Is Keenum That Good Or Was Jeff Fisher Just That Bad?

[Cugel]

Now that Keenum is the Broncos starting QB for 2018 it's worth looking at his career. Opinions vary, but this article is interesting. It makes the point that both Jared Goff and Case Keenum suddenly looked great in the season after they were no longer coached by Jeff Fisher.


Are Jared Goff and Case Keenum that good, or was coach Jeff Fisher a QB killer? (https://theundefeated.com/features/nfl-all-22-quarterback-jared-goff-case-keenum/)

There wasn’t a term for when a coach’s poor game plans undermined the skills of his quarterback. Until now …

After 22 seasons as an NFL head coach, five leading the Los Angeles Rams, Jeff Fisher and his staff were fired last season. Like many failed staffs, Fisher’s crew probably convinced themselves that they would have succeeded if they had only found a decent quarterback. By bubble-wrapping their egos in that theory, most coaches enjoy peace of mind for many years. But poor Fisher wasn’t even afforded a year of self-delusion because Jared Goff and Case Keenum became very good NFL quarterbacks almost immediately after being freed from his tutelage.

This season, Goff is 8-3 as the Rams’ starter under the guidance of 31-year-old rookie head coach Sean McVay. Goff was 0-7 a season ago. Keenum ended up in Minnesota with the Vikings, where he assumed the starting role after Sam Bradford, another former Fisher quarterback, got hurt. Keenum has gone 7-2 for his new team. He went 4-5 with Fisher in 2016. But their records aren’t the only evidence of improvement. With a Total QBR of 18.3 last season, rookie Goff was being called the worst quarterback of all time. So far this season, his QBR is 55.2. That places him right at the league average, which is promising for a player in his second season, his first as a Week 1 starter. At the beginning of last season, Goff was deemed unfit to even be a backup by Fisher and crew. He was third on the depth chart.

. . . . .

The Vikings are Keenum’s third team in his five-year career. The first two seasons he spent in Houston, where his QBR was 48.6 and 39.3. Then he went to Fisher’s Rams for a couple of seasons, where he had the two lowest QBRs of his career (34.8 and 37.5).

To be fair to Fisher, he is a defensive-minded coach, so maybe the quarterback failures are not a result of his poor game plans. But hiring a complementary staff is one of the chief responsibilities of a head coach. And Fisher went through three offensive coordinators in his time with the Rams, so it doesn’t seem that he knows how to find the right guy. Goff and Keenum are surrounded by more talent than they had under Fisher, so that could account for some of the quarterbacks’ improvement. That explanation, though, isn’t strong enough to restore Fisher’s reputation. Only winning could do that, and no franchise is going to give the 59-year-old anti-quarterback whisperer a chance now. Which is probably for the best.

I think we have to consider whether the fact that Keenum AND Goff suddenly turned in great seasons the year after the Rams fired Jeff Fisher could be an indication that those players weren't as bad as their stats looked, but that Jeff Fisher's coaching was partly to blame.

I don't know that I totally buy this argument, but it is interesting. Read the article for much more on this.

[CoachChaz]

I think it's more than coincidence that over the past 3 years, Fisher had Foles, Keenum and Goff and after he was fired and 2 of them moved on...Foles won a Super Bowl MVP, Keenum had a great year and played in the NFCCG, Goff threw for almost 4000 yards and 28 TD's and lead the Rams to the playoffs. So, I think the answer lies in the middle. Fisher's system was NOT QB friendly and Keenum is better than what we saw with the Rams.

[Cugel]

I think it's more than coincidence that over the past 3 years, Fisher had Foles, Keenum and Goff and after he was fired and 2 of them moved on...Foles won a Super Bowl MVP, Keenum had a great year and played in the NFCCG, Goff threw for almost 4000 yards and 28 TD's and lead the Rams to the playoffs. So, I think the answer lies in the middle. Fisher's system was NOT QB friendly and Keenum is better than what we saw with the Rams.

Fisher coached well beyond the time when he was burned out. He just wasn't very good.

Whether Keenum is really better than he looked with the Rams (as it now appears that Goff is better than he appeared under Fisher), or whether he just had a career year for the Vikings remains to be seen.

But, it's hard to argue when THREE guys suddenly bloom into good QBs as soon as Fisher left and they got a chance with another coach or another team.

In Foles' case, Philly has a great team, in Keenum's the Vikings have a boat-load of talent like Kyle Rudolph whereas the Broncos don't have a threat at TE.

But, that is not conclusive. What happened to Goff that he suddenly looked like the franchise QB they expected the minute Fisher left town?

Keenum is 30 and after 6 years in the NFL he could simply have figured it out. That does happen after all, it's just that most guys never get the chance to fail for a few years and then get another chance somewhere else. We'll get a chance to see this season, but there's a reasonable chance he'll be about as good for Denver as he was for the Vikings.

[Northman]

I will wait and see, I have my reservations about how good he really is. He's coming to Denver though where he will have some good players around him.

[CoachChaz]

I will wait and see, I have my reservations about how good he really is. He's coming to Denver though where he will have some good players around him.

And with continued FA success and a good draft (God willing), even more talent around him.

[OrangeHoof]

Fisher made his bones as a defensive coach (he was a Buddy Ryan disciple) and his philosophy on offense was largely not to lose games. Heavy ground attack. Lots of passes to tight ends. Makes you rethink what happened with Vince Young (whom Fisher did not want but Bud Adams did).

Keenum was a record-breaking QB at Univ of Houston under Kevin Sumlin who was said to be undersized and a "system QB". He was an undrafted free agent who signed with the Texans and started on their practice squad under Gary Kubiak. He was the third-string QB who mostly ran for his life behind a terrible offensive line. His time with the Rams has already been examined.

IMO, Keenum has "grown up" into an NFL QB. He had to learn what to do / not to do and he still makes panic throws which could upset Elway eventually. But Keenum has learned better how to play within an offense and to trust others to make plays instead of making them himself. He is a bright guy who plays with heart. I like this move over backing up the Brinks truck for Cousins.

I think the Broncos are going to spend 1-5 on their QBOTF but Keenum is there to allow that pick to be brought along slowly. They tried that with Lynch but, apparently, Lynch did not adapt. Unless they see something magical about Josh Allen, I think the Broncos have zeroed in on Rosen or Darnold who come out of the Pac-12. The problem with Mayfield, Rudolph or Jackson is that they are system QBs like Lynch and I suspect Elway doesn't want to start all over again with another Lynch.

[CoachChaz]

Fisher made his bones as a defensive coach (he was a Buddy Ryan disciple) and his philosophy on offense was largely not to lose games. Heavy ground attack. Lots of passes to tight ends. Makes you rethink what happened with Vince Young (whom Fisher did not want but Bud Adams did).

Keenum was a record-breaking QB at Univ of Houston under Kevin Sumlin who was said to be undersized and a "system QB". He was an undrafted free agent who signed with the Texans and started on their practice squad under Gary Kubiak. He was the third-string QB who mostly ran for his life behind a terrible offensive line. His time with the Rams has already been examined.

IMO, Keenum has "grown up" into an NFL QB. He had to learn what to do / not to do and he still makes panic throws which could upset Elway eventually. But Keenum has learned better how to play within an offense and to trust others to make plays instead of making them himself. He is a bright guy who plays with heart. I like this move over backing up the Brinks truck for Cousins.

I think the Broncos are going to spend 1-5 on their QBOTF but Keenum is there to allow that pick to be brought along slowly. They tried that with Lynch but, apparently, Lynch did not adapt. Unless they see something magical about Josh Allen, I think the Broncos have zeroed in on Rosen or Darnold who come out of the Pac-12. The problem with Mayfield, Rudolph or Jackson is that they are system QBs like Lynch and I suspect Elway doesn't want to start all over again with another Lynch.

Imagine if we tailored our system to complement the skills of our QB like other teams do. Amazing concept.

[Broncoknight30]

Well, consider the success of Goff, Foles, and Keenum after Fisher.

Starting to wonder if Vince Young may have been right all along.

[Jsteve01]

Fisher made his bones as a defensive coach (he was a Buddy Ryan disciple) and his philosophy on offense was largely not to lose games. Heavy ground attack. Lots of passes to tight ends. Makes you rethink what happened with Vince Young (whom Fisher did not want but Bud Adams did).

Keenum was a record-breaking QB at Univ of Houston under Kevin Sumlin who was said to be undersized and a "system QB". He was an undrafted free agent who signed with the Texans and started on their practice squad under Gary Kubiak. He was the third-string QB who mostly ran for his life behind a terrible offensive line. His time with the Rams has already been examined.

IMO, Keenum has "grown up" into an NFL QB. He had to learn what to do / not to do and he still makes panic throws which could upset Elway eventually. But Keenum has learned better how to play within an offense and to trust others to make plays instead of making them himself. He is a bright guy who plays with heart. I like this move over backing up the Brinks truck for Cousins.

I think the Broncos are going to spend 1-5 on their QBOTF but Keenum is there to allow that pick to be brought along slowly. They tried that with Lynch but, apparently, Lynch did not adapt. Unless they see something magical about Josh Allen, I think the Broncos have zeroed in on Rosen or Darnold who come out of the Pac-12. The problem with Mayfield, Rudolph or Jackson is that they are system QBs like Lynch and I suspect Elway doesn't want to start all over again with another Lynch.

Imagine if we tailored our system to complement the skills of our QB like other teams do. Amazing concept.


Lol yeah what an idea. I loved Emmanuels quotes on Keenum today. He is a big fan. I just appreciate how well he plays under duress and dont think it is a foregone conclusion that we draft a qb at 5 just because Keenums deal was short. Look at the deals for Robinson, and Cousins. Seems to be a trend with short term deals that are guaranteed

[Cugel]

Well, consider the success of Goff, Foles, and Keenum after Fisher.

Starting to wonder if Vince Young may have been right all along.

Well, that's going a little far. Young publicly stated after his career was over and he was trying to get a chance to get back into the NFL (a couple years ago now) that he didn't really understand what it took to be an NFL starting QB. He didn't put in the work. But, now, he said, he appreciates it and would totally dedicate himself, blah, blah, blah.

Nobody cared of course, all the NFL teams had moved on by then and none was willing to revisit that project. But, nobody can argue that anybody stymied Vince Young's development except Vince Young.

[Broncoknight30]

Well, that's going a little far. Young publicly stated after his career was over and he was trying to get a chance to get back into the NFL (a couple years ago now) that he didn't really understand what it took to be an NFL starting QB. He didn't put in the work. But, now, he said, he appreciates it and would totally dedicate himself, blah, blah, blah.

Nobody cared of course, all the NFL teams had moved on by then and none was willing to revisit that project. But, nobody can argue that anybody stymied Vince Young's development except Vince Young.

Yeah, after he had that mental breakdown of his. Something happened with him. I am wondering if he would have had another coach if he would have thrived. Probably not.

What is rather clear is Jeff Fisher was an actual detriment to QB development and if we want to include Bradford with that, we probably could.

[OrangeHoof]

Young was terrific the first two years when he could ad lib and just run all over the field like he did in college. Eventually, he got hurt and Fisher, rightfully, told Young he'd have to play under control and stop running. That, and the murder of Steve McNair who was like a father figure, truly changed Young. It's correct he wasn't disciplined and did not understand how dedicated he had to be to quarterback an NFL team. But he also was not the pure passer an NFL team needs and once you took away his run threat, he was a below average quarterback.

It's nice to say "well let's just adapt our offense to our quarterback" but you wind up with guys (Tebow, for one) who were fantastic in a college offense but couldn't cut it in the pros where the defenders are faster and stronger and will put you on the sidelines if you don't protect yourself and limit your hits.

[Simple Jaded]

Keenum sucked with Kubiak in Houston, he’s a World Championship HC.

[CoachChaz]

Keenum sucked with Kubiak in Houston, he’s a World Championship HC.

To be more specific...Keenum was league average on a bad Houston team as a 1st year player under a mediocre coach that eventually won a championship when handed a championship team. I think "sucked" is a bit harsh.

[TXBRONC]

To be more specific...Keenum was league average on a bad Houston team as a 1st year player under a mediocre coach that eventually won a championship when handed a championship team. I think "sucked" is a bit harsh.

I might be wrong here, but I doubt Elway sees this signing as on par with signing Manning.

[CoachChaz]

I might be wrong here, but I doubt Elway sees this signing as on par with signing Manning.

You're not wrong. Keenum is a bridge that can also be a serviceable player in the process. Use him for 2 years until a long term solution is ready and then he is still only 32 and can find another deal somewhere.

[NightTerror218]

Fisher sucked. Sucked with titans too.

[Freyaka]

Fischer does suck, but that doesn't by default solidify Keenum's one flash in the pan season as a trend that is likely to continue. He was bad with other coaches as well. He just happened to fall into a QB friendly system with a crap ton of talent surrounding him. If you put Trevor Siemian on the Vikings last year, I don't know that the results change at all.

He won't have that system here, nor will he have the talent he enjoyed in Minnesota as we are lacking an o-line, our two best WR's are on their last leg, we have zero depth behind those receivers and we have no usable receiving option at TE...

Oh, and our run game is average at best...

If you think Keenum is going to repeat 2017, you're gonna have a bad time.

[BroncoJoe]

Fischer does suck, but that doesn't by default solidify Keenum's one flash in the pan season as a trend that is likely to continue. He was bad with other coaches as well. He just happened to fall into a QB friendly system with a crap ton of talent surrounding him. If you put Trevor Siemian on the Vikings last year, I don't know that the results change at all.

He won't have that system here, nor will he have the talent he enjoyed in Minnesota as we are lacking an o-line, our two best WR's are on their last leg, we have zero depth behind those receivers and we have no usable receiving option at TE...

Oh, and our run game is average at best...

If you think Keenum is going to repeat 2017, you're gonna have a bad time.

Finally. You're getting there...

:yo:

[CoachChaz]

Fischer does suck, but that doesn't by default solidify Keenum's one flash in the pan season as a trend that is likely to continue. He was bad with other coaches as well. He just happened to fall into a QB friendly system with a crap ton of talent surrounding him. If you put Trevor Siemian on the Vikings last year, I don't know that the results change at all.

He won't have that system here, nor will he have the talent he enjoyed in Minnesota as we are lacking an o-line, our two best WR's are on their last leg, we have zero depth behind those receivers and we have no usable receiving option at TE...

Oh, and our run game is average at best...

If you think Keenum is going to repeat 2017, you're gonna have a bad time.

By that rationale, ANY QB would suck in Denver.

[Freyaka]

By that rationale, ANY QB would suck in Denver.

There are players like Manning that elevate the play of those around them, and there are players who need to be elevated by others.

[BroncoJoe]

There are players like Manning that elevate the play of those around them, and there are players who need to be elevated by others.

Keenum's escapability and pocket awareness will improve our OL in and of itself.

[Broncoknight30]

There are players like Manning that elevate the play of those around them, and there are players who need to be elevated by others.

I wonder how he had a better season than the great Cousins last year. Any theories?

[Shazam!]

There are players like Manning that elevate the play of those around them, and there are players who need to be elevated by others.

Keenum's escapability and pocket awareness will improve our OL in and of itself.

I'm sorry but hes the second coming of PFM from what I saw compared to any Broncos QB last Season. He has much more pocket presence, better awareness and he can make teams pay for the blitz as he showed in Minny.

Plus got him 'cheap' compared to other QB salaries.

Perfect guy to hold the reins short term and grab Mayfield at 5.

To keep it on topic too, just because he couldn't thrive under Fisher and his Staff should not be a total damnnation of Fisher. Tennessee management wasnt exactly helpful in making the team a perennial contender.

[Freyaka]

I wonder how he had a better season than the great Cousins last year. Any theories?

It's really not that hard of logic to grasp....

One had Stefon Diggs, Adam Thielen, Laquon Tredwell and Kyle Rudolph

The other had Josh Doctson, Jamison Crowder and Vernon Davis....

That isn't even taking into account the other factors such as the Vikings having the number one defense compared to Washington's 21st ranked defense or the Vikings 7th ranked rushing attack vs Washington's 28th ranked defense. Keenum had a koosh job where he basically had to just sit in the passengers seat and not make mistakes. Cousins on the other hand had nothing surrounding him...Of course Keenum is going to have a better finish to the year, doesn't mean he had a better year.

Besides, Cousins isn't our QB, this isn't about Cousins anymore, it stopped being about Cousins awhile back so if we could just move on from bringing up cousins every five seconds, that'd be great.

[Broncoknight30]

It's really not that hard of logic to grasp....

One had Stefon Diggs, Adam Thielen, Laquon Tredwell and Kyle Rudolph

The other had Josh Doctson, Jamison Crowder and Vernon Davis....

That isn't even taking into account the other factors such as the Vikings having the number one defense compared to Washington's 21st ranked defense or the Vikings 7th ranked rushing attack vs Washington's 28th ranked defense. Keenum had a koosh job where he basically had to just sit in the passengers seat and not make mistakes. Cousins on the other hand had nothing surrounding him...Of course Keenum is going to have a better finish to the year, doesn't mean he had a better year.

Besides, Cousins isn't our QB, this isn't about Cousins anymore, it stopped being about Cousins awhile back.

Ahhhhh, the number one defense? Got it. Here is the reality of a league with the hard cap. The Broncos could not afford Cousins while the Vikings could. The Broncos had their championship run, and they got it. They had a relatively cheap and young defense with players who had not yet been paid. Von, Malik, Trevethan, Harris, Roby, among others. They could afford to pay Manning for those years and they made it work.

Now, as a result of players salaries increasing due to that championship, cannot keep key guys, cannot sign a high priced QB and are having a hard time putting together a competent line. Doesnt help that they keep changing coaching staffs every two years and right now the franchise is looking a little unnstable after what we all believe was a bad hire in VJ and allowing Philips to leave.

The Vikings are "going for it" with their version of a young and cheap defense. They better get it done, cause 4 players (key defensive) are coming up for contract....I believe next season. We will see how they do.

Broncos going the way of the Seahawks, who are going through their version of the hard cap pains. They made their run with cheap players that were productive and then they all came up for contract.

The bottom line is anyone thinking this team had any shot at cousins are really not paying attention. Case Keenum is a good signing. It is an UPGRADE at QB for a relatively cheap price.

How are certain Broncos fans not understanding this?

[Hawgdriver]

Keenum's escapability and pocket awareness will improve our OL in and of itself.

Check out Keenum's 2017 sack rate. Compare to TS, Pax, and Oz. It's like 4% vs. 15%+.

[Hawgdriver]

Will at least allow a benchmark of Denver OL, assuming Watson is back at RT.

[Freyaka]

Ahhhhh, the number one defense? Got it. Here is the reality of a league with the hard cap. The Broncos could not afford Cousins while the Vikings could.

Why are we discussing Cousins...That's not relevant to this discussion...Quit bringing up Cousins as a defense of Keenum...


This stopped being about Cousins as soon as it was apparent he wasn't coming to Denver. I don't know why everyone feels like looping back to Kirk Cousins everytime someone expresses displeasure in Keenum. This wasn't the right move for the team. The right move is to draft a QB and let that QB play because Keenum is not an upgrade at QB. He's Trevor if Trevor had more talent surrounding him. We are paying $18m to a guy that will likely end up being a backup to whatever rookie we end up drafting this year, if not this year, then next year.

[Freyaka]

Will at least allow a benchmark of Denver OL, assuming Watson is back at RT.

I can't imagine any likely scenario where we bring Watson back this year.

[Hawgdriver]

I can't imagine any likely scenario where we bring Watson back this year.

Why not? They did it with Stephenson... Broncos love them some dead weight tackles. Maybe they can land Schofield? Vinston Painter is also available. Elway loves his reclamation projects.

[Freyaka]

Why not? They did it with Stephenson... Broncos love them some dead weight tackles. Maybe they can land Schofield? Vinston Painter is also available. Elway loves his reclamation projects.

It sounds like we are eyeballing RT Orlando Brown. So...Hopefully that would be the end to Elway's tendencies.

[Freyaka]

I dunno. Regardless, you guys have your optimism, I'll stop pooping all over it with my negativity. It's going to take Keenum lighting up the preseason and proving me wrong to change my mind, if that happens we as Broncos fans all win, I just don't think this was the right direction to take as a team.

It is what happened, there isn't any changing it so it is what it is.

[Hawgdriver]

It sounds like we are eyeballing RT Orlando Brown. So...Hopefully that would be the end to Elway's tendencies.

Joy.

-94FGx7Livc

[Freyaka]

Joy.

-94FGx7Livc

He didn't have a great combine, but the combine isn't the end all be all of player evaluation. Too many crap players have a great combine and get drafted too high, likewise good players have a bad combine and suddenly become trash in the eyes of many.

[Hawgdriver]

He didn't have a great combine, but the combine isn't the end all be all of player evaluation. Too many crap players have a great combine and get drafted too high, likewise good players have a bad combine and suddenly become trash in the eyes of many.

InZiCd7d5qA

Pass. Maybe if he's there in the 6th or 7th.

I'm not a combine guy. But why waste a pick on a guy that doesn't care about his future?

[slim]

Why not? They did it with Stephenson... Broncos love them some dead weight tackles. Maybe they can land Schofield? Vinston Painter is also available. Elway loves his reclamation projects.

We need to pull you out of this negativity tailspin.

Let's get drunk

[slim]

He's Trevor if Trevor had more talent surrounding him.

This is absurd on every level imaginable.

[BroncoJoe]

This is absurd on every level imaginable.

I thought he was going to back out of these conversations.

Wishful thinking...

[slim]

1. Broncos had more talent on offense than the Vikes last year.
2. Trevor is lucky to even be in the league, while Keenum was the second most sought after QB in FA.
3. Keenum isn't scared of his own shadow, Trevor is scared of the dark.
4. Keenum has never thrown an Int on a screen, Trevor has done this multiple times.
5. Keenum protects the ball, Trevor gives it away at every opportunity.
6. Frey is bad at evaluating QB play, Slim is good at it.
7. Keenum is a good QB, Trevor is a bad person.

[Freyaka]

I thought he was going to back out of these conversations.

Wishful thinking...

So if someone quotes a previous quote prior to my statement of taking a break, that means me re-entering the conversation?

[BroncoJoe]

So if someone quotes a previous quote prior to my statement of taking a break, that means me re-entering the conversation?

Yes. Now, take a break!

[Freyaka]

6. Frey is bad at evaluating QB play, Slim is good at it.

Cool beans, you got me there...Have a nice day.

[Poet]

There's a lot of homerism in this bitch.

[Freyaka]

There's a lot of homerism in this bitch.

Always is, I was guilty of it last year... It is what it is. Can't change the way things are, can't change people's minds, might as well quit fighting it and move on.

[Hawgdriver]

If you give Trevor a perfect pocket and don't ask him to make plays, you'll get Case Keenum results. If the pocket collapses or he has to wing it, Trevor's got nothing for ya. Both are tough, but Case is tough and makes plays and avoids sacks. Case also gives his receivers more chances to make plays, even if he plays too much hero-ball. For restoring some swagger in the pass game with an iffy line, Case is a much better option. If the line is great at pass pro, they have about the same arm and ability.

To me, the main upgrade is to the offensive line, not really the QB position per se.

Could Trevor learn pocket awareness in time? For his sake, he needs to if he wants to have that long backup/fringe starter career. But right now he's a gunshy young vet who will get twigsnapped behind most NFL lines when his team is trailing. He plays like he's afraid of that, we all see it.

[TXBRONC]

Fischer does suck, but that doesn't by default solidify Keenum's one flash in the pan season as a trend that is likely to continue. He was bad with other coaches as well. He just happened to fall into a QB friendly system with a crap ton of talent surrounding him. If you put Trevor Siemian on the Vikings last year, I don't know that the results change at all.

He won't have that system here, nor will he have the talent he enjoyed in Minnesota as we are lacking an o-line, our two best WR's are on their last leg, we have zero depth behind those receivers and we have no usable receiving option at TE...

Oh, and our run game is average at best...

If you think Keenum is going to repeat 2017, you're gonna have a bad time.

If you're talking about wins and losses, that depends on well Denver does revamping the team. If you're talking about the stats, I don't see why he couldn't put up similar numbers. They're not eye popping, they're solid, and that's what the Broncos need from their quarterback.

[Freyaka]

If you're talking about wins and losses, that depends on well Denver does revamping the team. If you're talking about the stats, I don't see why he couldn't put up similar numbers. They're not eye popping, they're solid, and that's what the Broncos need from their quarterback.

If the cap got of 12.5ish average per year is accurate, I'm willing to back down on my stance and wait and see

[Poet]

If the cap got of 12.5ish average per year is accurate, I'm willing to back down on my stance and wait and see

I'll 'eat crow' if he's good enough to make us a SB, if not he's a waste of time and space.

[CoachChaz]

I'll 'eat crow' if he's good enough to make us a SB, if not he's a waste of time and space.

With our current roster, Aaron Rodgers might not be good enough to get us to a Super Bowl

[Freyaka]

I'll 'eat crow' if he's good enough to make us a SB, if not he's a waste of time and space.

I mean, that cap hit would only be 2.5m more than McCown got, McCown is proven to be more consistent, but Keenum is younger and based off last year has a higher potential upside...

I dunno man, still not a fan, but it's not as bad as it was.

[Poet]

I mean, that cap hit would only be 2.5m more than McCown got, McCown is proven to be more consistent, but Keenum is younger and based off last year has a higher potential upside...

I dunno man, still not a fan, but it's not as bad as it was.

I don't like the deal, and I think it takes the team in a bad direction. But, enough gloom and doom, amirite.

It's baseball time.

[topscribe]

He didn't have a great combine, but the combine isn't the end all be all of player evaluation. Too many crap players have a great combine and get drafted too high, likewise good players have a bad combine and suddenly become trash in the eyes of many.
TD was talking about work ethic and "want-to." Brown didn't have a good Combine because
he didn't prepare. If he wasn't willing to prepare for a one-time shot at impressing recruiters,
then how likely will he be to properly prepare for games? Plus, I understand he did only
about 15 reps with the bench press. Contrast that with 37 reps by Will Hernandez. I will not
like it if the Broncos draft Brown.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Fisher THAT bad.

[Simple Jaded]

Umm, y’all know it could’ve been both, right?

[Poet]

With our current roster, Aaron Rodgers might not be good enough to get us to a Super Bowl

Then signing him was a waste of time when you could have kept TS as the 'vet' and gone about rebuilding the team properly. We're on track to perish a most ignominious death.

[topscribe]

Then signing him was a waste of time when you could have kept TS as the 'vet' and gone about rebuilding the team properly. We're on track to perish a most ignominious death.
Why, because you think we're going to have the very same roster?

[Poet]

Why, because you think we're going to have the very same roster?

How much of an improvement do you expect to make on a declining defense, aging WR's, an unproven backfield, a bad line, etc. Be realistic.

[Freyaka]

So I guess I'm going to pull a 180 and say it could have just been fisher. Watched some of his games with the Texans. He wasn't great, he still doesn't throw a great ball I strongly feel that part of my initial assessment was accurate, but his pocket awareness even back then was off the charts. Watching some of the Vikings games from this year, it's almost unreal how well he is aware of his surroundings, most of the time he seems to know exactly how long he has before he's going to get leveled by a defender.

Damnit... I'm warming up to this one... Why do I have to warm up to this guy after ranting about him for the whole freaking day lol? I'm going to try and watch through the rest of his 2017 games over the weekend.

[topscribe]

How much of an improvement do you expect to make on a declining defense, aging WR's, an unproven backfield, a bad line, etc. Be realistic.
Sorry, I don't agree with you on any of that, except the bad O-line, which I fully don't expect for this year.

But I'm very tired, and I don't want to get into a debate on the State of the Squad. So I'll just agree to disagree.

Or put it on ice for future purposes.

[Freyaka]

How much of an improvement do you expect to make on a declining defense, aging WR's, an unproven backfield, a bad line, etc. Be realistic.

We've got so many picks in this draft to reload...This rosters going to be different in September.

[Poet]

We've got so many picks in this draft to reload...This rosters going to be different in September.

So, we have a bad roster. Our FA period has been picking up a pedestrian CB, letting a good CB go, and signing a very average QB. We will have, hopefully, an injection of youth. How much of an impact in the positive do you expect them to make?

[Freyaka]

So, we have a bad roster. Our FA period has been picking up a pedestrian CB, letting a good CB go, and signing a very average QB. We will have, hopefully, an injection of youth. How much of an impact in the positive do you expect them to make?

He is average, but he's also a smart QB. If you have the means, go watch full games from 2017. I promise, you'll warm up to him. I still say he's Trevor Siemian with a better line, but it's what others have been saying. Their line is better, I don't give a crap what some PFF statistics say. However, they are correct in pointing out that his pocket awareness is nuts, like keep you in the game long enough to win it nuts. The guy just feels the pressure and moves around very well in the pocket or outside the pocket once its collapsed.

If Musgrave can coach up his passing abilities (I actually have a lot of faith in Musgrave) then, who knows, maybe we can win a lot of games with him. I still don't believe he'll take us to the Superbowl, but who knows man. You gotta get to the playoffs to have a chance, it's realistic with our defense if we can ad a RB, TE and a few o-line players or WR in the draft, we could be very competitive and win the division again.

Maybe he sucks and we wasted our money, who knows. I'd rather hope for him to be good and be wrong than spend the rest of the offseason negative and be right.

[Poet]

I'm as cold as ICE!

[Simple Jaded]

We've got so many picks in this draft to reload...This rosters going to be different in September.

Too bad they can’t draft to save their lives.

[Freyaka]

Too bad they can’t draft to save their lives.

Last time we had low picks like this year, we nailed it. I don't think the problem is that we can't draft, it's that we suck at drafting at the tail end of each round.

[Simple Jaded]

Last time we had low picks like this year, we nailed it. I don't think the problem is that we can't draft, it's that we suck at drafting at the tail end of each round.

So they’re only good when it’s easy? Isn’t that just another way of saying they suck?

[Freyaka]

So they’re only good when it’s easy? Isn’t that just another way of saying they suck?

Well fine, look at it in the most negative light you can if that helps.

Regardless, Elway's going to have to do his job this year. We've got 10 picks after trading Trevor. We need to hit on WR, RB, TE, RT and MLB. It is vital that we at least find a RT and an MLB. Hopefully Butt pans out, that would take out TE and while I doubt it happens, there is still hope for Jordan Taylor and Carlos Henderson. I'd also like us to give Eric Decker a call, I know, you just want to trash his one time he tripped, but he'd make a solid slot and redzone target.

[Cugel]

You're not wrong. Keenum is a bridge that can also be a serviceable player in the process. Use him for 2 years until a long term solution is ready and then he is still only 32 and can find another deal somewhere.

It's a lot more complicated than this.

On the one hand, nobody, not even Keenum's mom thinks he's a first ballot HOF QB like Manning, who can single-handedly take a team to the SB. Manning was worth 10 wins a season to the Colts (averaging 12 wins a season, when he was hurt in 2011 the Colts won 2 games, fired their coach & GM and "sucked for Luck.")

But, the Manning example is important. How did sucking for Luck work out for the Colts? They tried to re-create the Manning experiment whereby Manning covered up for a piss-weak roster by drafting the next generational QB.

Now, 7 years and new GMs and Coaches later they have the #3 pick of the draft.

Winning is important in its own right. Losing breeds more losing, and thinking that an elite QB will cover up for a weak roster just lands you back at the top of the draft when that guy gets hurt. Green Bay is another example as they fell to 7-9 after Rogers was hurt. And fired their GM.

Denver could just have drafted a QB at #5, started the rookie for 2 years, sucked for 2 years and then, maybe if they were lucky and did a good job coaching said QB, and he was the right guy, maybe you have a long-term elite franchise QB. Maybe.

But, what happens to your organization in the mean-time? The team develops a culture of losing that is hard to shake. Oh, and in the mean-time both Elway and Joseph get fired.

Are the Colts really going to ever win another SB with Luck? Not unless they do a vastly better job of drafting and developing players.

The problem is magical thinking: "we're just a QB away from a SB run."

In reality Denver is 7 to 9 starters away from a SB. They need a T, a G, an elite RB, a TE, a slot WR, and that's just on offense. On defense they need to replace the talent they once had in DeMarcus Ware, Aqib Talib, TJ Ward, Danny Trevathan, Malik Jackson and Wade Phillips and have replaced none of them.

Some of those players might be on the roster, but many are not. Getting Keenum will give them 2 years where they don't totally suck and can concentrate on rebuilding the talent level on the roster without a desperate need for a Qb.

He could also prove that he's the QB he was in 2017 and they keep him around long-term. That could work if they added a boat-load of talent through key FA acquisitions and the draft to put around him.

[Cugel]

The key way Keenum helps them is that they can concentrate on drafting the best player available at every damn pick instead of filling holes. They have been filling holes for years in the draft now, because they believed "we're this close to a SB! We're not rebuilding, we're re-booting."

Now after a 5-11 wakeup call, they are rebuilding. Drafting the best player available at a position of need leads to drafting WR Marcus Nash in the first round, because, as Shanahan later admitted "we needed a WR and he was the best WR on the board." And he didn't even make the roster.

At #5 they can and should get an All-Pro talent, whether it's Chubb, or Nelson, or Minkah Fitzpatrick. They need everything except outside LB and have almost nothing. They could justify drafting a QB, a DT, a T, a G, an ILB, a CB, a RB or S. They need it all.

Drafting a QB #5 because they desperately need a QB and then hoping that player develops into a star is "Marcus-Nashing" it once again.

The Broncos need to get impact players by drafting the best player who falls to them when they pick in every round, almost regardless of position.

That is what you have to do when you suck so bad you are 5-11. It wasn't even mostly the fault of having Siemian and Lynch and Osweiler as their QBs. Its a piss-weak roster from top to bottom, with a couple of exceptions on defense.

[TXBRONC]

The key way Keenum helps them is that they can concentrate on drafting the best player available at every damn pick instead of filling holes. They have been filling holes for years in the draft now, because they believed "we're this close to a SB! We're not rebuilding, we're re-booting."

Now after a 5-11 wakeup call, they are rebuilding. Drafting the best player available at a position of need leads to drafting WR Marcus Nash in the first round, because, as Shanahan later admitted "we needed a WR and he was the best WR on the board." And he didn't even make the roster.

At #5 they can and should get an All-Pro talent, whether it's Chubb, or Nelson, or Minkah Fitzpatrick. They need everything except outside LB and have almost nothing. They could justify drafting a QB, a DT, a T, a G, an ILB, a CB, a RB or S. They need it all.

Drafting a QB #5 because they desperately need a QB and then hoping that player develops into a star is "Marcus-Nashing" it once again.

The Broncos need to get impact players by drafting the best player who falls to them when they pick in every round, almost regardless of position.

That is what you have to do when you suck so bad you are 5-11. It wasn't even mostly the fault of having Siemian and Lynch and Osweiler as their QBs. Its a piss-weak roster from top to bottom, with a couple of exceptions on defense.

You make a lot of interesting points but I agree with Chaz it's as simple as he says it is. Keenum is a bridge quarterback, I'm not trying to put you on the spot but, you've made the point about the necessity of having a franchise quarterback to win championships on numerous occasions and rightly so I might add. The best place to find that guy is at the top of the draft. Denver is in a very good position to do just that and if this draft is as deep as people say it you can still draft a several good players. If I'm not mistaken Denver has 11 (think) and I think I heard that they may be getting a compensatory 5th round.

Actually Marcus Nash was on the roster for two or three seasons and I don't think it is exactly fair to compare Marcus Nash to taking a guy with 5th overall pick. That's a difference of 27 slots.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I’m cautiously optimistic Kennum will step up in the pocket instead of running backwards or parallel to los.

[Cugel]

You make a lot of interesting points but I agree with Chaz it's as simple as he says it is. Keenum is a bridge quarterback, I'm not trying to put you on the spot but, you've made the point about the necessity of having a franchise quarterback to win championships on numerous occasions and rightly so I might add. The best place to find that guy is at the top of the draft. Denver is in a very good position to do just that and if this draft is as deep as people say it you can still draft a several good players. If I'm not mistaken Denver has 11 (think) and I think I heard that they may be getting a compensatory 5th round.

Actually Marcus Nash was on the roster for two or three seasons and I don't think it is exactly fair to compare Marcus Nash to taking a guy with 5th overall pick. That's a difference of 27 slots.

Last edited by TXBRONC; Yesterday at 06:19 PM.

You do need a franchise QB, I'm just not convinced there even is one in this draft and if there is, the Broncos may simply not be in position to draft him anyway at #5. What if Josh Rosen is the next Carson Wentz and he's gone to the Giants at #2? Then the Broncos take Baker Mayfield at #5 and he's NOT the guy?

These QBs leave me cold. I'm not posing as a draft expert either, it's that all the experts are all over the place. Usually there's some consensus "this guy #1, this guy #2, this guy #3 Prospect". Not this year.

Lots of mock drafts have Cleveland taking Barkely #1 overall or Chubb, because none of the QBs stand out. Yet we know from history that it's wildly unlikely that all of these guys are going to be stars in the league! The thought that nags me is "what if NONE of them are really great?"

If Elway makes yet another blunder at drafting a Qb that will be a disaster for the team. He's betting his career on this move! (Not to mention that VJ will also be fired).

Plus, they have made ZERO moves in FA to get a T and a starting RG, which is the prerequisite for drafting a QB at #5. They are going into the draft AGAIN! desperately needing a T and a G to upgrade their OL.

My position is: even if the Broncos had Tom Brady this season, they aren't winning the SB this year. That means it's a 3 year rebuilding process. They could take a QB in the second round to develop, dump Paxton, develop Kelly and see if he's worth spit, and strengthen the rest of the team. And hope that Case Keenum continues to play like the top 12 QB he was last year.

#12 in passing yards
#8 in QBR (98.3)
#12 in TDs
#6 in INTs among active starters
#2 behind Drew Brees in completion % (ahead of Brady, Stafford, Ryan, Alex Smith)

These are the stats of a VERY good, but not elite QB. So, critics say things like "he was playing with a great Vikings team and that inflated his stats!" or "He's a one-year wonder" (how do they know?)

People are looking at his career with Jeff Fisher and the Rams, but Foles totally sucked under Fisher, and now is SB MVP, while Goff looked like the worst top 5 QB draft pick since JaMarcus Russell, and suddenly, freed of Fisher for 1 season, suddenly explodes for 28 TDs, 7 Ints, and 3800 yards (#5 in the NFL). I'm not saying Keenum is as good as Goff, but he certainly is better than people are giving him credit for being.

The Broncos need to strengthen their talent dramatically, and they need that #1 pick to do it, whether they take Nelson or Cubb at #5 or trade back and stockpile picks and get a T like McGlinchy or Connor Williams or somebody. Then they get another impact player with another first round pick.

[Cugel]

This is why I love the Keenum move: It's a 2 year deal!

If Keenum plays like he did last year, the Broncos tear up the 2nd year of his deal and give him a long term contract. If not, they draft a QB next year, because, if Keenum sucks, they are probably drafting in the top 10 again next year. They are not locked in. And they don't have to roll the dice on picking a guy in the top 5 only to have them turn out to be Marcus Mariota (#3) or Mark Sanchez (#5). (I'm not supposing he'll be a disaster like Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell, just possibly a disappointment).

[Cugel]

BTW: All indications are that Baker Mayfield will be on the board at #5 and the Broncos could very well draft him and develop him behind Keenum for a year or 2. If they go that route however, they better have already strengthened their OL FIRST in FA and as of right now they are NOT doing that!

[Simple Jaded]

Don’t need OL help because Case Keenum can throw a football over them mountains.

[Simple Jaded]

Well fine, look at it in the most negative light you can if that helps.

Regardless, Elway's going to have to do his job this year. We've got 10 picks after trading Trevor. We need to hit on WR, RB, TE, RT and MLB. It is vital that we at least find a RT and an MLB. Hopefully Butt pans out, that would take out TE and while I doubt it happens, there is still hope for Jordan Taylor and Carlos Henderson. I'd also like us to give Eric Decker a call, I know, you just want to trash his one time he tripped, but he'd make a solid slot and redzone target.

It wasn’t just one time.

[Cugel]

With our current roster, Aaron Rodgers might not be good enough to get us to a Super Bowl

I said Tom Brady, but the point is the same. No QB who ever lived, including John Elway '86 could get this team to a SB with the talent level on the team, and if he did, they would get blown out like the early Elway teams did.

They need a RT, a RG, a TE, a WR, maybe 2, and QB, and that's just on offense.
On defense they need a DT, an ILB, maybe 2, a CB.

And that is just the starters they need to replace. There is also the fact that the team has shed depth. Mike Pritchard was talking about this on the radio the other day.

You get a great player like Talib, then he's gone, and you advance Bradley Roby into his spot. Well, that affects everything. You had Roby as your #3 CB, and now he's #2, but the guy behind him is no Bradley Roby. Brenden Langley? Dude was a reach and hasn't developed anything like that.

So, the talent level of your team declines. Last year when Talib was out, Roby started and was fine, but if either of Denver's starting 2 CBs misses a game, who will take their place? Nobody on this roster could step into that role and not get torched. So, the team needs to draft good young CBs to beef up their roster.

This is true at almost every position. There's zero depth behind the WRs. Even if Jake Butt turns out to be a pro-bowl TE (could take a few years) who is there behind him?

Same thing is true at LB where they also have zero quality depth.

What has happened is that the SB 50 team since then has lost guys like DeMarcus Ware, Talib, Malik Jackson, Danny Trevathan, Wade Phillips, TJ Ward and others, and none of their replacements has been better than any of the guys who retired, was traded or left in FA.

Talent drain. To the point where the Broncos simply need 7 or 8 new starters just to compete for a SB. That's going to take a few years to build up the roster.

That says nothing about a young and inexperienced coaching roster too with VJ and Woods opening only their 2nd season in their jobs, and still learning. Will they develop into top quality coaches?

Anybody who tends to doubt that should simply take a look at the talent level on the Rams and Eagles and Vikings rosters and compare those players to the Broncos. Those teams are simply better at most positions, not just QB.

[Simple Jaded]

Dude, Elway never had a team as good as ‘17 team until Reeves was let go. ES, DT? ... uhhhhhhh, no! Von, Harris, Talibing? No.

Elway took a bunch of Todd Davis’s and 1 or 2 Derek Wolfe’s to the dance.

[Cugel]

So, we have a bad roster. Our FA period has been picking up a pedestrian CB, letting a good CB go, and signing a very average QB. We will have, hopefully, an injection of youth. How much of an impact in the positive do you expect them to make?

You know, I don't like to see veterans leave this team and be replaced by rookies and young players who have to develop to be as good. But, realistically, how many years of solid drafting and smart FA acquisitions would it take for Denver to get back to a SB, forgetting about QB for a minute?

2 or 3. They need an almost complete rebuild, and worse, they have to maintain the attitude of competing and winning while they are doing that, because a culture of losing is easy to establish and tends to perpetuate itself. Just ask the Raiders, who went from SB to bottom-dwellers and then stayed there for over a decade.

[Cugel]

Dude, Elway never had a team as good as ‘17 team until Reeves was let go. ES, DT? ... uhhhhhhh, no! Von, Harris, Talibing? No.

Elway took a bunch of Todd Davis’s and 1 or 2 Derek Wolfe’s to the dance.

I thought about that, but that's why I said "even if they did they'd be blown out." Maybe Elway of "The Drive" could somehow will this team to a SB, but the Eagles would beat them like the Redskins and Giants did those teams.

And there ain't no Elway '86 coming to Denver anytime soon, so that is a pretty irrelevant point anyway. Let's say the Broncos had Aaron Rogers, arguably the best QB in the NFL right now (not the best team). Well, Rogers has gone to 1 SB. He wouldn't win any championships with this roster.

[Simple Jaded]

It’s not irrelevant, the Broncos still need a QB, if that’s part of the process it ALWAYS starts there.

[Cugel]

It’s not irrelevant, the Broncos still need a QB, if that’s part of the process it ALWAYS starts there.

I think you're missing the point deliberately. All the fan focus has been on QB. But the rest of the Broncos roster just isn't ready to compete for championships, no matter who the QB is.

They need a couple of years of really great drafting and FA acquisitions that all pan out. THEN maybe they could hope to compete with the Pittsburgh and New Englands to go to the SB.

The #5 pick of the draft gives them an amazing opportunity to start. So, unless there's a QB that Elway is convinced will be there at #5 who will turn out to be a SB caliber QB (not sure at this point), then take a Nelson, or Chubb, or Minkah Fitzpatrick, or whoever the best player on the board is regardless of position.

Drafting for need is how the Broncos got into this talent deficit in the first place.

"We need a QB! Gotta get a QB! Who's the best QB we can draft? Hmmn. OK, Paxton Lynch isn't as good as Goff or Carson Wentz, but he could be there at #26 so let's take him."

Moral of the story: If you are not sure that a QB is an elite prospect, then don't draft him in the first round.

[Cugel]

There is no consensus on any of the top 4 QBs in this draft, which makes me think none of them are really that good. That makes me lean towards drafting the best player who falls to #5 and just rolling out there with Keenum and seeing how that goes.

Because it's worse to waste a top 5 pick on a guy who turns out to be the next Paxton Lynch.

[topscribe]

I thought about that, but that's why I said "even if they did they'd be blown out." Maybe Elway of "The Drive" could somehow will this team to a SB, but the Eagles would beat them like the Redskins and Giants did those teams.

And there ain't no Elway '86 coming to Denver anytime soon, so that is a pretty irrelevant point anyway. Let's say the Broncos had Aaron Rogers, arguably the best QB in the NFL right now (not the best team). Well, Rogers has gone to 1 SB. He wouldn't win any championships with this roster.
Cug, your pessimism underwhelms me. You seem to forget that the Broncos finished -17 in the
turnover margin last year and nearly 40% of the opponents' starting drives began on the Broncos'
end of the field. The Broncos' Achilles (besides green QBs) was the O-line. Rodgers had two
attributes that would have countered the Broncos' problems: (1) pocket awareness and
escapability and (2) the ability to throw receivers open.

The defense was still filled with studs who played in the Super Bowl, and given the chances to
play normally, their games would have ended with much different results for them. DT and
Emmanuel were (and are) still blue-chip receivers and would have been All-Pros on the other
end of Rodger's passes, IMO. C.J. Anderson would have run rampant because of the threat of
Rodgers.

Yes, in my opinion, the Broncos with Rodgers could have been a playoff team and might even
have gone deep into the playoffs.

[Freyaka]

There is no consensus on any of the top 4 QBs in this draft, which makes me think none of them are really that good. That makes me lean towards drafting the best player who falls to #5 and just rolling out there with Keenum and seeing how that goes.

Because it's worse to waste a top 5 pick on a guy who turns out to be the next Paxton Lynch.

There are four spots ahead of us and 3 QB hungry teams, if even one QB hungry team jumps us, none of the top 4 are left. I'm really thinking we won't be getting a QB this draft. Looks like it'll be Barkley, Chubb or Nelson for us.

[Northman]

Cug, your pessimism underwhelms me. You seem to forget that the Broncos finished -17 in the
turnover margin last year and nearly 40% of the opponents' starting drives began on the Broncos'
end of the field. The Broncos' Achilles (besides green QBs) was the O-line. Rodgers had two
attributes that countered the Broncos' problems: (1) pocket awareness and escapability and (2)
the ability to throw receivers open.

The defense was still filled with studs who played in the Super Bowl, and given the chances to
play normal games would have ended in a much different result for them. DT and Emmanuel
were (and are) till blue-chip receivers and would have been All-Pros on the other end of Rodger's
passes, IMO. C.J. Anderson would have run rampant because of the threat of Rodgers.

Yes, in my opinion, the Broncos with Rodgers would have been a playoff team and might even
have gone deep into the playoffs.

Did he really say that Rodgers wouldnt of made a difference on this team last year? Lol

[topscribe]

Did he really say that Rodgers wouldnt of made a difference on this team last year? Lol
Well, he didn't say Rodgers wouldn't have made a difference, but he said Rodgers couldn't
have won a championship with them. Of course, you never know what would happen, and
we'll never know what could have happened, but with Rodgers, everybody would have all
the sudden been better: the O-line, WRs, RBs, and even TEs. And even the defense since
they would be coming in on the right end of the field.

[Cugel]

Cug, your pessimism underwhelms me. You seem to forget that the Broncos finished -17 in the
turnover margin last year and nearly 40% of the opponents' starting drives began on the Broncos'
end of the field. The Broncos' Achilles (besides green QBs) was the O-line. Rodgers had two
attributes that would have countered the Broncos' problems: (1) pocket awareness and
escapability and (2) the ability to throw receivers open.

The defense was still filled with studs who played in the Super Bowl, and given the chances to
play normally, their games would have ended with much different results for them. DT and
Emmanuel were (and are) still blue-chip receivers and would have been All-Pros on the other
end of Rodger's passes, IMO. C.J. Anderson would have run rampant because of the threat of
Rodgers.

Yes, in my opinion, the Broncos with Rodgers could have been a playoff team and might even
have gone deep into the playoffs.

You said you disagreed, and then you didn't disagree at all! I said SB championship.

And you just said that if this team got Aaron Rogers they could be a "playoff team and might even go deep in the playoffs."

Yes, that means they would go 10-6 or something, get a wild-card and win in KC or somewhere, then get beat by the Steelers or Patriots in the divisional round.

In short, this team flat wasn't good enough to win the SB last year, no matter who their QB was. Which is exactly what I said. Aaron Rogers took a 7-9 team and made them single-handedly a 10-6 team. They beat the Giants and Cowboys and lost to the Falcons in the NFC Championship. We know they had 7-9 talent because that's what they did this year without Rogers, and 10-6 and conference championship game was their record in 2016.

So, Rogers alone was worth 3 wins to them. Add 3 or 4 wins to the Broncos 2017 and it's 9-7 at best, and that's not enough to lift Denver to anywhere close to the SB.

[MOtorboat]

The Broncos would have been miles better last year with Rodgers. How is that even debatable?

[SmilinAssasSin27]

The Broncos would have been miles better last year with Rodgers. How is that even debatable?

Well...where do I begin?

[Simple Jaded]

I think you're missing the point deliberately. All the fan focus has been on QB. But the rest of the Broncos roster just isn't ready to compete for championships, no matter who the QB is.

They need a couple of years of really great drafting and FA acquisitions that all pan out. THEN maybe they could hope to compete with the Pittsburgh and New Englands to go to the SB.

The #5 pick of the draft gives them an amazing opportunity to start. So, unless there's a QB that Elway is convinced will be there at #5 who will turn out to be a SB caliber QB (not sure at this point), then take a Nelson, or Chubb, or Minkah Fitzpatrick, or whoever the best player on the board is regardless of position.

Drafting for need is how the Broncos got into this talent deficit in the first place.

"We need a QB! Gotta get a QB! Who's the best QB we can draft? Hmmn. OK, Paxton Lynch isn't as good as Goff or Carson Wentz, but he could be there at #26 so let's take him."

Moral of the story: If you are not sure that a QB is an elite prospect, then don't draft him in the first round.

Reality of the story: If you can’t be patient don’t draft QB’s period. Then you’re stuck with the Case Ruettiger’s of the NFL.

Watch how fast ya’ll turn on this dude when he’s not a “dominant franchise QB”, as some seem to think.

Btw, you’re making the same idiotic argument Tebowfags were making for him; build a great team and THEN worry about the QB position. It was stupid then and it’s stupid now.

[Broncoknight30]

Reality of the story: If you can’t be patient don’t draft QB’s period. Then you’re stuck with the Case Ruettiger’s of the NFL.

Watch how fast ya’ll turn on this dude when he’s not a “dominant franchise QB”, as some seem to think.

Btw, you’re making the same idiotic argument Tebowfags were making for him; build a great team and THEN worry about the QB position. It was stupid then and it’s stupid now.

Why don't you tell all of us why Luck has never been to a SB, why Cousins did not win as many games as CK last year, why Rodgers has not been to a SB since 2010, and why Brees's teams had a hard time making it to the playoffs, even though he was a very productive QB. Ohhhhh, is it because of the teams around them?

I know it seems like a nightmare to this day for you, but Tebow actually won here. Yeah, he did. I know you do not count it, and they won in spite of him. Of course, you just keep clinging to it.

You still cry about not paying Cousins all of that money and so many of you actually thought Elway was going to do that.

Peter King's MMQB

Quote:
Denver? The Broncos didn’t make an offer. This went to McCartney’s reason for making this a silent auction: Denver liked Keenum, didn’t want to pay in the neighborhood of $30 million a year guaranteed for a quarterback with so many other prominent players to pay. It came down to this for John Elway: Keenum for $10 million to $12 million per year less than Cousins, and the Broncos knew near the start of the legal tampering period they could get Keenum. Ten hours into the period, Denver had reached agreement with Keenum on a two-year, $36 million guaranteed deal.

McCartney understood Elway’s approach—Elway didn’t want to be left at the altar. McCartney did think, What harm would it do to make an offer? But Elway liked Keenum a lot, and felt he couldn’t wait until Thursday or Friday to see if he’d get Cousins.

There are many ignorant Broncos fans.

[Freyaka]

Reality of the story: If you can’t be patient don’t draft QB’s period. Then you’re stuck with the Case Ruettiger’s of the NFL.

Watch how fast ya’ll turn on this dude when he’s not a “dominant franchise QB”, as some seem to think.

Btw, you’re making the same idiotic argument Tebowfags were making for him; build a great team and THEN worry about the QB position. It was stupid then and it’s stupid now.

I hope Case plays amazing just to watch you fight it all year.

[Cugel]

Reality of the story: If you can’t be patient don’t draft QB’s period. Then you’re stuck with the Case Ruettiger’s of the NFL.

Watch how fast ya’ll turn on this dude when he’s not a “dominant franchise QB”, as some seem to think.

Btw, you’re making the same idiotic argument Tebowfags were making for him; build a great team and THEN worry about the QB position. It was stupid then and it’s stupid now.

I hated Tebow from day 1 because of all the circus, the idiot women showing up to Broncos practices wearing bridal dresses, all the drama that had nothing to do with football - and I never thought he would be a great NFL QB because he would throw the ball 15 yards away from his target.

Case Keenum is a highly accurate QB whose team never supported him, never wanted him to start and were actually embarrassed when he was successful because they had other plans Sam Bradford was supposed to be their Franchise QB after Teddy Bridgewater got hurt.

The Vikings gave up a first-round pick in 2017 and a fourth-round pick in 2018 that became a third rounder -- "a massive price to pay for what could amount to one season of work. The Eagles paid $11 million of Bradford's salary as part of the deal, which means Minnesota will only be on the hook for $7 million in 2016, according to NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport."

So, Plan A was Bradford, until Bridgewater could become completely healthy - which he never really did. So Keenum was Plan C and yet he performed at a high level.

In short, Keenum was Trevor Siemian - if Trevor Siemian had never gotten hurt and continued to play at a high level for an entire season. Is he an elite QB like Andrew Luck or Tom Brady or Drew Brees? No. And he doesn't cost $27m a year like Cousins either.

The brutal fact of life is that the Broncos are either going to have to surrender multiple high round picks to move up in the draft and take a chance on Josh Allen or Baker Mayfield being the right fit, or else pay a crippling salary to a FA like Cousins.

Or they could give Case Keenum a tryout. If he works out, great! Elway re-negotiates a long term deal and the Broncos have their franchise QB.

If not, then they are probably back in the top 10 anyway and in the meantime they have strengthened the rest of the team which they desperately need to do anyway if they are ever to compete for the division, let alone the SB.

Right now, the Broncos are the 5th worst team in the NFL. They need almost everything. They just paid Keenum a $25m guaranteed contract. Now you want them to draft a QB at #5 who won't play in year one, or else give up a boat-load of picks to move up to #4 just to grab Josh Allen or Baker Mayfield?

Fortunately Elway isn't going to do that. He's going to take a star player like Nelson or else trade back and get extra picks and draft two or 3 position players who will be immediate day 1 impact starters. If they do this successfully, they will immediately compete for the division title THIS year.

[Cugel]

BTW: Elway can't afford to "just be patient". Take a look at the top 4 teams in the NFL draft:

The Browns fired their GM and almost fired their coach. The Giants fired their coach and GM last year, and the Colts fired their GM too. That's what happens normally when teams go 5-11 or worse. Joe Ellis led off the Broncos end of season press conference for a reason, and that reason was to announce to the world that HE, not John Elway is actually CEO of this organization. The implication is clear. Ellis owes a duty of loyalty as fiduciary to the Bowlen Family Trust, not John Elway.

If Elway continues to fail, continues to "swing and miss" as he put it, in the draft, the team will be last place in the AFC West for the next few years, and then he and the Broncos will "agree to part ways" in a couple of years. Just like the GMs of other teams that fail. He's not immune.

He has to turn this team around THIS year and not next. So, that's exactly what he's doing. He got a potential franchise QB, who didn't cost too much, and has 10 picks in this year's draft. He needs to hit on those picks of course.

If he does, then fine. The Broncos start winning the AFC West. If not, then the next GM will have to start over.

[Freyaka]

I hated Tebow from day 1 because of all the circus, the idiot women showing up to Broncos practices wearing bridal dresses, all the drama that had nothing to do with football - and I never thought he would be a great NFL QB because he would throw the ball 15 yards away from his target.

Case Keenum is a highly accurate QB whose team never supported him, never wanted him to start and were actually embarrassed when he was successful because they had other plans Sam Bradford was supposed to be their Franchise QB after Teddy Bridgewater got hurt.

The Vikings gave up a first-round pick in 2017 and a fourth-round pick in 2018 that became a third rounder -- "a massive price to pay for what could amount to one season of work. The Eagles paid $11 million of Bradford's salary as part of the deal, which means Minnesota will only be on the hook for $7 million in 2016, according to NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport."

So, Plan A was Bradford, until Bridgewater could become completely healthy - which he never really did. So Keenum was Plan C and yet he performed at a high level.

In short, Keenum was Trevor Siemian - if Trevor Siemian had never gotten hurt and continued to play at a high level for an entire season. Is he an elite QB like Andrew Luck or Tom Brady or Drew Brees? No. And he doesn't cost $27m a year like Cousins either.

The brutal fact of life is that the Broncos are either going to have to surrender multiple high round picks to move up in the draft and take a chance on Josh Allen or Baker Mayfield being the right fit, or else pay a crippling salary to a FA like Cousins.

Or they could give Case Keenum a tryout. If he works out, great! Elway re-negotiates a long term deal and the Broncos have their franchise QB.

If not, then they are probably back in the top 10 anyway and in the meantime they have strengthened the rest of the team which they desperately need to do anyway if they are ever to compete for the division, let alone the SB.

Right now, the Broncos are the 5th worst team in the NFL. They need almost everything. They just paid Keenum a $25m guaranteed contract. Now you want them to draft a QB at #5 who won't play in year one, or else give up a boat-load of picks to move up to #4 just to grab Josh Allen or Baker Mayfield?

Fortunately Elway isn't going to do that. He's going to take a star player like Nelson or else trade back and get extra picks and draft two or 3 position players who will be immediate day 1 impact starters. If they do this successfully, they will immediately compete for the division title THIS year.

For once I completely agree with a Cugel post (I even read through the whole thing...)

[Cugel]

I think a lot of people fell in love with the idea of Kirk Cousins, and see Keenum as the plain looking sister at the dance when everybody wants the hot sister. Only that hot sister is going to spend your entire paycheck and in the cold light of morning, she's not really all that hot. Hotter than her sister, yes, but on a scale of 1 to Jessica Alba, not all that.

Others fell in love with the IDEA of drafting a rookie QB even though nearly 1/2 of all QBs taken in the top 5 are busts, along with the overwhelming majority of QBs taken in the later rounds.

Well Broncos fans, you are just going to have to get used to dating the nice sister with a bit of a muffin-top! :laugh:

[Northman]

My god sometimes this board is unbearable.

[Freyaka]

I think a lot of people fell in love with the idea of Kirk Cousins, and see Keenum as the plain looking sister at the dance when everybody wants the hot sister. Only that hot sister is going to spend your entire paycheck and in the cold light of morning, she's not really all that hot. Hotter than her sister, yes, but on a scale of 1 to Jessica Alba, not all that.

Others fell in love with the IDEA of drafting a rookie QB even though nearly 1/2 of all QBs taken in the top 5 are busts, along with the overwhelming majority of QBs taken in the later rounds.

Well Broncos fans, you are just going to have to get used to dating the nice sister with a bit of a muffin-top! :laugh:

I like a little meat on the bones personally.

I was all aboard the Cousins train, I feel like we did the right thing by avoiding him. It was a disaster in the making.

Is Commander Keenum a sexy pick? Not really. Is he a long term solution? Maybe, but most likely not. But he was basically all that is available to us. A qb in the draft isn't likely happening unless we want to reach at #5 for another Paxton Lynch, Cousins was never happening and wasn't as good of an option as originally promised so that leaves Keenum. It isn't pretty, but what other options do we have?

[CoachChaz]

I like a little meat on the bones personally.

I was all aboard the Cousins train, I feel like we did the right thing by avoiding him. It was a disaster in the making.

Is Commander Keenum a sexy pick? Not really. Is he a long term solution? Maybe, but most likely not. But he was basically all that is available to us. A qb in the draft isn't likely happening unless we want to reach at #5 for another Paxton Lynch, Cousins was never happening and wasn't as good of an option as originally promised so that leaves Keenum. It isn't pretty, but what other options do we have?

The thing to keep in mind...at least in my opinion...is that in the process of not having a shot at one of the top QB's in the draft, we will have a shot at many of the top players in the draft. I don't personally think ANY of the QB's available are top 5 overall. Whichever order you put them in, we have a shot at one of Barkley, Nelson, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, Edmunds, Ward...all of which are better overall players than Darnold, Rosen, Allen, Mayfield.

[Northman]

The thing to keep in mind...at least in my opinion...is that in the process of not having a shot at one of the top QB's in the draft, we will have a shot at many of the top players in the draft. I don't personally think ANY of the QB's available are top 5 overall. Whichever order you put them in, we have a shot at one of Barkley, Nelson, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, Edmunds, Ward...all of which are better overall players than Darnold, Rosen, Allen, Mayfield.

Yep.

[Freyaka]

The thing to keep in mind...at least in my opinion...is that in the process of not having a shot at one of the top QB's in the draft, we will have a shot at many of the top players in the draft. I don't personally think ANY of the QB's available are top 5 overall. Whichever order you put them in, we have a shot at one of Barkley, Nelson, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, Edmunds, Ward...all of which are better overall players than Darnold, Rosen, Allen, Mayfield.

I wholeheartedly agree. If we landed Barkley or Chubb this team would instantly be vastly better on one side of the ball or the other. On one hand, Barkley is like an LT level RB that will instantly take the pressure off our QB, on the other hand, if we get Chub, we've got Miller, Ray and Chubb eating greedy and putting pressure on opposing QBs.

If we go BPA instead of QB at #5, I don't think there is a whole lot of way we can go wrong.

[underrated29]

I disagree about Rosen. I think he will be really good.

[underrated29]

If we cant get rosen I want chubb, bad!!! and then Soney Michel in rd 2....or even late rd 1.

For me, as it is now. If Rosen is gone, we move down with Buffalo and well, see my sig for the rest. Thats my ideal unless Rosen is there.

[Northman]

If we cant get rosen I want chubb, bad!!! and then Soney Michel in rd 2....or even late rd 1.

For me, as it is now. If Rosen is gone, we move down with Buffalo and well, see my sig for the rest. Thats my ideal unless Rosen is there.

If Denver can aquire Michel and Kizer my life would be set.

[Freyaka]

I disagree about Rosen. I think he will be really good.

I'd be ok with Rosen, but if I had a choice between Rosen and Barkley, I'd take Barkley every time.

[Northman]

I'd be ok with Rosen, but if I had a choice between Rosen and Barkley, I'd take Barkley every time.

Indeed. Barkley would make a difference from day one. And Keenum would need all the help he could get anyway.

[Freyaka]

Indeed. Barkley would make a difference from day one. And Keenum would need all the help he could get anyway.

If we get Barkley, I don't care who our QB is for the next 5 years, he'll be our offense lol. QB just had to be capable of handing it off.

Barkley is an AP or LT level player.

[topscribe]

I'd be ok with Rosen, but if I had a choice between Rosen and Barkley, I'd take Barkley every time.
I hope against hope Barkley's there. But I'm afraid of what NYG or Cleveland is going to do.

[Freyaka]

I hope against hope Barkley's there. But I'm afraid of what NYG or Cleveland is going to do.

I think Giants take a QB. I'm not sold that they are going to give Eli much more time.

Cleveland will likely take a QB first overall, then draft a defender. It's possible they take Barkley. I think it's also possible someone will trade into pick 4 and take whatever QB is left.

[olathebroncofan]

I think a lot of us agree that we should take Barkley. But would you be willing to trade up to 2 in order to get him?

I think that is the only way we get him. He is a can't miss for the browns at 4.

[underrated29]

Nope. Do not want him that badly. I like him, but I do not see an emormous difference between he and Michel for ex....or even a rashad penny. I do see one, just not that big to warrant moving up for.

[TXBRONC]

You do need a franchise QB, I'm just not convinced there even is one in this draft and if there is, the Broncos may simply not be in position to draft him anyway at #5. What if Josh Rosen is the next Carson Wentz and he's gone to the Giants at #2? Then the Broncos take Baker Mayfield at #5 and he's NOT the guy?

These QBs leave me cold. I'm not posing as a draft expert either, it's that all the experts are all over the place. Usually there's some consensus "this guy #1, this guy #2, this guy #3 Prospect". Not this year.

Lots of mock drafts have Cleveland taking Barkely #1 overall or Chubb, because none of the QBs stand out. Yet we know from history that it's wildly unlikely that all of these guys are going to be stars in the league! The thought that nags me is "what if NONE of them are really great?"

If Elway makes yet another blunder at drafting a Qb that will be a disaster for the team. He's betting his career on this move! (Not to mention that VJ will also be fired).

Plus, they have made ZERO moves in FA to get a T and a starting RG, which is the prerequisite for drafting a QB at #5. They are going into the draft AGAIN! desperately needing a T and a G to upgrade their OL.

My position is: even if the Broncos had Tom Brady this season, they aren't winning the SB this year. That means it's a 3 year rebuilding process. They could take a QB in the second round to develop, dump Paxton, develop Kelly and see if he's worth spit, and strengthen the rest of the team. And hope that Case Keenum continues to play like the top 12 QB he was last year.

#12 in passing yards
#8 in QBR (98.3)
#12 in TDs
#6 in INTs among active starters
#2 behind Drew Brees in completion % (ahead of Brady, Stafford, Ryan, Alex Smith)

These are the stats of a VERY good, but not elite QB. So, critics say things like "he was playing with a great Vikings team and that inflated his stats!" or "He's a one-year wonder" (how do they know?)

People are looking at his career with Jeff Fisher and the Rams, but Foles totally sucked under Fisher, and now is SB MVP, while Goff looked like the worst top 5 QB draft pick since JaMarcus Russell, and suddenly, freed of Fisher for 1 season, suddenly explodes for 28 TDs, 7 Ints, and 3800 yards (#5 in the NFL). I'm not saying Keenum is as good as Goff, but he certainly is better than people are giving him credit for being.

The Broncos need to strengthen their talent dramatically, and they need that #1 pick to do it, whether they take Nelson or Cubb at #5 or trade back and stockpile picks and get a T like McGlinchy or Connor Williams or somebody. Then they get another impact player with another first round pick.

You can say that about any quarterback. What if it is Rosen that's available Denver takes him and he's dud? If I may, I've heard that Allen is similar to Wentz fwiw.

If these guys leave you cold, I respect that. We've said many times have sustain success and getting a Super Bowl, let alone winning it is more like with a franchise quarterback.

The Broncos will do they're going to do. I'm just going to sit back and watch what happens.

[Hawgdriver]

If we get Barkley, I don't care who our QB is for the next 5 years, he'll be our offense lol. QB just had to be capable of handing it off.

Barkley is an AP or LT level player.

Even if Barkley is an AP or LT level player, neither is a good example of how to win championships. I'd love the selection if he's actually as good a football player as his combine scores indicate. It would be fun to watch a Barry Sanders 2.0 show. But more than a few analysts question his film. On the other hand, the Broncos line looks more suited to running than passing, and Keenum needs a legit run game to do his thing. He might be an important missing piece. But the idea of the RB savior doesn't find a lot of historical traction.

2006 LaDainian Tomlinson - 5.2 ypc, 1815y, 507 receiving, 31 TD, QB-Rivers (pro-bowl selection, 7.4 y/a), other RBs running behind same line: 502y, 6.3ypc

LT was a stud cornerstone of a 14-2 team with a great line and elite QB. Lost to NE despite being 1st seed and LT putting up 123 yds at 5.3 ypc, 64 receiving yards, and 2 TDs. Rivers, meanwhile, was what BB chose to shut down: 14 for 32, 0 TD, 1 Int, and in particular, to Gates and Vincent Jackson (104 yards on 15 targets, no TD).

2012 Adrian Peterson - 6.0 ypc, 2097y, 217 receiving, 12 TD, Christian Ponder as QB (2900 yds, 62%, 18TD, 12Int, 5.7y/a), other RBs running behind same line: 169y, 3.4ypc

AP carried his team to a 10-6 wild card spot and had replacement level QB play. The O-Line had a rookie Matt Kalil who made his first and only pro-bowl appearance, converted LT Charlie Johnson as LG who turned in a 6 AV season in his final year in the league, center John Sullivan, Brandon Fusco at RG, and 28 y/o RT Phil Loadholt in his final season, all average or below. The line was nothing special at all. AP carried this offense. Defense was average.

In the Vikings' one and done 24-10 playoff loss to the Packers (really 24-3 except for a garbage time TD), the Packers 'held' AP to 99yds on 22 carries and no scores. The Vikings' passing attack behind backup Joe Webb was ineffective (11 for 30, 180 yds, 1td/1int). AP could not by himself generate points against the league's #11 defense.

2009 CJ2K - 2,509 yards from scrimmage, 8-8 season. QB play was sordid, despite Vince Young earning a pro-bowl nod. Vince Young was 8-2 with 58%, 10TD/7Int, 6.8 y/a, Kerry Collins started the season 0-6 and was a worse QB statistically. Other RB was Lendale White and he sucked. OL was above average, studs at LT and C, average to slightly elsewhere.

CJ2K ran for 193 yards in a 0-59 loss to NE. Looks like BB doesn't prioritize shuting down elite RBs. Against the Chargers, with the playoffs on the line, CJ2K ran for 142 on 21 carries in a 42-17 loss.

2002 Priest Holmes - on pace for 2,000 rushing yards, 1,000 receiving yards before a game 14 horsecollar tackle from Broncos CB Tyrone Poole. Chiefs 8-8 season was a story of league's best offense and worst defense. Chief's OL was superior, but after Holmes was injured backup RB Mike Cloud gained 40 yards in two games (Chiefs went 1-1).

1977 Walter Payton - Carried a 3-5 Bears team to 9-5 on the back of the best 6-game performance by a RB in NFL history, but shut down by Landry's 13-2 championship team 37-7.

1984 Eric Dickerson - 2105y, 10-6, one and done in playoffs--decent defense and one-dimensional offense.

1998 Terrell Davis - SB Champs on the back of TD. Interestingly, TD was not the athletic diamond like many others--blistering 40 speed, 50g juke-knees like Sanders/Charles, mack truck 230lbs+ carriage--but he was a genius with blocks and could read the field and was as tough as they come (kind of the opposite of Barkley, an athletic dancer without toughness).

There are several other great seasons by RBs that didn't lead to much, and very few seasons where they do. They are there--Marshall Faulk (with a good QB), Shaun Alexander (with a good QB), Emmitt Smith (with a good QB). More often they are like CJ2K--racking up yards in 0-59 losses to teams that know how to nullify a team without a competent passing attack, or Barry Sanders--amazing player with a 1-5 playoff record who sucked up a billion dollars of cap space while teams that properly value RB spending actually win playoff games.

To me, drafting a RB in the first round is not supported by the evidence. This article does a better job of explaining it than I could:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/19232156/if-draft-running-back-round-1-better-awesome-2017-nfl-draft

They are overpriced and have short lifespans. Pass on the shiny RB. Even if he's special, is that how you win championships in this era?

*yawn*

offseason smh

[topscribe]

Hmm . . . I was kind of drinking the Barkley kool-aide. But you helped to bring me back
a bit toward my previous attitude about RBs. The RB class is particularly deep this year,
so why invest the #5 on one, even as illustrious as Barkley? Championships are generally
won in the lines . . .

[Cugel]

I hope against hope Barkley's there. But I'm afraid of what NYG or Cleveland is going to do.

The Browns wanted to take Barkley at #1, but now that the Jets moved up to #3 they can't since the Jets want a QB. So, they take a QB, probably Darnold, at #1.

The Giants will be sorely tempted to simply take Barkley at #2 rather than a QB. They need a QB replacement for Eli, but not necessarily this year. They could build around him and hope he lasts another 3 years (he's 37).

Then the Jets take a QB, either Allen or Mayfield (I think Mayfield).

At 4 the Browns would then be tempted to trade with a team that wants Allen (or Mayfield). Presumably this would be the Bills or (just barely possible) the Cardinals. The Broncos could move up too, if they want Allen, but the consensus opinion seems to be that they will take the best player available, either Nelson, Chubb, or Fitzpatrick, OR else trade back and take a T and G or QB later in the first.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I think Cleveland always knew full well that NYG and/or Indy would be trading back. I don't think for a moment that NYJ at 3 effects their board even a little.

[Simple Jaded]

Barkley would give an offense “featuring” Case Keenum an actual identity, he’s the best player in the draft. People that don’t think CK would benefit greatly from an identity at RB are invited to go watch the sheer amount of play action and screens that Vikings dialed up. Barkley also ran a ton out of shotgun where CK has to be to survive.

This offense is going to be the epitome of smoke and mirrors.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Barkley would give an offense “featuring” Case Keenum an actual identity, he’s the best player in the draft. People that don’t think CK would benefit greatly from an identity at RB are invited to go watch the sheer amount of play action and screens that Vikings dialed up.

This offense is going to be the epitome of smoke and mirrors.
That’s an improvement over last year’s smoke only approach.

[Simple Jaded]

That’s an improvement over last year’s smoke only approach.

There was fire too. A dumpster fire.

#SeeWhatIDidThere?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

There was fire too. A dumpster fire.

#SeeWhatIDidThere?

The gift horse- the offense that keeps on giving (the ball away)

[Cugel]

The thing to keep in mind...at least in my opinion...is that in the process of not having a shot at one of the top QB's in the draft, we will have a shot at many of the top players in the draft. I don't personally think ANY of the QB's available are top 5 overall. Whichever order you put them in, we have a shot at one of Barkley, Nelson, Chubb, Fitzpatrick, Edmunds, Ward...all of which are better overall players than Darnold, Rosen, Allen, Mayfield.

Frankly, the Broncos need ALL of those players. Barkley or Nelson will almost certainly be on the board at #5, and possibly both if someone (Buffalo) who wants Mayfield or Allen is willing to trade up to #4 to get him.

Just take a look at these season highlights for Barkley (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwmIAhkQVJw). Lots of players have highlight film, but take a look at the moves, athleticism, agility, and pass catching ability. It just pops off the film. This guy is a future star RB in the NFL. No doubt.

If the Broncos could get that guy at 5 it would be a steal. I'd be fine with Nelson too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi3Um_aHdMk)since he projects as a ten year All-Pro G. Check it out. In his highlights he just buries his man on over 1/2 the plays.

[MOtorboat]

Frankly, the Broncos need ALL of those players.

This seems like a brilliant strategy. Someone get on the ringer to John!

[BroncoJoe]

This seems like a brilliant strategy. Someone get on the ringer to John!

Cugel is the king of stating the obvious - with a 3,000 word post.

[dogfish]

Hmm . . . I was kind of drinking the Barkley kool-aide. But you helped to bring me back
a bit toward my previous attitude about RBs. The RB class is particularly deep this year,
so why invest the #5 on one, even as illustrious as Barkley? Championships are generally
won in the lines . . .

i'd rather take nelson. . . he'll help you get a lot of the same productivity out of a rashaad penny type back as you'd get out of barkley behind our current line-- and give our QBs clean pockets to throw from, as well. . . and when barkley starts winding down, nelson will have another 5-7 years of maximizing your RB production. . . with keenum on a 2-year deal, and no legit QBOTF on hand, the broncos shouldn't just be drafting to build around keenum in the short term-- they should be drafting for the long game. . . but even in the short term, replacing the sieve garcia with a rock does a tremendous amount to make our QB's lives easier. . .

[Hawgdriver]

i'd rather take nelson. . . he'll help you get a lot of the same productivity out of a rashaad penny type back as you'd get out of barkley behind our current line-- and give our QBs clean pockets to throw from, as well. . . and when barkley starts winding down, nelson will have another 5-7 years of maximizing your RB production. . . with keenum on a 2-year deal, and no legit QBOTF on hand, the broncos shouldn't just be drafting to build around keenum in the short term-- they should be drafting for the long game. . . but even in the short term, replacing the sieve garcia with a rock does a tremendous amount to make our QB's lives easier. . .

Yeah...drafting Nelson is like 1/5 drafting Barkley, 1/5 drafting Rosen, etc. Makes so much sense with the amount of uncertainty in our future personnel and scheme.

I watched a lot of Barkley film today. I'm ok with the pick, he reminds me of LT. Not crazy that he's not a Gurley/Elliot finisher type of back, but he's a generational type specimen with production. Kind of makes sense with Keenum, too. It is also cool to watch an asskicker running back.

Not sure if he'd flourish with the line as it is and Musgrave, it's hard for me to explain exactly why. Well...he's not a run up the middle punisher even though he's 230. He excels when he has space, kind of like a Christian McCaffrey that can't be arm-tackled. I think he'll look a lot like his Ohio State film behind this line--but it's possible the 2018 version of this personnel under new coaching will look better.

[topscribe]

i'd rather take nelson. . . he'll help you get a lot of the same productivity out of a rashaad penny type back as you'd get out of barkley behind our current line-- and give our QBs clean pockets to throw from, as well. . . and when barkley starts winding down, nelson will have another 5-7 years of maximizing your RB production. . . with keenum on a 2-year deal, and no legit QBOTF on hand, the broncos shouldn't just be drafting to build around keenum in the short term-- they should be drafting for the long game. . . but even in the short term, replacing the sieve garcia with a rock does a tremendous amount to make our QB's lives easier. . .
Very good points. I've never been a fan of 1st round RBs, actually. Just lost my head for a moment. :)

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Nelson, OL, Notre Dame
Michel, RB, Georgia
White, QB, Western Kentucky
Evan Berry, KR/PR, Tennessee (later rounds)
Thank me later

[SmilinAssasSin27]

http://www.draftblaster.com/2018-nfl-draft/western-kentucky/western-kentucky/mike-white-qb-western-kentucky/

[Cugel]

For all you fans who want the Broncos to draft and develop a QB at #5, when was the last time the Broncos successfully do that? When have the Broncos ever been able to draft a QB and turn him into a long term starter, let alone a star QB? John Elway was a trade, Plummer was a FA, and Peyton was a FA.

When in the last 30 years have the Broncos ever been able to identify a QB in the draft and turn him into a star QB? We saw Paxton Lynch and Trevor Siemian. Was it just that they sucked or was it that this organization just doesn't really know how to develop QBs?

The QBs they drafted and "developed" were Paxton Lynch, Trevor Siemian, Jay Cutler, Brian Griese, Tommy Maddox?

Do you have any confidence in Vance Joseph to be able to do it this time if they draft a very raw Josh Allen or Baker Mayfield?

I have to admit that I just don't. I want veteran QBs because they are already developed. You don't have to develop Case Keenum. He might not be an elite QB but he's good already.

[Krugan]

For all you fans who want the Broncos to draft and develop a QB at #5, when was the last time the Broncos successfully do that? When have the Broncos ever been able to draft a QB and turn him into a long term starter, let alone a star QB? John Elway was a trade, Plummer was a FA, and Peyton was a FA.

When in the last 30 years have the Broncos ever been able to identify a QB in the draft and turn him into a star QB? We saw Paxton Lynch and Trevor Siemian. Was it just that they sucked or was it that this organization just doesn't really know how to develop QBs?

The QBs they drafted and "developed" were Paxton Lynch, Trevor Siemian, Jay Cutler, Brian Griese, Tommy Maddox?

Do you have any confidence in Vance Joseph to be able to do it this time if they draft a very raw Josh Allen or Baker Mayfield?

I have to admit that I just don't. I want veteran QBs because they are already developed. You don't have to develop Case Keenum. He might not be an elite QB but he's good already.

So you are saying, because we havent before, we shouldnt ever? Like in the rare year we get to draft in the top 5. Where most of the big names have come from, that early first round, even though these names arent sure fire greats, there is a higher percentage in this drafting area.

Not sure I get that line of thinking.

[Cugel]

So you are saying, because we havent before, we shouldnt ever? Like in the rare year we get to draft in the top 5. Where most of the big names have come from, that early first round, even though these names arent sure fire greats, there is a higher percentage in this drafting area.

Not sure I get that line of thinking.

No, I don't think Elway is gun shy. He'll pull the trigger again on a Qb if there is one he likes. It's ME who doesn't trust this organizations' ability to develop young QBs. When have they ever done it?

And who has really great confidence VJ and his coaching carousel can do it now? Nothing based on last year presumably.

But, I think the evidence is that Elway's going to stick with Case Keenum for 2 years:



Case Keenum contract is a pretty strong two-year deal (https://www.milehighreport.com/2018/3/16/17131318/case-keenum-contract-broncos)

The Denver Broncos have strongly committed to Case Keenum for the next two years with a cap hit of $15M in 2018 and $21M in 2019.

Dan Graziano
✔
@DanGrazianoESPN

Case Keenum's Broncos deal is for two years, $36M, of which $25M is fully guaranteed at signing. He gets a $6M signing bonus, a fully guaranteed $8M 2018 salary and a $4M 2018 roster bonus. His $18M 2019 salary is guaranteed against injury, and $7M of it is guaranteed at signing.

The $6 million signing bonus means the Broncos will take a $15 million cap hit in 2018 and a bigger $21 million cap hit in 2019, but with the dead cap sitting at $10 million in 2019 it is unlikely the team will even consider moving on from Keenum before the end of his two-year deal.

The likelihood of the Broncos taking a quarterback in the 2018 NFL Draft is still high, but with the potential draft pick having two years to sit it could open some doors for a project quarterback like Josh Allen who would need some time to develop.

First of all, Allen is now unlikely to be on the board past #3 to the Jets or at worst #4 to the Browns (trade).

Note the details of Keenum's contract. The deal has a low cap hit this year, but a high $21m cap hit in 2019. That makes it awfully difficult to move on from Keenum in 2019 unless he's just a disaster.

And what is the point of drafting a QB at #5 and then sitting him on the bench for 2 years?

That's the very definition of a developmental QB. Much more sensible if they want to do that is to draft someone like Mason Rudolph in the late first or 2nd round, perhaps even trading down from #5 to the Bills or someone who wants Mayfield.

They could take a defensive player like S Derwin James ("a faster version of Cam Chancellor" (https://twitter.com/NFL/status/977017891269754880)) and then still get a T like


"The $6 million signing bonus means the Broncos will take a $15 million cap hit in 2018 and a bigger $21 million cap hit in 2019, but with the dead cap sitting at $10 million in 2019 it is unlikely the team will even consider moving on from Keenum before the end of his two-year deal."

[Cugel]

I agree with Mike Klis, 9News Broncos Insider here:


Mike Klis
✔
@MikeKlis

That $7 million full guarantee in 2019 means this is ironclad 2-year deal for Case Keenum. Can't imagine Broncos making solid, 2-year investment in Keenum and then drafting a QB with No. 5 overall pick. That No. 5 pick would have to sit 2 years. But ... you never know. #9sports

Cutting him in 2019 would mean a big cap hit! No way that happens. Of course they COULD sit him on the bench. But, man is that a hell of a lot to pay a guy to hold a clip-board!

[Poet]

Exactly, it's a lot of money to pay a guy to hold a clipboard when his career suggests that more often than not he should be holding a clipboard. Which goes to my overarching point: by signing him and not drafting a QB (and I hope we're smart enough to draft a QB) we are just kicking the can down the road.

[Poet]

Exactly, it's a lot of money to pay a guy to hold a clipboard when his career suggests that more often than not he should be holding a clipboard. Which goes to my overarching point: by signing him and not drafting a QB (and I hope we're smart enough to draft a QB) we are just kicking the can down the road.

I am trying to be more positive. This is a gamble that a slightly worse defense talent wise can still support an offense that hopefully can be more efficient and generate some TOP and field position.

[slim]

I am trying to be more positive. This is a gamble that a slightly worse defense talent wise can still support an offense that hopefully can be more efficient and generate some TOP and field position.

Stop quoting yourself

[Poet]

Stop quoting yourself

It served a purpose for context. Savage!