OK, Let's Address O-Line.

[Ground Control]

https://www.denverpost.com/2017/12/01/offensive-lines-woes-broncos-nfl/

This seems to be a good article addressing the fact that crying o-line failure is admitting ignorance to the facts and adherence to media punch lines. We suffered greatly early but still had great run blocking. Pass defense was shameful early but we got better towards the end. Can any o-line make up for QBs that have no idea what a pocket is and make horrible decisions? That may be a chicken before the egg question, since a QB is assumed to make better decisions when given time but...there are plenty of QBs in the league that just make decisions faster than ours have. And the protection got noticeably better in the later part of the season but the QB production didn't.

Basically, we need a star at right tackle and another great player at guard. Maybe just the star at right tackle will do. As per the article, everyone is dealing with this problem, so to assume that is the end all be all for us is a failure that we as fans can get away with. Not the Broncos front office and coaches though...

[Joel]

Can any o-line make up for QBs that have no idea what a pocket is and make horrible decisions? That may be a chicken before the egg question, since a QB is assumed to make better decisions when given time but...there are plenty of QBs in the league that just make decisions faster than ours have. And the protection got noticeably better in the later part of the season but the QB production didn't.
That's no assumption, but copiously demonstrated fact: Rushed decisions are nearly always bad decisions. How fast do you think a starting quality NFL QB should be able to read coverage and blitzes or go through progressions to find an open man, even if it's just a 5th string checkdown? I'd think >2 seconds, but we rarely allowed any of our QBs even that much time after the snap. And they're ALL still young as people and pro players, still learning; put them in that situation very often for very long and all they'll "learn" is to be trigger happy spaz desperately rushing out EVERY pass to avoid ending up under a dogpile of pass rushers—when your protection consistently sucks you can't know when on of its rare exceptions will occur; all you know is that those exceptions WILL be rare, and the "mental clock" you develop to beat blindside sacks will run much faster than it should.

Oh: And if you DO try to scan the field, you'll just be condemned for "holding the ball too long" due to your "lack of situational awareness." Just as if you try to wait for WRs who run a 4.4 in shorts to get 20-30 yds downfield and open for a pass—but if you DON'T your a "Captain Checkdown who can't throw deep."

All that's doubly true against competitors who outperformed MILLIONS of others to earn a starting HS job that provided a chance to earn a scholarship that provided a chance to earn a starting college job that provided a chance to earn a draft selection that provided a chance to earn a starting pro job. Since every single NFL player made it at least as far as the antepenultimate step, it's easy to forget that even UDFA camp fodder is (much) better than virtually EVERY athlete any of us will ever meet anywhere but an NFL event.

I concede work and my familys immigration allowed practically NO time to "even watch the games" this year, so if the protection improved a lot toward seasons end, great. However, it seems unlikely with an All Pro LG playing out of position, a starting RT who became an injury casualty about the time the supposed improvement began and a "starting LG" who only got the job because he failed at a starting RG spot that requires even less of the protection skills he notoriously lacks. If "great run blocker but garbage protector" accurately describes our line, Garcia is its posterboy (and Paradis its antithesis.)

It's also widely (and, in this case, accurately) presumed that any analysis that automatically drops all or even most blame/credit on the QB is a grossly oversimplified superficial analysis: The QB is the most important single player because he gets the snap on every scrimmage (sometimes even including punts,) but if all a given fan can/will see are the virtues/vices of the most VISIBLE single player, that's a greater indictment of the analyst than of the QB.

LOTS of great QBs have posted awful seasons because they lacked a supporting cast, especially when the lack was run blocking good enough to avoid 3rd and long and pass protection to succeed routinely facing 3rd and long. Archie Manning and Oliver Luck made careers out of it, continuing even after the teams drafting them essentially traded them for each other. Andrew Luck doesn't suck: His team does. Eli isn't over the hill, but his protection is overwhelmed, so he is too.

Dig a bit deeper, man: It's worth the effort, and failure to expend that worthwhile effort makes all analysis suspect at best, comical at worst.

[Ziggy]

I think Leary is going back to left guard next season. Vance Joseph said that one of the things they did poorly this year was not keeping players in their best positions. I'm going to assume that he was talking about Leary and Walker. Max Garcia is a joke at left guard, and I think it hurt the development of Bolles. That was one of the many horrible coaching moves that went on last season.

Paradis is solid. I really liked what I saw out of McGovern when he was finally given a chance. The fact that it took so many injuries to give him a shot at guard speaks to the massive level of coaching fail as well. Koujando probably looked like our best RT all season, but that isn't saying a whole lot.

Right tackle is definitely the biggest need right now. Or, draft a left tackle and move Bolles over to the right side. There are some good ones that may fall to the second round. None are worthy of pick #5 in this draft. The best Olineman in this draft is G Quenton Nelson. He is worthy of the #5 pick in this draft.

Elway will fix this line. He tried last season and had some misses. For some reason, they thought Garcia was a legitimate NFL starting caliber guard and Menelik Watson would fill the right tackle spot. Neither panned out. Leary was a hit. Bolles will be fine with decent coaching and some help to his right. Either way, this line will look a bit different next season.

[spikerman]

I don’t understand how it’s supposed to work with two different offensive line coaches. This can’t be good for cohesion. I’m a bit worried that the Broncos have no idea of what they’re doing.

[Rick]

Only way it can work with 2 position coaches is if there is 1 voice. main OL guy and the other guy helps convey the message of main guy.

[spikerman]

Only way it can work with 2 position coaches is if there is 1 voice. main OL guy and the other guy helps convey the message of main guy.

So far that’s not what it sounds like is happening.

[MOtorboat]

https://www.denverpost.com/2017/12/01/offensive-lines-woes-broncos-nfl/

This seems to be a good article addressing the fact that crying o-line failure is admitting ignorance to the facts and adherence to media punch lines. We suffered greatly early but still had great run blocking. Pass defense was shameful early but we got better towards the end. Can any o-line make up for QBs that have no idea what a pocket is and make horrible decisions? That may be a chicken before the egg question, since a QB is assumed to make better decisions when given time but...there are plenty of QBs in the league that just make decisions faster than ours have. And the protection got noticeably better in the later part of the season but the QB production didn't.

Basically, we need a star at right tackle and another great player at guard. Maybe just the star at right tackle will do. As per the article, everyone is dealing with this problem, so to assume that is the end all be all for us is a failure that we as fans can get away with. Not the Broncos front office and coaches though...

The team needs a right tackle, not sure it has to be a "star," but it needs one. The largest problem, by far, was at quarterback, so that I fully agree with.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

The team needs a right tackle, not sure it has to be a "star," but it needs one. The largest problem, by far, was at quarterback, so that I fully agree with.

My only concern with drafting a guard that high is we would have three guards capable of starting and one T. I would almost prefer we trade back so that we have a pick somewhere between 9-13 while adding another first in the later part of the round. We badly need a tackle.

I wouldn’t be disappointed in the player from ND, but we would have to keep a someone on the right side at all times to chip

[Cugel]

My only concern with drafting a guard that high is we would have three guards capable of starting and one T. I would almost prefer we trade back so that we have a pick somewhere between 9-13 while adding another first in the later part of the round. We badly need a tackle.

I wouldn’t be disappointed in the player from ND, but we would have to keep a someone on the right side at all times to chip

They're not going to draft a G at #5 even if they don't draft a Qb. They will either take a QB they like at #5 or else trade up for one of the top 2 or 3 Qbs. Alternatively, if they get a FA they like, they might not take a QB at all in the first round, and take the best player available at a position of need. That would probably be OL, if there was a T there they liked.

If not, they might try and trade back with some team which wanted a top 10 QB, and then take a G or T. Or anything really.

Best if they find a RT and QB in FA and then can just draft whoever falls to them at #5.

[MOtorboat]

They're not going to draft a G at #5 even if they don't draft a Qb. They will either take a QB they like at #5 or else trade up for one of the top 2 or 3 Qbs. Alternatively, if they get a FA they like, they might not take a QB at all in the first round, and take the best player available at a position of need. That would probably be OL, if there was a T there they liked.

If not, they might try and trade back with some team which wanted a top 10 QB, and then take a G or T. Or anything really.

Best if they find a RT and QB in FA and then can just draft whoever falls to them at #5.

This basically assures it of happening.

[Shazam!]

I actually think a lot of the glaring failures of the OLine has to do with more than one issue than purely talent. Playcalling, technique, scheme has so much to do with its functionality.

Bolles, Leary, Paradis, McGovern and with a T they're not far off i don't think.

[turftoad]

Someone else said it but I agree.
Draft a top LT in the first, move Bolles to RT and grab a FA QB.
Fixes the line for years, especially at the tackle position.

[Ground Control]

My only concern with drafting a guard that high is we would have three guards capable of starting and one T. I would almost prefer we trade back so that we have a pick somewhere between 9-13 while adding another first in the later part of the round. We badly need a tackle.

I wouldn’t be disappointed in the player from ND, but we would have to keep a someone on the right side at all times to chip

This. If we grab a ringer vet, trading back would be the shit.

[Ground Control]

I actually think a lot of the glaring failures of the OLine has to do with more than one issue than purely talent. Playcalling, technique, scheme has so much to do with its functionality.

Bolles, Leary, Paradis, McGovern and with a T they're not far off i don't think.

Agreed.

[Ground Control]

That's no assumption, but copiously demonstrated fact: Rushed decisions are nearly always bad decisions. How fast do you think a starting quality NFL QB should be able to read coverage and blitzes or go through progressions to find an open man, even if it's just a 5th string checkdown? I'd think >2 seconds, but we rarely allowed any of our QBs even that much time after the snap. And they're ALL still young as people and pro players, still learning; put them in that situation very often for very long and all they'll "learn" is to be trigger happy spaz desperately rushing out EVERY pass to avoid ending up under a dogpile of pass rushers—when your protection consistently sucks you can't know when on of its rare exceptions will occur; all you know is that those exceptions WILL be rare, and the "mental clock" you develop to beat blindside sacks will run much faster than it should.

Oh: And if you DO try to scan the field, you'll just be condemned for "holding the ball too long" due to your "lack of situational awareness." Just as if you try to wait for WRs who run a 4.4 in shorts to get 20-30 yds downfield and open for a pass—but if you DON'T your a "Captain Checkdown who can't throw deep."

All that's doubly true against competitors who outperformed MILLIONS of others to earn a starting HS job that provided a chance to earn a scholarship that provided a chance to earn a starting college job that provided a chance to earn a draft selection that provided a chance to earn a starting pro job. Since every single NFL player made it at least as far as the antepenultimate step, it's easy to forget that even UDFA camp fodder is (much) better than virtually EVERY athlete any of us will ever meet anywhere but an NFL event.

I concede work and my familys immigration allowed practically NO time to "even watch the games" this year, so if the protection improved a lot toward seasons end, great. However, it seems unlikely with an All Pro LG playing out of position, a starting RT who became an injury casualty about the time the supposed improvement began and a "starting LG" who only got the job because he failed at a starting RG spot that requires even less of the protection skills he notoriously lacks. If "great run blocker but garbage protector" accurately describes our line, Garcia is its posterboy (and Paradis its antithesis.)

It's also widely (and, in this case, accurately) presumed that any analysis that automatically drops all or even most blame/credit on the QB is a grossly oversimplified superficial analysis: The QB is the most important single player because he gets the snap on every scrimmage (sometimes even including punts,) but if all a given fan can/will see are the virtues/vices of the most VISIBLE single player, that's a greater indictment of the analyst than of the QB.

LOTS of great QBs have posted awful seasons because they lacked a supporting cast, especially when the lack was run blocking good enough to avoid 3rd and long and pass protection to succeed routinely facing 3rd and long. Archie Manning and Oliver Luck made careers out of it, continuing even after the teams drafting them essentially traded them for each other. Andrew Luck doesn't suck: His team does. Eli isn't over the hill, but his protection is overwhelmed, so he is too.

Dig a bit deeper, man: It's worth the effort, and failure to expend that worthwhile effort makes all analysis suspect at best, comical at worst.

"Grrr. Grrr".

I thank you very much for crawling out from underneath your bridge, troll-guy. It must have been hard to give up feeding on the innocent for the time it took to reply, but it is appreciated. I'm also happy you chose to move beyond diapers and went with collared shirts. You have really owned your role playing an adult, sir!

It's 2.5 seconds for pro QBs. And it is absolutely the job of the QB to understand the pocket, the pressure, and the defensive scheme. A decent QB can help his line by being smart. Not genius, just the sort of smart that should be requisite in the NFL. I have loved all 3 of our current QBs at different times but am done with giving them the benefit of the doubt. I have no doubt all 3 can have success in the future but only one will have a job here next year. And they all took turns at making horrible decisions that reduced their time to make plays for the Broncos. I'm not on any mission to blame the QBs for every wrong. Our line has sucked and still really sucks at RT and one guard but better QBs create a positive symbiotic relationship with their lines.

Respect for your situation and you are a true American, IMO. Your family has been given nothing in the way of cultural byes or assumptions and earned every bit they have gained. Plus, immigrants are the ones that live the American dream. The rest of us grow up assuming it's a right for simply existing. However, I did say we needed a new guard. Garcia is whom I meant that needs to go. He's good at run blocking and has grown this year but to hell with hoping he will bring us any titles next year! The RT position is a nasty joke and although I think the rest of the line made up for this near the end, it's not funny anymore. Thus, Tackle is our biggest need.

Dude, I did say we needed rock solid additions. Within your ranting, you did mention the same things I did as the biggest areas of concern. Again, I never said the QB is wholly responsible. Please read before you take on the role of human again. I just said that a better QB would have been able to make those reads within the assumed 2.5 seconds, or give their o-line more time...to give him more time...by moving appropriately...to extend that time, as needed. Our travails are way more complicated than the o-line, or the QB, but this post is about the O-line, and that we only need 2 key players to be more than competitive, IMO.

Again, my main point is we're not that bad off and the article I posted notes failures across the league at o-line. From listening to 760am, I've learned that offensive linemen in college have no clue how to be a pro-caliber lineman, due to the schemes at the amateur level. I have also learned that there is no coach training at any level in the NFL, currently. Thus, continued sloppy play by O-lines, for the most part. Plus, because of the increased role of the QB, teams have gone full-on in getting edge rushers that can scare the hell out of any QB or tackle; Especially in the AFC West. This is not solely a Denver problem.

Your observations about other QBs success is one I've made before I started digging deeper. Agreed on Luck but Manning, and maybe quite a few higher potential QBs, are not as good as they have been or could be...and their supporting cast isn't wholly to blame. Life and the NFL is complicated as hell. Deep, no?

Otherwise, the adults that have responded below match my thinking about specific moves. You're cool. You just need to realize that everything posted on the internet isn't an excuse to take out your frustrations on those that have posted their opinions. All good, you'll get it. Take care.

[Ground Control]

I don’t understand how it’s supposed to work with two different offensive line coaches. This can’t be good for cohesion. I’m a bit worried that the Broncos have no idea of what they’re doing.

I'm totally ignorant here. I thought Davidson was the new Oline coach...?

[Shazam!]

Ground. Jesus. Don't be Joel.

[Ground Control]

Ground. Jesus. Don't be Joel.

Admittedly reactionary regarding trolls. I've come to find many trolls on this site and battle by default. Thanks for the check.

[Cugel]

Admittedly reactionary regarding trolls. I've come to find many trolls on this site and battle by default. Thanks for the check.

11640
Hmmmn.