Here's what it would cost the Broncos to sign Kirk Cousins

[weazel]

Washington Redskins quarterback Kirk Cousins is set to become a free agent this offseason and many NFL pundits believe the Denver Broncos will be one of the big teams poised to pursue him.

But could the Broncos even afford Cousins?

Denver is projected to have about $27 million in salary cap space this season, according to OverTheCap.com. That probably wouldn’t be enough to sign Cousins, plus the team has other players that need extensions (like linebacker Shaq Barrett) and other positions that need to be addressed (like right tackle).

Read more:
https://broncoswire.usatoday.com/2018/02/01/how-much-will-it-cost-to-sign-kirk-cousins-nfl-free-agency/

[NightTrainLayne]

Cousins ain't getting $27 million/year.

[Valar Morghulis]

Cousins ain't getting $27 million/year.

What's he getting?

[NightTrainLayne]

What's he getting?

< $27 million/year

[weazel]

< $27 million/year

going out on a limb hey? lol

If Denver wants him they are going to have to outbid more than one other team and one of them is the Jets, where a lot of people think he signs. He made almost that last season, I doubt he wants to go into free agency and sign for less.

[CoachChaz]

AAV may be over 27 mil, but with guaranteed money and back-ending a bunch, the number will be more cap friendly. if the Jets want to outbid everyone and give him 30/year for 5 years...they can have him. Just hope Cousins realizes the team will live in cap hell for awhile. Better win with them NOW.

[weazel]

AAV may be over 27 mil, but with guaranteed money and back-ending a bunch, the number will be more cap friendly. if the Jets want to outbid everyone and give him 30/year for 5 years...they can have him. Just hope Cousins realizes the team will live in cap hell for awhile. Better win with them NOW.

agreed

[wayninja]

Cousins ain't getting $27 million/year.

I actually think you hit it spot on. I'm thinking he'll get right around this figure, maybe slightly less.

[MOtorboat]

The guaranteed money will be >$60.5 million.

[Tned]

AAV may be over 27 mil, but with guaranteed money and back-ending a bunch, the number will be more cap friendly. if the Jets want to outbid everyone and give him 30/year for 5 years...they can have him. Just hope Cousins realizes the team will live in cap hell for awhile. Better win with them NOW.

So, is he going to get more or less than Smith is reported to be getting?

[Tned]

This is what some guy on ESPN that I've never heard of says:




It wouldn't be shocking at all to see Cousins top $90 million over the first three years of his new deal, and he could take home $100 million in meaningful guarantees at signing. A $40 million signing bonus and guaranteed base salaries of $18 million in 2018, $20 million in 2019, and $22 million in 2020 gets Cousins to $100 million in three years. Cousins could sign a five-year, $150 million deal and still have another shot at a lucrative extension or free agency before turning 35.


Nobody is arguing that Cousins is a perfect quarterback, but teams without passers are going to take a risk over the next couple of seasons. Is any passer who is likely to come available a better risk than the guy who is sixth in passer rating and seventh in Total QBR over the past three years? Cousins is about to be the subject of one of the most heated bidding wars in league history.


http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22271779/winners-losers-alex-smith-trade-kansas-city-chiefs-washington-redskins-2018-nfl-offseason

[wayninja]

5yr, 150 Million dollar deal....

So.... who else is available?

[weazel]

Tebow?

[Tned]

5yr, 150 Million dollar deal....

So.... who else is available?

He's not the first to suggest these types of numbers. Now, some feel with a so/so year that his market value might have fallen. I know Frank Schwab during the early part of the season was saying that the NFL has never seen a QB the caliber of Cousins in his prime. At that time, he felt is wasn't out of the realm for Cousins to command 30-32 a year.

Based on those ESPN numbers above, he would average a $28 million cap number his first three years.

So, if right, I'm not saying it isn't doable, but not as easy as some fans seem to think. We are paying a LB QB money, and then to add the highest paid player in NFL history, plus a high draft pick (slightly more than middle of the draft), plus other free agents to fill holes in Oline, possibly ILB (one might be fixed with early pick).

Doable, but Elway will have to jettison talent to do it and mortgage the future. It's a huge gamble.

[wayninja]

Tebow?

Let's get this shit done.

[WARHORSE]

So we guarantee more money for less salary as the rumors are circulating.

Im good with that. Honestly, I think Cousins has yet to play his best.

[ShaneFalco]

Tebow?

SWAG AND TEBOW. i would go to every game next season

[Poet]

I don't mind signing him - and I don't mind a full blown rebuild.

[Hawgdriver]

SWAG AND TEBOW. i would go to every game next season

Have fun sitting alone.

[wayninja]

Oh, we will.

[LawDog]

This is what some guy on ESPN that I've never heard of says:



http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/22271779/winners-losers-alex-smith-trade-kansas-city-chiefs-washington-redskins-2018-nfl-offseason

There is no way Denver will give him $33mil guaranteed AAV over the first three years. Even though the cap hit is only $84mil over those years, they won't do it.

[wayninja]

Elway will get Von to restructure!

[Rick]

Let's get this shit done.

We joined a minor league baseball league? When did that happen? :)

[wayninja]

We joined a minor league baseball league? When did that happen? :)

With VJ and our current roster of QB's (besides sunshine, who coaches overlook), most minor league baseball teams would kick our ass.

[Freyaka]

Elway will get Von to restructure!

As bad as Von wants Cousins here (he's even made his case to Kirk for why he should come her) I actually could see this happening.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I don't mind signing him - and I don't mind a full blown rebuild.

I think it would depend on the rebuild. No Cousins and we draft Rosen or even Darnold, okay rebuild mode. We waste #5 on Allen because we’re still enamored with big armed guys with no accuracy? It’s more than a rebuild, it’s a disaster.

[Broncoknight30]

Any Bronco fan wanting Elway to break the bank on Cousins is not seeing what QBs giant salaries are doing to teams. Even though this SB this year was not exactly about defense, it is still defense that is key. If one QB's salary does not allow a team to field a defense, then it won't matter who the QB is. Ask Brees and his ability to throw for over 5000 yards every year while they had historically bad defenses.

Top 5 defenses as far as PPG this year.

1. Minnesota
2. Jacksonville
3. LA Chargers
4. Philadelphia
5. New England

The top 10 highest paid QBs, none of them have won it AFTER getting paid. Interesting note. In 2010 when the Packers won it and last time Rodgers has even been to a SB, the Packers that year were number 2 in the NFL in defense in PPG. They gave up 15 PPG. For perspective, the Broncos in 2015 gave up 18.5 PPG.

The very next year in the Packers preparing for the massive Rodgers contract that would have to match Brees's $100 million dollar contract, the Packers defense went from #2 in 2010 to #32 in 2011. As I said, the Packers have not been back to the SB, even though they have had arguably the best QB in the NFL.

Since Eli Manning got paid, since Flacco got paid, etc, those teams have been very inconsistent.

This team does not have much to give and you all want them to pay all of that to Cousins who has proved beyond any doubt that he cannot carry a team by himself? BTW, no QB can. Brady is the 17th highest paid QB.

[Northman]

Any Bronco fan wanting Elway to break the bank on Cousins is not seeing what QBs giant salaries are doing to teams. Even though this SB this year was not exactly about defense, it is still defense that is key. If one QB's salary does not allow a team to field a defense, then it won't matter who the QB is. Ask Brees and his ability to throw for over 5000 yards every year while they had historically bad defenses.

Top 5 defenses as far as PPG this year.

1. Minnesota
2. Jacksonville
3. LA Chargers
4. Philadelphia
5. New England

The top 10 highest paid QBs, none of them have won it AFTER getting paid. Interesting note. In 2010 when the Packers won it and last time Rodgers has even been to a SB, the Packers that year were number 2 in the NFL in defense in PPG. They gave up 15 PPG. For perspective, the Broncos in 2015 gave up 18.5 PPG.

The very next year in the Packers preparing for the massive Rodgers contract that would have to match Brees's $100 million dollar contract, the Packers defense went from #2 in 2010 to #32 in 2011. As I said, the Packers have not been back to the SB, even though they have had arguably the best QB in the NFL.

Since Eli Manning got paid, since Flacco got paid, etc, those teams have been very inconsistent.

This team does not have much to give and you all want them to pay all of that to Cousins who has proved beyond any doubt that he cannot carry a team by himself? BTW, no QB can. Brady is the 17th highest paid QB.

Out of curiosity, of the past SB winners where were their offenses ranked? I know Denver's was low because the 2015 was an outlier of a once in a lifetime defense. But im curious where the offenses were ranked for the SB teams that had won in the past 10 years.

[Broncoknight30]

Out of curiosity, of the past SB winners where were their offenses ranked? I know Denver's was low because the 2015 was an outlier of a once in a lifetime defense. But im curious where the offenses were ranked for the SB teams that had won in the past 10 years.

I will look it up later. What I do know is the top 10 most prolific PASSING OFFENSES (yards and TDs) in the history of the NFL, only one won the SB (99 Rams.) Typically, it is an offense that is balanced.

[Northman]

Nevermind, i went and looked it up. Most of the teams that have won have at least had a top 10 offense so that does play a huge part in the success of SB winners.

2017. Philadelphia- 3rd
2016. New England- 2nd
2015. Denver- 16th
2014. Mew Emgland- 11th
2013. Seattle- 18th
2012. Baltimore- 16th
2011. Green Bay- 3rd
2010. New Orleans- 6th
2009. Pittsburgh- 7th
2008. NY Giants- 7th
2007. Indianapolis Colts- 5th

Also, Cousins has proven he can carry a team at least in terms of stats. The last two years he has had NOTHING to work with on offense yet has put up numbers. If you are implying that Foles carried the Eagles to a SB title you would be very wrong. He played a part but he was surrounded by far better talent. I know you want to keep beating this drum about QB's getting paid and then doing nothing (which is false by the way) but then you would be advocating changing QB's every couple of years based on a short term success with the team. You are then saying that Denver should take a scrub QB (which we already have) and then PRAY that they can win a SB on a defense that isnt near as good or ever will be to the 2015 team, and then drop the QB and replace him with another scrub/young QB and again PRAy that the team can repeat its success. I dont know if you have been paying attention the last couple of years because in order to even compete for a SB you have to have a very good to great QB on the roster tp even make the playoffs. Backup and subpar QB's can only get you so far and generally they have success when the team around them is much better and can CARRY them.

[Broncoknight30]

Nevermind, i went and looked it up. Most of the teams that have won have at least had a top 10 offense so that does play a huge part in the success of SB winners.

2017. Philadelphia- 3rd
2016. New England- 2nd
2015. Denver- 16th
2014. Mew Emgland- 11th
2013. Seattle- 18th
2012. Baltimore- 16th
2011. Green Bay- 3rd
2010. New Orleans- 6th
2009. Pittsburgh- 7th
2008. NY Giants- 7th
2007. Indianapolis Colts- 5th

Also, Cousins has proven he can carry a team at least in terms of stats. The last two years he has had NOTHING to work with on offense yet has put up numbers. If you are implying that Foles carried the Eagles to a SB title you would be very wrong. He played a part but he was surrounded by far better talent. I know you want to keep beating this drum about QB's getting paid and then doing nothing (which is false by the way) but then you would be advocating changing QB's every couple of years based on a short term success with the team. You are then saying that Denver should take a scrub QB (which we already have) and then PRAY that they can win a SB on a defense that isnt near as good or ever will be to the 2015 team, and then drop the QB and replace him with another scrub/young QB and again PRAy that the team can repeat its success. I dont know if you have been paying attention the last couple of years because in order to even compete for a SB you have to have a very good to great QB on the roster tp even make the playoffs. Backup and subpar QB's can only get you so far and generally they have success when the team around them is much better and can CARRY them.

Why hasn't Luck been to the SB? According to you, great QBs can carry average talent. I have never actually seen that. Which QB has ever done that? Are there examples? Maybe the Broncos teams of the 80s with Elway. Maybe.

Cousins has done very little to show he can overcome an average defense, which large contracts tend to do to defenses. Rodgers has not been back to a SB since 2010 when their defense is number two in PPG. Not even the best QBs in the NFL can do it. Cousins will be able to do it? No way.

[Shazam!]

With Von's salary I just don't see it happening, and if it did, laying out that kind of money on two players is difficult and the talent overall would be diluted. Going the 1st Rd route hoping to find a talented Starter is just as risky as bringing in Cousins.

[DenBronx]

If Von really wants Cousins here then he should consider renegotiating his contract.

[Northman]

Why hasn't Luck been to the SB? According to you, great QBs can carry average talent. I have never actually seen that. Which QB has ever done that? Are there examples? Maybe the Broncos teams of the 80s with Elway. Maybe.

Cousins has done very little to show he can overcome an average defense, which large contracts tend to do to defenses. Rodgers has not been back to a SB since 2010 when their defense is number two in PPG. Not even the best QBs in the NFL can do it. Cousins will be able to do it? No way.

By the same token, how many great defenses win multiple SBs? The championship ratios are almost the same except that great defenses rarely last. At least with a high caliber Qb your chances are far greater.

[chazoe60]

Why hasn't Luck been to the SB? According to you, great QBs can carry average talent. I have never actually seen that. Which QB has ever done that? Are there examples? Maybe the Broncos teams of the 80s with Elway. Maybe.

Cousins has done very little to show he can overcome an average defense, which large contracts tend to do to defenses. Rodgers has not been back to a SB since 2010 when their defense is number two in PPG. Not even the best QBs in the NFL can do it. Cousins will be able to do it? No way.

Elway and Peyton both did it. The Colts went from winning 10+ division championships to owning the #1 overall pick when Manning went down. Manning always made his teammates look better. Just think about how much better he made O-lines look.

[Tned]

By the same token, how many great defenses win multiple SBs? The championship ratios are almost the same except that great defenses rarely last. At least with a high caliber Qb your chances are far greater.

How many teams, great defenses or otherwise, win multiple super bowls?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

How many teams, great defenses or otherwise, win multiple super bowls?

In the last decade we have the Patriots and the Ravens. The Seahawks have come close.

[weazel]

Any Bronco fan wanting Elway to break the bank on Cousins is not seeing what QBs giant salaries are doing to teams. Even though this SB this year was not exactly about defense, it is still defense that is key. If one QB's salary does not allow a team to field a defense, then it won't matter who the QB is. Ask Brees and his ability to throw for over 5000 yards every year while they had historically bad defenses.

Top 5 defenses as far as PPG this year.

1. Minnesota
2. Jacksonville
3. LA Chargers
4. Philadelphia
5. New England

The top 10 highest paid QBs, none of them have won it AFTER getting paid. Interesting note. In 2010 when the Packers won it and last time Rodgers has even been to a SB, the Packers that year were number 2 in the NFL in defense in PPG. They gave up 15 PPG. For perspective, the Broncos in 2015 gave up 18.5 PPG.

The very next year in the Packers preparing for the massive Rodgers contract that would have to match Brees's $100 million dollar contract, the Packers defense went from #2 in 2010 to #32 in 2011. As I said, the Packers have not been back to the SB, even though they have had arguably the best QB in the NFL.

Since Eli Manning got paid, since Flacco got paid, etc, those teams have been very inconsistent.

This team does not have much to give and you all want them to pay all of that to Cousins who has proved beyond any doubt that he cannot carry a team by himself? BTW, no QB can. Brady is the 17th highest paid QB.

The NFL has skewed the rules so much the defences have no chance, welcome to the CFL 2.0

[NightTerror218]

With Von's salary I just don't see it happening, and if it did, laying out that kind of money on two players is difficult and the talent overall would be diluted. Going the 1st Rd route hoping to find a talented Starter is just as risky as bringing in Cousins.
The thing is a lot of our other big contract players a coming in lto the back end of contracts and extensions can be worked with them to lower cap hits. Miller is not an option for that though. Thomas and Wolfe are options for that though.

[Tned]

In the last decade we have the Patriots and the Ravens. The Seahawks have come close.

Obviously, the Pats are a freak of nature and Seahawks would have won if they gave the ball to Beastie. It's just really rare. The goal needs to get there and win, which is VERY rare. Multiples are insanely rare.

[underrated29]

I think the formula is even easier than that. It is to have a devastating pass rush and a Qb who can lead and sustain drives for points. Look at the chargers. Their team is garbage but that pass rush of theirs is deadly. Same with the Jaguars. Same when we wont it two years ago. Same with the seahawks when they did. Same for the giants against brady...

Have that devastating pass rush, have a good to great QB and have an Oline that can protect and run block and at least 1 good DB and LB or S. We have more than that and less. It is why I want cousins, so we can go Chubb at 5. I want that devastating pass rush again! I do not mind dumping Sanders and some of the others. If we can get Chubb and cousins, then we can work with our FA dollars to get us a G and T and complimentary pieces. We have a lot of draft picks and I am assuming we will be trading Talib and Shaq Barrett (or 2nd rd tender) which will add more firepower to young cheap contracts. If we can knock this draft out of the park we can be right back in the mix. We just need the QB and pass rushers. CHubb is the man!

[MOtorboat]

In the last decade we have the Patriots and the Ravens. The Seahawks have come close.

I'll quibble with this a little. The Patriots won the first Super Bowl with defense, and after that became an innovative and top offensive team. The Ravens won in 2012 not because of defense (although Ray Lewis was the face), but because Joe Flacco played out of his mind for four games.

[Tned]

I'll quibble with this a little. The Patriots won the first Super Bowl with defense, and after that became an innovative and top offensive team. The Ravens won in 2012 not because of defense (although Ray Lewis was the face), but because Joe Flacco played out of his mind for four games.

I think he was responding to my question about how many teams had won multiple times, period, defense or otherwise. My point was that it's extremely rare for teams to win multiple SBs, so the thought that the goal is to build a multi year championship team is rather lofty.

Also, following on you Patriots comment. I think we also have to really look at what we've witnessed in NE and whether any other team will replicate it. They've had a level of dominance, including SB wins/appearances, few other teams have matched in the free agent era. They didn't just go to back to back SBs, which multiple teams have done, but have been back to the SB repeatedly over the last 15 years, not just a 2-3 year good stretch like so many other teams have.

[chazoe60]

After the deal Jimmy G just got I am strongly leaning toward wanting us to draft a guy. Rosen or Mayfield are my hopes.

[Tned]

After the deal Jimmy G just got I am strongly leaning toward wanting us to draft a guy. Rosen or Mayfield are my hopes.

I figure a lot will reach that conclusion. There was this group "hope" that we could sign Cousins for something in the mid 20's or lower (cap wise) and it just was never valid. It's what I've been trying to convey, without being a Debbie downer, which is that it's going to be very hard for the Broncos to sign him.

There are two factors.

First, the Broncos simply don't have enough cap without making deep cuts to it's current roster.
Second, their OLB has a cap number over the next three years in the range of Tom Brady and Carr and higher than many starting QBs.

Having $50 million a year of cap dedicated to the QB and LB, when the Broncos also have a fair amount invested in other players, would be challenging. As pointed out in this thread or others, it would probably take losing Talib, Sanders (or DT) and CJ to do it. I don't mention others, because anyone else we lose, like Watson, will need to be money spent on a replacement.

Arguably, Talib will be replaced by Roby (who we need to sign to an extension) and CJ by Booker/DJ/??. Replacing Sanders in house is more problematic, since we struggled to have a viable third receiver much of the year, so it's not like we have a stud waiting to step into Sander's spot.

That's the problem with raising money to pay for Cousins by cutting players. Those holes have to be filled by other free agents, or roster depth.

[BroncoJoe]

I'm in the camp that doesn't want Cousins. He (IMO) is just not worth that kind of money and would straddle the organization for years of not being able to sign other players.

Get a mid-level guy, draft someone (or hope Kelly is the real deal) and draft BPA / need.

This, of course, is coming from someone with zero GM experience in the NFL realm.

[Tned]

I'm in the camp that doesn't want Cousins. He (IMO) is just not worth that kind of money and would straddle the organization for years of not being able to sign other players.

Get a mid-level guy, draft someone (or hope Kelly is the real deal) and draft BPA / need.

This, of course, is coming from someone with zero GM experience in the NFL realm.

Agreed. I don't see the likely (vs possible) talent upside of the other QBs in his price range.

I think they would be better off signing the best tackle on the market (haven't looked at who's going to be available) and grabbing a QB in the top 5.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I just don't think we can compete financially with the Jets, they have so much cap room the can just keep boosting their offer to something we can't do. Only way we can get him is if the other teams just don't want him.

The other way is if they franchise tag him and we make a trade and work a deal for him. Heard some ideas of trading Talib, Sanders, and a 3rd, but that is getting into Madden territory.

[Buff]

I just don't think we can compete financially with the Jets, they have so much cap room the can just keep boosting their offer to something we can't do. Only way we can get him is if the other teams just don't want him.

The other way is if they franchise tag him and we make a trade and work a deal for him. Heard some ideas of trading Talib, Sanders, and a 3rd, but that is getting into Madden territory.

I think we should take it with a grain of salt because money is always king - but Cousins has specifically said he'd take a little less to go to a winning team. So part of me wonders if Elway offers him a little less and is up front about the fact that he'll make a little less here but will compete for championships (in theory) every year.

Personally - I think Manning + Elway legacies work against us... If all things are equal and I'm Cousins, I'd rather go to the place with lower expectations who hasn't just won a Super Bowl. But who really knows, it's all wild speculation.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I think we should take it with a grain of salt because money is always king - but Cousins has specifically said he'd take a little less to go to a winning team. So part of me wonders if Elway offers him a little less and is up front about the fact that he'll make a little less here but will compete for championships (in theory) every year.

Personally - I think Manning + Elway legacies work against us... If all things are equal and I'm Cousins, I'd rather go to the place with lower expectations who hasn't just won a Super Bowl. But who really knows, it's all wild speculation.

Yea, who really knows. The Jets might look like a better bet than us, they finished off the season strong and we still have VJ. historically, we would be the easy choice, but recently....

[Broncoknight30]

The NFL has skewed the rules so much the defences have no chance, welcome to the CFL 2.0

Yeah, true. Often times and in the last 4 SBs, the games have come down to defensive plays that either sealed it or was the key play of the game.

Pats and the Butler int at the one.
Von Miller strip sack when the game was still in doubt.
The sack on Matt Ryan that pushed Atlanta out FG range.
The strip sack of Brady.

How many SBs were decided on a key defensive play or a defense simply dominating?

Yes, the rules tend to neuter the defenses, but that is really relative.

[dogfish]

Also, Cousins has proven he can carry a team at least in terms of stats. The last two years he has had NOTHING to work with on offense yet has put up numbers. If you are implying that Foles carried the Eagles to a SB title you would be very wrong. He played a part but he was surrounded by far better talent. I know you want to keep beating this drum about QB's getting paid and then doing nothing (which is false by the way) but then you would be advocating changing QB's every couple of years based on a short term success with the team. You are then saying that Denver should take a scrub QB (which we already have) and then PRAY that they can win a SB on a defense that isnt near as good or ever will be to the 2015 team, and then drop the QB and replace him with another scrub/young QB and again PRAy that the team can repeat its success. I dont know if you have been paying attention the last couple of years because in order to even compete for a SB you have to have a very good to great QB on the roster tp even make the playoffs. Backup and subpar QB's can only get you so far and generally they have success when the team around them is much better and can CARRY them.

meh. . . who needs a good quarterback? i for one love the idea of watching tyrod taylor run our offense for the next five years. . . think of all the money we'd save!

[HORSEPOWER 56]

For everyone who is cringing at the money Jimmy G just made and that Cousins will command, just understand that it’s the norm now.

We pay now or pay later, what does it matter? Let’s say we decide that Cousins is too much at 30 mil. Fine. So we sign someone like Tyrod Taylor or Teddy Bridgewater or some other scrub journeyman plug-in for 18-20 mil and draft a guy. Now let’s say we get whoever your favorite QB is in the draft (Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, whoever IDGAF) and that guy turns out to be a damned solid guy who starts in 2019. In 2021 (his 4th year) we will be looking to sign him to a contract extension which, by then, will likely be close to 40 mil a year. Are we gonna say **** it and do what Washington did to Cousins or just pay the money then?

Any way you look at it QBs are retarded expensive and you’re gonna have to pay the piper eventually. There are no more free rides. Pay Cousins now, or pay someone else later (and hope you actually can find a guy worth the $).

[dogfish]

Yea, who really knows. The Jets might look like a better bet than us, they finished off the season strong and we still have VJ. historically, we would be the easy choice, but recently....

we may have had a really bad year with VJ. . . but teams like the jets and browns are working on bad decades. . . in our entire history under mr. B's ownership, we have never stayed down for any length of time. . . have the browns, cards or jets ever really been up? if he honestly wants to win, i truly believe we're the choice-- we've been to more super bowls during kirk's NFL career than the browns and jets have been to in his entire life. . .

[wayninja]

meh. . . who needs a good quarterback? i for one love the idea of watching tyrod taylor run our offense for the next five years. . . think of all the money we'd save!

You can't even put that out into the universe, man

[Poet]

Doggington, you got a minute to discuss your take on how good you think KC is?

[dogfish]

Doggington, you got a minute to discuss your take on how good you think KC is?

i'm doin' about four different things right now. . . what you got?

[dogfish]

ultimately, the bottom line is this. . . there are a number of different ways a one-off team can be built. . . but if you want to be in the mix every year, you pretty much HAVE TO be able to draft and develop well. . . regardless of who your QB is or how much you pay him, good luck putting sufficient talent around him if you aren't able to find guys in the draft who can give you good production on their rookie contracts. . . not to mention the significant fact that you typically have to overpay to land free agents, while you can often keep your own guys on at least slightly more reasonable deals by extending them before they hit the market, when you're not bidding against the whole league. . . even in our one-off year, on a team that was largely cobbled together with high profile FAs like manning, talib and ware, we still don't get it done if we don't have von miller, chris harris, bradley roby, derek wolfe, malik jackson, danny trevathan, demaryius thomas and CJ anderson. . .

it's the main reason i was so disappointed when we elected not to expand or upgrade our smallest in the league front office. . . kirk will eat a metric ton of our cap space if we do get him. . . guys like scot mccloughan and elliot wolf wouldn't have cost a penny against the cap, but they may have saved us a fat chunk of space in the coming years by helping us hit on more useful draft picks. . . oh well, i guess that ship has sailed. . .

[Tned]

For everyone who is cringing at the money Jimmy G just made and that Cousins will command, just understand that it’s the norm now.

We pay now or pay later, what does it matter? Let’s say we decide that Cousins is too much at 30 mil. Fine. So we sign someone like Tyrod Taylor or Teddy Bridgewater or some other scrub journeyman plug-in for 18-20 mil and draft a guy. Now let’s say we get whoever your favorite QB is in the draft (Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, whoever IDGAF) and that guy turns out to be a damned solid guy who starts in 2019. In 2021 (his 4th year) we will be looking to sign him to a contract extension which, by then, will likely be close to 40 mil a year. Are we gonna say **** it and do what Washington did to Cousins or just pay the money then?

Any way you look at it QBs are retarded expensive and you’re gonna have to pay the piper eventually. There are no more free rides. Pay Cousins now, or pay someone else later (and hope you actually can find a guy worth the $).

The drafted QB would be locked up for five years before needing to be resigned. With franchise tag, he could be resigned in his fifth year to an extension or risk it and franchise if necessary.

The question is Cousins the best player in the NFL? Can you even saw with confidence that he's a top five QB? Top ten? Top fifteen?

More important, are the Broncos a QB away from being in the SB? If Cousins was on the team last year, were the Broncos a SB team?

[HORSEPOWER 56]

The drafted QB would be locked up for five years before needing to be resigned. With franchise tag, he could be resigned in his fifth year to an extension or risk it and franchise if necessary.

The question is Cousins the best player in the NFL? Can you even saw with confidence that he's a top five QB? Top ten? Top fifteen?

More important, are the Broncos a QB away from being in the SB? If Cousins was on the team last year, were the Broncos a SB team?

You never let players get into that final year or you get ****** like we did with Von Miller and DT. Letting guys’ contracts expire or tagging them, especially if you know you want to keep them is just bad business and typically ends up costing you way more than just signing them a year early. The Seahawks re-signed Wilson before it became an issue and it was a non event for them. If you’re smart you lock up your top players before they set the “highest paid player at their position” bar.

Are the Broncos a Super Bowl team with Tyrod Taylor and a rookie QB? What happens if we spend the #5 on a QB and he busts? Back to the drawing board again? Having a “franchise” QB is essential nowadays. If you don’t have one, you spend all your time trying to acquire one instead of trying to win Championships.

My question is, would Tom Brady's numbers be any better than Cousins’ if he played in Washington? How about Brees or Roethlisberger? I really doubt it. Pick a “top 5” QB and tell me they’d have better numbers or more wins in Washington.

[Tned]

You never let players get into that final year or you get ****** like we did with Von Miller and DT. Letting guys’ contracts expire or tagging them, especially if you know you want to keep them is just bad business and typically ends up costing you way more than just signing them a year early. The Seahawks re-signed Wilson before it became an issue and it was a non event for them. If you’re smart you lock up your top players before they set the “highest paid player at their position” bar.

Again, even if that's the case, there will be a fifth year option on him, so he's under contract for five years and he can be extended between his fourth and fifth year.

Bottom line, saying that the reason to sign Cousins to $30 million a year now, is that if we draft a QB we will pay him $40 million in 5 years doesn't make sense. Isn't that exactly what the Broncos will have to do with Cousins anyway?

Both Cousins and the rookie, will both be set to be extended between the 2021 and 2022 season, or will be come free agents and have to be tagged in 2023.

The difference is that Cousins will make it very, very hard for the team to fix the other problems, like the line they need to repair to protect their $30 million QB.

[ShaneFalco]

30m is too much cap in one player

[Northman]

meh. . . who needs a good quarterback? i for one love the idea of watching tyrod taylor run our offense for the next five years. . . think of all the money we'd save!

Yea, i know.

Sometimes people are very short sighted with stuff like this. If people think guys like G and Cousins are expensive now, just wait until Goff and Wentz go to redo their contracts. The price for a decent starting QB is going to continue to go up, thats the market and way it has been playing out for the last few years. My fear is Denver will draft someone who wont be even Cousins good yet will end up paying a shit ton of money anyway and we will continue to be stuck in mediocrity.

[Northman]

for everyone who is cringing at the money jimmy g just made and that cousins will command, just understand that it’s the norm now.

We pay now or pay later, what does it matter? Let’s say we decide that cousins is too much at 30 mil. Fine. So we sign someone like tyrod taylor or teddy bridgewater or some other scrub journeyman plug-in for 18-20 mil and draft a guy. Now let’s say we get whoever your favorite qb is in the draft (rosen, darnold, mayfield, whoever idgaf) and that guy turns out to be a damned solid guy who starts in 2019. In 2021 (his 4th year) we will be looking to sign him to a contract extension which, by then, will likely be close to 40 mil a year. Are we gonna say **** it and do what washington did to cousins or just pay the money then?

Any way you look at it qbs are retarded expensive and you’re gonna have to pay the piper eventually. There are no more free rides. Pay cousins now, or pay someone else later (and hope you actually can find a guy worth the $).

boom.

[Shazam!]

for everyone who is cringing at the money jimmy g just made and that cousins will command, just understand that it’s the norm now.

We pay now or pay later, what does it matter? Let’s say we decide that cousins is too much at 30 mil. Fine. So we sign someone like tyrod taylor or teddy bridgewater or some other scrub journeyman plug-in for 18-20 mil and draft a guy. Now let’s say we get whoever your favorite qb is in the draft (rosen, darnold, mayfield, whoever idgaf) and that guy turns out to be a damned solid guy who starts in 2019. In 2021 (his 4th year) we will be looking to sign him to a contract extension which, by then, will likely be close to 40 mil a year. Are we gonna say **** it and do what washington did to cousins or just pay the money then?

Any way you look at it qbs are retarded expensive and you’re gonna have to pay the piper eventually. There are no more free rides. Pay cousins now, or pay someone else later (and hope you actually can find a guy worth the $).

boom.

Should the Broncos go all in with a young QB, by the time he is ready to renew, Vons salary will not be a problem by then.

I think this is the way to go, bring in the New guy, unless somehow Chad Kelly is He-Man.

[Tned]

boom.

More like bust.

Two reasons.

First, in five years the cap will be higher. Second, in five years Cousins will have to be renewed for those big dollars mentioned, just like a rookie if he turns out to be worth renewing.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Again, even if that's the case, there will be a fifth year option on him, so he's under contract for five years and he can be extended between his fourth and fifth year.

Bottom line, saying that the reason to sign Cousins to $30 million a year now, is that if we draft a QB we will pay him $40 million in 5 years doesn't make sense. Isn't that exactly what the Broncos will have to do with Cousins anyway?

Both Cousins and the rookie, will both be set to be extended between the 2021 and 2022 season, or will be come free agents and have to be tagged in 2023.

The difference is that Cousins will make it very, very hard for the team to fix the other problems, like the line they need to repair to protect their $30 million QB.

The only reasons Cousins will make it hard to “fix” the other problems is because we’re paying Von (whom I love) too much money because we waited until after his Super Bowl MVP season to try to get a deal done. That’s our fault. The market for Cousins and now any other QB worthy of long term investment (see also Stafford, Matthew; Smith, Alex; and Garoppolo, Jimmy) is north of 25 mil per year. I’d be surprised not to see guys like Taylor, Bridgewater, Keenum, etc not getting at least 20. That’s stupid money for what you get.

You know how we “fix” the team? Stop signing the Donald Stephensons and Menelik Watsons of the world. Draft well, for once. Cousins allows us to go BPA in the draft. That’s awesome. He will, guaranteed, also make our Oline seem better with the same dudes just because he has pocket awareness and a quick release. Our Oline isn’t good, but the 3 clowns we have at QB make them look worse than they are.

[Tned]

The only reasons Cousins will make it hard to “fix” the other problems is because we’re paying Von (whom I love) too much money because we waited until after his Super Bowl MVP season to try to get a deal done. That’s our fault. The market for Cousins and now any other QB worthy of long term investment (see also Stafford, Matthew; Smith, Alex; and Garoppolo, Jimmy) is north of 25 mil per year. I’d be surprised not to see guys like Taylor, Bridgewater, Keenum, etc not getting at least 20. That’s stupid money for what you get.

You know how we “fix” the team? Stop signing the Donald Stephensons and Menelik Watsons of the world. Draft well, for once. Cousins allows us to go BPA in the draft. That’s awesome. He will, guaranteed, also make our Oline seem better with the same dudes just because he has pocket awareness and a quick release. Our Oline isn’t good, but the 3 clowns we have at QB make them look worse than they are.

Sometimes it's easier said than done. Just like the people that claimed if Malik had been signed earlier, he would have taken Wolfe money, even though it was later reported the Broncos tried and Jackson wanted big bucks. Miller wanted big bucks and while the SB may have driven up his numbers a tad, he's not like he was a so/so player like Pot roast that simply had a few good games in the playoffs. Miller was considered one of the, or the, best rusher in the game prior to the SB.

Regardless, we are where we are. It makes no sense to pretend we aren't playing Miller like a QB and now the highest paid QB in NFL history and then just ignore all the other holes.

Cousins isn't Manning. We can all see now how Manning made that line look better than it was, and it's worse now, but to think Cousins can do the same is probably wishful thinking.

[Freyaka]

You never let players get into that final year or you get ****** like we did with Von Miller and DT. Letting guys’ contracts expire or tagging them, especially if you know you want to keep them is just bad business and typically ends up costing you way more than just signing them a year early. The Seahawks re-signed Wilson before it became an issue and it was a non event for them. If you’re smart you lock up your top players before they set the “highest paid player at their position” bar.

Are the Broncos a Super Bowl team with Tyrod Taylor and a rookie QB? What happens if we spend the #5 on a QB and he busts? Back to the drawing board again? Having a “franchise” QB is essential nowadays. If you don’t have one, you spend all your time trying to acquire one instead of trying to win Championships.

My question is, would Tom Brady's numbers be any better than Cousins’ if he played in Washington? How about Brees or Roethlisberger? I really doubt it. Pick a “top 5” QB and tell me they’d have better numbers or more wins in Washington.

Horse is just putting on a masterclass on how to kill it in a thread.

[Tned]

Horse is just putting on a masterclass on how to kill it in a thread.

The problem is that while "killing it" he hasn't talked about how he's going to fix the other holes after we spend $30+ million on cap space on Cousins next year and $7 million on rookies. So, we have to cut/trade Talib just to cover Cousins and rookies, and then have no money for our or any other free agents, or those "early" extensions he talks about, like Roby for instance, who we will want to keep if we toss Talib.

It's a team, not one position. Can you, or he, or anyone, really make the case that last year if we cut Talib, but added Cousins, the Broncos would have been a Super Bowl contender? Is that the case being made?

How about also cutting CJ and Sanders to actually pay rookies. Does making those subtractions plus adding Cousins win the SB next year?

[weazel]

Yea, i know.

Sometimes people are very short sighted with stuff like this. If people think guys like G and Cousins are expensive now, just wait until Goff and Wentz go to redo their contracts. The price for a decent starting QB is going to continue to go up, thats the market and way it has been playing out for the last few years. My fear is Denver will draft someone who wont be even Cousins good yet will end up paying a shit ton of money anyway and we will continue to be stuck in mediocrity.

People are fine with a 20 mil cap on a linebacker but scoff at a QB getting 30... it's quite laughable

[Poet]

You might have to add Cousins, take the increased productivity of the remaining players, and let the team recoup over time.

If we cut CJA, whom I love and would be saddened if he left, we would still have some depth at RB. If we cut Sanders, we don't have that depth. If we cut Talib, whom I love and would be saddened if he left, we have other corners and we are good at 'finding guys' at that position.

But, what do those guys do for us if we draft a rookie QB and start him? Those guys are still good or even great players, but it's hard to win with a rookie QB, and we can't expect our defense to carry the load.

Hypothetically, which gets us to SB contending faster - KC and two years of bleh or a rookie QB (assume he pans out for sake of argument and then assume he's solid but not great) and which is more likely?

These are brutal questions.

[Cugel]

More like bust.

Two reasons.

First, in five years the cap will be higher. Second, in five years Cousins will have to be renewed for those big dollars mentioned, just like a rookie if he turns out to be worth renewing.

In 5 years Cousins will be 36 years old. He will not be getting a huge new market setting contract extension at 36.

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by horsepower 56 View Post
for everyone who is cringing at the money jimmy g just made and that cousins will command, just understand that it’s the norm now.

We pay now or pay later, what does it matter? Let’s say we decide that cousins is too much at 30 mil. Fine. So we sign someone like tyrod taylor or teddy bridgewater or some other scrub journeyman plug-in for 18-20 mil and draft a guy. Now let’s say we get whoever your favorite qb is in the draft (rosen, darnold, mayfield, whoever idgaf) and that guy turns out to be a damned solid guy who starts in 2019. In 2021 (his 4th year) we will be looking to sign him to a contract extension which, by then, will likely be close to 40 mil a year. Are we gonna say **** it and do what washington did to cousins or just pay the money then?

Any way you look at it qbs are retarded expensive and you’re gonna have to pay the piper eventually. There are no more free rides. Pay cousins now, or pay someone else later (and hope you actually can find a guy worth the $).

Obviously Horsepower is right.

Here are the options:

#1 - Pay Kirk Cousins. Bidding will now start at $31m a year, and go up from there.

#2 - Draft Josh Allen or Baker Mayfield, or God knows. Suck for 2 years while the rookie learns. In the meantime, fire Vance Joseph, because there is no way he survives another 2 losing seasons. Start over with a new coaching staff. Meanwhile you lose whatever remains of your SB defense. Von Miller for instance will be 31 years old by the 2020 season when your rookie is ready (hopefully!) to lead you deep in the playoffs. Derek Wolfe, Darien Stewart, etc., etc. many more SB players may leave in the next 2 seasons.

# 3 - Find another lower priced QB and pretend that AJ McCarron, or Sam Bradford, or Case Keenum or whichever other FA QB is left on the market is going to lead you to a Championship. Watch for 2 seasons while this does not happen. Then go back into the top 5 of the draft in 2020 and repeat #2: draft another QB. Suck for 2 more seasons until said QB is ready to win playoff games sometime around 2022 (maybe).

What all the fans want is Door #4 where these problems are magically fixed and the Broncos "just get 'er done" and find a cheap QB who will lead the team to the SB. Problem is: there is NO Door #4.

It makes zero difference if Cousins is "worth" $31m a year. I've said for months that this is exactly what the market will do. It will go up, way past what YOU think is "reasonable." It's called the LAW of supply and demand for a reason you know. Because it's a basic LAW of economics that price is determined by demand, not by some intrinsic "value" of anything.

You can either pay market price or sit there for a couple more losing seasons with Tyrod Taylor or AJ McCarron or someone they can afford. Or you can draft a rookie at #5 and hope and pray they get it right this time and that the guy will NOT turn out to be one of the 50% or so of 1st round QBs who are busts. :coffee:

[Slick]

Re: Von Miller

Why would he have signed for less money earlier? I'm sure Von's agent was telling Von to let Justin Houston sign his deal, then we ask for more than him because you're better.

[Tned]

In 5 years Cousins will be 36 years old. He will not be getting a huge new market setting contract extension at 36.

35, or 34, depending on when the extension is done, and if he's a QB worth that money now and doesn't suffer an injury, he will get a big extension, even if it's only a 3-4 year big deal.

However, if your case is that he's washed up at 35, then it's even worse, because then we will be looking for another QB in the free agent market when they are super expensive.

Bottom line, it's silly to make a case for spending big money now, that it will prevent needing to resign a rookie to even bigger money in five years, after both the rookie and cousins contracts will be up.

[Tned]

Re: Von Miller

Why would he have signed for less money earlier? I'm sure Von's agent was telling Von to let Justin Houston sign his deal, then we ask for more than him because you're better.

Exactly.

It's the standard thing people say, "Elway (replace with whoever) screwed up. They could have gotten Von (replace with whoever) if they signed him earlier." That precludes the fact that Von and his agent know he's considered the best or second best defensive player in the league and somehow would have been lulled into a 20 or 35% discount or something by signing the extension a year early. Look at some of the recent big name extensions, like Stafford, signed with a year left, they don't come with major discounts.

[dogfish]

i don't believe that von would have taken a discount-- superstars typically don't. . . that doesn't mean it's an ineffective strategy, though-- both derek wolfe and chris harris signed significantly below market extensions to stay here. . . it's not at all uncommon for a guy to be willing to take a bit less in exchange for the security that comes with signing a deal a year or two sooner, as that takes the injury risk away from the athlete. . .

[Tned]

i don't believe that von would have taken a discount-- superstars typically don't. . . that doesn't mean it's an ineffective strategy, though-- both derek wolfe and chris harris signed significantly below market extensions to stay here. . . it's not at all uncommon for a guy to be willing to take a bit less in exchange for the security that comes with signing a deal a year or two sooner, as that takes the injury risk away from the athlete. . .

I don't think the Broncos have typically done more than a year early over the years, but absolutely, there is often some discount given for that security, but the deeper discounts are typically the Wolfe/Harris type players that don't have the absolute confidence of what their FA market is as well. Von, Stafford, etc. are not the type of guys that doubt their worth. They know that the longer they wait, and others sign deals, the bigger their contracts are. So, while they would want the financial security against injury, they aren't going to sign so far below market that, Von for instance, would have had a $15 million cap number vs. $21 million.

[Cugel]

Re: Von Miller

Why would he have signed for less money earlier? I'm sure Von's agent was telling Von to let Justin Houston sign his deal, then we ask for more than him because you're better.

Von stated publicly since then that he would have signed a year earlier. A year earlier his price tag was around $16m a year. He, like every player wants security and guaranteed money. If he blew out his knee like Teddy Bridgewater, right before entering FA, then his price would plummet.

It was a terrible risk that Kirk Cousins ran in taking the franchise contract for 2 years in a row. Normally players aren't willing to take that risk.

Mark Schelerth spent about 10 minutes talking about this on 104.3 the Fan, this AM. The only way for teams to successfully navigate the salary cap is to identify players they want to keep in FA and lock them up 1 year early, BEFORE they hit FA and maximize their market value.

And players will normally take such deals because:

1. They protect themselves against a declining market value due to injury or other unforeseen circumstances.

2. They get their money a year early, which means they can invest and spend it a year earlier. You can make a lot of money just from investing a $10m plus signing bonus for 1 year and it's nice to have more money now, rather than later.

[Freyaka]

Von stated publicly since then that he would have signed a year earlier. A year earlier his price tag was around $16m a year. He, like every player wants security and guaranteed money. If he blew out his knee like Teddy Bridgewater, right before entering FA, then his price would plummet.

It was a terrible risk that Kirk Cousins ran in taking the franchise contract for 2 years in a row. Normally players aren't willing to take that risk.

Mark Schelerth spent about 10 minutes talking about this on 104.3 the Fan, this AM. The only way for teams to successfully navigate the salary cap is to identify players they want to keep in FA and lock them up 1 year early, BEFORE they hit FA and maximize their market value.

And players will normally take such deals because:

1. They protect themselves against a declining market value due to injury or other unforeseen circumstances.

2. They get their money a year early, which means they can invest and spend it a year earlier. You can make a lot of money just from investing a $10m plus signing bonus for 1 year and it's nice to have more money now, rather than later.

Yup, that's been something we've refused to do even before Elway. Back when Pat was still involved, he used to be a firm believer in you signed a contract, you play it out and we'll negotiate when your contract is up.

That's not the smartest way to handle it and we've lost guys like Malik Jackson because of it and are currently paying a lot for Von thanks to that mindset.

[Cugel]

Mark Schlereth (http://1043thefan.com/category/podcast_player/?a=10016721&sid=1149&n=Schlereth+and+Evans): "These events just show how important the management of your cap is, and how important it is to target guys and pay them early as opposed to paying them oodles of money later. And that is exactly why you need to do. Now you're competing with teams that have a lot more room from a cap standpoint. . . . And I say over and over again, that you can't think of it as setting the market. You have to think about it as "you're beating the market to it, and eventually someone is going to come in and trump that, and there's going to be Aaron Rogers and Matt Ryan comes in behind that [and gets even more $] and you're paying what the market says QBs are worth these days."

[Cugel]

Yup, that's been something we've refused to do even before Elway. Back when Pat was still involved, he used to be a firm believer in you signed a contract, you play it out and we'll negotiate when your contract is up.

That's not the smartest way to handle it and we've lost guys like Malik Jackson because of it and are currently paying a lot for Von thanks to that mindset.

They lost Malik Jackson and Danny Trevathan too. They gave a low round tender on CJ Anderson's contract, only to suddenly realize "whoa! We totally misjudged what the market would be for him! The Dolphins are offering him $4m a year, and now we have to match if we want to keep him!"

They lost Brock Osweiler too, although that turned out to be a lucky break. But, if Osweiler had turned out to be a franchise QB in Texas the way both they and the Broncos thought he would, letting him hit FA and let the market dictate what his contract would be worth would have turned out to be a total disaster! We'd be potentially watching the Texans gloat at how stupid Elway was for letting his franchise QB get away and watching Osweiler lead them to the AFC Championship or something.

Well, fortunately that didn't happen, but it wasn't due to some brilliance on Elway's part, because he was willing to offer Osweiler $16m a year, just not $18m. Had they locked him up a year earlier they would have had him under contract for 2016 in Denver.

Elway gets zero credit for screwing that up royally, and winding having to desperately draft Paxton Lynch to be Brock's replacement, and not only using their first round pick to do it, they also gave up a 3rd rounder to move up in the draft to get ahead of Dallas and take Lynch.

So, everything stemmed from having to desperately find a QB because your "plan" for the post-Manning era just blew up in your face due to lack of foresight. Instead of drafting Russell Wilson ("Brock is tall!") they draft Osweiler, only to have him walk out the door because they failed to make sure he was under contract for when Peyton retired.

In short, they always keep waiting too long and let the market dictate events rather than taking control and managing their cap properly.

Now they don't have the cap room they need for Kirk Cousins (possibly) because Von Miller and DT and Sanders, and CJ Anderson, and a bunch of other players got deals at the top of the market. Now they have to release Aqib because they can't pay him and sign a veteran FA QB (apparently that's part of the reason they are moving on from him).

As Schlereth argues: "this is all due to your mismanaging your cap, and not identifying and grooming [young] players."

[Krugan]

So much speculation in this thread.

Lets assume they did sign von a year earlier, do we all honestly believe his deal would be for some substantial amount less?

Maybe 2 to 3 mil less a year? Is that going to give this team what it needs to sign captain gonna get overpayed?

Nope, doesnt fix it, there still is only so much cap, and you have to decide where you want to spend it, star here or star there, over pay here or there.

Vons contract is huge becuase he makes a difference, thats the cost of those kind of players, 1 year early wasnt going to change that.

[Broncoknight30]

The hard cap in the NFL sucks. Are you all seeing why yet? Hint: There is really so such thing as building for "the future." In a hard cap league, it is a myth.

Every year is its own season. Really no such thing as "developing talent" etc.

Take a look at it.

[weazel]

The hard cap in the NFL sucks. Are you all seeing why yet? Hint: There is really so such thing as building for "the future." In a hard cap league, it is a myth.

Every year is its own season. Really no such thing as "developing talent" etc.

Take a look at it.

at least you can release guys and the rest of the contract is void in the NFL, you release a guy in NHL the contract is still on the books forever. Hard caps suck, I think if an owner wants to spend money on his business he should be able to spend whatever he wants.

[Broncoknight30]

at least you can release guys and the rest of the contract is void in the NFL, you release a guy in NHL the contract is still on the books forever. Hard caps suck, I think if an owner wants to spend money on his business he should be able to spend whatever he wants.

Personally I want the system to motivate players to either stay with the team that drafted him, or developed him. For example, if a player has played 7 consecutive seasons with certain team his salary starting from his 8th season does not count against a cap. Some kind of tweak to it.

[Poet]

The hard cap stops you from watching Dallas field Aaron Rodgers, Antonio Brown, David Johnson, Von Miller, Aaron Donald, Patrick Peterson, Kuechly, Julio Jones, Earl Thomas, Gronk, etc. all on one team.

Although, to your point, baseball, which doesn't have a hard cap, has more parity than the NFL.

[Broncoknight30]

The hard cap stops you from watching Dallas field Aaron Rodgers, Antonio Brown, David Johnson, Von Miller, Aaron Donald, Patrick Peterson, Kuechly, Julio Jones, Earl Thomas, Gronk, etc. all on one team.

Although, to your point, baseball, which doesn't have a hard cap, has more parity than the NFL.

You are talking about NO CAP. I am referring to a system that motivates players to stay with the team that drafted him or developed him. Which is different than no cap. The system right now makes the NFL draft pretty pointless.

[Poet]

The draft is far from pointless. We're not really disagreeing with one another. Every single post of yours comes off as confrontational. Good god, your blood pressure must be awful. Laugh a little.

[Rick]

The lack of a hard cap is baseball, I absolutely DO NOT want that.

NFL cap system is just fine.

[Rick]

The draft is far from pointless, the draft is how a good scouting team can afford to put together a great team.

[weazel]

Personally I want the system to motivate players to either stay with the team that drafted him, or developed him. For example, if a player has played 7 consecutive seasons with certain team his salary starting from his 8th season does not count against a cap. Some kind of tweak to it.

The NBA has a system in place for this.

The draft isn't pointless but the cap does kind of penalise teams that draft well

[Traveler]

Doable, but Elway will have to jettison talent to do it and mortgage the future. It's a huge gamble.

I'm still advocating a complete rebuild offensively. Makes no sense to spend that kind of money on Cousins. He is not an elite QB. Just use draft capital and get the rookie QB they like best and begin the rebuilding around him.

[BroncoJoe]

I'm still advocating a complete rebuild offensively. Makes no sense to spend that kind of money on Cousins. He is not an elite QB. Just use draft capital and get the rookie QB they like best and begin the rebuilding around him.

Preach, Brother!

[Broncoknight30]

The NBA has a system in place for this.

The draft isn't pointless but the cap does kind of penalise teams that draft well

Yeah, its frustrating. If the Broncos draft and or develop players, they would be lucky to keep them 4 or 5 years later. Especially, if those players are good. That is the reality and there is plenty of evidence of that happening.

Now, the Broncos defense from 2015 will virtually all be gone. One of them due to retirement and the rest because of the hard cap reality.

[wayninja]

Yeah, its frustrating. If the Broncos draft and or develop players, they would be lucky to keep them 4 or 5 years later. Especially, if those players are good. That is the reality and there is plenty of evidence of that happening.

Now, the Broncos defense from 2015 will virtually all be gone. One of them due to retirement and the rest because of the hard cap reality.

This is one of the reasons why system is so important though and the reasons why teams like the patriots can stay dominant for so long. Being able to plug unknowns in and get good production out of them is critical.

Let's just say I don't have the highest confidence in VJ as a good system guy.

[Broncoknight30]

This is one of the reasons why system is so important though and the reasons why teams like the patriots can stay dominant for so long. Being able to plug unknowns in and get good production out of them is critical.

Let's just say I don't have the highest confidence in VJ as a good system guy.

They are the only real exception due to one basic reason. Tom Brady is the 17th highest paid QB. They get the best production from the most crucial poaition for minimal price. Brock Osweiler gets more than him.

A few years ago, he decided he would take that.....pay cut. In 2014, they finally won it after 10 years. Ironically they had tbeir best defensive season in a few years.

In 2016 they won it again and they were number 1 in defense as far as PPG. This year, as bad as people think their defense was, they actually finished 5th, giving up 18.5, which was what the Broncos defense gave up in 2015.

Yeah, they are able to plug in key guys, all while having that top PRODUCTION....for middle of the road price.

[wayninja]

They are the only real exception due to one basic reason. Tom Brady is the 17th highest paid QB. They get the best production from the most crucial poaition for minimal price. Brock Osweiler gets more than him.

A few years ago, he decided he would take that.....pay cut. In 2014, they finally won it after 10 years. Ironically they had tbeir best defensive season in a few years.

In 2016 they won it again and they were number 1 in defense as far as PPG. This year, as bad as people think their defense was, they actually finished 5th, giving up 18.5, which was what the Broncos defense gave up in 2015.

Yeah, they are able to plug in key guys, all while having that top PRODUCTION....for middle of the road price.

I'm certainly not trying to downplay Tom Brady's skills, but they got really good production out of Jimmy G too. That team is more than the sum of its parts.

How many guys have we seen come out of new england putting up really good numbers only to go somewhere else and fall off hard?

[Poet]

Yeah, its frustrating. If the Broncos draft and or develop players, they would be lucky to keep them 4 or 5 years later. Especially, if those players are good. That is the reality and there is plenty of evidence of that happening.

Now, the Broncos defense from 2015 will virtually all be gone. One of them due to retirement and the rest because of the hard cap reality.

No, not lucky. Some consistently strong teams have consistently strong rosters. The trick is to let some of them go and some of them stay. And sometimes you have to draft well consecutively. So what? The Chargers were great drafters for a long time. The Bengals drafted very well for five or so straight years, etc. You're essentially lamenting the fact that you can't draft well and keep a team together forever. No one wants the 70's again. And don't forget that the FA can help keep a team strong, too. The Patriots needed guys like Gilmore, Revis, etc from time to time. The Broncos BUILT a great defense in FA. So we can't really say it's a bummer that guys are leaving for cap reasons, either. That's how Ware got here. That's how we got Ward and Talib. Don't forget that Talib replaced another FA CB in Cromartie, too. We signed PFM in FA. And Welker. And ES.

There's no perfect system.

[Broncoknight30]

I'm certainly not trying to downplay Tom Brady's skills, but they got really good production out of Jimmy G too. That team is more than the sum of its parts.

How many guys have we seen come out of new england putting up really good numbers only to go somewhere else and fall off hard?

True, but I tend to see SEVERAL key defensive players, being equal in price to ONE high priced QB. I still firmly believe defense is the key, and even more important to an championship than one great QB. How often have we seen great QBs during great statistical seasons come up short? Dates back to Air Coryel days with Fouts when they always had average defenses. Those Marino teams also. Hell, in recent years Drew Brees in his best statistical seasons could not even make the play offs with his historically bad defenses.

We have never actually seen a QB lead a team to a Lombadri all by himself. However, we have seen defenses carry teams with bad QBs. Denver in 50 was a real prime example of that.

I think Bradys contract allowed the Pats to solidify a rather less than stellar defense between those years from 2004 to 2014.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

No, not lucky. Some consistently strong teams have consistently strong rosters. The trick is to let some of them go and some of them stay. And sometimes you have to draft well consecutively. So what? The Chargers were great drafters for a long time. The Bengals drafted very well for five or so straight years, etc. You're essentially lamenting the fact that you can't draft well and keep a team together forever. No one wants the 70's again. And don't forget that the FA can help keep a team strong, too. The Patriots needed guys like Gilmore, Revis, etc from time to time. The Broncos BUILT a great defense in FA. So we can't really say it's a bummer that guys are leaving for cap reasons, either. That's how Ware got here. That's how we got Ward and Talib. Don't forget that Talib replaced another FA CB in Cromartie, too. We signed PFM in FA. And Welker. And ES.

There's no perfect system.

Let’s not forget the best drafting team in the last decade... Pittsburgh. Good lord, with the exception of DB, those guys draft all stars in every damned round it seems like. All of their stars were drafted. Big Ben, Brown, Bell, Smith-Schuster, Villanueva, Pouncey, Dicastro, Hayward, Watt, Bryant, Shazier, etc, etc. All drafted. There’s a reason they are one of the top teams in the AFC and it has nothing to do with their mouth breathing coach (I think Tomlin is as dumb as a box of rocks and is the most overrated HC in the league). I think the Steelers win in spite of him.

[dogfish]

at least you can release guys and the rest of the contract is void in the NFL, you release a guy in NHL the contract is still on the books forever. Hard caps suck, I think if an owner wants to spend money on his business he should be able to spend whatever he wants.

hard cap is the only way to go. . . look at the NBA's soft cap-- it lets golden state have like half the stars in the league. . . it's completely worthless, it does nothing to create parity. . . it's so bendable, they may as well not even have a cap. . . the NFL is far from perfect, but it's still the best sport, and that's not by accident. . . viva la hard cap! the only fanbases complaining about it are those whose teams don't draft well, which would obviously include us. . . that doesn't mean i would ever want the league to get rid of the cap, though-- i just want the damn broncos to draft better. . . as kingsley pointed out, you guys would be just as bitter about us not having talent if jerry jones and dan snyder were just buying all of it. . . don't kid yourselves. . . like it or not, the donkeys don't have a deep pockets ownership group. . . y'all should be thankful for the hard cap, which at least allows us to keep guys like von miller, chris harris and derek wolfe. . .

[dogfish]

Let’s not forget the best drafting team in the last decade... Pittsburgh. Good lord, with the exception of DB, those guys draft all stars in every damned round it seems like. All of their stars were drafted. Big Ben, Brown, Bell, Smith-Schuster, Villanueva, Pouncey, Dicastro, Hayward, Watt, Bryant, Shazier, etc, etc. All drafted. There’s a reason they are one of the top teams in the AFC and it has nothing to do with their mouth breathing coach (I think Tomlin is as dumb as a box of rocks and is the most overrated HC in the league). I think the Steelers win in spite of him.

it REALLY helps them that they run the same scheme, with the same coaches, every single season. . . year after year. . . they never have to jettison prospects who no longer fit the scheme because they changed coaches, and every year they know exactly what they're looking for-- makes it so much easier to find. . . just another reason why making such an asinine coaching hire really kills us. . .

[Poet]

Also keep in mind that the NBA example Fish gave is susceptible to abuse - the cap went up a chunk in the same year that Durant became a free agent, and the rule that they thought would let teams keep their guys let Durant bounce.

Granted, he took less money twice, but make no mistake, unintended consequences set this all up.

Teams that draft well watch their players leave all the time. Teams that don't draft well get leveraged up the nose by the few great players they do have, and sometimes they can't even keep them.

Drafting well is the only reliable way you can make a team. Nine out of ten times a team that goes the FA route implodes. Remember Philly's dream team? Or the Skins signing half the names in the FA class of the 2005-2006 season? The Broncos defense that Elway built was the exception, not the rule.

[Poet]

True, but I tend to see SEVERAL key defensive players, being equal in price to ONE high priced QB. I still firmly believe defense is the key, and even more important to an championship than one great QB. How often have we seen great QBs during great statistical seasons come up short? Dates back to Air Coryel days with Fouts when they always had average defenses. Those Marino teams also. Hell, in recent years Drew Brees in his best statistical seasons could not even make the play offs with his historically bad defenses.

We have never actually seen a QB lead a team to a Lombadri all by himself. However, we have seen defenses carry teams with bad QBs. Denver in 50 was a real prime example of that.

I think Bradys contract allowed the Pats to solidify a rather less than stellar defense between those years from 2004 to 2014.

Defense wins for a few years tops. QB's win regardless. How many all-time great defenses have multiple rings?

If you get a long term QB eventually the cap numbers even out and you can spend money on a defense. Or, if the situation dictates it, you just go even harder on offensive players. We've seen multiple teams do both.

[Broncoknight30]

Defense wins for a few years tops. QB's win regardless. How many all-time great defenses have multiple rings?

If you get a long term QB eventually the cap numbers even out and you can spend money on a defense. Or, if the situation dictates it, you just go even harder on offensive players. We've seen multiple teams do both.

Would love to something consistent at QB. It is difficult watching the Broncos on offense and pathetic QB play, dating from the 2nd half of the 2014 season until now.

That could also be true in regards to the QB in regards to a ling term contract, etc, but dont forget those other hyped positions like WR.

Now, for me the biggest reason the 49ers won 5 SBs from 1981 to 1994 werentheir defenses. Oh, I know Montana and that west coast offenses were great, but those defenses were just as dynamic. The 49ers in their first SB made the greatest goal line stance you would ever see. They won by 5. Their 4 pro bowl DBs and dynamic pass rush shut down Marino in that SB. To me, without those defenses, I dont know if they get those rings.

That goes for Steel Curtain of the 70s along with those first 3 SBs of the Pats where they shut down the greatest show on turf.

I know the QBs for all of those teams were all HoFers, but I do not believe they have rings if not for dynamic defenses.

[Poet]

The Steel curtain amassed great talent on D, had the best offense in the league, and one of the worst QB's to ever play in the HoF. If we could somehow get that talent for that long, then I agree.

The Niners had a wonderful defense, that is true. But they were blowing people out in the playoffs.

I don't like it, but if you go the route to win without a real QB, you can at most do it once. I wish we had different rules.

[dogfish]

if we could just get otto graham, we'd be set!

[DenBronx]

People keep saying Cousins might go to Minny. Why tf wouldn't Minny just resign Keenum who did great there and already knows the system AND is going to get way less than Cousins? They also have Bradford and Bridgewater to think about. I just don't see Minny being a player at all.

The Jets and Arizona on the other hand are going to be real players in the Cousins sweepstakes though...sadly. This means I can see Denver trading Talib to create room for Cousins. We have Roby, Elway drafted Roby for a reason. I would hate to see Talib traded but if that means getting Cousins then I am on board with that. I keep watching Cousins highlights, then I go watch Foles, Keenums and even future rookies and it's not even close imo as who is the better QB. Cousins, other than his jersey # reminds me alot of Steve Young and I want that here in Denver.

So...idgaf what it cost. Lets just go all in and get this guy!

[dogfish]

People keep saying Cousins might go to Minny. Why tf wouldn't Minny just resign Keenum who did great there and already knows the system AND is going to get way less than Cousins?

keenum doesn't know the system in minnesota anymore. . . OC pat shurmur left to be the coach of the giants. . . philly QB coach john d. philipo is the new OC for the vikes, so it's a blank slate no matter who their QB is. . .

[DenBronx]

People keep saying Cousins might go to Minny. Why tf wouldn't Minny just resign Keenum who did great there and already knows the system AND is going to get way less than Cousins?

keenum doesn't know the system in minnesota anymore. . . OC pat shurmur left to be the coach of the giants. . . philly QB coach john d. philipo is the new OC for the vikes, so it's a blank slate no matter who their QB is. . .

So we should just uproot our QB too then everytime we have a new scheme put in place? You could even say Minny upgraded their offense creativity. Why wouldn't Minny want to ride with a guy that's already there?

[wayninja]

I’m not saying they will, but Cousins is better than Keenum, no matter how you slice it.

Still, I agree with you that it’s unlikely for them to go chasing Cousins

[Northman]

Cousins wont be going to Minny regardless of losing their OC. Even if Minny loses interest in Keenum they are very high on Bridgewater. Granted, Cousins is better than both but the move would be pretty stupid when you have two capable QB's already there.

[Jsteve01]

Cousins wont be going to Minny regardless of losing their OC. Even if Minny loses interest in Keenum they are very high on Bridgewater. Granted, Cousins is better than both but the move would be pretty stupid when you have two capable QB's already there.and a really good defense.

[Jsteve01]

Fun fact. From the 2012 NFL draft which has produced more legit starting quarterback Talent than any draft in recent memory the best quarterbacks were a third-rounder two 4th rounders and an undrafted free agent. Wow you can only get top quarterback talent in the first round that's for sure

[Poet]

Fun fact. From the 2012 NFL draft which has produced more legit starting quarterback Talent than any draft in recent memory the best quarterbacks were a third-rounder two 4th rounders and an undrafted free agent. Wow you can only get top quarterback talent in the first round that's for sure

Does this exception disprove the rule? Or is it just variance piling up in one year?

[Jsteve01]

Fun fact. From the 2012 NFL draft which has produced more legit starting quarterback Talent than any draft in recent memory the best quarterbacks were a third-rounder two 4th rounders and an undrafted free agent. Wow you can only get top quarterback talent in the first round that's for sure

Does this exception disprove the rule? Or is it just variance piling up in one year? as I stated in a previous post there will be at minimum 10 starters in the League this year that were not first round draft picks. So as any statistician would do you have to look at history as a whole, and incorporate current trends. To top that four out of the top 10 quarterbacks in the League this year were not first round draft picks.

[Poet]

as I stated in a previous post there will be at minimum 10 starters in the League this year that were not first round draft picks. So as any statistician would do you have to look at history as a whole, and incorporate current trends. To top that four out of the top 10 quarterbacks in the League this year were not first round draft picks.

Just because you start doesn't mean you're any good. Cleveland's QB last year is an indication of that. You can incorporate the trend, but if there's no indication of it being anything more than a trend, it's not important. If you can play, you can play. Most of the guys who can play are first rounders. I say that as someone who would like to sign Cousins, although the idea of a rebuild and compiling draft picks sounds better each day.

[Jsteve01]

as I stated in a previous post there will be at minimum 10 starters in the League this year that were not first round draft picks. So as any statistician would do you have to look at history as a whole, and incorporate current trends. To top that four out of the top 10 quarterbacks in the League this year were not first round draft picks.

Just because you start doesn't mean you're any good. Cleveland's QB last year is an indication of that. You can incorporate the trend, but if there's no indication of it being anything more than a trend, it's not important. If you can play, you can play. Most of the guys who can play are first rounders. I say that as someone who would like to sign Cousins, although the idea of a rebuild and compiling draft picks sounds better each day. listen if I thought that John Elway was Ozzie Newsome then I would be a big fan of compiling draft picks. But history tells us that we do much better in free agency than we do with early round picks. You know everybody says you have to build through the draft but we won a Super Bowl because of free agency. Bella check is not all that great a drafter and has done extremely well in free agency and Via trade as well. And as I stated the key Trend to me is that four of the top 10 quarterbacks in the League last year were drafted outside of the first round the other stat is an indicator of a trend. The fact that so many good players were not first round picks is the essential number to me. So actually if the big concern is quality then there's actually more quality with the really good players than there is with the rest of the pics. You're always at any position going to have a better odd of getting a really good player higher. But the idea that you can't get good value at any position later is a fallacy based on the numbers from last year

[Jsteve01]

as I stated in a previous post there will be at minimum 10 starters in the League this year that were not first round draft picks. So as any statistician would do you have to look at history as a whole, and incorporate current trends. To top that four out of the top 10 quarterbacks in the League this year were not first round draft picks.

Just because you start doesn't mean you're any good. Cleveland's QB last year is an indication of that. You can incorporate the trend, but if there's no indication of it being anything more than a trend, it's not important. If you can play, you can play. Most of the guys who can play are first rounders. I say that as someone who would like to sign Cousins, although the idea of a rebuild and compiling draft picks sounds better each day.i would submit that coaching staff has a ton to do with qb performance. Cleveland is a horrid example. Couch was a surefire pick and they ruined him.

[Poet]

listen if I thought that John Elway was Ozzie Newsome then I would be a big fan of compiling draft picks. But history tells us that we do much better in free agency than we do with early round picks. You know everybody says you have to build through the draft but we won a Super Bowl because of free agency. Bella check is not all that great a drafter and has done extremely well in free agency and Via trade as well. And as I stated the key Trend to me is that four of the top 10 quarterbacks in the League last year were drafted outside of the first round the other stat is an indicator of a trend. The fact that so many good players were not first round picks is the essential number to me. So actually if the big concern is quality then there's actually more quality with the really good players than there is with the rest of the pics. You're always at any position going to have a better odd of getting a really good player higher. But the idea that you can't get good value at any position later is a fallacy based on the numbers from last year

Well the Patriots have a lot of turnover and yet the draft fairly well because of the volumes of the picks. Is that a fair response, in your opinion?

We won a SB with a rebuilt defense, but we were the ones who already had a SB contending roster (minus PFM) before we built that splendid D.

Last year we saw a bunch of QB's be 'great' for either the second or first time. Let's hold off on calling guys like Keenum even good before they show they weren't a fluke.

[Poet]

i would submit that coaching staff has a ton to do with qb performance. Cleveland is a horrid example. Couch was a surefire pick and they ruined him.

Couch was a QB from Kentucky. He was doomed immediately.

The point isn't that CLE is trash (duh) it's just that saying 'these guys are starters and not first rounders' means nothing if they're awful at the game. You know who has started a fair amount of games in their careers? Fitzpatrick, Hoyer, etc. Those guys aren't even close to being good. That's how bad the league's QB situation is.

[Jsteve01]

as I stated in a previous post there will be at minimum 10 starters in the League this year that were not first round draft picks. So as any statistician would do you have to look at history as a whole, and incorporate current trends. To top that four out of the top 10 quarterbacks in the League this year were not first round draft picks.

Just because you start doesn't mean you're any good. Cleveland's QB last year is an indication of that. You can incorporate the trend, but if there's no indication of it being anything more than a trend, it's not important. If you can play, you can play. Most of the guys who can play are first rounders. I say that as someone who would like to sign Cousins, although the idea of a rebuild and compiling draft picks sounds better each day.i would submit that coaching staff has a ton to do with qb performance. Cleveland is a horrid example. Couch was a surefire pick and they ruined him.and i didnt include Kizer in my starter projections. They are brady, brees wilson, cousins, keenum, dalton, carr, prescott, garropolo, and taylor. All of whom are middle of the pack or better. Im also not speculating that Foles or kaepernick starts.

[Jsteve01]

i would submit that coaching staff has a ton to do with qb performance. Cleveland is a horrid example. Couch was a surefire pick and they ruined him.

Couch was a QB from Kentucky. He was doomed immediately.

The point isn't that CLE is trash (duh) it's just that saying 'these guys are starters and not first rounders' means nothing if they're awful at the game. You know who has started a fair amount of games in their careers? Fitzpatrick, Hoyer, etc. Those guys aren't even close to being good. That's how bad the league's QB situation is. I didn't feel like it was fair to extrapolate from last year's data based on the number of quality starters that were hurt. My projections are all based on Legit middle-of-the-pack or better starters.

[Poet]

and i didnt include Kizer in my starter projections. They are brady, brees wilson, cousins, keenum, dalton, carr, prescott, garropolo, and taylor. All of whom are middle of the pack or better. Im also not speculating that Foles or kaepernick starts.

Brees was the 32nd pick in the draft and only feel out of the first round because the Niners were punished. He's not a real 'second rounder'.

Brady is a god. Wilson is a god. Cousins is good. Keenum is an unproven quantity. Dalton is an average regular season QB. Carr had one great year. Prescott is a game manager. Jimmy G is going to be a god. Taylor is a game manager.

You have two gods on that list.

Your list essentially relies (heavily) upon one anomaly from the early 2000's, the second big anomaly over a decade later, and unproven or one hit wonder QBs and game managers.

Now, to be fair, those are also my opinions on those players. I don't think we are going to change one another's minds, J. It was a great conversation, though. Post more.

[Jsteve01]

and i didnt include Kizer in my starter projections. They are brady, brees wilson, cousins, keenum, dalton, carr, prescott, garropolo, and taylor. All of whom are middle of the pack or better. Im also not speculating that Foles or kaepernick starts.

Brees was the 32nd pick in the draft and only feel out of the first round because the Niners were punished. He's not a real 'second rounder'.

Brady is a god. Wilson is a god. Cousins is good. Keenum is an unproven quantity. Dalton is an average regular season QB. Carr had one great year. Prescott is a game manager. Jimmy G is going to be a god. Taylor is a game manager.

You have two gods on that list.

Your list essentially relies (heavily) upon one anomaly from the early 2000's, the second big anomaly over a decade later, and unproven or one hit wonder QBs and game managers.

Now, to be fair, those are also my opinions on those players. I don't think we are going to change one another's minds, J. It was a great conversation, though. Post more. I know we won't. And of course I would prefer to draft a rosin, or darnold, or Mayfield. But I just hate the idea that we have no shot at a starter if he's drafted after the first. Wilson and cousins to me are the icons in this discussion. Both drafted within the past 10 years and both at the top of their game right now. And they both came out of the same draft as Andrew Luck. I'll say it now I was beating the table for Wilson all throughout the draft process I didn't care that he was a little bit older than Osweiler all you had to do was turn on the tape to see that he was the better quarterback in that he was going to be a very good NFL quarterback. Cousins I didn't have any track on. I thought he would be a pretty good backup.

[Poet]

Mayfield is iffy. Just trade up, pay the piper now, ad get Mr. UCLA. That's the actual best case scenario.

[Jsteve01]

Mayfield is iffy. Just trade up, pay the piper now, ad get Mr. UCLA. That's the actual best case scenario. I hated Mayfield during the season honestly, but he's grown on me. Josh scares me immensely. I've made the comparison before but he reminds me of a Sam Bradford. A guy that throws a great ball and is extremely frail if we were frustrated with Trevor's Frailty this year I don't know that Roseanne is the guy for the Broncos. Add in the fact that he didn't have the intangibles that Bradford has in leadership and personality and I just can't sell myself on him as the top quarterback in the draft

[Cugel]

Exactly.

It's the standard thing people say, "Elway (replace with whoever) screwed up. They could have gotten Von (replace with whoever) if they signed him earlier." That precludes the fact that Von and his agent know he's considered the best or second best defensive player in the league and somehow would have been lulled into a 20 or 35% discount or something by signing the extension a year early. Look at some of the recent big name extensions, like Stafford, signed with a year left, they don't come with major discounts.

He wasn't worth $18m a year until he became SB MVP and his contract expired right then. He had absolutely MAXIMUM leverage in those salary negotiations. The Broncos actually had to franchise him in order to prevent him from becoming an UFA. Then they had to enter the negotiations with ZERO leverage!

I do negotiations for a living. This is just terrible negotiating! Everybody knew that the Broncos had to re-sign Von Miller. They couldn't afford to keep him under the franchise tag contract without damaging their cap and other player negotiations. They couldn't let their SB MVP walk. They couldn't afford to alienate their best player who had just won them a championship.

In short, instead of doing what Von himself said he would do - agree to a little more than Justin Houston money of around $16m a year, they waited a year, and then paid him $18m a year going forward.

It made NO sense at all. And to pretend "why would Von sign for less than he was worth?"

1. Because he didn't want to risk everything due to injury.
2. He wanted his new signing bonus a year sooner rather than later.
3. He wanted long-term security of knowing he is going to be a Bronco for life. He didn't want to leave Denver and didn't want to have to play with the stress of intense contract negotiations hanging over his head.

There are a LOT of reasons why players will accept a deal 1 year early. Mark Schlereth keeps lecturing fans about this very matter all the time from the perspective of a 3 time SB champion who played in the league 12 years for several different teams, but some people just never get it.

[Poet]

I don't think negotiations lends themselves to hard and fast rules. Some players might make sign earlier than others for a variety of reasons. Others might want to gamble. I think that's what makes being a GM so hard - you have to play the field and know what your players want, which can change in real time.

[Jsteve01]

Exactly.

It's the standard thing people say, "Elway (replace with whoever) screwed up. They could have gotten Von (replace with whoever) if they signed him earlier." That precludes the fact that Von and his agent know he's considered the best or second best defensive player in the league and somehow would have been lulled into a 20 or 35% discount or something by signing the extension a year early. Look at some of the recent big name extensions, like Stafford, signed with a year left, they don't come with major discounts.

He wasn't worth $18m a year until he became SB MVP and his contract expired right then. He had absolutely MAXIMUM leverage in those salary negotiations. The Broncos actually had to franchise him in order to prevent him from becoming an UFA. Then they had to enter the negotiations with ZERO leverage!

I do negotiations for a living. This is just terrible negotiating! Everybody knew that the Broncos had to re-sign Von Miller. They couldn't afford to keep him under the franchise tag contract without damaging their cap and other player negotiations. They couldn't let their SB MVP walk. They couldn't afford to alienate their best player who had just won them a championship.

In short, instead of doing what Von himself said he would do - agree to a little more than Justin Houston money of around $16m a year, they waited a year, and then paid him $18m a year going forward.

It made NO sense at all. And to pretend "why would Von sign for less than he was worth?"

1. Because he didn't want to risk everything due to injury.
2. He wanted his new signing bonus a year sooner rather than later.
3. He wanted long-term security of knowing he is going to be a Bronco for life. He didn't want to leave Denver and didn't want to have to play with the stress of intense contract negotiations hanging over his head.

There are a LOT of reasons why players will accept a deal 1 year early. Mark Schlereth keeps lecturing fans about this very matter all the time from the perspective of a 3 time SB champion who played in the league 12 years for several different teams, but some people just never get it. for all of his flaws Mike Shanahan did a pretty good job of this. He either traded off of a guy when his value is high IE Clinton Portis, or he resigned them a year early as he did with mr. Davis

[Jsteve01]

Exactly.

It's the standard thing people say, "Elway (replace with whoever) screwed up. They could have gotten Von (replace with whoever) if they signed him earlier." That precludes the fact that Von and his agent know he's considered the best or second best defensive player in the league and somehow would have been lulled into a 20 or 35% discount or something by signing the extension a year early. Look at some of the recent big name extensions, like Stafford, signed with a year left, they don't come with major discounts.

He wasn't worth $18m a year until he became SB MVP and his contract expired right then. He had absolutely MAXIMUM leverage in those salary negotiations. The Broncos actually had to franchise him in order to prevent him from becoming an UFA. Then they had to enter the negotiations with ZERO leverage!

I do negotiations for a living. This is just terrible negotiating! Everybody knew that the Broncos had to re-sign Von Miller. They couldn't afford to keep him under the franchise tag contract without damaging their cap and other player negotiations. They couldn't let their SB MVP walk. They couldn't afford to alienate their best player who had just won them a championship.

In short, instead of doing what Von himself said he would do - agree to a little more than Justin Houston money of around $16m a year, they waited a year, and then paid him $18m a year going forward.

It made NO sense at all. And to pretend "why would Von sign for less than he was worth?"

1. Because he didn't want to risk everything due to injury.
2. He wanted his new signing bonus a year sooner rather than later.
3. He wanted long-term security of knowing he is going to be a Bronco for life. He didn't want to leave Denver and didn't want to have to play with the stress of intense contract negotiations hanging over his head.

There are a LOT of reasons why players will accept a deal 1 year early. Mark Schlereth keeps lecturing fans about this very matter all the time from the perspective of a 3 time SB champion who played in the league 12 years for several different teams, but some people just never get it. you also generate a little bit of Goodwill with players when you choose to reward them prior to their contract year. I don't know that you can place a value on that, but it's definitely good in the locker room. And it makes you a more desirable location for free agents. John has developed a little bit of a reputation is being cut throat after reworking the deals for Manning and Ware. Not sure that that helped him when we were recruiting Campbell last year

[Cugel]

I hated Mayfield during the season honestly, but he's grown on me. Josh scares me immensely. I've made the comparison before but he reminds me of a Sam Bradford. A guy that throws a great ball and is extremely frail if we were frustrated with Trevor's Frailty this year I don't know that Roseanne is the guy for the Broncos. Add in the fact that he didn't have the intangibles that Bradford has in leadership and personality and I just can't sell myself on him as the top quarterback in the draft

Well, if he were the top QB in this draft Cleveland would take him and refuse to trade their #1 pick. If he were the #2 prospect, the Giants would take him and refuse to trade their pick.

In fact, most NFL observers expect Darnold and Rosen to go 1, 2, and there's no apparent consensus on who the #3 QB is and where he might land. That's usually a sign that everybody thinks there are two elite QB prospects and a bunch of "maybe" guys.

And Denver is not in position to draft either of the top 2 prospects.

Of course, I grant you that in this particular draft, nobody can be sure that Allen or Mayfield might not be the best QB five years from now.

I'm not a GM but it does look like Cleveland will take Darnold and the Giants Rosen, and that neither team will seriously consider trading their picks.

Cleveland is especially wary of trading down after they blew the chance to draft Carson Wentz and ended up firing the GM who made that decision. If they pass on another QB at #1 overall, then that QB turns out to be another Wentz, then the ridicule of their franchise will just escalate.

Under those circumstances, it's just easier to draft the best QB on their board at #1 and be done with it, rather than take any chances. And that probably is Darnold since Rosen said he doesn't want to play for them.

As for the Giants, Eli is nearing the end. They benched him this year and then fired the coach who did it. But, now is the obvious time and Rosen is the obvious choice at QB.

Could be they like Allen or Mayfield for all anybody knows, but Rosen does appear to be the leading candidate.

So Josh Allen might well be the 3rd QB in terms of prospects in this draft. He has a lot of skills, but a lot of question marks in terms of accuracy.

If the Broncos go for athleticism again and take Allen, they will have to work really hard to develop this guy because he could be very raw.

Personally, I'd MUCH rather they signed Kirk Cousins and drafted a stud OT or G. Strengthen the OL until it's the strongest unit on your team. Get a stud TE or WR in the second round. Or maybe draft a DT to create some middle pressure they've been lacking since Malik Jackson left.

[Cugel]

you also generate a little bit of Goodwill with players when you choose to reward them prior to their contract year. I don't know that you can place a value on that, but it's definitely good in the locker room. And it makes you a more desirable location for free agents. John has developed a little bit of a reputation is being cut throat after reworking the deals for Manning and Ware. Not sure that that helped him when we were recruiting Campbell last year

Schelerth talks a lot about that as well. He keeps insisting that the key ingredient in any championship run is the willingness of guys in the locker room to sell out totally to play for each other. It's hard to do that for an organization that doesn't reward you.

The franchises that reward their own proven players with big contracts do generate more harmony and that usually helps them win more. Of course, you have to have the right players to begin with, and that has been Denver's problem.

They keep drafting guys like Sylvester Williams, Michael Schofield, Ty Sambrailo and Montee Ball with high draft picks! And they keep signing FA stiffs like Menelik Watson and then the guy doesn't pan out.

[Cugel]

I don't think negotiations lends themselves to hard and fast rules. Some players might make sign earlier than others for a variety of reasons. Others might want to gamble. I think that's what makes being a GM so hard - you have to play the field and know what your players want, which can change in real time.

That's true. I was just going off Von Miller's own comments after he signed his deal that he would have signed for less 1 year earlier. (Reportedly slightly more than Justin Houston got which was about $16m/yr.)

Malik Jackson later expressed regret at leaving Denver and said much the same thing (although I imagine he's changed his views after watching Denver tank this past year while Jacksonville went to the AFC Championship).

I don't know about Danny Trevathan. But, those other two players wanted to stay in Denver but Denver waited until they hit FA and then couldn't afford them. Both could be under contract right now for less than they are being paid - according to them in comments made to Denver media guys.

Now, maybe that's not true, but that was apparently what they said, unless those media reports were false.

[Cugel]

I know we won't. And of course I would prefer to draft a rosin, or darnold, or Mayfield. But I just hate the idea that we have no shot at a starter if he's drafted after the first. Wilson and cousins to me are the icons in this discussion. Both drafted within the past 10 years and both at the top of their game right now. And they both came out of the same draft as Andrew Luck. I'll say it now I was beating the table for Wilson all throughout the draft process I didn't care that he was a little bit older than Osweiler all you had to do was turn on the tape to see that he was the better quarterback in that he was going to be a very good NFL quarterback. Cousins I didn't have any track on. I thought he would be a pretty good backup.

Well, then you were smarter than all 32 NFL GMs because NONE of them rated Wilson as a franchise QB, since they all let him fall to the 3rd round.

That's a situation where the scouting community did not like Wilson for various reasons and liked RGIII, Ryan Tannehill, Branden Weeden, and Brock Osweiler better than him.

But, Wilson's success does NOT mean that drafting a QB in the third round is a good idea:

Here's some recent 3rd round QBs:

2016:
Jacoby Brissett
Cody Kessler

2015:
Garrett Grayson
Steve Manion

2013:
Mike Glennon

2012:
Russell Wilson
Nick Foles
(here you see the exceptions)

But:

2011:
Ryan Mallett

2010:
Colt McCoy

2009:
Kevin O'Connell

2007:
Trent Edwards

2006:
Charlie Whitehurst
Brodie Croyle

2005:
Charlie Frye
Andrew Walter
David Greene

And so on. Most likely you're drafting a Charlie Frye or Brodie Croyle, and not Russell Wilson, so it's not a good idea to draft a 3rd round QB unless you already have a starter and just want to groom a backup who might ultimately turn out to be better than expected - like Jimmy Garapolo say.

YOu might get lucky, but the odds are not in your favor - rather like the Broncos insisting that 7th round QB Trevor Siemian was their franchise QB for the future, only to have him flame out immediately. They just wasted 2 years screwing around trying to develop Trevor and Paxton Lynch instead of going out and getting a proven veteran who could win now, or even drafting a top QB prospect instead of Paxton Lynch.

[chazoe60]

as I stated in a previous post there will be at minimum 10 starters in the League this year that were not first round draft picks. So as any statistician would do you have to look at history as a whole, and incorporate current trends. To top that four out of the top 10 quarterbacks in the League this year were not first round draft picks.

How many of those 10 were second round picks? Drew Brees was the first pick in the second round IIRC.

[Jsteve01]

as I stated in a previous post there will be at minimum 10 starters in the League this year that were not first round draft picks. So as any statistician would do you have to look at history as a whole, and incorporate current trends. To top that four out of the top 10 quarterbacks in the League this year were not first round draft picks.

How many of those 10 were second round picks? Drew Brees was the first pick in the second round IIRC. Brees, Carr, Jimmy G, and Dalton

[wayninja]

I have it on good authority that the jury is still out on Brissett

[Joel]

going out on a limb hey? lol

If Denver wants him they are going to have to outbid more than one other team and one of them is the Jets, where a lot of people think he signs. He made almost that last season, I doubt he wants to go into free agency and sign for less.
If the Jets want to spend $27M/yr on a journeyman QB, that just increases our odds of drafting a solid QBotF prospect with the #5 overall pick.

Everyone acts like draft picks are gold plated, especially at the start of the year, especially 1st rounders and ESPECIALLY top 5 picks, but the reality is that a 1st round picks biggest upsides under the current CBA are the rookie salary cap limiting the damage a bust can do and the fifth-year team option "buying" time to find cap space for players who live up to their 1st round pick. As opposed to shelling out cap-breaking money for an Osweiler, Cassel or Flynn, then just having to eat 2-3 bad seasons while waiting for even a CHANCE to correct that dire error.

The higher our draft position, the more sense Best Player Available makes, because we're not reduced to the best player LEFT after 20+ teams took all the genuinely great ones. And even if that weren't true, I'd still want to put a solid line between top pass rushers and any potential rookie QB, lest having NO time to read the coverage nor go through progressions physically, mentally, emotionally and PERMANENTLY cripples our designated savior.

Yet if we are going for a QB (no law disqualifies QBs from being the BPA at #5, which is a good example of why BPA makes tons of sense at #5 but none at #25, where few top QB prospects remain) the Jets are a potential threat to that. They currently draft immediately after us, but Clevelands Osweiler trade combined with Houstons abysmal season gives the Browns TWO picks before us, BOTH of which could be spent on QBs if they trade one to the Jets (because even Cleveland's not stupid enough to spend TWO top five picks on the same position, even QB.) And the real, literal, bottom line is that Cousins would be hideously overvalued at $27M/yr, especially since that's money we sorely need to address the harsh truth that 5-11 teams need a LOT more than just a SINGLE player (even a QB.)

[MOtorboat]

If the Jets want to spend $27M/yr on a journeyman QB, that just increases our odds of drafting a solid QBotF prospect with the #5 overall pick.

Everyone acts like draft picks are gold plated, especially at the start of the year, especially 1st rounders and ESPECIALLY top 5 picks, but the reality is that a 1st round picks biggest upsides under the current CBA are the rookie salary cap limiting the damage a bust can do and the fifth-year team option "buying" time to find cap space for players who live up to their 1st round pick. As opposed to shelling out cap-breaking money for an Osweiler, Cassel or Flynn, then just having to eat 2-3 bad seasons while waiting for even a CHANCE to correct that dire error.

The higher our draft position, the more sense Best Player Available makes, because we're not reduced to the best player LEFT after 20+ teams took all the genuinely great ones. And even if that weren't true, I'd still want to put a solid line between top pass rushers and any potential rookie QB, lest having NO time to read the coverage nor go through progressions physically, mentally, emotionally and PERMANENTLY cripples our designated savior.

Yet if we are going for a QB (no law disqualifies QBs from being the BPA at #5, which is a good example of why BPA makes tons of sense at #5 but none at #25, where few top QB prospects remain) the Jets are a potential threat to that. They currently draft immediately after us, but Clevelands Osweiler trade combined with Houstons abysmal season gives the Browns TWO picks before us, BOTH of which could be spent on QBs if they trade one to the Jets (because even Cleveland's not stupid enough to spend TWO top five picks on the same position, even QB.) And the real, literal, bottom line is that Cousins would be hideously overvalued at $27M/yr, especially since that's money we sorely need to address the harsh truth that 5-11 teams need a LOT more than just a SINGLE player (even a QB.)

Remember when you said Denver couldn't afford any other free agents if they signed Peyton Manning?

Me too.

[Rick]

Say what you will about Elway, the one thing he has never done as a GM is put this team in a bad spot with contacts.

No matter how much we or he wants a player, there hasn't been a single guy signed that crippled us with the contact.

Even Manning had contract outs.

Now with the nature of things he may have to be more risky with the Cousins contact but if it is too risky I see him passing.

Elway sets a max and really doesn't budget from this.

On another note, the comments about Cousins being a journeyman, come on now. There are plenty of cases of journeyman and he isn't one of them. He is a franchise QB and has proven that for the last 3 years.

[Northman]

On another note, the comments about Cousins being a journeyman, come on now. There are plenty of cases of journeyman and he isn't one of them. He is a franchise QB and has proven that for the last 3 years.

Indeed.

That was absolutely the dumbest comment regarding Cousins ive ever seen.

I guess that makes Peyton Manning a Journeyman too. Lmao

[Broncoknight30]

Say what you will about Elway, the one thing he has never done as a GM is put this team in a bad spot with contacts.

No matter how much we or he wants a player, there hasn't been a single guy signed that crippled us with the contact.

Even Manning had contract outs.

Now with the nature of things he may have to be more risky with the Cousins contact but if it is too risky I see him passing.

Elway sets a max and really doesn't budget from this.

On another note, the comments about Cousins being a journeyman, come on now. There are plenty of cases of journeyman and he isn't one of them. He is a franchise QB and has proven that for the last 3 years.

If Elway has never signed anyone that has crippled the Broncos with a contract, then dont expect him to sign Cousins. Who, will cripple this franchise with his contract. Then again Elway did attempt to Osweiler pretty big money. Then again Osweiler did go 5 and 2 as a starter and outdueled Brady.

Anyway, not sure if you all want Cousins contract to cripple this franchise or not. I do know you want Cousins, seemingly no matter the cost.

Is that what you want?

[Poet]

No one wants the team to be crippled in any semblance of that word...

[Rick]

I say we see what the contact is before assuming we will be crippled.

Even mega deals can be structured creatively.

[Valar Morghulis]

Yes, that is correct.

I want a journeyman QB to be signed to a multi-year deal that will cripple us for years to come, because is that not what all fans want for their team?

At least then i can spend my money on merchandise for a failing franchise and dedicate my team to watching mediocrity.

I would hate it if we somehow managed to creatively acquire a top free agent that would set us up for the next decade at the position.





j/k - if the contract is going to cripple us, i am fairly certain that in that case - no fan would want us to sign him. (just in case that actually needed to be overtly stated)

[Broncoknight30]

Yes, that is correct.

I want a journeyman QB to be signed to a multi-year deal that will cripple us for years to come, because is that not what all fans want for their team?

At least then i can spend my money on merchandise for a failing franchise and dedicate my team to watching mediocrity.

I would hate it if we somehow managed to creatively acquire a top free agent that would set us up for the next decade at the position.





j/k - if the contract is going to cripple us, i am fairly certain that in that case - no fan would want us to sign him. (just in case that actually needed to be overtly stated)

The problem is....a few things. One, what JG just signed for in San Fran, which sets the number.....very high, considering JG has 7 starts to his name.

Two, the number of teams in the Cousins sweeptakes. An agents dream scenario, considering how desperate those teams are and how much money a few of them have under the cap.

In for Elway to compete with those scenarios that are the givens, yes this team would be CRIPPLED to win Cousins.

You all are not seeing this?

[Northman]

No one wants the team to be crippled in any semblance of that word...

Exactly. But there is nothing like overreaction on a messageboard. :lol:

[Poet]

The problem is....a few things. One, what JG just signed for in San Fran, which sets the number.....very high, considering JG has 7 starts to his name.

Two, the number of teams in the Cousins sweeptakes. An agents dream scenario, considering how desperate those teams are and how much money a few of them have under the cap.

In for Elway to compete with those scenarios that are the givens, yes this team would be CRIPPLED to win Cousins.

You all are not seeing this?

You say that we want the team crippled - which places upon us this strange self-hating desire. You're mixing what you think the result would be upon us and what we think the result would be.

The JG deal showcases a creative way to give a player the mega deal that they want while giving the team something a means of paying out that top dollar deal in a non-crippling way.

I'm not saying that there's a viable way that we can do that - but I'm also saying that it's the job of the GM to come up with those ways.

[Broncoknight30]

Exactly. But there is nothing like overreaction on a messageboard. :lol:

Then the realistic way to look at it, is no Cousins. Sorry, not buying this creative scenario. One thing if there were not other teams stumbling over themselves to sign him.

They "may" be able to get something decent but I doubt it would be anything so significant.

Maybe....

[Poet]

Then the realistic way to look at it, is no Cousins. Sorry, not buying this creative scenario. One thing if there were not other teams stumbling over themselves to sign him.

They "may" be able to get something decent but I doubt it would be anything so significant.

Maybe....

I'm not sure that no Cousins is the realistic way to approach it. The Broncos still had a very stout defense this year. Yet, every single time we faced an elite team the defense crumbled. And that was typically because the offense left them on the field for far too long, and we got smoked on the field position game. So, I know that you've argued for defense. Well, if slanting heavily towards defense with no offense doesn't cut it, and not having a defense doesn't cut it, maybe some balance is called for?

And maybe, just maybe, adding some balance to the team mitigates the cost of Cousins or adds value to the signing?

[Cugel]

Adam Schefter Reports: How Jimmy Garoppolo's monster contract could become a bargain (http://www.espn.com/blog/san-francisco-49ers/post/_/id/30411/how-jimmy-garoppolos-monster-contract-could-become-a-bargain)

SANTA CLARA, Calif. -- With seven starts to his name after sitting behind an NFL legend for the better part of three years, a promising young quarterback once earned a lucrative contract extension without much of a sample size.

At the time the deal was considered eye-opening, but it didn't take long before the Green Bay Packers' first contract extension with quarterback Aaron Rodgers became a major bargain compared to the big money being handed out to other top signal-callers around the league. That all happened back in 2008. By the end of 2009, Rodgers had taken Green Bay to the postseason. By 2010, he had led the Packers to a Super Bowl championship, and a year later he was named league MVP.

If the first part of that equation sounds familiar, it should. The latest version of it just played out on Thursday afternoon as the San Francisco 49ers agreed to terms with their own promising quarterback, Jimmy Garoppolo, on a record-setting five-year, $137.5 million deal that is expected to pay out just shy of $90 million in the first three years, according to ESPN's Adam Schefter.

But now the conflicting reports are that the 49ers are giving Jimmy G somewhere around a $47m signing bonus in year one, and that all but $7m of his guaranteed money is in the first year, thus making this essentially a MUCH lower contract than the ginormous $30m guaranteed a year for the first three years number that has all observers surprised.

If this is true, what they are reporting on Orange & Blue 760, then basically, the 49ers could walk away after year 1 of this contract, and take a $7m cap hit in 2019. Of course, that would be a much worse fiasco than the Brock Osweiler contract in Houston, and nobody, least of all John Lynch expects they would do that, but it would not cripple the franchise going forward if they had to part ways with Garopolo.

And Kirk Cousin's contract can be handled in such a way that it doesn't cause a cap-tastrophe on the team he goes to. The Broncos will not actually have to cut anybody to afford Cousins, they would have to re-structure some contracts but, it's certainly doable given the arcane NFL salary cap rules that allow teams to "front load" contracts and then have the cap hit spread out over the life of the contract.

[Northman]

Then the realistic way to look at it, is no Cousins. Sorry, not buying this creative scenario. One thing if there were not other teams stumbling over themselves to sign him.

They "may" be able to get something decent but I doubt it would be anything so significant.

Maybe....

You dont think the Niners and Titans were stumbling over themselves to get Manning when he hit the market?

[Northman]

I'm not sure that no Cousins is the realistic way to approach it. The Broncos still had a very stout defense this year. Yet, every single time we faced an elite team the defense crumbled. And that was typically because the offense left them on the field for far too long, and we got smoked on the field position game. So, I know that you've argued for defense. Well, if slanting heavily towards defense with no offense doesn't cut it, and not having a defense doesn't cut it, maybe some balance is called for?

And maybe, just maybe, adding some balance to the team mitigates the cost of Cousins or adds value to the signing?


Agreed.

The thing is, if you are going to rebuild than shit or get off the pot. Use DT as trade bait for players and picks, either trade or cut Talib but either this team is close to another championship run or its not. IF its not, then the team needs to clean the roster and starting building through the draft and lower cost FA. If they are looking to make a SB run than going after Cousins makes a lot of sense. Do you sacrifice 10 years and a 100 draft picks for him? No. But we dont even know yet what Cousins is going to settle for. Ive said it before, if Cousins is all about nothing but money let him go to Cleveland or NY its no sweat off my back. But if he is looking to actually win championships than i can certainly see Denver working something out with him. But until the league even knows what he is looking for its nothing but speculation and drama queens going nuts over "what ifs".

[Poet]

Agreed.

The thing is, if you are going to rebuild than shit or get off the pot. Use DT as trade bait for players and picks, either trade or cut Talib but either this team is close to another championship run or its not. IF its not, then the team needs to clean the roster and starting building through the draft and lower cost FA. If they are looking to make a SB run than going after Cousins makes a lot of sense. Do you sacrifice 10 years and a 100 draft picks for him? No. But we dont even know yet what Cousins is going to settle for. Ive said it before, if Cousins is all about nothing but money let him go to Cleveland or NY its no sweat off my back. But if he is looking to actually win championships than i can certainly see Denver working something out with him. But until the league even knows what he is looking for its nothing but speculation and drama queens going nuts over "what ifs".

I agree with this wholeheartedly. If we want to rebuild, I don't want to see Talib, Von Miller, Chris Harris, Wolfe, CJ, DT, ES, Virgil Green, any of those guys back. Just blow it the **** up and get a ton of picks. That's what it should be. That's why I was so critical of the FA period we had last year.

[Broncoknight30]

You dont think the Niners and Titans were stumbling over themselves to get Manning when he hit the market?

You see, the irony of the whole Manning situation is lost on most of us. Including me at times, especially enduring the shit offense.

Let us consider something with that. When the Broncos won it, Manning was not really the reason. The defense, was relatively cheap that year considering Miller did not have his deal, neither did Wolfe. Chris Harris was pretty cheap, Ware did not break the bank. What Manning did do in regards to talents like Ware and Sanders is they wanted a ring and so they signed here for a little less.

We can compare and contrast that 2013 season with 2015. It is clear what wins championships.

[Northman]

You see, the irony of the whole Manning situation is lost on most of us. Including me at times, especially enduring the shit offense.

Let us consider something with that. When the Broncos won it, Manning was not really the reason. The defense, was relatively cheap that year considering Miller did not have his deal, neither did Wolfe. Chris Harris was pretty cheap, Ware did not break the bank. What Manning did do in regards to talents like Ware and Sanders is they wanted a ring and so they signed here for a little less.

We can compare and contrast that 2013 season with 2015. It is clear what wins championships.

Except most SB's won in the past decade have been won more with top rated offenses. I even pointed that out when i researched the rankings of offenses and defenses for those winners.

[Poet]

You see, the irony of the whole Manning situation is lost on most of us. Including me at times, especially enduring the shit offense.

Let us consider something with that. When the Broncos won it, Manning was not the reason. Far from it. The defense, was relatively cheap that year considering Miller did not have his deal, neither did Wolfe. Chris Harris was pretty cheap, Ware did not break the bank. What Manning did do in regards to talents like Ware and Sanders is they wanted a ring and so they signed here for a little less.

We can compare and contrast that 2013 season with 2015. It is clear what wins championships.

There are multiple ways to win a SB. The past two SB's have been won by a great QB and not because of defense.

If the response is that you aren't going to find a great QB in Cousins, but just a good one, and defense is the route, then how do we build another all-time great defense?

If the response to that is right now we can't, and we don't want to rebuild, then what can we do to get the most overall improvement?

The answers is a QB.

Or to rebuild.

But if we're talking about long term impact, pointing to winning with defense isn't much of a response. A good defense doesn't win you a championship - it's an alltime great one that does. And I see more all-time great QB's in the league consistently than all-time great defenses. Because those defenses cost more than the QB, and when you tinker with, for example, the D-Line, and you lose a piece, the rest of the defense gets bad. They're precious and fragile thinks, ironically.

[Northman]

Going by your logic Knight, if all it takes is defense than im guessing you think Denver wasted its time getting John Elway or even Peyton Manning? If Defense is all it takes than we might as well kept Tebow, Cutler, Orton, etc. Out of all the champions in the last three decades can you tell me how many Non-HOF QB's are in that list? If not, i will be glad to pull that up for you.

[Poet]

Going by your logic Knight, if all it takes is defense than im guessing you think Denver wasted its time getting John Elway or even Peyton Manning? If Defense is all it takes than we might as well kept Tebow, Cutler, Orton, etc. Out of all the champions in the last three decades can you tell me how many Non-HOF QB's are in that list? If not, i will be glad to pull that up for you.

Exactly. And to me, the real question with Cousins is what is he? He can put up numbers and play well in tough spots. But, has he peaked? If so, he's probably just a good QB and not a (consistently) great one. I can accept the notion that Cousins is not good enough to warrant the money, not in the sense that you're overpaying the market value, but in the sense that he's just going to prop up the team for several years but you can't get it done with him.

Then again, making the playoffs and at least having the chance to go on a run like the Ravens/Giants did earlier on is enticing. But it does seem like Knight (and if this isn't your point of contention I apologize for the misrepresentation of your argument, Knight) is essentially poopooing QB's/offenses.

[Broncoknight30]

There are multiple ways to win a SB. The past two SB's have been won by a great QB and not because of defense.

If the response is that you aren't going to find a great QB in Cousins, but just a good one, and defense is the route, then how do we build another all-time great defense?

If the response to that is right now we can't, and we don't want to rebuild, then what can we do to get the most overall improvement?

The answers is a QB.

Or to rebuild.

But if we're talking about long term impact, pointing to winning with defense isn't much of a response. A good defense doesn't win you a championship - it's an alltime great one that does. And I see more all-time great QB's in the league consistently than all-time great defenses. Because those defenses cost more than the QB, and when you tinker with, for example, the D-Line, and you lose a piece, the rest of the defense gets bad. They're precious and fragile thinks, ironically.

Again, 4 of the top 5 defenses PPG were the teams in the championship games and SB. Last year, the Pats were number 1 in defense PPG. Broncos number 1 in 2015. The Pats in 2014 had their best defense they had in years and they finally win it after 10 years. The Seahawks number 1 in defense in 2013.

The last 4 SBs were actually decided on defensive plays. Not saying this years SB or last years SB had great defensive games, but look at what those defenses did in the play offs. The Eagles held the Falcons to 10 points and the Vikings to 7 points.

[chazoe60]

My ideal offseason

Draft Rosen, shore up the OL and keep the D as intact as possible.

[Broncoknight30]

Exactly. And to me, the real question with Cousins is what is he? He can put up numbers and play well in tough spots. But, has he peaked? If so, he's probably just a good QB and not a (consistently) great one. I can accept the notion that Cousins is not good enough to warrant the money, not in the sense that you're overpaying the market value, but in the sense that he's just going to prop up the team for several years but you can't get it done with him.

Then again, making the playoffs and at least having the chance to go on a run like the Ravens/Giants did earlier on is enticing. But it does seem like Knight (and if this isn't your point of contention I apologize for the misrepresentation of your argument, Knight) is essentially poopooing QB's/offenses.

I want this team to either draft the best ILB or get someone that can adequately replace Demarcus Ware. IMO, the biggest problem with this team last year was actually the defensive numbers being way off. Meaning, Broncos defense sank to 22nd in sacks in the NFL. They were 24th in ints, and last in the league in fumbles recovered.*

I know it sounds crazy, and just to put into some perspective. The Broncos offense in 2015 was ranked 16th in the NFL. This year, Broncos offense ranked 17th overall offense.*

The one huge disparaging difference between that team that won it in 2015 and this years team that sucked were those crucial defensive numbers. Sacks (pressure) generated, and lack of turnovers generated.*

I do not think Shane Ray is that answer. I have read he is down to 220LBs. Barrett is a solid rotational guy, which in itself is quite valuable, but he is not that dynamic pass rusher that strikes fear opposite Von on the other side.*

I really think that is the biggest problem with this team. If those numbers are up, then I truly believe there would have been more wins last year. That being said, I would rather have a Keenum, and see what Kelly has as a backup. Keenum would be relatively cheap compared to a freaking Kirk Cousins, who will be the highest paid player in the NFL history.*

That way Denver can upgrade their weakening defense. That is the key, and we as fans are acting like the Browns fans. Trying to find that QB that takes pure and utter luck to get one. Chasing our tails. Then when the rookie comes in and is a BUST, they have to hire a new coach who then brings in an entire new philosophy. That bust of a QB starts over from scratch, his confidence is wrecked, and then it is time to try and get ANOTHER bad QB. Meanwhile, money is thrown away and the defense never gets adequately fixed.*

Top 5 defenses this year with PPG, just in case we want to be reminded. For anyone that may have missed this point earlier...

1. Minnesota
2. Jacksonville
3. Chargers
4. Philadelphia
5. New England

What do you all think? Chase our tails, or get another great pass rusher so those crucial numbers improve?

[Poet]

The Philly offense, with a backup QB, put up godtier numbers in the postseason, and Wentz was the probably MVP before he was hurt and led the league in passing TD's.

The Philly defense got spanked in the SB and made one or two meaningful plays.

Are you sure you want to point to SB success in this era and point to defenses and championships? I don't think that argument works right now.

[Broncoknight30]

The Philly offense, with a backup QB, put up godtier numbers in the postseason, and Wentz was the probably MVP before he was hurt and led the league in passing TD's.

The Philly defense got spanked in the SB and made one or two meaningful plays.

Are you sure you want to point to SB success in this era and point to defenses and championships? I don't think that argument works right now.

They would not have been in the SB if not for their defense. Watch the entire play off game against the Falcons.

[chazoe60]

We need a know-it-all section of the MB where certain members can make long winded posts explaining their opinions as facts and lecturing each other about how much smarter they are than everyone else.

[MOtorboat]

My ideal offseason

Draft Rosen, shore up the OL and keep the D as intact as possible.

This is the ideal situation to me, as well. But Rosen is basically out of reach at 5, so Plan B to me is Cousins. I guess we'll see how Elway handles it.

As to the team-building discussion: Quarterback is, far and away, the most important thing on an NFL team in this era. Far and away.

[Poet]

They would not have been in the SB if not for their defense. Watch the entire play off game against the Falcons.

So the main merits of the defense was that it wasn't really needed in the regular season (MVP QB) but it was useful in one playoff game? You're talking about winning championships and while Philly has a great team, they won it on the back of an offense. In the SB. Earlier you cited to SB's coming down to defensive plays, but you don't seem to want to talk about the overall games themselves?

Your overall argument has merit. I think that there are shades of merit and truth in all of these things. :salute:

[Poet]

We need a know-it-all section of the MB where certain members can make long winded posts explaining their opinions as facts and lecturing each other about how much smarter they are than everyone else.

Sheesh man! I'm right here!

[dogfish]

I'm not sure that no Cousins is the realistic way to approach it. The Broncos still had a very stout defense this year. Yet, every single time we faced an elite team the defense crumbled. And that was typically because the offense left them on the field for far too long, and we got smoked on the field position game. So, I know that you've argued for defense. Well, if slanting heavily towards defense with no offense doesn't cut it, and not having a defense doesn't cut it, maybe some balance is called for?

And maybe, just maybe, adding some balance to the team mitigates the cost of Cousins or adds value to the signing?

no, dude, we are effing doomed! getting cousins is a sign of the apocalypse. . .


:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[dogfish]

This is the ideal situation to me, as well. But Rosen is basically out of reach at 5, so Plan B to me is Cousins. I guess we'll see how Elway handles it.

As to the team-building discussion: Quarterback is, far and away, the most important thing on an NFL team in this era. Far and away.

QBs don't matter. . . i am really surprised that no NFL GMs have managed to figure this out. . .

[Freyaka]

I'm certainly not trying to downplay Tom Brady's skills, but they got really good production out of Jimmy G too. That team is more than the sum of its parts.

How many guys have we seen come out of new england putting up really good numbers only to go somewhere else and fall off hard?

I'm always trying to downplay Brady's skills...He's a glorified system QB, but counter-point to your statement, the Niners got really good production out of Jimmy G too... A better example would be Cassell.

[Freyaka]

Mayfield is iffy. Just trade up, pay the piper now, ad get Mr. UCLA. That's the actual best case scenario.

And what UCLA QB in recent history has been anything other than complete and utter fools gold? #JustSayNoToRosen

[Poet]

Then say no to Darnold, too. And Allen because his school doesn't produce anything. And Wentz, because his school didn't...wait a minute.

Rosen is physically superb and he's the best mind in the entire draft. Show me a QB who can pass like him, who thinks like him, and who is as competitive as him. Show me that guy, and that's who I want.

[MOtorboat]

And what UCLA QB in recent history has been anything other than complete and utter fools gold? #JustSayNoToRosen

This is just bad reasoning. Don't like Rosen because you don't think he has the NFL tools or the mental aptitude, whatever it is you think he doesn't have, but pinning it on a college (or a conference) is bad reasoning.

Michigan quarterbacks were awful until Tom Brady showed up. Tennessee quarterbacks sucked until Peyton Manning got drafted. USC quarterbacks were duds until Carson Palmer. School history, conference history, has no bearing on whether a quarterback will succeed or not.

[MOtorboat]

And FWIW (probably nothing), Purdue, UCLA and Alabama are the only schools who have multiple quarterbacks in the Pro Hall of Fame.

[Tned]

We need a know-it-all section of the MB where certain members can make long winded posts explaining their opinions as facts and lecturing each other about how much smarter they are than everyone else.

Stand by a few. I'm typing up a long winded response in Word (to try an limit my normal load of typos) that will list all of the facts that show you are wrong on this.

[Freyaka]

Then say no to Darnold, too. And Allen because his school doesn't produce anything. And Wentz, because his school didn't...wait a minute.

Rosen is physically superb and he's the best mind in the entire draft. Show me a QB who can pass like him, who thinks like him, and who is as competitive as him. Show me that guy, and that's who I want.

Actually Darnold was who I was thinking of...USC, not UCLA, carry on. I have no beef against Rosen.

[Jsteve01]

Then say no to Darnold, too. And Allen because his school doesn't produce anything. And Wentz, because his school didn't...wait a minute.

Rosen is physically superb and he's the best mind in the entire draft. Show me a QB who can pass like him, who thinks like him, and who is as competitive as him. Show me that guy, and that's who I want.

Actually Darnold was who I was thinking of...USC, not UCLA, carry on. I have no beef against Rosen. Rosen is a bust waiting to happen. As I said before he Sam Bradford Frailty wise without Bradford's intangibles and personality. Look at the guy man slight shoulders he's built like an MIT engineer. I know he throws the best ball in the draft. But Kenny work well with other people? For me if I'm doing that. I'm going Sam or Baker.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Rosen is a bust waiting to happen. As I said before he Sam Bradford Frailty wise without Bradford's intangibles and personality. Look at the guy man slight shoulders he's built like an MIT engineer. I know he throws the best ball in the draft. But Kenny work well with other people? For me if I'm doing that. I'm going Sam or Baker.

This biggest concern I have with Rosen is that he’s already suffered an injury to his throwing shoulder and had 2 concussions this past year. Both are absolute no nos when looking at a QB, IMO. The thought of us drafting him high and either he can’t finish a season due to injuries, or worse he “retires” after his next concussion or a season or two because so many oft concussed players are doing it now or because he just doesn’t need the money. He comes from money.

[Poet]

Rosen is a bust waiting to happen. As I said before he Sam Bradford Frailty wise without Bradford's intangibles and personality. Look at the guy man slight shoulders he's built like an MIT engineer. I know he throws the best ball in the draft. But Kenny work well with other people? For me if I'm doing that. I'm going Sam or Baker.


Can he work well with other people? Well, he's a dominating personality that is hyper competitive and needs to win. **** yeah he can. As far as his build, I've seen Bradford in person, and Rosen isn't a giant, but they don't the same to me, man. They don't.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Can he work well with other people? Well, he's a dominating personality that is hyper competitive and needs to win. **** yeah he can. As far as his build, I've seen Bradford in person, and Rosen isn't a giant, but they don't the same to me, man. They don't.

Bradford is actually bigger

[Poet]

Rosen doesn't look smaller.

Guys, I don't think Baker, and Russell, and Brees, can make it. They small. :D

[MOtorboat]

Rosen doesn't look smaller.

Guys, I don't think Baker, and Russell, and Brees, can make it. They small. :D

Baker won't make it because he sucks.

[Poet]

Damn.

[chazoe60]

Baker won't make it because he sucks.

Man, it's hard to say a dude with that college production sucks.

[Northman]

Man, it's hard to say a dude with that college production sucks.

Well, Tebow did win 2 national championships.

[Cugel]

He doesn't "suck". Nobody with a brain who watched a single game of his would say "he sucks." The question is whether he relies too much on his feet and isn't a good enough passer and at reading defenses to be an elite QB in the NFL. He's also smaller than coaches want, assuming that bigger QBs are more likely to be more durable.

That's a prejudice of GMs whether warranted or not. They still want to draft a guy like Josh Allen, because he's 6'5" 233 lbs rather than Mayfield whom scouts breathed a sigh of relief when he measured out at 6'0" 216 lbs.

NFL Football is a sport where they never heard of "Moneyball" and don't like it. College football is way ahead of their thinking.

[NightTrainLayne]

Baker won't make it because he sucks.

I keep on trying to square your opinion with what I've seen from him the last 3 years, and I can't.

Pat Kirwin the other day on Sirius/XM NFL channel summed up Mayfield along these lines, "Very accurate, can make all the throws, hits the open shoulder, not just gets it to the receiver, but the open shoulder. Can make plays with his feet when protection breaks down, but always keeps his eyes downfield. He's tall enough, I think he'll make a fine NFL QB."

That's a paraphrase, but pretty close to what he had to say. And I have to say I can't find much to disagree with there.

So, I hope we pick him up. I'd much rather develop around him than pay Cousins $30 million. I'll predict that whoever gets Mayfield is getting a true NFL quality starter.

[Poet]

Mo sees a midget bonehead who doesn't have NFL playmaking ability. I don't fault him, though I don't agree or disagree. BM is the ultimate wildcard.

[dogfish]

MO hates baker like a preacher hates sin!

[MOtorboat]

Man, it's hard to say a dude with that college production sucks.

Do you know who Timmy Chang is?

[MOtorboat]

I keep on trying to square your opinion with what I've seen from him the last 3 years, and I can't.

Pat Kirwin the other day on Sirius/XM NFL channel summed up Mayfield along these lines, "Very accurate, can make all the throws, hits the open shoulder, not just gets it to the receiver, but the open shoulder. Can make plays with his feet when protection breaks down, but always keeps his eyes downfield. He's tall enough, I think he'll make a fine NFL QB."

That's a paraphrase, but pretty close to what he had to say. And I have to say I can't find much to disagree with there.

So, I hope we pick him up. I'd much rather develop around him than pay Cousins $30 million. I'll predict that whoever gets Mayfield is getting a true NFL quality starter.

We’ll see. I don’t see it. I see a guy with a crazy good senior season who was a late-round guy six months ago. The only thing that’s changed from then is a playoff berth.

[Northman]

Mo sees a midget bonehead who doesn't have NFL playmaking ability. I don't fault him, though I don't agree or disagree. BM is the ultimate wildcard.

Thats really my only question regarding Mayfield and that is his attitude and immaturity. I just dont want Denver to land another Jay Cutler at this point.

[Broncoknight30]

Thats really my only question regarding Mayfield and that is his attitude and immaturity. I just dont want Denver to land another Jay Cutler at this point.

If anything Mayfield is anti Cutler. I think Mayfield actually has a decent attitude. I see the reactions and listen to what his teammates say. They are all in with him. Poopy Pants Cutler was aloof, and an arrogant know it all pouty spoiled piece of shit.

My problem with Mayfield is his offense that was custom made for him. The Broncos coaching staff has shown the determination to not run these new RPO offenses. I actually think Paxton Lynch could even run that offense with the Broncos. When it is clear that they are not going to do it with Lynch, that means they are not going to do it with anyone. Unless I am missing something here.

My theory as to why NO BIG 12 QB never making it in the NFL is due to the fact that the Big 12 ran a high dosage of those offenses, while the NFL resisted them. Now, it seems that more and more teams are changing. IF the Broncos showed that they willing to run RPO, Mayfield would be intriguing. Then again, I personally think Paxton Lynch could actually run that.

I question if Elway is willing to hire a staff willing to run that.

[Poet]

Poopy Pants Cutler.

Now that is a nickname that sticks.

[slim]

I keep on trying to square your opinion with what I've seen from him the last 3 years, and I can't.

Pat Kirwin the other day on Sirius/XM NFL channel summed up Mayfield along these lines, "Very accurate, can make all the throws, hits the open shoulder, not just gets it to the receiver, but the open shoulder. Can make plays with his feet when protection breaks down, but always keeps his eyes downfield. He's tall enough, I think he'll make a fine NFL QB."

That's a paraphrase, but pretty close to what he had to say. And I have to say I can't find much to disagree with there.

So, I hope we pick him up. I'd much rather develop around him than pay Cousins $30 million. I'll predict that whoever gets Mayfield is getting a true NFL quality starter.

Chooo chooo!!!!

[Freyaka]

Poopy Pants Cutler.

Now that is a nickname that sticks.

I always roll with Mr Curmudgeony Diabetic...

[Poet]

frown cannon

[Northman]

frown cannon

Best one yet.

[Buff]

Von Miller Tries To Woo Kirk Cousins To Denver With Cereal And Rainbows - https://deadspin.com/von-miller-tries-to-woo-kirk-cousins-to-denver-with-cer-1822961185

So since it's ******* February and we won't see any meaningful football for half a year - we may as well speculate wildly about nonsensical things... Any chance that Von knows we're going to be pursuing Kirk and Elway has given him the wink/nod on dialing up the recruiting? Either way, it can't hurt.

[Valar Morghulis]

Von Miller Tries To Woo Kirk Cousins To Denver With Cereal And Rainbows - https://deadspin.com/von-miller-tries-to-woo-kirk-cousins-to-denver-with-cer-1822961185

So since it's ******* February and we won't see any meaningful football for half a year - we may as well speculate wildly about nonsensical things... Any chance that Von knows we're going to be pursuing Kirk and Elway has given him the wink/nod on dialing up the recruiting? Either way, it can't hurt.

yeah - that definitely happened.

i also think they plan to have a mariachi band playing when they take him out for dinner

[Timmy!]

I hope they take him to casa bonita

[Valar Morghulis]

I hope they take him to casa bonita

the titty twister

[Northman]

I hope they take him to casa bonita

I miss that place and taco house as well. Crystals use to be my joint until they tore it down.

[Northman]

the titty twister

Maybe kirk will order the snapfin.

[Cugel]

Rosen is a bust waiting to happen. As I said before he Sam Bradford Frailty wise without Bradford's intangibles and personality. Look at the guy man slight shoulders he's built like an MIT engineer. I know he throws the best ball in the draft. But Kenny work well with other people? For me if I'm doing that. I'm going Sam or Baker.

Well, don't worry about it because Rosen's probably going #2 overall to the Giants and won't be available for the Broncos anyway. Darnold neither.

[Cugel]

Von Miller Tries To Woo Kirk Cousins To Denver With Cereal And Rainbows - https://deadspin.com/von-miller-tries-to-woo-kirk-cousins-to-denver-with-cer-1822961185

So since it's ******* February and we won't see any meaningful football for half a year - we may as well speculate wildly about nonsensical things... Any chance that Von knows we're going to be pursuing Kirk and Elway has given him the wink/nod on dialing up the recruiting? Either way, it can't hurt.

Von is almost certainly doing this on his own, but everybody knows Elway is interested in Cousins. Cousins' agent knows it too. If fans know it, you can be sure agents do. And of course it can't hurt to have Von Miller openly recruiting him. Dude is SB MVP after all. And there are not a lot of defensive players who have won that honor.

[Cugel]

If anything Mayfield is anti Cutler. I think Mayfield actually has a decent attitude. I see the reactions and listen to what his teammates say. They are all in with him. Poopy Pants Cutler was aloof, and an arrogant know it all pouty spoiled piece of shit.

Pouty doesn't describe him. Aloof and unfeeling and unconcerned with fans opinions or anybody's opinion does though. He's the original "I don't give a shit" guy. Anti-leader in the locker-room.

Had so much athletic talent that if you put Peyton's brain in Cutler's body he would have been the greatest QB of all time instead of a nasty piece of work and a disappointment to any team that ever employed him.