get out of it. They actually make us learn the theory of law before they even let us try to get a 711 license. I didn't accuse you of saying something that you didn't say - I simply said that your point was wrong. That's not doing anything wrong or horrible, Top. You're clearly upset. I'm sorry that you're upset. But, a guy who spends a year in the league with veterans, practices, etc. has a big leg up on another guy who hasn't. That's why it's wrong to say 'he was effectively a rookie' because no, he wasn't.

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 10:16 PM
My father owned a bar. And I played quarterback. What would you like to know?

Do you still have your leather helmet?

topscribe
03-23-2018, 10:50 PM
Do you still have your leather helmet?
It hung above my daddy's bar until one night my brother-in-law got blitzed and used it as a beer glass . . .

Simple Jaded
03-23-2018, 10:56 PM
It hung above my daddy's bar until one night my brother-in-law got blitzed and used it as a beer glass . . .

Can’t pick your BIL’s, one of mine is a douchecanoe of the highest order.

topscribe
03-23-2018, 11:32 PM
If you think you can't learn anything from watching another person work then I don't know what to do for you other than politely say you're wrong. This isn't about your father, this is about learning and experience and the values you can get out of it. They actually make us learn the theory of law before they even let us try to get a 711 license. I didn't accuse you of saying something that you didn't say - I simply said that your point was wrong. That's not doing anything wrong or horrible, Top. You're clearly upset. I'm sorry that you're upset. But, a guy who spends a year in the league with veterans, practices, etc. has a big leg up on another guy who hasn't. That's why it's wrong to say 'he was effectively a rookie' because no, he wasn't.
I'm not upset. See, you have been assuming all night, and you haven't yet let up. But since
your daddy was an English scholar, you understand the word "semantics," right? Well that's
what we're engaged in right now. I am making a statement, and you are responding to what
you think I'm saying, and it's not the same thing.

But it's all good, my friend. Just not important enough to continue the pissing contest we've
found ourselves in. As I see it, we're both right. We're just not talking about the same thing. :gossip:


And I didn't say Trevor was effectively a rookie. I said he was effectively a 2nd year player. (See there?)

Cugel
03-23-2018, 11:59 PM
You can learn portions of tending the bar by watching how bartenders pour certain drinks, in what order they put the ingredients in, how they deal with customers.

Oh, for God's sake! That old expression means you can't run a bar if you're sitting at the other side of the bar getting drunk with the patrons! That's why bar-tenders aren't allowed to drink on duty. And if you've ever tried to tend bar by watching other people make drinks you know it's not as easy as it looks.

Poet
03-24-2018, 12:07 AM
Oh, for God's sake! That old expression means you can't run a bar if you're sitting at the other side of the bar getting drunk with the patrons! That's why bar-tenders aren't allowed to drink on duty. And if you've ever tried to tend bar by watching other people make drinks you know it's not as easy as it looks.

Again, I responded to saying within the context of the conversation. You should stop trying to correct me - you don't ever do it.