Never Tank

[Ground Control]

Period.

[Ground Control]

The gain in the draft of young hopefuls will never equal the loss of a winning culture by experienced adults and professionals that play in the NFL to win. Anyone that says we should fail, so we can win has no clue. Why would a first round QB or a free agent ringer want to come to Denver if they are losers, and embrace being losers.

So much more but hell no to that...

[MOtorboat]

Bullshit.

Teams don’t lose “winning culture” (whatever the **** that even means, anyway), by losing 8-10 games in one season, two years after winning a Super Bowl. The NFL is the most level playing field of any major sport. Teams go up and down every year, and the first losing season in the last seven and third in the last 35 years doesn’t mean that’s suddenly happened.

That said, that one losing season produced a Super Bowl MVP, so let’s not act like high draft picks can’t be impact players.

[Ground Control]

Well said.

Otherwise, I'm sure you understand WTF I mean by 'winning culture', since you handled the term so well in your rebuke. I agree on every count except that purposefully losing is the best way to go.

I'm not saying that if the Broncos play their heart out and still lose in competitive games, it meaningless to get a higher draft pick next year. I'm not saying that one losing season makes a losing culture, or 'habit'. Or, that this season negates every other thing the Broncos accomplished in the past.

I'm saying that those Broncos 'fans' that hope we lose, or that the Broncos give up, in the hopes of looking for a better hand in the poker game that is the NFL draft regarding QBs are clueless.

I'm saying that it will never happen. No professional with any sort of pride will purposefully lose just to get a higher draft pick next year. These are guys playing for their jobs and most of them are badasses that will be here next year too. They want a better leader on the field but again, what leader worth his name will want to play for a team that doesn't play it's ass off in the last two games of the season? For their jobs and for the future...

I'm saying that passion and respect is so much more important than, and necessary to integrating, any draft pick (or free agent) that the Broncos court next year. That's winning culture. At least as far as I have learned from listening to the players in interviews.

[Ground Control]

Per example, Do we let a clown that has shown no heart, leadership, or game/ team/ scheme awareness play the last two games, so we can 'see what he has to offer', then he has already shown us all he has to offer? Or, do we let Brock play? He may be far from perfect, and is not our QB of the future...but we're talking backups at this point. Anyone that thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. So, talking backups, how is the guy that has shown the most promise this year not worthy of 'seeing what he has to offer'?

My main point was about winning because it matters. This secondary point is a big part of that, IMO. Lynch is not a part of our future. An unfortunately large part of the past 2 decades of Broncos history is littered with the corpses of QB wishful thinking, and it's painful fallout. Lynch is done and it's in the teams best interest to understand the lesson in that. It is a lesson that hopefully will teach the leadership that example takes precedence over wishful thinking. Osweiller is an example of both lessons. He might not live up to the expectation thrown upon him but he is definitely the leader that the team needs at the moment. A leader that will keep the love of being a Bronco at the forefront of every other player in the locker room. Those are the things that help a rookie head coach in his second year, way more than seeing if a clown is still a clown...just to say you've seen it.

[spikerman]

Cant you just consolidate all of your thoughts into one thread?

[Ground Control]

Cant you just consolidate all of your thoughts into one thread?

LOL! Yes, I can. This year is a bust because of Elway. Let's look to fresh blood balanced by vets giving a shit to make next year a keeper. Whether a vet leads us, or a draft gem, make the entirety of the franchise at his disposal. It may cost us a year but it'll be much funner to watch than the nonsense that happened this year. This year was all about covering Elway's mistakes at QB, period.

There, a post. Sort of.

[MOtorboat]

LOL! Yes, I can. This year is a bust because of Elway. Let's look to fresh blood balanced by vets giving a shit to make next year a keeper. Whether a vet leads us, or a draft gem, make the entirety of the franchise at his disposal. It may cost us a year but it'll be much funner to watch than the nonsense that happened this year. This year was all about covering Elway's mistakes at QB, period.

There, a post. Sort of.

I'll agree with you here. The mistake was at quarterback. You couldn't enter a season with Siemian winning the job and expect a good season.

I will disagree that Lynch shouldn't play now. He absolutely should. Maybe some will say it's "tanking," but at some point, at the QB position, the guy has to face live bullets for an extended period of time. I'm not going to give up on him after 2 1/2-3 games (officially three starts), when this ******* franchise put out Tim Tebow for 14 starts (literally, the worst quarterback I've ever watched) and Trevor Siemian for 24 starts. We can watch Lynch for two more starts, and frankly, I don't have much patience for the whiners who don't want to see Lynch. But if Elway doesn't do something at the quarterback position in the offseason, it will be another long year next year.

[Ground Control]

I'll agree with you here. The mistake was at quarterback. You couldn't enter a season with Siemian winning the job and expect a good season.

I will disagree that Lynch shouldn't play now. He absolutely should. Maybe some will say it's "tanking," but at some point, at the QB position, the guy has to face live bullets for an extended period of time. I'm not going to give up on him after 2 1/2-3 games (officially three starts), when this ******* franchise put out Tim Tebow for 14 starts (literally, the worst quarterback I've ever watched) and Trevor Siemian for 24 starts. We can watch Lynch for two more starts, and frankly, I don't have much patience for the whiners who don't want to see Lynch. But if Elway doesn't do something at the quarterback position in the offseason, it will be another long year next year.

Right on. Maybe we see eye to eye that Lynch was played wrong. We definitely disagree on Siemian. He freaking lost it this year but in a league of QB shortfalls, he's got a future. After watching him flail about in a scheme that was forced on him to a painful level, and watching other QBs flail for the same or whatever reason, I have come to believe that he is not an anomaly. The NFL is riddled with Siemians, so how his story plays out is yet to be determined.

I don't think playing Lynch is 'tanking'. I don't think that VJ, or anyone on the Broncos staff wants to tank. I just think that Lynch has faced the bullets. And he has flinched every time. I was really excited to see Lynch succeed when he was drafted. I can't pretend to have understood last year's QB challenge. It was beyond me but I thought Lynch should get the job because a franchise Qb needs to feel the pain before he can make the right calls. I totally admit to falling under Elway's sway on the issue though. I just refuse to continue to mindlessly fall to his lack of logic any longer. I'm not whining, IMO. I could be wrong but whining happens when shit happens that we don't like and we have no other means of stating our opinion. All of us are whiners on this forum, by default, when something happens that we don't agree with, yet we feel inclined to state an opinion, true?

I'm down with Lynch having another shot. I'm just clearly stating my opinion that he will fail. He will always fail as a Bronco. He will hopefully not fail for the rest of his career but he cried, and whined, and panicked, and assumed as a 1rst rounder in Denver that the carpet should be laid before him, and I don't see any reality where he changes his stripes while a Bronco. Again, Elway f'ed him from the beginning. Elway is the bigger failure for propping up a kid he believed in but refused to show any sign of believing in him on the ground.

I don't think that Osweiller should start just because I have no clue who Lynch is. I have followed Lych, and rooted for him, for 2 years. At every example that he showed some small promise, I wanted him to succeed. He just sucks, though. He might not suck in another organization, but he sucks here. He will always suck here, IMO. That is not whining, that is bowing to the facts. Please let me know of any sustained circumstance where he hasn't sucked and I will stop 'whining'. Otherwise, reality is a hell of a drug.

I want to see a Lynch that doesn't exist. Just like you. I simply understand that our false image will never be the QB, or leader, that the Broncos (or any NFL team) needs. Is that whining? Or, are you delusional? We'll get to see how the definitions play out together.

And yes, all of this bantering is about a backup, as I'm sure we both agree that Lynch is not an NFL starter. Elway has to address the issue. I personally think his strengths will shine and he will choose a free agent, and we'll have Brees or Cousins, and someone will get to learn under a football giant. We'll see how that plays out though...It will be one hell of an off-season as a Bronco fan!

[MOtorboat]

Right on. Maybe we see eye to eye that Lynch was played wrong. We definitely disagree on Siemian. He freaking lost it this year but in a league of QB shortfalls, he's got a future. After watching him flail about in a scheme that was forced on him to a painful level, and watching other QBs flail for the same or whatever reason, I have come to believe that he is not an anomaly. The NFL is riddled with Siemians, so how his story plays out is yet to be determined.

He is a backup in this league, meaning he's shown enough to earn a few mil a year and hold a clipboard, as long as he doesn't have to be a long-term starter, which would expose his shortcomings. He's in no way a starter, and shouldn't have been a starter, but he was a good draft pick and he could stick in the league as a backup if he wants to. He's only had three good games in the 24 he's started.


I don't think playing Lynch is 'tanking'. I don't think that VJ, or anyone on the Broncos staff wants to tank. I just think that Lynch has faced the bullets. And he has flinched every time. I was really excited to see Lynch succeed when he was drafted. I can't pretend to have understood last year's QB challenge. It was beyond me but I thought Lynch should get the job because a franchise Qb needs to feel the pain before he can make the right calls. I totally admit to falling under Elway's sway on the issue though. I just refuse to continue to mindlessly fall to his lack of logic any longer. I'm not whining, IMO. I could be wrong but whining happens when shit happens that we don't like and we have no other means of stating our opinion. All of us are whiners on this forum, by default, when something happens that we don't agree with, yet we feel inclined to state an opinion, true?

You've certainly insinuated that starting Lynch is tanking. Four games isn't enough live bullets. It's just not. And with all due respect, you started a thread named "F Elway." Sure feels like whining to me. That said, that comment wasn't just directed at you, but to many people.


I'm down with Lynch having another shot. I'm just clearly stating my opinion that he will fail. He will always fail as a Bronco. He will hopefully not fail for the rest of his career but he cried, and whined, and panicked, and assumed as a 1rst rounder in Denver that the carpet should be laid before him, and I don't see any reality where he changes his stripes while a Bronco. Again, Elway f'ed him from the beginning. Elway is the bigger failure for propping up a kid he believed in but refused to show any sign of believing in him on the ground.

I don't disagree. But he should get that shot. Who is your source on Lynch, crying, whining and panicking? Because he showed some emotion? That's a really unfair conclusion to draw from 30 seconds of television. I also don't think Elway screwed any of the quarterbacks on this team.


I don't think that Osweiller should start just because I have no clue who Lynch is. I have followed Lych, and rooted for him, for 2 years. At every example that he showed some small promise, I wanted him to succeed. He just sucks, though. He might not suck in another organization, but he sucks here. He will always suck here, IMO. That is not whining, that is bowing to the facts. Please let me know of any sustained circumstance where he hasn't sucked and I will stop 'whining'. Otherwise, reality is a hell of a drug.

I didn't insinuate that you don't know who Lynch is. He may suck, but he gets these two games. The season is over.


I want to see a Lynch that doesn't exist. Just like you. I simply understand that our false image will never be the QB, or leader, that the Broncos (or any NFL team) needs. Is that whining? Or, are you delusional? We'll get to see how the definitions play out together.

I understand that too, but he needs to play.


And yes, all of this bantering is about a backup, as I'm sure we both agree that Lynch is not an NFL starter. Elway has to address the issue. I personally think his strengths will shine and he will choose a free agent, and we'll have Brees or Cousins, and someone will get to learn under a football giant. We'll see how that plays out though...It will be one hell of an off-season as a Bronco fan!

None of the quarterbacks on this roster are starters going forward.

[Ground Control]

Yeah. The F Elway post is totally whining. I have to own that.

My source on Lynch is 760AM and my own observations. Having given up myself to being a full on Broncos fan this year, I committed to every detail of the preseason on radio, tv, and paper. It doesn't make me an authority at any level, but I do believe I heard every opinion on, and action of Lynch before the season started. He showed an ounce of promise in the week before the Green Bay PS game...but collapsed when the game began.

He continued the example during the Oakland game. I don't condemn him for crying on the sidelines during that game. Again, I felt for him and I am a smaller man than him because I have never faced that situation. But empathy has little place in the NFL. It generally only applies when serious injuries occur and definitely not when a supposed leader of men breaks down when he gets a booboo. Or, when things don't go his way. Paxton Lynch has continuously shown his immaturity during adversity. I can look up interviews if you like, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. He gave lip service to team cohesiveness and was obviously irked when he spoke after losing the job to Siemian. Osweiller, a multi-million dollar starter has done nothing but show acquiescence and team spirit as a Bronco this year. It can arguably be said that he damn well better...but it can also be said about Lynch.

I've only heard rumors on this but it seems clear from observers that Lynch refuses to study and take the extra steps needed to make up for his shortcomings. If he was a god, no need. But he is a man that cries like a baby when things don't go his way, so the only thing that can make him a winner is making every move to change who he is. He's just not doing that.

I agree by default that Lynch needs to play, if he can. Default being the majority opinion of the Broncos Organization, and not your's or mine. I would just rather see what Osweiller has to offer. He has shown so much more professionalism than Lynch this year. He's not our guy but he is a guy that killed it recently. After middling performances, I know he's not reliable but if winning matters, and Lynch has already shown his mettle (which I argue to be true), why not just let shit play out and let the winner win, until he losses? Doesn't it make the whole QB competition at the beginning of the year a joke to not do so?

Osweiller is the better backup to whomever Elway brings in next year. Period. He is a vet and a gamer. He can step in immediately if a free agent star is the Broncos leader next year and falls to injury. He will learn more under a master than another guy that falls into the role, unless that guy is a drafted franchise-future kind of guy. He will give everything he has to make a franchise draftee a better QB. Would Lynch do the same? If so, wouldn't it still be awkward as hell to share the same room as the man that failed and got screwed by the Broncos?

So, to end: I'm cool if he gets as much play time as he can handle in the last two games. I just hope that he will not Be a Bronco next year. I'm also totally cool with being proved wrong, if it means good things for the Broncos.

To say that this is not obvious is to pretend to be blind.

[BroncoWave]

Moaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr Thrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaadssssssssssssssss sss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I'll agree with you here. The mistake was at quarterback. You couldn't enter a season with Siemian winning the job and expect a good season.

I will disagree that Lynch shouldn't play now. He absolutely should. Maybe some will say it's "tanking," but at some point, at the QB position, the guy has to face live bullets for an extended period of time. I'm not going to give up on him after 2 1/2-3 games (officially three starts), when this ******* franchise put out Tim Tebow for 14 starts (literally, the worst quarterback I've ever watched) and Trevor Siemian for 24 starts. We can watch Lynch for two more starts, and frankly, I don't have much patience for the whiners who don't want to see Lynch. But if Elway doesn't do something at the quarterback position in the offseason, it will be another long year next year.

I don’t want to see Lynch, but I agree with you. We need to use meaningless games to see if he improves at all. My contention was the crap VJ was trying to feed us by saying winning is the goal while saying in the same statement they want to play Lynch. Playing Lynch is the very definition of decreasing your chances of winning. Personally, I just don’t like the upside unless we’re going to use him in a similar fashion to Marriota, but he doesn’t have the intangibles of Marcus or the speed.