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Ground Control
12-29-2017, 11:40 PM
...Absolutely NOT worth a cap-crushing salary. He's top 10 at best. The money he seems to be predicted to be offered is validated only by QBs that can carry a team on their backs and to the SB. Cousins is definitely not that guy. He's got good numbers and is a leader. He'd be a great Bronco, and I'd be happy as hell to have him but we have to be realistic.

He has not carried the Redskins to notoriety as a starter on his own. That may seem unfair but I'm only talking about his monetary value, not his professional value. Again, he's top 10. That would be awesome for us Broncos fans but is he a SB winning QB, or is he simply a playoff QB? I'm leaning towards a playoff-only QB with question marks. So...

If we do pursue him, Elway should pull out all of his a-hole negotiating skills and make him realize his place in the greater NFL and what he needs, if he hopes to be a SB QB. Of course, it's totally realistic for him to want to see stability and support from the Broncos, regarding what we have to offer (drafts, coaching, free agents, o-line, receivers, etc.)...but he isn't worth 30-35 mil. and if he wants a great team around him, he should be open to reality, and suck up to 20-25 mil, to show he is a team player. Otherwise, he's not our guy.

Brees, however. That guy is gold and I would offer my second born (not happening but still...) to have him as a Bronco!

Rick
12-30-2017, 12:08 AM
Brees is 38. I would love to have him for 2-3 years but with him I am drafting his future replacement.

I would take Cousins over Brees at this point. Brees is better but Cousins isn't THAT far behind.

Cousins could possibly be here another 10-12 years.

Northman
12-30-2017, 12:14 AM
Cousins lit up our defense with subpar players. Yea, i would love to have him as he is better than ANY QB we have on the roster.

Ground Control
12-30-2017, 12:30 AM
Cousins lit up our defense with subpar players. Yea, i would love to have him as he is better than ANY QB we have on the roster.

I think that game was a bad example, as our entire team was out of sync but yeah, I get it. He has poor playoff experience though (not his fault). I'm totally down, I just don't think he's proven himself to be the absolute ringer his projected value seems to show. My main point is that I WANT him. I just want him at a salary that leaves room for high-level building around him. And at a salary that is equal to his value. He's had a few great seasons, and is getting better each year but...no real playoff experience.

Again, top 10. I'll take top ten all day. I just want Elway to prove his worth as the deal maker we know him to be and sell Denver as a paradise for the Cousins family. And to get Cousins at his real value, not his hyped value.

Ground Control
12-30-2017, 12:48 AM
Brees is 38. I would love to have him for 2-3 years but with him I am drafting his future replacement.

I would take Cousins over Brees at this point. Brees is better but Cousins isn't THAT far behind.

Cousins could possibly be here another 10-12 years.

Very true but Brees is a proven winner and soooo much better than Cousins for his respective team currently. He's a SB champion and has kicked ass in a HUGE way this year, where Cousins has provided only good numbers/ leadership. I also agree that Cousins would be the better long term choice but I guess it's a matter of balance.

Brees: Immediate SB winner that we can draft or develop a franchise QB under for a few years. A few years that might just bring us a ring..or two.

Cousins: Long term winner that can develop into a SB champion, after a few positive playoff experiences. We just need a decent backup QB (Kelly, even) and can spend the best part of our economy on drafting and buying a kick ass support structure around him.

I'm ok with either option. I would prefer Cousins long term, but only if he owns the fact that he's not Brees....yet (and accepts a paltry 20-25 mil.). I would prefer Brees short term, as he can change the Broncos immediately, and we can develop a franchise QB under him. Assuming Elway has any idea how to do so....which he hasn't shown so far.

Basically, I agree! I'm just saying that Cousins isn't worth top dollar in the NFL when he is only a proven top 10 QB. He deserves top 10 dollar, and that's it. After a short contract that he proves he's worth top dollar, then we can pay him that. But for now...I just don't think he is equal to the extra 10-15 mil he would hurt us regarding the hit we would take in money available to make the entire team 'championship'.

Rick
12-30-2017, 01:13 AM
Problem with Brees is if we make the same mistake with the successor like we did with Manning, then we are in a world of hurt again in a few years.

Ground Control
12-30-2017, 01:36 AM
Problem with Brees is if we make the same mistake with the successor like we did with Manning, then we are in a world of hurt again in a few years.

Yep, good point. A point that accentuates a lack of faith in Elway's choices at QB. I hope that Elway has learned from his idiocy and will make different choices in the future but we can't assume that...so maybe more weight on Cousins than Brees because of the point you make.

Sad but true. Fandom has to be realism though, since we have no say outside of our purchase power.

Still don't want to leave the bank account empty for Cousins, though. But when thinking long term, a balance can be found with his salary and leaning towards drafting a future team around him. Of course, that brings back into question Elway's development prowess, and his ability to open up to let his coaches and staff help make a better future for the team. Also, it means the inevitable wait for fans to see the Broncos reach a championship level again.

Thanks for the point you made. I'm down for long term commitment and stability. Although we can't discount extended-aged success for Brees, ala Brady, Cousins makes much more sense in a reality where Elway leaves little room for faith in what he would do after Brees retires at the QB position. There is a long list of very successful QBs he has passed on while leaving us with what we have currently. He may change but unless he can land another ringer after Brees, a longer term proven QB is the better choice.

Shazam!
12-30-2017, 04:08 AM
Denver has gone the FA route for a fix before. It is time to Draft the next Franchise QB to lead this team for 15 years. Too many holes on Offense to commit so much money, Von and Cousins together are too expensive.

Ground Control
12-30-2017, 04:48 AM
Denver has gone the FA route for a fix before. It is time to Draft the next Franchise QB to lead this team for 15 years. Too many holes on Offense to commit so much money, Von and Cousins together are too expensive.

I agree on a deep level. I would love to be able to sink into a long relationship with a young badass that can lead us into the future for years to come. I just don't believe that Elway can give us that. He's failed often, and we get to watch teams enjoy the benefits of Elway's missed opportunities. I would hope that he can learn from his mistakes but I get the feeling that we will get stuck with Josh Allen, or another guy that fits Elway's vision of what a new 'him' could be...but the cheap version.

Jaded, yeah. There is no example that is contradictory to this jaded vision though. Elway has f'ed up every QB choice for the Broncos but Manning. I'm down with drafting our future but if he does, he damn well better be ok with paying the dues needed to develop him. Otherwise, we're better off letting Elway be Elway and let him deal us a known factor.

aberdien
12-30-2017, 11:12 AM
I would rather draft and develop somebody than get Brees.

Valar Morghulis
12-30-2017, 11:39 AM
I would rather draft and develop somebody than get Brees.

Or both.

I am on team cousins though

wayninja
12-30-2017, 02:23 PM
This is all moot since Eli is coming to Denver.

It won't save us, but that's what is going to happen.

Cugel
12-30-2017, 05:07 PM
As for Cousins being "worth it" if you mean "for the Broncos" then the answer is "NO!"

But, for some teams that have just a ton of cap-room because they suck? Their GM and coach are going to get fired if they can't find a QB. Who cares if his salary cripples your cap?

Cleveland for instance hasn't had a QB since Bernie Kosar. What would he be worth to them? Perhaps he wouldn't want to go there, but what if they offered him $32m a year on a 4 year deal, $128m contract, with 3 years for $96m guaranteed?

He'd have a hard time turning that down. As for Cleveland, who else are they going to spend it on? Most of their players are rookies and younger players on their rookie contracts. They are cheap. No FAs want to go there, so they aren't spending a lot on FAs.

They have the cap room to spend. If I were them I'd do it in a heart-beat. Certainly it was better than giving $16m to Brock Osweiler for a 2nd round pick and then just cutting him. He doesn't suck as bad as the QBs they still have on their roster.

So if Cleveland were smart they could well be all in on the Cousins sweepstakes. Cousin's agent might tell them "he doesn't want to go there" but they could tell the guy that they would offer at least $1m a year more than anybody else and the guarantee would be 3 years on a 4 year deal, with a fifth year option.

Would that convince him? I have no idea. Perhaps he'd go somewhere else. But, Cleveland would have been driving the market up. Other teams would have to react to that if they wanted Cousins. He will have about 10 teams interested in talking to him about signing.

That's why he'll get over $30m. Either Cleveland or the Jets or some other team that is getting rid of their QB - Bears? -

The Browns have $117.5m in cap room. When you think about that you realize that a $50m cash bonus is no big deal to them.

Cugel
12-30-2017, 05:26 PM
This is all moot since Eli is coming to Denver.

It won't save us, but that's what is going to happen.

The new GM in his first presser said that he wants and expects Eli to be in NY next season. They aren't letting him go and he's under contract so he isn't going to be available.

He's also got a $20m a year contract and he ain't taking any pay-cuts. Could they trade him?

I suppose so, although it would be deeply unpopular in NY. They would take endless grief from Giants fans and the NY media. Imagine if Eli came to Denver, played for 2 seasons and the Broncos went to another SB?

They would utterly lose their shit in NY. The abuse for John Mara and the new GM would be intense. Why would they do that?

Better to draft a QB of the future at #2 and then keep Eli for one more year while the kid gets ready. The fans won't be too upset at that because by then they will be eager to see what the kid can do, just as fans here wanted to see what Paxton could do, until we saw what he could do of course.

BroncoWave
12-30-2017, 05:26 PM
This is all moot since Eli is coming to Denver.

It won't save us, but that's what is going to happen.

If we sign Eli, kill me.

Valar Morghulis
12-30-2017, 05:30 PM
Eli has a no trade clause

Cugel
12-30-2017, 05:35 PM
Still don't want to leave the bank account empty for Cousins, though. But when thinking long term, a balance can be found with his salary and leaning towards drafting a future team around him. Of course, that brings back into question Elway's development prowess, and his ability to open up to let his coaches and staff help make a better future for the team. Also, it means the inevitable wait for fans to see the Broncos reach a championship level again.

Thanks for the point you made. I'm down for long term commitment and stability. Although we can't discount extended-aged success for Brees, ala Brady, Cousins makes much more sense in a reality where Elway leaves little room for faith in what he would do after Brees retires at the QB position. There is a long list of very successful QBs he has passed on while leaving us with what we have currently. He may change but unless he can land another ringer after Brees, a longer term proven QB is the better choice.

What Elway did wrong wasn't what you supposed. He passed on Russell Wilson and took Osweiler in the 2nd round. That was a mistake. But, every single GM in the NFL made exactly the same mistake - TWICE and some of them three times.

Russell Wilson should have been drafted in the top 5 picks of the NFL draft if anybody had a clue what he would become. So, I don't think you can fault Elway for not seeing what nobody in the NFL saw. Because if they had even a passing glimmer of an idea, they would have drafted him in the first or second round. THat's where QBs teams see as serious candidates to become franchise starters are drafted.

Rarely third round, and later than that almost never.

Cugel
12-30-2017, 05:39 PM
Alright. Moving on from Osweiler to Lynch. Clearly entering the season they were counting on Paxton Lynch to develop, and he just hasn't. He's just a bust. And Dak Prescott went to Dallas and he's been great. So, Elway once again took the wrong guy, right?

Not really. Once again NOBODY in the NFL, including the Dallas Cowboys, the team that drafted him, liked Dak Prescott more than Paxton Lynch. Not one NFL team.

Jerry Jones had to be talked out of trading up ahead of the Broncos who had traded up to get Paxton Lynch. Even though he wanted the Cowboys to draft Paxton Lynch he sat still and drafted Dak Prescott in the 4th round instead and the rest is history.

Well, if every single GM in the NFL totally WHIFFED on Dak Prescott 3 times and most of them 4 times, how can Elway be singled out for blame?

They all screwed up. There are about 10 teams that still need a QB that would love to have him right now.

Cugel
12-30-2017, 05:42 PM
As for drafting Paxton in the first round, yes he was probably over-drafted by 1 round. He was more of a late 2nd round prospect than a true first round prospect, and yes, few late 2nd rounders even pan out.

But, Dallas would have drafted Paxton in the first round if Denver passed on him. So, he was certain to be a first rounder regardless of Elway.

And if Jerry had somehow been sedated and placed under restraints so that he couldn't object, and Dallas passed on Paxton, then some other team would have drafted him in the 2nd round, because most of the rest of the teams had a 2nd round grade on him and some would have seen him as a value pick in the late 2nd round. Even more so in the top of the 3rd round if somehow he fell that far. Someone was going to draft the kid.

Valar Morghulis
12-30-2017, 05:43 PM
Dak sucked this year - his flame out will be RG3 esque

But yeah, i do get your point

Cugel
12-30-2017, 05:52 PM
Dak sucked this year - his flame out will be RG3 esque

But yeah, i do get your point

The point is simply that "who should Elway have drafted instead of Paxton? Well, Dak Prescott obviously." He was the only QB still on the boards when the Broncos drafted who would have been any better than Paxton.

They could simply have passed on a 1st round QB, taken something else, let Dallas have Lynch and then draft Prescott in the 3rd round.

But not one NFL GM would have thought that was a good idea.

Sometimes they just don't get it right. And the reason is that college football is getting more and more unlike the NFL so - according to interview with Mike Shanahan, there's almost no way for NFL scouts to evaluate college QB prospects except going by "arm talent". Can the guy make all the required throws with velocity and accuracy. Is his throwing mechanic good? Does he look DBs off his receivers and throw with good anticipation.

Unfortunately, this is like the difference in baseball between being a pitcher and being just a thrower. One guy knows how to get outs and one doesn't. In the NFL the mental aspect of the game is much more important than having a great arm.

Jeff George had a much better arm than Peyton Manning. Unfortunately, Jeff Georg's brain was attached to that arm, not Peyton Manning's brain. Hence Jeff George crapped his way out of the NFL and never understood why his phone never rang with offers to come back and play after his day was done.

Case closed.

Valar Morghulis
12-30-2017, 06:29 PM
The point is simply that "who should Elway have drafted instead of Paxton? Well, Dak Prescott obviously." He was the only QB still on the boards when the Broncos drafted who would have been any better than Paxton.

They could simply have passed on a 1st round QB, taken something else, let Dallas have Lynch and then draft Prescott in the 3rd round.

But not one NFL GM would have thought that was a good idea.

Sometimes they just don't get it right. And the reason is that college football is getting more and more unlike the NFL so - according to interview with Mike Shanahan, there's almost no way for NFL scouts to evaluate college QB prospects except going by "arm talent". Can the guy make all the required throws with velocity and accuracy. Is his throwing mechanic good? Does he look DBs off his receivers and throw with good anticipation.

Unfortunately, this is like the difference in baseball between being a pitcher and being just a thrower. One guy knows how to get outs and one doesn't. In the NFL the mental aspect of the game is much more important than having a great arm.

Jeff George had a much better arm than Peyton Manning. Unfortunately, Jeff Georg's brain was attached to that arm, not Peyton Manning's brain. Hence Jeff George crapped his way out of the NFL and never understood why his phone never rang with offers to come back and play after his day was done.

Case closed.

Like I said, I get your point

Hawgdriver
12-30-2017, 07:03 PM
Like I said, I get your point

Not me. I remain unmoved.

Rick
12-30-2017, 07:40 PM
I have no issues what so ever in the team spending around 30 mil on Cousins, no matter how many words people type.

I think we can afford it with very little changes to the roster.

Cousins will quite possibly lead the league in yards if we can find a TE to match with DT and Sanders.

Shazam!
12-30-2017, 07:40 PM
Cug you really need a drink. Or a valium or a Xanax.

topscribe
12-30-2017, 08:35 PM
Cousins lit up our defense with subpar players. Yea, i would love to have him as he is better than ANY QB we have on the roster.
True, at present. But I'm one of those die-hards who are not counting out Paxton Lynch for
the future until I see more of him. There's no way anyone can have a bead on him after 4½
whole games.

Northman
12-30-2017, 08:43 PM
True, at present. But I'm one of those die-hards who are not counting out Paxton Lynch for
the future until I see more of him. There's no way anyone can have a bead on him after 4½
whole games.

Chances are Denver isnt going to discard him, but i wouldnt expect him to start next year, he still has a long way to go and lot more to learn (if he ever does). I just dont see Denver rolling the dice next year and letting him start the entire season which is why i think they are giving him this last game to see if he improved any. Much like the Raiders game the cards are stacked in his favor, the Chiefs will be sitting a lot of starters so its basically Lynch and our starters vs a preseason squad. If he cant do anything against them at home i think the writing will be on the wall in that regard.

Ziggy
12-30-2017, 08:50 PM
The problem with Lynch outside of his miniscule football IQ is his contract. It would be a 4.46 million dollar cap hit to cut him, and he has no trade value. The Broncos are stuck with him for at least another year. He gets to be a multi million dollar clipboard holder.

topscribe
12-30-2017, 08:52 PM
Chances are Denver isnt going to discard him, but i wouldnt expect him to start next year, he still has a long way to go and lot more to learn (if he ever does). I just dont see Denver rolling the dice next year and letting him start the entire season which is why i think they are giving him this last game to see if he improved any. Much like the Raiders game the cards are stacked in his favor, the Chiefs will be sitting a lot of starters so its basically Lynch and our starters vs a preseason squad. If he cant do anything against them at home i think the writing will be on the wall in that regard.
It's quite a dilemma, as I view it. If they rely on him, they're rolling the dice. If they go after, say, a Cousins or spend their #1 on a QB, they're also rolling the dice. In Cousins' case, they're betting Lynch won't make it because that will end his quest to be a starter, and that's a #1 down the drain plus the $27K or whatever for Cousins. In the case of a draft choice, they're bringing in another untested #1 to compete with an already invested, largely untested #1. It's a choice I'm glad I don't have to make . . .



The problem with Lynch outside of his miniscule football IQ is his contract. It would be a 4.46 million dollar cap hit to cut him, and he has no trade value. The Broncos are stuck with him for at least another year. He gets to be a multi million dollar clipboard holder.

You know, I've heard more than once about Lynch's football I.Q., and I would like to know specifically what has caused that impression. I wonder what they would have thought about the I.Q. of a rookie who put his hands under a guard's butt to receive the snap. :D

Ziggy
12-30-2017, 09:09 PM
You know, I've heard more than once about Lynch's football I.Q., and I would like to know specifically what has caused that impression. I wonder what they would have thought about the I.Q. of a rookie who put his hands under a guard's butt to receive the snap. :D

Specifically, Tyler Polumbus was talking about it during the preseason on Orange and Blue radio. Then they interviewed a former player that was a coaching intern last season, and he was talking about how Paxton didn't understand even the most basic football concepts coming in. His play on the field seems to back it up. Polumbus has a lot of friends in the locker room, and plays cards with the Olineman on occasion. (Or so he says)

topscribe
12-30-2017, 09:12 PM
Specifically, Tyler Polumbus was talking about it during the preseason on Orange and Blue radio. Then they interviewed a former player that was a coaching intern last season, and he was talking about how Paxton didn't understand even the most basic football concepts coming in. His play on the field seems to back it up. Polumbus has a lot of friends in the locker room, and plays cards with the Olineman on occasion. (Or so he says)
Well, if what the former player said was accurate, then Elway & Co. really whiffed in not checking that aspect out.

BroncoWave
12-30-2017, 09:15 PM
Well, if what the former player said was accurate, then Elway & Co. really whiffed in not checking that aspect out.

I think too often, teams fall in love with a guy's physical gifts and think they can just coach the rest up. Sometimes a guy is dumb and just can't be coached. I'm not 100% saying that's Lynch's situation, but it's looking more and more likely that it is.

Tbolt
12-31-2017, 02:17 AM
I think the answer HAS to be Cousins. They need a guy that can play NOW. Shady/Rapistburger are just about done. The AFC could be WIDE OPEN the next few years. Top ten could get it done.

Ground Control
01-01-2018, 01:07 AM
I think too often, teams fall in love with a guy's physical gifts and think they can just coach the rest up. Sometimes a guy is dumb and just can't be coached. I'm not 100% saying that's Lynch's situation, but it's looking more and more likely that it is.

Agreed. Especially since he seems unwilling to put in the extra time. From what I've seen of him, he also expects to get the nod. Maybe because the whole of this season revolved around trying to give him the nod. That doesn't bode well, when searching for a fighter. No NFL QB of note has been anything less than a fighter. We'll probably be stuck with him next year as a backup. But he seems to be dumb. Not that dumb is doomed to failure. Just that dumb needs a few more years to catch up and be an ok backup.

Ground Control
01-01-2018, 01:13 AM
The problem with Lynch outside of his miniscule football IQ is his contract. It would be a 4.46 million dollar cap hit to cut him, and he has no trade value. The Broncos are stuck with him for at least another year. He gets to be a multi million dollar clipboard holder.

Yep. Painful but true. Let's just hope he doesn't hold the clipboard for a draft pick with promise in Denver. Imagine being a badass QB drafted by Denver, with the world ahead of him but a world of lessons to learn...and have Paxton Lynch as your mentor. Best he holds a clipboard for a vet and maybe catches up to the rest of the NFL, at least at the backup level.

Somewhere else after next year.

Ground Control
01-01-2018, 06:03 AM
Specifically, Tyler Polumbus was talking about it during the preseason on Orange and Blue radio. Then they interviewed a former player that was a coaching intern last season, and he was talking about how Paxton didn't understand even the most basic football concepts coming in. His play on the field seems to back it up. Polumbus has a lot of friends in the locker room, and plays cards with the Olineman on occasion. (Or so he says)

Yeah, I heard all season long on 760, from the pre-season get go, that Lynch not only didn't get it...but that he refused to spend any effort to hope to get it. They don't always get the inside scoop on 760 but they always get a real view on the team. Sometimes, it's all about seeing the body of evidence by what orbits around it, rather than seeing it directly. Since, you know...public image and all.

atwater27
01-01-2018, 12:06 PM
I think too often, teams fall in love with a guy's physical gifts and think they can just coach the rest up. Sometimes a guy is dumb and just can't be coached. I'm not 100% saying that's Lynch's situation, but it's looking more and more likely that it is.although I cringe at you insulting him like that, I do think he doesn’t have a mental grasp of the nfl caliber offense. Doesn’t mean he’s dumb per se, just in the wrong business.

Cugel
01-02-2018, 11:10 AM
I would rather draft and develop somebody than get Brees.

You will probably get your wish since Cousins will not come here and Brees is going nowhere. Teams with much more salary cap room can outbid the Broncos.

Remember that the Redskins will match any sane offer, and even some insane ones. It will take just an absurd offer before they will say "I give up! You take our star QB! That is just too much money!"

That's why he will get over $30m a year, because if it's something remotely sensible, like around $26m to $28m the Redskins will just say "thank you very much!" And match the offer. Then he has no choice but to remain.

That solves the Redskins problems for them. They don't have to admit their stupid mistake and negotiate a deal when they can't apparently manage to negotiate with him. ANd they don't have to let him walk for free either. And best of all they don't have to franchise him at $34m, they use the transitional franchise tag and just match whatever offers Cousins gets.

So, in order to pry him away from DC some team will need not just to over-pay him, but to WILDLY Overpay by such a ginormous amount that the Redskins just throw up their hands and give up and let him go.

Obviously in such a money throwing contest, the team (Cleveland, the Jets, etc.) that has the most money to throw at a QB has the advantage.

Cugel
01-02-2018, 11:14 AM
although I cringe at you insulting him like that, I do think he doesn’t have a mental grasp of the nfl caliber offense. Doesn’t mean he’s dumb per se, just in the wrong business.

From a practical point of view, does it make a difference? I'm a really nice guy in real life, but I would never have made a decent NFL QB, even if I had the physical talent. It's just too demanding and I'm too lazy. Tom Brady is right. Playing QB in the NFL "isn't a job. It's a life style choice."

Well, after 2 years Paxton has not bought into that lifestyle or he isn't able to learn effectively. He's a bust pure and simple. Elway can keep him around until the cows come home but he's not going to become a star NFL QB. He clearly doesn't have the right stuff.

NightTerror218
01-02-2018, 03:05 PM
I want cousins and willing to pay top 10 money, maybe top 5. Elway has done great with vet contracts.

But part of reason for huge contracts are for players to get as much in their prime as they can and then realize they want a ring. Cousin's has made bank last 2 years and could be willing to not break a team's bank. Do a contract like Carr with a base salary around $24 a year could work. Something like 5 year for $120 with $72 mill guaranteed (Base of $18mill for 4 years guaranteed)

wayninja
01-02-2018, 03:08 PM
Yeah, don't count on it. If we want cousins, we are going to pay for him. I think we should, personally, but I have no illusion that we'll be able to get a "steal" on him somehow.

NightTerror218
01-02-2018, 03:28 PM
Mental splurging on start of our off-season. Not going into FA we should go after but internal things.

With $31 mill in cap Robert getting cousins would leave $7 mill and then the cuts and restructures start.

What I would want to see

Cut
Watson (save $4.5 mill)
Kerr (save $1.5 mill)
Talib if no restructure (save $11 mill)

Restructures or trade
Roby onto long term contract to reduce $8.5mill cap hit
Talib restructure and extension or cut
DT and extension (contract expires after 2019)
Wolfe and extension (contract expires after 2019)
Chris Harris and extension (Co tract expires after 2019)
Stewart trade (Simmons and park playing well)
Sanders trade as last resort

Reason I mentioned these vets for restructure is that you can spread out cap hits into more years and they are more willing to work with team. They know we need a QB and contracts end soon.

Players that need to be retained
Paradis RFA
Barrett RFA
Shelby Harris RFA
Taylor or latimer RFA
Keith ERFA

NightTerror218
01-02-2018, 03:29 PM
Yeah, don't count on it. If we want cousins, we are going to pay for him. I think we should, personally, but I have no illusion that we'll be able to get a "steal" on him somehow.

No steals but high guarantees and long contract. What I posted is #5 in total money and #2 in guarentees

CoachChaz
01-03-2018, 12:31 AM
Mental splurging on start of our off-season. Not going into FA we should go after but internal things.

With $31 mill in cap Robert getting cousins would leave $7 mill and then the cuts and restructures start.

What I would want to see

Cut
Watson (save $4.5 mill)
Kerr (save $1.5 mill)
Talib if no restructure (save $11 mill)

Restructures or trade
Roby onto long term contract to reduce $8.5mill cap hit
Talib restructure and extension or cut
DT and extension (contract expires after 2019)
Wolfe and extension (contract expires after 2019)
Chris Harris and extension (Co tract expires after 2019)
Stewart trade (Simmons and park playing well)
Sanders trade as last resort

Reason I mentioned these vets for restructure is that you can spread out cap hits into more years and they are more willing to work with team. They know we need a QB and contracts end soon.

Players that need to be retained
Paradis RFA
Barrett RFA
Shelby Harris RFA
Taylor or latimer RFA
Keith ERFA

I think Wolfe needs to be a cut or retire. His neck only gets worse and worse and eventually he's not going to walk away from the game.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-03-2018, 12:41 AM
I think Wolfe needs to be a cut or retire. His neck only gets worse and worse and eventually he's not going to walk away from the game.

As much as I love him being a Bronco, I agree with you.

CoachChaz
01-03-2018, 12:43 AM
As much as I love him being a Bronco, I agree with you.

I certainly don't want to see him go, but it's really in his best interest. And probably the team as well.

Valar Morghulis
01-03-2018, 04:45 AM
Love Wolfe - but the fact he played a career at all is a miricle given his early health scare, then the neck issues.

Broncoknight30
01-03-2018, 10:01 AM
All we need is a productive QB that has a relatively small salary that does not totally bankrupt the franchise and makes it possible to sign some key free agents. You know, like the Pats.

Cause we can see what these gigantic QB salaries have done to certain franchises. Like Luck. Everyone blames them for NOT putting a team around him. Want to know why? Not that hard to figure out.

Flacco, after winning it in 2012, gets a big pay day. They immediately needed to get rid of 7 players, many of them key players.

Have not really done shi since.

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 10:12 AM
For those of you who want Cousins. Is he worth two first round picks (5th year and next years pick)? Because I can almost guarantee you that Washington will transition tag him and if they do, they'll have a stranglehold on his rights. It will cost at minimum two first round picks for him, if not throwing in a player or two as well.

How did that kind of trade work out for the Bears with Cutler?

So, yea, we can make him fit under the cap with his absurd payday he'll be getting, but is it worth selling the farm in the draft to get him? Are you THAT confident in him that you'd throw away two high draft picks or more for him?

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 10:18 AM
Cousins lit up our defense with subpar players. Yea, i would love to have him as he is better than ANY QB we have on the roster.

I don't know about "lit up" benefited from a short field maybe. The majority of the game I was fairly unimpressed. Don't forget that the very next week he threw 3 INT's and zero TD's against the Giants...

I'm just not buying the Cousins hype personally. I don't feel like we'll be any better at QB next year with Cousins than we were with Brock.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-03-2018, 10:23 AM
For those of you who want Cousins. Is he worth two first round picks (5th year and next years pick)? Because I can almost guarantee you that Washington will transition tag him and if they do, they'll have a stranglehold on his rights. It will cost at minimum two first round picks for him, if not throwing in a player or two as well.

How did that kind of trade work out for the Bears with Cutler?

So, yea, we can make him fit under the cap with his absurd payday he'll be getting, but is it worth selling the farm in the draft to get him? Are you THAT confident in him that you'd throw away two high draft picks or more for him?

Huge gamble for them though. If they do it they’ll have to pay him $34M if nobody wants to give up 2 firsts for him. They’ll be stuck either paying him $34M or straight cutting him.

Northman
01-03-2018, 10:25 AM
For those of you who want Cousins. Is he worth two first round picks (5th year and next years pick)? Because I can almost guarantee you that Washington will transition tag him and if they do, they'll have a stranglehold on his rights. It will cost at minimum two first round picks for him, if not throwing in a player or two as well.

How did that kind of trade work out for the Bears with Cutler?

So, yea, we can make him fit under the cap with his absurd payday he'll be getting, but is it worth selling the farm in the draft to get him? Are you THAT confident in him that you'd throw away two high draft picks or more for him?

Well slow your roll Frey, so far the only thing Denver has said is that they are willing to make him a generous offer. They have not mentioned anything about draft picks. But, if Wash does what you say than i would agree that giving up 2 1st round draft choices is not worth it. But if all Denver has to do is offer him money than yes, you pay the man the money because he is better than anything we have or will get in the draft at this point in time. Furthermore, Cousins doesnt have the issues that Jay had so the comparison between players is kind of stupid. But so far there has been NOTHING said about giving up draft picks for him, just chill already.

Northman
01-03-2018, 10:26 AM
I don't know about "lit up" benefited from a short field maybe. The majority of the game I was fairly unimpressed. Don't forget that the very next week he threw 3 INT's and zero TD's against the Giants...

I'm just not buying the Cousins hype personally. I don't feel like we'll be any better at QB next year with Cousins than we were with Brock.

Yes, i know you dont like the guy. We get it.

Davii
01-03-2018, 10:33 AM
For those of you who want Cousins. Is he worth two first round picks (5th year and next years pick)? Because I can almost guarantee you that Washington will transition tag him and if they do, they'll have a stranglehold on his rights. It will cost at minimum two first round picks for him, if not throwing in a player or two as well.

How did that kind of trade work out for the Bears with Cutler?

So, yea, we can make him fit under the cap with his absurd payday he'll be getting, but is it worth selling the farm in the draft to get him? Are you THAT confident in him that you'd throw away two high draft picks or more for him?

Rapoport reported that the Redskins have said the will not use the transition tag on Cousins. The reasoning behind it is any team they wind up competing with will front load a deal and it would cost more than $34 million in year one anyhow, so why not just use the franchise tag if they're going to use a tag? In a nutshell, they can't win a bidding war for him, so they'll either work out a long-term deal, use the franchise tag, or let him walk.

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 10:40 AM
Well slow your roll Frey, so far the only thing Denver has said is that they are willing to make him a generous offer. They have not mentioned anything about draft picks. But, if Wash does what you say than i would agree that giving up 2 1st round draft choices is not worth it. But if all Denver has to do is offer him money than yes, you pay the man the money because he is better than anything we have or will get in the draft at this point in time. Furthermore, Cousins doesnt have the issues that Jay had so the comparison between players is kind of stupid. But so far there has been NOTHING said about giving up draft picks for him, just chill already.

I'm honestly asking. My roll is at good speed I'm asking a question for discussion sake. I just want to know how much you guys are in love with him? I'm pretty chill right now north? Thanks for your concern, I know I have my blood pressure to worry about :D

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 10:41 AM
Rapoport reported that the Redskins have said the will not use the transition tag on Cousins. The reasoning behind it is any team they wind up competing with will front load a deal and it would cost more than $34 million in year one anyhow, so why not just use the franchise tag if they're going to use a tag? In a nutshell, they can't win a bidding war for him, so they'll either work out a long-term deal, use the franchise tag, or let him walk.

Ok, well fair enough good info. I'm still not a fan of paying him, but if there are no draft picks involved it's less of a big deal.

Northman
01-03-2018, 10:41 AM
I'm honestly asking. My roll is at good speed I'm asking a question for discussion sake. I just want to know how much you guys are in love with him? I'm pretty chill right now north? Are you?

Im very chill. But you are asking questions that are not even relevant at this time. Lol

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 10:43 AM
Yes, i know you dont like the guy. We get it.

Yikes, so much touchiness. There are a lot of things I like about him, I like his fire, passion and leadership ability. I'm just not convinced he's worth being paid top QB money.

If he comes here, I'm not going to rally against him. He'll have as much support from me as TS did because he'll be our starting QB and overpaid or not, I'll support that.

I just feel there are better options.

Lets back the venom off and have a conversation, I come in peace I swear.

Davii
01-03-2018, 10:45 AM
Ok, well fair enough good info. I'm still not a fan of paying him, but if there are no draft picks involved it's less of a big deal.

He will not make more than 30 million per year. Period. He WILL be the highest paid QB in the league and will get some very nice guarantees, but he will not average more than 30 mill per year. The market does not support such a leap in average salary regardless of what a third franchise tag would cost.

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 10:50 AM
He will not make more than 30 million per year. Period. He WILL be the highest paid QB in the league and will get some very nice guarantees, but he will not average more than 30 mill per year. The market does not support such a leap in average salary regardless of what a third franchise tag would cost.

That's the part that bugs me. The highest paid QB and the highest paid edge rusher on the same team. That's like darn near 1/3rd of our cap space tied up in two players.

If we were getting cousins around 19-20 million, I'd be all over that. I'd maybe even bite at $25m, but it would be a hard sell, but top paid QB in the league?

It's not even entirely about what he does or does not bring to to the team as a QB, when you've got that much money tied up, you cannot properly spend to keep the players you have or add new players. If it was a guy like Peyton Manning who has been to Superbowls and actually done something, that's one thing, but I dunno, what has Cousins done?

I see the benefits of him, he's going to be around for a long time, he's got an awesome personality and strong leadership skills, he could answer our QB questions long term, I love his "You like that? You like that!" fire, but I just am real, real uneasy about dumping that much money into a guy that really has never accomplished anything. (and yes, I know, the team around him is weak, I get that)

CoachChaz
01-03-2018, 10:55 AM
Cousins will likely get Stafford money. $27 mil per year. But if you offset it with bonuses and proper structuring, it would be about $25 against the cap per year. I think that's a fair price for a QB of his ability. As far as it crippling the team...I think we'd be ok. A cut/retire of Wolfe, Watson, CJ will get us an additional 12-15 mil on top of the 30 we'll have.

Rick
01-03-2018, 11:10 AM
Trying to find the article I read this morning but it mentioned that since Cousins took over he has been top 5 in passing yards, passing rating and completion percentage.

Cugel
01-03-2018, 11:12 AM
Well, if what the former player said was accurate, then Elway & Co. really whiffed in not checking that aspect out.

According to an interview with Kyle Shanahan because of the vastly different nature of college football today with all the spread offenses, compared to the NFL it's impossible for NFL GMs to really evaluate college Qbs accurately. He said that the only thing NFL scouts and GMs can evaluate is "arm talent."

Does the QB throw receivers open? Can he throw with velocity and accuracy into a tight window? But, QBs are seldom under center in college. You all saw the Rose Bowl. Baker Mayfield hardly made an NFL style throw all night. He threw to open receivers.

Mayfield is hardly unique. So, scouts evaluated Paxton based on his athleticism and his arm talent. Both are elite. But, his ability to read NFL defenses? Not elite. His ability to learn a system? Not elite, etc.

It's getting worse and worse because college football is getting more and more unlike the NFL every year. It's hard to evaluate OL too and the ones coming out of college are rarely adequately prepared for life in the NFL as a LT say. We saw that with Garrett Bolles struggling this season. He has elite athleticism. But, as an NFL player he's far from elite.

In his case he can learn. But, for a QB who faces an immediate judgment, "can this guy play in the NFL?" it can be really hard to adapt. A lot more is asked of QBs and fewer and fewer measure up each year.

That makes teams more and more desperate. Even marginal QBs are now taken in the first or second round. Perhaps Paxton deserved to be a late 2nd round pick, but the Broncos and Cowboys both wanted him and got into a bidding war to draft him. Neither wanted the other to get him, so ultimately he was over-drafted.

Cugel
01-03-2018, 11:19 AM
The unfortunate thing is that despite having a top 5 pick, the Broncos might well get shut out of getting an elite QB in the draft unless they manage to trade up into the top 2 picks.

I was listening to former QB and current college Fox analyst Joel Klatt and he was pointing out that Josh Allen has a lot of the same skill set as Brock Osweiler or Paxton Lynch, and could be over-drafted by the Broncos at #5.

But, what are they to do? The idiot Browns will take either Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen at #1 because they're the Browns and they draft a QB every year and then fail to develop him until he ultimately fails. The Giants will probably take whoever is left and stash them behind Eli Manning to learn for a couple of years. So much for the elite QB prospects.

That leaves Baker Mayfield, whom NFL scouts don't really consider a top 10 prospect, or Josh Allen, who might be another Paxton Lynch or Osweiler.

Normally, in any NFL draft there are a couple of QBs who ultimately are good. But seldom more than 2 and sometimes it's not the ones drafted in the first round (e.g. Dak Prescott).

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 11:21 AM
Cousins will likely get Stafford money. $27 mil per year. But if you offset it with bonuses and proper structuring, it would be about $25 against the cap per year. I think that's a fair price for a QB of his ability. As far as it crippling the team...I think we'd be ok. A cut/retire of Wolfe, Watson, CJ will get us an additional 12-15 mil on top of the 30 we'll have.

It may not hurt us this year, but once a lot of our talent needs resigned. I suppose it's fine if you are wanting to try and make a push for the superbowl in the next year or two, but I'm not sure how manageable it is in the long run.

It would all depend on how the contract is structured and I will give Elway this, for all of his issues drafting players, the man can structure a contract in a way that absolutely benefits the team.

We'll see what happens I guess. If we can pay him what he wants, while keeping the cap hit reasonable I won't make a loud fuss. My personal preference would be Mayfield in the draft. Since Darnold, Rosen and Barkley should go 1, 2, 3. This would be a very real possibility if the team wanted to go that direction.

If nothing else, this will be an exciting and entertaining offseason.

Cugel
01-03-2018, 11:28 AM
If the Broncos don't want to pay $30m a year for Kirk Cousins, or he signs elsewhere, then their options include:

Draft Allen with a top 10 pick and hope they can develop him.
Move back in the first round and draft Mayfield and endure the Tebow and Johnny Manziel comparisons and keep your fingers crossed.

Move back and take a flyer on Mason Rudolph or Lamar Jackson. I don't have an opinion there.

OR Go all in on a FA QB like Alex Smith, Teddy Bridgewater or Case Keenum. Probably none of them are coming here, unless the Broncos can out bid other teams with more cap room though. And that is assuming that the Chefs release rather than trade Alex Smith, because obviously they wouldn't trade him to the Broncos.

If you are the Chefs: Would you trade Alex Smith to the Broncos? Now suddenly you help them get a decent QB and win the division? No.

Cugel
01-03-2018, 11:36 AM
Quote Originally Posted by CoachChaz View Post
Cousins will likely get Stafford money. $27 mil per year. But if you offset it with bonuses and proper structuring, it would be about $25 against the cap per year. I think that's a fair price for a QB of his ability. As far as it crippling the team...I think we'd be ok. A cut/retire of Wolfe, Watson, CJ will get us an additional 12-15 mil on top of the 30 we'll have.


This is just fantasy nonsense. What conceivable facts is this based on? There is ZERO chance he would sign for $25m or $26m. :coffee:

Reality 101: The Redskins do NOT want to just let Cousins walk, but they have screwed the pooch on this so he won't voluntarily re-sign with them. He deleted all Redskins references from his Twitter account. That's not a good sign.

Still, they can franchise him for one more year at $34.6m. Few think they will do that, but it would give them an extra year to find their QB of the future in the draft or FA. It avoids the painful humiliation of having him just walk.

But, they can Transition tag him in which case they get to match any offers he gets.

Teams know this, so the ONLY way they can force the Redskins to let him go is if they give him just a LUDICROUS salary that the Redskins just can't afford to match. That number is expected by NFL analysts to be around $30m.

If it were $26m or even $28m a year, the Redskins will just match. Or there's a good chance they will match, in which case the team went to all the trouble of negotiating and signing a deal with Cousins, only to have the Redskins swoop in and take him away.

The Broncos did this with CJ Anderson when Miami signed him to a $4.5m contract.

That's why Cousins will get ridiculous money. Because desperate teams with a TON of cap room will deliberately try and sign Cousins to a "poison pill" contract - one that would poison the Redskins salary cap structure if they were to match.

I.e. the signing team will analyze the Redskins salary cap structure, and try to come up with the contract that will be the most difficult for the Redskins to match. They will take advantage of their larger pool of cap room to give him a bigger contract than they think the Redskins can afford.

And Cousins also will pit bidding teams against each other in a game of "the Browns just upped their offer! It's now $29m a year with $87m guaranteed. Can you top that?"

This leads to situations familiar with corporate mergers and acquisitions where corporations try and screw each other in contract negotiations. I won't bore you with the details but it won't be pretty.

Cugel
01-03-2018, 11:47 AM
No steals but high guarantees and long contract. What I posted is #5 in total money and #2 in guarentees

You're going by what he might conceivably be worth. What he will get and what he's worth are two different things. The former is a LOT more. That's the problem.

Now way Kirk Cousins is worth more than Drew Brees. But, in a bidding war he's going to get it.

CoachChaz
01-03-2018, 11:47 AM
It may not hurt us this year, but once a lot of our talent needs resigned. I suppose it's fine if you are wanting to try and make a push for the superbowl in the next year or two, but I'm not sure how manageable it is in the long run.

It would all depend on how the contract is structured and I will give Elway this, for all of his issues drafting players, the man can structure a contract in a way that absolutely benefits the team.

We'll see what happens I guess. If we can pay him what he wants, while keeping the cap hit reasonable I won't make a loud fuss. My personal preference would be Mayfield in the draft. Since Darnold, Rosen and Barkley should go 1, 2, 3. This would be a very real possibility if the team wanted to go that direction.

If nothing else, this will be an exciting and entertaining offseason.

Well...how long does this defense last? Wolfe is already at a point where it's probably in his best interest to retire...already need an upgrade over Davis...people are questioning whether Marshall should be a part of anything longer...Talib is older and paid a ton. I have to imagine there is a short window that goes with a long one. It's not inconceivable to structure a contract that has a team option in year 3. That way if the team declines it, Cousins would be a FA again at just 32 years old...or the team could pick it up and guarantee years 3-5. Contracts arent as black and white as people think they are.

As far as the draft goes, Darnold still hasnt declared and many think he wont, so he is likely off the table. Cleveland could try to sign McCarron if he is awarded free agency, thus minimizing their need for a QB at pick 1 or 4, which could lead to them dealing one of those picks to QB hungry NYJ in a swap for #6 plus extras...Browns also have a big interest in Josh Allen. Way too many intangibles in play to be able to get a grasp on the possibilities.

2 things I feel confident about...1. Cousins will NEVER get 30 mil. 2. We wont have a clue about available rookie QB's until draft day.

CoachChaz
01-03-2018, 11:54 AM
You're going by what he might conceivably be worth. What he will get and what he's worth are two different things. The former is a LOT more. That's the problem.

Now way Kirk Cousins is worth more than Drew Brees. But, in a bidding war he's going to get it.

No he wont. Because the bidding war works out the same for everyone. At best, there would be 4 teams bidding for Cousins. WAS, CLE, DEN, NYJ. Basing that on immediate need and available money. But all 4 teams also have the options to sign a lesser vet AND draft a future QB. So any of those teams can say "25 or 27 per year is as high as we go. Past that, we move to plan B". Kind of what Denver did with Oz. Here is where we'll go...anything past that, se la vie.

So, if Cousins "demands" 30 mil and those 4 teams choose to draft Rosen, Mayfield, Rudolph, Jackson, Allen, etc. to groom under a lesser vet, then Cousins is left without a team and his price drops. I really have faith that all 4 teams are smart enough to go the smarter route, thus limiting the contract on Cousins. If there were lesser talent in the draft...maybe. But there are too many talented draft options available. I think all 4 teams have a number in their head that they'll go to and if it's the same number for all 4, then Cousins just has to decide which is his preference. But he's not getting 30 mil.

Cugel
01-03-2018, 11:58 AM
No he wont. Because the bidding war works out the same for everyone. At best, there would be 4 teams bidding for Cousins. WAS, CLE, DEN, NYJ. Basing that on immediate need and available money. But all 4 teams also have the options to sign a lesser vet AND draft a future QB. So any of those teams can say "25 or 27 per year is as high as we go. Past that, we move to plan B". Kind of what Denver did with Oz. Here is where we'll go...anything past that, se la vie.

So, if Cousins "demands" 30 mil and those 4 teams choose to draft Rosen, Mayfield, Rudolph, Jackson, Allen, etc. to groom under a lesser vet, then Cousins is left without a team and his price drops. I really have faith that all 4 teams are smart enough to go the smarter route, thus limiting the contract on Cousins. If there were lesser talent in the draft...maybe. But there are too many talented draft options available. I think all 4 teams have a number in their head that they'll go to and if it's the same number for all 4, then Cousins just has to decide which is his preference. But he's not getting 30 mil.

Every NFL analyst says he is. You say he isn't which is pretty humorous actually.

The teams that are likely to bid on Cousins are not necessarily the Giants and Browns, the two teams that have the #1 and #2 pick. Analysts think there are as many as 12 teams who would like to replace their QBs.

Virtually every one of those teams will have Cousins at the top of their wish list. Getting a young pro-bowl QB with no significant injury history just doesn't happen in the NFL.

Nor is every team that might want Cousins going to be satisfied drafting Baker Mayfield or some other first round QB, if they can even get him with their draft picks. What if they don't like whoever they can draft with their pick?

I explained in baby language so nobody could mis-understand why Cousins is getting around $30m. And you responded with a bunch of bull about why he won't.

Just watch FA unfold and learn.

CoachChaz
01-03-2018, 12:01 PM
Every NFL analyst says he is. You say he isn't which is pretty humorous actually.

The teams that are likely to bid on Cousins are not necessarily the Giants and Browns, the two teams that have the #1 and #2 pick. Analysts think there are as many as 12 teams who would like to replace their QBs.

Virtually every one of those teams will have Cousins at the top of their wish list. Getting a young pro-bowl QB with no significant injury history just doesn't happen in the NFL.

Nor is every team that might want Cousins going to be satisfied drafting Baker Mayfield or some other first round QB, if they can even get him with their draft picks. What if they don't like whoever they can draft with their pick?

I explained in baby language so nobody could mis-understand why Cousins is getting around $30m. And you responded with a bunch of bull about why he won't.

Just watch FA unfold and learn.

And when he doesnt, you have to take a 1 year hiatus from posting here. Let's have fun with this.

UnderArmour
01-03-2018, 12:05 PM
Every NFL analyst says he is. You say he isn't which is pretty humorous actually.

The teams that are likely to bid on Cousins are not necessarily the Giants and Browns, the two teams that have the #1 and #2 pick.

Nor is every team that might want Cousins going to be satisfied drafting Baker Mayfield, if they can even get him with their draft picks.

I explained in baby language so nobody could mis-understand why Cousins is getting around $30m. And you responded with a bunch of bull about why he won't.

Just watch FA unfold and learn.

Cousins turned the deal down from the Redskins last offseason not because of the money, but because of the lack of 3rd year guarantees. Cousins wants a franchise that is going to commit to him for 3 years. Cousins would take less per year if it meant breaking the current guarantee record.

Stafford's deal sets the market right now for Cousins at 5 years 135 million, 27 million APY, and 92 million total in guarantees. I expect Cousins to get $29 million annually with $100 million in guarantees due to the unique nature of this situation.

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 12:07 PM
No he wont. Because the bidding war works out the same for everyone. At best, there would be 4 teams bidding for Cousins. WAS, CLE, DEN, NYJ. Basing that on immediate need and available money. But all 4 teams also have the options to sign a lesser vet AND draft a future QB. So any of those teams can say "25 or 27 per year is as high as we go. Past that, we move to plan B". Kind of what Denver did with Oz. Here is where we'll go...anything past that, se la vie.

So, if Cousins "demands" 30 mil and those 4 teams choose to draft Rosen, Mayfield, Rudolph, Jackson, Allen, etc. to groom under a lesser vet, then Cousins is left without a team and his price drops. I really have faith that all 4 teams are smart enough to go the smarter route, thus limiting the contract on Cousins. If there were lesser talent in the draft...maybe. But there are too many talented draft options available. I think all 4 teams have a number in their head that they'll go to and if it's the same number for all 4, then Cousins just has to decide which is his preference. But he's not getting 30 mil.

The problem with that thought, is there is always a Houston who is willing to overpay out of desperation because they want a guy. I just hope we aren't that team, but i don't agree that it's a forgone conclusion that he won't eclipse $30M.

Cugel
01-03-2018, 12:10 PM
Well...how long does this defense last? Wolfe is already at a point where it's probably in his best interest to retire...already need an upgrade over Davis...people are questioning whether Marshall should be a part of anything longer...Talib is older and paid a ton. I have to imagine there is a short window that goes with a long one.

Well, you disagree with every NFL analyst I've seen about Cousins, but this is all right.

Apparently, according to The Drive, Talib and the Broncos have basically parted ways, with them pulling him from the game after 10 snaps due to his unprofessional play.

I'm not going to bother arguing that point. I imagine a lot of posters want to start a flame war over it. I don't insist this is true. But, when he gave his exit interview, he blew off reporters asking if he would be back next year "ask John Elway" he said dismissively and quit answering questions.

The body language is all of a guy who doesn't want to be here any more and expects to be gone next year so he doesn't give a rip.

We do know this: Talib IS getting $12m next year, Bradley Roby IS being groomed to take his place and his contract goes from $1m to $8.5m this year. That is too much to pay a #3 CB, and they will have to give him a starting role to re-sign him or else he will want to leave.

They have to save money somewhere. Talib is obviously not going to re-do his deal to make it more cap friendly if he can get the money elsewhere and is in a tiff with management. And spending $30+m for 3 CBs is too much.

I'd like to see Talib back. He was the only Broncos Pro-bowler other than Von Miller. It just doesn't look like he'll be back. Dmac is insisting that "Talib is gone."

So, are a lot of other sportswriters. I hope they are wrong, but it doesn't look that way.

CoachChaz
01-03-2018, 12:11 PM
The problem with that thought, is there is always a Houston who is willing to overpay out of desperation because they want a guy. I just hope we aren't that team, but i don't agree that it's a forgone conclusion that he won't eclipse $30M.

Then I'll say this. if some team outbids themselves and pays 30 mil...shame on them. My estimate would be 5/140...at best.

Plus Houston already has Deshaun Watson. Why spend on Cousins????

Cugel
01-03-2018, 12:13 PM
The problem with that thought, is there is always a Houston who is willing to overpay out of desperation because they want a guy. I just hope we aren't that team, but i don't agree that it's a forgone conclusion that he won't eclipse $30M.

Basically this. If you have ONE more season to win before they fire you, you consider desperate things in order to keep your job. What if signing Kirk Cousins wins me 7 games next year, and I keep my coaching or GM job instead of getting fired?

Well, I'll give Cousins that $30m deal and worry about the long term cap consequences later. Assuming I still have a job in future years.

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 12:14 PM
Then I'll say this. if some team outbids themselves and pays 30 mil...shame on them. My estimate would be 5/140...at best.

Thats the nature of the NFL though. There is always a QB setting the market who really doesn't deserve it. Brock is sadly a great example. No one in their right mind would say "ya, Brock is work $18M a year" but Houston screwed the league over by setting the mid range market with him. That in turn increases the high range market.

In 10 years we'll be arguing over a QB making $45M a year. It's the way the NFL works. There is always a stupid team who is willing to destroy the market for everyone else to get what they want which is why the cost for players will continue to rise annually.

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 12:16 PM
Then I'll say this. if some team outbids themselves and pays 30 mil...shame on them. My estimate would be 5/140...at best.

Plus Houston already has Deshaun Watson. Why spend on Cousins????

You are missing the point with this edit... I'm not saying Houston will spend on Cousins, I am using their example of overpaying Brock. There is always a metaphorical Houston. That doesn't mean that Houston is literally going to enter the bidding war.

Cugel
01-03-2018, 12:17 PM
Then I'll say this. if some team outbids themselves and pays 30 mil...shame on them. My estimate would be 5/140...at best.

Plus Houston already has Deshaun Watson. Why spend on Cousins????

They won't of course. But lots of teams will. And it only takes 1 team.

The dynamic you are not recognizing is that it's a 3 way negotiation in which bidding teams not only have to out-bid each other (normal), they have to outbid what the Redskins will match.

If they can't do that all they accomplish is what the Dolphins did in the CJ Anderson negotiations - get CJ a much richer contract, but get nothing in return that will help the Dolphins.

But, that becomes a game of bluff. How high do I have to ante in before the Redskins fold their hand?

I hope and confidently expect that Elway is too smart to play that game. He's not blowing up his entire salary cap structure to land Cousins.

If the salary really IS around $26m a year, I expect he'd be interested (perhaps not). But, at $30+m? I'd be shocked if Elway is all in on that.

Northman
01-03-2018, 12:18 PM
Thats the nature of the NFL though. There is always a QB setting the market who really doesn't deserve it. Brock is sadly a great example. No one in their right mind would say "ya, Brock is work $18M a year" but Houston screwed the league over by setting the mid range market with him. That in turn increases the high range market.

In 10 years we'll be arguing over a QB making $45M a year. It's the way the NFL works. There is always a stupid team who is willing to destroy the market for everyone else to get what they want which is why the cost for players will continue to rise annually.

No player deserves getting overpaid including one Von Miller. But the market is what it is and if you are trying to improve your team you have to with the market or else fall behind. Trust me, when Brady retires the Patriots will be grasping and struggling to find their next franchise QB, it wont just fall in their lap. It just doesnt happen like that on the regular.

Cugel
01-03-2018, 12:20 PM
You are missing the point with this edit... I'm not saying Houston will spend on Cousins, I am using their example of overpaying Brock. There is always a metaphorical Houston. That doesn't mean that Houston is literally going to enter the bidding war.

Your point is valid. The Texans owner publicly said after the Brock Osweiler negotiations:

"the price kept going higher and higher and I think they [the Broncos] realized at some point that we weren't going away. We identified Osweiler as our guy and we were willing to pay whatever it took to land him."

Bob McNair was willing to pay MORE than $18m a year for Osweiler. The ludicrous amount he got? $72m contract, with 3 years guaranteed at $37m? They were willing to go higher if the Broncos kept matching.

That is what teams will do with Kirk Cousins. That will be their plan A - sign Cousins. They will use their salary cap room as a weapon to outbid other teams if they can. The price he gets will NOT be "reasonable" based on his actual abilities and real value as measured against what other star Qbs are getting.

CoachChaz
01-03-2018, 12:23 PM
They won't of course. But lots of teams will. And it only takes 1 team.

The dynamic you are not recognizing is that it's a 3 way negotiation in which bidding teams not only have to out-bid each other (normal), they have to outbid what the Redskins will match.

If they can't do that all they accomplish is what the Dolphins did in the CJ Anderson negotiations - get CJ a much richer contract, but get nothing in return that will help the Dolphins.

But, that becomes a game of bluff. How high do I have to ante in before the Redskins fold their hand?

I hope and confidently expect that Elway is too smart to play that game. He's not blowing up his entire salary cap structure to land Cousins.

If the salary really IS around $26m a year, I expect he'd be interested (perhaps not). But, at $30+m? I'd be shocked if Elway is all in on that.


I doubt Elway would go that route either. The rest is on Cousins and his camp. IF money is the priority as it was with Oz, then he definitely takes 30 mil...assuming it's actually offered. But if he is competitive and more interested in winning, does he take a little less???

Northman
01-03-2018, 12:24 PM
Except the choice of where to sign is still up to Cousins. Much like the choice to sign was up to Manning when SF and Tenn were going after him. I seriously doubt with the disarray that Wash has that Cousins is looking to go to the Browns or some other team that has been struggling. I can guarantee that Cousins is looking for a franchise that is close to winning championships.

Cugel
01-03-2018, 12:24 PM
No player deserves getting overpaid including one Von Miller. But the market is what it is and if you are trying to improve your team you have to with the market or else fall behind. Trust me, when Brady retires the Patriots will be grasping and struggling to find their next franchise QB, it wont just fall in their lap. It just doesnt happen like that on the regular.

Believe me a lot of fans will be happy when Brady does retire and the Patriots stink for a while. It's incredibly boring and frustrating seeing them win every damn year. Especially since they are not above cheating their way to victory if that's what it takes.

Cugel
01-03-2018, 12:28 PM
Except the choice of where to sign is still up to Cousins. Much like the choice to sign was up to Manning when SF and Tenn were going after him. I seriously doubt with the disarray that Wash has that Cousins is looking to go to the Browns or some other team that has been struggling. I can guarantee that Cousins is looking for a franchise that is close to winning championships.

Perhaps, if the money is roughly equal. But, Denver does not have Peyton Manning any more and is not a very desirable landing spot at 5-11. They have little talent on offense, the defense is declining from year to year and will probably get worse this off-season with the loss of Talib. The OL is still pretty bad and they are trying to move DT.

We don't know if Elway will give up on trading DT after failing to move him during the regular season. But, he won't be happy paying DT $15m but can't simply cut him because of the cap hit.

Denver is not an elite franchise right now, but might still be a favorable place compared with Cleveland or the Jets. I would not just assume that Cousins wants to come here though, or that he would take less money to come here.

Northman
01-03-2018, 12:30 PM
Also, for those who think Cousins sucks here are his numbers the last 3 years in wonderful Washington DC.

13, 176 yds passing, 81 TD's, 36 Ints.

And as for his game against the Giants and the 3 Ints i will only point to a year before Manning left Indy he went on a 3 game stretch and threw 11 Int's. Bad games can happen to any QB no matter the talent level. Considering what Kirk had to work with at WR and the injuries to the Redskins he put up some very good numbers. No one is going to convince me that he wouldnt be an automatic upgrade to this team.

CoachChaz
01-03-2018, 12:30 PM
Except the choice of where to sign is still up to Cousins. Much like the choice to sign was up to Manning when SF and Tenn were going after him. I seriously doubt with the disarray that Wash has that Cousins is looking to go to the Browns or some other team that has been struggling. I can guarantee that Cousins is looking for a franchise that is close to winning championships.

That's why I see this coming down to Denver and NYJ...with the edge to the Jets. Young team with a ton of cap space to improve vs. a team with a premier but aging defense.

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 12:31 PM
No player deserves getting overpaid including one Von Miller. But the market is what it is and if you are trying to improve your team you have to with the market or else fall behind. Trust me, when Brady retires the Patriots will be grasping and struggling to find their next franchise QB, it wont just fall in their lap. It just doesnt happen like that on the regular.

I can think of maybe two examples at best of teams finding a franchise QB in free agency though. And one of the two depends on how loosely you want to throw around the term franchise.

Brees and Manning. I can't off the top of my head think of any other situations where someone threw money at a QB that actually drastically benefited the franchise (that's not to say, there aren't other examples I'm not thinking of, but it's probably more rare to have a FA acquisition be your long term franchise QB than it is to find one in the draft.)

I mean, I guess the example could be made for the chiefs, who until week 17, had not won a game with a QB they drafted since the mid-80's, but they are also an example of it going wrong. Look at Matt Cassel, looked great in a system in New England, you take him out of that system and put him into another and he's trash. There is a longstanding history in the NFL of players hitting their big payday and disappearing.

We'll see what happens. We'll either sign Cousins or we won't. Either way, Broncos football goes on.

Northman
01-03-2018, 12:36 PM
I can think of maybe two examples at best of teams finding a franchise QB in free agency though. And one of the two depends on how loosely you want to throw around the term franchise.

Brees and Manning. I can't off the top of my head think of any other situations where someone threw money at a QB that actually drastically benefited the franchise (that's not to say, there aren't other examples I'm not thinking of, but it's probably more rare to have a FA acquisition be your long term franchise QB than it is to find one in the draft.)

I mean, I guess the example could be made for the chiefs, who until week 17, had not won a game with a QB they drafted since the mid-80's, but they are also an example of it going wrong. Look at Matt Cassel, looked great in a system in New England, you take him out of that system and put him into another and he's trash. There is a longstanding history in the NFL of players hitting their big payday and disappearing.

We'll see what happens. We'll either sign Cousins or we won't. Either way, Broncos football goes on.

Yea, i get what you are saying but the one advantage that Cousins has over the Matt Flynns and Matt Cassells is that he has more body of work to go from. Brock, Flynn, Cassell, Anderson, all those guys had like 1 year or less before teams blew their load on them. Cousins has six seasons under his belt with the last 3 being pretty good despite the w/l record for the team.

Rick
01-03-2018, 12:36 PM
I have said before and will say again, IF Cousins comes here AND we don't get stupid and get rid of Sanders or DT and we happen to have a TE step up (Butt?), Cousins will have a monster year with us. He will quite possibly be the number 1 QB in stats.

Does that make him the #1 QB in talent? No, but he is already based on the last 3 years a top 5 QB and he has never had this kind of talent at WR.

underrated29
01-03-2018, 12:37 PM
No he wont. Because the bidding war works out the same for everyone. At best, there would be 4 teams bidding for Cousins. WAS, CLE, DEN, NYJ. Basing that on immediate need and available money. But all 4 teams also have the options to sign a lesser vet AND draft a future QB. So any of those teams can say "25 or 27 per year is as high as we go. Past that, we move to plan B". Kind of what Denver did with Oz. Here is where we'll go...anything past that, se la vie.

So, if Cousins "demands" 30 mil and those 4 teams choose to draft Rosen, Mayfield, Rudolph, Jackson, Allen, etc. to groom under a lesser vet, then Cousins is left without a team and his price drops. I really have faith that all 4 teams are smart enough to go the smarter route, thus limiting the contract on Cousins. If there were lesser talent in the draft...maybe. But there are too many talented draft options available. I think all 4 teams have a number in their head that they'll go to and if it's the same number for all 4, then Cousins just has to decide which is his preference. But he's not getting 30 mil.




Agreed.
And I have heard that we are all in on cousins and want to take the Nelson kid at G with our first pick. I know cousins has interest in coming here too. This could work out quite well.

If we do land cousins for about the 25mil +/- you are mentioning and we grab Nelson (maybe trade down a few slots add another 1st or 2nd perhaps) we are still loaded going into pick 40. I havent gotten into prospects yet, but I have to imagine there is going to be a stud DL or ILB or CB or T or RB at 40.


If we do land cousins I fully expect us to get 2 OL within the top 105 players.

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 12:39 PM
Yea, i get what you are saying but the one advantage that Cousins has over the Matt Flynns and Matt Cassells is that he has more body of work to go from. Brock, Flynn, Cassell, Anderson, all those guys had like 1 year or less before teams blew their load on them. Cousins has six seasons under his belt with the last 3 being pretty good despite the w/l record for the team.

And I absolutely get that and I do agree with you on this portion, I almost brought that up, but my post was already a Joel sized novel.

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 12:41 PM
I have said before and will say again, IF Cousins comes here AND we don't get stupid and get rid of Sanders or DT and we happen to have a TE step up (Butt?), Cousins will have a monster year with us. He will quite possibly be the number 1 QB in stats.

Does that make him the #1 QB in talent? No, but he is already based on the last 3 years a top 5 QB and he has never had this kind of talent at WR.

Sanders is likely gone per Vic Lombardi. He tweeted out the other day that neither Sanders or Talib are expected to be retained and that would free up around $22M.

Rick
01-03-2018, 12:46 PM
Only reason I could see dropping Sanders is he has dropped off a bit, but he still has a great quickness and catches nearly everything thrown to him. Who would replace him? That person is not on the roster IMO. Not in production capability anyway.

underrated29
01-03-2018, 12:46 PM
Jake Plummer, northy. You cannot forget Jake the Snake!!

underrated29
01-03-2018, 12:47 PM
Only reason I could see dropping Sanders is he has dropped off a bit, but he still has a great quickness and catches nearly everything thrown to him. Who would replace him? That person is not on the roster IMO. Not in production capability anyway.



Carlos Henderson.

I do not want to get rid of Sanders though. He is my fave wr on the team right now. I think he'd be back to a 80/1100 year if we had a QB like Cappy Kirk

Northman
01-03-2018, 12:52 PM
Only reason I could see dropping Sanders is he has dropped off a bit, but he still has a great quickness and catches nearly everything thrown to him. Who would replace him? That person is not on the roster IMO. Not in production capability anyway.

I love Sanders as much as the next guy but i do think he will be gone. DT costs to much to get rid of unless you trade him and i dont see Denver doing that especially if they want to sign a guy like Cousins. As far as replacing Sanders it can be done. I have a feeling that Fitzgerald may want to leave Arizona and might be looking for one last hooray before he retires. Martavis Bryant, Davante Adams, Taylor Gabriel, Jarvis Landry, Allen Robinson, are potential FA targets. Not too mention Denver could use a draft pick to grab one.

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 01:00 PM
Jake Plummer, northy. You cannot forget Jake the Snake!!

Touche...

Rick
01-03-2018, 01:05 PM
To be honest I completely forgot Carlos was on the roster.

Mike
01-03-2018, 01:07 PM
I am fine with letting Sanders go....as long as we get a competent oline and a good QB. A competent oline and a good QB will get more out of any WR core than a good QB, good WR, and crappy oline.

Have to both fix the oline and QB. Whatever it takes. Anything short of that will result in the same garbage we got this year.

Buff
01-03-2018, 01:10 PM
I am fine with letting Sanders go....as long as we get a competent oline and a good QB. A competent oline and a good QB will get more out of any WR core than a good QB, good WR, and crappy oline.

Have to both fix the oline and QB. Whatever it takes. Anything short of that will result in the same garbage we got this year.

This is my POV in general. I don't want to lose Talib or Sanders, per se, but having talented guys on the outside is a luxury that you can't afford when your front 7 & o-line/QB play is a dumpster fire. Gotta build from the inside out and if we need to reallocate those dollars then that might be a tradeoff we have to live with.

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 01:25 PM
This is my POV in general. I don't want to lose Talib or Sanders, per se, but having talented guys on the outside is a luxury that you can't afford when your front 7 & o-line/QB play is a dumpster fire. Gotta build from the inside out and if we need to reallocate those dollars then that might be a tradeoff we have to live with.

I hate the idea of Talib going, but $11M is $11m and when you have to free up cap space, his contract basically makes him expendable even if his play on the field absolutely does not. Same with Sanders, between him and DT, he's the expendable option. If I had my choice, I'd ship DT the hell out of here, but it would cost more to ship DT out than Sanders so Sanders is expendable.

Rick
01-03-2018, 01:30 PM
Thing with Sanders is it will only save 5.5 million if they cut him.

Freyaka
01-03-2018, 02:10 PM
Thing with Sanders is it will only save 5.5 million if they cut him.

That's actually only partially true. If they designate him a post-June 1 cut (zero reason not to, doesn't hurt us to do so) he'll save us over $8M dollars. The figure you are quoting is if we cut him out right without the post-June 1 cut designation. (Source:OvertheCap)

Ground Control
01-06-2018, 02:19 AM
I have said before and will say again, IF Cousins comes here AND we don't get stupid and get rid of Sanders or DT and we happen to have a TE step up (Butt?), Cousins will have a monster year with us. He will quite possibly be the number 1 QB in stats.

Does that make him the #1 QB in talent? No, but he is already based on the last 3 years a top 5 QB and he has never had this kind of talent at WR.

He's in the worse half in interception rate the last three years. That brings up painful and fresh scars but...otherwise, I agree. It's all about Elway's number though. This is one of the few times I'm all about Elway.

1) He's got the pull and experience to bring in a ringer like Cousins.

2) He's always got a number. For evey player, Elway has a number and if he can't get it, he moves on. Sometimes that's a bad thing but with Cousins, I think it's good. Cousins isn't worth his hype, period. Going full-on emotional, as most here do, he hasn't carried a team on his back anywhere. He's solid and top 5 in important categories but the Redskins will let him go because he hasn't done anything worth top dollar for them (top 10 at best in turnovers and well, not being superman). Staying emotional, we Broncos fans assume we have a better team to surround him with than the Redskins but didn't we get a hell of a wake up this season? Yeah, plenty of close calls could have changed the season but if we have an injury riddled season next year...like the Redskins had this year...

...would we be any better of than them, having Cousins pad his stats while getting us nowhere of importance?

I like him. I'm just saying money and coaching.

He has to come to us knowing he has to work his ass off to earn his 'moderate' salary of 25 mil(ish) - (my estimation of his worth) - and we need to reinvigorate the team around him with better coaching/ leadership.

Ground Control
01-06-2018, 02:40 AM
This is my POV in general. I don't want to lose Talib or Sanders, per se, but having talented guys on the outside is a luxury that you can't afford when your front 7 & o-line/QB play is a dumpster fire. Gotta build from the inside out and if we need to reallocate those dollars then that might be a tradeoff we have to live with.

Mostly agreed but I have seen that the entire league is cursed by dumpster fires. We just need a star at right tackle and another right/ left guard. We had the number 5 run game in the NFL. That can't be done with a horrible o-line. We had horrible QBs. While it's mostly (rightly) assumed that it's the o-line that makes the QB, if a QB holds on to long, has no idea what a 'pocket' is, and makes all the wrong calls, what can any o-line do? We sucked hard in the early part of the season but not so much later and I think we have hard positives moving forward. Use of tight ends and running backs is another huge factor. Without going into the details I'm sure you're aware of, we failed in a hard manner on using these positions to accentuate protection and divert attention. Basically, a star right tackle and one great guard and we're there. Along with the other things I mentioned.

Otherwise, I freakin' love Talib but I loved Ward also. I won't fall into the trap of saying that Talib is over the hill...I think he's got years ahead of him as a true badass on other teams (hopefully not in our division)...but he costs too much and we have great replacements.

Sanders is a game maker but not a defense breaker, if that makes sense. He's always reliable but only when we have a QB that can take advantage of his skills. If we have to sacrifice him to get that QB, I'm ok with that. That same QB can turn another receiver into the next Sanders.

Cugel
01-06-2018, 06:59 PM
Since Cousins announced recently that the Redskins are "all in" on re-signing him they are obviously not just going to let him walk. They will try and re-sign him. Failing that they will either franchise him at $34.6m or else transition tag him and try to match other offers.

Thus, the team that signs him must make an offer the Redskins cannot or will not afford to match. That practically guarantees that he'll be overpaid by a lot.

I don't know how Elway can change that dynamic. He doesn't have a magic wand like Harry Potter to wave and magically the Redskins agree to let Cousins walk.

Perhaps he could work a trade, but that would necessarily involve negotiating with Cousins, and that means paying market rate. And that rate is quickly going to escalate once teams start the bidding war for Cousins. Before that could happen, the Redskins would need to franchise Cousins so he'd be under contract. He might not sign the franchise tender though if he thought the Redskins were trying to trade him. He could reject the contract, sit out and force their hand. They would then have to trade his rights and he could accept or reject the team to which he would be dealt because they would have to work out a long term deal with Cousins as part of any deal.

He's the first completely healthy top 10 QB to hit the FA market, in like ever. Peyton had 4 necks surgeries, so it was a completely different situation. Nobody was sure he would ever play again or how good he'd be if he did. It was a total gamble, which Elway made and it paid off.

So, there's never been any FA like this in the history of FA.

Ground Control
01-07-2018, 12:26 AM
Since Cousins announced recently that the Redskins are "all in" on re-signing him they are obviously not just going to let him walk. They will try and re-sign him. Failing that they will either franchise him at $34.6m or else transition tag him and try to match other offers.

Thus, the team that signs him must make an offer the Redskins cannot or will not afford to match. That practically guarantees that he'll be overpaid by a lot.

I don't know how Elway can change that dynamic. He doesn't have a magic wand like Harry Potter to wave and magically the Redskins agree to let Cousins walk.

Perhaps he could work a trade, but that would necessarily involve negotiating with Cousins, and that means paying market rate. And that rate is quickly going to escalate once teams start the bidding war for Cousins. Before that could happen, the Redskins would need to franchise Cousins so he'd be under contract. He might not sign the franchise tender though if he thought the Redskins were trying to trade him. He could reject the contract, sit out and force their hand. They would then have to trade his rights and he could accept or reject the team to which he would be dealt because they would have to work out a long term deal with Cousins as part of any deal.

He's the first completely healthy top 10 QB to hit the FA market, in like ever. Peyton had 4 necks surgeries, so it was a completely different situation. Nobody was sure he would ever play again or how good he'd be if he did. It was a total gamble, which Elway made and it paid off.

So, there's never been any FA like this in the history of FA.

I've read otherwise but can totally see this as being true, since it's all about rumors at this point. If they do franchise him, or transition him, all good. We shouldn't get into any bidding war and I'm sure Elway will stick to his number, regardless. I have just watched a coupe of interviews where Cousins talks about wanting stability. He has no say about the franchise tag but it is worth noting. Elway has a huuuuuge ego and I do believe he can sell being a Bronco and living in Denver. Washington hasn't done anything, even with Cousins at the helm (a negative on him, IMO), so I don't know they will pay him ridonculous money next year, just because.

Just a thought though. All good if they do. We can move on. If they don't, I would be very interested in seeing how Elway plays the game. Cousins isn't worth breaking the bank and future of the team, since we need money to make a better team around whomever we get at QB.

Ground Control
01-07-2018, 12:49 AM
As much as I love him being a Bronco, I agree with you.

He's an awesome player but if nothing else, he can stay and yell at players during practice and at games. Unfortunately, he might throw out his neck doing his animal roar. I do hope he stays as a player though. He's a freakin' beast and offers no bs.

Ground Control
01-07-2018, 12:57 AM
I have no issues what so ever in the team spending around 30 mil on Cousins, no matter how many words people type.

I think we can afford it with very little changes to the roster.

Cousins will quite possibly lead the league in yards if we can find a TE to match with DT and Sanders.

Stats, man. Stats mean nothing. Agreed on his potential with us and a great TE but do we want to have a guy that gets great stats, or a guy that can lead us to the SB? Not saying your wrong. Only saying your assessment is incomplete. I'm down if he gets those stats and proves to be the leader that moves through the playoffs, into the SB. We have no proof that he can do that though. Period.

Cugel
01-07-2018, 01:59 AM
I've read otherwise but can totally see this as being true, since it's all about rumors at this point. If they do franchise him, or transition him, all good. We shouldn't get into any bidding war and I'm sure Elway will stick to his number, regardless. I have just watched a coupe of interviews where Cousins talks about wanting stability. He has no say about the franchise tag but it is worth noting. Elway has a huuuuuge ego and I do believe he can sell being a Bronco and living in Denver. Washington hasn't done anything, even with Cousins at the helm (a negative on him, IMO), so I don't know they will pay him ridonculous money next year, just because.

Just a thought though. All good if they do. We can move on. If they don't, I would be very interested in seeing how Elway plays the game. Cousins isn't worth breaking the bank and future of the team, since we need money to make a better team around whomever we get at QB.

It would obviously be a bad idea to break the bank to obtain Cousins. But, if he were on this roster the Broncos are a playoff and potentially a SB team. They'd have to get some weapons around him, and they'd have to strengthen the OL, but they would have a top 5 pick in every round to do that with.

But, the news is that Cousins himself says "the Redskins are now all in" (meaning they weren't before.)

That means they are trying to keep him. They will possibly succeed.

Ground Control
01-07-2018, 02:08 AM
It would obviously be a bad idea to break the bank to obtain Cousins. But, if he were on this roster the Broncos are a playoff and potentially a SB team. They'd have to get some weapons around him, and they'd have to strengthen the OL, but they would have a top 5 pick in every round to do that with.

But, the news is that Cousins himself says "the Redskins are now all in" (meaning they weren't before.)

That means they are trying to keep him. They will possibly succeed.

Right on. If they keep him, they should stop playing games, it only hurts them in negotiations with him (outside of the 'franchise' tag). I otherwise agree that we would be a guaranteed playoff team with him. I just don't know how far we would go after that. Could be good. Could be amazing. Could be a shit show. We have little evidence of his performance in the playoffs, outside of his two loses. Not saying that defines him. Just saying we have nothing that defines him as the guy that can handle the championship-stress-stuff. The playoffs are riddled with examples of star QBs that crumbled under that pressure. I do believe Cousins is a potential winner in the post season but I am tired of giving the benefit of the doubt to hopefuls. I know he's more than a hopeful in every aspect but the playoffs. But yeah, playoffs. He's still a great FA choice, I just think he's not a given SB QB and his salary should reflect that.

Maybe a decent contract for a few years, then he can demand more if he succeeds here? 'Course, if Washington keeps him, it's all mute.

Cugel
01-08-2018, 02:37 PM
We saw over and over guys like Drew Brees playing amazing football and winning even when his running game was totally shut down (against the Panthers). There just aren't that many QBs in the NFL who can take over a game like that: Brees, Brady, Roethlisberger, Rogers.

The Broncos aren't getting a guy like that. There is no one like that available unless the unthinkable happens and Drew Brees becomes available. So, the Broncos are left with a choice: overpay for a FA QB who might be good enough to get you into the playoffs and then you'll have to win with great defense (which this team no longer has but Jacksonville now does), or else draft and develop a QB and take your lumps for a few years until the rookie is established.

Some times that works, and some times it doesn't. It appears as if Elway is going to try and do both: draft a rookie QB and also sign a veteran FA. If he can't land Cousins or Teddy Bridgewater, or manage a trade for Alex Smith, he might just sign a lower FA QB like Sam Bradford and go with the rookie as soon as he's ready.

That is a long term strategy though and Elway is notoriously impatient. He wanted to fire Vance Joseph after this season and will certainly do so if the team struggles next year. We could be facing another rebuilding effort in 2019 with an entirely new coaching staff and a bunch of new players.

Unfortunately, that is what routinely happens to elite teams that lose their Hall of Fame QB. They tend to struggle for years after that.

Mike Shanahan was a great coach, but he won 1 playoff game in ten seasons after Elway retired. True, Shanahan the GM had something to do with that, but Elway the GM hasn't been great at drafting either.

Cugel
01-08-2018, 02:40 PM
Maybe a decent contract for a few years, then he can demand more if he succeeds here? 'Course, if Washington keeps him, it's all mute.

Last edited by Ground Control; Yesterday at 12:13 AM.

I think you meant "moot" but we'll take mute too! Muting all the commentary on Kirk Cousins if he stays in DC will be one plus.

Rick
01-10-2018, 01:13 PM
http://gazette.com/woody-paige-getting-kirk-cousins-must-be-denver-broncos-new-years-resolution/article/1618710

Poet
01-10-2018, 01:32 PM
So this is my arbitrary analysis that means nothing. When you look at a QB and paying him a ton, you want to make sure his pay (factoring in FA making people overpaid) is commensurate with his play. We judge QB's against one another....so here we go. I like to do this in breakdowns throughout the league via divisions, so there's that.

AFCN - Big Ben is the only QB here who is better than KC. Dalton's inconsistent, Flacco is average at best, and Cleveland has no one at the position.

AFCS - Jury's still out on Watson and how he will come back from his injury. Luck is someone I am excluding from analysis because of the controversy around him and his status. Assuming Luck is back and healthy, he's a top five QB, so when we 'know' if he's coming back, he's another QB ahead of KC. Mariota just had a big regression year, and his top end play is good, but Cousins has arguably been great.

AFCW - Rivers is still a monster. Carr, while having an off year, was coming off of an injury and a dysfunctional team. He gets an edge over him. Smith is interesting as he just had a good year, but I'm not certain where he will play next season, and he's still mostly a game manager.

AFCE - Tom Brady is still tops in the league. Cutler/Tannehill out of Mia is underwhelming, Taylor is a solid guy, nothing more (I wouldn't mind seeing him in Denver, though), NY has no one.


So, out of the AFC, Cousins is arguably a top five QB. In this sense, signing him is a boon.

However, the NFC is a different beast, and this is where signing Cousins is a little scary because he doesn't stack up nearly as well against those QB's.

Look at the NFCN - KC is clearly behind both Rodgers and Stafford. Rodgers is a first ballot HoFer in his prime, and Stafford has won a playoff game and had more 'stat god seasons' than KC.

Then, look at the NFCS - Brees is still above KC, Newton is a former MVP and a game changer, Winston, while up and down, is arguably on par with KC (I'd take KC over him) and Matt Ryan is a proven top flight QB. We are only halfway through the NFC and two divisions already sport five superior QB's.

NFCE - Dak is a high end game manager, and while there is a place for that, he's not asked to win games. I can't take a game manager over a full blown QB. Eli is past his prime, but Wentz just went nuts and had a solid rookie year. I can't take Cousins over Wentz.

NFCW - Goff is debatable, but I'll Cousins over Goff even though I took Wentz over Cousins. Why? MOstly because Goff looked so horrid his rookie year, and I think scheme and schedule really did a lot of 'good' for the rookie. It's not the best argument, though. Goff is a talent, he did great, and a lot of rookies are putrid. I still edge KC over him though. The eye test is much kinder to KC and Wentz than it is to Goff. Jimmy G is interesting as all get out, but KC has shown more. We all known Wilson is the real deal.

By my count, Cousins would be the eighth best QB in the NFC. However, he's on par with about half of the guys I ranked above him. I have him ranked as the 12/13th best QB in the league.

However, he's done well in a tough circumstance and I don't think his ceiling has been met. Furthermore, we don't play all the NFC QB's, we're an AFC team and a defensive based team. On top of that, Cousins is on par with over half the list that I deem to be superior, and some of those guys won't be around forever, either.

I say we sign his ass!

CoachChaz
01-10-2018, 02:41 PM
Can we just take the transition tag off the table, please? Skins wont transition him because a cap rich team like the Jets or Browns could come in and offer a ridiculous signing bonus that Washington couldn't match and then they'd lose him for nothing. I think there is a (very slim) chance they franchise him again, but the more realistic options are to try to re-sign him long term or let him walk and get draft compensation.

Freyaka
01-10-2018, 03:00 PM
Can we just take the transition tag off the table, please? Skins wont transition him because a cap rich team like the Jets or Browns could come in and offer a ridiculous signing bonus that Washington couldn't match and then they'd lose him for nothing. I think there is a (very slim) chance they franchise him again, but the more realistic options are to try to re-sign him long term or let him walk and get draft compensation.

Transition no, but they can still franchise tag him one last time for old times sake.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-10-2018, 06:15 PM
Can we just take the transition tag off the table, please? Skins wont transition him because a cap rich team like the Jets or Browns could come in and offer a ridiculous signing bonus that Washington couldn't match and then they'd lose him for nothing. I think there is a (very slim) chance they franchise him again, but the more realistic options are to try to re-sign him long term or let him walk and get draft compensation.

Would they get a fourth if he was signed by someone else?

Cugel
01-10-2018, 06:16 PM
Can we just take the transition tag off the table, please? Skins wont transition him because a cap rich team like the Jets or Browns could come in and offer a ridiculous signing bonus that Washington couldn't match and then they'd lose him for nothing. I think there is a (very slim) chance they franchise him again, but the more realistic options are to try to re-sign him long term or let him walk and get draft compensation.

After looking at the news I now think you are right and that they won't bother with the transition tag. That leaves either sign him to a long term deal, or franchise him.

The problem is that he won't just sign a long term deal, because he wants maximum negotiating leverage, and that means taking offers from other teams once FA commences. That practically guarantees they have to franchise him, then try and negotiate a deal. He would take that deal assuming that it was for around $30m a year since that's what he'd get in FA.

But, even if he does become a FA, about 10 teams, many of them with more money than the Broncos will be in a bidding war for him. The odds he comes here are very low.

In fact, unless the Broncos sign Teddy Bridgewater or Case Keenum, I'd say they are looking at signing Sam Bradford and drafting a rookie.

That would not be great, but it's probably the best they can do without breaking the bank and dumping a bunch of salary (beyond losing Talib and CJ Anderson, whose twitter rant about the Broncos firing his running backs coach indicates he probably doesn't think he's coming back). They might fire all the discontented players and dump Sanders too.

You don't go on social media and criticize your bosses and not have any consequences and those guys have (in Talib's case of course it's his salary that is the problem since they have Roby who is younger and cheaper whom they need to re-sign). The defensive backs all criticized the firing of TJ Ward in not very diplomatic terms. And the negativity just escalated from there.

HORSEPOWER 56
01-10-2018, 06:37 PM
I really want Cousins, but not at the expense of 2 first round draft picks. If they use the non exclusive tag, I’m not going to be happy giving up the #5 overall and next year’s first to have the priveledge to sign him to a huge contract. We have holes to fill, too.

If that’s the cost, we should just draft a QB to be the future.

Cugel
01-10-2018, 11:08 PM
I really want Cousins, but not at the expense of 2 first round draft picks. If they use the non exclusive tag, I’m not going to be happy giving up the #5 overall and next year’s first to have the privilege to sign him to a huge contract. We have holes to fill, too.

If that’s the cost, we should just draft a QB to be the future.

I think Elway agrees with you. I can't see him giving up the #5 pick to trade for a veteran FA. Plus, obviously the Redskins aren't interested in trading Cousins. They will only trade him IF they can't work out a long term contract. But, in that case, they'd have to franchise him first, and then trade his rights.

That would be a very complicated negotiation, because Cousins wouldn't have to agree to anything. HE could hold out and demand to choose his own team. They could agree on a trade in principle, with the understanding that the team would have some time to work out a deal with Cousins before any compensation would be due the Redskins.

Then it would come down to whether that team could sell Cousins on a deal.

NightTerror218
01-11-2018, 01:47 PM
Cousins is worth it

Paying millions to a cap friendly horrible QB is not.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-11-2018, 09:58 PM
Cousins is worth it

Paying millions to a cap friendly horrible QB is not.

Indeed

Cugel
01-13-2018, 09:39 PM
Cousins is worth it

Paying millions to a cap friendly horrible QB is not.

What?? You mean you don't want a repeat of the immortal Trevor Siemian era? :eek:

But, Trevor was cheap, and Paxton is tall! I mean really tall. He's quite a tall guy. Vance Joseph said so when asked to comment on Paxton's performance. "He's tall." Best to stop right there I guess.

Poet
01-13-2018, 09:40 PM
At one point you were slobbering over TS, too, Cugel. Don't talk greasy.

Poet
01-13-2018, 09:57 PM
At one point you were slobbering over TS, too, Cugel. Don't talk greasy.

Be nice to Cugel, you monster!

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-13-2018, 11:09 PM
:laugh:

:laugh:

:laugh:

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-13-2018, 11:09 PM
I was high on Trevor once too, as it turns out I was just High it would seem.

Poet
01-13-2018, 11:18 PM
I was high on Trevor once too, as it turns out I was just High it would seem.

When a guy has to put his entire arm into deep throws, it's usually a bad sign.

But I tried to convince me that he was somehow good at football after the first four games this season. I knew better, but god dammit I wanted to believe.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-13-2018, 11:27 PM
When a guy has to put his entire arm into deep throws, it's usually a bad sign.

But I tried to convince me that he was somehow good at football after the first four games this season. I knew better, but god dammit I wanted to believe.
Most of his floaters are due to horrible footwork

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-13-2018, 11:29 PM
The dude throws flat footed even when he doesn’t have to

Poet
01-13-2018, 11:33 PM
Most of his floaters are due to horrible footwork

He has a Drew Brees arm without the mechanics to make up for it. It's why he *can* throw deep balls (sort of) but all of his sideline deep out throws are so pathetic. Not much arm. Meh mechanics. Easily panicked. Just a bad player who lucked into the league in the first place.

Cugel
01-14-2018, 12:10 AM
At one point you were slobbering over TS, too, Cugel. Don't talk greasy.

I thought at his best that Siemian could be a poor man's Alex Smith. That's what Alfred Williams was claiming any way. Before the bye-week he looked like that could conceivably be right.

But, I have spent endless time on these boards pointing out how seldom 7th round picks become star QBs. It's much less than 1 in 100. So, I never thought Siemian would be a top 10 QB or something. I did hope he would turn out to be competent and in that expectation I was as mistaken as you.

Cugel
01-14-2018, 12:13 AM
Be nice to Cugel, you monster!

I don't think you were taking into account just how freakishly tall Paxton is. I mean in comparison to Trevor he is a complete giraffe browsing on the tenderest shoots at the top of the trees. That is one tall QB. Yes sir!

Broncoknight30
01-14-2018, 10:59 AM
Cousins has sure made a difference for the Redskins win loss records. Oh, wait....

The question of course is this....

Is Cousins good enough to overcome the bad OL and bad defense they will have as a result of the enormous salary he will demand and get? Is he that good? What evidence do we have that supports that?

underrated29
01-14-2018, 11:27 AM
Cousins has sure made a difference for the Redskins win loss records. Oh, wait....

The question of course is this....

Is Cousins good enough to overcome the bad OL and bad defense they will have as a result of the enormous salary he will demand and get? Is he that good? What evidence do we have that supports that?


What evidence do you have to support that we will have a bad defense and ol because we sign him?

JPPT1974
01-14-2018, 01:53 PM
Just hate what that of in the Redskins management are giving Kirk a very raw deal IMHO!

Nomad
01-14-2018, 02:09 PM
What evidence do you have to support that we will have a bad defense and ol because we sign him?

Denver will have a solid OL after they draft Nelson. ;)

Cugel
01-14-2018, 02:23 PM
Cousins has sure made a difference for the Redskins win loss records. Oh, wait....

The question of course is this....

Is Cousins good enough to overcome the bad OL and bad defense they will have as a result of the enormous salary he will demand and get? Is he that good? What evidence do we have that supports that?

Well, they got rid of all his weapons this season, and I mean all. He was throwing to dudes who were hardly even backups. Yet, he managed to win 7 games. That was about a 4 win team.

Put him on a 7 win team like the Broncos with a few simple improvements, like a TE who can catch passes for instance, and an OL that can block, and you have a 9 win team. And that's a division winner, especially in this division where none of the other teams are very good.

I mean, it's not as if the Chefs and Chargers and Raiders are powerhouses. In the last 10 years, AFC West division winners other than the Broncos are 1-5 in the playoffs, and other than the Broncos AFC West Wild Cards are 2-5.

In the last 10 years, AFC West teams other than the Broncos are 3-10 in the playoffs, and this year, 0-1 as the Chefs were bounced immediately again. The Broncos can beat that lot if they get decent QB play and add a little strength at a few key positions.

I'm not saying they will go from 5-11 to SB champions, but if they got Cousins (not likely) they could easily win the division.

Cugel
01-14-2018, 02:35 PM
Just hate what that of in the Redskins management are giving Kirk a very raw deal IMHO!

How is it a "raw deal" if they screw up so badly, that he gets franchise tag money $24m last year, for two straight years, and now is set to make at least $30m a year, unless they franchise him again at $34.6m for one year. I wish someone would give me such a raw deal! I'll sign that all day long!

Truth is the Redskins screwed themselves, not Cousins who now stands to make more money than any QB in NFL history, and to become the record setting QB contract guy, the guy who breaks through into new QB salary territory.

The salary cap keeps going up every year, and yet teams are trying to squeeze the players and keep more of their money, arguing that "it's too much!"

OK, Redskins. You don't want to pay "exorbitant" $ to your QB. You think he isn't worth what you will have to pay him, now that you have screwed the pooch every which way but loose. You idiots have nobody to blame but themselves.

Better get used to life in the wilderness for the next few years while Cousins leads some other team into the playoffs. They will have to draft a QB, but have only the 12th pick to do it with. Good luck with someone like Lamar Jackson next year as your starting QB Redskins!

Meanwhile, I'll take Cousins and go to the playoffs, thanks! :wave:

Broncoknight30
01-14-2018, 05:21 PM
What evidence do you have to support that we will have a bad defense and ol because we sign him?

Plenty of evidence that paying QBs top dollar does NOT translate into championships.

Here are the top 10 paid QBs.

Lions QB Matthew Stafford: $27 million
Raiders QB Derek Carr: $25 million
Colts QB Andrew Luck: $24.6 million
Saints QB Drew Brees: $24.3 million
Redskins QB Kirk Cousins: $23.9 million
Ravens QB Joe Flacco: $22.1 million
Packers QB Aaron Rodgers: $22 million
Seahawks QB Russell Wilson: $21.9 million
Steelers QB Ben Roethlisberger: $21.85 million
Cardinals QB Carson Palmer: $21 million; Giants QB Eli Manning: $21 million


There is the top 10. So, lets discuss how important it is to land a franchise QB again, which is the same thing as a high priced QB. BTW, we will see what Carson Wentz will get when he is up for contract in Philly.*

Aaron Rodgers, is great. Has not been to the SB since 2010. That, was 7 years ago. They have not had an adequate defense since that year. Oh, that year they were ranked...I believe top 5. If not first very high. I think they only gave up 15 points per game that year. Broncos in 2015 gave up 18.5 points per game, just give a perspective on that. The Packers defense has not been so high since they paid Rodgers.*

Russell Wilson recently got paid after they won it. They have not been quite the same have they?*

Anyone noticing anything about that list in relation to Super Bowls? Roethlisberger has not won it since 2008, and Brees not since 2009. Is that telling or not?

The 4 QBs that probably be the championship games next week will be...
Tom Brady (17 highest paid QB.)
Blake Bortles
Nick Foles
Casey Keenum

Bottom line is those top paid QBs are costing teams vitally in crucial areas. Cousins will be demanding more than that.

Northman
01-14-2018, 05:25 PM
So what is your answer Knight. What would you do that would guarantee the Broncos will be in multiple SB's for the next 15 years? How can you guarantee the Broncos long term success at the QB position?

Broncoknight30
01-14-2018, 05:32 PM
So what is your answer Knight. What would you do that would guarantee the Broncos will be in multiple SB's for the next 15 years? How can you guarantee the Broncos long term success at the QB position?

I really dont have an answer. I literally have no idea. What I know is paying crazy money to any one player, does NOT translate into championships.

There is just plenty of evidence of that claim. We can add what the Flacco salary did to the Ravens after they won it. They immediately needed to get rid of 7 key players and they have not been the same team since.

As fans we should be more aware that throwing big money does not mean much.

I have been whining about the hard cap and this is the reason.

Northman
01-14-2018, 05:33 PM
I really dont have an answer. I literally have no idea. What I know is paying crazy money to any one player, does NOT translate into championships.

There is just plenty of evidence of that claim. We can add what the Flacco salary did to the Ravens after they won it. They immediately needed to get rid of 7 key players and they have not been the same team since.

As fans we should be more aware that throwing big money does not mean much.

I have been whining about the hard cap and this is the reason.

So you think it was a bad idea to pay Miller all the money we did as well?

Broncoknight30
01-14-2018, 05:40 PM
So you think it was a bad idea to pay Miller all the money we did as well?

I think that was worth it. He does not demand as much money as a "franchise QB." I think Osweiler gets paid more money than him. I know he gets more money than Brady. Besides I happen to think a quality edge rusher is the 2nd most valuable commodity for a championship team.

Aaron Rodgers could be the one QB that is legitimately better than Brady, and he has not been to the SB since 2010. He is far better than Cousins in my estimation.

Why we think Cousins would mean anything automatic is just confusing to me. Like I said, there is A LOT of evidence that it won't mean a thing.

Northman
01-14-2018, 05:43 PM
I think that was worth it. He does not demand as much money as a "franchise QB." I think Osweiler gets paid more money than him. I know he gets more money than Brady.

Aaron Rodgers could be the one QB that is legitimately better than Brady, and he has not been to the SB since 2010. He is far better than Cousins in my estimation.

Why we think Cousins would mean anything automatic is just confusing to me. Like I said, there is A LOT of evidence that it won't mean a thing.

No one said that Cousins is automatic, no player is. But he is much more proven than some rookie or unknown. That is the difference. As far as Rodgers is concerned, he's not on the market so bringing him up is irrelevant at this juncture.

Broncoknight30
01-14-2018, 05:47 PM
No one said that Cousins is automatic, no player is. But he is much more proven than some rookie or unknown. That is the difference. As far as Rodgers is concerned, he's not on the market so bringing him up is irrelevant at this juncture.

Rodgers salary is what makes it relevant to the point I am making. Never suggested the Broncos could land Rodgers. It is just that his salary costs them in crucial areas. Their defense has not been adequate since he got the big contract and they have never been back to the SB since. That is relevant to what I am saying.

Northman
01-14-2018, 05:54 PM
Rodgers salary is what makes it relevant to the point I am making. Never suggested the Broncos could land Rodgers. It is just that his salary costs them in crucial areas. Their defense has not been adequate since he got the big contract and they have never been back to the SB since. That is relevant to what I am saying.

Except, when you look at all the SB winners for the past 10 years its all a bunch of familiar names with one hit wonder exceptions. Im just not sure what answer you have that is better than what is already proven in terms of winning championships. My guess is you would rather just rebuild until we find a QB who can make the organization a believer which could take years, am i correct in assuming that is your outlook? The teams that pay their QB's have a much higher chance of making the playoffs on the regular and much higher chance of making the SB than teams with one hit wonders.

Broncoknight30
01-14-2018, 06:06 PM
Except, when you look at all the SB winners for the past 10 years its all a bunch of familiar names with one hit wonder exceptions. Im just not sure what answer you have that is better than what is already proven in terms of winning championships. My guess is you would rather just rebuild until we find a QB who can make the organization a believer which could take years, am i correct in assuming that is your outlook? The teams that pay their QB's have a much higher chance of making the playoffs on the regular and much higher chance of making the SB than teams with one hit wonders.

All*we need is a productive QB that has a relatively small salary that does not totally bankrupt the franchise and makes it possible to sign some key free agents. You know, like the Pats.

Cause we can see what these gigantic QB salaries have done to certain franchises. Like Luck. Everyone blames them for NOT putting a team around him. Want to know why? Not that hard to figure out.

Northman
01-14-2018, 06:10 PM
All*we need is a productive QB that has a relatively small salary that does not totally bankrupt the franchise and makes it possible to sign some key free agents. You know, like the Pats.

Cause we can see what these gigantic QB salaries have done to certain franchises. Like Luck. Everyone blames them for NOT putting a team around him. Want to know why? Not that hard to figure out.

Flacco, after winning it in 2012, gets a big pay day. They immediately needed to get rid of 7 players, many of them key players.*

Have not really done shi since.

Dont kid yourself man, Brady got paid a long time ago much like Elway did before he restructured down the road. All young QB's take the money early because their futures are never guaranteed health wise. Flacco and Luck are not HOF'rs either (at least yet) so i wouldnt use them as great examples of the point you are trying to make. Bmore was incredibly stupid to pay Flacco all the money they did no question about it. Brady is a horrible example because they guy got paid a long time ago and had the luxury to restructure his contract long after the fact. Any other QB not getting paid big contracts are sitting at home come playoff time. I dont think you are sitting in the real world when dealing with the most important position in football.

Broncoknight30
01-14-2018, 06:28 PM
Dont kid yourself man, Brady got paid a long time ago much like Elway did before he restructured down the road. All young QB's take the money early because their futures are never guaranteed health wise. Flacco and Luck are not HOF'rs either (at least yet) so i wouldnt use them as great examples of the point you are trying to make. Bmore was incredibly stupid to pay Flacco all the money they did no question about it. Brady is a horrible example because they guy got paid a long time ago and had the luxury to restructure his contract long after the fact. Any other QB not getting paid big contracts are sitting at home come playoff time. I dont think you are sitting in the real world when dealing with the most important position in football.

It is about what a players salary officially counts AGAINST THE CAP. I understand Brady is paid whatever, but his current salary is the 17th highest among QBs. The Pats have a major advantage in more ways than one.

Cugel
01-14-2018, 06:32 PM
Quote Originally Posted by wayninja View Post
This is all moot since Eli is coming to Denver.

It won't save us, but that's what is going to happen.
If we sign Eli, kill me. \

No. It isn't going to happen. :coffee:

I don't know where the absurd speculation about Eli leaving NY is coming from, but they just got rid of Ben McAdoo because he wanted to get rid of Eli. The press and media and fan outrage was over the top, especially in NY. So, the first thing the new Giants GM says is "We'll likely 'keep moving' with Eli Manning (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000899852/article/giants-gm-well-likely-keep-moving-with-eli-manning)."

There is zero chance they will get rid of Eli. The fans practically staged a revolt when McAdoo tried it. It's much easier to keep him around for the rest of his career, draft Josh Rosen, and then when Rosen is ready to come in and start, sometime late in the season, they move Eli out gently. They don't bench him for some scrub.

The Broncos reportedly aren't interested in Eli anyway. Plan-A Cousins. Plan-B Draft pick plus a lower priced veteran like Tyrod Taylor or maybe Teddy Bridgewater.

Northman
01-14-2018, 06:38 PM
It is about what a players salary officially counts AGAINST THE CAP. I understand Brady is paid whatever, but his current salary is the 17th highest among QBs. The Pats have a major advantage in more ways than one.

His salary is that way because he chose to restructure, he had the luxury because he had already achieved so much financially and career wise. I understand the cap issues, i do. But you either learn to make room, restructure, or you keep the QB's we have and hope for the best. Just be ready for many years without playoff appearances and lack of SB appearances because using cheap and average QB's wont get you to the promised land very often.

Cugel
01-14-2018, 06:39 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
Dont kid yourself man, Brady got paid a long time ago much like Elway did before he restructured down the road. All young QB's take the money early because their futures are never guaranteed health wise. Flacco and Luck are not HOF'rs either (at least yet) so i wouldnt use them as great examples of the point you are trying to make. Bmore was incredibly stupid to pay Flacco all the money they did no question about it. Brady is a horrible example because they guy got paid a long time ago and had the luxury to restructure his contract long after the fact. Any other QB not getting paid big contracts are sitting at home come playoff time. I dont think you are sitting in the real world when dealing with the most important position in football.

Giselle is also worth around $360m (https://www.aol.com/article/finance/2017/02/06/heres-how-much-tom-brady-and-gisele-bundchen-are-worth/21708210/)so it's not like he can really use the money anyway. He's got over $180m net worth in his own right. So, no he's not too concerned about salary, except that he wants to be paid something appropriate for his worth.

You cannot compare Brady with anybody else in football.

Baltimore did the same stupid thing with Joe Flacco, that Denver did with Von Miller -- allow them to hit FA right after winning the SB. In Flacco's case that resulted in him negotiating a maximum deal in 2014 right after he had his career season.

In Von's case Elway failed to lock him up BEFORE the season, and then was surprised when Von became worth more than $18m a year and he had to pay market rates or lose his SB MVP.

underrated29
01-14-2018, 08:17 PM
Here is what I know.

All 3 of our sb wins we have had a top 10 qb. Player and pay.

Freyaka
01-15-2018, 09:50 AM
Cousins has sure made a difference for the Redskins win loss records.

Your right he has, because without Cousin's they likely don't win more than 3 games...

Cugel
01-15-2018, 01:47 PM
All*we need is a productive QB that has a relatively small salary that does not totally bankrupt the franchise and makes it possible to sign some key free agents. You know, like the Pats.

Cause we can see what these gigantic QB salaries have done to certain franchises. Like Luck. Everyone blames them for NOT putting a team around him. Want to know why? Not that hard to figure out.

No, it's not. It's because they suck. They have sucked at finding FA talent and proper drafting for a very long time.

After all, their OL was never great even under Manning, which probably contributed to his neck injuries.

Would not a better idea have been to emphasize getting the best 5 OL in football, and building around Luck rather than letting him get clobbered year in and year out and think "he can make up for our crappy OL"? You see the quality on that roster hasn't improved in years when he went down.

They were 3-13 or something the year Peyton was hurt, and the same record without Luck this year. Trash to trash, year after year.

Cugel
01-15-2018, 01:49 PM
Your right he has, because without Cousin's they likely don't win more than 3 games...

That's why I always assumed there's no way they could possibly let him go, no matter what his salary demands were. It would almost certainly lead to the coach and GM getting fired after a couple more terrible seasons. If they won 7 games with Cousins, how many would they win under Baker Mayfield or Josh Allen or some other rookie?

Slick
01-15-2018, 04:47 PM
If Kirk Cousins is really a good QB or a "franchise" QB, why have the Redskins not negotiated a long term deal for him? I always got the feeling that they didn't want to give him a Joe Flacco or Matt Stafford type of deal. It was like they were scared to commit big money to him long term.

We're so down on the QB situation in Denver that I think we're putting Cousins on a pedestal that he might not deserve to be on.

Freyaka
01-15-2018, 05:26 PM
If Kirk Cousins is really a good QB or a "franchise" QB, why have the Redskins not negotiated a long term deal for him? I always got the feeling that they didn't want to give him a Joe Flacco or Matt Stafford type of deal. It was like they were scared to commit big money to him long term.

We're so down on the QB situation in Denver that I think we're putting Cousins on a pedestal that he might not deserve to be on.

Why did the Redskins sign every FA that hit the market for awhile such as Haynsworth? Their owner and management are idiotic... When dealing with the Redskins, the best course of action is always do the opposite of what they do.

dogfish
01-15-2018, 05:40 PM
Plenty of evidence that paying QBs top dollar does NOT translate into championships.



how'd it work out for us the last time we gave a free agent QB a monster payday?

dogfish
01-15-2018, 06:18 PM
If Kirk Cousins is really a good QB or a "franchise" QB, why have the Redskins not negotiated a long term deal for him? I always got the feeling that they didn't want to give him a Joe Flacco or Matt Stafford type of deal. It was like they were scared to commit big money to him long term.

We're so down on the QB situation in Denver that I think we're putting Cousins on a pedestal that he might not deserve to be on.

this is pretty much where i've been. . . thinking that cousins isn't a top ten type of QB, that he's more in that 12-15 range, and that he hasn't been able to elevate his team. . . however, when i took a closer look at the numbers, i think that's selling him a bit short. . .

he has been a starter for three years, and he finished in the top 10 in passing yards all three of them (7th, 3rd, 10th). . . he also finished in the top ten in yards per attempt all three years, and finished top ten for completion percentage all three as well (including being 1st in 2015). . . he was 7th in TD passes this year, and 12th and 13th the previous two years. . . TD-to-turnover ratio is the only area where he hasn't put up high end production, and he's still been rated in the top half of the league in that metric as well, despite not having much talent to work with in the receiving corps. . . pierre garcon (who is solid but certainly nothing special) was their leading receiver the past two years, and jamison crowder was their top guy this year with a measly 66 catches for 789 yards and 3 TDs. . . this year, he lost his offensive coordinator and his two best receivers, and still managed to be very productive. . . IMO, he's proven that he can play at a high level regardless of circumstances-- i think he belongs right beside the likes of philip rivers and matt ryan in the QB rankings, and that is good enough. . .

when considering team success, i didn't realize just how bad washington's defense has been. . . this year they were 21st in total defense and 27th in points per game. . . 2016 they were 28th in total D and 19th in PPG. . . 2015 they were 28th in total D, 16th in PPG. . . our defense should be better than that even if we do lose aqib. . .


i still don't think he's likely to take us to a super bowl. . . but it's not like i'm counting on baker mayfield or josh allen to get us there, either. . . knight's not wrong that a top price QB makes your roster composition tougher due to salary constraints, but that will ultimately rear its head with a draft and develop guy as well-- if they work out, you have to pay them. . . if we were going to win with the No Fly Zone while we had a QB on his rookie deal, paxton would have had to be the guy. . . that window of utter defensive dominance has passed, though, and we need to find a QB if we want to get back to being competitive on a year-to-year basis. . . i absolutely think cousins is good enough to be that guy. . .

for me, the real question is the cost. . . and a lot of that comes down to what kirk wants. . . he's already made a lot of money, and he seems like an extremely competitive guy-- is he simply looking to land the contract with the biggest number, or is he also taking the situation into account? and how badly does he want out of washington? i don't see any way you justify paying him 30+ million / year, but i think you have to seriously consider it if you could get him in the 25-27 range. . . personally, i still think drafting and developing is ultimately the best choice, but we're not going to have a chance to get darnold or rosen-- and we haven't exactly crushed it drafting quarterbacks. . . getting a look at mayfield and allen at the senior bowl will be big. . . it's gonna be a real interesting off-season, for sure. . .

Poet
01-15-2018, 06:34 PM
If Kirk Cousins is really a good QB or a "franchise" QB, why have the Redskins not negotiated a long term deal for him? I always got the feeling that they didn't want to give him a Joe Flacco or Matt Stafford type of deal. It was like they were scared to commit big money to him long term.

We're so down on the QB situation in Denver that I think we're putting Cousins on a pedestal that he might not deserve to be on.

They are one of the worst franchises in the league. Last year their owner and GM referred to him by an incorrect first name because they were pissed he didn't take a bad contractual long term offer. It's the same franchise that consistently makes unprofitable trades and drafts, and let a top flight offense walk away even though they could have paid them. If Cousins was playing for a real franchise, I think he would have been locked up already; if he was not locked up then I would find that argument more persausive.

But you're also right in a big way - this is not a top five guy. Cousins is not going to go out there and put forth a MVP candidacy. But, he is on a Matt Ryan level, and you can win SB's with that.

If someone thinks he's going to be a consistently elite player, they're wrong, imo. But KC is at this point in his career better than numerous first round QB picks that we deemed to have panned out (Mariota and Winston come to mind).

Just my thoughts.

Ground Control
01-15-2018, 09:53 PM
this is pretty much where i've been. . . thinking that cousins isn't a top ten type of QB, that he's more in that 12-15 range, and that he hasn't been able to elevate his team. . . however, when i took a closer look at the numbers, i think that's selling him a bit short. . .

he has been a starter for three years, and he finished in the top 10 in passing yards all three of them (7th, 3rd, 10th). . . he also finished in the top ten in yards per attempt all three years, and finished top ten for completion percentage all three as well (including being 1st in 2015). . . he was 7th in TD passes this year, and 12th and 13th the previous two years. . . TD-to-turnover ratio is the only area where he hasn't put up high end production, and he's still been rated in the top half of the league in that metric as well, despite not having much talent to work with in the receiving corps. . . pierre garcon (who is solid but certainly nothing special) was their leading receiver the past two years, and jamison crowder was their top guy this year with a measly 66 catches for 789 yards and 3 TDs. . . this year, he lost his offensive coordinator and his two best receivers, and still managed to be very productive. . . IMO, he's proven that he can play at a high level regardless of circumstances-- i think he belongs right beside the likes of philip rivers and matt ryan in the QB rankings, and that is good enough. . .

when considering team success, i didn't realize just how bad washington's defense has been. . . this year they were 21st in total defense and 27th in points per game. . . 2016 they were 28th in total D and 19th in PPG. . . 2015 they were 28th in total D, 16th in PPG. . . our defense should be better than that even if we do lose aqib. . .


i still don't think he's likely to take us to a super bowl. . . but it's not like i'm counting on baker mayfield or josh allen to get us there, either. . . knight's not wrong that a top price QB makes your roster composition tougher due to salary constraints, but that will ultimately rear its head with a draft and develop guy as well-- if they work out, you have to pay them. . . if we were going to win with the No Fly Zone while we had a QB on his rookie deal, paxton would have had to be the guy. . . that window of utter defensive dominance has passed, though, and we need to find a QB if we want to get back to being competitive on a year-to-year basis. . . i absolutely think cousins is good enough to be that guy. . .

for me, the real question is the cost. . . and a lot of that comes down to what kirk wants. . . he's already made a lot of money, and he seems like an extremely competitive guy-- is he simply looking to land the contract with the biggest number, or is he also taking the situation into account? and how badly does he want out of washington? i don't see any way you justify paying him 30+ million / year, but i think you have to seriously consider it if you could get him in the 25-27 range. . . personally, i still think drafting and developing is ultimately the best choice, but we're not going to have a chance to get darnold or rosen-- and we haven't exactly crushed it drafting quarterbacks. . . getting a look at mayfield and allen at the senior bowl will be big. . . it's gonna be a real interesting off-season, for sure. . .

The only thing I disagree on is that Cousins can't take us to the SB. It won't happen the first few times he leads us to the playoffs...but it can happen. The only thing he lacks is a championship front office and vision, and playoff experience. We have that in our FO and can give him the latter. Even if it our front office/ Elway has gone astray - in a big way - when looking for the balance between quality QB and budget (repeat, a big way). I'm far from sure that we can land KC, especially since he's open to the Jets and the Browns...and the Browns have absolutely ridiculous draft and financial capital to build nothing short of an empire around him, if he goes that way. Elway can definitely make a team that will make the playoffs out of next year's draft with Cousins at the helm, though. From there, it's just a matter of letting him learn from his failings in the post-season. He's got it; He just hasn't been given the chance to use it...or develop it to the next level.

Otherwise, hell yep to everything you said. The Browns might just get him though. He said he's open to it and although I can't imagine anyone choosing to live in Cleveland over Denver (sheer insanity, IMO), they have a mighty empire-in-waiting. 'Course that front office needs to grow up tons before it can build an empire out of shiney objects, with so far showing no clue how to use them. Still, it's tempting and Cousins (and his agent/ contacts/ friends/ etc.) probably know waaaaay more than I do about such things.

Draft is good though. Mayfield seems like the kind of guy I can enjoy watching grow. It's up to Elway and we, of the BN, to be OK with the pains associated with franchise-level growth, though.

Cugel
01-15-2018, 11:53 PM
If Kirk Cousins is really a good QB or a "franchise" QB, why have the Redskins not negotiated a long term deal for him? I always got the feeling that they didn't want to give him a Joe Flacco or Matt Stafford type of deal. It was like they were scared to commit big money to him long term.

We're so down on the QB situation in Denver that I think we're putting Cousins on a pedestal that he might not deserve to be on.

The answer is "because they are cheap and stupid." Same answer to the question: "Why did Elway decide not to lock up Von Miller BEFORE the 2015 season, when (he later publicly stated) he would have taken a $16m a year contract. HE wound up SB MVP and hit UFA with maximum leverage. The Broncos are fortunate he decided to sign their contract offer at $18m a year, ending a possibly confrontational negotiation that would have soured relations between team and Von.

The Redskins consistently undervalued Cousins. That's not the only screwup they made. Lots of teams have been caught flat-footed for some reason by the increases in market conditions and are trying to undervalue players. Players are fighting back. Cousins is an example of a player making use of his leverage in contract negotiations to secure maximum pay. And the Redskins failure to sign him to a long-term deal is just due to stupidity.

They offered him $16m a year, which is well below market value. He stated publicly he would have signed for $19m a year, but they never offered this. Then they Franchised him for the 2nd time.

Then GM Allen released a public statement throwing all the blame on Cousins and stating (falsely) that the team had offered him the highest QB compensation in the league, but insinuating that he was too greedy. This was a cover-your-ass attempt by Allen which immediately backfired amid widespread fan criticism and media ridicule. Plus, it alienated Cousins.

He signed the 2nd franchise tender, had another good season, and here we are.

Now they will either franchise him at $34.6m or else sign him to a long term deal based on his MARKET value (widely anticipated to be around $30m a year or more). He has insisted that he will want to see what the market rate will be.

I don't see however, why he has to actually hit FA to find that out. His agent could receive indirect indications through intermediaries to determine what his real value is likely to be, and then he could demand the Redskins offer him that or he won't sign with them long term.

He could also decide he wants out of Washington, but no public statement of his has indicated that he would be opposed to re-signing. They disrespected him, but that only backfired on them and led to him getting a lot more money. So he shouldn't be too mad at them.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-16-2018, 11:37 AM
I just read an article in the Denver Post. It made several points that somewhat clear up some misconceptions here:

ES was also amongst the top ten in drop rate last year. ES carries a bigger cap # than DT this year. ES is 2 years older than DT.

It seems to be pretty clear to me who they should drop. DT is a better player and it’s not close.

Rick
01-16-2018, 11:42 AM
Surprising that ES would be the 1 high on the drops list, he always had hands of glue before.

Krugan
01-16-2018, 11:47 AM
Without watching EVERY DROP, stats are pretty bland. Drops count if the player touches the ball even with his finger tips, if i recall.

That being said, ES tries to catch everything no matter how badly thrown, so with the accuracy this group of QBS had, there is no doubt this years numbers were badly inflated.

Of course, i didnt watch much of this year, and when i did it was lowlights at best, so im just assuming that maybe the numbers, at least this and last year, are inflated due to crap arms.

Freyaka
01-16-2018, 11:58 AM
I just read an article in the Denver Post. It made several points that somewhat clear up some misconceptions here:

ES was also amongst the top ten in drop rate last year. ES carries a bigger cap # than DT this year. ES is 2 years older than DT.

It seems to be pretty clear to me who they should drop. DT is a better player and it’s not close.

People want DT gone and I get why, but Sanders sucked last year, bad QB or no bad QB, injuries or no, he had a terrible year.

The key thing with cutting Sanders, if we designate him post june 1 on the cut list he'll save us over $8 million with like $2 mil dead cap. It will cost us a ton in dead cap to cut DT, and won't save us what cutting Sanders does.

Manny's days are numbered.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-16-2018, 01:07 PM
Surprising that ES would be the 1 high on the drops list, he always had hands of glue before.

That’s the perception, but statistically DT has always caught more of his targets and had a higher YPC average, against tougher coverage

dogfish
01-16-2018, 04:13 PM
i think it's likely that DT is willing to restructure. . . does he really want to play out his last seasons somewhere else over a couple million? his agent is probably doing some discreet asking around right now to see what he could get elsewhere if we do cut him loose. . .

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
01-16-2018, 04:36 PM
i think it's likely that DT is willing to restructure. . . does he really want to play out his last seasons somewhere else over a couple million? his agent is probably doing some discreet asking around right now to see what he could get elsewhere if we do cut him loose. . .

Someone will definitely pay him if he gets cut loose. He’s still a top ten guy

Cugel
01-19-2018, 08:48 PM
knight's not wrong that a top price QB makes your roster composition tougher due to salary constraints, but that will ultimately rear its head with a draft and develop guy as well-- if they work out, you have to pay them. . . if we were going to win with the No Fly Zone while we had a QB on his rookie deal, paxton would have had to be the guy. . . that window of utter defensive dominance has passed, though, and we need to find a QB if we want to get back to being competitive on a year-to-year basis. . . i absolutely think cousins is good enough to be that guy. . .

It is actually easier to pay 1 guy $22 or $23m than to pay 11 guys and keep them all on the roster. To do that means you have properly identified every guy you want to keep and lock them up a year early, before they enter their last contract year so they never hit FA and get that ginormous salary.

Keeping a bunch of key defenders is too expensive: note the Broncos defensive roster:

Von Miller $18m
Talib $12m
Wolfe $10.75m
Harris $10.3m
Roby $8.5

That is why they are trading or releasing Talib this off-season. You can't pay 3 CBs $31m a year without serious sacrifices elsewhere.

For the last 2 years the Broncos have tried to get by with cheap QBs. Trevor cost them $750k, and Paxton and Osweiler got even less (Osweiler got $16m from the Browns, but only league minimum from the Broncos).

Well, we all saw how well that worked out! :coffee:

Cugel
01-19-2018, 08:50 PM
People want DT gone and I get why, but Sanders sucked last year, bad QB or no bad QB, injuries or no, he had a terrible year.

The key thing with cutting Sanders, if we designate him post june 1 on the cut list he'll save us over $8 million with like $2 mil dead cap. It will cost us a ton in dead cap to cut DT, and won't save us what cutting Sanders does.

Manny's days are numbered.

Except that behind DT and Sanders there is exactly nothing. Maybe Tom Brady can get by with scrubs for WRs but the Broncos need real talent. And without those two, who is their starter?

Cody Latimer? THAT'S really going to be just swell! :coffee: (I had a lot of coffee today).

Poet
01-19-2018, 09:27 PM
It is actually easier to pay 1 guy $22 or $23m than to pay 11 guys and keep them all on the roster. To do that means you have properly identified every guy you want to keep and lock them up a year early, before they enter their last contract year so they never hit FA and get that ginormous salary.

Keeping a bunch of key defenders is too expensive: note the Broncos defensive roster:

Von Miller $18m
Talib $12m
Wolfe $10.75m
Harris $10.3m
Roby $8.5

That is why they are trading or releasing Talib this off-season. You can't pay 3 CBs $31m a year without serious sacrifices elsewhere.

For the last 2 years the Broncos have tried to get by with cheap QBs. Trevor cost them $750k, and Paxton and Osweiler got even less (Osweiler got $16m from the Browns, but only league minimum from the Broncos).

Well, we all saw how well that worked out! :coffee:

Talib right now is a high quality CB who would demand much more in FA than we're paying him.

Wolfe signed a good deal for both sides - sans his injury he would have made what Jackson made. He took a discount, if you recall.

Again, another CB vastly outperforming his contract, and one that's not close to being commensurate with his play.

Roby, again another CB who could make more. The money on defense isn't screwing the team. We had enough cap space to sign Whitworth or Campbell. We didn't.

You don't have to have cap space ala the Browns to have a workable roster.

Hawgdriver
01-20-2018, 12:22 AM
I wish we had Whitworth.*









*if we had a competent QB.

topscribe
01-24-2018, 01:48 PM
:coffee: (I had a lot of coffee today).
Stay close to the restroom . . .

LawDog
01-24-2018, 05:07 PM
The answer is "because they are cheap and stupid." Same answer to the question: "Why did Elway decide not to lock up Von Miller BEFORE the 2015 season, when (he later publicly stated) he would have taken a $16m a year contract. HE wound up SB MVP and hit UFA with maximum leverage. The Broncos are fortunate he decided to sign their contract offer at $18m a year, ending a possibly confrontational negotiation that would have soured relations between team and Von.

The Redskins consistently undervalued Cousins. That's not the only screwup they made. Lots of teams have been caught flat-footed for some reason by the increases in market conditions and are trying to undervalue players. Players are fighting back. Cousins is an example of a player making use of his leverage in contract negotiations to secure maximum pay. And the Redskins failure to sign him to a long-term deal is just due to stupidity.

They offered him $16m a year, which is well below market value. He stated publicly he would have signed for $19m a year, but they never offered this. Then they Franchised him for the 2nd time.

Then GM Allen released a public statement throwing all the blame on Cousins and stating (falsely) that the team had offered him the highest QB compensation in the league, but insinuating that he was too greedy. This was a cover-your-ass attempt by Allen which immediately backfired amid widespread fan criticism and media ridicule. Plus, it alienated Cousins.

He signed the 2nd franchise tender, had another good season, and here we are.

Now they will either franchise him at $34.6m or else sign him to a long term deal based on his MARKET value (widely anticipated to be around $30m a year or more). He has insisted that he will want to see what the market rate will be.

I don't see however, why he has to actually hit FA to find that out. His agent could receive indirect indications through intermediaries to determine what his real value is likely to be, and then he could demand the Redskins offer him that or he won't sign with them long term.

He could also decide he wants out of Washington, but no public statement of his has indicated that he would be opposed to re-signing. They disrespected him, but that only backfired on them and led to him getting a lot more money. So he shouldn't be too mad at them.

Stafford's new contract hits next season averages to $27M per year which is currently the league's top salary. I don't see Cousins getting anywhere near $30M per year. This is really just silliness that I think began with the number it would take Washington to franchise him for a 3rd straight year of $34M. But that has nothing to do with market value.

Krugan
01-26-2018, 05:43 PM
The more i think about making a huge push for cousins, the less i feel good about it.

I just dont see what everyone else sees, im not impressed nor am I even remotely confident that this guy will be anything more than what he is with a big price tag. Great QBs elevate the players around them, so far i havent seen Cousins be the guy who can pick his inept team up and take them on his back and make things happen.

I really hope denver doesnt throw 20-25 mil at this guy only to find out he is Alex Smith with a lot more hype. Not saying Smith is awful, he just isnt the guy who elevates his team.

My 2 cents.

Cugel
01-26-2018, 07:02 PM
I really hope denver doesnt throw 20-25 mil at this guy only to find out he is Alex Smith with a lot more hype. Not saying Smith is awful, he just isnt the guy who elevates his team.

It will take a lot more than $20m to land Cousins. A lot closer to $30m than $20m. Estimates range from $28-$30m per year, 4 year, $112-$120m contract, perhaps $70m guaranteed (although the guarantee is really anybody's guess). There would probably be a fifth year option at more than $30m of course.

Reportedly John Elway is all in on Cousins. Makes sense because the alternatives are as follows:

1. Draft Baker Mayfield or Josh Allen. Suck for 2 seasons with inexperienced QBs. They'd be lucky to win 6 games with either next season. Oh, and fire VJ in mid season after the team starts 1-5 or something.

2. Draft Mayfield or Allen, or possibly Sam Darnold, and sign a bridge QB. The most obvious ones who may be available are Alex Smith (via a trade with KC if they would consider that), AJ McCarron (also via trade), Teddy Bridgewater (if his knee checks out). The Vikings are likely to franchise Case Keenum so he's out.

3. Sign Kirk Cousins. Pay him a boatload of cash. Use their draft picks to shore up the feeble OL or else draft a real playmaker with the #5 pick.

Win the division.

I vote for what's behind door number #3. :coffee:

Cugel
01-26-2018, 07:07 PM
Talib right now is a high quality CB who would demand much more in FA than we're paying him.

Wolfe signed a good deal for both sides - sans his injury he would have made what Jackson made. He took a discount, if you recall.

Again, another CB vastly outperforming his contract, and one that's not close to being commensurate with his play.

Roby, again another CB who could make more. The money on defense isn't screwing the team. We had enough cap space to sign Whitworth or Campbell. We didn't.

You don't have to have cap space ala the Browns to have a workable roster.

I wasn't arguing they should get rid of all those players. Just Talib, and that's what is overwhelmingly likely to happen too. Talib himself mentioned this possibility in his season ending presser when he said he wasn't sure if he would be back "ask John Elway." And then he walked out of the room blowing off any further questions.

He knows he's not coming back. He doesn't care. He will get more money somewhere else.

Freyaka
01-30-2018, 09:49 PM
So, now that Alex Smith is getting traded to the Redskins, the writing is on the wall fellas. Like it or not, Captain Kirk is your new Broncos starting QB.

Freyaka
01-30-2018, 09:50 PM
11727

Poet
01-30-2018, 09:53 PM
Sick AF.

BroncoWave
01-30-2018, 09:55 PM
I'm starting to get too hype.

Northman
01-30-2018, 09:55 PM
I'm stoked!

Freyaka
01-30-2018, 09:58 PM
Sick AF.

Like, I'm actually legit hyped now. I didn't think we'd win this race, but now it's us vs the Jets and who willingly wants to be a Jet? Good god fellas, we're about to have a competent QB again.

AND we can draft Fitzpatrick or Barkley with pick 5! This team's going to be amazing again.

Timmy!
01-30-2018, 09:58 PM
Gimme Nelson at 5 and buckle up.

wayninja
01-30-2018, 10:00 PM
I'm starting to get too hype.

Time to start playing possum then.

BroncoWave
01-30-2018, 10:04 PM
Like, I'm actually legit hyped now. I didn't think we'd win this race, but now it's us vs the Jets and who willingly wants to be a Jet? Good god fellas, we're about to have a competent QB again.

AND we can draft Fitzpatrick or Barkley with pick 5! This team's going to be amazing again.

I read on Twitter tonight it's us vs the Jags?

VonDoom
01-30-2018, 10:09 PM
I don't think this necessarily means that we're getting Cousins, though it does clear out all of the potential tag situations that were being discussed. He's a straight up FA now. Jets should be in on him. What about the Cardinals? The Browns? It's not a slam dunk.

And I still say if we're shedding talent like Talib and Sanders to pay Cousins, that makes little sense. Rather have a rookie and a stop gap then bank everything on Cousins, but we shall see.

VonDoom
01-30-2018, 10:10 PM
Adam Schefter
‏Verified account @AdamSchefter
4m4 minutes ago

Kansas City is expected to receive a second-round pick from Washington for Alex Smith and possibly more, per source. But a second-round pick was the price as of this morning, before trade between KC and Washington finalized.


Adam Schefter
‏Verified account @AdamSchefter
11m11 minutes ago

QB Alex Smith and Washington now have reached an agreement on a new four-year contract extension, per sources. Smith, who had one year left on his contact, tied to Washington for next five seasons. Smith gets long-term deal from Washington that Cousins could not.

VonDoom
01-30-2018, 10:11 PM
Mary Kay Cabot
‏Verified account @MaryKayCabot
2m2 minutes ago

The #Browns tried to trade for #Chiefs QB Alex Smith, sources tell http://cleveland.com , but he's going to the #Redskins instead per @TerezPaylor

VonDoom
01-30-2018, 10:11 PM
Eric Galko
‏Verified account @OptimumScouting
16m16 minutes ago

How are the #Broncos going to sign Kirk Cousins?

I’m told theyll offer Cousins a lower-than-you’d-think average salary, but VERY HIGH guarantees (more than Derek Carr‘s).

Gives Cousins guaranteed money. But easier on Denver cap short-term.

Poet
01-30-2018, 10:17 PM
I wish the Browns got him. Damn. That would all but guarantee a successful drafting of the guy.

This is still great news, though!

VonDoom
01-30-2018, 10:22 PM
Adam Schefter
‏Verified account @AdamSchefter
3m3 minutes ago

One sidenote: Kansas City and Washington cannot officially complete the Alex Smith trade until the first day of the league year, March 14. But it is agreed to.

Chris Mortensen
‏Verified account @mortreport
2m2 minutes ago

Chris Mortensen Retweeted Adam Schefter

On the agreement in principle. Alex Smith will average $23.5 million per year in new money on the extension and $70 million in guarantees. Nobody will be able to review that contract for awhile because officially there is no contract.

Ian Rapoport
‏Verified account @RapSheet
1m1 minute ago

The #Chiefs traded QB Alex Smith to the #Redskins for a 2018 third-round pick and a player to be named tomorrow, sources say. Solid return, regardless of who the player is.

Freyaka
01-30-2018, 10:34 PM
So I started the hype, I hate to put a damper on the hype

@1010XLTyler
Saw Kirk Cousins on #SBLII radio row today. He walked past the @1010XL table and whispered “Duuuvaaal”

#Jaguars

Buff
01-30-2018, 10:44 PM
So I started the hype, I hate to put a damper on the hype

@1010XLTyler
Saw Kirk Cousins on #SBLII radio row today. He walked past the @1010XL table and whispered “Duuuvaaal”

#Jaguars

RapSheet says the Jags are planning on sticking with Bortles next year. Not that I put a ton of stock in his reporting, but he did say that.

Freyaka
01-30-2018, 10:46 PM
RapSheet says the Jags are planning on sticking with Bortles next year. Not that I put a ton of stock in his reporting, but he did say that.

Yea, we'll see. I think this is going to be a three horse race between us, the jags and the jets. We'll see in a few months how it pans out. It would be nice to have a QB we can all collectively agree on next season.

VonDoom
01-30-2018, 10:48 PM
Benjamin Allbright
‏Verified account @AllbrightNFL
4m4 minutes ago

Denver did call about Alex Smith, KC didnt want to trade Alex in the division...felt like they had better offers elsewhere.

Buff
01-30-2018, 11:01 PM
So Smith is getting $23 mil/yr and presumably Cousins wouldn't take a penny less than that -- we need to draft a QB.

Poet
01-30-2018, 11:02 PM
So Smith is getting $23 mil/yr and presumably Cousins wouldn't take a penny less than that -- we need to draft a QB.

A cap on positions would be nice of the league to implement. Qb's that are above average shouldn't have to take up that much of a team's cap.

VonDoom
01-30-2018, 11:07 PM
https://twitter.com/fieldyates/status/958549843244408833

So the Chiefs get a CB and a third rounder. Klis saying Talib and a second rounder probably wasn’t too far off, especially given that it would have been an intra division trade

Buff
01-30-2018, 11:07 PM
I'm trying to think of another team that has two players who make more than $20 million annually.

VonDoom
01-30-2018, 11:08 PM
So Smith is getting $23 mil/yr and presumably Cousins wouldn't take a penny less than that -- we need to draft a QB.

That’s been my argument against Cousins. Start over with a cheap rookie QB and fill other holes in FA

VonDoom
01-30-2018, 11:08 PM
I'm trying to think of another team that has two players who make more than $20 million annually.

I’ll check Over the Cap but I’m guessing no one right now

Buff
01-30-2018, 11:08 PM
That’s been my argument against Cousins. Start over with a cheap rookie QB and fill other holes in FA

I guess I was somewhat in denial on the actual numbers... I don't see how it's feasible with Von's contract.

tripp
01-30-2018, 11:10 PM
Wouldn't make sense for the Jags to get rid of Bortles imo. You've got a stellar defense that costs big $$ with average QB play that can get the job done. Basically the 2016 Denver Broncos.

VonDoom
01-30-2018, 11:13 PM
Wouldn't make sense for the Jags to get rid of Bortles imo. You've got a stellar defense that costs big $$ with average QB play that can get the job done. Basically the 2016 Denver Broncos.

We went 9-7 that year :D

VonDoom
01-30-2018, 11:14 PM
I'm trying to think of another team that has two players who make more than $20 million annually.

A quick check tells me that, ironically, KC would have had two 20 million cap hits with Smith and Justin Houston but obviously that’s changing now

Dolphins also close with Suh at 26 million and Tannehill at 19.8

tripp
01-30-2018, 11:14 PM
We went 9-7 that year :D

My bad, 2015* but you know what I mean!

Oh well, I see Cousins going to Jets anyway.

tripp
01-30-2018, 11:16 PM
KC going to go into a rebuild or do they think they can still win now with Mahomes?

If this kid is everything they think he is, I still don't think they're close to winning a Championship for atleast another 2 years, and by then I'm not sure whose around on that defense

Buff
01-30-2018, 11:32 PM
https://twitter.com/fieldyates/status/958549843244408833

So the Chiefs get a CB and a third rounder. Klis saying Talib and a second rounder probably wasn’t too far off, especially given that it would have been an intra division trade

...

https://twitter.com/KeFu11er/status/958551017121091584

...

EDIT -

https://twitter.com/KeFu11er/status/958567846459658245

Buff
01-31-2018, 12:03 AM
Couple of things... I believe Dog was the first to bring up Scot Mccloughan's name a while back as someone we should consult with in the front office... Well -

https://twitter.com/RonnieKRadio/status/958561574599340033

And Mccloughan's location is listed as Loveland, CO on his twitter bio.

Then - you have this commentary from Mccloughan on Cousins -


The more I think about it - the more the Kirk Cousins plan worries me.

My main concern is that we're overestimating the overall quality of the team and hoping for the quick fix/path of least resistance to get back to the Super Bowl. Should the defense revert to league average, and then we pay top dollar for a slightly above average QB - that kind of leaves us stuck in purgatory as an average team.

I also have Scot McCloughan in my head “He’s a good player,” McCloughan told Mike Pritchard and Cecil Lammey. “Is he special? I don’t see special."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2018/01/19/scot-mccloughan-on-redskins-quarterback-kirk-cousins-i-dont-see-special/?utm_term=.75b491b0e805

...

Which is all a long winded and super speculatory way of saying that we might be looking to hire Mccloughan, and if we do, does that indicate that we might not be so hot on Cousins given his recent comments?

dogfish
01-31-2018, 12:14 AM
RapSheet says the Jags are planning on sticking with Bortles next year. Not that I put a ton of stock in his reporting, but he did say that.

they're going to have to stick with him. . . his contract is guaranteed for injury, and he just had wrist surgery. . . unless he's healthy enough to pass a physical some time in march, they are stuck with him for the season. . .

dogfish
01-31-2018, 12:16 AM
Couple of things... I believe Dog was the first to bring up Scot Mccloughan's name a while back as someone we should consult with in the front office... Well -

https://twitter.com/RonnieKRadio/status/958561574599340033

And Mccloughan's location is listed as Loveland, CO on his twitter bio.

Then - you have this commentary from Mccloughan on Cousins -



...

Which is all a long winded and super speculatory way of saying that we might be looking to hire Mccloughan, and if we do, does that indicate that we might not be so hot on Cousins given his recent comments?

you know who scot mccloughan does like? baker mayfield. . .


The radio host listed off a few of the notable names (Josh Allen, Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Luke Falk), and then asked McCloughan directly, “You gotta pick one quarterback to lead your franchise, Scott, who’s it gonna be?”

Without missing a beat, McCloughan said Oklahoma quarterback Baker Mayfield. McCloughan had this to say about Mayfield.

“He reminds me of a shorter version of Brett Favre. Tough guy. He can throw it. And he’s very confident, and he’s not afraid whatsoever, whatsoever. He’s a battler. I know saying Brett Favre’s a big name, and I was around him for a while, but this guy’s got talent.

https://www.ninersnation.com/2017/10/18/16492682/scot-mccloughan-2018-nfl-draft-quarterback-franchise-baker-mayfield

MO is gonna be pissed!

ShaneFalco
01-31-2018, 12:19 AM
Chad Kelly > Cousins

SWAG COMING.

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/denver-broncos-quarterback-chad-kelly-decorates-a-ginger-bread-with-picture-id885804892

MOtorboat
01-31-2018, 12:53 AM
Couple of things... I believe Dog was the first to bring up Scot Mccloughan's name a while back as someone we should consult with in the front office... Well -

https://twitter.com/RonnieKRadio/status/958561574599340033

And Mccloughan's location is listed as Loveland, CO on his twitter bio.

Then - you have this commentary from Mccloughan on Cousins -



...

Which is all a long winded and super speculatory way of saying that we might be looking to hire Mccloughan, and if we do, does that indicate that we might not be so hot on Cousins given his recent comments?

He was born and raised in Loveland.

MOtorboat
01-31-2018, 12:55 AM
you know who scot mccloughan does like? baker mayfield. . .



https://www.ninersnation.com/2017/10/18/16492682/scot-mccloughan-2018-nfl-draft-quarterback-franchise-baker-mayfield

MO is gonna be pissed!

The guy who jettisoned Alex Smith for Colin Kaepernick and lucked into Russell Wilson after giving Matt Flynn 64 million bones?

Look, the guy can build a roster, but I'm not sure he's the greatest quarterback guy...that's all I'm saying.

Buff
01-31-2018, 01:02 AM
He was born and raised in Loveland.

Well there goes my big scoop.

dogfish
01-31-2018, 01:06 AM
The guy who jettisoned Alex Smith for Colin Kaepernick and lucked into Russell Wilson after giving Matt Flynn 64 million bones?

Look, the guy can build a roster, but I'm not sure he's the greatest quarterback guy...that's all I'm saying.

yea, i know. . . but i gotta maximize my window for giving you shit about mayfield-- plus it was relevant to the conversation. . .

seriously, i would love for us to add mccloughan-- he may not have an impeccable record on QBs, but neither does anyone else out there. . . scot does know how to build nasty, physical squads, and we could really use that around here. . . no matter who the QB is, you still gotta put talent around him. . . i love the idea of an ace personnel guy like scot M putting together a roster around a talented young QB under a reasonable contract for five years. . . sign me up for that deal right now!

:defense:

MOtorboat
01-31-2018, 01:09 AM
Well there goes my big scoop.

I feel like you should know this:

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site21/2010/0924/20100924_120610_davemccloughan.jpg

wayninja
01-31-2018, 01:29 AM
He was born and raised in Loveland.

Yes, but don't you find that a bit suspicious?

MOtorboat
01-31-2018, 01:31 AM
Yes, but don't you find that a bit suspicious?

Of course it is. Those Loveland people are weird.

Northman
01-31-2018, 06:00 AM
I don't think this necessarily means that we're getting Cousins, though it does clear out all of the potential tag situations that were being discussed. He's a straight up FA now. Jets should be in on him. What about the Cardinals? The Browns? It's not a slam dunk.

And I still say if we're shedding talent like Talib and Sanders to pay Cousins, that makes little sense. Rather have a rookie and a stop gap then bank everything on Cousins, but we shall see.

Dont feel bad VD, i said the same thing when Manning hit the market. I didnt think there would be a chance in hell we would land him but JE got it done. I have complete faith that Cousins will be a Bronco.

Northman
01-31-2018, 06:05 AM
KC going to go into a rebuild or do they think they can still win now with Mahomes?

If this kid is everything they think he is, I still don't think they're close to winning a Championship for atleast another 2 years, and by then I'm not sure whose around on that defense

They arent going to win a championship overnight but they do believe they have their QB of the future on the team. Mahomes brings more to the game than Smith did.

VonDoom
01-31-2018, 07:30 AM
Dont feel bad VD, i said the same thing when Manning hit the market. I didnt think there would be a chance in hell we would land him but JE got it done. I have complete faith that Cousins will be a Bronco.

You may be right, North. Manning felt different to me, maybe because I was all in on him. I'm less interested in Cousins, especially the more I think about it and what it would mean for the rest of the team. I was just responding to the idea that we were definitely getting Cousins - other teams will be going after him, especially when the route is a simple FA acquisition and not any trade scenario. Teams will just open up the checkbook now and we'll see who ends up giving him the best deal.

VonDoom
01-31-2018, 07:31 AM
They arent going to win a championship overnight but they do believe they have their QB of the future on the team. Mahomes brings more to the game than Smith did.

Mahomes looked good in limited action. Honestly, I hate to give KC credit, but they played this correctly. They wanted to go beyond what Alex Smith could bring them so they went all in on a QBOTF. Now they turned around and traded their expensive vet and picked up a bunch of good assets in the process. They did good here.

Freyaka
01-31-2018, 08:59 AM
RapSheet says the Jags are planning on sticking with Bortles next year. Not that I put a ton of stock in his reporting, but he did say that.

I was reading that the actually have no choice to go with him next year. His contract is guaranteed for injury only and he just had wrist surgery. Because of this, they are on the hook for him and have like $16 mil in cap.

It's looking like it's us vs the Jets still.

CoachChaz
01-31-2018, 09:14 AM
I was reading that the actually have no choice to go with him next year. His contract is guaranteed for injury only and he just had wrist surgery. Because of this, they are on the hook for him and have like $16 mil in cap.

It's looking like it's us vs the Jets still.

Closer to 20 mil in space, but the contract guarantees are correct. His 5th year at 19 mil is guaranteed with injury, so they'll have to get creative after this season. And they still dont have a great OL or any receivers. The team is basically the defense and Fournette.

Rick
01-31-2018, 09:31 AM
Sounds familiar.

VonDoom
01-31-2018, 10:29 AM
I was reading that the actually have no choice to go with him next year. His contract is guaranteed for injury only and he just had wrist surgery. Because of this, they are on the hook for him and have like $16 mil in cap.

It's looking like it's us vs the Jets still.

They picked up his fifth year option - guaranteed for injury - when they knew he’d need wrist surgery. What a strange move

tripp
01-31-2018, 10:45 AM
They arent going to win a championship overnight but they do believe they have their QB of the future on the team. Mahomes brings more to the game than Smith did.

True, I just look at window of opportunity. Clearly they felt that this is who Alex Smith is, a regular season hero and is crap in the playoffs. I just can't wrap my head around foregoing another 3+ years of SB contenders to now hoping that your QB of the future pans out to be what you hoped.

Freyaka
01-31-2018, 11:07 AM
They picked up his fifth year option - guaranteed for injury - when they knew he’d need wrist surgery. What a strange move

My brother (jags fan) is under the impression that it's a 3-4 week recovery time and he'll be ready to be cut prior to that injury guarantee mattering. He thinks they'll have around $60 million in cap space for 2018.

Freyaka
01-31-2018, 11:08 AM
Another potential dark horse in this race is Arizona, they don't have the cap space, but if they were to jettison Palmer and Fitz, they could be right there with us.

Going to be interesting watching this play out in March.

Buff
01-31-2018, 11:13 AM
Another potential dark horse in this race is Arizona, they don't have the cap space, but if they were to jettison Palmer and Fitz, they could be right there with us.

Going to be interesting watching this play out in March.

Palmer retired. They ain't jettisoning their sure fire HOF'er face of the franchise.

Freyaka
01-31-2018, 11:17 AM
Palmer retired. They ain't jettisoning their sure fire HOF'er face of the franchise.

Ok, well I missed that info. Even if they don't jettison Fitz, Palmer retiring leaves them with more than enough cash assuming that the cap goes up by $15M which it seems to do every year.

CoachChaz
01-31-2018, 11:49 AM
My brother (jags fan) is under the impression that it's a 3-4 week recovery time and he'll be ready to be cut prior to that injury guarantee mattering. He thinks they'll have around $60 million in cap space for 2018.

Not sure how they plan to get to 60 mil. Bortles 19 mil is guaranteed if he cant pass a physical in March. The wrist surgery cuts that pretty close. Even if they were able to cut him, the total is only 35 mil. they could save another 10 if they released Malik, but I doubt they go that route. So, in the end, they'll have less space than we will and will still need to improve the OL and find quality WR's.

That being said...Jax is not far from Cousins wife's family in GA.

wayninja
01-31-2018, 11:49 AM
My brother (jags fan) is under the impression that it's a 3-4 week recovery time and he'll be ready to be cut prior to that injury guarantee mattering. He thinks they'll have around $60 million in cap space for 2018.

Weird to want a player to get healthy so he can be safely cut. Feels like a conflict of interests/player safety issue to me.

tripp
01-31-2018, 11:53 AM
Not sure how they plan to get to 60 mil. Bortles 19 mil is guaranteed if he cant pass a physical in March. The wrist surgery cuts that pretty close. Even if they were able to cut him, the total is only 35 mil. they could save another 10 if they released Malik, but I doubt they go that route. So, in the end, they'll have less space than we will and will still need to improve the OL and find quality WR's.

That being said...Jax is not far from Cousins wife's family in GA.

This is a big assumption that Cousins would want to go to Jax.

I think they're insane to want to spend that much $$$ on a QB when the defense is literally what got them there (AFC C-ship obv). You don't need elite QB play with that defense. If you want something better than Bortles, you have to draft or find a cheap vet QB (**** knows who), but since there isn't.. you gotta stick with Bortles. Pay the defense!

MOtorboat
01-31-2018, 12:08 PM
This is a big assumption that Cousins would want to go to Jax.

I think they're insane to want to spend that much $$$ on a QB when the defense is literally what got them there (AFC C-ship obv). You don't need elite QB play with that defense. If you want something better than Bortles, you have to draft or find a cheap vet QB (**** knows who), but since there isn't.. you gotta stick with Bortles. Pay the defense!

You always need an elite quarterback.

tripp
01-31-2018, 12:12 PM
You always need an elite quarterback.

Is Joe Flacco elite? <3

MOtorboat
01-31-2018, 12:13 PM
Is Joe Flacco elite? <3

Does that mean Baltimore doesn't need an elite quarterback? You always need an elite quarterback.

tripp
01-31-2018, 12:17 PM
Does that mean Baltimore doesn't need an elite quarterback? You always need an elite quarterback.

I'm starting to value elite defenses over elite QB's, only because elite QB's are hard to come by. If this was Tom Brady hitting the open market I'd say ok, go for it Jax, go all in on Brady, but....

B-more did it twice in 2000, and 2013, Seattle did it in 2014, we did it in 2016, Jax damn near did it in 2018.

IMHO.

dogfish
01-31-2018, 12:18 PM
Is Joe Flacco elite? <3

of course not-- that's why they've only had one good year out of the last however many. . . you need an elite QB if you want to be a consistent contender. . .

tripp
01-31-2018, 12:20 PM
of course not-- that's why they've only had one good year out of the last however many. . . you need an elite QB if you want to be a consistent contender. . .

Again, I would agree if you had top 5 QB in the NFL, I'd go elite QB all day. But since that's so rare, and most teams do not have a luxury of that option, building an elite defense can stifle elite QB's, along with mediocre QB play.

dogfish
01-31-2018, 12:40 PM
rapaport says the jagwads are keeping bortles (https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/958445666455474176)

MOtorboat
01-31-2018, 12:42 PM
I'm starting to value elite defenses over elite QB's, only because elite QB's are hard to come by. If this was Tom Brady hitting the open market I'd say ok, go for it Jax, go all in on Brady, but....

B-more did it twice in 2000, and 2013, Seattle did it in 2014, we did it in 2016, Jax damn near did it in 2018.

IMHO.

You can have one-offs like that. I'd prefer trying to find that top quarterback so you're in the dance every year.

I have a hard time counting that 2013 Ravens team, mostly because Flacco threw 19 TDs to 0 INTs in the playoffs that season, 285 yards per game, 9 yards per attempt and had a rating of 117. He gave them out of his mind, elite quarterback play for those four crucial games.

So the outliers are 2000 Ravens, 2003 Buccaneers, 2013 Seahawks, 2015 Broncos. But everyone outside of that had a pretty elite quarterback, if not a quarterback who at least appeared to be elite for three or four games.

Give me the quarterback all day, every day.