Signing Keenum Opens the Draft Vault Doors

[WARHORSE]

Cousins is over.


This is a great signing actually...considering. If Cousins truly wanted three years fully guaranteed...can't we see Elway balking? Why pay a ransom then get held hostage in three years? You either wanna drive the bus or you don't.

For where the Broncos are at, Keenum has a LOT to offer. First of all, if you have watched Drew Brees career, you know getting good in the NFL at the QB position takes some time. Keenum was completing almost 70% of his passes last year.....thats a heckuva step up.

Trevor.....59% completion rate.....12 TDs 14 INTs

Keenum.....67% CR.............22 TDs 7 INTs


Whats the highside? Keenum continues to progress and becomes a stud. Lowside? He's stopgap.

Regardless, the draft vault opens with the signing.

Depending on who falls to us at 5, the Broncos doors will be open for business. We already have 6 picks in the top 4 rounds. Can anyone see Buffalo trading up? It would cost them both firsts and more.

If we have two firsts, we also will have the ammo to move back up from 21.

This is just one scenario. Arizona could desire to move up ahead of the Jets.
Anyone in love with Baker, Allen, Rosen or Darnold would be in play.


There are a ton of possibilities now and we have the picks to play the board.

[WARHORSE]

Will Broncos still take a QB? If so...its Baker.

[DenBronx]

Signing a QB actually opens the floodgates for a trade. I can see the Bills trading both of their 1st and then some to us IF their guy falls to #5.

Part of me wants us to trade up and get Barkley. Means CJ would be gone but we do have enough ammo to actually pull something like that off. I doubt the Browns do that with #1 though and I don't see Elway giving up alot of picks.

AND still have enough to sign a DT like Poe, go get a TE or maybe even Nate Solder. Who knows but it opens up alot of scenarios for us.

Wouldn't be shocked if we don't even draft a QB until the 3rd day of the draft. All signs point to keeping Paxton and giving Kelly a legit shot at earning that #2 spot.

[Shazam!]

Will Broncos still take a QB? If so...its Baker.

This would be fantastic. I'd be so excited if they got Mayfield. They are desperate for a guy like him. Hungry, passionate, a leader.

[Dapper Dan]

I admire your optimism.

[Poet]

If we're trading back because we have Keenum we're delaying taking a real QB. That's horrible and inexcusable.

If we signed Keenum so we could groom a QB, then we didn't learn from our mistakes with PL. You start your rookie. Benching him is inexcusable.

This was a horrible signing.

[Cugel]

Signing a QB actually opens the floodgates for a trade. I can see the Bills trading both of their 1st and then some to us IF their guy falls to #5.

Part of me wants us to trade up and get Barkley. Means CJ would be gone but we do have enough ammo to actually pull something like that off. I doubt the Browns do that with #1 though and I don't see Elway giving up alot of picks.

AND still have enough to sign a DT like Poe, go get a TE or maybe even Nate Solder. Who knows but it opens up alot of scenarios for us.

Wouldn't be shocked if we don't even draft a QB until the 3rd day of the draft. All signs point to keeping Paxton and giving Kelly a legit shot at earning that #2 spot.

Buffalo moved up to #12 by trading LT Cordy Glenn and their #21 pick for Cincinatti's #12 pick.


According to multiple reports, the Bills have agreed to send Cordy Glenn to Cincinnati in exchange for a swap of first-round picks, moving them up to 12th from 21st, plus a fifth-round pick (158th overall) for the Bengals’ sixth-round selection (187th). That gives the Bills, who also have two picks in each of the second and third rounds, plenty of ammunition to trade up even higher in a draft expected to see a quartet of highly regarded quarterback prospects go very early.

They have the ammo now to move up to #5 if they want. And the Broncos could want to trade back, acquire 2 first round picks, and take a T at #12 plus get another impact player at #21 and yet another impact player at #40 in the second round. If they make the right moves in the draft this could solidify the roster for years to come.

[Shazam!]

If we're trading back because we have Keenum we're delaying taking a real QB. That's horrible and inexcusable.

If we signed Keenum so we could groom a QB, then we didn't learn from our mistakes with PL. You start your rookie. Benching him is inexcusable.

This was a horrible signing.

Lynch had no one to watch and truly learn from. How much can he have learned from TS? Would have been different if PFM was here when he was selected.

They bought in a guy who can start on day one and help prep Rookie A or Kelly. TS is as good as gone, and i would listen to any offer for Lynch or TS from any QB needy team.

[CoachChaz]

Having a bunch of high draft picks excites me and scares me at the same time. On the positive side, the more high picks we have, the better chance we have of Elway getting at least one of them right. On the other hand, only ONE Elway draft pick has ever made it to a Pro Bowl...and that is the first pick he ever made.

[Cugel]

If we're trading back because we have Keenum we're delaying taking a real QB. That's horrible and inexcusable.

If we signed Keenum so we could groom a QB, then we didn't learn from our mistakes with PL. You start your rookie. Benching him is inexcusable.

This was a horrible signing.

Against this argument is the following points:

Denver drafting at #5 couldn't guarantee that they would have a chance to get the QB they like even if there IS such a QB in this draft, which is not certain.

They would likely get the #3 QB off the board. Instead of reaching for a QB who might be the next bust and who is not their top prospect because their top prospect is off the board at #1 or #2, or #3 (the Colts could trade back) or #4 (the Browns are likely to want to trade back from #4 if they draft a QB #1 overall), they take the best player available.

And at #5 the best player is likely to be an All-Pro talent, possibly a Hall of Fame player. Barkely, Chubb or Quenton Nelson, or Minkah Fitzpatrick? They could have their choice at #5.

Not needing to draft a QB this off season is a great position to be in. Maximum flexibility.

[Poet]

Against this argument is the following points:

Denver drafting at #5 couldn't guarantee that they would have a chance to get the QB they like even if there IS such a QB in this draft, which is not certain.

They would likely get the #3 QB off the board. Instead of reaching for a QB who might be the next bust and who is not their top prospect because their top prospect is off the board at #1 or #2, or #3 (the Colts could trade back) or #4 (the Browns are likely to want to trade back from #4 if they draft a QB #1 overall), they take the best player available.

And at #5 the best player is likely to be an All-Pro talent, possibly a Hall of Fame player. Barkely, Chubb or Quenton Nelson, or Minkah Fitzpatrick? They could have their choice at #5.

Not needing to draft a QB this off season is a great position to be in. Maximum flexibility.

Against your counter argument is this - There are four big QB's. One of them will probably be there. Denver could also just trade up and get their guy, which is a move that people hate, but it can pay dividends. Teams are so wildly differing on which QB they want that we don't know which one will be there, but there's about a zero percent chance the first four picks are QB's. So, the number three QB to one team might be the fourth or first QB to another.

Missing on drafting a QB when your team will likely be 7-9/8-8 and being out of contention for a QB without having to pay even more to move up the next year is a horrid position to be in.

This was just kicking the can down the road.

[CoachChaz]

Against your counter argument is this - There are four big QB's. One of them will probably be there. Denver could also just trade up and get their guy, which is a move that people hate, but it can pay dividends. Teams are so wildly differing on which QB they want that we don't know which one will be there, but there's about a zero percent chance the first four picks are QB's. So, the number three QB to one team might be the fourth or first QB to another.

Missing on drafting a QB when your team will likely be 7-9/8-8 and being out of contention for a QB without having to pay even more to move up the next year is a horrid position to be in.

This was just kicking the can down the road.

Complete negative speculation based purely on ONE opinion. Good grief...go kick a puppy and get it out of your system.

[Poet]

Complete negative speculation based purely on ONE opinion. Good grief...go kick a puppy and get it out of your system.

On one opinion? My opinion? The Pundits, many of whom are skeptical? The same opinion on just about every coach who had him that didn't make him a starter. The other FA QB needy teams who didn't sign him? The team that just had him? What concept of one are you working with?

[Hawgdriver]

If Keenum had more of a body of work than one season, I'd be fine with it. As it is, I see a guy with one year of production nearly identical to Bridgewater and Bradford, but we didn't get the HC/OC/QB coaches, we got a player. Outside of that HC/OC/QB coaching situation, it's been grim, and it's not all Jeff Fischer's fault.

We know Keenum can be solid in the right situation, with a decent offense around him and good coaching. Let's hope that's what he'll get in Denver.

[CoachChaz]

On one opinion? My opinion? The Pundits, many of whom are skeptical? The same opinion on just about every coach who had him that didn't make him a starter. The other FA QB needy teams who didn't sign him? The team that just had him? What concept of one are you working with?

I already covered all of this...I'm not typing it all again. Enjoy what is apparently the worst day of your life, bro.

[Poet]

If Keenum had more of a body of work than one season, I'd be fine with it. As it is, I see a guy with one year of production nearly identical to Bridgewater and Bradford, but we didn't get the HC/OC/QB coaches, we got a player. Outside of that HC/OC/QB coaching situation, it's been grim, and it's not all Jeff Fischer's fault.

We know Keenum can be solid in the right situation, with a decent offense around him and good coaching. Let's hope that's what he'll get in Denver.

Well, we don't have a great defense, but if the offense does something that production on defense goes up. It helps the pass rushers when you have...a...lead...I remember those things.

Beh. Meh. Bleh.

[Poet]

I already covered all of this...I'm not typing it all again. Enjoy what is apparently the worst day of your life, bro.

The problem was that you didn't make a point the first time. I hope you have a splendid day.

[CoachChaz]

The problem was that you didn't make a point the first time. I hope you have a splendid day.

Jesus Christ himself couldn't make a valid point to you today

[Poet]

Jesus Christ himself couldn't make a valid point to you today

We don't speak the same language, so I'm not certain he would be able to. I understand your arguments. They're just not very good or substantiated on substance and merit. I'm sorry.

[tomjonesrocks]

Was hoping for Cousins, but with Keenum's ties to Kubiak this seemed more likely. Hope he isn't a 1-year wonder, but obviously the Vikings didn't have confidence in him which isn't a great sign.

Also seems to show that Denver has fallen as a desire-able destination - which is more than fair considering the grease fire of last season and our current coaching staff.

[CoachChaz]

We don't speak the same language, so I'm not certain he would be able to. I understand your arguments. They're just not very good or substantiated on substance and merit. I'm sorry.

So giving you information on how the coaches, players and local media all revered Keenum as a player and leader isn't substantial? How the previous systems he played in and failed in also had other "failed" Qb's that eventually played better outside of them isn't substantial?

I guess I'm curious as to what information would be substantial enough to you to validate this is NOT a bad short term answer to a HUGE problem.

[Poet]

So giving you information on how the coaches, players and local media all revered Keenum as a player and leader isn't substantial? How the previous systems he played in and failed in also had other "failed" Qb's that eventually played better outside of them isn't substantial?

I guess I'm curious as to what information would be substantial enough to you to validate this is NOT a bad short term answer to a HUGE problem.

The coaches mostly don't want him around, per him moving around the league. I don't think that's a substantial point in your favor. I don't think being loved in a locker room matters if you're not good, per the TS example. The last point is relevant, but let's add in that other QB's looked good in that system in Minny, and it was the only time he's been good.

To defend him, you're giving him reasons why he didn't do well, but not reasons why he's good. There's a difference. The problem is that this isn't a problem that needs a short term answer. This is half baked. I don't think he's very good, and I don't think that he's what the situation calls for.

[underrated29]

King your argument is just not a very good one.

Sure, one of the big 4 QBs may be there. Lets say for example that they only like 2 of them worthy of a top 5 pick. Lets just say 3 to make it easier for you. Lets say they like ROsen, Mayfield and Allen.

Allen goes 1 to cleveland. Rosen 2 to giants, Miami, Bills, saints, Jets, etc trade up with Colts or Cleveland to take Allen, now we are wasting a #5 on a QB. They know more about the QBs then we do. If say Darnold is going to be a bust, by your logic we should still draft him at 5..........What a waste. And if we do not, which is the smart move, then what??? Go into the season with Lynch and Kelly?

Lynch and Kelly? Really???
That would be impossible. We cannot wager the entire next season on the hopes that the QB we like falls to us and if not, we roll with Lynch and Kelly. You know this.


Maybe we can trade up. Maybe not. Maybe it will cost too much. What if buffalo wants to give us 12 and 22 and their 2nd and 3rd....Id take that deal!!!!! But we wont have our boy rosen then. We will have Lamar or Rudolph or someone and a shit ton other picks to build our team.


Lets say we do draft Rosen. He starts for us and leads us to 12 -0 to start the season. Then he gets hurt, IR. Do we then try and maintain 1st seed with Lynch or Kelly? Or do we do what the Vikings just did?
This signing made all the sense in the world. This was the right move by any measuring standard.

#bringbackthestyle
#kinglosthismojo
#stylemojobacktoking

[underrated29]

The coaches mostly don't want him around, per him moving around the league. I don't think that's a substantial point in your favor. I don't think being loved in a locker room matters if you're not good, per the TS example. The last point is relevant, but let's add in that other QB's looked good in that system in Minny, and it was the only time he's been good.

To defend him, you're giving him reasons why he didn't do well, but not reasons why he's good. There's a difference. The problem is that this isn't a problem that needs a short term answer. This is half baked. I don't think he's very good, and I don't think that he's what the situation calls for.



I agree. I do not think he is very good either. He is what the situation calls for though. Cheap, serviceable QB.

[Poet]

I agree. I do not think he is very good either. He is what the situation calls for though. Cheap, serviceable QB.

He's a backup making starter money. The situation called for one of two things: Cousins or getting a round one QB and letting him play. If you want (read, Elway) wanted to be a contender, we were better off keeping the defense intact and going to old Steelers/Jets way of life with a young Big Ben, Sanchez (remember when he looked promising,) Flacco, et al.

This, this was shit.

[Poet]

King your argument is just not a very good one.

Sure, one of the big 4 QBs may be there. Lets say for example that they only like 2 of them worthy of a top 5 pick. Lets just say 3 to make it easier for you. Lets say they like ROsen, Mayfield and Allen.

Allen goes 1 to cleveland. Rosen 2 to giants, Miami, Bills, saints, Jets, etc trade up with Colts or Cleveland to take Allen, now we are wasting a #5 on a QB. They know more about the QBs then we do. If say Darnold is going to be a bust, by your logic we should still draft him at 5..........What a waste. And if we do not, which is the smart move, then what??? Go into the season with Lynch and Kelly?

Lynch and Kelly? Really???
That would be impossible. We cannot wager the entire next season on the hopes that the QB we like falls to us and if not, we roll with Lynch and Kelly. You know this.


Maybe we can trade up. Maybe not. Maybe it will cost too much. What if buffalo wants to give us 12 and 22 and their 2nd and 3rd....Id take that deal!!!!! But we wont have our boy rosen then. We will have Lamar or Rudolph or someone and a shit ton other picks to build our team.


Lets say we do draft Rosen. He starts for us and leads us to 12 -0 to start the season. Then he gets hurt, IR. Do we then try and maintain 1st seed with Lynch or Kelly? Or do we do what the Vikings just did?
This signing made all the sense in the world. This was the right move by any measuring standard.

#bringbackthestyle
#kinglosthismojo
#stylemojobacktoking

No, that's not my logic. My point was that one can't say 'we're going to get the third best QB' when we don't know which one that is, or which one we want. I also added that sometimes you have to trade up and get your guy. I know that's not attractive and hurts short term, but welcome to the NFL. I'm sure the Rams and Eagles are happy with what they did.

So, with all due respect my friend, mind what I actually said.

With regards to backup QB's, why am I anchored with only Kelly or Lynch in this scenario? How much do you think Brocks going to get? Or McGown?

F- post.

[BroncoJoe]

I continually have F- posts.

fify

[Poet]

fify

I'm putting you on ignore and going to go eat a pint (or four) of ice cream.

[slim]

I'm putting you on ignore and going to go eat a pint (or four) of ice cream.

A growing boy needs more than ice cream.

I recommend 4 double cheeseburgers and large fries, then ice cream.

[BroncoJoe]

A growing boy needs more than ice cream.

I recommend 4 double cheeseburgers and large fries, then ice cream.

Or ARBY'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

[underrated29]

He's a backup making starter money. The situation called for one of two things: Cousins or getting a round one QB and letting him play. If you want (read, Elway) wanted to be a contender, we were better off keeping the defense intact and going to old Steelers/Jets way of life with a young Big Ben, Sanchez (remember when he looked promising,) Flacco, et al.

This, this was shit.



What makes you think we will not go that route and get us our big ben, our carson wentz? I have a big big big big hunch that Rosen is our guy and we are going to move up for him!


No, that's not my logic. My point was that one can't say 'we're going to get the third best QB' when we don't know which one that is, or which one we want. I also added that sometimes you have to trade up and get your guy. I know that's not attractive and hurts short term, but welcome to the NFL. I'm sure the Rams and Eagles are happy with what they did.

So, with all due respect my friend, mind what I actually said.

With regards to backup QB's, why am I anchored with only Kelly or Lynch in this scenario? How much do you think Brocks going to get? Or McGown?

F- post.



Maybe we cannot trade up. Then what?
Maybe buffalo gives us an offer we cannot refuse, then what?
Maybe the Giants or Colts want 1sts this year next and 2nd and 3rd this year to move up 2 spots. F that!

Now what?.....

'we're going to get the third best QB' when we don't know which one that is, or which one we want. - so by your quote, if rosen is gone and mayfield and allen too, what do we do? Do we reach and SETTLE for a Darnold? A guy we do not even like that much? Or do we just say F it and draft Lamar Jackson at 5?

You are backing yourself into a corner here, just like the broncos would have done had they not signed this guy.



Id also like to know what you think if we do draft Rosen, and he gets hurt, goes on IR and we are in the playoff hunt or even leading the charge? Would you like to see Lynch come in and piss the rest down the drain?

F post for Fantastic

[Poet]

I hope we get Rosen. I didn't read the rest of what you said because you've failed me with Russian women.

[CoachChaz]

The Keenum signing opens up some versatility. If one of the QB's we really like is available at 5, then I think/hope we grab him there. If not, then we can go with BPA or we can look at trading back. I'm pretty excited at the names that could be available at 5. Even assuming Barkley and Chubb are gone, there is still Edmunds, Nelson, Fitzpatrick, Ward, Smith...

[underrated29]

I hope we get Rosen. I didn't read the rest of what you said because you've failed me with Russian women.

It is not a failure. It is just harder to find a russian girl who wants to eat with you and not eat you!
You have exactly 3 more days to get down here for St. Pattys. I am going out with 4 russian girls (one is czech but she counts cuz theyre all crazy)

[Poet]

It is not a failure. It is just harder to find a russian girl who wants to eat with you and not eat you!
You have exactly 3 more days to get down here for St. Pattys. I am going out with 4 russian girls (one is czech but she counts cuz theyre all crazy)

I would die of alcohol poisoning. I have a drink once or twice a month these days.

[underrated29]

I would die of alcohol poisoning. I have a drink once or twice a month these days.


Hmmmm.....

[Dapper Dan]

It is not a failure. It is just harder to find a russian girl who wants to eat with you and not eat you!
You have exactly 3 more days to get down here for St. Pattys. I am going out with 4 russian girls (one is czech but she counts cuz theyre all crazy)

Where you at?

[Cugel]

Well, now we see another reason why Elway wasn't all in on Cousins: his contract with the Vikings, according to Adam Schefter: 3 years fully guaranteed, total $84 million, $28m per year making him the highest paid QB in NFL history, and the first player in NFL history to get a fully guaranteed contract (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22746875/former-washington-redskins-qb-kirk-cousins-plans-sign-3-year-84m-deal-minnesota-vikings-thursday). And his contract is short enough the he will be back in FA in 2021 at the age of 33 years old and be in line for ANOTHER big pay-day.

And the Vikings can't even franchise him because he has already been franchised twice and he would have a grievance against the team/league if anybody tried (as he threatened to do with the Redskins if they tried to "get something out of Cousins on his way out the door." )

They will be forced to negotiate with Cousins and give him whatever the market will bear at that point. No chance for a "team friendly deal" unless he decides to give them a break because he loves MN and wants to stay.

So, this is a high risk, uncertain reward deal.

That is the most player friendly deal in NFL history. And it doesn't even make the Vikings the odds on favorite to win the NFC! There are still the Eagles who not only have a better overall team than the Vikings, they have a better QB in Carson Wentz, a potential league MVP for most of 2017.

For all we know from their playoff history, Nick Foles is a better playoff QB than Cousins. Then there are the Falcons with Ryan who were recently in the SB, the up and coming Rams with Goff who will only get better, and now they have landed both Peters and Aqib Talib to dramatically strengthen their secondary, the Panthers who were 15-1 a couple of years ago and still have former NFL MVP Cam Newton, the Packers who still have HOF QB Aaron Rogers, and the 49ers who are vastly improved now they have Garapolo.

I feel pretty relaxed about the fact the Broncos didn't sign Cousins. I would have been OK with it, but nobody should lose any sleep over getting Case Keenum rather than Cousins, now that we see what his deal was!

[Rick]

I'll agree that Wentz is better but in no way is Foles better.

*Edit* Missed where you said Foles may be a better PLAYOFF QB. I may give you that one for now.

[Cugel]

Was hoping for Cousins, but with Keenum's ties to Kubiak this seemed more likely. Hope he isn't a 1-year wonder, but obviously the Vikings didn't have confidence in him which isn't a great sign.

Also seems to show that Denver has fallen as a desire-able destination - which is more than fair considering the grease fire of last season and our current coaching staff.

And the Redskins didn't value Kirk Cousins either and were totally unwilling to commit to him, and now they have Alex Smith, which is something of a booby prize compared to them having Kirk Cousins under contract for 4 more years at around $19m a year, which he stated publicly he would have signed for last year if they didn't try and dick him over with another franchise tag (thinking that he would never sign it and that they would have all the negotiating leverage over him).

Sometimes teams get locked into an opinion about a guy and are too stubborn to admit they are just stupid. There's no proof the Vikings are right to value Cousins at $28m a year, fully guaranteed, over Keenum at around $20m a year, not fully guaranteed.

In fact, there's a good chance that they are wrong, since we've never even seen Cousins win a playoff game (to be fair he's only played in one in 2015) whereas Keenum took the Vikings to the NFC Championship. All this stuff is up in the air and we won't really know whether it was a good idea for the Vikings to be all-in on Cousins at that price until a couple years have passed.

But, the odds favor the Vikings not making the SB in an NFC packed with talented up and coming teams over the next 3 years. Then what? They are just assuming that adding Cousins at that price will put them over the top. But, they are still underdogs in the NFC right now behind the Eagles, and possibly the Rams, and maybe even the Packers and Saints (all of whom have better QBs).

[Cugel]

I'll agree that Wentz is better but in no way is Foles better.

*Edit* Missed where you said Foles may be a better PLAYOFF QB. I may give you that one for now.

We're going off a short sample size of course, but Foles IS SB MVP and Cousins has never won a playoff game. So, who the hell knows? Obviously you are right that Cousins career has been better than Foles and nobody really wants Foles over Cousins, but at what price?

Is Cousins about $8 or $9 million a year better than Foles? Really?

[Cugel]

I'd say watch out for the Rams next year.

Not only do they have Goff who is still learning to be better, Wade Phillips has a proven history as a DC that if you give him 2 seasons, plus a couple of key defensive stars he can craft a great, not just good defense. The Rams are now on the verge of becoming a monster defense with a lot of good players and a seriously top rate secondary led by Marcus Peters and Aqib Talib. They are officially the best CB duo in the league right now, obviously better than the Broncos.

Just as Wade Phillips is a better DC than Joe Woods. So, is the Vikings deal for Cousins really going to be worth it? We'll see. But, it's certainly very risky.



Aqib Talib excited to join Marcus Peters, L.A. Rams

By Nick Shook NFL.com
Published: March 10, 2018 at 05:59 p.m.
Updated: March 11, 2018 at 05:06 p.m.

Once trades become official Wednesday, Aqib Talib will be off to the West Coast to begin a new chapter in his career with the Los Angeles Rams.

He'll be joining a secondary that features another newcomer in cornerback Marcus Peters (also acquired via trade) and one of the league's better safeties in Lamarcus Joyner, who received the franchise tag. It shouldn't surprise anyone that Talib is excited for what's next.

"What better place to do it than L.A., man," Talib told NFL Network's James Palmer on Saturday. "With that market. With (defensive coordinator) Wade Phillips. With a young energetic corner on the other side, man, to bring back that youth to me. A great quarterback and Todd Gurley, it's just a great situation in my opinion."

A great situation, no doubt. Talib joins a team that ranked in the top half against the pass and owned the league's best scoring offense (29.9 points per game). A productive offense always makes a defender's life a little easier, but what's really enticing for the veteran is playing opposite Peters, a young, hungry, up-and-coming corner with an outspoken mean streak similar to Talib's.

[Jsteve01]

Wow feel free to continue emo rants. Youre all in on a guy who has multiple warts. Youre willing to gloss those to fit your agenda but we cant use the same standard to prop the guy who just had a fantastic season and got to the nfc championship game? The guy who had the best qbr under pressure in the league last year? That stat speaks volumes. He was top 10 of all qb in the league since 2009 in that category. That is moxy and by no means a fluke.

[Poet]

Wow feel free to continue emo rants. Youre all in on a guy who has multiple warts. Youre willing to gloss those to fit your agenda but we cant use the same standard to prop the guy who just had a fantastic season and got to the nfc championship game? The guy who had the best qbr under pressure in the league last year? That stat speaks volumes. He was top 10 of all qb in the league since 2009 in that category. That is moxy and by no means a fluke.

The problem is that one wart is self-correcting and the over is over-exaggerated. In the other scenario, it's nothing but warts. Everyone wants to blow CK for last year but who cares about the fact that he was utter trash in the playoffs? He did well under pressure. How's he done in his entire career? Don't fall in love with a player over one year, especially when that golden year is that of a game manager.

Ugh. Moxy.

[Cugel]

The problem is that one wart is self-correcting and the over is over-exaggerated. In the other scenario, it's nothing but warts. Everyone wants to blow CK for last year but who cares about the fact that he was utter trash in the playoffs? He did well under pressure. How's he done in his entire career? Don't fall in love with a player over one year, especially when that golden year is that of a game manager.

Ugh. Moxy.

I'd say Keenum at $20m a year is a better deal than Cousins at $28m a year on a 3-year fully guaranteed contract, when you can't even franchise him at the end of it. And would it be better than Baker Mayfield or Josh Rosen, who might both totally flame out for all we know.

Failure rate for 1st round elite QB prospects are about 50% after all. So, it's a coin flip whether the QB the Broncos could draft would be the next Carson Wentz or the next Paxton Lynch. :coffee:

[Jsteve01]

Wow feel free to continue emo rants. Youre all in on a guy who has multiple warts. Youre willing to gloss those to fit your agenda but we cant use the same standard to prop the guy who just had a fantastic season and got to the nfc championship game? The guy who had the best qbr under pressure in the league last year? That stat speaks volumes. He was top 10 of all qb in the league since 2009 in that category. That is moxy and by no means a fluke.

The problem is that one wart is self-correcting and the over is over-exaggerated. In the other scenario, it's nothing but warts. Everyone wants to blow CK for last year but who cares about the fact that he was utter trash in the playoffs? He did well under pressure. How's he done in his entire career? Don't fall in love with a player over one year, especially when that golden year is that of a game manager.

Ugh. Moxy.

Okay then again let's use an equal playing field why don't you tell me what Josh Rosen career record was at UCLA. As far as I remember the only winning season they had while he was there was eight and five three years ago and they've gotten progressively worse since then.

[Poet]

I will never understand why you want to rely so much on collegiate records. A.J. McCarron isn't at the top of my list, is he at yours?

[Jsteve01]

I will never understand why you want to rely so much on collegiate records. A.J. McCarron isn't at the top of my list, is he at yours?

I think it's fair to ask why UCLA was a pretty good football team until Rosen got there. And it's pretty easy to take a look at the starters in the league from last year and evaluate how many of those guys were good Collegiate players on good collegiate teams.

[tomjonesrocks]

If Denver lands Solder, I would love if Saquon Barkley made it to 5 and headed to Denver.

Haven't seen a mock where that happens - and he's probably headed to Cleveland - but a dynamic every-down runner on the team would be so refreshing.

It's far-fetched but unsure getting the (theoretical) 3rd best QB on the board in this particular draft at 5 excites me...

[Jsteve01]

If Denver lands Solder, I would love if Saquon Barkley made it to 5 and headed to Denver.

Haven't seen a mock where that happens - and he's probably headed to Cleveland - but a dynamic every-down runner on the team would be so refreshing.

It's far-fetched but unsure getting the 3rd best QB on the board at 5 excites me. I can't get too excited about taking a running back with the fifth overall pick no matter how impressive he looked at the combine. When you look at the value that was had into the third round last year it makes me lean towards offensive line or potentially a Bradley Chubb with the fifth overall pick

[tomjonesrocks]

I can't get too excited about taking a running back with the fifth overall pick no matter how impressive he looked at the combine. When you look at the value that was had into the third round last year it makes me lean towards offensive line or potentially a Bradley Chubb with the fifth overall pick

Assuming the Broncos lose out on Solder to the freewheeling Browns I could get behind Quenton Nelson as the pick - especially if a couple draft picks could be mined trading back a bit.

[CoachChaz]

Assuming the Broncos lose out on Solder to the freewheeling Browns I could get behind Quenton Nelson as the pick - especially if a couple draft picks could be mined trading back a bit.

I believe Cameron Flemming is still available, so we're not out of tackle options yet...but getting really close. Could also go with a OG in FA (Sitton, Mewhort) and draft a tackle.

[aberdien]

I didn't think Cousins would be worth the money, so I'm ok with getting Keenum for less even if he may not be a great long-term option. I would have preferred Bridgewater.

I don't want QB anymore at 5 though. Either trade back and get a couple of picks in the first, or stay and get O-line.

[Hawgdriver]

Just pick, at whatever selection, the player that will add the most wins.

[Poet]

Just pick, at whatever selection, the player that will add the most wins.

Long term or short term, or a combo?

[Hawgdriver]

Long term or short term, or a combo?

If you believe there are championship windows, then optimize for those, otherwise overall.

[Jsteve01]

Kinger

I think it's fair to ask why UCLA was a pretty good football team until Rosen got there. And went downhill after he arrived. And it's pretty easy to take a look at the starters in the league from last year and evaluate how many of those guys were good Collegiate players on good collegiate teams.

[Poet]

Kinger

I think it's fair to ask why UCLA was a pretty good football team until Rosen got there. And went downhill after he arrived. And it's pretty easy to take a look at the starters in the league from last year and evaluate how many of those guys were good Collegiate players on good collegiate teams.

They went downhill because of him? They were pretty good several years before him - that much I remember. But, in regards to them going downhill because of him, no. He was a three year starter - in 2016, his middle year, he got hurt. They couldn't overcome that. So we're done to two years. Last year, so we're clear, you want to pin that on him? And the year before that, I believe they actually were a disappointment. So again, I hope that you're realizing that your arguments about the best draft prospect in the class are, well, horrible. But, because you bring up the point, and because I love you, I'll continue.

I don't care about winning in college because just about every Heisman did that, and most of those guys were busts. I don't care about winning because A.J. McCarron, who had/has an NFL caliber arm, was a great winner, and he wasn't a top flight prospect. You're comparing apples to oranges. The reason why the playoffs matter so much for Keenum is because a massive portion of the argument for him is 'look at how well he played last year'. Well, he shit he the bed in the playoffs, which is part of last year. Tebow, Young, Bush, Leinart, Dorsey, etc were all winners. Can you not think of great NFL players who didn't win in college? How many winners in college played at 'Bama and sucked or underachieved in the league?

I keep asking why it matters, and you can tell me why it's fair, but you can't show me what it proves. Or, what it suggests.

[Jsteve01]

Kinger

I think it's fair to ask why UCLA was a pretty good football team until Rosen got there. And went downhill after he arrived. And it's pretty easy to take a look at the starters in the league from last year and evaluate how many of those guys were good Collegiate players on good collegiate teams.

They went downhill because of him? They were pretty good several years before him - that much I remember. But, in regards to them going downhill because of him, no. He was a three year starter - in 2016, his middle year, he got hurt. They couldn't overcome that. So we're done to two years. Last year, so we're clear, you want to pin that on him? And the year before that, I believe they actually were a disappointment. So again, I hope that you're realizing that your arguments about the best draft prospect in the class are, well, horrible. But, because you bring up the point, and because I love you, I'll continue.

I don't care about winning in college because just about every Heisman did that, and most of those guys were busts. I don't care about winning because A.J. McCarron, who had/has an NFL caliber arm, was a great winner, and he wasn't a top flight prospect. You're comparing apples to oranges. The reason why the playoffs matter so much for Keenum is because a massive portion of the argument for him is 'look at how well he played last year'. Well, he shit he the bed in the playoffs, which is part of last year. Tebow, Young, Bush, Leinart, Dorsey, etc were all winners. Can you not think of great NFL players who didn't win in college? How many winners in college played at 'Bama and sucked or underachieved in the league?

I keep asking why it matters, and you can tell me why it's fair, but you can't show me what it proves. Or, what it suggests.

Im saying other than Goff show me one qb in the league whose teams have been consistently bad and has then turned into a winner in the nfl. And it isnt concidence that they were good for 5 years prior to Him signing and then got bad. Im not saying that every good college qb is a good nfl qb. Exactly the opposite. Almost every good nfl qb was a winner collegiately.

[Poet]

Im saying other than Goff show me one qb in the league whose teams have been consistently bad and has then turned into a winner in the nfl. And it isnt concidence that they were good for 5 years prior to Him signing and then got bad. Im not saying that every good college qb is a good nfl qb. Exactly the opposite. Almost every good nfl qb was a winner collegiately.

John Elway is the most obvious response to this.


You cannot blame a team's issues on a single player. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the same coach who was there before him was at fault? Do you recall any of the woes about the team? Do you know anything about the team other then the name of it? Because from the sound of it, I think you're creatively trying to invent a reason to knock the guy.

[topscribe]

Signing a QB actually opens the floodgates for a trade. I can see the Bills trading both of their 1st and then some to us IF their guy falls to #5.

Part of me wants us to trade up and get Barkley. Means CJ would be gone but we do have enough ammo to actually pull something like that off. I doubt the Browns do that with #1 though and I don't see Elway giving up alot of picks.

AND still have enough to sign a DT like Poe, go get a TE or maybe even Nate Solder. Who knows but it opens up alot of scenarios for us.

Wouldn't be shocked if we don't even draft a QB until the 3rd day of the draft. All signs point to keeping Paxton and giving Kelly a legit shot at earning that #2 spot.
If I'm not mistaken, I think Solder has already signed with somebody. I believe he's overrated,
anyway. Would love to get Poe, which is a realistic possibility now. Wouldn't be surprised if
Barkley is the overall #1 since Cleveland has signed a QB and can come back at #4, anyway.

[Jsteve01]

Im saying other than Goff show me one qb in the league whose teams have been consistently bad and has then turned into a winner in the nfl. And it isnt concidence that they were good for 5 years prior to Him signing and then got bad. Im not saying that every good college qb is a good nfl qb. Exactly the opposite. Almost every good nfl qb was a winner collegiately.

John Elway is the most obvious response to this.


You cannot blame a team's issues on a single player. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the same coach who was there before him was at fault? Do you recall any of the woes about the team? Do you know anything about the team other then the name of it? Because from the sound of it, I think you're creatively trying to invent a reason to knock the guy.

Of course I'm using stats to support my opinion bro. And as much as I love John we always talk about you can't compare Generations I'm talking about in the league right now other than Jared Goff name a good quarterback for me who sucked in college or whose team sucked in college and went on to a productive NFL career. Beyond that I would say what was Stanford's record prior to and after Elway being there?

[Poet]

Of course I'm using stats to support my opinion bro. And as much as I love John we always talk about you can't compare Generations I'm talking about in the league right now other than Jared Goff name a good quarterback for me who sucked in college or whose team sucked in college and went on to a productive NFL career. Beyond that I would say what was Stanford's record prior to and after Elway being there?

Steve, what is this indicative of? What does this suggest or 'prove'?

[Simple Jaded]

If I'm not mistaken, I think Solder has already signed with somebody. I believe he's overrated,
anyway. Would love to get Poe, which is a realistic possibility now. Wouldn't be surprised if
Barkley is the overall #1 since Cleveland has signed a QB and can come back at #4, anyway.

NY Giants.

[Jsteve01]

Fair question. I would compare this to the effect of antidepressants. We don't know why they work biologically, but they do. So Josh Rosen is a depressant. No what I'm saying is that UCLA was a relatively good football team for 4 years prior to rosen's arrival. They were moderately good I believe 8 and 5 during his freshman year. And got progressively worse after that. Obviously there are numerous variables that could have factored into that. Maybe Mora just lost his ability to coach. Maybe he was a terrible recruiter and once his recruiting classes started to infiltrate the program they went downhill but I would say that it's not just anecdotal to note that in today's League the only guy that was a good starter last year in the NFL whose teams were shity in college is Jared Goff. A guy who by the way after his rookie season was pretty much universally accepted as heading for bus status until Sean McVay who now is acknowledged as one of the great young minds and football took over the team and created a system to fit his skill set. Even then Jared Goff was known to have physical tools prior to last year's draft, and had none of the character personality concerns that have followed Rosen around for four years. And to be honest with you King I just like to argue

[Poet]

Fair question. I would compare this to the effect of antidepressants. We don't know why they work biologically, but they do. So Josh Rosen is a depressant. No what I'm saying is that UCLA was a relatively good football team for 4 years prior to rosen's arrival. They were moderately good I believe 8 and 5 during his freshman year. And got progressively worse after that. Obviously there are numerous variables that could have factored into that. Maybe Mora just lost his ability to coach. Maybe he was a terrible recruiter and once his recruiting classes started to infiltrate the program they went downhill but I would say that it's not just anecdotal to note that in today's League the only guy that was a good starter last year in the NFL whose teams were shity in college is Jared Goff. A guy who by the way after his rookie season was pretty much universally accepted as heading for bus status until Sean McVay who now is acknowledged as one of the great young minds and football took over the team and created a system to fit his skill set. Even then Jared Goff was known to have physical tools prior to last year's draft, and had none of the character personality concerns that have followed Rosen around for four years. And to be honest with you King I just like to argue

They were a good football team. They kept the same coach. Look at the diggity dayum coach! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

The teammates at UCLA were on record as of liking him. I don't know what to say to you other than that. Regarding his personality, he's a type a alpha male who challenges his teammates and his coaches. He's a football genius who devours film, and understands the game on a systemic level. He's got a good arm. He can make all the throws. He's mechanically strong. He needs to gain a few pounds in muscle, which many QB's end up doing. He had a shoulder injury and a concussion.

He's the best player in the draft. I know that we like to pump up offensive lineman, but a guard is a guard. They don't matter unless you have a QB. He should be the number one pick in the draft, and if the Browns and Giants pass on him they're sorry. If Elway passes on him to draft a lineman he should be fired for incomptency. The only reason this guy isn't being touted as the number one QB in the draft is because of reasons I can't get into here.

Here's the shorter version - you're a bad person and you kick children!

[Simple Jaded]

Let’s be real here, children are ass holes.

[topscribe]

Let’s be real here, children are ass holes.
That's not nice. I made up my mind a long time ago I wasn't going to grow up, and now look what you're calling me . . .

[Jsteve01]

Fair question. I would compare this to the effect of antidepressants. We don't know why they work biologically, but they do. So Josh Rosen is a depressant. No what I'm saying is that UCLA was a relatively good football team for 4 years prior to rosen's arrival. They were moderately good I believe 8 and 5 during his freshman year. And got progressively worse after that. Obviously there are numerous variables that could have factored into that. Maybe Mora just lost his ability to coach. Maybe he was a terrible recruiter and once his recruiting classes started to infiltrate the program they went downhill but I would say that it's not just anecdotal to note that in today's League the only guy that was a good starter last year in the NFL whose teams were shity in college is Jared Goff. A guy who by the way after his rookie season was pretty much universally accepted as heading for bus status until Sean McVay who now is acknowledged as one of the great young minds and football took over the team and created a system to fit his skill set. Even then Jared Goff was known to have physical tools prior to last year's draft, and had none of the character personality concerns that have followed Rosen around for four years. And to be honest with you King I just like to argue

They were a good football team. They kept the same coach. Look at the diggity dayum coach! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

The teammates at UCLA were on record as of liking him. I don't know what to say to you other than that. Regarding his personality, he's a type a alpha male who challenges his teammates and his coaches. He's a football genius who devours film, and understands the game on a systemic level. He's got a good arm. He can make all the throws. He's mechanically strong. He needs to gain a few pounds in muscle, which many QB's end up doing. He had a shoulder injury and a concussion.

He's the best player in the draft. I know that we like to pump up offensive lineman, but a guard is a guard. They don't matter unless you have a QB. He should be the number one pick in the draft, and if the Browns and Giants pass on him they're sorry. If Elway passes on him to draft a lineman he should be fired for incomptency. The only reason this guy isn't being touted as the number one QB in the draft is because of reasons I can't get into here.

Here's the shorter version - you're a bad person and you kick children!


You could have saved yourself a ton of typing and just stuck to the personal attacks. You do better in that arena haha So subjectively speaking you are telling me he's the best player in the draft. Subjectively speaking I am saying I am not convinced that he is the best qb in the draft let alone player. I cant evaluate all the dynamics that led to the aforementioned decline during his era but it truly concerns me. As does his build. And his genetic disposition toward bedazzled spandex and ice skates. And your breath is horrid due to bad hygiene. Pull it together man

[Hawgdriver]

And his genetic disposition toward bedazzled spandex and ice skates.

It works for that one QB in New England.

[Rick]

If I'm not mistaken, I think Solder has already signed with somebody. I believe he's overrated,
anyway. Would love to get Poe, which is a realistic possibility now. Wouldn't be surprised if
Barkley is the overall #1 since Cleveland has signed a QB and can come back at #4, anyway.

I wanted Solder because he is a good tackle but to be honest part of it was sentimental reasons as he went to my towns high school.

[Shazam!]

Let’s be real here, children are ass holes.

Please elaborate.

[Jsteve01]

Joe is right. King really is slipping. I feel like the name should be von duker or von cabinet member. King hmmm

[Rick]

Von Jester.

[Jsteve01]

Jackson just stated that Taylor is the qb for the browns in 2018. There will be no competition

[Rick]

Smoke screen. He is the QB in 2018 with no competition based on the roster today.

[underrated29]

I see it as Josh Allen will be a brown but will not be in competition with Taylor for 2018. He will sit and learn for a year. 2019 all bets are off.

[BroncoJoe]

Smart move.

[Dapper Dan]

He’s going to wear number 4. I don’t like the Britton colquitt disrespect.

[Ziggy]

Having a bunch of high draft picks excites me and scares me at the same time. On the positive side, the more high picks we have, the better chance we have of Elway getting at least one of them right. On the other hand, only ONE Elway draft pick has ever made it to a Pro Bowl...and that is the first pick he ever made.

Malik made the pro bowl as well. It was just with a different team, but your point is fair. Elway has supplemented very well with free agency. His drafting has left a lot to be desired.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I think Cleveland takes Barkley and a QB and picks #2 and 3 will be completed by teams not currently owning them. Buffalo will be sniffing. So will Arizona and NY Jets. A sleeper team to watch is Pittsburgh too. Ben almost retired this year and although I like Dobbs they won't be handing him the reins very soon.

So with that said...what QB would be there for us? All 4 "studs" have their issues. Do we want any of the 4 just to get someone or is there that 1 guy? If there is that 1 guy, get him and draft a couple of OL very soon after. If not, it has to be Nelson.

[Poet]

Wentz and Goff had their issues, too. So did Watson. I bet a lot of teams would love to redo those drafts right now.

Allen is the toast of the town and he will be gone. Everyone seems to have us taking Mayfield. Let's say someone takes him. So then we're looking at Rosen and Darnold? The only one of those guys I don't really want is Allen, because the last guy to threw for such a bad percentage in college and do well in the pros was Palmer. Sure, they all have their flaws. But let's say one is there, and the indications are that he projects as a future pro bowl QB. Just assume that for a second, if that's the case, does it matter that there's this studly guard there? Would anyone take Bruce Matthews or whomever they think the best guard of all time is over a long term pro bowl QB?

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Wentz and Goff had their issues, too. So did Watson. I bet a lot of teams would love to redo those drafts right now.

Allen is the toast of the town and he will be gone. Everyone seems to have us taking Mayfield. Let's say someone takes him. So then we're looking at Rosen and Darnold? The only one of those guys I don't really want is Allen, because the last guy to threw for such a bad percentage in college and do well in the pros was Palmer. Sure, they all have their flaws. But let's say one is there, and the indications are that he projects as a future pro bowl QB. Just assume that for a second, if that's the case, does it matter that there's this studly guard there? Would anyone take Bruce Matthews or whomever they think the best guard of all time is over a long term pro bowl QB?

But the future pro bowl assumption isn't necessarily being assigned to this group. They are intriguing in some aspects, sure. The toast of the town is different based on who you are talking to. All 4 are loved by some and hated by some. I really don't remember seeing so many opinions all over the place on a group. ANY of the 4 can go first. Aside from Darnolds INTs, he throws a damn pretty ball and can drop it anywhere. Rosen has skills, but he scares people off. Mayfield is a short system punk with no self control. Allen can't complete60% in a terrible league. OR they could all be in the Hall. So the premise that we should be as confident in these QBs as we are in the Guard is flawed. Nobody is betting against this kid. A bunch say he is best since Faneca. IF the apple of Elway's eye is at 5...get him. But don't settle and reach when as sure of a thing as you can get is waiting for you at a position that can greatly benefit your team.

[Poet]

I don't care if it's assigned - if the team is developing these guys they should pan out so long as they work hard enough. You don't have to be a Luck to pan out. There's no doubt that these guys have the potential to be great. And, to be honest, it's the job of the GM to find the coach who can get the right groups together to make them good enough. If Elway can't do that, he doesn't need this job. If VJ can't do that, he doesn't need this job. It's that simple. Rosen's 'flaw's are mostly fiction, fwiw.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

If we stay at 5 and don’t draft a QB, the order of draft picks must be Chubb, Barkley, Fitzpatrick, then Nelson (I’d trade back before I drafted Nelson at 5).

Chubb first because our pass rush was garbage last year and nothing fixes a defense like pass rush.
Barkley because he’s an exceptional talent, but not over Chubb because RB is deep this draft.
Fitzpatrick because he’s a premier, versatile talent at a premier position.

[Simple Jaded]

Minkah plays for Bama, we can forget about him.

[Simple Jaded]

Please elaborate.

How? It’s pretty cut and dried.

[chazoe60]

Minkah plays for Bama, we can forget about him.

Good. The thought of using the 5th pick in the draft to replace one of the best CBs on the planet that we just traded will piss me off. By trading Talib Elway was saying our young CBs and some cheaper depth signings are all we need so to then draft a CB so high would be a really bad mistake.

It'd be like digging a hole in your backyard because you need the dirt to fill in another hole in your backyard.

[Hawgdriver]

Good. The thought of using the 5th pick in the draft to replace one of the best CBs on the planet that we just traded will piss me off. By trading Talib Elway was saying our young CBs and some cheaper depth signings are all we need so to then draft a CB so high would be a really bad mistake.

It'd be like digging a hole in your backyard because you need the dirt to fill in another hole in your backyard.

when you put it like that

[Simple Jaded]

He’d play slot receivers, they could actually really use him.

Too many Bama DB busts, not sure I’d want to take that chance.

[chazoe60]

He’d play slot receivers, they could actually really use him.

Too many Bama DB busts, not sure I’d want to take that chance.

He and Allen are the two guys of all the discussed possibilities @5 that would piss me off. I'm sure Minkah is a fantastic player and a great guy but all I would be thinking on draft night is "we had one of the best CBs on the planet AND the 5th overall pick, now we have a rookie CB........"

[Simple Jaded]

He and Allen are the two guys of all the discussed possibilities @5 that would piss me off. I'm sure Minkah is a fantastic player and a great guy but all I would be thinking on draft night is "we had one of the best CBs on the planet AND the 5th overall pick, now we have a rookie CB........"

Could’ve kept Talib and not tendered the restricted free agents, far as I’m concerned, they sure as hell didn’t get rid of Talibing because it makes them a better team.

McGovern, Corey Nelson, Deiontrez Mount and Talibing is a better team than Paradis, Davis, Barrett and Brock. IMO.

[Hawgdriver]

I really wish they still had Talib. It's just sinking in.

[dogfish]

I really wish they still had Talib. It's just sinking in.

we stopped talibing, hawg. . .

[Poet]

I really wish they still had Talib. It's just sinking in.

The bright side is that if you consistently let older players go a year early as opposed to a year too late you win out in the long term. If we can do this when a player has at least one more solid season left, then we will be able to consistently acquire capital that we would otherwise not have. From a pure transaction standpoint this is the stronger route to take. Unfortunately, we might have had different motives than just that, as Talib and VJ seem destined to be opponents. Still, with a situation as difficult as that one, it makes the pick we got that much more important.

Let's just hope that the acquiring of the picks will be the norm, and not the stormy dramas surrounding it.

[MOtorboat]

Good. The thought of using the 5th pick in the draft to replace one of the best CBs on the planet that we just traded will piss me off. By trading Talib Elway was saying our young CBs and some cheaper depth signings are all we need so to then draft a CB so high would be a really bad mistake.

It'd be like digging a hole in your backyard because you need the dirt to fill in another hole in your backyard.

Whoa. Just whoa.

Man, I love Talib. I'm all in on Talib and Peters in LA - 'Engle-wood up to no good'!

BUT...Talib will turn 33 10 days after next year's Super Bowl. He's 32 at a position that just beats the hell out of even the best athletes. He's the type of guy who's great on a winning team. The attitude is OK on that winning team. It's not OK on a losing team. In fact, I think it has very little to do with the coach, good or bad, and keep in mind I don't like Joseph right now. It's more about Talib. To get a fifth-round pick out of him is a good thing.

There's a strong chance for a negative opportunity cost with this trade. But, and this is where I wonder about Hawg's involvement in this conversation, if we're beginning to look at this in a baseball sense and how to get win shares out of each position, a 21-year-old Minkah Fitzpatrick, under contract for four years before his contract hits the point that it equals the payout of Talib's, might be the better choice.

Talib's AV, according to PFF, was 9 in 2017. The 8th best cornerback in the league according to that metric. You're essentially paying $1.3 million for each point of approximate value.

The last cornerback taken at 5 was Jalen Ramsey. He had an AV of 8 as a rookie. I'm not saying Fitzpatrick IS Ramsey, who is going to be a perennial all-pro like Ramsey. But, if he can get 6 AV with a cap hit of $4 million, you're picking up win value and adding a fifth round pick.

I'm not saying it's fool-proof, obviously, just that we should think about that as we digest the Talib move.

[chazoe60]

Whoa. Just whoa.

Man, I love Talib. I'm all in on Talib and Peters in LA - 'Engle-wood up to no good'!

BUT...Talib will turn 33 10 days after next year's Super Bowl. He's 32 at a position that just beats the hell out of even the best athletes. He's the type of guy who's great on a winning team. The attitude is OK on that winning team. It's not OK on a losing team. In fact, I think it has very little to do with the coach, good or bad, and keep in mind I don't like Joseph right now. It's more about Talib. To get a fifth-round pick out of him is a good thing.

There's a strong chance for a negative opportunity cost with this trade. But, and this is where I wonder about Hawg's involvement in this conversation, if we're beginning to look at this in a baseball sense and how to get win shares out of each position, a 21-year-old Minkah Fitzpatrick, under contract for four years before his contract hits the point that it equals the payout of Talib's, might be the better choice.

Talib's AV, according to PFF, was 9 in 2017. The 8th best cornerback in the league according to that metric. You're essentially paying $1.3 million for each point of approximate value.

The last cornerback taken at 5 was Jalen Ramsey. He had an AV of 8 as a rookie. I'm not saying Fitzpatrick IS Ramsey, who is going to be a perennial all-pro like Ramsey. But, if he can get 6 AV with a cap hit of $4 million, you're picking up win value and adding a fifth round pick.

I'm not saying it's fool-proof, obviously, just that we should think about that as we digest the Talib move.

So save money, get younger and only a slight drop off in production? And all it would cost us is the 5th pick in the draft? Neat.

[Cugel]

Jackson just stated that Taylor is the qb for the browns in 2018. There will be no competition

More interesting fodder for the rest of the league. They can either take a QB at #1 meaning that they could take Sam Darnold, who is very young but potentially very good, or Josh Allen, who has the cannon arm, but needs development, etc. They would not need to start a rookie.

Or they could take Barkley at #1 and get Allen, Mayfield (who they reportedly like) or whichever other QB fell to #4. They probably have their pick of 2 of the top 4 QBs and possibly three, since the Giants might take Chubb #2 overall.

[chazoe60]

Solidify the OL and draft Sony Michel and Kyle Lauletta that's my draft hopes right now.

Trade and get a combo of McGlinchey and Hernandez or just draft Nelson, either way is fine with me, then draft Sony and Lauletta. That would be a killer draft.

[aberdien]

It seems like Elway truly wanted Keenum to be our starting QB. So that leads me to believe he wants to build around him rather than draft a QBOTF.

[slim]

It seems like Elway truly wanted Keenum to be our starting QB. So that leads me to believe he wants to build around him rather than draft a QBOTF.

Maybe. But if that's the case, why only a 2 year deal?

[Rick]

Incase he is wrong.

[Buff]

The thing about missing on QBs in the first round is that they don't help your team at all...

If you miss on a positional player in the 1st round - they might be able to contribute on special teams, or as a backup in some capacity... But a 1st round QB who isn't ready just kills you in the opportunity cost of missing out on another 1st round talent, and then doesn't contribute in any way. I think Elway still wants to give Lynch one more year to develop, and doesn't want to gamble on another QB in the first round...

I think it's possible they could fall in love with a QBOTF if they feel like it's a can't-miss, but I believe his bias is to not take another 1st round QB if he can avoid it.

[Poet]

Bad lineman get traded for peanuts, just like QB's do.

[Cugel]

But the future pro bowl assumption isn't necessarily being assigned to this group. They are intriguing in some aspects, sure. The toast of the town is different based on who you are talking to. All 4 are loved by some and hated by some. I really don't remember seeing so many opinions all over the place on a group. ANY of the 4 can go first. Aside from Darnolds INTs, he throws a damn pretty ball and can drop it anywhere. Rosen has skills, but he scares people off. Mayfield is a short system punk with no self control. Allen can't complete60% in a terrible league. OR they could all be in the Hall. So the premise that we should be as confident in these QBs as we are in the Guard is flawed. Nobody is betting against this kid. A bunch say he is best since Faneca. IF the apple of Elway's eye is at 5...get him. But don't settle and reach when as sure of a thing as you can get is waiting for you at a position that can greatly benefit your team.

That is what worries me as well. There is just ZERO consensus about which QBs are the best, everybody disagrees. Some insist that none of them are worth a top 5 pick, and that Cleveland and the Giants should take Chubb and Barkley and then take a QB later.

Others think Darnold has this amazing upside, but some disagree, while some have Allen the #1 overall pick, and other say he's a late first rounder.

I've never seen such disagreement, and that can't be a good thing, because some are certain to be wrong. What if it's the people who love some QB?

What if NONE of them are really any good? I've heard good things about Rosen, but he shouldn't be there at #5 if all the good things said about him are to be believed. Denver would probably have to trade up to #3 to have any chance of getting him, and that would cost a lot.

As in the Broncos 1st and 2nd round pick, at a minimum.

#3 = 2200 points
#5 = 1700 points
2200 - 1700 = 500 points, which is exactly the value of Pick #40, the Broncos pick in the 2nd round.

They would be giving up essentially their entire draft to get a QB and not strengthening their team at all.

They have too many damn holes to fill to do that. They need about 7 or 8 new impact players before they could hope to win another SB. And the draft is really the only way to get them at an affordable price.

Now they have Keenum they need to concentrate on getting players around him for a season. If they want to take a QB in the second round and try and develop him, fine.

To trade up is even worse than drafting a QB at #5 now they have Keenum.

[Simple Jaded]

QB’s in the 2nd round aren’t as good as the Top 4, that’s why you take one when you’re in position to take one.

**** Case Keenum, he’s not even close to the level of QB that makes you pass on better prospects. Unless the Broncos are still open to PL developing into a franchise QB they need to strike while they have the draft capital, they’re looking at drafting late teens/early 20’s for the foreseeable future.

Good God, people, it’s Case ... Keenum!

[Poet]

QB’s in the 2nd round aren’t as good as the Top 4, that’s why you take one when you’re in position to take one.

**** Case Keenum, he’s not even close to the level of QB that makes you pass on better prospects. Unless the Broncos are still open to PL developing into a franchise QB they need to strike while they have the draft capital, they’re looking at drafting late teens/early 20’s for the foreseeable future.

Good God, people, it’s Case ... Keenum!

The bar is so low because of TS, that anything, even a one year wonder, looks like a franchise. FFS, we have people stoked about a game manager's completion percentage...

[dogfish]

QB’s in the 2nd round aren’t as good as the Top 4, that’s why you take one when you’re in position to take one.

**** Case Keenum, he’s not even close to the level of QB that makes you pass on better prospects. Unless the Broncos are still open to PL developing into a franchise QB they need to strike while they have the draft capital, they’re looking at drafting late teens/early 20’s for the foreseeable future.

Good God, people, it’s Case ... Keenum!

deep breath. . . VJ is our head coach. . . we're gonna have a top ten pick next year, too. . .

[Simple Jaded]

The bar is so low because of TS, that anything, even a one year wonder, looks like a franchise. FFS, we have people stoked about a game manager's completion percentage...

What hit me today is that there are Broncos fans that are actually excited about a Kubiak protege, which probably means a return to that dink and dunk offense that had so many fans pulling their hair out 2-3 years ago.

This is a Kubiak guy, how am I the one saying pump the brakes instead of the other way around?

I’m incredulous at this point, it feels like we’re getting CK confused with Cousins, even though he is galactically overrated too.

[Cugel]

QB’s in the 2nd round aren’t as good as the Top 4, that’s why you take one when you’re in position to take one.

IF they are "in position to take one."

#1 - None of these prospects stands out as a future star QB, which means none of them might ultimately become great. Some years are like that: 2013 for instance:

RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL TEAM
1 16 EJ Manuel QB Florida State Buffalo Bills
2 39 Geno Smith QB West Virginia New York Jets
3 73 Mike Glennon QB North Carolina State Tampa Bay Buccaneers
4 98 Matt Barkley QB USC Philadelphia Eagles
4 110 Ryan Nassib QB Syracuse New York Giants
4 112 Tyler Wilson QB Arkansas Oakland Raiders
4 115 Landry Jones QB Oklahoma Pittsburgh Steelers
7 221 Brad Sorensen QB Southern Utah San Diego Chargers
7 234 Zac Dysert QB Miami (Ohio) Denver Broncos
7 237 B.J. Daniels QB South Florida San Francisco 49ers
7 249 Sean Renfree QB Duke Atlanta Falcons

[Cugel]

#2 IF there is a Carson Wentz in this draft he might go #1 to Cleveland or #2 to the Giants and they aren't willing to trade that pick because they identify him as their franchise Qb. So, the Broncos might not even be in position to draft that player, even if there is one.

Then you are down to the #3 QB taken, and that is just what the Broncos drafted in 2016. Goff and Wentz were off the board #1 and #2 and the Broncos got the "next best" QB off the board at #26, only that was Paxton Lynch. Obviously that doesn't always work out.

If you aren't sure, then don't draft a guy at #5. That is way too high to swing and miss!

[Cugel]

Another point: we don't know what Case Keenum will be here in Denver. If he plays like he did in 2017 they Broncos will sign him to a long-term deal. If not, they certainly won't be drafting in the 20's! More likely the top 10 again next season.

And they will then be in position to take another stab at QB.
So, unless Elway is SURE, he'd better pass. He's staking his career on this one. Three strikes and you're out! Strike 1 was Brock. Strike 2 Paxton. . . . .

[Simple Jaded]

It’s Case ... Keenum!

[topscribe]

Another point: we don't know what Case Keenum will be here in Denver. If he plays like he did in 2017 they Broncos will sign him to a long-term deal. If not, they certainly won't be drafting in the 20's! More likely the top 10 again next season.

And they will then be in position to take another stab at QB.
So, unless Elway is SURE, he'd better pass. He's staking his career on this one. Three strikes and you're out! Strike 1 was Brock. Strike 2 Paxton. . . . .
Once again, Paxton has played all of four (4) regular season games in the NFL.

The jury is still out . . .

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Another point: we don't know what Case Keenum will be here in Denver. If he plays like he did in 2017 they Broncos will sign him to a long-term deal. If not, they certainly won't be drafting in the 20's! More likely the top 10 again next season.

And they will then be in position to take another stab at QB.
So, unless Elway is SURE, he'd better pass. He's staking his career on this one. Three strikes and you're out! Strike 1 was Brock. Strike 2 Paxton. . . . .

And IMHO that is the only point that matters. Keenum signing has a risk factor. If he fails we are in the same boat next year but with a better oline (hopefully), a youth injection on D and most importantly...another season under Lynch's belt to assess him. If he succeeds we already have the groundwork to make a real run.

We just signed a guy who had a good season and have 2 youngsters who still need evaluated. Why toss another rookie in the mix right now?

[Northman]

QB’s in the 2nd round aren’t as good as the Top 4, that’s why you take one when you’re in position to take one.

**** Case Keenum, he’s not even close to the level of QB that makes you pass on better prospects. Unless the Broncos are still open to PL developing into a franchise QB they need to strike while they have the draft capital, they’re looking at drafting late teens/early 20’s for the foreseeable future.

Good God, people, it’s Case ... Keenum!

I have my doubts about Keenum as well but with Lynch and Kelly still on the team im not convinced that Denver wastes a pick at #5 on a QB. Maybe later in the draft but it would be foolish to take yet another QB in the first round this year.

[topscribe]

I have my doubts about Keenum as well but with Lynch and Kelly still on the team im not convinced that Denver wastes a pick at #5 on a QB. Maybe later in the draft but it would be foolish to take yet another QB in the first round this year.
There's where we agree. I will be mildly surprised if the Broncos select a QB with their #5.

[Poet]

I have my doubts about Keenum as well but with Lynch and Kelly still on the team im not convinced that Denver wastes a pick at #5 on a QB. Maybe later in the draft but it would be foolish to take yet another QB in the first round this year.

We will kick the can down the road.