Joseph under microscope as Broncos enter final week of disappointing season

[Denver Native (Carol)]

It is not 5-10 alone that is so troubling to Denver Broncos fans and members of the team’s football department.

It is that four Broncos' defeats have been by 21 points or more.

The Cleveland Browns have one such defeat.

Eight of the Broncos’ 10 losses have been by 10 points or more. Only the 0-15 Browns have more double-digit defeats with nine.

It’s the uncompetitive nature of so many Broncos losses that has likely disturbed general manager John Elway and team president Joe Ellis.

much more - http://www.9news.com/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/vance-joseph-denver-broncos-will-he-keep-his-job/502415989

[MasterShake]

The way they are losing is what is disturbing. Even the 4-12 season under McDaniels in 2010 I only really remember the Oakland loss as being ridiculous. There might have been others but it was more "normal" football scores in the losses of around 7-14 points. It's hard to tell how hard they are trying to win these last few games though, more or less feels like preseason right now. If they lose big at home to KC with Paxton starting I wouldn't necessarily be shocked, but I guess it could be an indictment on Vance Joseph and how hard they are playing for him. I remember Kubiaks last game and they went all out to stomp the Raiders in a "meaningless" game.

[MOtorboat]

I’m still baffled as to how Olivo is still employed by this franchise.

[Nomad]

I hope Elway does what's best for the BRONCOS.

[Nomad]

I read Hurricane Elway is going to make landfall next Monday. LoL

[MasterShake]

I read Hurricane Elway is going to make landfall next Monday. LoL

The local sports radio keeps harping about how Elway seems to be getting none of the blame for this because everyone is "too afraid" to criticize him. This is his first losing season since taking over and only 2 seasons removed from a Super Bowl. I am willing to give him a bit of time to clean up this mess. This offseason will be very telling.

[Nomad]

The local sports radio keeps harping about how Elway seems to be getting none of the blame for this because everyone is "too afraid" to criticize him. This is his first losing season since taking over and only 2 seasons removed from a Super Bowl. I am willing to give him a bit of time to clean up this mess. This offseason will be very telling.

This is what I was referring to....... http://www.9news.com/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/cousins-washington-lead-osweiler-denver-10-3-at-halftime/502149519

It's hard to tell if he's serious by keeping Joseph. I'm not big on getting rid of a HC after year, but Joseph looks and acts lost.

[Northman]

Joseph should be under a microscope, there are a varied amount of problems that are directly pointed at him. Sure, JE can take some of the blame for believing that a guy with absolutely no credentials should of taken over this team as HC but at the end of the day JE felt the need to take a chance and it failed. But i hope he has the smarts to cut the dead weight and make a smarter pick next year despite the rumors that Joseph will be returning.

[silkamilkamonico]

The local sports radio keeps harping about how Elway seems to be getting none of the blame for this because everyone is "too afraid" to criticize him. This is his first losing season since taking over and only 2 seasons removed from a Super Bowl. I am willing to give him a bit of time to clean up this mess. This offseason will be very telling.

Elway is getting plenty of criticism. The sports radio gurus like Clough are mistaking the the talk of VJ being so bad as somehow Elways escaping criticism, which isn't the case.

[Hawgdriver]

Sounds like a Klis piece from the title. Harmless, obvious, slightly sycophantic.

[MasterShake]

Elway is getting plenty of criticism. The sports radio gurus like Clough are mistaking the the talk of VJ being so bad as somehow Elways escaping criticism, which isn't the case.

Oh god, Clough is the worst. He keeps acting like he is the lone voice of reason and the only one who DARE question Elway when pretty much everyone rips his draft picks and some other decisions he made. Dude brought us Manning, 2 Super Bowl Appearances and 1 Super Bowl win. He gets a pass from me on this one as long as he makes some big moves soon.

[Nomad]

Oh god, Clough is the worst. He keeps acting like he is the lone voice of reason and the only one who DARE question Elway when pretty much everyone rips his draft picks and some other decisions he made. Dude brought us Manning, 2 Super Bowl Appearances and 1 Super Bowl win. He gets a pass from me on this one as long as he makes some big moves soon.

Do you think Joseph should get another year, or should Elway start over after next Sunday?

[turftoad]

Hindsight.
Seems Kyle Shanahan and Jimmy Garopolo are gone.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I’m shocked to see that Roby is the 3rd highest paid player on the roster behind Miller and Talib. He makes more per year than CHJ. I had no idea he made that much as a late 1st round pick.

[Nomad]

Hindsight.
Seems Kyle Shanahan and Jimmy Garopolo are gone.

You think Belichick would have dealt Jimmy G to Denver? I have my doubts. It seems those 2 have hit it off pretty well.

[Shazam!]

I don't know how you justify keeping him after the showings we have seen since Oct. And make no mistake, KC is winning on Sun.

[Nomad]

I would hope Denver can find some motivation against a division rival, this being the last game of the season, and at home. I will be very disappointed if Denver rolls over, and lets KC blow them out at home. I don't expect Denver to win, but hopefully they'll play with a little pride and give a good game to watch.

[MasterShake]

I would hope Denver can find some motivation against a division rival, this being the last game of the season, and at home. I will be very disappointed if Denver rolls over, and lets KC blow them out at home. I don't expect Denver to win, but hopefully they'll play with a little pride and give a good game to watch.

If they get blown out I don’t see how you don’t clean house. Losing is ok this ONE TIME but go down swinging for the coach if you respect him.

[Broncoknight30]

Two things Elway will regret and there is no way to get around this. Well, Elway won't "regret it" but we as fans will be grinding our teeth over these two regrettable decisions.

One, ALLOWING Wade Philips to walk out the door and I do not care what the excuses were. He deserved the money if that was the issue. He would have stayed if he was paid accordingly.

This from an article last February:

https://247sports.com/nfl/los-angeles-rams/Article/Contract-dispute-led-to-Wade-Phillips-leaving-Broncos-74925463
Phillips didn’t take the Rams’ job until he learned the Broncos weren’t bringing him back. Here are the events that led to Phillips departure: After his defensive unit was largely responsible for the Broncos winning Super Bowl 50, he asked general manager John Elway for a pay raise and an extension.

Elway gave most of the Broncos’ assistant coaches extensions and raises after their Super Bowl victory, but Phillips was asking to become the league’s highest-paid defensive coordinator by a substantial margin. It was Phillips’ right. The Broncos’ defense was the best in the league.

But it was also Elway’s right to balk. According to multiple sources, Elway gave Phillips an either-or option: An extension or raise, but not both. Phillips took the raise. Once the 2016 season ended and Phillips’ contract was set to expire, the Broncos quickly moved to the Joseph-Woods duo to replace him.



Two, not hiring Kyle Shanahan and taking a completely under qualified coach like VJ over him. Shanahan had a clear better track record as a successful coordinator. Unlike VJ whose only season as a coordinator garnered the Dolphins to be the 30th ranked defense in 2016. Under what logic does that make someone a hot prospect? How does that happen? He interviewed well? How does he get to be interviewed in the first place? The Rooney Rule? I guess so.

Shanahan has an obvious tie to the franchise and the thought that Elway steered away from Shanahan cause of some past illogical resentment to his father is bothersome. Especially when it is for what appears to be a YES MAN and that is what Elway wanted over a proven commodity.

[spikerman]

Elway has been enamored with Joseph for several years. He wanted Joseph as his DC before he hired Phillips when the Bengals wouldn’t let him go. He was definitely not a Rooney Rule interview.

[Valar Morghulis]

i hear you on the shanny thing - dude was even successful making the Browns offense look above average, his work with Griffin, Ryan, his time in Houston - all good examples of a hot prospect for a HC gig. Then there was VJ. or as i like to call him, the big vagina

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Here are the reasons that were made public as to why Shanahan was not hired as the HC.


So maybe we got a real good hint at one reason why Shanahan didn’t land the Broncos gig. He’s already acting like Josh McDaniels. At age 37, Shanahan wants to prove he’s the smartest man in every room, from team meetings to the sideline, declaring he will call plays for San Francisco and will serve as his own offensive coordinator. Ut-oh. That smells like trouble.

https://www.denverpost.com/2017/02/11/kiszla-john-elway-smart-to-pick-vance-joseph-kyle-shanahan-broncos-coach/

And there is this


Shanahan will have control of the active, 53-man roster, while Lynch will have control of the full 90-man roster, and free agency and the draft. Even then, though, decisions will come with a requirement of the approval of the other.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000784904/article/kyle-shanahan-to-control-niners-53man-roster

[Broncoknight30]

Here are the reasons that were made public as to why Shanahan was not hired as the HC.



https://www.denverpost.com/2017/02/11/kiszla-john-elway-smart-to-pick-vance-joseph-kyle-shanahan-broncos-coach/

And there is this



http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000784904/article/kyle-shanahan-to-control-niners-53man-roster

I have no real problem with that, and Shanahan is certainly not unique with those requirements. If you are going to have this opportunity, you don't want to look back with regrets etc.

Kyle Shanahan is NOT Mcdaniels. Mcdaniels has very good knowlege and all of that, but he is (at least he was here) totally ill prepared to be a headcoach and a leader of men.

The guy came in and kicked over the chairs and treated his staff etc with contempt. He came in with this "patriot way" shit that has seemingly not worked really anywhere. Well, except for where Tom Brady is a QB for a lesser price than Osweiler.

Shanahan it seems has a far better handle on how to treat his coaching staff. He is also his own person, unlike McDaniels who had to wear the hoodie sweat shirt and walk around twirlinf the whistle...all exactly like Belichick.


When I saw him doing that, that is when I sighed and rolled my eyes. Btw, for the record I had zero issue with him trading poopy pants. No issue at all.

[Northman]

Two things Elway will regret and there is no way to get around this. Well, Elway won't "regret it" but we as fans will be grinding our teeth over these two regrettable decisions.

One, ALLOWING Wade Philips to walk out the door and I do not care what the excuses were. He deserved the money if that was the issue. He would have stayed if he was paid accordingly.

This from an article last February:

https://247sports.com/nfl/los-angeles-rams/Article/Contract-dispute-led-to-Wade-Phillips-leaving-Broncos-74925463
Phillips didn’t take the Rams’ job until he learned the Broncos weren’t bringing him back. Here are the events that led to Phillips departure: After his defensive unit was largely responsible for the Broncos winning Super Bowl 50, he asked general manager John Elway for a pay raise and an extension.

Elway gave most of the Broncos’ assistant coaches extensions and raises after their Super Bowl victory, but Phillips was asking to become the league’s highest-paid defensive coordinator by a substantial margin. It was Phillips’ right. The Broncos’ defense was the best in the league.

But it was also Elway’s right to balk. According to multiple sources, Elway gave Phillips an either-or option: An extension or raise, but not both. Phillips took the raise. Once the 2016 season ended and Phillips’ contract was set to expire, the Broncos quickly moved to the Joseph-Woods duo to replace him.



Two, not hiring Kyle Shanahan and taking a completely under qualified coach like VJ over him. Shanahan had a clear better track record as a successful coordinator. Unlike VJ whose only season as a coordinator garnered the Dolphins to be the 30th ranked defense in 2016. Under what logic does that make someone a hot prospect? How does that happen? He interviewed well? How does he get to be interviewed in the first place? The Rooney Rule? I guess so.

Shanahan has an obvious tie to the franchise and the thought that Elway steered away from Shanahan cause of some past illogical resentment to his father is bothersome. Especially when it is for what appears to be a YES MAN and that is what Elway wanted over a proven commodity.

Yep, Elway screwed the pooch there. Wade deserved the raise and then some. It was a slap in the face that JE didnt pay the man his worth.

[dogfish]

Elway has been enamored with Joseph for several years. He wanted Joseph as his DC before he hired Phillips when the Bengals wouldn’t let him go. He was definitely not a Rooney Rule interview.

the VJ thing goes back to the kubiak connection from the houston days. . . i do think BK's absolutely right about wade, though-- that was just a massive blunder, and completely avoidable. . . and mini-shanny is certainly a better HC than mr. puzzled. . .

[NightTerror218]

Look at the streak 49ers arw on now. They finally got a QB and a young roster with talent. They are going to be on up aide now.

[topscribe]

I read Hurricane Elway is going to make landfall next Monday. LoL
Would be kind of touching to see Joe Ellis precede Elway into the room and exclaim,

"HEARRrrrrrrrrRSSsssssssss JOHNNY!"


(I might have dated myself there. Some of the young bucks here probably won't get that.)

[chazoe60]

I hope I'm wrong but I think there's very little chance that Joseph gets fired after one season.

[MOtorboat]

Yep, Elway screwed the pooch there. Wade deserved the raise and then some. It was a slap in the face that JE didnt pay the man his worth.

I will stand by my belief that, although it didn’t work here, you must let a head coach pick his assistant coaches. The mistake wasn’t Elway’s.

[Northman]

I will stand by my belief that, although it didn’t work here, you must let a head coach pick his assistant coaches. The mistake wasn’t Elway’s.

I think it was to a degree. I get what you are saying but (this is my opinion) you would have to be a complete moron (this includes joseph) not to keep a D cordinator who has had the kind of success he has especially with this team 2 years after a Championship. I do believe the John could of forced a young inexperienced HC to at least keep Wade for some stability if nothing else. So i disagree with you that JE didnt make a mistake there.

[Broncoknight30]

I will stand by my belief that, although it didn’t work here, you must let a head coach pick his assistant coaches. The mistake wasn’t Elway’s.

That is not necessarily the case. Mike Tomlin was hired under VERY SIMILAR situations with the Steelers.

They were one year removed from their SB win in 2005 when Cowher retired after the 2006 season.

Tomlin KEPT their legendary DC Lebeau. Keep in mind Tomlin's defensive philosophy differed from Lebeau and Tomlin was a defensive minded coach. He came out of the Dungy Tampa 2 back ground which is a 4-3 base with very little blitzing.

He went with what the Steelers did. Was that part of the deal when Tomlin was hired? I am betting he was told Lebeau was going nowhere when he was hired. Cant prove that.

Tony Dungy kept Tom Moore in Indy when he went there. Dungy was not exactly a pass happy coach in his previous years and I am sure that was something he had to except when he was hired there.

When Gruden was hired in Tampa, I am sure he was told that Monte Kiffin was not going anywhere.

Wade Philips had that sort of reputation. Well earned and he should have been kept here.

[MOtorboat]

That is not necessarily the case. Mike Tomlin was hired under VERY SIMILAR situations with the Steelers.

They were one year removed from their SB win in 2005 when Cowher retired after the 2006 season.

Tomlin KEPT their legendary DC Lebeau. Keep in mind Tomlin's defensive philosophy differed from Lebeau and Tomlin was a defensive minded coach. He came out of the Dungy Tampa 2 back ground which is a 4-3 base with very little blitzing.

He went with what the Steelers did. Was that part of the deal when Tomlin was hired? I am betting he was told Lebeau was going nowhere when he was hired. Cant prove that.

Tony Dungy kept Tom Moore in Indy when he went there. Dungy was not exactly a pass happy coach in his previous years and I am sure that was something he had to except when he was hired there.

When Gruden was hired in Tampa, I am sure he was told that Monte Kiffin was not going anywhere.

Wade Philips had that sort of reputation. Well earned and he should have been kept here.

He only should have been kept if that was the coach's choice. The staff should always be chosen by the coach.

And I think it's pertinent to this conversation to note that Wade Phillips has never stayed anywhere for more than four years and that was from 1981-85 in New Orleans. He's never had a job longer than three years since.

[topscribe]

I think it was to a degree. I get what you are saying but (this is my opinion) you would have to be a complete moron (this includes joseph) not to keep a D cordinator who has had the kind of success he has especially with this team 2 years after a Championship. I do believe the John could of forced a young inexperienced HC to at least keep Wade for some stability if nothing else. So i disagree with you that JE didnt make a mistake there.
Nope. Such a force would be a bad move. A head coach has to know he's the head coach.
Elway's mistake was VJ, IMO. The others were VJ's.

[BeefStew25]

I wish his last name started with a D so we could call him VD.

[BeefStew25]

I wish his last name started with a D so we could call him VD.

Like how we call Joe BJ.

[Davii]

Like how we call Joe BJ.

Oh, BS. See what I did there?

[JPPT1974]

Yeah as really just keep him another year. As really not all is his fault. Partly but not all.

[Shazam!]

Didnt Wade want to go with his son to the Rams?

[Northman]

Nope. Such a force would be a bad move. A head coach has to know he's the head coach.
Elway's mistake was VJ, IMO. The others were VJ's.

Disagree of course. As a GM you dont have to be an ass about it, Elway could of easily explained the reasons for keeping Wade without coming on like a douche. You say force, i say common sense. Both mean something entirely different.

[Broncoknight30]

Nope. Such a force would be a bad move. A head coach has to know he's the head coach.
Elway's mistake was VJ, IMO. The others were VJ's.

Not really. That is what we think. I mentioned Mike Tomlin, and Tony Dungy and Jon Gruden in Tampa. All of them "kept" their coordinators. In Tomlin's case he kept a coordinator that used a completely different philosophy that Tomlin coached. Now, that is rather telling, considering Tomlin was a defensive minded coach. It is kind of obvious that he was told during the hiring process that Lebeau was staying.

Also, in Dungy's case he had a real reputation for being a conservative coach. He kept Tom Moore with Peyton Manning. Now, was that fully his decision, or was that part of the deal when taking that job.

VJ did not have that type of cache like Bill Parcells. Not all coach hirings are all the same.

[UnderArmour]

Nope. Such a force would be a bad move. A head coach has to know he's the head coach.
Elway's mistake was VJ, IMO. The others were VJ's.

Issue I have with this situation is this: If Vance Joseph was given a chance to keep Wade, it shows his incompetence in letting the guy walk. Mike Tomlin had a similar set of circumstances when he got the Pittsburgh job where Dick LeBeau was coordinator for the defense, and of course Tomlin came from a defensive background. Rather than get rid of a longtime DC and father figure to many of the players to have his own guy at the helm, Tomlin kept LeBeau in place and picked his brain for several years until Butler was ready. If Vance Joseph was really that threatened by Wade's presence, it's just another sign that Vance was not ready to take on any kind of leadership role. Sure, he brought on former Chargers HC Mike McCoy who knew players and coaches from his time here as OC, but when the going got tough the first coach to be fired was McCoy. Presumably, Vance pulled the plug so that Elway wouldn't have someone to promote as the slide continued.

I still feel like Vance Joseph brings absolutely nothing to the table. He wasn't a good coordinator, players don't leave everything on the field for him, he doesn't know when (or how) to make tough decisions, and he just overall shows a complete incompetence. The players have shown more reaction to comments by Elway this year than by their head coach, and that's pretty telling. Nobody in this organization respects Vance Joseph as head coach of this football team, and really a large part of that was him refusing to fill his coaching staff with leaders. Guy is in over his head.

And while I would never root for this team to lose, I think the locker room is so fractured and players have all decided to play for themselves that the only way this team wins on Sunday is if Mahones just has complete rookie jitters and lobs it to Talib and Harris for plural pick 6s. The Vance Joseph era cannot come to an end quickly enough.

[Broncoknight30]

Didnt Wade want to go with his son to the Rams?

Money talks, bullshit walks.

[broncofaninfla]

Although I never pull for Denver to lose, I wouldn't mind seeing Pat Mahomes have a good enough game that the Chiefs cut Smith this offseason. I also would like this to be the last game VJ has the title of HC for Denver. Alex Smith would be a good addition as would Dave Toub for Head coach although my preference is Cowher first, Toub second at this point.

[Broncoknight30]

Although I never pull for Denver to lose, I wouldn't mind seeing Pat Mahomes have a good enough game that the Chiefs cut Smith this offseason. I also would like this to be the last game VJ has the title of HC for Denver. Alex Smith would be a good addition as would Dave Toub for Head coach although my preference is Cowher first, Toub second at this point.

No to Cowher. I know Dick Vermeil did it after a long hiatus, but there are always exceptions.

Last time he coached was 2006. Toub is interesting. Vrabel could be another one. I know he is a Pats guy and thoughts pf Mcdaniels along with a long list of Pats way failures, but he is the only one that actually played. Meaning, he may have a special dynamic that those others didn't

[Cugel]

I’m still baffled as to how Olivo is still employed by this franchise.

I was mystified too. Turns out nobody else on the staff has more experience at coaching special teams. A bad short-sighted decision that should be rectified at years' end. So, he's sticking around because nobody on the coaching staff can do the job.

Speculation has Olivo returning to coaching in college next year.

[Cugel]

Although I never pull for Denver to lose, I wouldn't mind seeing Pat Mahomes have a good enough game that the Chiefs cut Smith this offseason. I also would like this to be the last game VJ has the title of HC for Denver. Alex Smith would be a good addition as would Dave Toub for Head coach although my preference is Cowher first, Toub second at this point.

As I've pointed out numerous times, Alex Smith is done in KC. He's scheduled to earn $20m next year and they are already trying out Pat Mahomes. The KC fans want him gone last year. And if the Chefs lose in the playoffs again. . . and who expects them to win? then Smith can be cut with no negative blowback from the fans or KC media.

[Cugel]

Issue I have with this situation is this: If Vance Joseph was given a chance to keep Wade, it shows his incompetence in letting the guy walk.

Wade Phillips wanted to be the highest or close to the highest paid DC in the league. Elway did not want to pay him that much, and they wanted to keep Joe Woods who was a great candidate to become DC somewhere else if they kept Wade.

So, they cut Wade loose, and promoted Woods. That was all Elway. VJ probably didn't fight him on any of it.

It was partly a $ decision by Elway and partly a decision that they wanted to promote Joe Woods.

You can argue it didn't work out great, but that was Elway's thinking. This wasn't a move VJ had much control over.

[Broncoknight30]

Wade Phillips wanted to be the highest or close to the highest paid DC in the league. Elway did not want to pay him that much, and they wanted to keep Joe Woods who was a great candidate to become DC somewhere else if they kept Wade.

So, they cut Wade loose, and promoted Woods. That was all Elway. VJ probably didn't fight him on any of it.

It was partly a $ decision by Elway and partly a decision that they wanted to promote Joe Woods.

You can argue it didn't work out great, but that was Elway's thinking. This wasn't a move VJ had much control over.

He should have paid Wade. Also, if the Broncos did great this year, Joe woods would have been a hot coach and most likely would have been gone anyway.

I cannot help but think Elway was resentful towards the credit Philips was getting for 50.

I have read where Philips was not his original choice, and VJ was, but the Bengala would not let him go.

If all of that is true, then I do tend to think Elway was resentful towards the credit Philips was getting for 50.

That makes me tighten my jaws a little.

[Davii]

Money talks, bullshit walks.

To a guy that could easily retire and never work another day in his life... money is secondary to working with his son and living near his daughter.

[Cugel]

He should have paid Wade. Also, if the Broncos did great this year, Joe woods would have been a hot coach and most likely would have been gone anyway.

I cannot help but think Elway was resentful towards the credit Philips was getting for 50.

I have read where Philips was not his original choice, and VJ was, but the Bengala would not let him go.

If all of that is true, then I do tend to think Elway was resentful towards the credit Philips was getting for 50.

That makes me tighten my jaws a little.

That's nonsense. First of all, Elway didn't give a rip whether Wade Phillips got credit. He didn't want to pay the man. Period. It's easy for you to say "pay him!" but Elway wanted Joe Woods.

As for Woods being gone anyway, not with only 1 year experience as DC on a team with a SB caliber defense. After Buddy Ryan got a job coaching the Eagles in 1986, he was replaced as the Bears defensive coordinator by some dude named Vince Tobin. The Bears finished 14-2 that year but lost in the playoffs. Tobin did not get credit for building the '46 defense.

That made sense. He wouldn't be bringing HOF players Wilbur Marshall or Mike Singletary or Richard Dent or Dan Hampton with him. Same here. Woods wouldn't be bringing Von Miller or Aqib Talib along if someone hired him so how much is due to Wade and how much to the players?

The Broncos defense declined since 2015, largely because they lost talent: HOF DeMarcus Ware retired, Malik Jackson and Danny Trevathan left in FA, and TJ Ward wore down and was released. He was not an impact player this year with the Bucs who won't even put him on the field. None of those players was replaced by anyone close to as good. The Broncos didn't get any pass rush from the injured Shane Ray and Shaqil Barrett is just a guy.

This defense is just not as good. So, it's not just on losing Wade. That didn't help but mostly it's the loss of elite players that mattered.

[Valar Morghulis]

To a guy that could easily retire and never work another day in his life... money is secondary to working with his son and living near his daughter.

I would like to believe this was all there was to it - but i do think there was some of Wade's ego, clashing with John's ego and a belief that Woods would be able to do just as good a job.

[Broncos Mtnman]

Would be kind of touching to see Joe Ellis precede Elway into the room and exclaim,

"HEARRrrrrrrrrRSSsssssssss JOHNNY!"


(I might have dated myself there. Some of the young bucks here probably won't get that.)

I'm old enough to totally get it.

[Northman]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/017/204/CaptainAmerica1_zps8c295f96.JPG

[Joel]

Since half the fans were demanding Kubiaks head by the middle of last season, I can only assume Vance Josephs an elite coach: Josephs Broncos have lost more games than Kubiaks last squad won (and the season's not done.) Even though our only two wins in the past three months came when we dumbed down our offense into a "run first and second, pass as last resort, and hope the D can win a close one at the end" model for the sake of its poor quality linemen and green QBs—EXACTLY as Kubiak was condemned for doing the last two years (even when it won our first Lombardi since Elway retired.)

Remember when McCoys return was celebrated because his innovative versatile offense was light years ahead of Kubiaks simplistic, predictable and antiquated offense? Just three years ago Kubiak resurrected the Ravens moribund offense, and three years before that ran a Texans squad consistently and equally lethal on the ground AND through the air, despite NEITHER team having the mobile bootleg QBs on whom Kubiak's supposedly dependent. Just that fast, the NFL evolved so far beyond Kubiaks limited comprehension that only Mike McCoy sophistication could lead us to an elite 3-9 record. Then Musgrave took over to cheers for winning games the exact same way Kubiak was booed out of town for winning a SB.

Here's to 2017: The Year of Being Careful What You Wish for.

[Hawgdriver]

Wait, so if Kubiak/Dennison sucked, but Joseph/McCoy sucked harder--you wish for Kubiak/Dennison?

[MOtorboat]

Wait, so if Kubiak/Dennison sucked, but Joseph/McCoy sucked harder--you wish for Kubiak/Dennison?

Joel has an unhealthy man-crush, stalkerish obsession with Gary Kubiak. Nothing is ever Kubiak’s fault.

[Hawgdriver]

It's all about H-Town.

[Joel]

Wait, so if Kubiak/Dennison sucked, but Joseph/McCoy sucked harder--you wish for Kubiak/Dennison?
Kubiak/Dennison didn't suck. They were a consistently and highly successful combo with no less than three straight teams: The '95-'05 Broncos, the '06-'13 Texans and the '14 Ravens. The sole exception was the 2013 Texans, when Schaub had his final flameout and half the team went on IR. All Kubiak did after that was become only the second HC in half a century to win a SB his first season (Siefert doesn't count because he was promoted from OC of a defending champ dynasty, and Gruden doesn't count because all he did was dismantle an offensive playbook he WROTE.)

The Broncos OFFENSE sucked, especially the line that can't protect anyone >1 second and has failed to keep ANY starting RB on his feet more than half a season since 2011—and even then McGahee was so beat up after leading the league in yards AFTER CONTACT that he played only half of the next two seasons before retiring at 33.

I said a year ago that by the middle of the 2017 season we'd all have a new appreciation for Kubiak managing to take us to a SB with an immobile injured Manning behind a Swiss cheese line, then managing a winning season with what amounted to a rookie 7th round QB (much like the rookie 6th rounder who led the Texans to the franchise first playoff win after Schaub went on IR in Week 10 and Leinart joined him the following week.) From a winning season to a top five draft pick? Gimme Kubiback.

[Northman]

Joel has an unhealthy man-crush, stalkerish obsession with Gary Kubiak. Nothing is ever Kubiak’s fault.

Its quite funny seeing his obsession. Dude, has been gone from the boards for like ever only to try (and i do mean try) to gloat in hindsight. Its cute.

[Nomad]

Would be kind of touching to see Joe Ellis precede Elway into the room and exclaim,

"HEARRrrrrrrrrRSSsssssssss JOHNNY!"


(I might have dated myself there. Some of the young bucks here probably won't get that.)


I'm old enough to totally get it.

First thing to come to mind is Ed McMahon introducing Johnny Carson. I use to watch it as a kid, especially with my grandpa. Or, Jack Nicholsan in 'The Shining', which I first saw as a kid.

[spikerman]

Per Adam Schefter:

Broncos’ HC Vance Joseph faces increasingly longer odds at being retained and returning for his second season in Denver, league sources tell ESPN.

[BroncoWave]

Per Adam Schefter:

Broncos’ HC Vance Joseph faces increasingly longer odds at being retained and returning for his second season in Denver, league sources tell ESPN.

That's pretty huge coming fro Schefty. All the more reason to hope we lose today. Make the decision easy for Elway.

[VonDoom]

Local reports saying nothing has been decided yet on Joseph. But if Schefter is reporting it and there is even a question, they’re certainly thinking about it

[VonDoom]

https://twitter.com/greggabe/status/947562080361762817

https://twitter.com/greggabe/status/947563553015390208

[BroncoWave]

Who is Greg Gabriel?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Who is Greg Gabriel?

Exactly

[Northman]

He's a Bears scout guy. Think he might be taking a shot at John on behalf of Foxy? lol

[Davii]

He's a Bears scout guy. Think he might be taking a shot at John on behalf of Foxy? lol

Maybe. I doubt if John put together game plans, was responsible for players being prepared, decided who would return punts, etc though

[VonDoom]

Elway is certainly responsible for this roster, including drafting poorly. But Joseph is responsible for having the team ready every week. We’ve lost eight games by double digits and four by 20 or more. I don’t think it’s a good look to fire another coach but he’s done little to show that he’s any good

[dogfish]

he's been terrible, but they really didn't give him much to work with on offense. . . the team has consistently failed to be competitive, and if they don't think he can improve significantly, then it's probably best to cut the cord now. . . if they fire him after one year, though, they damn well better get the next hire right. . . i won't be shocked if top candidates aren't lining up for the position, because job security is not one of the perks it carries. . . ask john fox. . . :laugh:

[Davii]

Elway is certainly responsible for this roster, including drafting poorly. But Joseph is responsible for having the team ready every week. We’ve lost eight games by double digits and four by 20 or more. I don’t think it’s a good look to fire another coach but he’s done little to show that he’s any good

The roster has holes, QB and OL specifically, but this is a playoff quality (9-7 or 10-6) team with the right coaching. Maybe better, the defense was still top 5... I'm confident Elway will fix the line, I'm not as confident about QB unless we bring in a vet, but coaching is our biggest issue without a doubt.

[Rick]

This time can we have a guy who actually has experience succeeding at a coordinator position rather than taking a guy who sucked in his only attempt?

[Davii]

This time can we have a guy who actually has experience succeeding at a coordinator position rather than taking a guy who sucked in his only attempt?

Need to go get a veteran head coach IMO.

[VonDoom]

Need to go get a veteran head coach IMO.

I hear John Fox is available

[Davii]

I hear John Fox is available

I hear Kubiak is as well.

[Rick]

Need to go get a veteran head coach IMO.

I am fine with an up and coming but at-least show you have done it before.

No freaking guy that looked like a great position coach.

Get someone that at-least succeeded calling on 1 side of the ball, showed some imagination and skill.

[aberdien]

By all statistical appearances, VJ was not even an impressive position coach.

Just hire somebody with some history of success even if they're an up and comer.

[Rick]

I wouldn't mind Jim Schwartz as Woods has been a big step back as well.

Let Musgrave stay and put his take on the offense, and let Schwartz and Woods work together to get the defense back on form.

[slim]

Per Adam Schefter:

Broncos’ HC Vance Joseph faces increasingly longer odds at being retained and returning for his second season in Denver, league sources tell ESPN.

Thank God. Looks like Christmas came late this year.

[VonDoom]

Allbright reporting Joseph is out as well, fwiw

[Slick]

Allbright reporting Joseph is out as well, fwiw

I hope so.

[MOtorboat]

I hope so.

A Chicago and profootballweekly (yes that’s still a thing) is reporting it.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

A Chicago and profootballweekly (yes that’s still a thing) is reporting it.

They’re probably all quoting the same misinformed journalist

[nevcraw]

VJ stays unless elway has his guy locked up. Which seems doubtful at this point.

[topscribe]

VJ stays unless elway has his guy locked up. Which seems doubtful at this point.
I'm not sure that would necessarily be a criterion. Several good names seem to be popping up as candidates . . .

[MOtorboat]

They’re probably all quoting the same misinformed journalist

He would be that journalist. Although, I will note, because this is often misunderstood, he’s echoing someone’s information. It’s unlikely he’s making it up out of thin air. That rarely happens, despite what some believe.

For all of Klis’ faults, I’ll trust his info. Schefter too, who said the odds were long not that he would be fired (as some have said).

FTR, I think he needs to go.

[nevcraw]

I'm not sure that would necessarily be a criterion. Several good names seem to be popping up as candidates . . .
Elway won’t dump VJ unless he’s sure he can get the person he wants. It would be silly and foolish to move on without a clear choice. So I yhink That’s why he stays. No solid option. I would Have loved to see Matt Patricia in Denver.

[Nomad]

VJ stays unless elway has his guy locked up. Which seems doubtful at this point.


Elway won’t dump VJ unless he’s sure he can get the person he wants. It would be silly and foolish to move on without a clear choice. So I yhink That’s why he stays. No solid option. I would Have loved to see Matt Patricia in Denver.

I said this a while back as well. Perhaps the guy he wants is still coaching. I don't have a lot of faith that Joseph is magically gonna turn it around, and be a playoff HC next year.

[Cugel]

Well, none of you got your wish because VJ is back. And that makes the most sense too. Elway can't just fire the coach after 1 year and maintain any credibility when HE was responsible for most of the problems because he failed to draft talent especially on offense. And he failed to give Joseph a QB.

If he fails this year with a veteran FA QB and a top 5 draft pick, then fine. Get rid of him.