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View Full Version : Lets go over the highest paid QBs in the NFL again.



Broncoknight30
11-28-2017, 08:43 AM
Lions QB Matthew Stafford: $27 million
Raiders QB Derek Carr: $25 million
Colts QB Andrew Luck: $24.6 million
Saints QB Drew Brees: $24.3 million
Redskins QB Kirk Cousins: $23.9 million
Ravens QB Joe Flacco: $22.1 million
Packers QB Aaron Rodgers: $22 million
Seahawks QB Russell Wilson: $21.9 million
Steelers QB Ben Roethlisberger: $21.85 million
Cardinals QB Carson Palmer: $21 million; Giants QB Eli Manning: $21 million


There is the top 10. So, lets discuss how important it is to land a franchise QB again, which is the same thing as a high priced QB. BTW, we will see what Carson Wentz will get when he is up for contract in Philly.

Aaron Rodgers, is great. Has not been to the SB since 2010. That, was 7 years ago. They have not had an adequate defense since that year. Oh, that year they were ranked...I believe top 5. If not first very high. I think they only gave up 15 points per game that year. Broncos in 2015 gave up 18.5 points per game, just give a perspective on that. The Packers defense has not been so high since they paid Rodgers.

Russell Wilson recently got paid after they won it. They have not been quite the same have they?

Anyone noticing anything about that list in relation to Super Bowls? Roethlisberger has not won it since 2008, and Brees not since 2009. Is that telling or not?

chazoe60
11-28-2017, 08:47 AM
Teach us old wise one.

BigDaddyBronco
11-28-2017, 09:25 AM
Let's look at who was in the SuperBowl since 2000 (it will probably play out like this if you go back further). After all, you got to be in it to win....

XXXIV Jan. 30, 2000 Georgia Dome (Atlanta) St. Louis 23, Tennessee 16
XXXV Jan. 28, 2001 Raymond James Stadium (Tampa, Fla.) Baltimore 34, New York Giants 7
XXXVI Feb. 3, 2002 Superdome (New Orleans) New England 20, St. Louis 17
XXXVII Jan. 26, 2003 Qualcomm Stadium (San Diego) Tampa Bay 48, Oakland 21
XXXVIII Feb. 1, 2004 Reliant Stadium (Houston) New England 32, Carolina 29
XXXIX Feb. 6, 2005 Alltel Stadium (Jacksonville, Fla.) New England 24, Philadelphia 21
XL Feb. 5, 2006 Ford Field (Detroit) Pittsburgh 21, Seattle 10
XLI Feb. 4, 2007 Dolphin Stadium (Miami) Indianapolis 29, Chicago 17
XLII Feb. 3, 2008 University of Phoenix Stadium (Glendale, Ariz.) New York Giants 17, New England 14
XLIII Feb. 1, 2009 Raymond James Stadium (Tampa, Fla.) Pittsburgh Steelers 27, Arizona Cardinals 23
XLIV Feb. 7, 2010 Sun Life Stadium (Miami) New Orleans Saints 31, Indianapolis Colts 17
XLV Feb. 6, 2011 Cowboys Stadium (Arlington, Texas) Green Bay Packers 31, Pittsburgh Steelers 25
XLVI Feb. 5, 2012 Lucas Oil Stadium (Indianapolis) New York Giants 21, New England Patriots 17
XLVII Feb. 3, 2013 Mercedes-Benz Superdome (New Orleans) Baltimore Ravens 34, San Francisco 49ers 31
XLVIII Feb. 2, 2014 MetLife Stadium (East Rutherford, N.J.) Seattle Seahawks 43, Denver Broncos 8
XLIX Feb. 1, 2015 University of Phoenix Stadium (Glendale, Ariz.) New England Patriots 28, Seattle Seahawks 24
50 Feb. 7, 2016 Levi's Stadium (Santa Clara, Calif.) Denver Broncos 24, Carolina Panthers 10
LI Feb. 5, 2017 NRG Stadium (Houston) New England Patriots 34, Atlanta Falcons 28

So, if we put them in a tier system we break it down like this.

Top Tier (HOF or sure shots) - Tom Brady (W 02, 04, 05, 15, 17 L 08, 12), Peyton Manning (W 07, 16 L 10, 14), Kurt Warner (W 00, L 02, 09)
2nd Tier (not yet HOF but probable) - Ben Roethlisberger (W 06, 09 L 11), Eli Manning (W 08, 12), Drew Brees (W 10), Aaron Rodgers (W 11), Russell Wilson (W 14 L 15)
3rd Tier (Franchise QB's) - Rich Gannon (L 03), Donovan McNabb (L 05), Matt Hasselback (L 06), Joe Flacco (W 13), Cam Newton (L 16), Matt Ryan (L 17)
4th Tier (anyone else) - Steve McNair (L 00), Trent Dilfer (W 01), Kerry Collins (L 01), Brad Johnson (W 03), Jake Delhomme (L 04), Rex Grossman (L 07), Colin Kaepernick (L 13)

You can probably debate on who should be in the 3rd or 4th tier, but it is pretty obvious. 23 of the possible 36 slots are from HOF or probable HOF QB's. Another 6 are from Franchise type QB's. 7 are from guys who had a few good years or were journeymen.

Bottom line, roughly 2/3 rds of the QB slots were from Elite HOF type QB's. Your chances of being in the SB are much better if you have that type of guy. And if you want to go more than once, you have to have that type of guy.

Broncoknight30
11-28-2017, 10:32 AM
Let's look at who was in the SuperBowl since 2000 (it will probably play out like this if you go back further). After all, you got to be in it to win....

XXXIV Jan. 30, 2000 Georgia Dome (Atlanta) St. Louis 23, Tennessee 16
XXXV Jan. 28, 2001 Raymond James Stadium (Tampa, Fla.) Baltimore 34, New York Giants 7
XXXVI Feb. 3, 2002 Superdome (New Orleans) New England 20, St. Louis 17
XXXVII Jan. 26, 2003 Qualcomm Stadium (San Diego) Tampa Bay 48, Oakland 21
XXXVIII Feb. 1, 2004 Reliant Stadium (Houston) New England 32, Carolina 29
XXXIX Feb. 6, 2005 Alltel Stadium (Jacksonville, Fla.) New England 24, Philadelphia 21
XL Feb. 5, 2006 Ford Field (Detroit) Pittsburgh 21, Seattle 10
XLI Feb. 4, 2007 Dolphin Stadium (Miami) Indianapolis 29, Chicago 17
XLII Feb. 3, 2008 University of Phoenix Stadium (Glendale, Ariz.) New York Giants 17, New England 14
XLIII Feb. 1, 2009 Raymond James Stadium (Tampa, Fla.) Pittsburgh Steelers 27, Arizona Cardinals 23
XLIV Feb. 7, 2010 Sun Life Stadium (Miami) New Orleans Saints 31, Indianapolis Colts 17
XLV Feb. 6, 2011 Cowboys Stadium (Arlington, Texas) Green Bay Packers 31, Pittsburgh Steelers 25
XLVI Feb. 5, 2012 Lucas Oil Stadium (Indianapolis) New York Giants 21, New England Patriots 17
XLVII Feb. 3, 2013 Mercedes-Benz Superdome (New Orleans) Baltimore Ravens 34, San Francisco 49ers 31
XLVIII Feb. 2, 2014 MetLife Stadium (East Rutherford, N.J.) Seattle Seahawks 43, Denver Broncos 8
XLIX Feb. 1, 2015 University of Phoenix Stadium (Glendale, Ariz.) New England Patriots 28, Seattle Seahawks 24
50 Feb. 7, 2016 Levi's Stadium (Santa Clara, Calif.) Denver Broncos 24, Carolina Panthers 10
LI Feb. 5, 2017 NRG Stadium (Houston) New England Patriots 34, Atlanta Falcons 28

So, if we put them in a tier system we break it down like this.

Top Tier (HOF or sure shots) - Tom Brady (W 02, 04, 05, 15, 17 L 08, 12), Peyton Manning (W 07, 16 L 10, 14), Kurt Warner (W 00, L 02, 09)
2nd Tier (not yet HOF but probable) - Ben Roethlisberger (W 06, 09 L 11), Eli Manning (W 08, 12), Drew Brees (W 10), Aaron Rodgers (W 11), Russell Wilson (W 14 L 15)
3rd Tier (Franchise QB's) - Rich Gannon (L 03), Donovan McNabb (L 05), Matt Hasselback (L 06), Joe Flacco (W 13), Cam Newton (L 16), Matt Ryan (L 17)
4th Tier (anyone else) - Steve McNair (L 00), Trent Dilfer (W 01), Kerry Collins (L 01), Brad Johnson (W 03), Jake Delhomme (L 04), Rex Grossman (L 07), Colin Kaepernick (L 13)

You can probably debate on who should be in the 3rd or 4th tier, but it is pretty obvious. 23 of the possible 36 slots are from HOF or probable HOF QB's. Another 6 are from Franchise type QB's. 7 are from guys who had a few good years or were journeymen.

Bottom line, roughly 2/3 rds of the QB slots were from Elite HOF type QB's. Your chances of being in the SB are much better if you have that type of guy. And if you want to go more than once, you have to have that type of guy.

Those SB with the elite QBs, I am curious to know a few things.

One, was it before or after those QBs were paid elite contracts?

Two, how balanced were their offenses? I find it interesting how out of the top 10 most prolific passing seasons, only one won the SB in the history of the NFL.

Third, i would love to see how solid those defenses were for those championship teams. I mentioned for instance that Rodgers in the year he won it had a top 5 defense that only gave up 15 points per game. Since he got the big money, their defense has been very inconsistent and they have never been back to the SB.

I also find it interesting in Brady's first 3 SBs he won, he did not pass for 4000 yards or have 30TD passes in any of them. Those Pats defenses were certainly elite, especially the one that down the greatest show on turf.

Point being there were other key factors to all of those teams. Also, out of top 10 highest paid QBs, none of them have won it since being paid top dollar.

Buff
11-28-2017, 10:39 AM
Kirk Cousins is gonna look great in orange.

The Glue Factory
11-28-2017, 10:45 AM
One, was it before or after those QBs were paid elite contracts?


Compare the first list versus the second. Brady has gone to the SB more than any other QB in NFL history, yet he isn't among the highest paid QBs. Brady's success is because of the team and coaching around him. I think he understands that and gives up money for SB rings. If only Denver leadership understood this as well as the Cheatriots do.

slim
11-28-2017, 10:45 AM
You like that?!?!

Hawgdriver
11-28-2017, 11:03 AM
I think you and Cugel might be on to something...

Lemme see if I can distill it...

Good QBs win games, so get a good QB and you will win games.

May I retort?

Good QBs are a symptom of a winning organization, so build a winning organization.

Buff
11-28-2017, 11:06 AM
I think you and Cugel might be on to something...

Lemme see if I can distill it...

Good QBs win games, so get a good QB and you will win games.

May I retort?

Good QBs are a symptom of a winning organization, so build a winning organization.

You mean like compiling the 7th best winning percentage of all time and the 4th best home field advantage since 1990? That type of winning organization?

Broncoknight30
11-28-2017, 11:07 AM
I think you and Cugel might be on to something...

Lemme see if I can distill it...

Good QBs win games, so get a good QB and you will win games.

May I retort?

Good QBs are a symptom of a winning organization, so build a winning organization.

Which is almost impossible when any one player's contract does not allow a franchise to do it.

That is the point and it reflects in that list.

BigDaddyBronco
11-28-2017, 12:20 PM
Which is almost impossible when any one player's contract does not allow a franchise to do it.

That is the point and it reflects in that list.

I think we'll have to see if any of the guys on that list don't make it to another SB, which I doubt. Roethlisberger or Brees have a decent shot this year. Also how much does Brady make, $18 million a year? $3-4 million is like one decent player. The Patriots have had to make plenty of decisions on letting guys go early for salary cap reasons, they just have a great system and a HOF QB to keep it rolling along.

MOtorboat
11-28-2017, 12:31 PM
What is your low cost solution for quarterback?

FWIW, Over The Cap is projecting the Broncos to have as much as $35 million in cap space with the rollover, increase in cap and dead weight coming off. That's more than plenty to add a high-priced quarterback, and I make the argument that paying a quarterback what he's worth doesn't hamstring a roster.

Tned
11-28-2017, 12:46 PM
What is your low cost solution for quarterback?

FWIW, Over The Cap is projecting the Broncos to have as much as $35 million in cap space with the rollover, increase in cap and dead weight coming off. That's more than plenty to add a high-priced quarterback, and I make the argument that paying a quarterback what he's worth doesn't hamstring a roster.

The only fly in this ointment is next year the Broncos will have the sixth person on this list of highest paid QBs in the form of a LB.


Lions QB Matthew Stafford: $27 million
Raiders QB Derek Carr: $25 million
Colts QB Andrew Luck: $24.6 million
Saints QB Drew Brees: $24.3 million
Redskins QB Kirk Cousins: $23.9 million
Broncos LB Von Miller $22.4 million
Ravens QB Joe Flacco: $22.1 million
Packers QB Aaron Rodgers: $22 million
Seahawks QB Russell Wilson: $21.9 million
Steelers QB Ben Roethlisberger: $21.85 million
Cardinals QB Carson Palmer: $21 million; Giants QB Eli Manning: $21 million

MOtorboat
11-28-2017, 01:04 PM
The only fly in this ointment is next year the Broncos will have the sixth person on this list of highest paid QBs in the form of a LB.

2018 cap hits, and 2nd highest cap hit on the team:
Stafford $26.5m; T.J. Lang $10m; Golden Tate $9.3m (Projected $52m under the projected 2018 cap)
Carr $25m; Khalil Mack, $13.8m (two other players with cap hits more than $10.2m, under $14m)
Luck $24.4m; T.Y. Hilton, $13m (one other player with cap hits more than $10m, under by $83.9m)
Flacco $24.7m; Jimmy Smith $15.6m (two other players over $10.1m, under by $4m)
Rodgers $20.9m; Randall Cobb $12.75m (five other players with cap hits more than $9.9m, under by $34 million)
Wilson $23.7m; Bobby Wagner $13.6m (five other players with cap hits more than $9.7m, under by $8m)
Roethlisberger $23.2m; Antonio Brown $17.6m (five other players with cap hits more than $10m, over the projected cap)
Palmer $20.6m; Larry Fitzgerald $16.8m (three guys above $14m; two more over $9.7m, $17m under)

Brees and Cousins are free agents, pending franchise tag/extensions. The Redskins are under by $52m and the Saints are under by $32m.

I just don't think quarterback salaries handcuff a team that much. With the projected cap and the possible release of Talib, the Broncos would have more than enough to pay a quarterback the going rate, pay rookies and still be able to sign several free agents.

Tned
11-28-2017, 01:59 PM
2018 cap hits, and 2nd highest cap hit on the team:
Stafford $26.5m; T.J. Lang $10m; Golden Tate $9.3m (Projected $52m under the projected 2018 cap)
Carr $25m; Khalil Mack, $13.8m (two other players with cap hits more than $10.2m, under $14m)
Luck $24.4m; T.Y. Hilton, $13m (one other player with cap hits more than $10m, under by $83.9m)
Flacco $24.7m; Jimmy Smith $15.6m (two other players over $10.1m, under by $4m)
Rodgers $20.9m; Randall Cobb $12.75m (five other players with cap hits more than $9.9m, under by $34 million)
Wilson $23.7m; Bobby Wagner $13.6m (five other players with cap hits more than $9.7m, under by $8m)
Roethlisberger $23.2m; Antonio Brown $17.6m (five other players with cap hits more than $10m, over the projected cap)
Palmer $20.6m; Larry Fitzgerald $16.8m (three guys above $14m; two more over $9.7m, $17m under)

Brees and Cousins are free agents, pending franchise tag/extensions. The Redskins are under by $52m and the Saints are under by $32m.

I just don't think quarterback salaries handcuff a team that much. With the projected cap and the possible release of Talib, the Broncos would have more than enough to pay a quarterback the going rate, pay rookies and still be able to sign several free agents.

Let's play that out. If the Broncos could sign Cousins, Brees or Rivers for $25.6 a year (doubtful, he's expected to bring 30+, but with creative bonus numbers, let's say they do). That means QB & Von will be $50 million. That's $10 million higher than the highest combo you mentioned (Steelers) and about $15 million higher than the rest.

It's not no big deal with our LB is paid like Big Ben and then to expect to sign a free agent QB. Then, on top of that, the Broncos have 4 defensive players in the top 54 for '18 ($58 million), which is over double the average number of players teams have in the top 54 highest paid players. They make up for it by only having two players in the top 50 highest paid offensive players (DT and ES both near the bottom of that list).

Bottom line, the Broncos have a lot of money tied up in a few defensive players, and if you look at those four plus TD and ES, you are now at $70 million. Then add in $25 for a free agent QB, and you are bumping up against $100 million on 7 players.

That will leave about $70 million for the other 46 players (rookies and veterans). The median minimum salary on the roster will likely be 750k next year.

So, that's about $35 million if all 46 players were paid the league minimum. That's leaves you $35 million to cover any of the 46 players on the roster that aren't at the league minimum such as: Leary 9 mil, Roby 8.5, Watson 7.5 (if cut will cost 2.7 mil), Marshall 7, Stewart 6, CJ 4.5, Peko 4.2, McManus 3.5, Ray 2.9
Ok, so let's play this out further, we had $35 million for those 46 players, and above I've listed out the top 9 for next year. That totals $53.1 million. Back out the $750k minimum salary we already accounted for, and you are left with $46 million. If you cut Watson, you are at $42 million, or $7 million over the cap.

Now, you are $7 million over, and still have a significant number of those 38 remaining players that are going to make more than $750k. Let's say only 1/3 of them are over the league minimum and only by $500k. That's about another $7 million or so. So, now you are $14 million in the hole.

Yes, you can cut guys like Talib, Watson and Charles, but at a certain point you are going to need to bring in vets to replace them. It's not like we have a right tackle waiting in the wings, so we are probably going to need to sign a right tackle for Watson like money (he wasn't brought in as a bottom dollar vet).


Bottom line, the Broncos aren't going to be able to pay a LB and QB top tier QB dollars and also fill the other holes that exist in the team, and not only that, would need to create more holes in order to afford any "win now" free agent QB.

MOtorboat
11-28-2017, 02:10 PM
There are 28 players on the current roster that have cap hits of $790,000 or less in 2017. I don't see why that would be different next year.

I just remember back to the Peyton Manning signing and remember the screaming about how they could never sign any other free agent ever again and they'd be over the cap and could never have any wiggle room. Then Elway signed four massive free agents the next season.

I have faith the math would work.

Tned
11-28-2017, 02:36 PM
There are 28 players on the current roster that have cap hits of $790,000 or less in 2017. I don't see why that would be different next year.

I just remember back to the Peyton Manning signing and remember the screaming about how they could never sign any other free agent ever again and they'd be over the cap and could never have any wiggle room. Then Elway signed four massive free agents the next season.

I have faith the math would work.

Mathematics isn't faith. If you want to back into it from the $26 million cap space that OTC says we will have (not sure where you came up with $35, but even do it from there), then have a go. $4 million for rookies, that's $22 left. $25 for a QB. Now you are $3 million in the hole. Who are you cutting?

When the Broncos signed a $19 million Manning, they didn't have a $22 million LB. Think about the Von/Elway fight and the Broncos were also trying to sign Brock to $15 a year. After signing Von, they were scrambling to just get the rest of their squad in under the cap. How would they have managed that with $15 million to Brock and $19 (cap back then) to Von? They couldn't have. Now, you are suggesting that they can have $45-50 million tied up in a QB and LB and just have faith in the math.

:confused:

Rick
11-28-2017, 02:43 PM
I think CJ is gone (or back at very reduced price. probably gone.)

Watson gone or brought back at half that salary.

Stevenson gone.

Talib possibly gone.

That is a decent amount of cash freed up.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-28-2017, 02:47 PM
Mathematics isn't faith. If you want to back into it from the $26 million cap space that OTC says we will have (not sure where you came up with $35, but even do it from there), then have a go. $4 million for rookies, that's $22 left. $25 for a QB. Now you are $3 million in the hole. Who are you cutting?

When the Broncos signed a $19 million Manning, they didn't have a $22 million LB. Think about the Von/Elway fight and the Broncos were also trying to sign Brock to $15 a year. After signing Von, they were scrambling to just get the rest of their squad in under the cap. How would they have managed that with $15 million to Brock and $19 (cap back then) to Von? They couldn't have. Now, you are suggesting that they can have $45-50 million tied up in a QB and LB and just have faith in the math.

:confused:

Cap isn’t straight math. Just because a guy makes x per year doesn’t mean his cap hit is x.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-28-2017, 02:52 PM
Kirk Cousins is gonna look great in orange.

Yep.

Tned
11-28-2017, 02:58 PM
I think CJ is gone (or back at very reduced price. probably gone.)

Watson gone or brought back at half that salary.

Stevenson gone.

Talib possibly gone.

That is a decent amount of cash freed up.

Who's the RT and backup tackles? We don't have young guys capable of stepping in. There is a reason the Broncos paid Watson $8 million a year, and that's because it was, and still is, a major hole.

If both CJ and Charles are let go, then they likely need to sign a vet backup. Maybe they let Talib go, but that then leaves a major hole in the secondary as Talib, Roby and Harris are on the field a lot right now. I guess the next two games with his suspension will give us a preview.


Cap isn’t straight math. Just because a guy makes x per year doesn’t mean his cap hit is x.

Which is why the numbers I posted were their cap hits for 2018 (short of renegotiating) not their salaries. For instance, Marshall's salary next year is $5 million, but I listed him at $7 million, which is what his cap hit ($5 million salary + $2 million of his $10 million signing bonus) will be in '18.

There is no free lunch. You can't have two guys taking up $50 million of cap space, five more taking up the next $50 million and then field a decent team with what's left.

A lot of people keep talking about all the holes that need to be filled, but now we are making a contention that we can just cut our #1 CB, RT, RB and others to make room for a FA QB and not even worry about the holes we had before cutting those three players, not to mention now also filling the hole at CB and RT.

MOtorboat
11-28-2017, 03:03 PM
Mathematics isn't faith. If you want to back into it from the $26 million cap space that OTC says we will have (not sure where you came up with $35, but even do it from there), then have a go. $4 million for rookies, that's $22 left. $25 for a QB. Now you are $3 million in the hole. Who are you cutting?

When the Broncos signed a $19 million Manning, they didn't have a $22 million LB. Think about the Von/Elway fight and the Broncos were also trying to sign Brock to $15 a year. After signing Von, they were scrambling to just get the rest of their squad in under the cap. How would they have managed that with $15 million to Brock and $19 (cap back then) to Von? They couldn't have. Now, you are suggesting that they can have $45-50 million tied up in a QB and LB and just have faith in the math.

:confused:

Let me try to clarify then:

When the Broncos signed Manning, the argument was that they couldn't afford any free agents with his contract on the books. The next year they signed Wes Welker and the next year they signed DeMarcus Ware, Aqib Talib, Louis Vasquez and T.J. Ward.

Then the argument was that if they signed Thomas, they couldn't sign Miller. They signed both.

Now, the argument is they can't sign a quarterback because of Miller, and I don't think that's true. So, my argument is that I have faith in the math of the front office if they feel like signing a quarterback is the way forward.

Slick
11-28-2017, 03:08 PM
We'll see what that secondary looks like without him these next two games and then we'll see a lot less people saying let Talib go.

Tned
11-28-2017, 03:10 PM
We'll see what that secondary looks like without him these next two games and then we'll see a lot less people saying let Talib go.

He's a piece of shit (actually, that's not fair to shit), but he's our piece of shit and we are better with him (when he's not suspended.)

Buff
11-28-2017, 03:14 PM
He's a piece of shit (actually, that's not fair to shit), but he's our piece of shit and we are better with him (when he's not suspended.)

You're casting a lot of stones from your glass house this week.

Tned
11-28-2017, 03:17 PM
You're casting a lot of stones from your glass house this week.

I haven't ripped off any chains this week. I'm secure behind my silica panels.

Rick
11-28-2017, 03:25 PM
Who's the RT and backup tackles? We don't have young guys capable of stepping in. There is a reason the Broncos paid Watson $8 million a year, and that's because it was, and still is, a major hole.

If both CJ and Charles are let go, then they likely need to sign a vet backup. Maybe they let Talib go, but that then leaves a major hole in the secondary as Talib, Roby and Harris are on the field a lot right now. I guess the next two games with his suspension will give us a preview.



Which is why the numbers I posted were their cap hits for 2018 (short of renegotiating) not their salaries. For instance, Marshall's salary next year is $5 million, but I listed him at $7 million, which is what his cap hit ($5 million salary + $2 million of his $10 million signing bonus) will be in '18.

There is no free lunch. You can't have two guys taking up $50 million of cap space, five more taking up the next $50 million and then field a decent team with what's left.

A lot of people keep talking about all the holes that need to be filled, but now we are making a contention that we can just cut our #1 CB, RT, RB and others to make room for a FA QB and not even worry about the holes we had before cutting those three players, not to mention now also filling the hole at CB and RT.

They should move back a bit and draft a LT and move Bolles to right.

I would cut Watson unless he is willing to restructure. If he takes a cut, keep him and let him compete at RG or backup OT.

If Talib goes, move back into first using the extra picks from moving back from our top 5 pick and select a CB.

This is assuming Cousins was the guy...

If it is a Bradford/Smith/Brees kind of guy you need to use that top 5 on a QB.

Hawgdriver
11-28-2017, 03:47 PM
Which is almost impossible when any one player's contract does not allow a franchise to do it.

That is the point and it reflects in that list.

Ok, I gotcha now, I missed that point as you failed to include it in your original argument.

NightTrainLayne
11-28-2017, 04:03 PM
We'll see what that secondary looks like without him these next two games and then we'll see a lot less people saying let Talib go.

Broncos defense - Talib - Peko = Losing.


But we were losing anyways. #mathematics

Tned
11-28-2017, 04:07 PM
Broncos defense - Talib - Peko = Losing.


But we were losing anyways. #mathematics

I have #faith that we will win, even if it's bad for the draft.

dogfish
11-28-2017, 04:11 PM
so, what you're all saying is that it's best to draft a stud QB who's able to play at a high level quickly?

brilliant! i'm glad we had this discussion. . .


in all seriousness, the more i think about it, the more i think we're likely to approach it the way the bears did this year. . . sign a mid-tier vet who can be your transition QB for a year if need be while you groom a highly-drafted rook. . . think more like a case keenum, tyrod taylor, sam bradford, AJ mccarron type. . . with lynch looking fragile as well as lost, i just don't think we can or will pass on the opportunity to take a blue chip QB with our projected top ten pick. . . you don't get the chance that often, i expect JFE to jump on it. . .

Tned
11-28-2017, 04:15 PM
so, what you're all saying is that it's best to draft a stud QB who's able to play at a high level quickly?

brilliant! i'm glad we had this discussion. . .


in all seriousness, the more i think about it, the more i think we're likely to approach it the way the bears did this year. . . sign a mid-tier vet who can be your transition QB for a year if need be while you groom a highly-drafted rook. . . think more like a case keenum, tyrod taylor, sam bradford, AJ mccarron type. . . with lynch looking fragile as well as lost, i just don't think we can or will pass on the opportunity to take a blue chip QB with our projected top ten pick. . . you don't get the chance that often, i expect JFE to jump on it. . .

Like, say, a Jay Cutler?

Tned
11-28-2017, 04:17 PM
so, what you're all saying is that it's best to draft a stud QB who's able to play at a high level quickly?

brilliant! i'm glad we had this discussion. . .


in all seriousness, the more i think about it, the more i think we're likely to approach it the way the bears did this year. . . sign a mid-tier vet who can be your transition QB for a year if need be while you groom a highly-drafted rook. . . think more like a case keenum, tyrod taylor, sam bradford, AJ mccarron type. . . with lynch looking fragile as well as lost, i just don't think we can or will pass on the opportunity to take a blue chip QB with our projected top ten pick. . . you don't get the chance that often, i expect JFE to jump on it. . .

Next years' UFAs.

Drew Brees
Kirk Cousins
Sam Bradford
Jay Cutler
Josh McCown
Drew Stanton
Chad Henne
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Derek Anderson
Mark Sanchez
Case Keenum
Matt Moore
Scott Tolzien
Teddy Bridgewater
Geno Smith
Kellen Clemens
Tyler Bray
Chase Daniel
Joe Webb
Blaine Gabbert
Jimmy Garoppolo
Austin Davis
E.J. Manuel
Brock Osweiler
Brandon Weeden
T.J. Yates
Matt Barkley
David Fales
Tom Savage

Buff
11-28-2017, 04:19 PM
so, what you're all saying is that it's best to draft a stud QB who's able to play at a high level quickly?

brilliant! i'm glad we had this discussion. . .


in all seriousness, the more i think about it, the more i think we're likely to approach it the way the bears did this year. . . sign a mid-tier vet who can be your transition QB for a year if need be while you groom a highly-drafted rook. . . think more like a case keenum, tyrod taylor, sam bradford, AJ mccarron type. . . with lynch looking fragile as well as lost, i just don't think we can or will pass on the opportunity to take a blue chip QB with our projected top ten pick. . . you don't get the chance that often, i expect JFE to jump on it. . .

JFE was in full on panic mode when he drafted Lynch, and our QB situation is about 10x more dire now... He's going to move heaven and earth to bring in a QB at the top of the depth chart this offseason...

That said - Mike Glennon was a total waste of money for Chicago this year. Plus I think it's actually pretty likely that both Siemian and Lynch are still on the team going into camp next year. So we should either draft the guy and start him ASAP, or we should sign a free agent who can be the starter... We don't need to bring in anyone who is basically on par with Siemian as an above average #2, below average #1. Let him be the bridge if we need one.

MOtorboat
11-28-2017, 04:19 PM
#gargleforDarnold

VonDoom
11-28-2017, 04:25 PM
so, what you're all saying is that it's best to draft a stud QB who's able to play at a high level quickly?

brilliant! i'm glad we had this discussion. . .


in all seriousness, the more i think about it, the more i think we're likely to approach it the way the bears did this year. . . sign a mid-tier vet who can be your transition QB for a year if need be while you groom a highly-drafted rook. . . think more like a case keenum, tyrod taylor, sam bradford, AJ mccarron type. . . with lynch looking fragile as well as lost, i just don't think we can or will pass on the opportunity to take a blue chip QB with our projected top ten pick. . . you don't get the chance that often, i expect JFE to jump on it. . .

I've been saying for a while that we need to "overspend" to get a QB - get a free agent AND get one high in the draft. Let it sort itself out in training camp. Tyrod Taylor was my guess for the FA, actually, assuming he's released (and it sure seems like he will be).

The Bears did this and so far haven't had success, though maybe Trubisky will be good (anyone could have told them that Glennon wasn't, but that's another story). The Eagles did this with Bradford (and Daniel) and then Wentz and it's worked out for them. Can't put all our eggs in one basket but we need to quickly improve that position, whatever it takes.

FanInAZ
11-28-2017, 10:05 PM
4 of the 5 top 5 have never reached a SB, 2 have never won a playoff game & 1 has yet reached the playoffs (although he would've if it weren't for his season ending injury last year when the Raiders were running away with the division).

Broncoknight30
11-28-2017, 10:36 PM
Here is the situation as I see it in regards to that list and the dubious choices the Broncos have. If Elway goes out and lands a high priced FA like a Brees or Cousins, then the Broncos will not realistically be able to improve the OL AND have a championship defense. Cannot happen.

So that means they would need to be lucky enough to DRAFT a rookie. A rookie like a Wentz (who is under a rookie cap) and is great. Then, Elway will be able to solidify the line...AND keep key people on defense.

That is what needs to happen. Bottom line for me is I have developed an authentic hatred for the hard cap. The parity the NFL wants is actually a joke.

Look around the league. How many teams are in similar scenarios as the Broncos? A whole lot of them.

Tned
11-28-2017, 11:02 PM
Here is the situation as I see it in regards to that list and the dubious choices the Broncos have. If Elway goes out and lands a high priced FA like a Brees or Cousins, then the Broncos will not realistically be able to improve the OL AND have a championship defense. Cannot happen.

So that means they would need to be lucky enough to DRAFT a rookie. A rookie like a Wentz (who is under a rookie cap) and is great. Then, Elway will be able to solidify the line...AND keep key people on defense.

That is what needs to happen. Bottom line for me is I have developed an authentic hatred for the hard cap. The parity the NFL wants is actually a joke.

Look around the league. How many teams are in similar scenarios as the Broncos? A whole lot of them.

It prevents a team like the Cowboys or other big market, rich teams from buying championships.

Broncoknight30
11-28-2017, 11:05 PM
Let's play that out. If the Broncos could sign Cousins, Brees or Rivers for $25.6 a year (doubtful, he's expected to bring 30+, but with creative bonus numbers, let's say they do). That means QB & Von will be $50 million. That's $10 million higher than the highest combo you mentioned (Steelers) and about $15 million higher than the rest.

It's not no big deal with our LB is paid like Big Ben and then to expect to sign a free agent QB. Then, on top of that, the Broncos have 4 defensive players in the top 54 for '18 ($58 million), which is over double the average number of players teams have in the top 54 highest paid players. They make up for it by only having two players in the top 50 highest paid offensive players (DT and ES both near the bottom of that list).

Bottom line, the Broncos have a lot of money tied up in a few defensive players, and if you look at those four plus TD and ES, you are now at $70 million. Then add in $25 for a free agent QB, and you are bumping up against $100 million on 7 players.

That will leave about $70 million for the other 46 players (rookies and veterans). The median minimum salary on the roster will likely be 750k next year.

So, that's about $35 million if all 46 players were paid the league minimum. That's leaves you $35 million to cover any of the 46 players on the roster that aren't at the league minimum such as: Leary 9 mil, Roby 8.5, Watson 7.5 (if cut will cost 2.7 mil), Marshall 7, Stewart 6, CJ 4.5, Peko 4.2, McManus 3.5, Ray 2.9
Ok, so let's play this out further, we had $35 million for those 46 players, and above I've listed out the top 9 for next year. That totals $53.1 million. Back out the $750k minimum salary we already accounted for, and you are left with $46 million. If you cut Watson, you are at $42 million, or $7 million over the cap.

Now, you are $7 million over, and still have a significant number of those 38 remaining players that are going to make more than $750k. Let's say only 1/3 of them are over the league minimum and only by $500k. That's about another $7 million or so. So, now you are $14 million in the hole.

Yes, you can cut guys like Talib, Watson and Charles, but at a certain point you are going to need to bring in vets to replace them. It's not like we have a right tackle waiting in the wings, so we are probably going to need to sign a right tackle for Watson like money (he wasn't brought in as a bottom dollar vet).


Bottom line, the Broncos aren't going to be able to pay a LB and QB top tier QB dollars and also fill the other holes that exist in the team, and not only that, would need to create more holes in order to afford any "win now" free agent QB.

Yeap...

Makes you tighten your jaws doesn't it? I honestly think the biggest reason NFL ratings are down is the hard cap that hamstrings franchises and forces them to field pure shit on the field.

I know I sound like I am pouting, and that is because I am. The NFL pretty much sucks.

Broncoknight30
11-28-2017, 11:12 PM
It prevents a team like the Cowboys or other big market, rich teams from buying championships.

I am not saying a cap isnt good. Its the hard cap that bothers me. I am sick of the scenario punishing franchises for drafting and developing players. When i say punishing franchises, I am referring to the fans.

A softer cap would prevent franchises like the cowboys etc from buying championships, but will allow franchises to pay their key players without it counting against the cap. That means a situation that would MOTIVATE players to stay with the teams that drafted them.

Not for nothing, but the Broncos were a very successful franhcise before the cap.

Hawgdriver
11-28-2017, 11:26 PM
You mean like compiling the 7th best winning percentage of all time and the 4th best home field advantage since 1990? That type of winning organization?

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/BNTHKr1Ho2MF-7pO6c6Jk29Alrw=/0x0:3072x2112/1200x800/filters:focal(1340x400:1830x890)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/56071221/329254.0.jpg

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-29-2017, 01:36 AM
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/BNTHKr1Ho2MF-7pO6c6Jk29Alrw=/0x0:3072x2112/1200x800/filters:focal(1340x400:1830x890)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/56071221/329254.0.jpg

Freak’n-a boss.

Northman
11-29-2017, 05:57 AM
Point being there were other key factors to all of those teams.


There are always key factors to teams winning the SB. Even when JE finally got it done the Broncos had a top 5 defense and great ST's. You can try to crunch numbers all day long but you cant ignore the fact that out of the past SB's there is still only a handful of names that pop up on the regular. When it gets to winning the SB it takes a certain about of luck, talent, staying healthy, good defense, good ST's, and at least a well balanced offense. But it has also shown dating back to the 80's that it takes an elite QB to lead that team, at least if you plan on winning multiple championships.

The only problem with what we seem to be seeing now with the QB position is that there dont seem to be any younger QB's that quite stand out like the Brady's, Bree's, or Rodgers. So once guys like Brady are gone its going to be interesting to see who the next "great" QB or QB's will be. My guess is as it stands now we will see more random teams winning SB's because there wont be any real difference makers at the QB position anymore. Dont know if that is bad or good for the league but i doubt we see anything like we see with Brady currently.

Broncoknight30
11-29-2017, 06:13 AM
There are always key factors to teams winning the SB. Even when JE finally got it done the Broncos had a top 5 defense and great ST's. You can try to crunch numbers all day long but you cant ignore the fact that out of the past SB's there is still only a handful of names that pop up on the regular. When it gets to winning the SB it takes a certain about of luck, talent, staying healthy, good defense, good ST's, and at least a well balanced offense. But it has also shown dating back to the 80's that it takes an elite QB to lead that team, at least if you plan on winning multiple championships.

The only problem with what we seem to be seeing now with the QB position is that there dont seem to be any younger QB's that quite stand out like the Brady's, Bree's, or Rodgers. So once guys like Brady are gone its going to be interesting to see who the next "great" QB or QB's will be. My guess is as it stands now we will see more random teams winning SB's because there wont be any real difference makers at the QB position anymore. Dont know if that is bad or good for the league but i doubt we see anything like we see with Brady currently.

Well, Wentz certainly does stand out. A few others, but bye and large it is the veterans. I was just asking which one of those top 10 salary QBs have even been to a SB since being paid top dollar?

Even when they did win it, what were the other factors that contributed? Like the Packers seven years ago. Look at their defensive stats that year. They were ranked in the top 5 and I seem to remember them only giving up 15 points per game. Then, Rodgers got paid and they have not been able to field a defense that good since. Is that Rodgers salary a factor?

How about since Brees got paid. They are having a solid season this year, but it has been a while. Not sure it is a coincidence that they happen to be far more balanced this year than they have been in years. BTW, not for nothing, but they did have the 6th rushing offense in 2009 when they did win it. That is a different issue.

How about Flacco? They win it in 2012, they pay him big money. They had to get rid of 7 players. They have been ordinary since. Kirk Cousins is getting paid top dollar. He is great right? They have a losing record this year? I think they do.

Then there are the other factors. Little subtle ones, like Roethlisberger having a 22 rating in that super bowl against the Seahawks and the Steelers having the number one defense in the league.

How about Brady's first 3 SBs, where it was the Pats defenses that were dominant. Especially the one that shut down the greatest show on turf. Brady, in those years they won it, he did not pass for 3000 yards or 30TDs.

Plus, Brady is really not a factor since he is the 17th highest paid QB. I think Osweiler gets paid more than him. :(

BigDaddyBronco
11-29-2017, 09:10 AM
Maybe Von will pull a Brady and restructure his deal....