The case against Vance Joseph

[Hawgdriver]

REASONS:

1. Hiring Brock Olivo
2. Allowing complacency during bye week
3. McKenzie
4. Record
5. Death Spiral Losing Streak of Terribad
6. (Fan perceived?) lack of incisive football acumen
7. Changing staff to make situation worse
8. Repeated schematic failures (vs. TE, concealing RT weakness, kneeling on kickoff, getting Jamaal Charles in space)
9. Vacillation -- failing to name starting QB, starting LG, in pressers

Original post--

This thread is for the cold, clinical facts that prove VJ is not HC material. It's not a rip VJ because his face thread. It's not a mock the puzzled guy thread.

It's observations about things that VJ has done that indicate he's not HC material.

I'm going to devil's advocate the heck out of stuff, take the "it's not VJ's fault" side of things, and then you beat me up. Because what I'm after is a slam dunk case that this guy ain't the solution.

I'll start.

Hiring Brock Olivo as special teams coordinator is a clear mistake. Broncos special teams are the most poorly coached special teams unit I've seen in recent memory. Execution is awful, inexcusable penalties continue to be called on these units, decisions made by ST coaches or HC in relation to ST are objectively suboptimal.

If it was VJ's decision to hire Brock, and not Elway's, it shows VJ cannot build the winning NFL machine.

[Hawgdriver]

After posting this, I immediately say to myself 'what's the point?' It's so obvious he's bad. Everyone is going to laugh at me for even thinking there is a grain of hope he should/can be a HC for the Broncos now.

[NightTrainLayne]

The lack of decisiveness. From the beginning exposed in the QB battle. A good coaching staff would have named a starter at least 2 weeks earlier imo.

It continues in examples almost every week. From McKenzie continuing to field (and fumble) punts etc. etc.

[Hawgdriver]

The lack of decisiveness. From the beginning exposed in the QB battle. A good coaching staff would have named a starter at least 2 weeks earlier imo.

Elway wanted Paxton to have every chance to start this season. Elway is tenured boss, he hired Vance, Vance had his orders.


It continues in examples almost every week. From McKenzie continuing to field (and fumble) punts etc. etc.

McKenzie was drafted by Elway to add juice. Rookies make mistakes that are teachable moments. As a coach you have to know if a player can put it all together after the mistakes. If anything, it showed fortitude and conviction to give McKenzie that final chance.

[NightTerror218]

Vance stuck to guns until epic failure and not willing to make changes until too late. This is not high school or college. These are pro players who get paid, if they can not do their duty then they sit. You dont let a failing player keep failing in order to learn. You can't say I made a decision and will stick with it no matter what.

[Hawgdriver]

Vance stuck to guns until epic failure and not willing to make changes until too late. This is not high school or college. These are pro players who get paid, if they can not do their duty then they sit. You dont let a failing player keep failing in order to learn. You can't say I made a decision and will stick with it no matter what.

You mean the McKenzie fumbles?

[Davii]

The absolute cluelessness. A team making the exact same mistakes week in and out, even though the HC says they're going to pay special attention to it, is either not following direction (ie. lost the team) or the coach is not effective in the performance of his duties. Further, to continue with the same plan week in and out that has failed every single time shows a complete lack of self-scouting, and a lack of awareness that is extremely troubling. There is no way that the players in that locker room respect a word this man says anymore. 90% of them played for Kubiak and knew a winning organization, when Kubes spoke they believed what he said because he'd proven that he could succeed and lead the team where it should be. Everything Vance has done has fallen apart, at this point I truly feel he has lost not only the team, but also his coaching staff.

[Hawgdriver]

The absolute cluelessness. A team making the exact same mistakes week in and out, even though the HC says they're going to pay special attention to it, is either not following direction (ie. lost the team) or the coach is not effective in the performance of his duties. Further, to continue with the same plan week in and out that has failed every single time shows a complete lack of self-scouting, and a lack of awareness that is extremely troubling. There is no way that the players in that locker room respect a word this man says anymore. 90% of them played for Kubiak and knew a winning organization, when Kubes spoke they believed what he said because he'd proven that he could succeed and lead the team where it should be. Everything Vance has done has fallen apart, at this point I truly feel he has lost not only the team, but also his coaching staff.

No offense Davii, but I don't see many specifics that are truly damning against VJ.

When you say cluelessness, and explain further that you mean "the exact same mistakes week in and out," which mistakes do you mean?

And when you say the same plan, which do you mean? Offensive, defensive, ST? Just overall conduct of the team during the week and into the games? Wouldn't the coordinators be responsible for the plan?

[chazoe60]

He pronounces "th" like "d" and it bugs me. Plus, I heard approximately 12 seconds of his press conference yesterday on the radio and this is what I heard "it was a back and forth game in the first quarter" I was dying laughing.

He's a clueless idiot who should never been hired.

[Tbolt]

I see a dove valley conversation going this way

VaJ: Why are you so angry John? You said to "Embrace the Tank!"

JE: I said 'Taint'.

[Hawgdriver]

He pronounces "th" like "d" and it bugs me. Plus, I heard approximately 12 seconds of his press conference yesterday on the radio and this is what I heard "it was a back and forth game in the first quarter" I was dying laughing.

He's a clueless idiot who should never been hired.

How important is a coach's presser-fu in the W/L column?

It was back and forth in the first quarter. The score was 3-2 or something like that at the end.

[Timmy!]

Insert game tape after the bye. Press play. Cringe uncontrollably, try not to murder innocent animals/children.

[Shazam!]

The team is completely out played every week and unprepared. They may not win another game.

[Hawgdriver]

Not having the team at DEFCON 1 after the bye is what rankles me the most. After Olivo.

You have two weeks to prep for one of the worst teams in the league and play uninspired, flat football with no good offensive or defensive plan, and sorry execution.

I hate to add such a nebulous and fuzzy item of evidence like this, but I agree--allowing complacency and self-satisfaction during bye week.

I'm going to edit the first post so it's like a sticky with all the best reasons. I think this is one.

[Nomad]

The team is completely out played every week and unprepared. They may not win another game.

Isn't this what people want now......suck for Sam?

[dogfish]

The absolute cluelessness. A team making the exact same mistakes week in and out, even though the HC says they're going to pay special attention to it, is either not following direction (ie. lost the team) or the coach is not effective in the performance of his duties. Further, to continue with the same plan week in and out that has failed every single time shows a complete lack of self-scouting, and a lack of awareness that is extremely troubling. There is no way that the players in that locker room respect a word this man says anymore. 90% of them played for Kubiak and knew a winning organization, when Kubes spoke they believed what he said because he'd proven that he could succeed and lead the team where it should be. Everything Vance has done has fallen apart, at this point I truly feel he has lost not only the team, but also his coaching staff.

after putting tiny hands mckenzie out there to fumble again, i don't think he can have a single shred of credibility left in the locker room. . . maybe if chris harris fights the dipshit in practice again they will take the hint. . .

[Hawgdriver]

The team is completely out played every week and unprepared. They may not win another game.

Can you be specific? Here is your chance to shine Shazam! Your moment! Hit me with the good stuff, and be specific. Pretend you are arguing it to the court lol.

[Hawgdriver]

after putting tiny hands mckenzie out there to fumble again, i don't think he can have a single shred of credibility left in the locker room. . . maybe if chris harris fights the dipshit in practice again they will take the hint. . .

Where do you draw the line? 4 fumbles? 5? 6? He's a rookie, and these PR/KR guys are volatile types. He had real upside.

I can give a coach a pass for loyalty and believing in a player (to a point). All players want that in their coach. Some wiggle to overcome a mistake with improved play going forward. "If coach believes in him, he'll believe in me too."

But I can't give a pass for the turnovers that you had to know were possible--even likely.

At best, Joseph believed in a player too much and in hindsight his belief was proved wrong. At worst, Joseph decided to handicap his team with a -6 turnover ratio on the season.

Which one is it? When was the correct time to shut down project McKenzie?

[Tbolt]

He should have been cut after the NE game. The fact that he wasn't, and has been put out to do MORE damage, while getting a free pass "He's our guy, that's his job" Is beyond incompetent. The guy isn't a #1 draft pick or something. Only Denver would continue to play, not cut, this guy.

[Hawgdriver]

He should have been cut after the NE game. The fact that he wasn't, and has been put out to do MORE damage, while getting a free pass "He's our guy, that's his job" Is beyond incompetent. The guy isn't a #1 draft pick or something. Only Denver would continue to play, not cut, this guy.

When I find examples of 'good' coaching staffs sticking with a troubled player and it eventually worked out, you'll retract your statement?

[Hawgdriver]

Alright, I'll add McKenzie to the list. Let the record show my disdain for using ex post logic on a priori decisions.

[broncofaninfla]

The lack of effective in game adjustments is one of VJ's most obvious deficiencies. Our games go from bad to worse weekly now to the point where the confusion is obvious. VJ is lost and over his head and the players don't and won't play hard for him. He just doesn't have what it takes.

[Hawgdriver]

The lack of effective in game adjustments

I like it...

Do any in particular come to mind? I think you might be right but I can't think of any examples.

[Tbolt]

When I find examples of 'good' coaching staffs sticking with a troubled player and it eventually worked out, you'll retract your statement?

I'll give you an example. From a COMPETENT Broncos coaching staff. Denver drafted RB Chris Howard in the 5th round. Guy was on his way to making the team, started fumbling in Pre-Season, was PROMPTLY cut.

[Hawgdriver]

I'll give you an example. From a COMPETENT Broncos coaching staff. Denver drafted RB Chris Howard in the 5th round. Guy was on his way to making the team, started fumbling in Pre-Season, was PROMPTLY cut.

Should Eric Dickerson have been cut or benched his rookie season? What is the line? You think Deangelo Henderson should still be on the Broncos roster?

There are also examples of rookies who solved their significant fumbling issues and became productive.

[Buff]

Tangible reasons for firing:

- Losing 8 games in a row any time. By an average margin of 16 points per game. With a defense that has 3 healthy All Pros.
- Presiding over a team ranked 31st in turnover margin.
- Presiding over the 31st ranked special teams in the league.
- Firing your offensive coordinator and then performing worse on offense.

I mean you could argue he got saddled with a terrible offense, which he's managed terribly, but you could give him a pass there... But what's the excuse on defense and special teams that have gotten worse under his leadership?

Intangible reasons for firing:

- Not having a PhD level fluency in football. Lots of platitudes and cliches, but not much real insight when you hear from this coach. I assume he's generally knowledgeable, but he hasn't impressed with his ability to convey.
- Those embarrassing timeouts at the end of the Miami game - what in the actual hell are you even doing other than projecting to everyone watching that you are absolutely clueless?
- All the hallmarks of an undisciplined football team. Too many penalties. Too many turnovers. Making the same mistakes over and over again.

[BroncoJoe]

Aren't "in game adjustments" handled by the respective coordinator? For all we know, VJ is telling the OC/DC/ST coaches to do X instead of Y, but they end up doing Z.

*playing devils advocate here...

[dogfish]

Where do you draw the line? 4 fumbles? 5? 6?

two. . . no more than two. . .

you remember when that pats player muffed a return on MNF, and belly cut him the next day?

[BroncoJoe]

two. . . no more than two. . .

you remember when that pats player muffed a return on MNF, and belly cut him the next day?

LOL - I think he cut him that night! Didn't he have to take a separate flight home or something?

[Hawgdriver]

Tangible reasons for firing:

- Losing 8 games in a row any time. By an average margin of 16 points per game. With a defense that has 3 healthy All Pros.
- Presiding over a team ranked 31st in turnover margin.
- Presiding over the 31st ranked special teams in the league.
- Firing your offensive coordinator and then performing worse on offense.

I mean you could argue he got saddled with a terrible offense, which he's managed terribly, but you could give him a pass there... But what's the excuse on defense and special teams that have gotten worse under his leadership?

Intangible reasons for firing:

- Not having a PhD level fluency in football. Lots of platitudes and cliches, but not much real insight when you hear from this coach. I assume he's generally knowledgeable, but he hasn't impressed with his ability to convey.
- Those embarrassing timeouts at the end of the Miami game - what in the actual hell are you even doing other than projecting to everyone watching that you are absolutely clueless?
- All the hallmarks of an undisciplined football team. Too many penalties. Too many turnovers. Making the same mistakes over and over again.

I agree with these below and accept them as written.


- Losing 8 games in a row any time. By an average margin of 16 points per game.
- Presiding over the 31st ranked special teams in the league.
- Firing your offensive coordinator and then performing worse on offense.
- Not having a PhD level fluency in football. Lots of platitudes and cliches, but not much real insight when you hear from this coach. I assume he's generally knowledgeable, but he hasn't impressed with his ability to convey.

This one below, of vital importance to many other reasons in that it so strongly relates to winning, seems correct but I'm not sure... Good teams avoid fielding players that create turnovers, true. But the roster is what it is. And whether a fumble is recovered or not is luck.


- Presiding over a team ranked 31st in turnover margin.

The timeouts are odd, perhaps evidence that he's pushing too hard and under too much pressure. Easy to poke fun at, super frustrating to fans, but from a distance you can say 'whatever.'
The penalties, are they heavily penalized? A few particular penalties--delay of game on kickoff, 12 men/10 men--cannot be justified. But those are few. Does the penalty issue rise to such a level that it is grounds for dismissal?
And 'the same mistakes'...which ones?


All the hallmarks of an undisciplined football team. Too many penalties. Too many turnovers. Making the same mistakes over and over again.
Those embarrassing timeouts at the end of the Miami game - what in the actual hell are you even doing other than projecting to everyone watching that you are absolutely clueless?

[dogfish]

Aren't "in game adjustments" handled by the respective coordinator? For all we know, VJ is telling the OC/DC/ST coaches to do X instead of Y, but they end up doing Z.

*playing devils advocate here...

if the coordinators fail week after week after week, who does it ultimately fall on?

we can't even make basic adjustments like stopping evan engram from killing us when we have aqib talib, and they have no healthy wideouts. . . we can't get our right tackle consistent help when he's clearly our most glaring weakness, we rarely ever find ways to get jamaal charles the ball in space. . . we can't consistently figure out when to take a knee on the damn kickoffs. . . at this point in the season, we're well past the point where that blame can all be dumped on the coordinators. . . joseph is olivo's boss-- he can tell him to sit mckenzie at any time he chooses. . . when he chooses not to, and mckenzie fumbles again, that shit is on vance for letting it continue to happen. . .


really, i love hawg, but this whole exercise is kinda silly. . . when the case is overwhelming and obvious, detailing the minutia is unnecessary, IMHO. . . we got straight clowned by the likes of the giants and dolphins. . . we've been shut out twice, and posted the worst losing streak in franchise history IIRC (or at least since the 60s). . . we are horribly undisciplined, generally unready to play since about week four, and have been getting worse instead of better. . . i haven't seen a single redeeming quality from him, frankly. . . has anyone else?

[Hawgdriver]

two. . . no more than two. . .

you remember when that pats player muffed a return on MNF, and belly cut him the next day?

Yeah, they let that leash out way too long. Gave him a mountaineer's length of rope and let him fall dozens of stories before the upwards yank. After 3 you have to shut the kid down. That rate is sky high and will flat lose you games in a hurry.

[Buff]

if the coordinators fail week after week after week, who does it ultimately fall on?

we can't even make basic adjustments like stopping evan engram from killing us when we have aqib talib, and they have no healthy wideouts. . . we can't get our right tackle consistent help when he's clearly our most glaring weakness, we rarely ever find ways to get jamaal charles the ball in space. . . we can't consistently figure out when to take a knee on the damn kickoffs. . . at this point in the season, we're well past the point where that blame can all be dumped on the coordinators. . . joseph is olivo's boss-- he can tell him to sit mckenzie at any time he chooses. . . when he chooses not to, and mckenzie fumbles again, that shit is on vance for letting it continue to happen. . .


really, i love hawg, but this whole exercise is kinda silly. . . when the case is overwhelming and obvious, detailing the minutia is unnecessary, IMHO. . . we got straight clowned by the likes of the giants and dolphins. . . we've been shut out twice, and posted the worst losing streak in franchise history IIRC (or at least since the 60s). . . we are horribly undisciplined, generally unready to play since about week four, and have been getting worse instead of better. . . i haven't seen a single redeeming quality from him, frankly. . . has anyone else?

Also - for as petulant as McDaniels was - I'd rather go back to the days of ripping the shit out of players who screw up their assignments (thinking of poor Dick Quinn) - as opposed to stoic cluelessness on the sidelines.

[Hawgdriver]

really, i love hawg, but this whole exercise is kinda silly. . .

Is it? Fans tend to emotion rather than logic and calculation.

But in this case, the two agree.

[Hawgdriver]

stoic cluelessness

This turn of phrase made me laugh.

[Hawgdriver]

stopping evan engram from killing us
right tackle consistent help
jamaal charles the ball in space.
take a knee on the damn kickoffs.

Updated

[dogfish]

also, add left guard to the list. . . the fact that we never named a starter there is a damn joke-- who does that? clown shoes, non-professional mouth-breathers like vance joseph, that's who. . .

[Tbolt]

Should Eric Dickerson have been cut or benched his rookie season? What is the line? You think Deangelo Henderson should still be on the Broncos roster?

There are also examples of rookies who solved their significant fumbling issues and became productive.

WTF are you talking about? Eric Dickerson is now somehow Isaih McKenzie? How is that a relateable example. I gave you an APPROPRIATE example. 5th round, fringe roster guy with fumbling issues. You don't let fringe players sink your team. You certainly don't keep putting them on the field.

Good God man, are you a relative of this guy?

[Timmy!]

if the coordinators fail week after week after week, who does it ultimately fall on?

we can't even make basic adjustments like stopping evan engram from killing us when we have aqib talib, and they have no healthy wideouts. . . we can't get our right tackle consistent help when he's clearly our most glaring weakness, we rarely ever find ways to get jamaal charles the ball in space. . . we can't consistently figure out when to take a knee on the damn kickoffs. . . at this point in the season, we're well past the point where that blame can all be dumped on the coordinators. . . joseph is olivo's boss-- he can tell him to sit mckenzie at any time he chooses. . . when he chooses not to, and mckenzie fumbles again, that shit is on vance for letting it continue to happen. . .


really, i love hawg, but this whole exercise is kinda silly. . . when the case is overwhelming and obvious, detailing the minutia is unnecessary, IMHO. . . we got straight clowned by the likes of the giants and dolphins. . . we've been shut out twice, and posted the worst losing streak in franchise history IIRC (or at least since the 60s). . . we are horribly undisciplined, generally unready to play since about week four, and have been getting worse instead of better. . . i haven't seen a single redeeming quality from him, frankly. . . has anyone else?

The dude can't even keep from spilling what I can only ******* assume was vodka at this point all over his coat. Holy shit that's it! That's how you don't know you got a delay of game on a kickoff, etc. VJ is higher than giraffe nuts out there.

[Hawgdriver]

WTF are you talking about? Eric Dickerson is now somehow Isaih McKenzie? How is that a relateable example. I gave you an APPROPRIATE example. 5th round, fringe roster guy with fumbling issues. You don't let fringe players sink your team. You certainly don't keep putting them on the field.

Good God man, are you a relative of this guy?

Never mind. Carry on.

[chazoe60]

WTF are you talking about? Eric Dickerson is now somehow Isaih McKenzie? How is that a relateable example. I gave you an APPROPRIATE example. 5th round, fringe roster guy with fumbling issues. You don't let fringe players sink your team. You certainly don't keep putting them on the field.

Good God man, are you a relative of this guy?

:laugh: calm down Beevis.

[dogfish]

hawggus just has an analytical brain. . .

[Slick]

also, add left guard to the list. . . the fact that we never named a starter there is a damn joke-- who does that? clown shoes, non-professional mouth-breathers like vance joseph, that's who. . .

Laughed at this almost as hard as I did at slim's upskirt shot.

[MOtorboat]

Isn't this what people want now......suck for Sam?

#garglefordonald

[Tned]

also, add left guard to the list. . . the fact that we never named a starter there is a damn joke-- who does that? clown shoes, non-professional mouth-breathers like vance joseph, that's who. . .

The rotation was asinine.

[NightTrainLayne]

Laughed at this almost as hard as I did at slim's upskirt shot.

??? What did I miss?

[Hawgdriver]

hawggus just has an analytical brain. . .

hell yeah I do, and an intuition like a Lithuanian pimp running the human trafficking game making fat stacks.

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[Hawgdriver]

I really do wonder what the point of this is, except to be expressly contrary.

No, I do know, and Ray Dalio would approve of this exercise.

[MOtorboat]

Alright, I'll add McKenzie to the list. Let the record show my disdain for using ex post logic on a priori decisions.

Whoa. After the fifth fumble, they finally benched him. We’re talking about a guy who had touched the ball less than 30 times turning it over five times. I don’t think this is a case where there’s any grey area about development. He can’t handle his duties. So he’s benched. Fine. New punt returner is there to specifically fair catch the ball, and performs said duty appropriately.

I don’t think it’s unfair to question why the player in the above situation who failed at his task is the one who started the next game. Reward the player who accomplished the task to a satisfactory level rather than the one who performed his task at a unsatisfactory level.

I might be able to see your stance if we were only talking about the first five fumbles and whether or not to bench him at that point - although even then the idea of not benching him is a slim argument. To run him out there again is just purely bad decision making, especially considering Jordan Taylor performed his duties to a satisfactory level, sadly the bare minimum is just hanging onto the ball. But such as it is, we must start there.

Now, you mentioned that you could provide examples of players who their coach kept dragging out there who performed at unsatisfactorily levels who then developed. I will call your potential bluff and ask you to identify a punt returner who fumbled six times and was allowed to keep his job.

[Slick]

??? What did I miss?

I forget which thread it was.

[Hawgdriver]

To run him out there again is just purely bad decision making,

Presumably he was rehabilitated with evidence to same during his 2 week timeout.

[Hawgdriver]

Now, you mentioned that you could provide examples of players who their coach kept dragging out there who performed at unsatisfactorily levels who then developed. I will call your potential bluff and ask you to identify a punt returner who fumbled six times and was allowed to keep his job.

And if it was a bluff?

I am curious about the line in terms of rookies, fumbles, and especially KR/PR since the rates have to be so high.

I'll take a quick peek but I might be quick to raise the white flag when it comes to the McKenzie level fumble rate.

[dogfish]

The penalties, are they heavily penalized?

okay hawgie, here's more detail for ya. . . yes, we are heavily penalized. . .

http://www.nflpenalties.com/

out of 32 teams, denver is tied for 31st in total flags thrown against us. . . we're 27th in accepted penalties against, and 24th in total penalty yards against. . . IMO, being next to last in penalties called against is pretty damning-- there's no way that's not bad coaching. . . we don't even have the excuse of playing aggressive, nasty football like some of the other teams (seattle) that you find high on the list. . . we're just bad, undisciplined, and too often lacking in proper technique. .

now obviously, this stat isn't a stand-alone indictment of VJ. . . stack it with the rest of the case, and it's awfully compelling. . .


did i point out the fact that we're in the last month of the season (at least for losers like us), and we still haven't named a starter at left guard?

[Hawgdriver]

okay hawgie, here's more detail for ya. . . yes, we are heavily penalized. . .

http://www.nflpenalties.com/

out of 32 teams, denver is tied for 31st in total flags thrown against us. . . we're 27th in accepted penalties against, and 24th in total penalty yards against. . . IMO, being next to last in penalties called against is pretty damning-- there's no way that's not bad coaching. . . we don't even have the excuse of playing aggressive, nasty football like some of the other teams (seattle) that you find high on the list. . . we're just bad, undisciplined, and too often lacking in proper technique. .

now obviously, this stat isn't a stand-alone indictment of VJ. . . stack it with the rest of the case, and it's awfully compelling. . .


did i point out the fact that we're in the last month of the season (at least for losers like us), and we still haven't named a starter at left guard?

Brilliant post, the closing line is poetry.

But, since I committed to this exercise...Seattle at 8-4 is by far the most penalized team. They decided on the basis of analytics to push the penalty line because penalties related to winning if done correctly.

I don't think that explains it, but it's something.

The penalties I've seen seem to be of this nature--

1. Bolles learning, Watson/Barbre sucking, and Leary mauling
2. Coaches cluelessing
3. Offensive holding
4. Stephenson/Garcia holding
5. Holding calls
6. False start
7. Holding, generally

..

100. Von's unsportsmanlike conduct penalty week 3 :smh:

[dogfish]

I'll take a quick peek but I might be quick to raise the white flag when it comes to the McKenzie level fumble rate.

i suspect you will be. . . most coaches actually like to win. . .

[Hawgdriver]

Now, you mentioned that you could provide examples of players who their coach kept dragging out there who performed at unsatisfactorily levels who then developed. I will call your potential bluff and ask you to identify a punt returner who fumbled six times and was allowed to keep his job.

https://247sports.com/nfl/seattle-seahawks/Bolt/Seattle-Seahawks-KR-Devin-Hester-address-fumble-concerns-50315185


Hester has fumbled a whooping five times in 12 games with the Baltimore Ravens this season. Although he's only lost one fumble; the fact that the ball is hitting the ground at all isn't what you want out of your return game.

Devin Hester, of course, is the best returner of all time.

[MOtorboat]

https://247sports.com/nfl/seattle-seahawks/Bolt/Seattle-Seahawks-KR-Devin-Hester-address-fumble-concerns-50315185



Devin Hester, of course, is the best returner of all time.

...and as the article notes, lost just one. But touché.

How many touchdowns did he have in that 12-game span?

[Buff]

Brilliant post, the closing line is poetry.

But, since I committed to this exercise...Seattle at 8-4 is by far the most penalized team. They decided on the basis of analytics to push the penalty line because penalties related to winning if done correctly.

I don't think that explains it, but it's something.

The penalties I've seen seem to be of this nature--

1. Bolles learning, Watson/Barbre sucking, and Leary mauling
2. Coaches cluelessing
3. Offensive holding
4. Stephenson/Garcia holding
5. Holding calls
6. False start
7. Holding, generally

..

100. Von's unsportsmanlike conduct penalty week 3 :smh:

Maybe I'm just honing in on it too much because it annoys me so much - but it seems like we take 2 offsides penalties per game with our pass rushers trying to anticipate the snap count.

[Hawgdriver]

...and as the article notes, lost just one. But touché.

How many touchdowns did he have in that 12-game span?

Hopefully at least one or more.

MO, I think Mitch Tanney might have some good data to color this discussion and perhaps defend VJ's approach to this player, but I have no appetite to recreate that analysis

--lol as an aside I'm watching Lights Out and a jumpscare just made me type some random characters which I just erased--

bottom line, truce

[Hawgdriver]

Maybe I'm just honing in on it too much because it annoys me so much - but it seems like we take 2 offsides penalties per game with our pass rushers trying to anticipate the snap count.

Felt like Von always got the rake on that game prior to this season..

[Buff]

Felt like Von always got the rake on that game prior to this season..

I was going to say, prior to this season I chalked it up to the cost of doing business with this bunch. The gains outweighed the downside. This year it just feels lazy and undisciplined without the upside.

[Shazam!]

--lol as an aside I'm watching Lights Out...

FX series about the former heavyweight champion? I thought that series was excellent. Very disappointed it didn't get renewed.

[MOtorboat]

FX series about the former heavyweight champion? I thought that series was excellent. Very disappointed it didn't get renewed.

No. The movie.

[sneakers]

I think the franchise has always done better with a veteran coach...but especially true for this team

[Shazam!]

FX series about the former heavyweight champion? I thought that series was excellent. Very disappointed it didn't get renewed.

No. The movie.

Have you seen the FX series? I think it was 2011? Excellent.

[Shazam!]

I think the franchise has always done better with a veteran coach...but especially true for this team

They need to go the Fox route in 2011. Something safe. Even a retread. Prefer a former Broncos guy.