The 2018 QB Conundrum

[Ziggy]

I thought I'd make one thread for all of the QB talk. Mods feel free to merge this into another one if you want to.

Right now the Broncos have 3 QB's under contract for the 2018 season. Brock is an UFA. That leaves Lynch, Siemian, and Kelly.

Lynch is uncuttable. He carries a 4.46 million dollar cap hit if he's cut this year. Elway has never strapped this team with a lot of dead cap money. I doubt he even has the ability to, considering the team's finances are run out of a trust fund. Lynch also has no trade value. Siemian carries just a 13k salary cap hit if he's cut. That's certainly an option. Kelly carries a 48k cap hit if he's cut. That's an option as well.

We know that Elway is bringing in a free agent QB. Word is that he wants Cousins. Here are the other free agent QB's on the market:

Drew Brees- Doubt he's leaving N.O. He's too tied into the community and the team is winning again.
Sam Bradford- Injury prone, and 30 years old. He's spent more time in training rooms than on the field in his career.
Jay Cutler- Mmmmmm, yeah
Josh McCown- 38 year old grasping at his last straw
Drew Stanton- 33 year old career backup
Kase Keenum- He's an intriguing possibility after the season he had in Minnesota. 29 years old.
Teddy Bridgewater- He's only 26, and showed signs of being a franchise QB before his injury. I'd love to see Elway take a run at him.
Alex Smith and Eli Manning may both end up on the street, but as of now they're both under contract with their respective teams for the 2018 season.

Out of the possibilities, and assuming Brees stays in New Orleans, I think the Broncos look at taking a QB with the 5th pick of the draft unless they sign Cousins. This is another argument for signing Cousins in my book. You have a known commodity for the next 5 years, he's just now entering his prime, and you can add one heck of a football player with the 5th pick.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I’d like to see Cousins, Kelly, Lynch and a rookie. Let the three younger guys battle for the backup spot, and cut Lynch if he can’t outplay Kelly or the rookie. If he’s not good enough to be a backup then he shouldn’t be wasting a roster spot, cap hit or not; pick up a college FA WR for special teams with that roster spot

[Tned]

I would think it's most likely Cousins or taking a QB in the first round.

I think there is an outside chance they think Lynch is ready and could go for an Alex Smith, Bridgewater, etc. vet as a backup, but the problem being with the QB market being what it is, these guys will still probably get $15-20 a year, so it's not like they are cheap options.

While I wouldn't completely discount Eli if he's on the market, that's unlikely to pay the same dividends that signing his brother did. Also, my money is on NY drafting a QB and letting him sit behind Eli for one or two years.

So, if I was laying odds right now, I say they take a run at Cousins, and if that doesn't work out, they sign a lower tier FA QB and draft a QB in the first round.

[Hawgdriver]

Plan A is all-in on Cousins, plan B is rookie + stopgap.

Brilliant insight I know.

[Rick]

Cousins.

If not Cousins then Bridgewater.

If Option C...

Bradford and a rookie.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Plan A is all-in on Cousins, plan B is rookie + stopgap.

Brilliant insight I know.

How do you feel about smoked gouda?

[Hawgdriver]

How do you feel about smoked gouda?

With your fingers.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

With your fingers.
Well played sir.
Personally, I love Gouda.

[Hawgdriver]

Well played sir.
Personally, I love Gouda.

So good.

[Slick]

The situation sucks. I don't like any of QBs coming out all that much and I don't think Cousins is good enough to warrant being the highest paid player in football either.

Cousins is decent but he isn't some worldie. ~30 mil seems like way to much to be paying that guy.

John whiffing on Oz and Lynch hurts the team badly.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

The situation sucks. I don't like any of QBs coming out all that much and I don't think Cousins is good enough to warrant being the highest paid player in football either.

Cousins is decent but he isn't some worldie. ~30 mil seems like way to much to be paying that guy.

John whiffing on Oz and Lynch hurts the team badly.

I think John whiffing on quarterbacks is greatly overstated.

IMO, his only whiff is Lynch. Siemian is a good pick for where he was drafted. Oz was drafted in the second round, which is a great spot for a viable backup.
He’s also responsible for landing the greatest FA quarterback.

IMO the Lynch pick looks bad at this point, but overall I think his track record with quarterbacks is good

[Slick]

He doesn't really have much of a track record to be considered good. Signing Peyton Manning was a no brainer. Lynch, Siemian and Oz all suck and he even tried to give Oz a pretty big contract before Houston came along.

Imagine Houston never happened. Denver would be paying quite a bit of money to that stiff right now.

[Ziggy]

The situation sucks. I don't like any of QBs coming out all that much and I don't think Cousins is good enough to warrant being the highest paid player in football either.

Cousins is decent but he isn't some worldie. ~30 mil seems like way to much to be paying that guy.

John whiffing on Oz and Lynch hurts the team badly.

The one thing that might save the Broncos this year is that they are coaching the senior bowl. They are going to have a full week with Baker Mayfield, Josh Allen, and probably another prospect. They will know exactly what kind of work ethic they have, an idea of their football IQ, how well they blend into a new environment, and how quickly they can pick up a new system. Not near as much guess work as what usually goes into drafting a QB. It's a near lock that Darnold and Rosen go 1,2.

That leaves the Broncos looking at Mayfield, Jackson, and Allen as possible picks at 5. They should be coaching 2 of the 3. They will also get a great look at Mason Rudolph during the week, a guy I'm very high on after the first.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I posted in the draft forum about this but it was long winded. In summary:

-No “old guys” at the end of their career. No Eli, Brees, etc. not worth wasting time we could be developing someone for the future.
-No journeymen. No Alex Smith (dude is still John Fox at QB) no broken assed Sam Bradford.
-I’m suspicious of Keenum and Bridgewater. I don’t trust either to be a long term answer so I don’t want them. Each has had roughly 1 decent season.

That pretty much leaves Cousins or a trade for Luck if we want a vet. If not, we draft a guy in the first (at 5 or move up if we have to) and start his ass from day 1. I’m fine if we’re not very good next year while our future develops. No more Packin Lunch bullshit where a scrub (****face) gets lots of playing time and our first round rookie sits because we need to try to “win now”. I’m okay being down again next year while we rebuild/reload whatever.

I will be disappointed if we screw this up. We need a QB more than any other position and have the #5 overall pick. If we sign Alex Smith or Eli or Bridgewater and draft a guard at #5 I will be furious.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

He doesn't really have much of a track record to be considered good. Signing Peyton Manning was a no brainer. Lynch, Siemian and Oz all suck and he even tried to give Oz a pretty big contract before Houston came along.

Imagine Houston never happened. Denver would be paying quite a bit of money to that stiff right now.

As I said before, a viable backup is worth a second round pick. I agree giving him a giant contract would have been disastrous, although I’m persuaded he would have played better in his second year under Kubes than Siemian did, and we probably would have made the playoffs.
Signing Manning was a no brainer but it wasn’t as if Manning showed up his front door begging for a job. Elway provided a better pitch than numerous teams vying for his services, which Elway should get credit for

[Cugel]

]Right now the Broncos have 3 QB's under contract for the 2018 season. Brock is an UFA. That leaves Lynch, Siemian, and Kelly.

Lynch is uncuttable. He carries a 4.46 million dollar cap hit if he's cut this year. Elway has never strapped this team with a lot of dead cap money. I doubt he even has the ability to, considering the team's finances are run out of a trust fund. Lynch also has no trade value. Siemian carries just a 13k salary cap hit if he's cut. That's certainly an option. Kelly carries a 48k cap hit if he's cut. That's an option as well.

There is no reason to cut Lynch at this point, unless Chad Kelly impresses them enough that they decide to go with him as their developmental #3 scout team QB. No reason to incur a cap hit in other words. That cap hit probably means that Chad Kelly is going elsewhere this coming season, because they are not keeping 4 QBs on the 53 man roster. Rookie draft pick + veteran FA signing = 2. There's room for one more: Lynch or Kelly.

We all know who the fans will want. Who the Broncos will want is another question. It's decision time for Paxton, and despite the cap hit, I see them cutting him in the off-season if he gets beat out by Kelly in the pre-season.

[Cugel]

As for Kirk Cousins, he just announced he believes that the Redskins "are now all in on re-signing" him. What that means: the Redskins will not let Cousins go without a fight. They will attempt to negotiate a reasonable contract, possibly in the $26-27m range. The $ range is pure speculation on my part, but they would want their initial offer to be considered reasonable by the Cousins camp.

Obviously, he will get a lot more than that, but it starts the ball rolling. They could come in lower than that, but this would risk insulting him again, after they did that very thing to him last year - which led to their current impasse.

Also, Cousins has indicated that he will take other offers (well, duh!) in order to test the market and see what other teams will offer. The Redskins can either use the transition tag, or else just enter into FA negotiations directly with Cousins' agent like everybody else. Since he's technically still under contract until the start of the FA period in March, they can make any offer to him they want, and get him locked up BEFORE the start of FA.

If they fail at this (likely) then he solicits other offers. If they transition tag him they will have the right to match. If not they will try and match anyway in order to retain him.

Alternatively, they could franchise him at $34.6m and then start serious negotiations on a contract to supplant the franchise tag amount: i.e. something similar to what he could get from another team as an UFA.

Not certain what that would be, but obviously any team that wants to steal Cousins away from the Redskins is going to have a fight on their hands. That means a bidding war. And the only way the other team will win is if they have more CASH MONEY than the Redskins can afford to pay.

It's exactly like two poker players trying to out-bid each other. In that situation the guy with the most chips always wins if he is willing to go all-in.

In this exact scenario: John Elway v. Dan Snyder, mano-a-mano for all the marbles. Winner walks away with Kirk Cousins. Loser gets to eat dirt.

Washington Redskins Under the Cap Room 2018: (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/)

9th- Washington Redskins active roster: $131,956,703 Dead Cap $: $462,606 Adjustments from previous year: $1,834,575 Total cap room: $45,415,266

16th- Denver Broncos active roster: $162,806,487 Dead Cap $: $365,909 Adjustments from previous year: $11,421,189 Total Cap Room: $24,248,793*

*I am ignoring their "top 51 players" category, since that is meaningless. What matters is total players under contract.

[aberdien]

How my feeble mind sees things:

-Draftable QBs aren't that great. Rosen maybe, Falk maybe, but the others don't look like they are worth a high first round pick. But we will certainly be drafting a QB, hopefully one that has a brain and can throw a football.
-I do not want to get Eli or Brees. Let's move on from these old ass QBs who will only last 2 or 3 years. We have gotten all the water we can from that well.
-It looks like Cousins is gonna get a big contract, and I don't think he's worth fighting for to be paid as much as it looks like he will be paid.
-I would be ok with Alex Smith as a placeholder while we figure out the long term situation, ie our draft pick.
-Of the young guys, Bridgewater is the most interesting to me. I would love to get him to continue his development.
-If we are going to write off 2018-19 season already, then I think we should get Cutler. That would be hilarious to see play out.

Ideally I would like to go into next season with Bridgewater, Kelly, and Falk. I wouldn't mind getting Cousins as long as we aren't sacrificing other parts of the team for him. It wouldn't be the end of the world if we kept Oz as our veteran backup instead of picking up one of the veteran options, but he's shown his ceiling and we better have somebody on the roster who we think is gonna be the future.

[Tned]

Compounding the problem is that fixing the O-line is as big, or bigger problem than QB. If they don't fix that line, no rookie QB is going to be successful, and veteran QBs are going to struggle to get the team to the playoffs.

While I'm not convinced on Cousins, it's the reason that signing Cousins and drafting a G or T early in the first is probably the best option for the team.

They need major upgrades at LG and RT if they want to be competitive.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Compounding the problem is that fixing the O-line is as big, or bigger problem than QB. If they don't fix that line, no rookie QB is going to be successful, and veteran QBs are going to struggle to get the team to the playoffs.

While I'm not convinced on Cousins, it's the reason that signing Cousins and drafting a G or T early in the first is probably the best option for the team.

They need major upgrades at LG and RT if they want to be competitive.

McGovern is a capable starter at RG which means we could move Leary back to his natural position LG. IMO, we are one T away from having a quality starting line. I could be wrong, but I believe quarterback is a much bigger problem.

[Tned]

McGovern is a capable starter at RT which means we could move Leary back to his natural position LG. IMO, we are one T away from having a quality starting line. I could be wrong, but I believe quarterback is a much bigger problem.

In the sense it's harder to find a good QB, yes. In terms of no rookie QB, and few vets are going to succeed behind the last three years lines, maybe not.

[UnderArmour]

Ironically, Jay Cutler is probably the best 1 year "stopgap" option available. I don't see the defense or the locker room rallying around a Josh McCown as a stop gap, but Cutler just might be able to keep a rookie on the bench for a month or two while they get up to snuff. I do not want Alex Smith.

If Kirk does come here, it's because he feels like Washington is dysfunctional and Elway manages to convince him he can win here. It would be a major coup, and enable us to trade back in one of the deeper O-Line and RB drafts.

[Cugel]

Buoyed by NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport's Saturday report that the Chiefs are open to trading Smith during the offseason, Kansas City should be expected to attempt to deal the quarterback to a team flush with space -- Cleveland, for example, though the Browns aren't alone -- and would likely only release Smith if the Chiefs can't find a suitor. Considering these numbers, Chiefs general manager Brett Veach might not have a ton of leverage -- even with a hotter-than-usual quarterback market forming -- but it seems likely Smith won't be back in 2018.

So, the Chiefs are going to try and bluff everybody into making an offer for Alex Smith, but since he's due $20m next season, they have Pat Mahomes, they just lost in round 1 again under Smith, they are going to release him if nobody offers them a viable trade.

And they would have to trade him to a team that has the cap room to absorb his contract. He's actually getting $17.7m not counting the pro-rated portion of his 5 year deal. So, he won't accept a deal for less than around $18m and will want the total $20m.

I don't know if teams will agree to pay Smith that, which would mean that he'll be released rather than traded. So, if the Broncos wanted him they could probably wait and see if they cut Smith and then try and sign him.

The playoff loss wasn't on Alex Smith. He played generally well and didn't turn the ball over.

[nevcraw]

I'm all in on a rookie QB @ 5 unless they can get Brees (which seems almost impossible). hopefully we will not be drafting at this spot again anytime soon, so time to rebuild for real.
Cousins is too expensive and no one else is really a viable FA. there are a few options in this years draft that will pan out Elway just needs to pick the right one this time and not the other guy. His whiffing on Oz hurt most and cost the most time to get back to competitive football.

[Rick]

Not saying WE should get Smith but he is a productive QB with little injury history. He deserves 20m from somebody.

[Cugel]

Not saying WE should get Smith but he is a productive QB with little injury history. He deserves 20m from somebody.

What are you his agent? :laugh:

Yes, he will get somewhere around $20m from somebody. Probably not the Broncos since the Chefs won't trade him in the division. That wouldn't go down well in KC.

Step 1: Trade him to the Broncos. Step 2: The Broncos then win the division, with Smith beating them in the process. Step 3: Chefs fans riot and burn things down.

You can see why they won't be eager to do this.

[broncofaninfla]

I don't get the love for Cousins. I'd say he's a starter at best who's already hit his ceiling. He also has a buttload of INTs and not a single playoff win to his resume. Add to that they would have to pay him more than Manning made when in reality he isn't a fraction of the QB manning was. I look for Smith to be cut from the Chiefs and I think he's be a perfect QB at this stage for the Broncos. It would allow them to draft a true BPA impact player at the 5 spot and address some of the many holes this team clearly has.

[Shazam!]

I don't get the love for Cousins. I'd say he's a starter at best who's already hit his ceiling. He also has a buttload of INTs and not a single playoff win to his resume. Add to that they would have to pay him more than Manning made when in reality he isn't a fraction of the QB manning was. I look for Smith to be cut from the Chiefs and I think he's be a perfect QB at this stage for the Broncos. It would allow them to draft a true BPA impact player at the 5 spot and address some of the many holes this team clearly has.

Amen. Too much money committed to Von, Cousins is way too expensive. Draft a QB in the first Rd.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

If Smith is so good, why is he getting bounced from his second team in favor of an unproven understudy QB? Because that QB, and his backup in SF, provided more playmaking ability. Smith is an over-conservative loser. For the last several years he’s been seen as that stopgap to get you from one real QB to the next. I’ve seen too many games where Smith has struggled to score points or to come from behind.

If we’re gonna sign a vet, he needs to be the guy who can lead us to a Super Bowl and be here long term (>5 years). If we’re not gonna do that, draft a QB and start him from day 1 so he can grow to be that guy. Quit this band-aid QB bullshit. Also, there’s zero guarantee Smith will be much cheaper than Cousins. He’s already making $17m next year, but if he’s traded it will probably a trade and sign deal (a deal with his new team is already worked out at the time of the trade) and he’ll command over $20M.

Last but not least, the Chefs gave up 2 2nds for him. He’ll command at least a second rounder if not a first this time in a trade too. KC wants to trade him to play Mahomes and get picks doing it, but they don’t have to. I doubt they'll cut him. They can afford to wait until after the draft and trade him to one of the teams that didn’t grab a QB. He’ll either be traded before or after the draft. I don’t see a way he gets cut.

[Cugel]

Cousins.

If not Cousins then Bridgewater.

If Option C...

Bradford and a rookie.

I'm agreeing more and more with this the more I look at it.

Option B would potentially be Case Keenum if the Vikings dump him instead of Teddy Bridgewater.

Option C would be hope that Alex Smith becomes a FA. That could be if nobody is willing to take Alex Smith's $20m contract off the Chef's hands. But, they are not trading him within the division so he's unlikely to wind up here.

Option D would probably be Bradford or Josh McCown and possibly move up in the draft and try and get one of the top 2 QBs, perhaps Sam Darnold if the Browns don't draft him. If they can't move up or don't want to pay the price, then probably Josh Allen or Baker Mayfield or Lamar Jackson.

Personally, I haven't seen anything good about those three, but I'm not a big college football fan so I don't have much opinion on them.

If the Broncos sign Cousins, then they probably don't bother with drafting a QB in the first 2 rounds, but if it's Bridgewater or Keenum and certainly if it's Alex Smith or Josh McCown or Sam Bradford, then they are drafting a QB early. Perhaps not at #5, but in the first round.,

[Cugel]

If Smith is so good, why is he getting bounced from his second team in favor of an unproven understudy QB? Because that QB, and his backup in SF, provided more playmaking ability. Smith is an over-conservative loser. For the last several years he’s been seen as that stopgap to get you from one real QB to the next. I’ve seen too many games where Smith has struggled to score points or to come from behind.


Well, it's probably academic since the Chefs are totally unlikely to trade Smith within the division, but, you really go off the rails here:


here’s zero guarantee Smith will be much cheaper than Cousins. He’s already making $17m next year, but if he’s traded it will probably a trade and sign deal (a deal with his new team is already worked out at the time of the trade) and he’ll command over $20M.

Muhahahahahahaha! :laugh:

Alex Smith is about $10m a year cheaper than Kirk Cousins. Kirk Cousins is the new hotness. Alex Smith is the old stankness. Kirk Cousins is the blazing hot young supermodel wife. Alex Smith is "the old ball and chain."

Smith might get $20m because that's what he's due next season and he's unlikely to accept less after the season he's had.

But, he's not a $30m Qb, or a $29m QB either. So, there's a big difference. I don't even know anybody who has $10m, so that's rather a lot of money! He might be worth $20m but certainly NOT anything like $30m! So, he's nowhere near Kirk Cousins range!


Last but not least, the Chefs gave up 2 2nds for him. He’ll command at least a second rounder if not a first this time in a trade too. KC wants to trade him to play Mahomes and get picks doing it, but they don’t have to. I doubt they'll cut him. They can afford to wait until after the draft and trade him to one of the teams that didn’t grab a QB. He’ll either be traded before or after the draft. I don’t see a way he gets cut.

This part is right. They will try and trade him for a 2nd rounder, or they might even ask for a 1st rounder (asking's not getting). But, with all the other QBs on the market, what teams are going to be willing to give up a 2nd round pick for Alex Smith? Probably not many.

The Cleveland Browns have been talked about as the top landing spot for Alex Smith, but their 2nd round pick is #33. They would have to be seriously stupid to give up that pick for Smith, considering they are drafting a QB with the #1 pick. They would be unable to improve their garbage team in the draft if they used two of their top 3 picks on Qbs!

Unless some other team offers a 2nd I'm betting that a 3rd rounder is about the best the Chefs will get, and they might not get that. Alex Smith is 33 now and some team might get a few years out of him. But, nobody really thinks you can just roll to a SB with Alex Smith. He's not that kind of QB.

So, any team that takes him will also seek a long term answer at QB. He's a "sign and draft a QB" guy, not a sign and forget about it for 10 years, which is what teams want.

[Cugel]

Amen. Too much money committed to Von, Cousins is way too expensive. Draft a QB in the first Rd.

If they don't land Cousins they will certainly do that anyway. I'd be surprised if Elway is willing to pay a QB $30m when that QB isn't really worth as much as Drew Brees, but is paid more than him. And paid more than Roethlisberger, Brady, Manning, Luck, and every other QB who ever played.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

As our season is already far over and we’re dancing in the schadenfreude of folly from our division rivals jokes.

The QB is where it is at in the NFL and as we get ready to embark on a new era for the Denver Broncos, I feel it is a good idea to take a look back at one of the more polarizing disappointments for the Broncos in recent years: Paxton Lynch.

His saga isn’t even over, but it sure feels that way to me.

A look back

rest - https://www.milehighreport.com/2018/1/9/16867066/paxton-lynch-bust

[Rick]

Everyone keeps talking about the big names but almost no-one is talking about Mccarron, anyone know what is going on with that?

Last I heard he was in a fight with the Bengals over whether his 1st year should essentially count as a red shirt making him a RFA or if he is a UFA.

Not saying we get him...but he is another guy that would probably get paid on potential by someone.

[Tned]

Everyone keeps talking about the big names but almost no-one is talking about McMaron, anyone know what is going on with that?

Last I heard he was in a fight with the Bengals over whether his 1st year should essentially count as a red shirt making him a RFA or if he is a UFA.

Not saying we get him...but he is another guy that would probably get paid on potential by someone.

When you see what Osweiller got and what Cassel and even Flynn got a few years back, then yea, I could see Mccarron getting a decent payday.

The ruling on whether the Bengals stashed him on NFI, when he wasn't too injured to play and cost him a year of service, will be very interesting. That could have far reaching consequences.

[Rick]

When you see what Osweiller got and what Cassel and even Flynn got a few years back, then yea, I could see Mccarron getting a decent payday.

The ruling on whether the Bengals stashed him on NFI, when he wasn't too injured to play and cost him a year of service, will be very interesting. That could have far reaching consequences.

Fixed his name, thanks :)

I wonder if that ruling will be looked at with Kelly down the road if he turns into anything at all. Was he REALLY to hurt to play before we sat him down for the rest of the year or did we just stash him...

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I'm agreeing more and more with this the more I look at it.

Option B would potentially be Case Keenum if the Vikings dump him instead of Teddy Bridgewater.

Option C would be hope that Alex Smith becomes a FA. That could be if nobody is willing to take Alex Smith's $20m contract off the Chef's hands. But, they are not trading him within the division so he's unlikely to wind up here.

Option D would probably be Bradford or Josh McCown and possibly move up in the draft and try and get one of the top 2 QBs, perhaps Sam Darnold if the Browns don't draft him. If they can't move up or don't want to pay the price, then probably Josh Allen or Baker Mayfield or Lamar Jackson.

Personally, I haven't seen anything good about those three, but I'm not a big college football fan so I don't have much opinion on them.

If the Broncos sign Cousins, then they probably don't bother with drafting a QB in the first 2 rounds, but if it's Bridgewater or Keenum and certainly if it's Alex Smith or Josh McCown or Sam Bradford, then they are drafting a QB early. Perhaps not at #5, but in the first round.,

I can’t see a single scenario where the Vikings keep Bridgewater over Keenum. Keenum took them to the playoffs. Keenum’s single season stats this year are almost as good as Bridgewaters for 2 seasons. Keenum: 22 TDs, 7 Ints. Bridgewater (‘14 & ‘15) 28 TDs (14 in each season) and 22 Ints.

It’s one of the reasons I don’t know why guys are high on Teddy. Especially coming off major knee surgery. He’s the biggest risk of any potential FA QB/trade bait. Frankly, I’d rather get Tyrod Taylor (yuck) than Teddy B.

[Tned]

Fixed his name, thanks :)

I wonder if that ruling will be looked at with Kelly down the road if he turns into anything at all. Was he REALLY to hurt to play before we sat him down for the rest of the year or did we just stash him...

I didn't know about the mccarron UFA issue until your post and then just found a couple articles and read them. I immediately also thought about how that might effect Kelly, or even Butt, if they turned into something.

[Dreadnought]

I can’t see a single scenario where the Vikings keep Bridgewater over Keenum. Keenum took them to the playoffs. Keenum’s single season stats this year are almost as good as Bridgewaters for 2 seasons. Keenum: 22 TDs, 7 Ints. Bridgewater (‘14 & ‘15) 28 TDs (14 in each season) and 22 Ints.

It’s one of the reasons I don’t know why guys are high on Teddy. Especially coming off major knee surgery. He’s the biggest risk of any potential FA QB/trade bait. Frankly, I’d rather get Tyrod Taylor (yuck) than Teddy B.

Totally agreed on Bridgewater. Where you and I part company is my ideal guy is Alex Smith. Its not on Smith that the Chefs can't hold a big lead; Smith got them the lead after all (yes, I know, simplistic) and he he can't help it that Andy Reid sucks. I always thought Smith was a classic late bloomer, got shafted by SF, and has been drastically underappreciated for the past half dozen years.

We can't afford to waste the draft pick on another dud QB, so much so I'd rather roll with our current dud QB's than waste a #5 adding to our inventory

[Tned]

Totally agreed on Bridgewater. Where you and I part company is my ideal guy is Alex Smith. Its not on Smith that the Chefs can't hold a big lead; Smith got them the lead after all (yes, I know, simplistic) and he he can't help it that Andy Reid sucks. I always thought Smith was a classic late bloomer, got shafted by SF, and has been drastically underappreciated for the past half dozen years.

We can't afford to waste the draft pick on another dud QB, so much so I'd rather roll with our current dud QB's than waste a #5 adding to our inventory

Smith had a pretty impressive year, especially for a guy that supposedly couldn't go deep.

He was number one, by a country mile, in deep passing. His 131 rating on passes thrown (in the air) 20+ yards was 28 points higher than the closest, and his 12 TDs on deep passes was only equaled by Russel Wilson, but Wilson had 5 INTs on deep passes to Smith's 1 INT.

Smith's 1344 deep passing yards first to Staffords 1136 in second place.

Smith's 56.5% accuracy rating was first, with Brees coming in 2nd at 52.5%.

Maybe a combination of experience and getting some good weapons around him, showed Smith can lead top tier passing game (3rd ranked passing offense).

[VonDoom]

Everyone keeps talking about the big names but almost no-one is talking about Mccarron, anyone know what is going on with that?

Last I heard he was in a fight with the Bengals over whether his 1st year should essentially count as a red shirt making him a RFA or if he is a UFA.

Not saying we get him...but he is another guy that would probably get paid on potential by someone.

I think a decision on McCarron's status is supposed to be in by 2/15, so that will answer some questions.

Honestly, though, I'm not sure why his name keeps coming up. I guess it's because people can assume he's good until he actually has to play for a long period of time. I remember people saying this same kind of thing about Glennon for a few years. I liked the small sample I saw from McCarron, but I suspect that anyone who thinks he's their QBOTF is setting themselves up for failure (which is probably why the Browns were so interested in him)

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Totally agreed on Bridgewater. Where you and I part company is my ideal guy is Alex Smith. Its not on Smith that the Chefs can't hold a big lead; Smith got them the lead after all (yes, I know, simplistic) and he he can't help it that Andy Reid sucks. I always thought Smith was a classic late bloomer, got shafted by SF, and has been drastically underappreciated for the past half dozen years.

We can't afford to waste the draft pick on another dud QB, so much so I'd rather roll with our current dud QB's than waste a #5 adding to our inventory

For me, it’s the simple fact that he seems to wear out his welcome. If he was all that and a bag of chips, the 49ers wouldn’t have replaced him with Kaepernick (who took them to a Super Bowl) and now KC with Mahomes. To me, that’s a huge red flag. Combine that with the fact that I’ve watched him vs us 2x per year and in last year’s Playoff game vs Pittsburgh and he stunk on ice. It wasn’t until this year he did well, the year that they drafted his replacement, that he becomes a top passer. It’s bullshit. It’s a ruse.

Combine that with the fact that he’s 33 and has zero chance of being our “franchise” guy and it’s a hard pass for me. It has nothing to do with him being a Chef.

[Rick]

I think a decision on McCarron's status is supposed to be in by 2/15, so that will answer some questions.

Honestly, though, I'm not sure why his name keeps coming up. I guess it's because people can assume he's good until he actually has to play for a long period of time. I remember people saying this same kind of thing about Glennon for a few years. I liked the small sample I saw from McCarron, but I suspect that anyone who thinks he's their QBOTF is setting themselves up for failure (which is probably why the Browns were so interested in him)

I agree and I think the same about Kenum personally.

Someone will e over paying for both of these guys this year based on very limited success, ala Brock/Flynn.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

The real question is, who here is willing to offer the #5 overall pick to Indy for Luck, knowing he has a throwing shoulder injury that he just missed a season for. Would anyone here take that risk for that potential reward? 2 top 5 picks could really help Indy get better fast.

[Buff]

The real question is, who here is willing to offer the #5 overall pick to Indy for Luck, knowing he has a throwing shoulder injury that he just missed a season for. Would anyone here take that risk for that potential reward? 2 top 5 picks could really help Indy get better fast.

Of course we would give up the #5 pick. But they would also require another 1st rounder, on top of that, probably... Or a 2nd rounder and a handful of other picks in addition to #5. And we would gladly pay all of those prices too.

But I don't understand why we continue to speculate on Luck. He is not available. He never was available. We may as well talk about bringing in Russell Wilson or Carson Wentz too.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Of course we would give up the #5 pick. But they would also require another 1st rounder, on top of that, probably... Or a 2nd rounder and a handful of other picks in addition to #5. And we would gladly pay all of those prices too.

But I don't understand why we continue to speculate on Luck. He is not available. He never was available. We may as well talk about bringing in Russell Wilson or Carson Wentz too.

This is a completely different scenario. Indy sucks badly. They pretty much need a complete rebuild. Irsay was dumb enough to let Peyton go (for nothing) after he missed a year with injury. Luck is a risk. I think Elway should just take Irsay on a coke and booze bender and get him to sign Luck’s rights over for the #5 overall pick. It could happen... any player can be traded. No player is truly “unavailable”.

[Rick]

Absolutely NOT going to happen...but in this dream scenario I absolutely would do the deal and more.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

rest - https://www.milehighreport.com/2018/1/9/16867066/paxton-lynch-bust

Ouch, there’s not much to add to that. The portray him as a kid still stuck in high school who hasn’t grown up.

[Cugel]

This is a completely different scenario. Indy sucks badly. They pretty much need a complete rebuild. Irsay was dumb enough to let Peyton go (for nothing) after he missed a year with injury. Luck is a risk. I think Elway should just take Irsay on a coke and booze bender and get him to sign Luck’s rights over for the #5 overall pick. It could happen... any player can be traded. No player is truly “unavailable”.

Maybe in Madden. Not in real life though. They ain't trading Andrew Luck to Denver. Not in a million years. Irsay is not fond of Elway. Those five SBs and 2 SB Championships? From his perspective the Colts were cheated out of all that because Elway refused to play for them, and actually was working out in the Yankees minor league farm team, indicating he could walk away from Football and take up baseball. That forced the trade to Denver which was one of the most one-sided in NFL history.

They haven't forgotten that in the Irsay family.

[Ziggy]

This is a completely different scenario. Indy sucks badly. They pretty much need a complete rebuild. Irsay was dumb enough to let Peyton go (for nothing) after he missed a year with injury. Luck is a risk. I think Elway should just take Irsay on a coke and booze bender and get him to sign Luck’s rights over for the #5 overall pick. It could happen... any player can be traded. No player is truly “unavailable”.

You're forgetting that Manning was 35 years old, coming off of his fourth neck surgery, unable to even throw at the time, and the fact that the Colts had the first pick in the draft with the highest rated QB prospect to come out since Manning. Luck is 28 years old. The word on the street is that he will be ready to go for the start of the 2018 season. Luck isn't getting traded.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Ask Broncos veterans and they’ll tell you that John Elway is primed for a free-agency splash this offseason.

Inside linebacker Brandon Marshall was a guest on NFL Network’s “Total Access” on Thursday and, in agreement with others in the Broncos’ locker room, said he expects his general manager to pursue a veteran quarterback in the coming months.

“In my opinion, we already drafted a quarterback, first round a couple years ago, so we’ve tried that,” Marshall said. “I think he’s going to get a free-agent quarterback. I think he’s going to go spend some money and fix the position, because it’s kind of a toss-up with these rookie quarterbacks. You never know. But the only thing about getting a free-agent quarterback is some guys will have to go. I hope everybody gets to stay, but that’s just the business.”

rest - https://www.denverpost.com/2018/01/11/brandon-marshall-qb-free-agency-john-elway-kirk-cousins/

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Brandon just doesn’t know when to shut his pie hole.

[dogfish]

Brandon just doesn’t know when to shut his pie hole.

probably true-- i don't think he exactly gave away any top secret info here, though. . .

[Poet]

He's the man and one of the all-time great Broncos.

[Shazam!]

If because the Draft pick didn't work out, veteran Sanchez couldnt beat out Siemien. Just saying.

I do think Trevor could have possibly been a serviceable starter but he got PTSD and possible bran damage from the beating he took behind a horrible OLine amd awful playcalling.

Now, I believe it is not lack of talent as to why the Oline is ****ed up, I believe it was errors in scheme and stubborness of playcalling that did not put our guys in the best position to be successful.

[Ziggy]

I hope Elway goes all in on a vet. I love the Duke as much as anyone, but when has he shown us that he has any ability what so ever to competently evaluate a rookie QB correctly?

Brock- Bust- though he could become a competent backup in the NFL
Paxton- Bust
Dysert- Bust
Siemian- possible back up caliber going forward, and let's not forget that by all accounts he was Kube's pick.

[Rick]

Dysert was a seventh rounder. hard to be a bust.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Andy Staples
‏Verified account @Andy_Staples
2h2 hours ago

Interesting thing @SeniorBowlPhil just told me and @HorowitzJason on @ESPNUonSiriusXM: The Broncos staff requested that Baker Mayfield be placed on their team at the Senior Bowl.

[Rick]

Surprised they are allowed to do that.

[Ziggy]

Dysert was a seventh rounder. hard to be a bust.

Fair enough. We can take him and Siemian out of the equation then. That leaves a first and second round bust for Elway at QB.

[Rick]

Fair enough. We can take him and Siemian out of the equation then. That leaves a first and second round bust for Elway at QB.

I buy that.

[slim]

Fair enough. We can take him and Siemian out of the equation then. That leaves a first and second round bust for Elway at QB.

The success rate league wide has to be less than 15%. I think you may need to adjust your expectations.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

He's the man and one of the all-time great Broncos.
That’s the other BM

[dogfish]

That’s the other BM

neither brandon marshall is close to an all-time great bronco-- i assumed he must be talking about someone else. . .


:confused:

[Cugel]

Everyone keeps talking about the big names but almost no-one is talking about Mccarron, anyone know what is going on with that?

Last I heard he was in a fight with the Bengals over whether his 1st year should essentially count as a red shirt making him a RFA or if he is a UFA.

Not saying we get him...but he is another guy that would probably get paid on potential by someone.

The legal dispute is about when he is a UFA or a RFA. The question is whether time he spent on injury settlement tolled (delayed) his tenure as a QB, thus giving him less time served in the NFL, and therefore not eligible to become a UFA. Instead, the Bengals are contending that he's still a restricted FA, so they could give him a 1st round franchise tag (expected) and then deal his rights to some team. Any team that signed him would have to give up a #1 pick, but in practice this means some team would likely engage in negotiations with the Bengals and offer something less than that.

Perhaps a second round pick or even a 3rd rounder. The Bengals would probably not get a first rounder because other teams would know they have no intention of paying AJ McCarron AND Andy Dalton big QB money. Dalton is still the starter and they are apparently not considering replacing him with McCarron, so they have to deal him.

That severely limits their negotiating leverage. They will thus get something for McCarron in this scenario, but not a 1st rounder.

His contention is that the time he spent injured should be included as time served in the NFL and thus he's eligible for FA. Some experts think he has a decent chance before an arbiter of proving his point.

However, this is all academic to the Broncos. He's not coming here.

[Cugel]

The thing about AJ McCarron is this: unless John Elway is convinced that McCarron is the answer and QB and is willing to forego using his #5 pick on a QB, McCarron will have no incentive to sign here. He wants to be given the starting job, and not have to compete with a top 10 rookie QB, whom the team would be under intense public scrutiny and pressure to play, because of how much draft capital they invested in him, that as soon as the rookie was ready, he would probably supplant McCarron.

At least that's what the NFL team that drafted him would be hoping (like the Broncos were hoping that Paxton Lynch would beat out Trevor for the starting job last year).

So, McCarron won't want to come here if Elway is planning to use his #5 pick on a QB - and he is.

The Broncos would not be willing to forego using their high draft pick on a QB if there is one they like available, and more to the point, they would be unwilling to guarantee to McCarron's agent that they were intending to sign McCarron to a long term deal and not get another QB to compete with him.

The Denver beat writers insist that the only QB Elway is likely to consider giving up the #5 pick for would be Kirk Cousins in the unlikely event the Redskins were willing to trade him. That would preclude them from taking a top 10 QB of course.

Since some teams are undoubtedly willing to commit to McCarron long term so he wouldn't be willing to come here unless Elway were willing to do the same. Of course the Broncos might trade for him but this is impractical if he doesn't want to come here.

In that case not only would he NOT mentor the Broncos rookie QB, but he would also refuse to re-sign with Denver, so they would be trading a 2nd round pick, say, for his rights for a year or two. You can't have a QB in the locker-room who really doesn't want to be there. It can't be good for leadership to have a disgruntled starting QB.

[Poet]

neither brandon marshall is close to an all-time great bronco-- i assumed he must be talking about someone else. . .


:confused:

That's like, your opinion, man.

[MOtorboat]

Andy Staples
‏Verified account @Andy_Staples
2h2 hours ago

Interesting thing @SeniorBowlPhil just told me and @HorowitzJason on @ESPNUonSiriusXM: The Broncos staff requested that Baker Mayfield be placed on their team at the Senior Bowl.

Sigh.

[Cugel]

If because the Draft pick didn't work out, veteran Sanchez couldnt beat out Siemien. Just saying.

I do think Trevor could have possibly been a serviceable starter but he got PTSD and possible bran damage from the beating he took behind a horrible OLine amd awful playcalling.

Now, I believe it is not lack of talent as to why the Oline is ****ed up, I believe it was errors in scheme and stubborness of playcalling that did not put our guys in the best position to be successful.

He also sucked pretty bad. :coffee:

True, he didn't have much help, but he also threw a bunch of picks.

[Poet]

Sigh.

He ain't got no talent.

[Cugel]

Sigh.

Dude, that just means that the Broncos are interested in coaching all the top QB prospects, especially those they have a chance of drafting: Baker Mayfield, Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. The Browns are expected to draft Sam Darnold because he said he has no objection to going to Cleveland, while Josh Rosen said he doesn't want to go there.

The Giants are expected to take Rosen, because Eli is nearing the end of his career, and was benched by Ben McAdoo (causing McAdoo's firing). Neither Browns nor Giants are expected to be willing to trade those picks.

That leaves the Colts who don't need a QB at #3, followed by the Browns again (from Texans' #4 pick) then Denver. So, barring a trade (possible) Denver will have it's choice of any QB other than the top 2.

[Cugel]

I don't think the Colts or Browns will be able to trade those picks to a QB hungry team. It's possible, but a move up to get Allen, Jackson or Mayfield? Those dudes might not turn out to be that great, and then you'd be the NY Jets trading up to #5 or whatever to get Mark Sanchez! Not a great moment in Jets history.

So, I think the Broncos will be set at #5 to take whoever they like outside Darnold or Rosen. Could be wrong of course, some desperate team might fall in love with Josh Allen or something and trade up to ensure they grab him ahead of the Broncos (assuming they liked him).

[Rick]

The legal dispute is about when he is a UFA or a RFA. The question is whether time he spent on injury settlement tolled (delayed) his tenure as a QB, thus giving him less time served in the NFL, and therefore not eligible to become a UFA. Instead, the Bengals are contending that he's still a restricted FA, so they could give him a 1st round franchise tag (expected) and then deal his rights to some team. Any team that signed him would have to give up a #1 pick, but in practice this means some team would likely engage in negotiations with the Bengals and offer something less than that.

Perhaps a second round pick or even a 3rd rounder. The Bengals would probably not get a first rounder because other teams would know they have no intention of paying AJ McCarron AND Andy Dalton big QB money. Dalton is still the starter and they are apparently not considering replacing him with McCarron, so they have to deal him.

That severely limits their negotiating leverage. They will thus get something for McCarron in this scenario, but not a 1st rounder.

His contention is that the time he spent injured should be included as time served in the NFL and thus he's eligible for FA. Some experts think he has a decent chance before an arbiter of proving his point.

However, this is all academic to the Broncos. He's not coming here.

It isn't even remotely NON academic to the Broncos. If another team were to trade/sign him then it could be a team that is not in play for a QB meaning one less team the Broncos have to contend with.

[MOtorboat]

Dude, that just means that the Broncos are interested in coaching all the top QB prospects, especially those they have a chance of drafting: Baker Mayfield, Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. The Browns are expected to draft Sam Darnold because he said he has no objection to going to Cleveland, while Josh Rosen said he doesn't want to go there.

The Giants are expected to take Rosen, because Eli is nearing the end of his career, and was benched by Ben McAdoo (causing McAdoo's firing). Neither Browns nor Giants are expected to be willing to trade those picks.

That leaves the Colts who don't need a QB at #3, followed by the Browns again (from Texans' #4 pick) then Denver. So, barring a trade (possible) Denver will have it's choice of any QB other than the top 2.

I have no faith in their quarterback evaluation skills.

[dogfish]

I don't think the Colts or Browns will be able to trade those picks to a QB hungry team. It's possible, but a move up to get Allen, Jackson or Mayfield? Those dudes might not turn out to be that great, and then you'd be the NY Jets trading up to #5 or whatever to get Mark Sanchez! Not a great moment in Jets history.

So, I think the Broncos will be set at #5 to take whoever they like outside Darnold or Rosen. Could be wrong of course, some desperate team might fall in love with Josh Allen or something and trade up to ensure they grab him ahead of the Broncos (assuming they liked him).

i think that's largely accurate. . . of course, the problem is that none of mayfield/allen/jackson is worth the #5 pick anymore than they're worth #3 or 4. . . we'll be reaching our arms off if we can't trade back, or trade back into the tail end of the 1st for one of them. . . teams do dumb things when they don't have QBs. . . it's a real challenge for elway and co. to stay disciplined, rather than ignoring everything else until that glaring need is filled. . . that's part of the appeal of going after kirk cousins, which i absolutely believe is their first choice. . .

[dogfish]

I have no faith in their quarterback evaluation skills.

neither does anyone else, including probably themselves at this point. . .

[Poet]

i think that's largely accurate. . . of course, the problem is that none of mayfield/allen/jackson is worth the #5 pick anymore than they're worth #3 or 4. . . we'll be reaching our arms off if we can't trade back, or trade back into the tail end of the 1st for one of them. . . teams do dumb things when they don't have QBs. . . it's a real challenge for elway and co. to stay disciplined, rather than ignoring everything else until that glaring need is filled. . . that's part of the appeal of going after kirk cousins, which i absolutely believe is their first choice. . .

If we traded back and grabbed Jackson, how does that make you (hypothetically) feel?

[Rick]

Like shit.

[dogfish]

If we traded back and grabbed Jackson, how does that make you (hypothetically) feel?

not that great. . . it doesn't look like he's accurate enough to succeed in the NFL. . . i like darnold, but he looks to be out of reach. . . i think allen is a waste, and probably jackson as well. . . if we draft a QB, i'd probably hold my nose and take shorty. . . or a guy like rudolph or falk in the second, but i really know nothing about the rest of the group. . . ultimately, i just think we're in a bad spot-- none of the available options honestly make me think we're going to be any good in the near future, including cousins. . . this is what it is when you don't have a QB. . .

[Poet]

not that great. . . it doesn't look like he's accurate enough to succeed in the NFL. . . i like darnold, but he looks to be out of reach. . . i think allen is a waste, and probably jackson as well. . . if we draft a QB, i'd probably hold my nose and take shorty. . . or a guy like rudolph or falk in the second, but i really know nothing about the rest of the group. . . ultimately, i just think we're in a bad spot-- none of the available options honestly make me think we're going to be any good in the near future, including cousins. . . this is what it is when you don't have a QB. . .

I respect that analysis. I want Allen, but Darnold would be fine, too. They both have the minds for the game, the physical ability is there, and they're both competitors.

I do wish we would have lost more games this year. Make it easier to trade up...

[Rick]

If it is a guy from the draft I want Mayfield. Give me a guy who is actually accurate. I don't care if he likes to play with his balls on live TV.

[Hawgdriver]

If we traded back and grabbed Jackson, how does that make you (hypothetically) feel?

I'm fine with it as long as he grades out as a 1st round RB/WR too. Guy is a talented gamer, sign me up. Maybe not an NFL QB though.

[Poet]

I'm fine with it as long as he grades out as a 1st round RB/WR too.

That T. Pryor type of pick.

[Hawgdriver]

That T. Pryor type of pick.

Not sure if T. Pryor was a 1st round WR, but L-Jack is an incredible athlete. This stuff is coach Chaz territory.

[Poet]

Not sure if T. Pryor was a 1st round WR, but L-Jack is an incredible athlete. This stuff is coach Chaz territory.

T Pryor wasn't a first round pick, but in the general sense of 'this guy is so ******* talented and has the right body type to do damn near anything'.

[Cugel]

The success rate league wide has to be less than 15%. I think you may need to adjust your expectations.

It's much worse than that. The success rate outside of the first round is much less than 10%, and outside the 2nd round it's less than 1%. For every Tom Brady taken in the 6th there are about 100 failures nobody remembers.

I mean how many people remember the immortal Spergon Wynn, taken in the same round and same year as Brady, or that dynamic duo, Josh Heupel and Josh Booty, taken in the 6th round the year after?

How about such amazing talent as: Cliff Kingsberry, Brooks Bollinger, Drew Henson, and Jeff Smoker? No kidding. Jeff Smoker.

That's why I'm not holding my breath for Chad Kelly to turn into a star either. It could happen, but you actually have a better chance going to Vegas and betting the house on 1 turn of the roulette wheel (1 in 36 versus 1 in more than 100).

[tripp]

Just a few thoughts here:

1) I think it's pointless in drafting a QB for many reasons, 1, being Elway can't draft a QB worth a shit, 2, the time to develop a QB will waste our defense, 3, we won't do much with our O-line as it currently stands.

2) The more I've thought about getting Cousins, the more I don't like it. I think he's a fringe top 10 QB in this league that would be getting paid top 5 QB money which is ridiculous. I'd rather a cheaper QB that could get the job done as easily with a top 5 defense.

3) Would anyone consider trading for Luck? Would you give up our 1st round pick and next years 1st for Luck? A young franchise QB who is proven to be a top QB in this league when healthy.

4) I'd make a play for Alex Smith, perhaps Rivers, or maybe, just maybe Foles. Again, we're not going to win much with the way our O-line is, so it's important to attack that position in the draft or free agency.

[BroncoJoe]

I'd be VERY happy not drafting a QB this year. Get a vet - Foles, Taylor, Bridgewater/Keenum or the like and fix other parts of the offense (OL). That'll buy us a year or two to see if PL will ever come around (which I doubt), or if Kelly is the real deal (which is the great unknown).

PS: I don't want Cousins. Too expensive and I don't think he'd solve anything.

[dogfish]

i think we should just roll with chad kelly, and a couple guys from practice squads around the league. . . we can save a bunch of money that way, and one of them will probably pan out. . . yep-- fixing the QB spot on the cheap is definitely the way to go. . . that'll leave us money to fix the really important positions, like left guard and tight end. . .


lol, apologies for the sarcasm, fellas. . . your hopes are in vain, though. . . after the worst season in recent memory, i think you can feel pretty confident that john is not going to fill the most impactful position on the team with more late round scrubs, or some shitty journeyman free agent without a legitimate developmental prospect behind him (and no, packin' lunch does not count). . . if it's not cousins, it's going to be a first or second round pick-- likely baker mayfield or josh allen. . . we all know what a ferocious competitor john is, he's not gonna ride with chad kelly and tyrod taylor as his top QBs and pray for a miracle. . . go ahead, ask nostratimmy if you don't believe me. . .

[Slick]

i think we should just roll with chad kelly, and a couple guys from practice squads around the league. . . we can save a bunch of money that way, and one of them will probably pan out. . . yep-- fixing the QB spot on the cheap is definitely the way to go. . . that'll leave us money to fix the really important positions, like left guard and tight end. . .


lol, apologies for the sarcasm, fellas. . . your hopes are in vain, though. . . after the worst season in recent memory, i think you can feel pretty confident that john is not going to fill the most impactful position on the team with more late round scrubs, or some shitty journeyman free agent without a legitimate developmental prospect behind him (and no, packin' lunch does not count). . . if it's not cousins, it's going to be a first or second round pick-- likely baker mayfield or josh allen. . . we all know what a ferocious competitor john is, he's not gonna ride with chad kelly and tyrod taylor as his top QBs and pray for a miracle. . . go ahead, ask nostratimmy if you don't believe me. . .

If he takes Allen or Mayfield at 5 he's a dumbass.

[Poet]

If he takes Allen or Mayfield at 5 he's a dumbass.

Allen is the truth. You shush your mouth you insolent...gringo? We call Dave an insolent Brit...

Regardless you're insolent and I won't stand for it!

[dogfish]

If he takes Allen or Mayfield at 5 he's a dumbass.

only if the guy doesn't pan out. . . ;) however, FTR, i'm not saying i think he would take either of them at #5. . . there are more ways to skin a cat than that. . . we'll have plenty of ammo to move around if we want to. . . personally, i expect JFE to go hard after cousins. . . i don't think he's settling for tyrod and chad kelly if he can't get kirk, though. . . we know for a fact that we're going to get a good look at allen and mayfield during the senior bowl, and we've specifically asked for baker on our squad. . . it just makes sense to me that we'll likely settle on one of those guys as Plan B. . . who knows, though? there's also a rumor that we love quentin nelson, so maybe we grab him at 5, and take mason rudolph in the 2nd. . . i'm extremely confident that john's not rolling with TT, packin' lunch and swag kelly as his QB room for next year, in any case. . . he went on a wild free agent spending spree after losing the super bowl, i think we can all rest assured that he has a go big or go home type of plan to attack this off-season. . . JMO, obviously, but i think we can read that much in the tea leaves from here. . .

[UnderArmour]

I'm curious about this scenario:
-Redskins sign Cousins long-term, taking Broncos out of running
-AJ McCarron wins his arbitration and becomes an UFA.

Do the Broncos pursue AJ McCarron ahead of other players? Vance Joseph was on the coaching staff for two years while AJ was there, so it's possible he might have some information (assuming Vance isn't as incompetent as he showed last year). If so, what is McCarron's market value?

And even if the Broncos sign a non-Cousins quarterback (Bridgewater, Tyrod, Bradford, McCarron), do they do what the Bears did and "commit" to him with a contract like Mike Glennon got simply to smokescreen on draft day to take a QB?

I would honestly rank my QB preferences as:
1. Kirk Cousins long-term deal (franchise commits to him). Allows OLine in draft, or trading back.
2. AJ McCarron long-term deal with out after year 2. (Franchise has wiggle room on committing to him). Allows OLine in draft, trading back, or grabbing a Darnold/Rosen that falls.
3. Sign a Tyrod or Bridgewater on front-loaded deal. Darnold/Rosen via trading up or their draft stock falling between now and draft day (it happens).
4. Sign a Tyrod or Bridgewater on front-loaded deal. Trade back for Baker Mayfield or Lamar Jackson.
5. Sign a Tyrod or Bridgewater on front-loaded deal. Start them, take non-QB BPA or trade back, and pray that Paxton somehow develops.

Under no circumstances do I want Alex Smith. I would rather sign Cutler to start for a year as a mentor than give the Chiefs any kind of draft pick.

[Broncoknight30]

No one would want to see what Kelly has? Meaning, I would say get a veteran (not a 30 million dollar Cousins) and have Kelly groomed as a backup. Let him go through a TC, and an entire season. See what he has. He had better stats in college in the same conference than Dak Prescott.

I would rather that scenario play out and have them draft an ELITE ILB with that 5th pick. Not some project with Allen or another Big XII QB that will not make it in the NFL.

I guess that is not going to be the case. If they sign a 30 million dollar Cousins, then this team will SUFFER in other areas. I will point it out again about that reality with ALL franchises who have a HIGH PRICED QB. We can all ignore that reality, but that is the reality.

As it is, they are already going to be letting key players from that defense that WON THE SB (had zero to do with Manning) go. How many guys are now gone from that starting defense? Malik, Trevathan, TJ Ward, Sylvester Williams, Demarcus Ware? Who else is not going to be there in order to have enough money to sign Cousins? Talib? Who else?

Anyway, while Cousins would make the offense better, just because Elway cannot draft QBs and we have three shits now, it won't mean much in the long run. Then again, with the hard cap it is difficult to ever plan for the long run. Really nearly impossible.

I am babbling, cause I really have no clue what the answer is. Perhaps I am old school who still thinks a dynamic defense is more important to get a championship than a high priced franchise QB.

The way things seem to be, it sure looks like Elway will either sign Cousins OR will be drafting another first round QB and that will either be Allen or Mayfield. Whooopy!

[dogfish]

No one would want to see what Kelly has?

only slightly more than i want to see what jordan taylor has. . .


does anybody know if zach dysert is still out there?

[Broncoknight30]

only slightly more than i want to see what jordan taylor has. . .


does anybody know if zach dysert is still out there?

I like Jordan Taylor and i am willing to bet Dysert, a lot like Sloter is better and cheaper than any of the shit that was on the roster last year.

And no I doubt Dysert is really any good. There is that economic reality of the NFL in a hard cap era again. Something most us know very little about.

[chazoe60]

AJ McCarron can not be looked at as option number 2. He can't beat out Andy Dalton. What has he ever done to garner the belief that he can be a franchise guy? I don't get that one.

[UnderArmour]

AJ McCarron can not be looked at as option number 2. He can't beat out Andy Dalton. What has he ever done to garner the belief that he can be a franchise guy? I don't get that one.

There is only one franchise QB available in free agency, and that's Captain Kirk so all of the Plan B, Plan Cs involve guys who are question marks. Whether it's Bridgewater, Tyrod, Bradford, Cutler, or Smith (barf): none of those guys have done anything to garner belief they can be franchise guys. A Mike Glennon deal is the most likely outcome for any of those guys in free agency.

Dalton is the guy in Cincy. They aren't going to have an open competition, so that's not even a valid criticism of McCarron.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

There is only one franchise QB available in free agency, and that's Captain Kirk so all of the Plan B, Plan Cs involve guys who are question marks. Whether it's Bridgewater, Tyrod, Bradford, Cutler, or Smith (barf): none of those guys have done anything to garner belief they can be franchise guys. A Mike Glennon deal is the most likely outcome for any of those guys in free agency.

Dalton is the guy in Cincy. They aren't going to have an open competition, so that's not even a valid criticism of McCarron.

Of course it’s a valid criticism. It’s not like Dalton was a #1 overall pick who they’re still trying to give “a chance” to be the franchise
. He’s an average guy who can’t win a playoff game and can’t, somehow win much at all with a top 3 WR, a good TE, and a great stable of RBs. He’s far from untouchable. The Bungles know what he is, and they know what they have in McCarron. The fact that they’re still starting Dalton, to me, is evidence enough for me. I wouldn’t want Dalton, so why would I want his backup?

McCarron has a Matt Flynn thing going because he started a few games and played okay on a playoff team. He’s totally overrated. Someone will overpay for this dude and regret it.

[chazoe60]

The AJ Mccarron stuff is just ridiculous.

[UnderArmour]

Of course it’s a valid criticism. It’s not like Dalton was a #1 overall pick who they’re still trying to give “a chance” to be the franchise
. He’s an average guy who can’t win a playoff game and can’t, somehow win much at all with a top 3 WR, a good TE, and a great stable of RBs. He’s far from untouchable. The Bungles know what he is, and they know what they have in McCarron. The fact that they’re still starting Dalton, to me, is evidence enough for me. I wouldn’t want Dalton, so why would I want his backup?

McCarron has a Matt Flynn thing going because he started a few games and played okay on a playoff team. He’s totally overrated. Someone will overpay for this dude and regret it.

It's not a valid criticism, because neither of you get it: Dalton is the Bengals franchise QB. There are no quarterback competitions for franchise QBs starting spots anywhere in the league. Once you have a guy who is flagged as a franchise QB, you don't let the other guy compete. That's like saying "Well Garrapolo couldn't beat out Brady for his job!", well no shit he couldn't because there was no competition. You might say, "Oh! Well Brady won 5 Super Bowls that's different!" but to the Bengals, winning division titles is a major accomplishment, and Dalton has won several. Criticism of McCaroron for not taking Dalton's job is completely ignorant of the context of the Bengals franchise and makes zero sense.

Every QB needy team is going to have to overpay, and will probably structure along the lines of Mike Glennon's deal. Teams without a QB1 under contract next year include: Broncos, Vikings, Redskins, Jets, Cardinals, and Browns. The Bills and the Giants of course may decide to change things up as well, leaving the free agent pieces as Cousins(return to Washington probable), McCarron, Bridgewater, Bradford, Keenum(almost a lock for return to Vikings), Alex Smith (for trade), with rookies in play. There's really not much else. If you assume the question marks return, that leaves us, the Jets, the Cardinals, and the Browns competing for McCarron, Bridgewater, and Bradford, with the Browns and Jets with insane amounts of cap space and none of those players worth a long-term commitment.

[underrated29]

McCarron sucks. I’d rather: Alex Smith, Eli, teddy, Sammy Brad, case keenum, just about anyone. AJ sucks, the most overrated QB in the league.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I just don’t want other people’s “trash” being our “treasure”. Bridgewater, Keenum, Smith, Taylor, McCarron, etc. if they aren’t good enough to be a starter or really be anything but a backup for others, why are they good enough for us? This is the most important position in the NFL, stop settling for second rate players. Even the “sign a vet to groom a rookie” sentiment is bullshit these days. If you draft a rookie to start, play his ass. Every year you don’t, you delay his potential ability to be “the guy”.

There are 3 potential real “franchise” starting QBs out there this year that might be available: Brees (old), Eli (old), and Cousins (in his prime). If we can’t get Cousins, draft a guy and start him. The end. Not really that hard.

[chazoe60]

I just don’t want other people’s “trash” being our “treasure”. Bridgewater, Keenum, Smith, Taylor, McCarron, etc. if they aren’t good enough to be a starter or really be anything but a backup for others, why are they good enough for us? This is the most important position in the NFL, stop settling for second rate players. Even the “sign a vet to groom a rookie” sentiment is bullshit these days. If you draft a rookie to start, play his ass. Every year you don’t, you delay his potential ability to be “the guy”.

There are 3 potential real “franchise” starting QBs out there this year that might be available: Brees (old), Eli (old), and Cousins (in his prime). If we can’t get Cousins, draft a guy and start him. The end. Not really that hard.

Keenum does intrigue me though. I have watched very little non Broncos football but when I did watch it this year it always seemed to be the Vikings and Keenum really impressed me every time. He is going on a solid season of starting now versus a guy like AJ who has started three games three seasons ago.

[dogfish]

Of course it’s a valid criticism. It’s not like Dalton was a #1 overall pick who they’re still trying to give “a chance” to be the franchise
. He’s an average guy who can’t win a playoff game and can’t, somehow win much at all with a top 3 WR, a good TE, and a great stable of RBs. He’s far from untouchable. The Bungles know what he is, and they know what they have in McCarron. The fact that they’re still starting Dalton, to me, is evidence enough for me. I wouldn’t want Dalton, so why would I want his backup?

McCarron has a Matt Flynn thing going because he started a few games and played okay on a playoff team. He’s totally overrated. Someone will overpay for this dude and regret it.

yuuuup. . . it's kirk or bust as far as finding a solution in free agency, unless the vikes actually let keenum go. . . mccarron, bridgewater, and any of the others are just one-year transition plans, at best-- it doesn't really matter which of the names you plug in, none of them are good enough to look at as a long term plan. . . they're all mike glennons. . .

[dogfish]

Keenum does intrigue me though. I have watched very little non Broncos football but when I did watch it this year it always seemed to be the Vikings and Keenum really impressed me every time. He is going on a solid season of starting now versus a guy like AJ who has started three games three seasons ago.

which is why they're going to keep him. . . and develop sloter as their backup-- watch, doubters. . .

[chazoe60]

My ranking of desirability is
1. Cousins and draft Nelson
2a. Figure out a way to land a Rosen or Darnold or even Mayfield if Elway thinks he's ready now and just put him right in the fire.
2b. Keenum and a developmental 2nd-4th round type of guy and draft OL.
3. Taylor, Smith etc and a Mayfield/Allen type.


I was holding onto very slim hopes that Luck and the Colts' relationship was beyond repair and we could trade for him(dream scenario) but the McDaniels hire (jokes aside) probably makes that even small hope dwindle to nothing.

[UnderArmour]

My ranking of desirability is
1. Cousins
2. Figure out a way to land a Rosen or Darnold or even Mayfield if Elway thinks he's ready now and just put him right in the fire.
3. Keenum and a developmental 2nd-4th round type of guy
4. Taylor, Smith etc and a Mayfield/Allen type.


I was holding onto very slim hopes that Luck and the Colts' relationship was beyond repair and we could trade for him(dream scenario) but the McDaniels hire (jokes aside) probably makes that even small hope dwindle to nothing.

Keenum led his team to the #2 seed and will almost certainly be tagged by the Vikings if no deal can be worked out.

Alex Smith is under contract with the Chiefs and would cost a draft pick, and carries a whopping $20 million cap number. Plus, he's not really a game-changing quarterback, think Kyle Orton 2.0. He's an option for the Jets or Browns with massive cap space, but not really an option for us. I legitimately would rather sign Jay Cutler again for a 1-year stopgap than touch average Alex Smith.

Tyrod Taylor is still under contract with Buffalo, and for all the speculation about his future, I'm still not sold that the Bills cut him and join the quarterback free agency sweepstakes.

All of the options suck, honestly. Maybe Shurmur ditches Eli in favor of one of his guys in New York, and that would be great for us if we could grab him.

[Buff]

Keenum led his team to the #2 seed and will almost certainly be tagged by the Vikings if no deal can be worked out.

Alex Smith is under contract with the Chiefs and would cost a draft pick, and carries a whopping $20 million cap number. Plus, he's not really a game-changing quarterback, think Kyle Orton 2.0. He's an option for the Jets or Browns with massive cap space, but not really an option for us. I legitimately would rather sign Jay Cutler again for a 1-year stopgap than touch average Alex Smith.

Tyrod Taylor is still under contract with Buffalo, and for all the speculation about his future, I'm still not sold that the Bills cut him and join the quarterback free agency sweepstakes.

All of the options suck, honestly. Maybe Shurmur ditches Eli in favor of one of his guys in New York, and that would be great for us if we could grab him.


Nobody is going to pay Alex Smith's number next year. Teams know the Chiefs can't pay him with Mahomes ready to take over which will force them to cut him. So he won't cost a draft pick or $20 million.

Here's the thing - I am not excited by Smith. Nobody is excited by Smith... But for the sake of discussion, if we don't sign Cousins, Smith actually makes some sense as a temporary stopgap type of solution who can manage games and allow the defense to shine - and likely wouldn't come with the exorbitant salary of a Cousins or Brees. His skillset seems to fit better than a Brees or Manning type who will win you some games, but also throw their share of INTs and have more physical limitations...

In short - you're absolutely nuts if you want Cutler over Smith - and while I completely agree that he's the most underwhelming name out there - he actually makes some sense for our team as currently constructed.

[UnderArmour]

In short - you're absolutely nuts if you want Cutler over Smith - and while I completely agree that he's the most underwhelming name out there - he actually makes some sense for our team as currently constructed.

You hit the nail on the head there. He makes perfect sense if we want another Griese/Orton/Siemian type that perennially falls short of the playoffs. We have an offensive roster that's constructed to not make plays and fall short, so he'd be a perfect fit here.

Under no circumstances should Alex Smith be anywhere near our roster, and I would be completely disappointed heading into the draft with him as our #1 option. I would probably puke if we sent KC any kind of draft pick for him, and it is entirely possible the team plays chicken til the very end with him. Make no mistake, the Chiefs have the leverage to get a draft pick for Smith due to savings they can get in other players. The Chiefs can force Derrick Johnson to take a pay cut(or cut him for $8 million savings), and cut Tamba Hali($8 million savings), plus they have other deals to restructure if needed.

[BroncoJoe]

You hit the nail on the head there. He makes perfect sense if we want another Griese/Orton/Siemian type that perennially falls short of the playoffs. We have an offensive roster that's constructed to not make plays and fall short, so he'd be a perfect fit here.

Under no circumstances should Alex Smith be anywhere near our roster, and I would be completely disappointed heading into the draft with him as our #1 option. I would probably puke if we sent KC any kind of draft pick for him, and it is entirely possible the team plays chicken til the very end with him. Make no mistake, the Chiefs have the leverage to get a draft pick for Smith due to savings they can get in other players. The Chiefs can force Derrick Johnson to take a pay cut(or cut him for $8 million savings), and cut Tamba Hali($8 million savings), plus they have other deals to restructure if needed.

I'm now convinced that Alex Smith will be our next QB.

[Cugel]

which is why they're going to keep him. . . and develop sloter as their backup-- watch, doubters. . .

Of course they are keeping Sloter. He's the only QB on their roster who is under contract for next year! They aren't keeping Sam Bradford at his age and contract, and with the team now committed to Case Keenum Teddy Bridgewater is gone. They probably want to pick up another backup QB as well so that they have 3 QBs under contract next year.

On The Drive Alfred Williams insists they will try and get a deal done quickly with Case Keenum so that they can franchise Teddy Bridgewater and then get something for him. They will want a first round pick for him, but it's unlikely they will get that. Perhaps a 2nd though is realistic. After all he has significant starter experience, and we saw that SF gave up a 2nd round pick for Jimmy Garappolo who has less experience.

I can't see Elway surrendering a 2nd round pick for a QB though, unless it's part of the compensation he pays Washington for Kirk Cousins, assuming they would trade him, which I doubt. But, if they can't work out a long-term deal, it's a possibility the Redskins would trade Cousins for Denver's #1 pick and a 1st rounder in 2019 or something. That way they would be guaranteed to be able to draft a QB out of the top 5 QBs taken.

The fans might even forgive them eventually if someone like Baker Mayfield became a good QB for them.

[Cugel]

I'm now convinced that Alex Smith will be our next QB.

And I'm convinced you got hit on the head by a large rock. I'm being charitable of course. You could just be clueless.

Alex Smith is under contract with the Chefs next year for $20m. There is NO WAY they will just let him walk to Denver. None whatever.

If they did that he might help Denver win the division, and how stupid would Andy Reid look if that happened?

Repeat after me: "They are not trading him within the division." They will try and trade him somewhere he won't be able to embarrass them - like the Patriots did by sending Garappolo to the NFC. Cleveland is reportedly the most probable landing spot for Smith because there's no chance he will do anything in Cleveland, the land where QBs go to die. Plus Cleveland has a boat-load of picks and unless Hue Jackson wants to be fired he's got to get a veteran QB capable of starting now, because Sam Darnold isn't.

[Timmy!]

And I'm convinced you got hit on the head by a large rock. I'm being charitable of course. You could just be clueless.

There it is ladies and gentlemen. The most hypocritical thing anybody has ever said in the history of the known universe.

[Cugel]

Nobody is going to pay Alex Smith's number next year. Teams know the Chiefs can't pay him with Mahomes ready to take over which will force them to cut him. So he won't cost a draft pick or $20 million.

Of course nobody is going to pay Alex Smith $20m, but that doesn't mean the Chefs can't trade him. Somebody not in the division will offer something for him, and then they can work out a deal with Smith for about 2 years and $18m a year or something. He's taking a pay cut either way.

So, he WILL cost a draft pick. Teams will know that they Chefs will have to cut him, but if you're Cleveland say, will Alex Smith voluntarily go there and serve as the bridge QB until Sam Darnold is ready? No.

But, if you are traded, what choice does he have? Sit out the season? The Chefs own his rights and can trade him where they like. He's better off signing a deal with a team that wants him rather than engaging in a game of chicken with a team that doesn't.

[chazoe60]

You hit the nail on the head there. He makes perfect sense if we want another Griese/Orton/Siemian type that perennially falls short of the playoffs. We have an offensive roster that's constructed to not make plays and fall short, so he'd be a perfect fit here.

Under no circumstances should Alex Smith be anywhere near our roster, and I would be completely disappointed heading into the draft with him as our #1 option. I would probably puke if we sent KC any kind of draft pick for him, and it is entirely possible the team plays chicken til the very end with him. Make no mistake, the Chiefs have the leverage to get a draft pick for Smith due to savings they can get in other players. The Chiefs can force Derrick Johnson to take a pay cut(or cut him for $8 million savings), and cut Tamba Hali($8 million savings), plus they have other deals to restructure if needed.

Alex Smith is much better than Griese/Orton/Siemian.

[Buff]

You hit the nail on the head there. He makes perfect sense if we want another Griese/Orton/Siemian type that perennially falls short of the playoffs. We have an offensive roster that's constructed to not make plays and fall short, so he'd be a perfect fit here.

Under no circumstances should Alex Smith be anywhere near our roster, and I would be completely disappointed heading into the draft with him as our #1 option. I would probably puke if we sent KC any kind of draft pick for him, and it is entirely possible the team plays chicken til the very end with him. Make no mistake, the Chiefs have the leverage to get a draft pick for Smith due to savings they can get in other players. The Chiefs can force Derrick Johnson to take a pay cut(or cut him for $8 million savings), and cut Tamba Hali($8 million savings), plus they have other deals to restructure if needed.

We won a Super Bowl with sub-Alex Smith level production from the QB. We'd arguably be a playoff team this year if we had a game manager at QB this year.

I understand how it's nothing to get excited about - but I think you're a little too down on him.


Of course nobody is going to pay Alex Smith $20m, but that doesn't mean the Chefs can't trade him. Somebody not in the division will offer something for him, and then they can work out a deal with Smith for about 2 years and $18m a year or something. He's taking a pay cut either way.

So, he WILL cost a draft pick. Teams will know that they Chefs will have to cut him, but if you're Cleveland say, will Alex Smith voluntarily go there and serve as the bridge QB until Sam Darnold is ready? No.

But, if you are traded, what choice does he have? Sit out the season? The Chefs own his rights and can trade him where they like. He's better off signing a deal with a team that wants him rather than engaging in a game of chicken with a team that doesn't.

Here's the thing though - if a team is going to trade for him, they are going to have to eat his $20 million.

Unless it's the perfect suitor, where Smith wants to go, then he has no incentive to accept a reduced deal when he could likely go get more on the open market once he's cut loose. But you may be right - in the end he might be pragmatic and decide to take the reduced pay with a team who wants him as opposed to waiting to be cut in training camp... But I also have a hard time seeing Andy Reid doing him dirty like that.

I would still bet on him being cut over being traded today.

[MOtorboat]

And I'm convinced you got hit on the head by a large rock. I'm being charitable of course. You could just be clueless.

Alex Smith is under contract with the Chefs next year for $20m. There is NO WAY they will just let him walk to Denver. None whatever.

If they did that he might help Denver win the division, and how stupid would Andy Reid look if that happened?

Repeat after me: "They are not trading him within the division." They will try and trade him somewhere he won't be able to embarrass them - like the Patriots did by sending Garappolo to the NFC. Cleveland is reportedly the most probable landing spot for Smith because there's no chance he will do anything in Cleveland, the land where QBs go to die. Plus Cleveland has a boat-load of picks and unless Hue Jackson wants to be fired he's got to get a veteran QB capable of starting now, because Sam Darnold isn't.

Cugel saying something basically means the opposite is true.

[dogfish]

On The Drive Alfred Williams insists they will try and get a deal done quickly with Case Keenum so that they can franchise Teddy Bridgewater and then get something for him. They will want a first round pick for him, but it's unlikely they will get that. Perhaps a 2nd though is realistic. After all he has significant starter experience, and we saw that SF gave up a 2nd round pick for Jimmy Garappolo who has less experience.


dude, you really need to stop believing the nonsense that big al spews. . . :laugh: bridgewater never looked all that great even before he was hurt-- garoppolo was far more promising, albeit in very limited action. . . ain't nobody paying teddy the franchise number for QBs, let alone giving up significant draft pick compensation for the right to do so. . . that's madness. . . if they were actually dumb enough to tag him they would be stuck with him. . . al was also rambling on yesterday about how fantastic AJ mccarron is, and how elway needs to sign him to a massive deal. . . lol. . .

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I think the bottom line is, if these guys were any good, they wouldn’t be:
a) free agents
or
b) on the trade block

The only exception is Cousins because of how they bungled him. I’m very skeptical of Keenum right now. It’s not like he’s a rookie or a young guy. He’s the same age as Cousins, has been in the league 6 years and has one good season under his belt. 1 year out of a possible 6. It’s not like he’s sat behind legends, either. He was a Texan and a Ram. So awesome on Houston they threw big money at Osweiler then had to draft Watson. So good in St Louis they drafted Goff.

He’s had one decent year on a team that runs the ball more than any other team (30+ times a game, no matter if it’s working or not). He also has 2 stud WRs and a stud TE.

[CoachChaz]

I'm predicting a Chase Daniel/Baker Mayfield duo. The new era of the 6 foot QB.

[BroncoJoe]

Cugel saying something basically means the opposite is true.

Right? I mean it is totally out of the realm of possibility that Andy Reid would trade a QB to a division rival, right?

Oh, wait. He actually HAS done that before.

[Broncoknight30]

Right? I mean it is totally out of the realm of possibility that Andy Reid would trade a QB to a division rival, right?

Oh, wait. He actually HAS done that before.

True...then again, McNabb really was a handful. He more than likely knew he and Shanahan would NOT mix. I am guessing that. Also, when Belichick traded the overrated Bledsoe to the Bills.

Alex Smith just completed his best statistical season. I doubt there has ever been a case where a team traded the current number 1 rated QB in the NFL to a team in their own division.

He would trade him here, however the price would be too steep. I do think he would be the best one for this franchise. He is more proven and cheaper than what Cousins is going to demand. Plus, at his age the Broncos could take a look at Kelly for an entire season with Smith being a mentor.

I don't think it is going to happen. Hate to say this, but I personally dont see any scenario that appeals to me. None, unless they could pull a miracle trade with Reid.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Someone in the NFC will bite on Smith. KC can’t keep him on the roster

[Freyaka]

I have a suspicion we'll be going with a combination of a mid tier stop gap QB at a team friendly price and Baker Mayfield. Nicki Jhabvala is indicating that we specifically requested to coach Baker Mayfield at the Senior Bowl and shortly after, Baker signed with a Boulder based sports agency.

[underrated29]

I have a suspicion we'll be going with a combination of a mid tier stop gap QB at a team friendly price and Baker Mayfield. Nicki Jhabvala is indicating that we specifically requested to coach Baker Mayfield at the Senior Bowl and shortly after, Baker signed with a Boulder based sports agency.



I just watched some of him and that would piss me off greatly. Even more so then when we drafted Paxton Lynch. Ill take mayfield in the 2nd/3rd range. If we take him at 5 I really will be punting kittens. Ill go to dove valley and punt them at Elway!

[Broncoknight30]

I have a suspicion we'll be going with a combination of a mid tier stop gap QB at a team friendly price and Baker Mayfield. Nicki Jhabvala is indicating that we specifically requested to coach Baker Mayfield at the Senior Bowl and shortly after, Baker signed with a Boulder based sports agency.

The problem I have seen with the Big XII QBs, other than they don't play real defenses, is none of them play in offenses that prepare them for the NFL.

What baffles me is Elway just drafted a player that played in an offense like that at Memphis. Everyone knew he was a "project" and that more than anything else is what bothered me.

Mayfield clearly played in an offense that is NOT preparing their QBs for the next level. Hardly no snaps from under center, and when Mayfield did take snaps in a more pro style set, he was inconsistent.

Then again, Allen is not the answer either. So, where are we? Nowhere. Thats where.

[CoachChaz]

The problem I have seen with the Big XII QBs, other than they don't play real defenses, is none of them play in offenses that prepare them for the NFL.

What baffles me is Elway just drafted a player that played in an offense like that at Memphis. Everyone knew he was a "project" and that more than anything else is what bothered me.

Mayfield clearly played in an offense that is NOT preparing their QBs for the next level. Hardly no snaps from under center, and when Mayfield did take snaps in a more pro style set, he was inconsistent.

Then again, Allen is not the answer either. So, where are we? Nowhere. Thats where.

Ohio State, Georgia and TCU twice. Mayfield played 4 games against top 20 NCAA defenses this year. 70% completion, 12 TD, 1 INT.

I'm not officially advocating for Mayfield, but I think his overall field of work is certainly worthy of discussion. Despite playing in the Big 12, he has faced good defenses and let's be honest. If he was 6'4", there would be no doubt about his value. Despite the success of guys like Brees and Wilson...or Denver's interest in 6'1" Taylor. Hell...even Aaron Rodgers is only 6'2".

As far as the system he comes from, I think we are quick to forget that MOST college systems are NFL unfriendly. it all comes down to the player's ability to learn and adapt. Did anyone guarantee that Wentz would come from a unique system at a small school and succeed? It's about the player...and the staff will get to know him very well over the next few weeks.

[Cugel]

Right? I mean it is totally out of the realm of possibility that Andy Reid would trade a QB to a division rival, right?

Oh, wait. He actually HAS done that before.

Yes. He has done that before. If Alex Smith is considered by him to be pretty much washed up he could do it again. The question is: "Is Alex Smith washed up? Would trading him to Denver immediately make the Broncos co-favorites to win the AFC West? Or not?"

But, then why would the Broncos want him if he's washed up? And if he's not, why would Andy Reid trade him? Does that sound like a good idea if you're the Chefs?

They could probably trade him to Cleveland where he could do them no harm. Why, outside of the fact that you are a Broncos fan and want to see Alex Smith in a Denver uniform, would such a deal make any sense?

Try using logic for a change. Either he's washed up or he isn't. If not, then the last place they should trade him is Denver. If so, then Elway won't want him.

[Cugel]

Ohio State, Georgia and TCU twice. Mayfield played 4 games against top 20 NCAA defenses this year. 70% completion, 12 TD, 1 INT.

I'm not officially advocating for Mayfield, but I think his overall field of work is certainly worthy of discussion. Despite playing in the Big 12, he has faced good defenses and let's be honest. If he was 6'4", there would be no doubt about his value. Despite the success of guys like Brees and Wilson...or Denver's interest in 6'1" Taylor. Hell...even Aaron Rodgers is only 6'2".

As far as the system he comes from, I think we are quick to forget that MOST college systems are NFL unfriendly. it all comes down to the player's ability to learn and adapt. Did anyone guarantee that Wentz would come from a unique system at a small school and succeed? It's about the player...and the staff will get to know him very well over the next few weeks.

That, almost certainly is why Elway is going down with his staff to the Senior Bowl and coaching and looking at Mayfield. He wants to see for himself what the kid looks like in an NFL style practice before they would consider drafting him.

[Cugel]

True...then again, McNabb really was a handful. He more than likely knew he and Shanahan would NOT mix. I am guessing that. Also, when Belichick traded the overrated Bledsoe to the Bills.

Alex Smith just completed his best statistical season. I doubt there has ever been a case where a team traded the current number 1 rated QB in the NFL to a team in their own division.

He would trade him here, however the price would be too steep. I do think he would be the best one for this franchise. He is more proven and cheaper than what Cousins is going to demand. Plus, at his age the Broncos could take a look at Kelly for an entire season with Smith being a mentor.

I don't think it is going to happen. Hate to say this, but I personally dont see any scenario that appeals to me. None, unless they could pull a miracle trade with Reid.

Basically this is logical. Would Elway want to give up a 2nd round pick or 3rd rounder for a bridge QB?

I think every sensible fan can agree that Alex Smith is NOT the long-term answer for the Broncos the way Kirk Cousins would (potentially) be. So, Elway would have to draft a QB, probably with the #5 pick.

So, now in this scenario the Broncos use their #1 pick on Baker Mayfield, or Josh Allen say. Then they have a 2nd or 3rd rounder going to the Chefs for another QB.

That's most of their draft, and they still have holes all over this team, at TE, T, G, WR, DT, ILB, etc. that won't get filled because they have only 1 pick in the first 3 rounds to do that with.

I'm not saying it's completely out of the question Elway could do it, but it doesn't seem very likely. It's not likely Andy Reid would give the Broncos a chance to make them regret trading Alex Smith though. It's not like the Broncos are the only QB hungry team in the league they could trade to.

[Broncoknight30]

Ohio State, Georgia and TCU twice. Mayfield played 4 games against top 20 NCAA defenses this year. 70% completion, 12 TD, 1 INT.

I'm not officially advocating for Mayfield, but I think his overall field of work is certainly worthy of discussion. Despite playing in the Big 12, he has faced good defenses and let's be honest. If he was 6'4", there would be no doubt about his value. Despite the success of guys like Brees and Wilson...or Denver's interest in 6'1" Taylor. Hell...even Aaron Rodgers is only 6'2".

As far as the system he comes from, I think we are quick to forget that MOST college systems are NFL unfriendly. it all comes down to the player's ability to learn and adapt. Did anyone guarantee that Wentz would come from a unique system at a small school and succeed? It's about the player...and the staff will get to know him very well over the next few weeks.

True enough. Manziel, did great against Alabama and Tebow did great against the SEC etc. Does not really mean much. Those offenses (no huddle spread read option) puts significant pressure on defenses. Especially when a defense faces it for the first time. GA for example was a bit overwhelmed by the quick pace and lets face it, Okla gets top athletes.

However, in that game as GA adjusted to it, that offense started looking less effective.

I doubt the Broncos would be installing an offense that fits what Mayfield thrived in. I dont even know, I am assuming Musgrave is still the coordinator. Do you think Mayfield will fit into that system?

[underrated29]

That, almost certainly is why Elway is going down with his staff to the Senior Bowl and coaching and looking at Mayfield. He wants to see for himself what the kid looks like in an NFL style practice before they would consider drafting him.



They want to get a good long look no doubt. I have this feeling that we are going to use this QB thing as great bait to get someone to trade up.....I just think he wants Barkley or Arden Key or someone. I do not think we draft a QB in with our first pick.

[CoachChaz]

True enough. Manziel, did great against Alabama and Tebow did great against the SEC etc. Does not really mean much. Those offenses (no huddle spread read option) puts significant pressure on defenses. Especially when a defense faces it for the first time. GA for example was a bit overwhelmed by the quick pace and lets face it, Okla gets top athletes.

However, in that game as GA adjusted to it, that offense started looking less effective.

I doubt the Broncos would be installing an offense that fits what Mayfield thrived in. I dont even know, I am assuming Musgrave is still the coordinator. Do you think Mayfield will fit into that system?

Manziel caught Bama off guard...once. Tebow tore up the SEC before it was what it is today. Lincoln Riley play-calling killed OU vs. UGA.

The "vibe" I get from Mayfield is he is a competitor. Any player that does what it takes to win, is capable of fitting themselves into a system designed for what is best for the team. I'd feel much better about Mayfield making the transition to the NFL than I ever did with Lynch.

[dogfish]

Manziel caught Bama off guard...once. Tebow tore up the SEC before it was what it is today. Lincoln Riley play-calling killed OU vs. UGA.

The "vibe" I get from Mayfield is he is a competitor. Any player that does what it takes to win, is capable of fitting themselves into a system designed for what is best for the team. I'd feel much better about Mayfield making the transition to the NFL than I ever did with Lynch.

coach, what do you think of mayfield's arm talent?

[CoachChaz]

coach, what do you think of mayfield's arm talent?

Well, he obviously has the strength to make all the throws. People assume it's not because of his size, but if you watch enough of him, he drops 50 yard passes off of his back foot. What impresses me the most is his accuracy while on the run. NCAA QB's dont throw into too many windows in college, but the way he can disctate location when he's moving is impressive and leads me to believe the accuracy will translate to the NFL.

IMO, the only question marks with Mayfield have to do with peronality (which I think will be fine), and height/size (which plenty of QB's have proven is not a problem)

[underrated29]

Well, he obviously has the strength to make all the throws. People assume it's not because of his size, but if you watch enough of him, he drops 50 yard passes off of his back foot. What impresses me the most is his accuracy while on the run. NCAA QB's dont throw into too many windows in college, but the way he can disctate location when he's moving is impressive and leads me to believe the accuracy will translate to the NFL.

IMO, the only question marks with Mayfield have to do with peronality (which I think will be fine), and height/size (which plenty of QB's have proven is not a problem)



I made a post earlier today about him. His arm too surprised me. Nice arm. I also complimented his willingness to lead and never say die. I love that. Height and size is the last thing I look at when grading QBs. Accuracy is one, but tell me.......What I saw from the kid was:

He rarely ever threads the needle
He has guys open and does not make the throw, then he runs around and throws complete to the guy who was open in the first place
I see him doing more of the tebow ball, waiting for his wr and routes to break down and hitting the wr then, and far less of hitting the guy during the 1st or 2nd read
I dont see him hitting his first or second read out of breaks all that much anyway.

Can he read a defense? Do you think he can? I have not seen enough of him yet to form that opinion, but I am starting to lean that he does not. He reminds me of Tony Romo and Dak Prescott. I like the Romo part, I hate the Dak part. I am not sure which one he will be more of. He scares me.

What do you think?

[Cugel]

True enough. Manziel, did great against Alabama and Tebow did great against the SEC etc. Does not really mean much. Those offenses (no huddle spread read option) puts significant pressure on defenses. Especially when a defense faces it for the first time. GA for example was a bit overwhelmed by the quick pace and lets face it, Okla gets top athletes.

However, in that game as GA adjusted to it, that offense started looking less effective.

I doubt the Broncos would be installing an offense that fits what Mayfield thrived in. I dont even know, I am assuming Musgrave is still the coordinator. Do you think Mayfield will fit into that system?

College is just so different than the pros these days. Big-time college coaches are trying to take all the initiative out of the QBs hands and just have them run the plays they called. The spread offenses work because even on the best college teams, there are soft spots on the defense, and if you have an elite playmaker on offense, then you can exploit that weakness.

In short, they win by having better athletes. But, in the NFL every team has elite athletes. Everybody got drafted, or signed as a FA. They all had elite talent before they could even get an invite to an NFL camp. The difference between the Browns and the Patriots in terms of talent level is just not remotely the same as the difference between say Alabama and 0-8 Tennessee.

According to Kyle Shanahan the College game has diverged so much from the pro game that the only thing NFL teams can evaluate is arm talent. And even that is tough, because guys are wide open in college. You almost never see a WR wide open in the NFL unless there has been a blown coverage. QBs have to have great anticipation to throw a guy open.

They can't wait to see a WR open, and then throw the ball. They have to be able to anticipate, throw to a spot with perfect timing and great accuracy in order to make a completion. And often the DB has great hands and will intercept the ball if it's thrown behind the WR or the timing is off by a split second.

If you throw against guys like Aqib Talib or Chris Harris you better have pinpoint accuracy because they are not only looking to get the ball, they expect to return it to the house too. Talib has better hands than some NFL WRs.

[Freyaka]

They want to get a good long look no doubt. I have this feeling that we are going to use this QB thing as great bait to get someone to trade up.....I just think he wants Barkley or Arden Key or someone. I do not think we draft a QB in with our first pick.

If we don't sign a long term starting option in FA, I can almost guarantee you we will draft a QB at #5 if not trade up. Elway isn't going to try and limp along for another year with another project QB. He won't wait until round 2/3 draft someone.

[dogfish]

If we don't sign a long term starting option in FA, I can almost guarantee you we will draft a QB at #5 if not trade up. Elway isn't going to try and limp along for another year with another project QB. He won't wait until round 2/3 draft someone.

but frey, we gotta "see what we have" with chad kelly!


:lol:

[CoachChaz]

I made a post earlier today about him. His arm too surprised me. Nice arm. I also complimented his willingness to lead and never say die. I love that. Height and size is the last thing I look at when grading QBs. Accuracy is one, but tell me.......What I saw from the kid was:

He rarely ever threads the needle
He has guys open and does not make the throw, then he runs around and throws complete to the guy who was open in the first place
I see him doing more of the tebow ball, waiting for his wr and routes to break down and hitting the wr then, and far less of hitting the guy during the 1st or 2nd read
I dont see him hitting his first or second read out of breaks all that much anyway.

Can he read a defense? Do you think he can? I have not seen enough of him yet to form that opinion, but I am starting to lean that he does not. He reminds me of Tony Romo and Dak Prescott. I like the Romo part, I hate the Dak part. I am not sure which one he will be more of. He scares me.

What do you think?

Unfortunately, the OU offense isnt designed around tight window throws. But fortunately, we'll find the answer with Senior Bowl week, Pro Day and the combine.

I think the glaring difference between Mayfield and Prescott is Mayfield isnt afraid to throw the ball downfield...and he does it with good accuracy, too.

[BroncoJoe]

Unfortunately, the OU offense isnt designed around tight window throws. But fortunately, we'll find the answer with Senior Bowl week, Pro Day and the combine.

I think the glaring difference between Mayfield and Prescott is Mayfield isnt afraid to throw the ball downfield...and he does it with good accuracy, too.

I haven't read all your posts, but you sound like a Mayfield supporter. Would you want the Broncos to draft him?

[underrated29]

but frey, we gotta "see what we have" with chad kelly!


:lol:



I like Kelly more than Baker Mayfield. More than Josh Allen. What do you think those two have on Swaggy that he cannot do?

[BroncoJoe]

I like Kelly more than Baker Mayfield. More than Josh Allen. What do you think those two have on Swaggy that he cannot do?

High draft status?

:heh:

[dogfish]

I like Kelly more than Baker Mayfield. More than Josh Allen. What do you think those two have on Swaggy that he cannot do?

be good enough that some scout thinks they're worth drafting?

[underrated29]

be good enough that some scout thinks they're worth drafting?

Most had Chad Kelly as a 1st - 3rd rd prospect....Machine Gunning people aside.

[BroncoJoe]

Most had Chad Kelly as a 1st - 3rd rd prospect....Machine Gunning people aside.

BUT, he went as Mr. Irrelevant.

"most" don't have anything to do with the actual draft.

[CoachChaz]

I haven't read all your posts, but you sound like a Mayfield supporter. Would you want the Broncos to draft him?

I prefer Cousins at the right price, but if the draft is the way we're going to go, my list would be Darnold, Mayfield, Rudolph, Rosen, Jackson, Allen. In that order.

[CoachChaz]

I think it's safe to say Kelly will be on the roster next year, so he'll get his chance.

[underrated29]

BUT, he went as Mr. Irrelevant.

"most" don't have anything to do with the actual draft.



And a Heisman runner up with no off field issues went in the 6th rd to the patriots.

[dogfish]

Most had Chad Kelly as a 1st - 3rd rd prospect....Machine Gunning people aside.

cool. . . then let's trade him to somebody else for a 1st round pick, and everyone will be happy. . .

[Freyaka]

but frey, we gotta "see what we have" with chad kelly!


:lol:

http://weknowmemes.com/generator/uploads/generated/g1442163375152819355.jpg

[Freyaka]

High draft status?

:heh:

Joe...Let's not start that crap again...Once was enough wasn't it?

[Cugel]

Now Mike Klis 9News Broncos Insider is reporting that of the three Qbs on the roster, Kelly is the one most certain to return.

He thinks they are going to try and trade Trevor Siemian, because of his starter experience he has some value, although what I don't know, and probably they don't either.

Osweiler is gone. He's a FA and they will not try and re-sign him.

As for Paxton, his fate depends on who they obtain as a QB this off-season. If the Broncos draft a QB and sign a FA veteran that would be "bad news for Paxton." They might just release him outright or try and trade him for a bag of ramen noodles or something.

If they sign Kirk Cousins as a FA, it might depend on whether they drafted a backup to develop or not. The advantage of paying Cousins a ginormous salary is that it frees up their draft board to draft the best player available or trade their pick to someone who wants a QB in the top 5, etc. I.e. they almost certainly do NOT take a QB in the first round since they would have their franchise Qb.

I suppose they could draft a long term project in the 2nd like Kyle Rudolf? I don't know who, but if they took a guy it could be a repeat of the Osweiler scenario. They sign Peyton and draft Osweiler as his backup for 4 years. In this scenario it's bye-bye birdy for Paxton since they have another developmental QB. That means they have given up on Paxton.

If on the other hand they DON'T draft a Qb he might stick around for another season and compete to be the backup. They'd be paying enough for Cousins that they might not want to sign another FA to be a backup at perhaps $3 or $4m a year and Paxton and Kelly are cheap. They could, in this scenario keep both around. In that case Paxton could wind up the scout team guy this season.

I don't know that they have completely decided to give up Trevor either. If they can't find a trade for him, they might keep him for the 4th season on his contract. He's under contract in 2018 for $718k which seems like an incredible fortune to me, but is peanuts for NFL players.

That is what I would do if I signed a Cousins. Keep Trevor and Kelly as the developmental guy. Dump Lynch like a hot stone. That way they have their starter their backup and a developmental guy.



But, obviously I am not in charge.

[Cugel]

The interesting thing is that Klis thinks that Alex Smith might be the Qb they are targeting in FA, since Elway might not want to pay top $ to Cousins or the Redskins might manage to re-sign him.

However, he also thinks the Chiefs will want more to trade within the division than they might otherwise, perhaps a 1st round pick, which is impossible of course. Even a 2nd rounder is pretty steep for Smith so they might not want to pay that.

The Chiefs beat writer was on The Fan yesterday and said he didn't think Andy Reid is concerned about trading Alex Smith, even within the division, although I can't imagine he's going to be willing to help out the Broncos in their desperate search for a starting QB. I wouldn't if I were Reid and had two choices: one, a trade to Denver, two a trade to Cleveland.

Their fans were polled and overwhelmingly want the Chiefs to trade Smith to Cleveland even if that meant taking Cleveland's 3rd round pick in preference to Denver's second, so it will be a big public relations problem for with their fans criticizing the team if they trade Smith within the division. It will NOT be a popular move and a lot of their fans will be screaming mad about it. I don't know if Reid cares about this, but it will be a constant headache all season long if Alex Smith is winning games for the Broncos.

For as long as Smith is keeping the Broncos in contention within the division Chiefs fans would be complaining about the "stupidity" of Andy Reid in trading him to the Broncos. As Denver fans would be chortling. That alone should convince Reid not to consider the trade unless he really thinks Smith is washed up. Well, he led them to the division title and played well in the playoffs, although they lost again of course.

Alex Smith might not win any SBs, but he's competent enough to get a mediocre Chiefs team to the playoffs, and that team is not really much, if any better than the Broncos in terms of overall talent.

They have a much better offense of course, but the Broncos defense is better. It might not be much longer though if they lose Talib which Klis thinks is virtually certain to happen. The highest paid players are Von, Talib, Harris and Roby in that order.

[EastCoastBronco]

Can you imagine if Tom Brady had been a rookie on our team and gotten his first shot behind the shitty O-Line we have?
He would be an afterthought in the pages of NFL history.
It's all about the line, people.
QB's cannot be properly evaluated behind the ******* mess we have.
You can't just drop a solid QB behind a shitty O-Line and expect miracles.
Players with the talent of a young Elway, which made the crappy O-Line we had then less glaring, only come around once every 30 years.

[CoachChaz]

Can you imagine if Tom Brady had been a rookie on our team and gotten his first shot behind the shitty O-Line we have?
He would be an afterthought in the pages of NFL history.
It's all about the line, people.
QB's cannot be properly evaluated behind the ******* mess we have.
You can't just drop a solid QB behind a shitty O-Line and expect miracles.
Players with the talent of a young Elway, which made the crappy O-Line we had then less glaring, only come around once every 30 years.


Every QB left in the playoffs has been playing behind a mediocre to not very good OL all season.

[EastCoastBronco]

Sacks allowed 2017:

Denver: 52
Philly: 36
New England: 35
Minnesota: 27
Jacksonville: 24

[CoachChaz]

Sacks allowed 2017:

Denver: 52
Philly: 36
New England: 35
Minnesota: 27
Jacksonville: 24

Think some of that might also have to do with a QB decision to get rid of the ball? Siemian might be the king of holding on too long and taking a sack.

There is no doubt that we need upgrades in 2 of the 5 spots on the line, but I have a hard time believing that even if we plugged All-Pros into those 2 spots that any of our QB's would have had significantly improved numbers. Bottom line is...regardless of the quality of our OL, Our QB's suck.

[Freyaka]

Sacks allowed 2017:

Denver: 52
Philly: 36
New England: 35
Minnesota: 27
Jacksonville: 24

Bad o-line isn't the only thing that causes sacks. Idiotic QB's holding the ball far too long causes it too. Our o-line isn't NEARLY as bad as those numbers make it seem.

[EastCoastBronco]

I have no doubt that some of it is QB decision.
My point is that I don't think we will ever know what we had in our current crop of QB's because they were running for their lives 90% of the time instead of learning to read progressions and defences.

[Freyaka]

I have no doubt that some of it is QB decision.
My point is that I don't think we will ever know what we had in our current crop of QB's because they were running for their lives 90% of the time instead of learning to read progressions and defences.

Tell that to Carson Wentz. His line was awful all year too and yet he had a season that had he not gotten injured would have undoubtably landed him MVP honors.

A good QB overcomes a bad line. We don't have good QB's. You can be a young QB and play well behind a bad line, guys like Russell Wilson and Wentz help show that, our young guys suck.

[CoachChaz]

I have no doubt that some of it is QB decision.
My point is that I don't think we will ever know what we had in our current crop of QB's because they were running for their lives 90% of the time instead of learning to read progressions and defences.

I disagree. I think we know what we have. Our OL was even worse when we won a Super Bowl with an ever lesser mobile QB past his prime in Manning. The difference was he had the instincts to get rid of the ball.

[EastCoastBronco]

So you are saying that it is the ability to scramble that makes them good QB's?
If that is the criteria we are judging by then yes, our QB's suck.

[Freyaka]

So you are saying that it is the ability to scramble that makes them good QB's?
If that is the criteria we are judging by then yes, our QB's suck.

It's more than "the ability to scramble" it's making smart choices with the ball and not putting yourself in a bad situation.

Trevor's a great fricken example... I was at the game in KC, the dooosh canoe was floating out of the pocket into the hands of defenders...Half the time he had a clear enough pocket that he could have simply stepped up one step, missed the defender and get the pass off, instead he drifts from side to side right into an edge rusher.

The one time the brainiac DID step up into the pocket he just kept stepped well past the clean area of the pocket right into his own lineman.

It's not even the ability to scramble, it's the ability to not be a colossal moron (which should be saying a hell of a lot considering how much slack I cut that idiot all year)

[Poet]

A lot of it has to do with recognizing defenses, proper audibles and hot routes, feeling the pressure, etc. These are the fundamental reasons why guys like Manning and Brady could have bad lines and still not get sacked as often as lesser QB's with better lines.

[EastCoastBronco]

You talked me into it.
If we are not going to make the O-Line a priority then I'm officially on the mobile QB band wagon.
Are there any good ones out there?

I think Andrew luck was a good mobile, scrambling QB that everybody drooled over...until he got pummeled into submission due to lack of protection.

[dogfish]

So you are saying that it is the ability to scramble that makes them good QB's?
If that is the criteria we are judging by then yes, our QB's suck.

it's more about having pocket presence, pocket mobility, and a clock in their head. . . trevor in particular consistently drifts right out the back of the pocket, so he's running into the edge rushers rather than letting the OTs do their job and push those guys wide of the pocket. . . the line is supposed to give the QB a few seconds, and the ball is supposed to come out on time. . . he has to know when to get rid of it if nothing's there, and our guys don't do that-- they stand there and take the sack instead. . . we all know the line needs to be better, but putting it all on them is an oversimplification. . . we don't necessarily need a scrambling QB, per se-- just a guy who has some awareness. . .

[Freyaka]

You talked me into it.
If we are not going to make the O-Line a priority then I'm officially on the mobile QB band wagon.
Are there any good ones out there?

I think Andrew luck was a good mobile, scrambling QB that everybody drooled over...until he got pummeled into submission due to lack of protection.

We didn't talk you into anything because neither of us said anything about needing a mobile QB...

Our issues have nothing at all to do with "mobile QB's" and everything to do with smart QB's. Ideally, the job of the interior o-line is to create a safe area the QB can briefly linger in, the job of the tackles is to push the edge rushers to the side and away from that pocket. This buy's the QB more time. Our o-line isn't terrible at creating a pocket, you can see a semi-stable pocket on most plays. We need tackles that are better at pushing the DE around, but the pocket is usually there. MANY of the sacks we took this year were completely avoidable. All Trevor had to do was step into the safe zone created by the interior line, instead he drifts into the lane where the tackles are pushing the edge rushers.

It has zip, zero, zilch to do with mobility. It's a lack of pocket awareness and the ability to get rid of the ball quickly enough to avoid the pocket collapsing on you. Mobility can certainly help, but that's not what the issue is. The issue is we have a group of dumb asses that have no ability to feel when a rusher is breathing down their neck.

The other issue is a good QB can look at the defense and read where the pressure is coming from and adjust the blocking protection to match and once again, we don't have a good QB on this roster currently.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Well, he obviously has the strength to make all the throws. People assume it's not because of his size, but if you watch enough of him, he drops 50 yard passes off of his back foot. What impresses me the most is his accuracy while on the run. NCAA QB's dont throw into too many windows in college, but the way he can disctate location when he's moving is impressive and leads me to believe the accuracy will translate to the NFL.

IMO, the only question marks with Mayfield have to do with peronality (which I think will be fine), and height/size (which plenty of QB's have proven is not a problem)

When removing off the field issues, how does he compare to Manziel as a qb, specifically who has more arm talent?

[CoachChaz]

When removing off the field issues, how does he compare to Manziel as a qb, specifically who has more arm talent?

I would give Mayfield the edge, but let's not let off field issues cloud that particular discussion. Manziel actually had decent accuracy. He even displayed it with Clevelend. That being said, the system that Sumlin ran for Manziel was very QB friendly and almost like an old Glanville run and shoot type of offense. Quite honestly, I'm surprised Manziel did as well as he did in his brief NFL stint.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I would give Mayfield the edge, but let's not let off field issues cloud that particular discussion. Manziel actually had decent accuracy. He even displayed it with Clevelend. That being said, the system that Sumlin ran for Manziel was very QB friendly and almost like an old Glanville run and shoot type of offense. Quite honestly, I'm surprised Manziel did as well as he did in his brief NFL stint.

That’s an interesting take because I remember you being high on Manziel. Manziel would have had a shot if he wasn’t so immature.
I’ve honestly not watched Mayfield. The only film I’ve seen is one with a cop having a faster 40 time :D

[Cugel]

It has zip, zero, zilch to do with mobility. It's a lack of pocket awareness and the ability to get rid of the ball quickly enough to avoid the pocket collapsing on you. Mobility can certainly help, but that's not what the issue is. The issue is we have a group of dumb asses that have no ability to feel when a rusher is breathing down their neck.

The other issue is a good QB can look at the defense and read where the pressure is coming from and adjust the blocking protection to match and once again, we don't have a good QB on this roster currently.

For all the blather about how Trevor was a "cerebral" QB who understood the game, he was very slow in games to recognize what was going on the field. You could almost hear the gears creaking in his head, and by the time he was ready to make a decision it was too late.

[Poet]

People thought he was smart because he went to NW. He went to a bad sports school because he wasn't an idiot and had SOME physical talent.

Fools.

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by CoachChaz View Post
I would give Mayfield the edge, but let's not let off field issues cloud that particular discussion. Manziel actually had decent accuracy. He even displayed it with Clevelend. That being said, the system that Sumlin ran for Manziel was very QB friendly and almost like an old Glanville run and shoot type of offense. Quite honestly, I'm surprised Manziel did as well as he did in his brief NFL stint.

The difference is that Allen is a grinder, who loves the game and wants to be great, while Manziel just loved the party lifestyle he could get by being a celebrity QB.

There are other differences of course. Allen's more inaccurate. I have a hard time imagining that anybody is really going to draft him in the top 5. All the physical tools, but also raw as hell.

Sounds like a boom-bust guy who will either be great or wash out of the league in a few years.

Pass. :coffee:

[Broncoknight30]

The difference is that Allen is a grinder, who loves the game and wants to be great, while Manziel just loved the party lifestyle he could get by being a celebrity QB.

There are other differences of course. Allen's more inaccurate. I have a hard time imagining that anybody is really going to draft him in the top 5. All the physical tools, but also raw as hell.

Sounds like a boom-bust guy who will either be great or wash out of the league in a few years.

Pass. :coffee:

I don't think anyone has ever come into the game more passionate about winning than Tim Tebow.

Then again, I still think Tebow COULD HAVE been great IF he did not listen to everyone about overly tinkering with his throwing motion. I remember seeing Joe Montana talking about it and he sort of called that he does not really need to break his throwing motion completely down.

That is another issue. The point is Tebow had more passion for the game, than ANYONE we have ever seen, let alone a QB.

[Buff]

The more I think about it - the more the Kirk Cousins plan worries me.

My main concern is that we're overestimating the overall quality of the team and hoping for the quick fix/path of least resistance to get back to the Super Bowl. Should the defense revert to league average, and then we pay top dollar for a slightly above average QB - that kind of leaves us stuck in purgatory as an average team.

I also have Scot McCloughan in my head “He’s a good player,” McCloughan told Mike Pritchard and Cecil Lammey. “Is he special? I don’t see special."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2018/01/19/scot-mccloughan-on-redskins-quarterback-kirk-cousins-i-dont-see-special/?utm_term=.75b491b0e805

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

The more I think about it - the more the Kirk Cousins plan worries me.

My main concern is that we're overestimating the overall quality of the team and hoping for the quick fix/path of least resistance to get back to the Super Bowl. Should the defense revert to league average, and then we pay top dollar for a slightly above average QB - that kind of leaves us stuck in purgatory as an average team.

I also have Scot McCloughan in my head “He’s a good player,” McCloughan told Mike Pritchard and Cecil Lammey. “Is he special? I don’t see special."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2018/01/19/scot-mccloughan-on-redskins-quarterback-kirk-cousins-i-dont-see-special/?utm_term=.75b491b0e805

Yeah, I just done see a better option any time soon. We were 14-15 years between Elway and Manning.

I still think we can fill holes in FA if we have a quarterback who doesn’t habitually give the ball to the other team

[dogfish]

The more I think about it - the more the Kirk Cousins plan worries me.

My main concern is that we're overestimating the overall quality of the team and hoping for the quick fix/path of least resistance to get back to the Super Bowl. Should the defense revert to league average, and then we pay top dollar for a slightly above average QB - that kind of leaves us stuck in purgatory as an average team.

I also have Scot McCloughan in my head “He’s a good player,” McCloughan told Mike Pritchard and Cecil Lammey. “Is he special? I don’t see special."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2018/01/19/scot-mccloughan-on-redskins-quarterback-kirk-cousins-i-dont-see-special/?utm_term=.75b491b0e805

i don't necessarily think you're wrong-- i worry about that also. . . ultimately, it's a risk-reward analysis, like everything. . . how high are our odds of doing better with a draft pick, vs. the risk of drafting another complete bust like packin' lunch, and having no quarterback as opposed to a less than elite one? for a team that has sucked ass at drafting QBs, do you swing for the fences again, or take the safe route back to respectability with the proven commodity? it's a legitimately tough question. . .

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Yeah, I just done see a better option any time soon. We were 14-15 years between Elway and Manning.

I still think we can fill holes in FA if we have a quarterback who doesn’t habitually give the ball to the other team

It’s so much more than that. If we can sign Cousins we have great draft position to sign impact players who can make a difference right away. How awesome would it be to sign Cousins, draft Nelson at 5, then get McGlinchey or Brown to play RT at the top of the second? It could completely revamp our offense.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

It’s so much more than that. If we can sign Cousins we have great draft position to sign impact players who can make a difference right away. How awesome would it be to sign Cousins, draft Nelson at 5, then get McGlinchey or Brown to play RT at the top of the second? It could completely revamp our offense.

Exactly, it also helps to attract FA’s when your quarterback doesn’t suck.

Also, it’s really been 3 years since we’ve had a decent quarterback. Manning was awful his last year.

[Cugel]

I don't think anyone has ever come into the game more passionate about winning than Tim Tebow.

Then again, I still think Tebow COULD HAVE been great IF he did not listen to everyone about overly tinkering with his throwing motion. I remember seeing Joe Montana talking about it and he sort of called that he does not really need to break his throwing motion completely down.

That is another issue. The point is Tebow had more passion for the game, than ANYONE we have ever seen, let alone a QB.

You have a good point about Tebow. But, he could never have been successful because he was wildly inaccurate and would throw the ball into the seats, 15 yards away from his WR.

They tried to get him to become a useful NFL QB in both NY and NE and finally in Philadelphia and nobody could do it. If it were possible, someone would have succeeded. He just sucked. Period. He had one fluke season and that was that.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

The more I think about it, the more I think we’re screwed in the QB race. Let’s think about this objectively. What teams need a QB more than anything?
Broncos
Jets
Browns

What teams will also need a QB if their starter isn’t re-signed or is released because they want to upgrade?
Redskins
Bills
Vikings
Jaguars

What other teams might be looking to add a QB in the draft due to the age/mileage of their current starter?
Chargers
Saints
Giants

So, looking at that list and the potential veteran QBs that might be had:
Cousins- maybe FA, might get the tag and take a trade to get
Smith- will take a trade to get, and won’t come cheap
Taylor- under contract and will take a trade to get unless released
Keenum/Bradford/Bridgewater- one will be resigned or franchised, 2 have major injury concerns.

Then there’s the 4 “1st round” graded (5 if you add Jackson) QBs in the draft.

Honestly, what makes any of us really think we’re gonna get anyone or especially the one we want? In those scenarios, it’s pretty easy to see teams with more firepower to sign/trade for FAs and move up in the draft to get a QB if they want one. I’m very concerned that Cousins is a pipe dream and that 3 of the four top drafts led will begins before we pick.

I’m going to be very disappointed if we cut guys like Talib and Sanders and all we get out of it is Tyrod Taylor and some project QB. Unfortunately, that’s likely the scenario we’re facing.

[CoachChaz]

The more I think about it, the more I think we’re screwed in the QB race. Let’s think about this objectively. What teams need a QB more than anything?
Broncos
Jets
Browns

What teams will also need a QB if their starter isn’t re-signed or is released because they want to upgrade?
Redskins
Bills
Vikings
Jaguars

What other teams might be looking to add a QB in the draft due to the age/mileage of their current starter?
Chargers
Saints
Giants

So, looking at that list and the potential veteran QBs that might be had:
Cousins- maybe FA, might get the tag and take a trade to get
Smith- will take a trade to get, and won’t come cheap
Taylor- under contract and will take a trade to get unless released
Keenum/Bradford/Bridgewater- one will be resigned or franchised, 2 have major injury concerns.

Then there’s the 4 “1st round” graded (5 if you add Jackson) QBs in the draft.

Honestly, what makes any of us really think we’re gonna get anyone or especially the one we want? In those scenarios, it’s pretty easy to see teams with more firepower to sign/trade for FAs and move up in the draft to get a QB if they want one. I’m very concerned that Cousins is a pipe dream and that 3 of the four top drafts led will begins before we pick.

I’m going to be very disappointed if we cut guys like Talib and Sanders and all we get out of it is Tyrod Taylor and some project QB. Unfortunately, that’s likely the scenario we’re facing.

You listed 10 teams potentially looking for a QB in a market including 11 QB's. Of those 10 only 2 have a draft pick ahead of us (NYG, CLE) and only 3 have a "desperate" need to fill an open QB position (CLE, NYJ, AZ). So, let's play process of elimination...

NO - Have Brees and a pick in the 20's. No ammo to trade ahead of us and no cap space to sign a Cousins, etc.
SD - Rivers still has a few years left in him and they have needs on the OL that, if filled, will potentially make them a winning team in 2018
MIN - Even if they dont work out something long term with Keenum, they have 2 other QB's they can get a deal done with
JAX - Bortles played well enough and almost got them to a Super Bowl. An upgrade would be nice, but not an immediate need. Bottom 4 draft slot.
BUF - Taylor still under contract and they have picks 21 & 22. They'd have to package both to move ahead of us in the draft
WAS - First dibs on Cousins and not drafting until #13 if they cant keep him.
NYG - I'm still not convinced this is a landing spot for a QB draft pick. New coaches are always pressured to win immediately and with Eli still there, Improving the OL or backfield would be a wiser priority to accomplish more immediate wins.

So, that leaves up to 3 teams competing for a top FA and up to 3 teams competing for top draft picks. If there are 5 1st round QB's and 1 top FA to fill those spots, we are in a much better scenario than "Taylor and a project".

[VonDoom]

Well, this makes things interesting in the QB market. One big domino down, and obviously the Redskins will not attempt to keep Cousins now ...


Ian Rapoport
‏Verified account @RapSheet
11m11 minutes ago

There is an agreement in principle for Alex Smith to go to the #Redskins. The deal will be finalized tomorrow. This means Kirk Cousins will be a free agent. Mega-deal.

[chazoe60]

Well, this makes things interesting in the QB market. One big domino down, and obviously the Redskins will not attempt to keep Cousins now ...


Ian Rapoport
‏Verified account @RapSheet
11m11 minutes ago

There is an agreement in principle for Alex Smith to go to the #Redskins. The deal will be finalized tomorrow. This means Kirk Cousins will be a free agent. Mega-deal.

Fake. Teams can't even start discussing this stuff yet.


Nevermind, I guess I'm wrong. I thought teams couldn't do trades til March.

[Northman]

Fake. Teams can't even start discussing this stuff yet.


Nevermind, I guess I'm wrong. I thought teams couldn't do trades til March.

They cant finalize until March but they can discuss things in principle before hand.

[Freyaka]

Fake. Teams can't even start discussing this stuff yet.


Nevermind, I guess I'm wrong. I thought teams couldn't do trades til March.

That was my initial reaction. It got posted in our messenger group and I was like "bull" because I thought this crap couldn't happen till March. Apparently, they can do all the legwork now and finalize it in March.

[Cugel]

The more I think about it, the more I think we’re screwed in the QB race. Let’s think about this objectively. What teams need a QB more than anything?
Broncos
Jets
Browns

What teams will also need a QB if their starter isn’t re-signed or is released because they want to upgrade?
Redskins
Bills
Vikings
Jaguars

What other teams might be looking to add a QB in the draft due to the age/mileage of their current starter?
Chargers
Saints
Giants

So, looking at that list and the potential veteran QBs that might be had:
Cousins- maybe FA, might get the tag and take a trade to get
Smith- will take a trade to get, and won’t come cheap
Taylor- under contract and will take a trade to get unless released
Keenum/Bradford/Bridgewater- one will be resigned or franchised, 2 have major injury concerns.

Then there’s the 4 “1st round” graded (5 if you add Jackson) QBs in the draft.

Honestly, what makes any of us really think we’re gonna get anyone or especially the one we want? In those scenarios, it’s pretty easy to see teams with more firepower to sign/trade for FAs and move up in the draft to get a QB if they want one. I’m very concerned that Cousins is a pipe dream and that 3 of the four top drafts led will begins before we pick.

I’m going to be very disappointed if we cut guys like Talib and Sanders and all we get out of it is Tyrod Taylor and some project QB. Unfortunately, that’s likely the scenario we’re facing.

It's not quite as bad as your list:

#1 - Browns are not in the market for Cousins. They have the #1 overall pick and they will draft Darnold or Josh Rosen. They passed on drafting Carson Wentz and have taken years of grief about it ever since. They are determined to get it right this time and not make the same mistake again.

#2 - Giants. Have Eli and are looking to draft Josh Rosen who doesn't want to go to Cleveland and said so. So, they are set at QB for the foreseeable future. Just roll Eli out there until the rookie is ready. NO pressure at all. They are in enviable shape there.

#3 - Jaguars. "Sports Illustrated: Despite Kirk Cousins' availability, Jaguars reportedly sticking with Blake Bortles" (https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/despite-kirk-cousins-availability-jaguars-reportedly-sticking-with-blake-bortles/). Bortles just had surgery on his right wrist. That means his 2018 salary is now fully guaranteed under the terms of the CBA. They cannot cut him now because he's injured, without giving him $19.1m anyway.


"The Jags have $20.1 million in cap space in 2018, according to Spotrac, but that money might be used to fill needs other than quarterback. Because according to NFL.com's Ian Rapoport, Jacksonville remains committed to Bortles."

So, they are out of the Kirk Cousins sweepstakes.

#4 The Chargers aren't in the market for Cousins because they have Phillip Rivers under contract for $20m. There's been ZERO reports from anywhere indicating they would trade him. He's a Charger for life until he shows signs of slowing down.

#5 The Saints aren't getting rid of Drew Brees. He has just placed maximum pressure on them by telling all their fans that "I am a Saint for life!" and doesn't want to leave NO. If they try and trade him now or release him, it will cause a fan riot and their media all love Brees. He's as much a hero in NO as Eli is in NY and we all saw how the media and fans and former Giants players reacted to benching Eli. The blowback was so intense they ended up firing the coach and GM!

They will have to figure out how to pay him. Anyway Brees is a HOF QB and Cousins isn't (yet anyway) so that's certainly not a landing spot!

#6 - Redskins are obviously getting Alex Smith which eliminates all possibility of trying to trade Cousins or re-sign him. He would not sign any contract tender with them since all he has to do is wait until the start of FA and he's unrestricted.

#7 - Jets remain a possibility, because they have a boat-load of cap room. But, they are also the Jets which means they will suck. When were they last in a SB? Oh, yeah, Joe Namath. So, unless they just dramatically out-bid everybody else he's probably not going there.

#8 Vikings remain a possibility, but they still love Teddy Bridgewater who was their franchise QB until he got hurt. He's also a lot younger and cheaper than Cousins. He's only had 3 years in the league prior to injury so he's a lot younger and the word is they will re-sign him, and release Bradford and Keenum, whose play in the NFC Championship made him expendable again.

Odds are they re-sign Bridgewater, and possibly keep Sam Bradford around for 1 more year as a backup, if they can work out a reasonable price tag for that. If Bridgewater passes their physical exam that could be exactly what they do. If not, then possibly they would be interested in Cousins. But, they are not desperate like the Jets and Broncos.

#9 - One TOP landing spot you didn't mention: the Cardinals who have a group of veterans ready to win now, and no QB. It would not be a surprise if he wound up in AZ.

[Cugel]

You listed 10 teams potentially looking for a QB in a market including 11 QB's. Of those 10 only 2 have a draft pick ahead of us (NYG, CLE) and only 3 have a "desperate" need to fill an open QB position (CLE, NYJ, AZ). So, let's play process of elimination...

NO - Have Brees and a pick in the 20's. No ammo to trade ahead of us and no cap space to sign a Cousins, etc.
SD - Rivers still has a few years left in him and they have needs on the OL that, if filled, will potentially make them a winning team in 2018
MIN - Even if they dont work out something long term with Keenum, they have 2 other QB's they can get a deal done with
JAX - Bortles played well enough and almost got them to a Super Bowl. An upgrade would be nice, but not an immediate need. Bottom 4 draft slot.
BUF - Taylor still under contract and they have picks 21 & 22. They'd have to package both to move ahead of us in the draft
WAS - First dibs on Cousins and not drafting until #13 if they cant keep him.
NYG - I'm still not convinced this is a landing spot for a QB draft pick. New coaches are always pressured to win immediately and with Eli still there, Improving the OL or backfield would be a wiser priority to accomplish more immediate wins.

So, that leaves up to 3 teams competing for a top FA and up to 3 teams competing for top draft picks. If there are 5 1st round QB's and 1 top FA to fill those spots, we are in a much better scenario than "Taylor and a project".

Coach Chaz makes many of the same points that struck me:

NO: If they can afford close to $30m for a QB it will be Brees, not Cousins. If they did take Cousins, Denver would instantly become the target for Brees to land.

SD: Has a LOT Of needs. Their defense isn't great outside Joey Bosa. They could use more talent on their OL. They just need a few pieces and they feel they are the best team in the division this year - WITH Rivers. They could easily be right.

The place where Chaz goes wrong is in thinking that a team would have to trade for Cousins. The Redskins cannot trade Cousins because he's not under contract. He would have to sign a new deal with the Redskins in order for them to be able to trade him, but he won't do that because he just has to wait until March to be unrestricted.

Their only leverage over him would be to franchise tag him at $34m, but they can't do that now that they have dealt for Smith.


The Redskins can't trade Kirk Cousins now and here's why (http://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/redskins-cant-trade-kirk-cousins-now-and-heres-why?amp)

As was discussed over the past days, the only way the Redskins could trade Cousins would be to apply either the franchise tag or the transition tag and have him sign it. That would put Cousins under contract to the Redskins for one year and they could have worked out a deal with another team.

But part of the problem is money. The Redskins will have about $35 million in salary cap space after Smith’s $17 million cap number factors into the equation. The tags go against the cap immediately so the $35 million for the franchise tag or the $29 million for transition tag would have created a cap squeeze. For example, they would have been unable to use any cap space to lock up their own free agents, players like Zach Brown.

The cap hit would go away after a trade was executed but even so there is another major sticking point. Any sign and trade deal would require Cousins’ cooperation and he now has no incentive to cooperate. He might have gone along with it to ensure that he got to a new destination this year. If he didn’t cooperate, he could have remained in Washington on a tag for a third straight year.

But now, the threat of forcing Cousins to spend another year in limbo is off the table. If they did tag Cousins, he could simply sign the tag and say he’s looking forward to offseason workouts. That would put the Redskins in a sticky situation with both Smith and Cousins under contract.

On top of that, why would Cousins agree to a trade, something that would take players and/or draft picks away from the team he is about to join?

There were a lot of obstacles to executing a tag and trade before the Smith trade. After the deal, they become insurmountable. The Redskins will have to settle for the 2019 third-round compensatory pick they will get when Cousins signs with a new team.

[Cugel]

All the talk about trading Cousins ignored the reality that Kirk Cousins had ZERO incentive to cooperate with the Redskins in trading him. He can just sit there, hit FA and choose his own team with zero compensation to the Redskins, and that's exactly what he will do, unless they franchise him, which is now off the table. (The transition tag doesn't help them either because he would sign that immediately too and then they'd have to pay him $29m).

[Broncoknight30]

All the talk about trading Cousins ignored the reality that Kirk Cousins had ZERO incentive to cooperate with the Redskins in trading him. He can just sit there, hit FA and choose his own team with zero compensation to the Redskins, and that's exactly what he will do, unless they franchise him, which is now off the table. (The transition tag doesn't help them either because he would sign that immediately too and then they'd have to pay him $29m).

All I know about Cousins is he will generate the largest salary of any QB in the league. Not because he is that good, but because of the number of teams going after him. My question still remains about QB salaries and the fallacy that it takes a "franchise QB" to win it. Top 10 highest paid QBs in the league, all are franchise QBs and none of them have won it AFTER breaking the bank.

Again, we can talk about Brady, but he is not relevant to this discussion considering Brady is the 17th highest paid QB in the NFL. No one really talks about that and that is the main issue. Salary, the hard salary cap, and what ONE PLAYER'S contract can do to a team.

Any one player with a large salary hampers teams ability to field teams. This league is not won by elite QBs. They are won by elite TEAMS. That is the fallacy and it is a fallacy to think we need to back up the brinks truck to pay off some QB. When not even Aaron Rodgers has won it since being paid, what are we supposed to think Cousins will do?

The point is the Packers the year they actually won it was number 2 in defense. That was 2010.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/t...0/seasontype/2

The very next year, and every year since they have been at the bottom half of the league.

in 2011, when the Packers needed to prepare for the new contract Rodgers would demand and the price that Brees's 100 million dollar contract caused, the Packers defense went from top of the league to 32nd. That is last in the NFL in one season.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/t...1/seasontype/2

If Rodgers cannot figure out how to get his team to a SB with an average defense, how is Cousins going to do it? Did he do it in Washington? I am not even sure how people say Cousins is under paid. He is in the top 10 paid QBs.

What is that all about? If he thinks he is underpaid now, what exactly is he looking for?

[Broncoknight30]

Coach Chaz makes many of the same points that struck me:

NO: If they can afford close to $30m for a QB it will be Brees, not Cousins. If they did take Cousins, Denver would instantly become the target for Brees to land.

SD: Has a LOT Of needs. Their defense isn't great outside Joey Bosa. They could use more talent on their OL. They just need a few pieces and they feel they are the best team in the division this year - WITH Rivers. They could easily be right.

The place where Chaz goes wrong is in thinking that a team would have to trade for Cousins. The Redskins cannot trade Cousins because he's not under contract. He would have to sign a new deal with the Redskins in order for them to be able to trade him, but he won't do that because he just has to wait until March to be unrestricted.

Their only leverage over him would be to franchise tag him at $34m, but they can't do that now that they have dealt for Smith.

Other than putting up pretty numbers that the ignorant fan seems to love more than championships, what has Brees won since he broke the Saints bank? The defenses have bye and large been historically bad since 2009.

He did have some really really good numbers though. Is that what Broncos fans want? A version of 2008, where the Broncos were 8-8 with the number 2 offense and the worst defense we have ever seen here?

The ONLY COMMON DENOMINATOR every SB champion team has had is a dynamic defense. Bottom line is, if a QB is paid that much money, it typically reflects in a the decline of the defense and/or other crucial areas.

People wonder why the Colts cannot get a team around Luck. People argue it is ALL about the QB. Well, the Colts along with other teams are proving that it is more than that.

[Cugel]

Other than putting up pretty numbers that the ignorant fan seems to love more than championships, what has Brees won since he broke the Saints bank? The defenses have bye and large been historically bad since 2009.

He did have some really really good numbers though. Is that what Broncos fans want? A version of 2008, where the Broncos were 8-8 with the number 2 offense and the worst defense we have ever seen here?

The ONLY COMMON DENOMINATOR every SB champion team has had is a dynamic defense. Bottom line is, if a QB is paid that much money, it typically reflects in a the decline of the defense and/or other crucial areas.

People wonder why the Colts cannot get a team around Luck. People argue it is ALL about the QB. Well, the Colts along with other teams are proving that it is more than that.

No, the Colts are proving that they are run by Jim Irsay and he's a complete moron. Andrew Luck's cap hit is only around $22m in 2018. The reason the Colts suck is that they haven't bothered to field a competitive team around him, particularly offensive line.

As Alfred Williams put it, there are only about 12 teams in the NFL that really want to win SBs and are willing to spend money and make FA moves to do it. The rest of them just want to watch their portfolios increase due to the increasing price of their franchise.

Oh, they'll take a SB victory if it falls in their lap, but they aren't serious about making it happen. The Colts are among that number. They suck.

The Jets are another such team. The Browns are the epitome of that, which is why they have sucked for 25 years. They've changed everything but their owner over the last quarter century - coaches, players, GMs, water boys, everything. Nothing has been the same over that period except ownership.

[Broncoknight30]

No, the Colts are proving that they are run by Jim Irsay and he's a complete moron. Andrew Luck's cap hit is only around $22m in 2018. The reason the Colts suck is that they haven't bothered to field a competitive team around him, particularly offensive line.

As Alfred Williams put it, there are only about 12 teams in the NFL that really want to win SBs and are willing to spend money and make FA moves to do it. The rest of them just want to watch their portfolios increase due to the increasing price of their franchise.

Oh, they'll take a SB victory if it falls in their lap, but they aren't serious about making it happen. The Colts are among that number. They suck.

The Jets are another such team. The Browns are the epitome of that, which is why they have sucked for 25 years. They've changed everything but their owner over the last quarter century - coaches, players, GMs, water boys, everything. Nothing has been the same over that period except ownership.

Oh, no wonder the Packers defense went from 2 to 32 in one year while preparing to match Brees's contract that he had just signed in 2011, and the Packers nor the Saints have been back to the SB since. Neither has any of the top 10 paid QBs since getting paid.

The Browns several times have been suckered in by those Big 12 QBs and their search for a QB continues. How many first round busts did they draft? Couch, Brady Quinn, Weeden? They signed RGIII right?

I thought first round QBs were automatics. I guess not.

No, not one of those QBs among the top 10 have won it since being paid. That is a fact, and this team will suffer the consequences if they pay 30 mil per year to a QB that has also clearly proven that he cannot carry team without a defense.

Cousins is NOT going to be giving little discounts. We can all count on that.

[Poet]

The Packers defense fell off for two seasons because of massive amounts of injuries to the secondary and linebackers. When they moved Mathews to ILB it was because they went through their first two ILB's at that spot. At one point they were down to the nickel corner as their number one player, and that's not counting their two stud DL who got hurt and suspended. The Packers aren't much of an example for what you're talking about.

If the Broncos don't get a QB they were be relegated to irrelevance for quite some time. That might be worth it to take the time to develop someone.

[MOtorboat]

The Packers defense fell off for two seasons because of massive amounts of injuries to the secondary and linebackers. When they moved Mathews to ILB it was because they went through their first two ILB's at that spot. At one point they were down to the nickel corner as their number one player, and that's not counting their two stud DL who got hurt and suspended. The Packers aren't much of an example for what you're talking about.

If the Broncos don't get a QB they were be relegated to irrelevance for quite some time. That might be worth it to take the time to develop someone.

And Charles Woodson retired. I feel like after watching that last season, DeMarcus Ware was the glue.

[Poet]

And Charles Woodson retired. I feel like after watching that last season, DeMarcus Ware was the glue.

Ward hurt the most, IMO. We cut him to save five million dollars and spent it poorly.

[Broncoknight30]

Ward hurt the most, IMO. We cut him to save five million dollars and spent it poorly.

Ward did not have that great an impact imo. He really did not have all that great a season at all in Tampa. The problem was this defense did not generate the same level of pressure as under Philips. Yes, I would say Demarcus Ware was very key in that role under Philips.

Of course, when I see the Rams under Philips go from the bottom of the league in sacks to top 5 in the league in sacks (and turnovers) and the Broncos defense do the EXACT OPPOSITE, I see where the problem is.

Remember the Broncos fired the OLB coach for related reasons. The fact is this staff failed to generate a pass rush and this team had talent on it. They did not use Von Miller creatively. He rushed from the same basic positions. I remember under Philips Miller would rush from several areas.

Anyway, I see the problem in the coaching staff.

Right now, I think the next hot coach could be Frank Reich. Many people are going to be talking his name for next years search.

[Poet]

Ward did not have that great an impact imo. He really did not have all that great a season at all in Tampa. The problem was this defense did not generate the same level of pressure as under Philips. Yes, I would say Demarcus Ware was very key in that role under Philips.

Of course, when I see the Rams under Philips go from the bottom of the league in sacks to top 5 in the league in sacks (and turnovers) and the Broncos defense do the EXACT OPPOSITE, I see where the problem is.

Remember the Broncos fired the OLB coach for related reasons. The fact is this staff failed to generate a pass rush and this team had talent on it. They did not use Von Miller creatively. He rushed from the same basic positions. I remember under Philips Miller would rush from several areas.

Anyway, I see the problem in the coaching staff.

Right now, I think the next hot coach could be Frank Reich. Many people are going to be talking his name for next years search.

Well the secondary couldn't produce turnovers, we lacked leadership, the defense regressed, and the locker room got divided.

The Rams have a lot of horses on defense, too, BK. But I didn't want to see WP go - I love that guy.

[Jsteve01]

Well the secondary couldn't produce turnovers, we lacked leadership, the defense regressed, and the locker room got divided.

The Rams have a lot of horses on defense, too, BK. But I didn't want to see WP go - I love that guy.

Losing Phillips was idiotic. We let a known commodity go for a few bucks because we were concerned about losing Woods. My Philosophy when building a staff has always been that I would prefer the Phillips type coordinator over the young hot shot. Because he's going to stay put. He would have loved to retire a Bronco. You've only got two options with Woods. Either he stinks it up, or e ends up being really good and we lose him after a year or two the same way we did with Alan the same way we did with McCoy the same way we did with Del Rio. It doesn't seem to be rocket science to me. Wade Phillips won the Broncos a Superbowl. The big issue last year or should I say 2016 was run defense. They fix that with a semi healthy wolf Peko, and gotsis gaining a little seasoning. The problem with young guys in any management position as they always want to change stuff that doesn't need changed. The old if it ain't broke don't fix it adage comes into play. As soon as I heard Woods talking about all the little tweaks that he was going to make to the team I knew that he wanted to put his stamp on something that didn't necessarily need a whole lot of tweaking.

[dogfish]

Losing Phillips was idiotic. We let a known commodity go for a few bucks because we were concerned about losing Woods. My Philosophy when building a staff has always been that I would prefer the Phillips type coordinator over the young hot shot. Because he's going to stay put. He would have loved to retire a Bronco. You've only got two options with Woods. Either he stinks it up, or e ends up being really good and we lose him after a year or two the same way we did with Alan the same way we did with McCoy the same way we did with Del Rio. It doesn't seem to be rocket science to me. Wade Phillips won the Broncos a Superbowl. The big issue last year or should I say 2016 was run defense. They fix that with a semi healthy wolf Peko, and gotsis gaining a little seasoning. The problem with young guys in any management position as they always want to change stuff that doesn't need changed. The old if it ain't broke don't fix it adage comes into play. As soon as I heard Woods talking about all the little tweaks that he was going to make to the team I knew that he wanted to put his stamp on something that didn't necessarily need a whole lot of tweaking.

preach!

[Cugel]

Losing Phillips was idiotic. We let a known commodity go for a few bucks because we were concerned about losing Woods. My Philosophy when building a staff has always been that I would prefer the Phillips type coordinator over the young hot shot. Because he's going to stay put. He would have loved to retire a Bronco. You've only got two options with Woods. Either he stinks it up, or e ends up being really good and we lose him after a year or two the same way we did with Alan the same way we did with McCoy the same way we did with Del Rio. It doesn't seem to be rocket science to me. Wade Phillips won the Broncos a Superbowl. The big issue last year or should I say 2016 was run defense. They fix that with a semi healthy wolf Peko, and gotsis gaining a little seasoning. The problem with young guys in any management position as they always want to change stuff that doesn't need changed. The old if it ain't broke don't fix it adage comes into play. As soon as I heard Woods talking about all the little tweaks that he was going to make to the team I knew that he wanted to put his stamp on something that didn't necessarily need a whole lot of tweaking.

Apparently Wade wanted to be the highest or close to the highest DC in football and they didn't want to pay him top $. Joe Woods was the up and coming guy. Perhaps Elway would consider him as a possible replacement for VJ if VJ flamed out?

I don't know what screwy machinations were going on in John Elway's head, but they don't seem to have panned out. Rather like his QB draft selections!

It's always a good practice to promote from within your organization, if you can do it successfully. But, when you have a veteran coach who wants to stay and he's doing the job, don't get rid of him and expect exactly the same results with some inexperienced first year DC.

Of course they also lost Malik Jackson, Danny Trevathan and TJ Ward off that SB 50 starting lineup as well as DeMarcus Ware. Of course the defense isn't the same as it was. That's 4 (5 with Talib) starters out of 11 different!

[Broncoknight30]

Apparently Wade wanted to be the highest or close to the highest DC in football and they didn't want to pay him top $. Joe Woods was the up and coming guy. Perhaps Elway would consider him as a possible replacement for VJ if VJ flamed out?

I don't know what screwy machinations were going on in John Elway's head, but they don't seem to have panned out. Rather like his QB draft selections!

It's always a good practice to promote from within your organization, if you can do it successfully. But, when you have a veteran coach who wants to stay and he's doing the job, don't get rid of him and expect exactly the same results with some inexperienced first year DC.

Of course they also lost Malik Jackson, Danny Trevathan and TJ Ward off that SB 50 starting lineup as well as DeMarcus Ware. Of course the defense isn't the same as it was. That's 4 (5 with Talib) starters out of 11 different!

The simple fact is Wade Phiips EARNED that here. If there was a coordinator that deserved to be the highest paid coordinator (offense or defense) it was Philips.

The other part about that is rather big imo was he was not aspiring to be a head coach. He is done with that. He may have had 4 or 5 years left here.

No excuse for letting him go. None.

[UnderArmour]

The simple fact is Wade Phiips EARNED that here. If there was a coordinator that deserved to be the highest paid coordinator (offense or defense) it was Philips.

The other part about that is rather big imo was he was not aspiring to be a head coach. He is done with that. He may have had 4 or 5 years left here.

No excuse for letting him go. None.

Yeah, but how did Wade Phillips run practice?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Wade is an old man who wanted to be close to his son. I don’t think he was forced out

[Cugel]

Wade is an old man who wanted to be close to his son. I don’t think he was forced out

He said in interviews he wanted to stay, but Elway did not renew his contract. He wanted to be either the highest paid or close to the highest paid DC and he got that contract with the Rams.

Bottom line: Coaches salaries don't count against the salary cap, so the only reason to scrimp and save on coaching salaries is cheapness. Joe Ellis and John Elway did not value Wade or thought keeping Joe Woods was a higher priority for some reason.

It makes ZERO sense though. If Joe Woods turns out to be a dynamic DC at some point, he will want and get a head coaching job in the NFL. So, what was the point in keeping him for a couple of seasons when you could have had Wade for the same time and he would never take a head coaching job? It makes no sense at all!

Of course, if the defense continues to decline, Woods won't get that job, but then why would they want him here?

[Broncoknight30]

Well, now that the AJ McCaron discussion should be heating up, I would certainly prefer him over Kirk Cousins large ass salary. I have been on Bengals boards, and I have a couple of friends who are big Bengals fans. Not that should mean anything at all, but I would say as much as 90% of them think McCaron is better than Dalton. Or, at the very least wish McCaron would be the starter over Dalton. To me that is somewhat telling. In his few starts he has had, he has shown promise. That is true.


I would take McCaron and his relatively lesser salary than what Cousins IS GOING TO GET. I know this discussion is an old one, but based on what we read yesterday, it should be heating up again.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/02/14/broncos-may-make-a-run-at-a-j-mccarron-if-hes-an-unrestricted-free-agent/

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Well, now that the AJ McCaron discussion should be heating up, I would certainly prefer him over Kirk Cousins large ass salary. I have been on Bengals boards, and I have a couple of friends who are big Bengals fans. Not that should mean anything at all, but I would say as much as 90% of them think McCaron is better than Dalton. Or, at the very least wish McCaron would be the starter over Dalton. To me that is somewhat telling. In his few starts he has had, he has shown promise. That is true.


I would take McCaron and his relatively lesser salary than what Cousins IS GOING TO GET. I know this discussion is an old one, but based on what we read yesterday, it should be heating up again.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/02/14/broncos-may-make-a-run-at-a-j-mccarron-if-hes-an-unrestricted-free-agent/

I don’t think McCarron is better than Dalton. I think it’s a Siemian/Lynch scenario in that the starter isn’t good so the backup must be better, which we all know is false, they both suck. McCarron has never beat Dalton for the start, ever. Don’t give me the “franchise QB” line either because if McCarron was better he’d start. He was a serviceable backup for a few games where they’d already clinched the playoffs and had a very good squad behind him when Dalton got hurt.

Seriously, WTF has McCarron done to warrant a big contract? The guy has started 3 games. The problem is, he’s going to get big money because QBs are at a premium. Like dog said, Mike Glennon type money. That’s a bigger risk than dropping the #5 overall pick on a rookie. No to another journeyman backup! Cousins or the draft. That is all.

[underrated29]

Aj sucks. Way overrated. Do not want

[Poet]

Aj sucks. Way overrated. Do not want

He is not the answer.

[dogfish]

He is not the answer.

unless the question is how can we suck again next year. . .

[Poet]

unless the question is how can we suck again next year. . .

He would probably be a more consistent version of TS - he, like most human beings, are tougher than TS. But a better version of TS is just a D+ grade.

[Broncoknight30]

McCaron has not had a real shot and in 2015, with 3 starts, he loked decent. Better than Cam Newton against that same Broncos defense.


https://youtu.be/0E7vZv_0KuM

He had a decent game. On the road, very hostile environment. For the money. That is more of an issue than many of you are acknowledging.

[Poet]

He also shit the bed in the playoffs against the Steelers, struggled to read defenses, and was drafted as high as he was because of his pedigree at Alabama. Cincinnati signed Dalton to a contract that they could have dumped at any time - it was similar to the Kaepernick deal that happened just beforehand. The Bengals never seriously considered letting McCarron run the team, even this season when Dalton was absolutely putrid.

The Browns HC, Hue Jackson, backed out of a deal for him at the last second. There have been few rumors about teams wanting to trade for McCarron. In other words, the team that knows him best likes him enough to keep him around as a backup, but nothing more. Is he the worst guy around? No. But he's a guy, nothing more or less, at least to me.

If we're looking for a young guy to be the man, it's not him. McCarron might have had some appeal when the defense was at its strongest. JMO.

[Freyaka]

McCaron has not had a real shot and in 2015, with 3 starts, he loked decent. Better than Cam Newton against that same Broncos defense.


https://youtu.be/0E7vZv_0KuM

He had a decent game. On the road, very hostile environment. For the money. That is more of an issue than many of you are acknowledging.

Then why couldn't he beat out Andy Dalton?

[EastCoastBronco]

Dalton and Lewis both have dirt on the Bengals owner.
It's the only plausible explanation for why either of them are still in Cinci...

[underrated29]

McCaron has not had a real shot and in 2015, with 3 starts, he loked decent. Better than Cam Newton against that same Broncos defense.


https://youtu.be/0E7vZv_0KuM

He had a decent game. On the road, very hostile environment. For the money. That is more of an issue than many of you are acknowledging.



He also didnt score a point after half time. He also didnt cross our 40 yard line after half. I am pretty sure we had talib or harris and both safties?? out that game. We had a guy or two missing. Once we left zone he blew ass. Also, if you remember, he only had a bunch of High sideline throws that his WR made amazing plays on. Also, I feel like they ran all over us that game. Didnt they get a couple drives started in our zone from an INT?

[Freyaka]

He also didnt score a point after half time. He also didnt cross our 40 yard line after half. I am pretty sure we had talib or harris and both safties?? out that game. We had a guy or two missing. Once we left zone he blew ass. Also, if you remember, he only had a bunch of High sideline throws that his WR made amazing plays on. Also, I feel like they ran all over us that game. Didnt they get a couple drives started in our zone from an INT?

He was benefiting from having tall ass TE's that could athletically jump up and get his air balls. He actually didn't play good, his TE's bailed him the heck out and made him look better than he actually was if I recall.

[Poet]

Green beat Talib on a TD. McCarron had a couple of nice throws. After the second half when Cincinnati couldn't run the ball, and after Harris was on Green, it ended.

[Broncoknight30]

Green beat Talib on a TD. McCarron had a couple of nice throws. After the second half when Cincinnati couldn't run the ball, and after Harris was on Green, it ended.

Brady did worse. He did. Just sayin.

You are still not acknowledging the money issue.

[dogfish]

AJ sucks nuts, but think of all the money we could save!!1!11!

[underrated29]

And we could save the most amount of money by drafting Baker Mayfield at 5.

And blow our wad on OG, OT, RB, vet QB, CB, ILB, DE
Buuuuuuuuut if/when mayfield sucks then we are back to square 1 (which is where we are at with AJ).Id rather start Machine gun Kelly! and draft us a Chubby!

[chazoe60]

Big Al is such a moron. That idiot is stumping hard for AJ or Lamar Jackson. He thinks we should draft Jackson at 5. Good Lord, that kid is as inaccurate as PL. We could draft Jackson in the 3rd and move to WR, that's the only way I want him on the team.

[Broncoknight30]

AJ sucks nuts, but think of all the money we could save!!1!11!

Better than anything on the roster.

[Poet]

Big Al is such a moron. That idiot is stumping hard for AJ or Lamar Jackson. He thinks we should draft Jackson at 5. Good Lord, that kid is as inaccurate as PL. We could draft Jackson in the 3rd and move to WR, that's the only way I want him on the team.

LJ's accuracy has improved each season. He's a late first rounder to me, or a second round QB. In those scenarios, I'd be fine with taking him. But at the top five pick? No. What the **** is a Big Al?

[chazoe60]

LJ's accuracy has improved each season. He's a late first rounder to me, or a second round QB. In those scenarios, I'd be fine with taking him. But at the top five pick? No. What the **** is a Big Al?

Alfred Williams. Radio host ex-Bronco/Bengal with obvious brain damage who constantly says dumb shit.

[chazoe60]

Alfred Williams. Radio host ex-Bronco/Bengal with obvious brain damage who constantly says dumb shit.

Basically the player version of King. :laugh::laugh:

[Poet]

Alfred Williams. Radio host ex-Bronco/Bengal with obvious brain damage who constantly says dumb shit.

My god...he...and I....

[UnderArmour]

He also shit the bed in the playoffs against the Steelers, struggled to read defenses, and was drafted as high as he was because of his pedigree at Alabama. Cincinnati signed Dalton to a contract that they could have dumped at any time - it was similar to the Kaepernick deal that happened just beforehand. The Bengals never seriously considered letting McCarron run the team, even this season when Dalton was absolutely putrid.

The Browns HC, Hue Jackson, backed out of a deal for him at the last second. There have been few rumors about teams wanting to trade for McCarron. In other words, the team that knows him best likes him enough to keep him around as a backup, but nothing more. Is he the worst guy around? No. But he's a guy, nothing more or less, at least to me.

If we're looking for a young guy to be the man, it's not him. McCarron might have had some appeal when the defense was at its strongest. JMO.

Actually, the rumors were that the front office screwed Hue Jackson out of the trade for his guy: http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/browns_failed_to_approve_trade.html

Hue definitely wanted AJ, and did not "back out at the last second" as you suggest. Rather, Sashi Brown had no clue what he was doing, and was subsequently fired from his job.

I posted my thoughts earlier in the thread on AJ, and I would love to have him on our roster. AJ definitely has the leadership qualities the Broncos have been lacking in a quarterback, and I would absolutely be excited to have him on our roster. Hell, I'd probably even go out and buy his jersey if we took him, and passed on a quarterback in the draft.

[Poet]

Actually, the rumors were that the front office screwed Hue Jackson out of the trade for his guy: http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/browns_failed_to_approve_trade.html

Hue definitely wanted AJ, and did not "back out at the last second" as you suggest. Rather, Sashi Brown had no clue what he was doing, and was subsequently fired from his job.

I posted my thoughts earlier in the thread on AJ, and I would love to have him on our roster. AJ definitely has the leadership qualities the Broncos have been lacking in a quarterback, and I would absolutely be excited to have him on our roster. Hell, I'd probably even go out and buy his jersey if we took him, and passed on a quarterback in the draft.

Sashi Brown, the front office guy who was actually doing a good job backing out on and Hue Jackson, he who can win one game per two years, and has bounced around the league, wanting him isn't the best rebuttal. I did get my facts wrong, though. I thank you for that correction.

With guys like Cousins and Foles, you can at least point to moments in time where you are given a reason to think they are/could be 'the guy'. I don't see any with McCarron.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I don’t know about you guys, but I sure hope the Broncos don’t waste all that money I give them (which equates to a couple bucks a year on merchandise) getting a good QB so we can be competitive because I’d much rather have a cheaper, shittier journeyman career backup and save a couple mil a year to spend on guys like Donald Stephenson and Menelik Watson...

I still don’t understand why fans give 2 shits about money. The same dudes whined about money when we signed Manning. Who gives a ****??? It’s not your money! Teams afraid to spend to build their roster will always be shitty.

[Broncoknight30]

I don’t know about you guys, but I sure hope the Broncos don’t waste all that money I give them (which equates to a couple bucks a year on merchandise) getting a good QB so we can be competitive because I’d much rather have a cheaper, shittier journeyman career backup and save a couple mil a year to spend on guys like Donald Stephenson and Menelik Watson...

I still don’t understand why fans give 2 shits about money. The same dudes whined about money when we signed Manning. Who gives a ****??? It’s not your money! Teams afraid to spend to build their roster will always be shitty.

Hard to believe how cousins, the greatest QB since Peyton Manning, has never won a playoff game.

[Poet]

Peyton Manning needed awhile before he won a playoff game...

[chazoe60]

Hard to believe how cousins, the greatest QB since Peyton Manning, has never won a playoff game.

Give me a break.

[Broncoknight30]

Give me a break.

Oh, he did win one? Lets hear why, he hasnt and while we are at it, lets discuss why peyton manning finally won a playoff game.

According to some, Cousins is just that good. No defense, or other pieces necessary. No, just sign Cousins. He has certainly proven he can carry team without those other things that takes money to fill.

Cousins...is soooooo gooooood. That is what I am reading. Where am I wrong? Oh, his salary wont matter. That is what I read too. Where am I wrong?

[chazoe60]

Oh, he did win one? Lets hear why, and while.we are at it, lets discuss why peyton manning finally won a playoff game.

According to some, Cousins is just that good. No defense, or other pieces necessary. No, just sign Cousins. He has certainly proven he can carry team without those other things that takes money to fill.

Cousins...is soooooo gooooood. That is what I am reading. Where am I wrong? Oh, his salary wont matter. That is what I read too. Where am I wrong?

Everywhere. You're wrong everywhere you go. You can not escape your wrongness.

[Poet]

I'm so sorry that you're so miserable, sir. I hope your life improves.

[VonDoom]

I don’t know about you guys, but I sure hope the Broncos don’t waste all that money I give them (which equates to a couple bucks a year on merchandise) getting a good QB so we can be competitive because I’d much rather have a cheaper, shittier journeyman career backup and save a couple mil a year to spend on guys like Donald Stephenson and Menelik Watson...

I still don’t understand why fans give 2 shits about money. The same dudes whined about money when we signed Manning. Who gives a ****??? It’s not your money! Teams afraid to spend to build their roster will always be shitty.

It matters if it curtails your ability to do anything else to improve your team. Going into cap hell for Cousins doesn’t appeal to me. Call me crazy, but I like the idea of actually drafting and developing a QB long term, like most successful teams do

[underrated29]

Big Al is such a moron. That idiot is stumping hard for AJ or Lamar Jackson. He thinks we should draft Jackson at 5. Good Lord, that kid is as inaccurate as PL. We could draft Jackson in the 3rd and move to WR, that's the only way I want him on the team.



I like Lamar Jackson. I would be totally fine with him in the 2nd. I do not think he makes it there though. I bet Miami takes him with their first.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

It matters if it curtails your ability to do anything else to improve your team. Going into cap hell for Cousins doesn’t appeal to me. Call me crazy, but I like the idea of actually drafting and developing a QB long term, like most successful teams do

Please tell me when the last time was that the Broncos were in “cap hell”. People throw that term around every time a team pays premium money for premium players... people said that shit after we signed Manning. Then we went out and signed Ware, Ward, Talib, and Stewart and they said it again. Then we signed Von to a huge deal and it was said once again. Maybe I’m just thick as a brick, but I have yet to see this phenomenon. Can you name or refer to any time in the Broncos history that we had to blow up the entire roster because we were in “cap hell” and start over?

I can only think of one time since the start of the salary cap era where that happened. The 2000-2001 Ravens Super Bowl team. They truly did have to blow up their roster the next year. Other than that, the shit doesn’t actually happen. I’m not saying that the salary cap doesn’t exist, but every GM these days knows how to manipulate it to sign the players they really want. Cousins won’t bankrupt this team. He’ll only be the highest paid guy until the next QB (likely A Rod) signs his extension.

[Buff]

Please tell me when the last time was that the Broncos were in “cap hell”. People throw that term around every time a team pays premium money for premium players... people said that shit after we signed Manning. Then we went out and signed Ware, Ward, Talib, and Stewart and they said it again. Then we signed Von to a huge deal and it was said once again. Maybe I’m just thick as a brick, but I have yet to see this phenomenon. Can you name or refer to any time in the Broncos history that we had to blow up the entire roster because we were in “cap hell” and start over.

I can only think of one time since the start of the salary cap era where that happened. The 2000-2001 Ravens Super Bowl team. They truly did have to blow up their roster the next year. Other than that, the shit doesn’t actually happen. I’m not saying that the salary cap doesn’t exist, but every GM these days knows how to manipulate it to sign the players they really want. Cousins won’t bankrupt this team. He’ll only be the highest paid guy until the next QB (likely A Rod) signs his extension.

The salary cap is a really valid concern IMO. Cousins is going to get between $27-$30 mil annually. Von is making $22.5 next year. Combined they would represent roughly 27% of our cap next year. Find me another team who is devoting 27% of their cap to 2 players.

I'm not saying we definitely shouldn't - just that we better be damn sure that Cousins is the guy, otherwise we're going to be in a really tough spot... I think there is merit to paying arguably the two most important positions this kind of money - but they both basically have to be Pro Bowlers because you're going to have to cut back in other areas.

[Poet]

I think Horsepower is talking about the notion that it costs too much to give to a QB in general, or that no one player is worth it, etc. But, I can't speak for the man. Because he's a Horse. And I don't speak horse.

[VonDoom]

Please tell me when the last time was that the Broncos were in “cap hell”. People throw that term around every time a team pays premium money for premium players... people said that shit after we signed Manning. Then we went out and signed Ware, Ward, Talib, and Stewart and they said it again. Then we signed Von to a huge deal and it was said once again. Maybe I’m just thick as a brick, but I have yet to see this phenomenon. Can you name or refer to any time in the Broncos history that we had to blow up the entire roster because we were in “cap hell” and start over?

I can only think of one time since the start of the salary cap era where that happened. The 2000-2001 Ravens Super Bowl team. They truly did have to blow up their roster the next year. Other than that, the shit doesn’t actually happen. I’m not saying that the salary cap doesn’t exist, but every GM these days knows how to manipulate it to sign the players they really want. Cousins won’t bankrupt this team. He’ll only be the highest paid guy until the next QB (likely A Rod) signs his extension.

I can't speak for everyone here, but I certainly didn't say this when Manning was signed. I was behind that move 1000%. We also had cap space then - I can't find the exact figures, but 2012-2014, we were big spenders in FA. That bill is coming due now - we haven't signed many big ticket FA the last couple of years and yet we've been fairly tight against the cap every year. Buff makes a good point - we already have a guy making QB money on this team and it's not a QB. It's hard for me to see us devoting that much space to two guys and still being competitive elsewhere. Besides, Manning is a top 5 or 10 all time QB. Is that Cousins?

Take a look at this interesting piece on potentially signing Cousins - this was written before the Alex Smith trade and the Garoppolo deal, but the gist is the same. This doesn't have us shedding any real talent this year, but it makes the contract a very tight fit. And as I've said before, if cutting Talib and Sanders is the price for getting Cousins, I don't see how that truly benefits us.


Before I craft a contract for Cousins that would fit the Broncos, let’s take a look at their own cap and contract situation. I estimate that, after Matt Paradis and Shaq Barrett are given second round RFA tenders, and 2018 rookies are accounted for, the Broncos will have about $14.5 million in 2018 cap space. This gets lower, of course, if they do things like give Bennie Fowler an RFA tender, extend Cody Latimer, Todd Davis or Corey Nelson, or make other free agent acquisitions.

In the Broncos’ case, 2019 is also an important year to take into account. My estimate there, after both 2018 and 2019 rookies are accounted for, and either a fifth year tender on Shane Ray or an extension for Barrett is secured, will be $24.5 million left in 2019 cap space. Furthermore, the grand majority of that could be eaten up by extending Matt Paradis and Bradley Roby. Roughly estimate about $8.5 million APY for Paradis and $13.5 million APY for Roby, and you can see there’s not much left over.

https://in-thinair.com/2018/01/12/how-can-the-broncos-get-kirk-cousins/

But my point really was that we should stop looking for the quick FA fix. Manning turned this team into a contender overnight, and I don't see Cousins (or really anyone else) having that effect. Invest a rare early pick in a QB and develop him - hopefully he becomes a franchise guy and you don't have to worry about QB for ten years or more. Then you can try to take advantage of one of the only market inefficiencies left in the NFL - a good QB on a cheap deal, allowing you to fill in holes elsewhere and compete for the duration of that rookie contract.

[Buff]

I think Horsepower is talking about the notion that it costs too much to give to a QB in general, or that no one player is worth it, etc. But, I can't speak for the man. Because he's a Horse. And I don't speak horse.

Elway has done a great job managing the cap, I think that's his point... These two mega deals would put us in uncharted territory - that's my point. It could still work out, but it's risky.

[Poet]

Elway has done a great job managing the cap, I think that's his point... These two mega deals would put us in uncharted territory - that's my point. It could still work out, but it's risky.

You're not a horse either!

The points are solid.

[MOtorboat]

Elway has done a great job managing the cap, I think that's his point... These two mega deals would put us in uncharted territory - that's my point. It could still work out, but it's risky.

They'd make it work.

:coffee:

[Buff]

They'd make it work.

:coffee:

Right - that's HP56's point -- and that may be true - but conventional salary cap wisdom tells us it's a bad move.

My counterpoint would be that a pass rushing DE/OLB and QB are arguably the two most important positions, so if you're going to make a big investment in your salary cap, those are the two places to spend... A lot of it boils down to how confident we are that Cousins can be a pro bowl QB for years to come. If he ends up being only slightly above average - a Top 12-15 QB, then it will have been a bad move.

[MOtorboat]

Right - that's HP56's point -- and that may be true - but conventional salary cap wisdom tells us it's a bad move.

My counterpoint would be that a pass rushing DE/OLB and QB are arguably the two most important positions, so if you're going to make a big investment in your salary cap, those are the two places to spend... A lot of it boils down to how confident we are that Cousins can be a pro bowl QB for years to come. If he ends up being only slightly above average - a Top 12-15 QB, then it will have been a bad move.

I just stopped trying to worry about the cap. I’ve been the one talking myself blue in the face over salary cap tool and then it always seems to work.

[Buff]

I just stopped trying to worry about the cap. I’ve been the one talking myself blue in the face over salary cap tool and then it always seems to work.

Yeah but I think you're doing it at precisely the wrong moment. I think that's what I'm trying to convey. You're both saying that it has historically always worked out (and it has under Elway, but we had a ton of dead money under Shanny)... This is different though. These deals are in another echelon. It could still work - but you've got to think some salary cap conventional wisdom still applies and everything we've learned across all the sports is that wrapping up your cap in a couple of players is often a recipe for failure.