Tanking--worth it?

[Hawgdriver]

I don't think tanking is worth it this season. You only tank if there is a lone player worth it. A QB. There are two names when it comes to top of the draft board QBs, Darnold and Rosen, and really it's probably just Rosen. He's not worth it.

So if you lose out and pick #2 or #3 overall, you probably still won't get the guy unless you sell your soul like Chicago did with SF this year.

I say you trust the process, build a winning culture, try to win every game. Until you get a winning staff and GM in place, all this tanking business is a pipe dream. I'd rather see the FO and coaching staff get their act together and win games.

[Nomad]

I like winning.

[Tned]

It's like better than losing -- Nuke Laloosh.

[BroncoWave]

Flat out trying to lose? No. Playing the young guys and seeing what happens? Definitely.

[spikerman]

Meh, tank it. Even if you don’t think there’s a player worth drafting that high you have better trade bait to collect more picks.

[Buff]

Even if we were to tank - which we absolutely should... The players should still try to win every game. The trick is in saddling them with so little talent that they can't win.

Besides, players wouldn't and shouldn't agree to tanking as they are trying to put solid performance on film for their next contract, which may or may not be with the Broncos. So it's purely a front office/coaching strategy...

The other problem is that a first year Head Coach isn't going to try and throw games unless he has a ton of job security, which by definition no first year head coach has.

That said - we have absolutely nothing to gain from winning games this year, so from a front office standpoint they should be doing whatever maneuvering possible to assure a higher slot. But I just don't think the NFL is making those types of analytical decisions at the level that the NBA is.

[BroncoWave]

Even if we were to tank - which we absolutely should... The players should still try to win every game. The trick is in saddling them with so little talent that they can't win.

Besides, players wouldn't and shouldn't agree to tanking as they are trying to put solid performance on film for their next contract, which may or may not be with the Broncos. So it's purely a front office/coaching strategy...

The other problem is that a first year Head Coach isn't going to try and throw games unless he has a ton of job security, which by definition no first year head coach has.

That said - we have absolutely nothing to gain from winning games this year, so from a front office standpoint they should be doing whatever maneuvering possible to assure a higher slot. But I just don't think the NFL is making those types of analytical decisions at the level that the NBA is.

The one reason it's harder to justify tanking in the NFL as compared to the NBA is because of the impact any one player can make. In the NBA, one star player can make your franchise. So tanking is absolutely the best strategy to get that one guy. In the NFL, unless it's a once in a generation QB, that's probably not going to happen. And even with that type of QB, he could still get ruined behind a bad o-line. Most years, there just isn't that type of player in the draft to justify tanking in the NFL.

Then you have to consider the parity in both leagues. In the NBA, tanking to get a superstar is really the only way to get from the bottom to the top. In the NFL, you can make that jump much more realistically without picking in the top 5 each year. And it's not like our cupboard is bare right now. We have some good pieces.

[Tned]

The one reason it's harder to justify tanking in the NFL as compared to the NBA is because of the impact any one player can make. In the NBA, one star player can make your franchise. So tanking is absolutely the best strategy to get that one guy. In the NFL, unless it's a once in a generation QB, that's probably not going to happen. And even with that type of QB, he could still get ruined behind a bad o-line. Most years, there just isn't that type of player in the draft to justify tanking in the NFL.

Then you have to consider the parity in both leagues. In the NBA, tanking to get a superstar is really the only way to get from the bottom to the top. In the NFL, you can make that jump much more realistically without picking in the top 5 each year. And it's not like our cupboard is bare right now. We have some good pieces.

This ^

The success rate on first round QBs is abysmal. Real, top-five blue chip offensive linemen are a better bet, but I'm not sure how many of them there are. While we all want a franchise QB, what the team desperately needs is a solid O-line.

[Buff]

The one reason it's harder to justify tanking in the NFL as compared to the NBA is because of the impact any one player can make. In the NBA, one star player can make your franchise. So tanking is absolutely the best strategy to get that one guy. In the NFL, unless it's a once in a generation QB, that's probably not going to happen. And even with that type of QB, he could still get ruined behind a bad o-line. Most years, there just isn't that type of player in the draft to justify tanking in the NFL.

Then you have to consider the parity in both leagues. In the NBA, tanking to get a superstar is really the only way to get from the bottom to the top. In the NFL, you can make that jump much more realistically without picking in the top 5 each year. And it's not like our cupboard is bare right now. We have some good pieces.

But I think you guys are framing this as though it is some multi-year strategy akin to the Philly 76ers or the Cleveland Browns... In which case I agree with you - it's too inexact and the upside is not assured...

But in a lost season where you've already lost 8 games, you absolutely tank the 2nd half of the season as there is no upside in winning games.

[BroncoWave]

This ^

The success rate on first round QBs is abysmal. Real, top-five blue chip offensive linemen are a better bet, but I'm not sure how many of them there are. While we all want a franchise QB, what the team desperately needs is a solid O-line.

Yep. I mean, look at Andrew Luck. He's that once in a generation guy, but that franchise has basically ruined him now. You just can't bank on tanking in the NFL and getting that type of player who will single handedly carry you to titles. Just doesn't happen in this sport like it does the NBA.

[BroncoWave]

But I think you guys are framing this as though it is some multi-year strategy akin to the Philly 76ers or the Cleveland Browns... In which case I agree with you - it's too inexact and the upside is not assured...

But in a lost season where you've already lost 8 games, you absolutely tank the 2nd half of the season as there is no upside in winning games.

Agreed, which is why I said we should be playing as many young guys as possible the rest of the way.

[OrangeHoof]

Texans had #1 overall selection three times in a decade. They drafted David Carr, Mario Williams and Jadaveon Clowney. Worth it?

[Hawgdriver]

But in a lost season where you've already lost 8 games, you absolutely tank the 2nd half of the season as there is no upside in winning games.

The upside is developing week-in-week-out winning ways at the coaching staff level.

We focus on our personnel, but the delta between picking 3/4th and picking 8th/12th isn't that great.

And I get Wave's point about evaluating/developing younger players by giving them more snaps.

But we also need to 'develop' our staff 'personnel' and see if they are worth keeping.

Or has the entire board already mentally moved on from VJ and I missed the memo?

[Buff]

Texans had #1 overall selection three times in a decade. They drafted David Carr, Mario Williams and Jadaveon Clowney. Worth it?

We've had one Top 5 pick in 25 years and came away with a Super Bowl MVP and future HOFer. So yes?

[Buff]

The upside is developing week-in-week-out winning ways at the coaching staff level.

We focus on our personnel, but the delta between picking 3/4th and picking 8th/12th isn't that great.

And I get Wave's point about evaluating/developing younger players by giving them more snaps.

But we also need to 'develop' our staff 'personnel' and see if they are worth keeping.

Or has the entire board already mentally moved on from VJ and I missed the memo?

1.) VJ is a dead man walking. He gone.
2.) I'm not sure how much stock I put in these hard-to-define intangibles like "build winning culture". If we wanted to do that, we shouldn't have lost 7 in a row.
3.) You are probably right that the difference between 3 and 8 or 4 and 12 isn't THAT great... But IMO that tangible draft position gain is more of a reward than the "build winning culture" which may or may not actually be a thing when guys are playing out the string and then half the roster turns over in the off season.

[BroncoWave]

We've had one Top 5 pick in 25 years and came away with a Super Bowl MVP and future HOFer. So yes?

That's an outlier though. Even as far as top 5 picks go, most don't have THAT kind of career.

[MasterShake]

I’m not saying Tank the season, but if we happen to lose while seeing who is worth keeping I have no problem with that. Just don’t get blown out or shutout. 21-14 was perfect.

[Buff]

That's an outlier though. Even as far as top 5 picks go, most don't have THAT kind of career.

Of course it is - I was just illustrating that the anecdotal game goes both ways.

[Hawgdriver]

2.) I'm not sure how much stock I put in these hard-to-define intangibles like "build winning culture". If we wanted to do that, we shouldn't have lost 7 in a row.

Nearly every 1st year HC worth a damn had a bad first season. Even BB wasn't BB overnight. VJ has looked terribad this season, but these disasters can be teachable moments.

This is what I'm telling myself to avoid the pain that comes when I think we have to blow up staff again. This time with no Peyton Manning. Or with no killer defense. With only a pocketful of Elway hope.

Because if VJ doesn't work, it means our GM can't pick QBs or HCs...

[Hawgdriver]

Take that back...Fox and Kube were great selections.

[Timmy!]

Put the kids in, IR any half significant injury. Play to win and let 13 & 17 audition for next year's backup QB job. Likely catch a win or two. 5-11, draft 5thish.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

The good news is, if our offense and special teams continue to suck we won’t have to tank. The only winnable game left will be the Colts

[Cugel]

Even if we were to tank - which we absolutely should... The players should still try to win every game. The trick is in saddling them with so little talent that they can't win.

Besides, players wouldn't and shouldn't agree to tanking as they are trying to put solid performance on film for their next contract, which may or may not be with the Broncos. So it's purely a front office/coaching strategy...

The other problem is that a first year Head Coach isn't going to try and throw games unless he has a ton of job security, which by definition no first year head coach has.

That said - we have absolutely nothing to gain from winning games this year, so from a front office standpoint they should be doing whatever maneuvering possible to assure a higher slot. But I just don't think the NFL is making those types of analytical decisions at the level that the NBA is.

The difference between winning a SB championship and being an also-ran is having an elite QB.

The Broncos do not have an elite QB. Some super duper expert posters know exactly whether any of the QBs in the draft will become an elite NFL QB and so conclude that Denver should not try and get one of them.

Fortunately for the Broncos these fans are not in charge of the team. Instead Elway will do what ever single other NFL team does. IF they don't have a franchise QB, they draft one, usually in the first round, and often in the top 10. About 1/2 of these QBs will fail, as will almost every single QB drafted in the 2nd or later rounds.

But, success in the NFL is so dependent on having an elite QB that if a team doesn't have one they have zero chance in the long term. Short term success is possible as the Broncos proved in 2015, but no team can win multiple championships without an elite QB.

The problem is that the Broncos, having won the SB in 2015 tried to replicate that success with Trevor Siemian at QB. That was never going to work. Paxton was supposed to be the Franchise QB but he hasn't been able to get on the field until now and we're seeing why as soon as he does.

So, it's back to the draft the Broncos must go. This is no longer a championship team that is just lacking a QB. They are lacking an interior pass-rusher, 2 ILBs who can cover TEs, and a CB to replace Talib who is unlikely to be back.

And the offense is lacking absolutely everything, except Emmanuel Sanders and Ron Leary.

So, they need a QB, a RT, a RG, a TE, a couple of RBs who can catch passes as well, and a slot WR.

By my count they need at least 9 new starters and possibly more. You will see that much turnover in the off-season as they dump salary and start rebuilding with new younger players.

The higher the draft picks, the better. And if that means losing every remaining game, then they will need to lose almost every game. They can't win with this roster anyway.

So, they might as well rebuild.

[Cugel]

The good news is, if our offense and special teams continue to suck we won’t have to tank. The only winnable game left will be the Colts

That is a road game though and they haven't been able to win any road games this year. Not many home ones either. But, it doesn't look like this team can go on the road and beat anybody.

[topscribe]

I will never, ever root for the Denver Broncos to lose a game. Ever. I don't care what the circumstances are.

[topscribe]

Nearly every 1st year HC worth a damn had a bad first season. Even BB wasn't BB overnight. VJ has looked terribad this season, but these disasters can be teachable moments.

This is what I'm telling myself to avoid the pain that comes when I think we have to blow up staff again. This time with no Peyton Manning. Or with no killer defense. With only a pocketful of Elway hope.

Because if VJ doesn't work, it means our GM can't pick QBs or HCs...
Elway chose Peyton Manning . . .

[MOtorboat]

I don't think there's any need to tank. Teams in the NFL go up and down every year, at a far greater deviation than other sports. Baseball and NBA teams tank because there really is a five-year process. The average NFL player doesn't even last three years, and unless your talent evaluators really blow, you can get a quality, game-changing player anywhere in the first round, especially in the Top 10.

[sneakers]

The one reason it's harder to justify tanking in the NFL as compared to the NBA is because of the impact any one player can make. In the NBA, one star player can make your franchise. So tanking is absolutely the best strategy to get that one guy. In the NFL, unless it's a once in a generation QB, that's probably not going to happen. And even with that type of QB, he could still get ruined behind a bad o-line. Most years, there just isn't that type of player in the draft to justify tanking in the NFL.

Then you have to consider the parity in both leagues. In the NBA, tanking to get a superstar is really the only way to get from the bottom to the top. In the NFL, you can make that jump much more realistically without picking in the top 5 each year. And it's not like our cupboard is bare right now. We have some good pieces.

The fact that NBA contracts are guaranteed also helps

[Hawgdriver]

Winning is not some magical thing that just happens when you accumulate enough high draft picks and play the QB lottery often enough.

It's the trait of a system.

If VJ and staff are toast, then fine. Each win is counterproductive except for the satisfaction that comes from winning a regular season game with no hope of a championship. Improve roster quality for future years.

But if VJ and staff still have an opportunity to build a dynasty in Denver, they need to correct their mistakes and find their formula. That is something requires an obsessive desire to win.

I don't see it happening with this head coach, but it's what I'd prefer to see.

[Hawgdriver]

Elway chose Peyton Manning . . .

Good point. Some notable evidence of the ability to find the right components, let's not react too strongly to recent developments.

[Hawgdriver]

The difference between winning a SB championship and being an also-ran is having an elite QB.

The Broncos do not have an elite QB. Some super duper expert posters know exactly whether any of the QBs in the draft will become an elite NFL QB and so conclude that Denver should not try and get one of them.

Fortunately for the Broncos these fans are not in charge of the team. Instead Elway will do what ever single other NFL team does. IF they don't have a franchise QB, they draft one, usually in the first round, and often in the top 10. About 1/2 of these QBs will fail, as will almost every single QB drafted in the 2nd or later rounds.

But, success in the NFL is so dependent on having an elite QB that if a team doesn't have one they have zero chance in the long term. Short term success is possible as the Broncos proved in 2015, but no team can win multiple championships without an elite QB.

The problem is that the Broncos, having won the SB in 2015 tried to replicate that success with Trevor Siemian at QB. That was never going to work. Paxton was supposed to be the Franchise QB but he hasn't been able to get on the field until now and we're seeing why as soon as he does.

So, it's back to the draft the Broncos must go. This is no longer a championship team that is just lacking a QB. They are lacking an interior pass-rusher, 2 ILBs who can cover TEs, and a CB to replace Talib who is unlikely to be back.

And the offense is lacking absolutely everything, except Emmanuel Sanders and Ron Leary.

So, they need a QB, a RT, a RG, a TE, a couple of RBs who can catch passes as well, and a slot WR.

By my count they need at least 9 new starters and possibly more. You will see that much turnover in the off-season as they dump salary and start rebuilding with new younger players.

The higher the draft picks, the better. And if that means losing every remaining game, then they will need to lose almost every game. They can't win with this roster anyway.

So, they might as well rebuild.

386 words to say the Broncos need a winning QB?

[MOtorboat]

Good point. Some notable evidence of the ability to find the right components, let's not react too strongly to recent developments.

Elway has hit on most free agents. He has not been able to hit on draft picks on offense. It's a glaring organizational hole at this point. It's the one flaw, and two years post-Manning it's now fairly evident and the results can be seen on the field. I still like Bolles and the receivers. Past that, they need upgrades everywhere. Quarterback is most notable.

[ShaneFalco]

I don't think tanking is worth it this season. You only tank if there is a lone player worth it. A QB. There are two names when it comes to top of the draft board QBs, Darnold and Rosen, and really it's probably just Rosen. He's not worth it.

So if you lose out and pick #2 or #3 overall, you probably still won't get the guy unless you sell your soul like Chicago did with SF this year.

I say you trust the process, build a winning culture, try to win every game. Until you get a winning staff and GM in place, all this tanking business is a pipe dream. I'd rather see the FO and coaching staff get their act together and win games.

ive seen what a losing culture does to a franchise.

never wish it on your worst enemies.

https://images.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1425160685ra/13855672.gif

[topscribe]

Elway has hit on most free agents. He has not been able to hit on draft picks on offense. It's a glaring organizational hole at this point. It's the one flaw, and two years post-Manning it's now fairly evident and the results can be seen on the field. I still like Bolles and the receivers. Past that, they need upgrades everywhere. Quarterback is most notable.
Well, Elway has had some misses in the drafts, but his record does not compare with others as
unfavorably as one might expect. A poster over at MHR put together an article showing this (https://www.milehighreport.com/2017/11/24/16696534/thanks-to-grizzbronc-for-the-idea-comparing-elways-drafts-to-experts). An
interesting read.

BTW, Virgil Green was a good pick for where he was selected, and don't forget Paradis and Julius
Thomas who were steals where they were selected. And Booker could still turn out fairly decent.

[MOtorboat]

Well, Elway has had some misses in the drafts, but his record does not compare with others as
unfavorably as one might expect. A poster over at MHR put together an article showing this (https://www.milehighreport.com/2017/11/24/16696534/thanks-to-grizzbronc-for-the-idea-comparing-elways-drafts-to-experts). An
interesting read.

BTW, Virgil Green was a good pick for where he was selected, and don't forget Paradis and Julius
Thomas who were steals where they were selected. And Booker could still turn out fairly decent.

I think Orlando Franklin was also not as bad as many people here thought. But four selections on offense - two of which aren't on the team anymore - in seven drafts isn't good.

Brock Osweiler, Ronnie Hillman (who I'd argue served his purpose, but wasn't necessarily a great pick), Phillip Blake, Monte Ball, Tavarres King, Vinston Painter, Zac Dysert, Cody Latimer, Ty Sambrailo, Paxton Lynch, Connor McGovern.

Jury still out on Max Garcia and Booker, and I think Trevor Siemian was a great pick, especially in terms of value/selection position. Unfortunately, finding a backup quarterback in round 7 doesn't really make up for finding two duds in the first/second.

I'll not judge this year's class yet, but it's not looking good. The third round receiver can't find a spot on a team that desperately needs a wide receiver past the second option. The returnman has been benched, the running back hasn't seen the field. Bolles is the only one that looks OK.

It's an organizational issue and you can see the results on the field.

[dogfish]

Elway chose Peyton Manning . . .

so did like 25 other GMs that year. . . much more important was that peyton chose us. . .


hawg, i don't think we gotta tank this year, meng. . . we don't have to try to lose, we've been doing just fine as it is. . . although, if lynch is out, it might not hurt to get mckenzie back in there. . . :heh:

[Northman]

Tanking is fine, the last time we tanked we got Von Miller. Even if you are not sold on a QB there are other positions that can help this team immensely and the higher the prospect the better the talent that can be taken. Its also not mutually exclusive, you can try to win games and still tank. I mean, we tried to beat the Raiders and still lost so im ok with losing by 7 or less points while tanking for a better draft pick.

[BroncoWave]

Elway chose Peyton Manning . . .

As did every other GM in the league that year that needed a QB. I don't think wanting Peyton Manning proves that Elway can evaluate QBs. :lol:

[BroncoWave]

That would be like saying Cleveland's GM is a great talent evaluator because he signed LeBron James. It's not exactly going out on a limb to sign the best player in the league.

(This isn't a knock on Elway at all, just saying that signing a HoF QB doesn't exactly prove he's a great QB evaluator. It just proves he isn't a total idiot.)

[EastCoastBronco]

We're going to tank.
I just wish we would do it "kicking and screaming" instead of the way we are doing it now.
A great deal of our kicking and screaming left when Wade tipped out the door.

[Nomad]

Is it the system, or the players that make a great team?

[MasterShake]

Is it the system, or the players that make a great team?

If you look at the gold standard right now which is the New Eng... NEW ENG... *cough* **** it hurts to say that... if you look at the New England Patriots it is a combination of both. They have a system and they find players that work in that system. Aside from Brady and a few others, I wouldn't call the Patriots roster great but they have a system that demands that their players adapt. They can be a run first team one week, then a pass happy fireworks show the next. They not only have players that can adjust and "do their jobs", but also players that buy into the system because it has been working for over a decade now. The Patriots aren't reactive, they cut players after they use them and cycle in new ones without blinking an eye. Even with Brady out they still manage to win on a consistent basis because they can be as complex or as simple as they need to be.

I don't think you can copy that formula overnight, but I just wish the Broncos had a plan and stuck with it. QB competitions and coaching changes don't help that plan at all. Whoever the QB is next year, start by building an identity around that QB (like we did for Manning his first few years) then adjust as needed (like we did for Manning his last few years). Teams like the Eagles and Rams are enjoying great seasons because they establish an identity and stick with it. That would be a GREAT place to start.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Did anyone ever consider that the players might tank for new coaches? ;)

It seemed like the Giants players were doing just that early on.

[BeefStew25]

Did anyone ever consider that the players might tank for new coaches? ;)

It seemed like the Giants players were doing just that early on.

And then they have bad tape and will cease being employed.

[BeefStew25]

Losing sucks and after awhile you get used to it. It can’t become the culture. Even being average sucks. Look at the dolphins or jets etc.

[BigDaddyBronco]

If you look at the gold standard right now which is the New Eng... NEW ENG... *cough* **** it hurts to say that... if you look at the New England Patriots it is a combination of both. They have a system and they find players that work in that system. Aside from Brady and a few others, I wouldn't call the Patriots roster great but they have a system that demands that their players adapt. They can be a run first team one week, then a pass happy fireworks show the next. They not only have players that can adjust and "do their jobs", but also players that buy into the system because it has been working for over a decade now. The Patriots aren't reactive, they cut players after they use them and cycle in new ones without blinking an eye. Even with Brady out they still manage to win on a consistent basis because they can be as complex or as simple as they need to be.

I don't think you can copy that formula overnight, but I just wish the Broncos had a plan and stuck with it. QB competitions and coaching changes don't help that plan at all. Whoever the QB is next year, start by building an identity around that QB (like we did for Manning his first few years) then adjust as needed (like we did for Manning his last few years). Teams like the Eagles and Rams are enjoying great seasons because they establish an identity and stick with it. That would be a GREAT place to start.

I think the Steelers and maybe the Ravens are also good examples of this. They have an idea of what they want in players and draft them for their systems. Then the coaches might work around the edges to change the balance of the attack, more throwing vs. the run, etc. but they still have the big Oline, fast WR's, and RB's that can carry the load when the weather gets bad. Same on defense with getting the guys that fit the 3-4 with stopping the run and pass rush being the primary focus.

We used to do this in Denver when Shanny was here with the guys drafted for the West Coast Offense. Certain type of RB's, OLine, WR's, etc. It worked for years. It only stopped working when our QB play dropped off and our OLine was to light to work on the goal line or short yardage situations.

We have an identity on defense and can draft for it, but what is the identity on offense?

[Buff]

I don't think the arguments against tanking in this thread are very convincing... So far I've heard basically 2 arguments:

1.) The "slippery slope" argument... Which states that if you lose too much then that becomes your identity. To which I'd reply - you think one season is going to undo decades of a winning culture? Also, after losing 7 in a row, if we bang out a few wins down the stretch suddenly we're feeling good and well positioned for next year? Don't buy it.

2.) Moving up a few draft slots is no guarantee of success. Which is true... But I'd much rather take my chances at the higher slot than not, all things being equal.

My main arguments for tanking are - it's already a lost season, the coaching staff has already lost the team, we're not talking about a multi-year tanking strategy. So just play all the young guys and sit down some of the vets with nagging injuries. Occasionally employ sub-optimal coaching strategies (which we seem to have down).

[cmc0605]

We can't draft a talented player outside of the top 2 picks, so might as well try to get there.

[MOtorboat]

I don't think the arguments against tanking in this thread are very convincing... So far I've heard basically 2 arguments:

1.) The "slippery slope" argument... Which states that if you lose too much then that becomes your identity. To which I'd reply - you think one season is going to undo decades of a winning culture? Also, after losing 7 in a row, if we bang out a few wins down the stretch suddenly we're feeling good and well positioned for next year? Don't buy it.

2.) Moving up a few draft slots is no guarantee of success. Which is true... But I'd much rather take my chances at the higher slot than not, all things being equal.

My main arguments for tanking are - it's already a lost season, the coaching staff has already lost the team, we're not talking about a multi-year tanking strategy. So just play all the young guys and sit down some of the vets with nagging injuries. Occasionally employ sub-optimal coaching strategies (which we seem to have down).

With the mobility in the NFL draft, does it matter if you have pick No. 2 or pick No. 4?

If the season ended today and they're at 4, and targeting a quarterback, I suspect the Giants and 49ers won't be after a quarterback, so you're fighting with Cleveland over two or three quarterbacks. The other two teams in the running have their quarterback (Bears, Colts), so I think there is an argument for just playing out the season rather than actively trying to sabotage your team. That said, the best chance to do that is now out 2-4 weeks with a high ankle sprain.

[Buff]

With the mobility in the NFL draft, does it matter if you have pick No. 2 or pick No. 4?

If the season ended today and they're at 4, and targeting a quarterback, I suspect the Giants and 49ers won't be after a quarterback, so you're fighting with Cleveland over two or three quarterbacks. The other two teams in the running have their quarterback (Bears, Colts), so I think there is an argument for just playing out the season rather than actively trying to sabotage your team. That said, the best chance to do that is now out 2-4 weeks with a high ankle sprain.

Point is - you never know whether picking 4-5 slots is critical until after the fact.

I think we're mostly talking past each other because my idea of tanking isn't asking people to throw games - it's just Elway stepping in and giving the coaching staff some perspective on the organization's goals and the best way to achieve those is to let the young inexperienced guys play, shelf any guys with lingering injuries, and basically run the team below its performance capacity.

[MOtorboat]

Point is - you never know whether picking 4-5 slots is critical until after the fact.

I think we're mostly talking past each other because my idea of tanking isn't asking people to throw games - it's just Elway stepping in and giving the coaching staff some perspective on the organization's goals and the best way to achieve those is to let the young inexperienced guys play, shelf any guys with lingering injuries, and basically run the team below its performance capacity.

I think they were at that point until Lynch got hurt.

[dogfish]

I think they were at that point until Lynch got hurt.

we could start jordan taylor!

[Tned]

That's an outlier though. Even as far as top 5 picks go, most don't have THAT kind of career.

And, there is a real world cost. Next year his cap number will be $22.4 million with is 8th highest in the league (six QBs and Suh are only ones higher).

[Buff]

I think they were at that point until Lynch got hurt.

Right, exactly. We're already terrible - so it only takes a few tweaks and next thing you know we're tanking. I think some people here are acting like it's this major strategic pivot which would alter the course of the organization.

[BeefStew25]

It’s general morale. It’s not good to want to lose.

[dogfish]

It’s general morale. It’s not good to want to lose.

we lose every week anyway. . . is it somehow worse for morale to lose with deangelo henderson playing RB instead of jamaal charles? i don't think anyone is advocating for putting intentional fumbles in the gameplan, but you reach a point where getting the kids experience for next year IS the best thing you can do to reinforce your winning culture. . .

[MOtorboat]

we could start jordan taylor!

Do it.

[Slick]

Denver hasn't picked high in very many drafts in my lifetime. Every time they did they got better pretty quickly. I'm fine with them playing the kids.

[Tned]

It’s general morale. It’s not good to want to lose.

How did all those top 10 picks work for the Raiders from their '02 SB appearance until a couple years ago when they finally became competitive again?

[MOtorboat]

How did all those top 10 picks work for the Raiders from their '02 SB appearance until a couple years ago when they finally became competitive again?

To be fair, their general manager/owner was also senile at that point.

[BeefStew25]

Maybe we suck so bad we don’t need to suck on purpose

[topscribe]

so did like 25 other GMs that year. . . much more important was that peyton chose us. . .
Well, Peyton had a reason for choosing us, and that reason was John Elway. He said as much.
But I don't think all of 25 other GMs were interested in Peyton. I don't think the likes of the
Patriots, Saints, Steelers, Chargers, and a handful of others were, for obvious reasons.

But I was just throwing it out there. I understand that doesn't reflect on how proficient Elway
is at drafting QBs

[Buff]

Giants just announced Geno Smith will start over Eli Manning... So it appears we've got some competition for the race to the bottom. Joke's on them for winning a game against us though!

[OrangeHoof]

Elway chose Peyton Manning . . .

Joe Biden could choose Peyton Manning.

[Hawgdriver]

it might not hurt to get mckenzie back in there. . . :heh:

Agree--it can also help you evaluate the ability of the ST coach to rehab a lost player... ;)

[Tned]

To be fair, their general manager/owner was also senile at that point.

Pick a few more perennial losers. The have a bad season or two and rebuild myth doesn't have many successful outcomes than can be pointed to.

[I Eat Staples]

Texans had #1 overall selection three times in a decade. They drafted David Carr, Mario Williams and Jadaveon Clowney. Worth it?

Williams and Clowney were/are really good though, those guys were worth it for sure. Houston's problem has been the problem plaguing many teams, which is inability to land a franchise QB. It looks like they figured that one out though with Watson, as long as his injury doesn't ruin what looked to be a fantastic pro career.

[dogfish]

Pick a few more perennial losers. The have a bad season or two and rebuild myth doesn't have many successful outcomes than can be pointed to.

yea, but we did it here recently-- our current front office did the rebuilding, so we know they're capable. . . granted, i don't think peyton F. manning is walking through that door again-- but i also don't think we suddenly have a 3-13 type of team, either. . . we went 9-7 last year with virtually the same roster. . . VJ and his staff have badly underperformed. . .

whether we find a decent QB or not will ultimately determine how quickly we can bounce back, but IF we can in fact find a QB, i don't see why this would be some huge 3-5 year rebuild. . . finding a RT and a halfway competent TE isn't some impossible mission. . .

[slim]

yea, but we did it here recently-- our current front office did the rebuilding, so we know they're capable. . . granted, i don't think peyton F. manning is walking through that door again-- but i also don't think we suddenly have a 3-13 type of team, either. . . we went 9-7 last year with virtually the same roster. . . VJ and his staff have badly underperformed. . .

whether we find a decent QB or not will ultimately determine how quickly we can bounce back, but IF we can in fact find a QB, i don't see why this would be some huge 3-5 year rebuild. . . finding a RT and a halfway competent TE isn't some impossible mission. . .

I'm intrigued by Eli, but obviously we would be right back here in no mans land in a few years.

[dogfish]

I'm intrigued by Eli, but obviously we would be right back here in no mans land in a few years.

to me, that only works if he wants to play for a below-market deal, and be our transition QB. . . if we're in the top five and pass on a good QB so we can build around fifty-year-old eli, that is some piss poor management IMO. . . i think he's more likely to reunite with coughlin in jacksonville, where they probably are a QB away from being super bowl contenders. . .

[Rick]

I'm intrigued by Eli, but obviously we would be right back here in no mans land in a few years.

I think only way you take Eli/Smith/Bradford/Brees is if you ALSO draft the hopeful QBotF with our top 5 pick as none of those guys are more than 2-3 years.

[slim]

I think only way you take Eli/Smith/Bradford/Brees is if you ALSO draft the hopeful QBotF with our top 5 pick as none of those guys are more than 2-3 years.

Im not sure you can do both.

If you draft one top 5 you have to play him, IMO.

Or, sign an old fart like Eli and draft a 2 year project and hope he can develop

[slim]

Or maybe we already drafted the 2 year project in the 7th round last year?

[underrated29]

Or maybe we already drafted the 2 year project in the 7th round last year?



Now you're talking!
I just dont know how much better Darnold, Lamar and co are than Kelly....? I have not watched any of the QBs coming out this year.

[Hawgdriver]

I'm intrigued by Eli, but obviously we would be right back here in no mans land in a few years.

I'd take it. He would <3<3<3<3<3 to f*** with the B-B connection for a few more years in the postseason, and so would Von.

[Hawgdriver]

Or maybe we already drafted the 2 year project in the 7th round last year?

It is somewhat reassuring that we have at least a sketchy Alex Smith on the roster for cheap already. Not super reassuring, but it's like...no-limit hold 'em leverage.

[slim]

I'd take it. He would <3<3<3<3<3 to f*** with the B-B connection for a few more years in the postseason, and so would Von.

Yeah, Eli seems to have their number. 2 years and let Kelly develop behind him. We could do worse.

[Hawgdriver]

Now you're talking!
I just dont know how much better Darnold, Lamar and co are than Kelly....? I have not watched any of the QBs coming out this year.

Lamar is not an answer.

[slim]

Yeah, Eli seems to have their number. 2 years and let Kelly develop behind him. We could do worse.

If we still had Sloter, this plan would be legit.

[Hawgdriver]

Maybe Kelly can abandon childish things.

[underrated29]

Lamar is not an answer.

Ive heard from some he is not and others he is. I have no clue. All I know that everyone can agree on is he is fast. But I do not know if he is a running QB like Vick or or a passing QB who happens to be fast like Luck......Or if he is a Johhny Manziel.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Ive heard from some he is not and others he is. I have no clue. All I know that everyone can agree on is he is fast. But I do not know if he is a running QB like Vick or or a passing QB who happens to be fast like Luck......Or if he is a Johhny Manziel.

Manziel had 4.8 speed. He wasn’t fast

[BroncoWave]

Ive heard from some he is not and others he is. I have no clue. All I know that everyone can agree on is he is fast. But I do not know if he is a running QB like Vick or or a passing QB who happens to be fast like Luck......Or if he is a Johhny Manziel.

You say this as if only being a running QB like Vick would be a bad thing. If he were the next Vick, I'd take him in the first round and be totally pleased with it.

[underrated29]

Maybe Kelly can abandon childish things.

This!
He needs to move from the Ak47s and man up to Rocket Launchers

[Hawgdriver]

You say this as if only being a running QB like Vick would be a bad thing. If he were the next Vick, I'd take him in the first round and be totally pleased with it.

Lamar has big accuracy issues.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

You say this as if only being a running QB like Vick would be a bad thing. If he were the next Vick, I'd take him in the first round and be totally pleased with it.
Agreed, Vick was a good player and could have been elite if he had a better work ethic before he went to jail.

[BroncoWave]

Agreed, Vick was a good player and could have been elite if he had a better work ethic before he went to jail.

If you could bottle up the Vick we saw for like a year and a half in Philly and expand that over an entire career, he would have been a hall of famer. Dude had all the talent in the world. Not even considering his speed, his arm talent was Elway-tier. I have no idea if Jackson has that type of talent, but if he did I'd take the chance in round 1 for sure.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

If you could bottle up the Vick we saw for like a year and a half in Philly and expand that over an entire career, he would have been a hall of famer. Dude had all the talent in the world. Not even considering his speed, his arm talent was Elway-tier. I have no idea if Jackson has that type of talent, but if he did I'd take the chance in round 1 for sure.

I don’t think Jackson has that kind of arm talent.

[Cugel]

Well, Peyton had a reason for choosing us, and that reason was John Elway. He said as much.
But I don't think all of 25 other GMs were interested in Peyton. I don't think the likes of the
Patriots, Saints, Steelers, Chargers, and a handful of others were, for obvious reasons.

But I was just throwing it out there. I understand that doesn't reflect on how proficient Elway
is at drafting QBs

Peyton wasn't even willing to meet with most of the teams. I think the 49ers actually flew out to Denver while he was here in their corporate jet and "surprised" Peyton by inviting him to come out to the plane and meet with them. Peyton had not scheduled the visit and didn't like them springing it on him like that. He's detail oriented in everything and they were trying to violate his pre-determined schedule. He declined to meet with them and they flew away.

He met with a few teams including the Titans who made him the most lucrative offer (by a lot). He chose Denver for a lot of reasons, not just John Elway. The biggest reason might have been the defense. Denver had a decent one already, just having drafted Von Miller.

[Cugel]

Agreed, Vick was a good player and could have been elite if he had a better work ethic before he went to jail.

He apparently admitted this very thing to some of his friends who mentioned it on Orange & Blue 760. I think it was Ray Crockett? He felt sorry he hadn't worked harder at becoming the best QB he could.

[Cugel]

You say this as if only being a running QB like Vick would be a bad thing. If he were the next Vick, I'd take him in the first round and be totally pleased with it.

It would be a very bad thing. Running QBs can be successful -- for a time in the NFL. BUT, they don't last long. It's unbelievably frustrating for defenders. They get close to the QB. But, then time after time he throws the ball before they can get there. They want to hit him so bad, but the NFL rules prevent it. They can get suspended for a late hit on the QB. And a game suspension means they don't get paid for that game.

I.E. they lose 1/16th of their annual salary. For a guy like Aqib for instance, if he's making $12M a year, that means a $750,000 fine for every game!

So, naturally when the QB runs every defender on the field wants nothing more than to get a colossal, but totally legal kill shot on him and put him out of the game. All perfectly legal, but the result is the QB is now a RB who throws.

And the average RB in the NFL doesn't last 5 years.

If you are using a top 10 pick on a QB, and ultimately paying him $20M a year on his franchise contract deal, you want him to last at least 10 years (if he's good). Then you can build around him, and have a reasonable chance to win multiple SBs.

But for this "Tom Brady" formula to work, he has to stay HEALTY, and stay on the field. That means staying in the pocket, throwing the ball early and taking the self-sack when needed to live to throw another play.

In short Peyton Manning is the only ECONOMIC model for an NFL QB that makes sense. The Running QB can win some games, but like Michael Vick and RGIII they don't always develop into an accurate elite pocket QB.

And that is what Denver needs to have a chance at multiple SBs. A Carson Wentz for instance.

So, the only thing that makes sense when you have that once in a generation (hopefully) top 5 draft pick, is to select a QB who can last at LEAST ten years, so we don't have to do this all over again in 3-5 years because the new QB gets the stuffing beat out of him and is trying to transition to what he has never done - be a straight pocket passing Qb. That's what sank RGIII. He kept insisting that he wanted to be a traditional pocket QB after he got hurt his first year, only he sucked at it.

He didn't get to the NFL because of his ability to sit in the pocket and make accurate throws. So, he wasn't exception at that. And Denver needs an exceptional QB. If they can't find one in the draft, screw it!

If that's the case, get a veteran FA Qb, and draft a LT, or monster pass-rushing DT or a game breaking TE or WR (they are getting rid of D.T. so they'll need one).

[BeefStew25]

Wow. Cugel must watch the nfl.

[Cugel]

Wow. Cugel must watch the nfl.

What is the point of your sarcasm, when you know I am right? IF the QB is successful, then they are going to renew his contract, not let him get to FA and re-sign him to a long term deal after his 3rd or 4th season. And that is going to cost $20M plus cause that's the going rate for starting QBs.

A running QB won't last 10 seasons in the NFL, unless, like Steve Young he stops running and learns to be a pocket passer. And not all running QBs can do that, as RGIII and Michael Vick proved.

[Hawgdriver]

Wow. Cugel must watch the nfl.

Mayhaps he does, mayhaps he don't.

[WARHORSE]

Tanking is like doing steroids.

Does anyone think if Alex Rodriguez had it to do all over again, he would choose not to use steroids? Or is he making it rain ben franklins while nude on the balcony after an injection?

Draft picks are like money. The first pick is more valuable (USUALLY) than the second pick. I actually think the 3rd pick in the draft is the most desired position to be in unless there is a once in a generation player at number one.

Look at last years number one......everyone is like: "Umm......wait.......what was his name again?"

So tanking? Yes....its worth it. lol

With this years crop of QBs.....the higher the better because there are a LOT of teams who want a QB.

My guess is Cousins forces the franchise tag, leading the Skins to cut him unless they are willing to rent him for one year at 34 plus million making him the highest paid QB in the league.

All the leverage is with Cousins. Hence.......I think he has a shot to end up in Denver.

However....it depends on what the Broncos draft position is and their evaluations of the QB talent in the draft. Having a franchise QB on a 5 year rookie deal is so much more desirable than paying Cousins....especially when youre paying Miller too.

[Hawgdriver]

Does anyone think if Alex Rodriguez had it to do all over again, he would choose not to use steroids? Or is he making it rain ben franklins while nude on the balcony after an injection?

Hi fived for this snatch of prose.

[Nomad]

I still like winning.

[slim]

I still like winning.

I'm not sure if I do or not. I can't remember what it feels like.

[Freyaka]

Manziel had 4.8 speed. He wasn’t fast

I dunno, he exited his career with blazing speed.

[dogfish]

hmmm. . . I wonder what ol' jonathon football is up to these days. . . . we should bring him in for a look. . .

[WARHORSE]

I still like winning.


Too late for that. Snap out of it man!!! We have to lose now, its the only way we can have a little fun in the offseason. The draft will be our superbowl......ish.

[WARHORSE]

Breaking news for those of you who watch football with your eyes closed.......Devonte Booker aint it.



Revelation.

[Shazam!]

Breaking news for those of you who watch football with your eyes closed.......Devonte Booker aint it.



Revelation.

Thanks War. Where would I have been?

[Nomad]

Go BRONCOS beat the Dolphins.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

hmmm. . . I wonder what ol' jonathon football is up to these days. . . . we should bring him in for a look. . .

I saw a picture of him on a beach recently. He was out of shape.

[slim]

Mayhaps he does, mayhaps he don't.

Im going with mayhaps he dont

[gregbroncs]

But I think you guys are framing this as though it is some multi-year strategy akin to the Philly 76ers or the Cleveland Browns... In which case I agree with you - it's too inexact and the upside is not assured...

But in a lost season where you've already lost 8 games, you absolutely tank the 2nd half of the season as there is no upside in winning games.
Building a winning culture. Not allowing the players, coaches and franchise to come to accept losing. Not destroying the will of the good competitive players to play their best. All of those are upsides to winning. In the NBA tanking is a legit strategy, in the NFL I believe it's counter productive and takes your franchise one step closer to being the Browns. In the NFL I want the entire franchise concentrated on winning, so to me tanking is a bad strategy.

[Hawgdriver]

Building a winning culture. Not allowing the players, coaches and franchise to come to accept losing. Not destroying the will of the good competitive players to play their best. All of those are upsides to winning. In the NBA tanking is a legit strategy, in the NFL I believe it's counter productive and takes your franchise one step closer to being the Browns. In the NFL I want the entire franchise concentrated on winning, so to me tanking is a bad strategy.

I can see the reasons for stacking the deck against your players and coach in order to improve franchise roster quality in coming years, but it's not to be heavily weighted, and not to be weighted above an intense desire to win at every level in the organization in every aspect. It just seems like tanking is close to the decision to bend over and take it, which is antithetical to the passion required of a champion in sport.

[dogfish]

I can see the reasons for stacking the deck against your players and coach in order to improve franchise roster quality in coming years, but it's not to be heavily weighted, and not to be weighted above an intense desire to win at every level in the organization in every aspect. It just seems like tanking is close to the decision to bend over and take it, which is antithetical to the passion required of a champion in sport.

it's a fine line. . . but as flat as our guys have been playing, letting some hungry youngsters get out there might not be the worst thing we can do. . . and they need to shut wolfe down for his health-- play kerr at end, and bring up tyreek jarrett from the practice squad. . . doesn't hurt to get shelby harris more snaps, either. . .

[Hawgdriver]

it's a fine line. . . but as flat as our guys have been playing, letting some hungry youngsters get out there might not be the worst thing we can do. . . and they need to shut wolfe down for his health-- play kerr at end, and bring up tyreek jarrett from the practice squad. . . doesn't hurt to get shelby harris more snaps, either. . .

yeah, I want to see #20 in live fire and also is D Walker any good? D Henderson I think is Chad Kelly hopeless but give him live bullets. The trick is making it honest, like everyone really wants to win and it's not some bullshit exercise...so ******* win!!!

[Cugel]

However....it depends on what the Broncos draft position is and their evaluations of the QB talent in the draft. Having a franchise QB on a 5 year rookie deal is so much more desirable than paying Cousins....especially when youre paying Miller too.

Elway was keenly aware of this and he made his choice while watching the Seahawks crush Manning in the SB. He decided to spend his budget on FA defenders and try and replicate the Seahawks success.

And after Manning, Brock Osweiler was supposed to be "developed."

But spending the $ on defense meant the offense stagnated, especially as no offensive picks have turned into undervalued stars. So, they lost Wes Welker, Julius Thomas, and Knowshon Moreno, and never got anybody who replaced their production. Offensively, they declined.

By the 2015 SB the offense was pathetic. Since Manning retired and Ware retired, there's a lack of leadership too.

This clearly illustrates the biggest problem in football. You really need an elite QB to win SBs. 2015 Broncos, like the '85 Bears was the exception not the rule.

The Broncos struggle the last 2 years comes from trying to have their cake and eat it too. They had an elite defense, and wanted a "re-boot not a re-build."

That implied you could win a SB with Trevor Siemian and a half-crippled offense + strong defense. Well, you can't, even if Siemian had been the QB they hoped. Alex Smith isn't going to win it either. Either.

Well, the team now is tanking whether they want to or not, so they will have a top 5 pick. They have no choice but to get a top elite QB prospect and develop that guy for a couple of years and hope he pans out.

Getting a FA veteran and paying him $20m + a year can't work if they are also paying a bunch of defenders to be great. The ONLY way it works is if you have an elite QB. Ideally for the salary cap the Broncos would find a guy like Carson Wentz and he could lead them to the playoffs and give them a legitimate hope of a SB while still playing under his 5-year rookie contract. This makes him relatively inexpensive and allows the team to afford higher priced veterans. Like a Von Miller.

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by Hawgdriver
I can see the reasons for stacking the deck against your players and coach in order to improve franchise roster quality in coming years, but it's not to be heavily weighted, and not to be weighted above an intense desire to win at every level in the organization in every aspect. It just seems like tanking is close to the decision to bend over and take it, which is antithetical to the passion required of a champion in sport.

Pretty hard to recover an expectation of victory if it's lost. Some call that a "culture of wining" but I think developing the feeling that you expect winning every week and defeat is felt to be a temporary aberration is a better description.

People who expect confidently to succeed and work out of that feeling much more often do succeed than people who confidently expect to fail and are finding reasons to fail. And it is hard to turn a team around when they have developed the expectation of failure.

Just ask the Cleveland Browns. Why have they been so consistently terrible for so long? Because they expect to suck. They start out each season hopeful, but as soon as adversity strikes their confidence flatlines and they go back to sucking because, that is the default condition for them.

That is what they secretly expected to happen!

[WARHORSE]

Wanted to share a full writeup on tanking from a reporter who went underground to investigate the Philadelphia 76ers.

Full write up:


TANKING: AN INVESTIGATION INTO THE PHILADELPHIA 76ERS

Written by Joe (Stanky) Dumbarse
November 18, 2017


Tanking. Trust the process.





copyright ne. @1796 NY NY, 10048 J. Dumbarse, Warhorse editor

[Timmy!]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/505093968774709248/HntuIDwk.jpeg

[Tned]

Is it still tanking if you try and win, but can't?

[dogfish]

Is it still tanking if you try and win, but can't?


I believe that is called sucking. . .

[Tned]

I believe that is called sucking. . .

I knew it was an ing, just didn't know which...

[Edmonton Bronco Fan]

Shit QB after shit QB after shit QB in this year's draft unfortunately.

And it's not like Elway has shown any aptitude in being able to draft offensive talent anyway.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Shit QB after shit QB after shit QB in this year's draft unfortunately.

And it's not like Elway has shown any aptitude in being able to draft offensive talent anyway.

Good thing we had no place for Sloter John!

[WARHORSE]

Thanks War. Where would I have been?


I LOVE grateful cohorts. heh heh :lol:

[Buff]

The good news is that the Giants are gonna go back to Eli with McAdoo out... Maybe they'll scratch out another win or two.

[BroncoJoe]

The good news is that the Giants are gonna go back to Eli with McAdoo out... Maybe they'll scratch out another win or two.

Such BS that his starting streak ended, and not because he was injured.

[dogfish]

hawg, i don't think we gotta tank this year, meng. . . we don't have to try to lose, we've been doing just fine as it is. . . although, if lynch is out, it might not hurt to get mckenzie back in there. . . :heh:

looks like our secret weapon worked to perfection. . .

#EmbraceTheTank

[Buff]

looks like our secret weapon worked to perfection. . .

#EmbraceTheTank

Hypothetically speaking, if there were a player being paid to throw games and shave points - how would they perform any differently than McKenzie has?

[dogfish]

Hypothetically speaking, if there were a player being paid to throw games and shave points - how would they perform any differently than McKenzie has?

i suspect they would suck less than he has, so as not to seem so obvious. . .

[MOtorboat]

Hypothetically speaking, if there were a player being paid to throw games and shave points - how would they perform any differently than McKenzie has?

He did catch a pair of them before that.

[Cugel]

i suspect they would suck less than he has, so as not to seem so obvious. . .

Beat me to it. No way McKenzie would dare suck so bad if he were trying to throw games. Any normal coach would take him out. It's just stubborn stupidity for VJ to let that dude have 6 fumbles.

He deserves to be fired just for that fiasco.

[Freyaka]

Title of this thread should be changed to "Tanking--Worth it or not, it's happening"

We might beat the colts...even that isn't a given.

[Hawgdriver]

Title of this thread should be changed to "Tanking--Worth it or not, it's happening"

We might beat the colts...even that isn't a given.

Colts have a TE, checkmate.

[Freyaka]

Colts have a TE, checkmate.

Yea, but their defense is SOOOO bad that not even our offense could fail to score on it the entire game.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Colts have a TE, checkmate.

And a pulse, which is the major requirement to beat the Broncos these days.

[Freyaka]

And a pulse, which is the major requirement to beat the Broncos these days.

Is it? I don't think the Giants have much a pulse, but they kicked this crap fest off for us.

[Shazam!]

I can't see Denver putting up a fight against Indy because I expect them to get hammered by the Jets who need that win.

[Nomad]

For all you trap game folks.....Trap game for the Jets. :D

[Cugel]

Yes, this thread is now pointless because instead of tanking (deliberately) they are losing because they suck that bad and have no talent on offense. There is just almost no talent at all on offense. They could use about 20 draft picks this off-season.

[topscribe]

Yes, this thread is now pointless because instead of tanking (deliberately) they are losing because they suck that bad and have no talent on offense. There is just almost no talent at all on offense. They could use about 20 draft picks this off-season.
Paradis
Leary
Bolles
Thomas
Sanders
Anderson

Really?

[dogfish]

Paradis
Leary
Bolles
Thomas
Sanders
Anderson

Really?

deepest broncos team ever!

lol. . . sorry, top. . .

[topscribe]

deepest broncos team ever!

lol. . . sorry, top. . .
So I was a little bit over the top. Okay?

So you think I should start quoting all the stupid posts everyone has made here (because everyone has), or should I just stop posting?

[Cugel]

Paradis
Leary
Bolles
Thomas
Sanders
Anderson

Really?

Not one of those players are impact players. None of them has played particularly well. And of those five players, two, possibly three will be back next year: Paradis, Bolles and maybe Sanders. Maybe.

And if they draft a LT in the first round, they will move Bolles to RT.

[dogfish]

So you think I should start quoting all the stupid posts everyone has made here (because everyone has), or should I just stop posting?

if you want, sure. . . or you could just take your ribbing with a good sense of humor. . . :D

[topscribe]

Not one of those players are impact players. None of them has played particularly well. And of those five players, two, possibly three will be back next year: Paradis, Bolles and maybe Sanders. Maybe.

And if they draft a LT in the first round, they will move Bolles to RT.
You categorically stated there is no talent on the offense. I maintain those players are talent.
They are good players. "Impact" is subjective, and who will be here next year is speculative.

[topscribe]

if you want, sure. . . or you could just take your ribbing with a good sense of humor. . . :D
I understand. It's just that it's gone on for a while now, and there comes a point where
it's not funny anymore. But this is a "first" for you, so you get a pass. :D

[dogfish]

I understand. It's just that it's gone on for a while now, and there comes a point where
it's not funny anymore. But this is a "first" for you, so you get a pass. :D

well, i can see where it's not funny to you. . . :laugh:


in any case, slim doesn't have a monopoly on busting your balls, even if he does enjoy it the most. . .

[Cugel]

You categorically stated there is no talent on the offense. I maintain those players are talent.
They are good players. "Impact" is subjective, and who will be here next year is speculative.

Not really. There is no way they are paying DT $12m next year or Aqib $12m to play for a 3-13 team. None. Todd Davis & Corey Nelson are FAs. Paradis is a RFA. They are starting new TEs, WRs, RBs, and two at least new OL, possibly 3. Nobody, but nobody expects CJ to be back - he's not earning his $4.5m and you can get much cheaper RBs.

Latest word is that they might possibly want Jamaal Charles back, but I don't believe that. In any case they aren't using him so if he wants to play another year, he's going to want to go somewhere else he can compete for a SB. That certainly isn't Denver.

I'll go with Mark Schlereth's opinion of the offensive talent over yours.

[topscribe]

Not really. There is no way they are paying DT $12m next year or Aqib $12m to play for a 3-13 team. None. Todd Davis & Corey Nelson are FAs. Paradis is a RFA. They are starting new TEs, WRs, RBs, and two at least new OL, possibly 3. Nobody, but nobody expects CJ to be back - he's not earning his $4.5m and you can get much cheaper RBs.

Latest word is that they might possibly want Jamaal Charles back, but I don't believe that. In any case they aren't using him so if he wants to play another year, he's going to want to go somewhere else he can compete for a SB. That certainly isn't Denver.

I'll go with Mark Schlereth's opinion of the offensive talent over yours.
I'm not aware of Schlereth's opinion, and I do value it, but I don't accept it as gospel. Anyway, Todd
Davis and Corey Nelson are not what one would call outstanding. The Broncos might very well draft
an ILB, and with the numbers they have on the DL (when healthy), they might have the personnel
that would cause them to go back to the 4-3 (just speculating).

I don't see them letting Paradis out the door, the best player on the OL. DT might restructure, who
knows? And I don't see Talib necessarily going anywhere. Who would replace him? If the answer is
Roby, then who would replace Roby? These days, defenses need three good CBs, and that's what the
Broncos have: three good CBs. That's it.

Nonetheless, you're carrying on a different argument than what I responded to. You said there was
no talent on the offense, and I pointed out six players who can be considered talent. You don't have
to be an All-Pro to be considered talent. A "good" player is talent, and all six are good players -- not
HOFers, but good. That, too, is a subjective term, I guess.

[Cugel]

I'm not aware of Schlereth's opinion, and I do value it, but I don't accept it as gospel. Anyway, Todd
Davis and Corey Nelson are not what one would call outstanding. The Broncos might very well draft
an ILB, and with the numbers they have on the DL (when healthy), they might have the personnel
that would cause them to go back to the 4-3 (just speculating).

I don't see them letting Paradis out the door, the best player on the OL. DT might restructure, who
knows? And I don't see Talib necessarily going anywhere. Who would replace him? If the answer is
Roby, then who would replace Roby? These days, defenses need three good CBs, and that's what the
Broncos have: three good CBs. That's it.

Nonetheless, you're carrying on a different argument than what I responded to. You said there was no talent on the offense, and I pointed out six players who can be considered talent. You don't have to be an All-Pro to be considered talent. A "good" player is talent, and all six are good players -- not HOFers, but good. That, too, is a subjective term, I guess.

The Broncos are #27 in the league in offense, scoring 17.5ppg. And a lot of that is the 42point blowout win over the Raiders. So, the offense is about the worst in the league. That is real proof of a lack of talent.

As for players they might keep, Paradis is one. He's a RFA so they can match any offer. If they want him they will keep him, it's a question of how much he's worth.

As for the others, a lot of players want to leave this team. You lose 12 games in a row and everybody wants out. Some will get their wish. Most will.

If the Broncos want to sign a veteran FA QB who doesn't totally suck they will have to pay close to $20m. For Brees or Kirk Cousins, or Teddy Bridgewater, they would have to pay more than that. Considerably more in Brees' case.

Now, when Peyton was here, they sometimes were able to convince FAs to take less than the market value to come here and win championships. But those days are gone. Denver is not remotely an elite franchise at this point, so money talks and B.S. walks as far as FAs are concerned. Elway tried to convince Calais Campbell to take $13m when Jacksonville offered him $15m a year for instance and now he has 12.5 sacks - for Jacksonville which now has the #1 NFL defense.

The best player on the OL however, is certainly not Paradis, it's Ron Leary who they stupidly put over at RG, when they are paying him $8.875m in 2017 and 2018 each. They should move him back to the LG spot where he excelled in Dallas.

[Cugel]

We're going round and round. I don't think they want DT back, and certainly not for anything close to $12m. He probably doesn't want to be back either and he can certainly find a team a lot closer to a SB than Denver to finish his career. Perhaps they re-structure him for $6m or something, but I seriously doubt it.

Aqib almost certainly doesn't want to be here. He was the leader of the locker-room dissent last year and this year has gotten that one-game suspension that could easily have been more. The Broncos have been planning for years to replace him with Bradley Roby and move one of their young CBs into that #3 spot, while moving Chris Harris up to #1 CB. They are reportedly liking Brenden Langley, although they took him out of the lineup and put Justin Simmons in his place as #3 CB in Talib's absence. He's a young player with a lot of potential they would like to develop.

I'd say they try him out at #3 CB next season, or possibly draft another CB.

If I had to rank Denver's off-season purge in order of likelihood, I'd rank them: from #1 - dead certain, to #10 - almost certain retain:

#1 CJ Anderson - $4.5m is way too much for his production. They got trapped into paying him that much when they underestimated the Dolphins interest in him and gave him a low round tender that was matched. He never earned his money.
#1 Aqib
#1 DT
#5 Sanders - 50-50 chance.
#1 Menelik Watson - "Hey! Hey! Hey! Good-bye!"
#3 Brandon Marshall - $7m and can't cover TEs.
#1 Brandon McManus - they can find a kicker who doesn't shank it that often for $3.5m.
#1 Donald Stephenson -

[Cugel]

These are Denver's UFAs for next year:

Virgil Green TE 29 DEN TBD $2,800,000 UFA -
Todd Davis ILB 25 DEN TBD $2,746,000 UFA -
Donald Stephenson LT 29 DEN TBD $2,500,000 UFA -
Jamaal Charles RB 30 DEN TBD $2,500,000 UFA -
Jared Crick DE 28 DEN TBD $2,000,000 UFA -
Allen Barbre RT 33 DEN TBD $1,450,000 UFA -
Cody Latimer WR 25 DEN TBD $927,163 UFA -
Billy Turner G 26 DEN TBD $786,625 UFA -
Brock Osweiler QB 27 DEN TBD $775,000 UFA -
Billy Winn DE 28 DEN TBD $775,000 UFA -
Cyrus Kouandjio RT 24 DEN TBD $690,000 UFA -
Corey Nelson ILB 25 DEN TBD $567,150 UFA -

I'd be surprised if they kept more than 1 or 2 of them.

[topscribe]

The Broncos are #27 in the league in offense, scoring 17.5ppg. And a lot of that is the 42point blowout win over the Raiders. So, the offense is about the worst in the league. That is real proof of a lack of talent.

As for players they might keep, Paradis is one. He's a RFA so they can match any offer. If they want him they will keep him, it's a question of how much he's worth.

As for the others, a lot of players want to leave this team. You lose 12 games in a row and everybody wants out. Some will get their wish. Most will.

If the Broncos want to sign a veteran FA QB who doesn't totally suck they will have to pay close to $20m. For Brees or Kirk Cousins, or Teddy Bridgewater, they would have to pay more than that. Considerably more in Brees' case.

Now, when Peyton was here, they sometimes were able to convince FAs to take less than the market value to come here and win championships. But those days are gone. Denver is not remotely an elite franchise at this point, so money talks and B.S. walks as far as FAs are concerned. Elway tried to convince Calais Campbell to take $13m when Jacksonville offered him $15m a year for instance and now he has 12.5 sacks - for Jacksonville which now has the #1 NFL defense.

The best player on the OL however, is certainly not Paradis, it's Ron Leary who they stupidly put over at RG, when they are paying him $8.875m in 2017 and 2018 each. They should move him back to the LG spot where he excelled in Dallas.
No, that is not conclusive proof of lack of talent. More factors than that go into it. I would think you knew that.

You could well be right about Leary, both that he may be the best on the OL and that he should be at LG. (If
they were to draft Notre Dame's Nelson, however, I'll bet Leary would stay at RG.) The fact is, both Leary and
Paradis are good at their positions, and Bolles is a future star. So there's talent. That alone is more than the
"none" that you mentioned.

Regarding a QB, you're thinking like a lawyer. If you think like a GM, the bottom line is wins and losses, not
contracts. If it costs $20M to win, he'll do it. And he knows talent is temporary. Elway does have a lot of talent,
and he needs a QB (and maybe a turnover of coaching staff) to achieve success while it is here. If he figures
that a given QB could immediately put the team into SB contention, you bet he will spend the $20M.

[Buff]

We're going round and round. I don't think they want DT back, and certainly not for anything close to $12m. He probably doesn't want to be back either and he can certainly find a team a lot closer to a SB than Denver to finish his career. Perhaps they re-structure him for $6m or something, but I seriously doubt it.

Aqib almost certainly doesn't want to be here. He was the leader of the locker-room dissent last year and this year has gotten that one-game suspension that could easily have been more. The Broncos have been planning for years to replace him with Bradley Roby and move one of their young CBs into that #3 spot, while moving Chris Harris up to #1 CB. They are reportedly liking Brenden Langley, although they took him out of the lineup and put Justin Simmons in his place as #3 CB in Talib's absence. He's a young player with a lot of potential they would like to develop.

I'd say they try him out at #3 CB next season, or possibly draft another CB.

If I had to rank Denver's off-season purge in order of likelihood, I'd rank them: from #1 - dead certain, to #10 - almost certain retain:

#1 CJ Anderson - $4.5m is way too much for his production. They got trapped into paying him that much when they underestimated the Dolphins interest in him and gave him a low round tender that was matched. He never earned his money.
#1 Aqib
#1 DT
#5 Sanders - 50-50 chance.
#1 Menelik Watson - "Hey! Hey! Hey! Good-bye!"
#3 Brandon Marshall - $7m and can't cover TEs.
#1 Brandon McManus - they can find a kicker who doesn't shank it that often for $3.5m.
#1 Donald Stephenson -

Go look at what the top DBs are making in the NFL.

1. Rams cornerback Trumaine Johnson: $16.7 million
2. Redskins cornerback Josh Norman: $15 million
3. Cardinals cornerback Patrick Peterson: $14 million
4. Seahawks cornerback Richard Sherman: $14 million
5. Falcons cornerback Desmond Trufant: $13.8 million
6. Browns cornerback Joe Haden: $13.5 million
7. Jaguars cornerback A.J. Bouye: $13.5 million
8. Patriots cornerback Stephon Gilmore: $13 million
9. Giants cornerback Janoris Jenkins: $12.5 million
10. Lions cornerback Darius Slay: $12 million

We've got Talib under contract for $11 million in 2018 and $8 million in 2019. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't let him finish his contract out given he still produces as one of the best DBs in football. Just because we theoretically have some depth doesn't mean we should create a hole... I'm just not sure we could redeploy that money more effectively than the value we get for him.

[topscribe]

Go look at what the top DBs are making in the NFL.

1. Rams cornerback Trumaine Johnson: $16.7 million
2. Redskins cornerback Josh Norman: $15 million
3. Cardinals cornerback Patrick Peterson: $14 million
4. Seahawks cornerback Richard Sherman: $14 million
5. Falcons cornerback Desmond Trufant: $13.8 million
6. Browns cornerback Joe Haden: $13.5 million
7. Jaguars cornerback A.J. Bouye: $13.5 million
8. Patriots cornerback Stephon Gilmore: $13 million
9. Giants cornerback Janoris Jenkins: $12.5 million
10. Lions cornerback Darius Slay: $12 million

We've got Talib under contract for $11 million in 2018 and $8 million in 2019. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't let him finish his contract out given he still produces as one of the best DBs in football. Just because we theoretically have some depth doesn't mean we should create a hole... I'm just not sure we could redeploy that money more effectively than the value we get for him.
Cug is thinking too much in dollars and cents. Sure, that's a factor. But so is personnel.
As I mentioned before (and I could be wrong), if they jettison Talib, who will replace him?
Well the first answer is Roby. But then, who will replace Roby? Behind Talib, Roby, and
CHJ, whom do they have? Defenses these days need three good CBs, not two.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Todd Davis is slated to make $2.7 million next year? :eek:

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
Go look at what the top DBs are making in the NFL.

1. Rams cornerback Trumaine Johnson: $16.7 million
2. Redskins cornerback Josh Norman: $15 million
3. Cardinals cornerback Patrick Peterson: $14 million
4. Seahawks cornerback Richard Sherman: $14 million
5. Falcons cornerback Desmond Trufant: $13.8 million
6. Browns cornerback Joe Haden: $13.5 million
7. Jaguars cornerback A.J. Bouye: $13.5 million
8. Patriots cornerback Stephon Gilmore: $13 million
9. Giants cornerback Janoris Jenkins: $12.5 million
10. Lions cornerback Darius Slay: $12 million

We've got Talib under contract for $11 million in 2018 and $8 million in 2019. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't let him finish his contract out given he still produces as one of the best DBs in football. Just because we theoretically have some depth doesn't mean we should create a hole... I'm just not sure we could redeploy that money more effectively than the value we get for him.

Personally, I have nothing against Talib. If Elway thinks they can afford him, fine. I was fine with his ripping the gold chain off "crab-boy". I was ok with Talib fighting him after he sucker punched Chris Harris.

But, they are going to have to sign a veteran FA QB. They are going to have to re-sign Bradley Roby to a long term deal because 2018 is his final year under his contract (they could exercise a 5th year option but they want to lock him up long term) and that will make him a $10m a year plus player.

They are a rebuilding team and these older high priced veterans are going to have to go. D.T. has declined in play. Ray Crockett keeps pointing out that he's not getting separation like he is used to seeing. And that is likely due to age and playing hurt, which he has admitted he's been doing. He was injured going back to college, and it's catching up with him. He's no longer an elite top 10 WR, but he's being paid like one.

Talib is now over 30 and they have younger players they have been developing to take his place. There is just zero chance they will keep Talib long term.

But, you don't have to believe me. Just watch over the next 2 months. If Talib is still on the roster in June, fine. But, it sure doesn't look like it. CJ got a deal worth more than what they wanted to pay him to begin with because they miscalculated and Miami gave him a $4.5m a year offer.

All off season the sports-writers like Mike Klis were saying that this is a "make or break year for CJ" and that he needed to step up big and have a monster year if he wanted to be on the roster next season. He hasn't. He has 650 yards and has never rushed for 1000 in his career. He's overpaid! He's gone!

They like Booker and Booker has been getting more of the carries. Obviously they want to work the cheaper and younger player into the starting lineup. That is true with Roby too. They don't want to pay him that ginormous money it will take to keep him on his next contract, if he's the #3 CB.

True they need 3 CBs, but those 3 don't have to be the guys currently on the roster. They like Brendan Langley and they drafted him and he's cheap, making only $560k next year. They want him to be the #3 guy.

Here's his salary: year: 2018 (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/aqib-talib-3024/)base salary: $11,000,000 roster bonus: $1,000,000 total = $12,000,000. Cap hit for cutting him: $1,000,000.

Sure the top CBs get that kind of money, but they are mostly younger than 30. Every commenter I've heard insists they are likely getting rid of Talib and it doesn't appear he even wants to be here. This is a rebuilding team and this will be his last contract, his last chance to win SBs. He's going elsewhere.

Sanders tweeted "You're going to miss me when I'm gone!" with a video of him running down the sideline. Then he deleted it. That indicates he thinks he will be gone next year, but he's being politically correct and not criticizing the organization. A lot of players are thinking the same thing.

Seen Branden Marshall's Twitter feed where he criticized Elway for saying the players were "soft?" Think that will go over well? He doesn't care because he's a FA. You don't see Chris Harris Jr. tweeting stuff like that because he doesn't want to p8iss off his employer.

I think a lot of fans are in total denial about how much roster change is coming in the offseason. Most of your favorite players will be gone next year and they will be rebuilding with cheaper and younger players, including a new franchise QB. About 1/2 the roster will be gone.

And the roster changes are likely to be even more than that if they fire VJ. New coaches mean new players.

[Cugel]

Just to give you guys a heads up of what is coming:

In 2017 Roby made $2m.
In 2018 his salary goes up to $8,526,000.
$2m is nickel CB money. $8.5m is #2 CB money or even #1 CB money on some teams.

Goodbye Aqib! No way are the Broncos in 2018 spending $10.3m for Harris + $8.5m for Roby + $12m for Aqib. $30.8m for your 3 CBs? No way in Hell! :coffee:

[BeefStew25]

Ya cut roby then, you long winded ego trip.

[Jsteve01]

how is it that everyone has talked about all year how our quarterback play has been so terrible. And yet people are so willing to write off Sanders and Thomas when they've had no one to consistently get them the ball?

[Timmy!]

you long winded ego trip.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oeSAD00YsGzUPTmqA/giphy.gif

[BroncoJoe]

... the 42point blowout win over the Raiders.

Fake news.

[Cugel]

Ya cut roby then, you long winded ego trip.

11548

Roby is younger and cheaper. He's also their draft pick. They will keep him and continue to develop him for future because he's 25 and Talib will be 32 next year! Roby can play another 10 years in the NFL, while Talib is on his last contract.

So, yah derp, they are not getting rid of Roby!

[Cugel]

Fake news.

What??? Did I leave off a zero somewhere?

[spikerman]

how is it that everyone has talked about all year how our quarterback play has been so terrible. And yet people are so willing to write off Sanders and Thomas when they've had no one to consistently get them the ball?

As for DT, I think a lot of people feel like his body language and effort make it look like he doesn’t give a shit.

[BroncoJoe]

What??? Did I leave off a zero somewhere?

No, but we scored 42 points against the Cowboys, not the Raiders.

[topscribe]

So many are panting like a thirsty deer for the high #1 pick. But winning teams are not
formed by single high first round picks. They are formed by assembling talent from picks
througout the draft and FA signings. Witness the Patriots. When’s the last time they had
a first five pick? The Broncos had one, and the rest of the years they picked near the
bottom of the first round. And they won the Division five straight years and went to the
Super Bowl twice, winning one.


Frankly, I’m not concerned where the Broncos pick in the first round. It’s how they pick in
the first seven rounds, and what they do in FA. Elway has whiffed on a few in the first
couple rounds, but he has picked up some studs throughout the rounds and in FA and UFA.
We still have a strong core made up from the likes of CHJ, Brandon Marshall, Domata Peko,
Ron Leary, Matt Paradis, C.J. Anderson, Darian Stewart, Shelby Harris, Zach Kerr, and
others, to go along with those who were supposed to make it, such as Justin Simmons,
Adam Gotsis, Garrett Bolles, DT, Emannuel, Von, Talib, Wolfe, Roby, et al.


I think it’s more important to build some momentum these last few games, if they can, and
go into next year with this core and a good draft and FA season. And see what they can do
to pick up at least a good journeyman QB. If they can do that, we’ll be rooting for
contenders again. I feel pretty assured of that.

[underrated29]

So many are panting like a thirsty deer for the high #1 pick. But winning teams are not
formed by single high first round picks. They are formed by assembling talent from picks
througout the draft and FA signings. Witness the Patriots. When’s the last time they had
a first five pick? The Broncos had one, and the rest of the years they picked near the
bottom of the first round. And they won the Division five straight years and went to the
Super Bowl twice, winning one.


Frankly, I’m not concerned where the Broncos pick in the first round. It’s how they pick in
the first seven rounds, and what they do in FA. Elway has whiffed on a few in the first
couple rounds, but he has picked up some studs throughout the rounds and in FA and UFA.
We still have a strong core made up from the likes of CHJ, Brandon Marshall, Domata Peko,
Ron Leary, Matt Paradis, C.J. Anderson, Darian Stewart, Shelby Harris, Zach Kerr, and
others, to go along with those who were supposed to make it, such as Justin Simmons,
Adam Gotsis, Garrett Bolles, DT, Emannuel, Von, Talib, Wolfe, Roby, et al.


I think it’s more important to build some momentum these last few games, if they can, and
go into next year with this core and a good draft and FA season. And see what they can do
to pick up at least a good journeyman QB. If they can do that, we’ll be rooting for
contenders again. I feel pretty assured of that.



Overall I agree with your point, but the patriots are only good because of brady. They have not drafted well and once brady is gone their team will be hot garbage. Brady is what keeps that team in the playoffs. After he is out, they do not have a talented squad and they will go down badly.

[Buff]

Pretty crappy outcomes yesterday - for a minute it looked like NYG, Indy, Cleveland and SF might all win... Instead only SF won and then we managed the dub too.

[topscribe]

Overall I agree with your point, but the patriots are only good because of brady. They have not drafted well and once brady is gone their team will be hot garbage. Brady is what keeps that team in the playoffs. After he is out, they do not have a talented squad and they will go down badly.
Yes, and where was Brady drafted? He replaced a first-rounder in Bledsoe, remember.
And you remember when Brady went down for the better part of a year? They still went 11-5
with a QB who is not longer in the league, far as I know. And, IIRC, Brady was suspended
the first four games last year, and they still went 3-1. So there's more than Brady there.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Pretty crappy outcomes yesterday - for a minute it looked like NYG, Indy, Cleveland and SF might all win... Instead only SF won and then we managed the dub too.

It was going to be hard to lose out to the Browns and Giants anyway. Looks like we'll have the pick of the 3rd best QB anyway (unless we keep winning....).

[Nomad]

Has Darnold committed to the NFL draft? I haven't seen that he has. Let the Browns have Rosen. Who is the next QB on the list?

[Hawgdriver]

Has Darnold committed to the NFL draft? I haven't seen that he has. Let the Browns have Rosen. Who is the next QB on the list?

The flavor of the day is Mayfield. So you see these guys taken in mock drafts in the first round:

Rosen
Darnold
Mayfield
Jackson
Allen

[Rick]

If we actually select a QB in this draft I am hoping for Mayfield.

Give me a QB that is accurate and doesn't throw picks.

[Nomad]

Mayfield is being compared to Brees and Wilson. Like Rosen, he has mental issues.

[Buff]

It was going to be hard to lose out to the Browns and Giants anyway. Looks like we'll have the pick of the 3rd best QB anyway (unless we keep winning....).

Operation obtain Kirk Cousins looking more and more viable.

[Hawgdriver]

Mayfield is being compared to Brees and Wilson. Like Rosen, he has mental issues.

Tebow is high on Mayfield...

8K3iEZW98jw

legal disclosure: for every read/click 5% of proceeds go to Falco's Bring Back Tebow® foundation.

[underrated29]

Yes, and where was Brady drafted? He replaced a first-rounder in Bledsoe, remember.
And you remember when Brady went down for the better part of a year? They still went 11-5
with a QB who is not longer in the league, far as I know. And, IIRC, Brady was suspended
the first four games last year, and they still went 3-1. So there's more than Brady there.


Well lets be fair here. The year they went 11-5 was like 10 years ago and they had gone undefeated the year prior. Also, like 10 years ago. Their team is pretty barren now. They have drafted very very poorly in recent years. When he was suspended they did go 3-1, one of them against the second worst team in the league and another they won, iirc, on a fumble in the RZ where they kicked a FG.

They got brady in the 6th and did great at drafting then. But the last 5 years or so they have not drafted well. They have had to sign and trade for guys. IF brady were to go down they would likely be bounced from the playoffs in the first round....Although the afc sucks this year so who knows.

[topscribe]

Well lets be fair here. The year they went 11-5 was like 10 years ago and they had gone undefeated the year prior. Also, like 10 years ago. Their team is pretty barren now. They have drafted very very poorly in recent years. When he was suspended they did go 3-1, one of them against the second worst team in the league and another they won, iirc, on a fumble in the RZ where they kicked a FG.

They got brady in the 6th and did great at drafting then. But the last 5 years or so they have not drafted well. They have had to sign and trade for guys. IF brady were to go down they would likely be bounced from the playoffs in the first round....Although the afc sucks this year so who knows.
You've gone absolutely off my point. The point is how winning teams are built. Whether the
Patriots did it last year or in the 17th century is moot. They did it. The Broncos did it. And
I could probably dig up a host of other teams who have done it.

The fact is the Broncos did not win the Division five years in a row and go to the Super Bowl
twice with a gaggle of first-round draft choices. The did it with solid players taken throughout
the rounds and in FA and UFA. That is not debatable. So my point is that I don't place as
critical importance on drafting in the top five as some do. I try to look at the big picture.

Oh, and by the way, the Broncos didn't win the Super Bowl with Peyton Manning in his
prime. He was essentially at journeyman level by that time (not to mention several games
having been played by Osweiler). It was those mid- to lower draft choices and FAs who won
the Super Bowl.

[Cugel]

Well lets be fair here. The year they went 11-5 was like 10 years ago and they had gone undefeated the year prior. Also, like 10 years ago. Their team is pretty barren now. They have drafted very very poorly in recent years. When he was suspended they did go 3-1, one of them against the second worst team in the league and another they won, iirc, on a fumble in the RZ where they kicked a FG.

They got brady in the 6th and did great at drafting then. But the last 5 years or so they have not drafted well. They have had to sign and trade for guys. IF brady were to go down they would likely be bounced from the playoffs in the first round....Although the afc sucks this year so who knows.

People always talk about Brady being drafted in the 6th round, but that was in 2000. It was a long ass time ago and it hasn't happened since. I didn't have grey hair in 2000. A lot has changed. A HOF QB will conceal a lot of bad drafting. On a team like the Broncos with mediocre to garbage QBs the QBs conceal nothing. Every flaw is brutally exposed.

[Cugel]

You've gone absolutely off my point. The point is how winning teams are built. Whether the
Patriots did it last year or in the 17th century is moot. They did it. The Broncos did it. And
I could probably dig up a host of other teams who have done it.


SB winning teams are built by drafting a top 10- Qb, developing him for a couple of years and then building around him. That formula doesn't work more times than it does, but it's virtually the only thing that works.

Once every decade a team like the '85 Bears or the 2000 Ravens or the 2002 Bucs or the 2015 Broncos manages to win the SB based on historically great defense. But, it never lasts since the great defenders leave via retirement, FA and their replacements inevitably aren't as good so it never happens to the same team twice. The Bears have been trying to replicate their SB Shuffle team since 1986 but it never worked out for them.

The Broncos d has lost Ware, Ward, Trevathan, Malik Jackson and none of that leadership and production has been replaced. Another failed year and the defense gets older and further away from the SB.

They now have a good but not great defense. As for the offense we know what has happened to that since 2013. Nothing good. Hence a team that might go 5-11 or 6-10 this year.

[topscribe]

SB winning teams are built by drafting a top 10- Qb, developing him for a couple of years and then building around him. That formula doesn't work more times than it does, but it's virtually the only thing that works.

Once every decade a team like the '85 Bears or the 2000 Ravens or the 2002 Bucs or the 2015 Broncos manages to win the SB based on historically great defense. But, it never lasts since the great defenders leave via retirement, FA and their replacements inevitably aren't as good so it never happens to the same team twice. The Bears have been trying to replicate their SB Shuffle team since 1986 but it never worked out for them.

The Broncos d has lost Ware, Ward, Trevathan, Malik Jackson and none of that leadership and production has been replaced. Another failed year and the defense gets older and further away from the SB.

They now have a good but not great defense. As for the offense we know what has happened to that since 2013. Nothing good. Hence a team that might go 5-11 or 6-10 this year.
Good grief.

[underrated29]

You've gone absolutely off my point. The point is how winning teams are built. Whether the
Patriots did it last year or in the 17th century is moot. They did it. The Broncos did it. And
I could probably dig up a host of other teams who have done it.

The fact is the Broncos did not win the Division five years in a row and go to the Super Bowl
twice with a gaggle of first-round draft choices. The did it with solid players taken throughout
the rounds and in FA and UFA. That is not debatable. So my point is that I don't place as
critical importance on drafting in the top five as some do. I try to look at the big picture.

Oh, and by the way, the Broncos didn't win the Super Bowl with Peyton Manning in his
prime. He was essentially at journeyman level by that time (not to mention several games
having been played by Osweiler). It was those mid- to lower draft choices and FAs who won
the Super Bowl.



BUt all I can do now is agree with you

[topscribe]

BUt all I can do now is agree with you
'Bout time. I won't have to unfriend you now. :D

[Freyaka]

Ya cut roby then, you long winded ego trip.

I don't like it, but the writing is on the wall. Talib likely won't be here next year. Sucks, but it is what it is.

[Freyaka]

Has Darnold committed to the NFL draft? I haven't seen that he has. Let the Browns have Rosen. Who is the next QB on the list?

He's afraid of becoming a Brown, can't blame him.

[Buff]

I don't like it, but the writing is on the wall. Talib likely won't be here next year. Sucks, but it is what it is.

What writing is on what wall? He's got two years left on his deal at an undermarket rate. Beyond fan speculation and the presence of Bradley Roby, what indicators do we have that he'll be gone?

[MOtorboat]

SB winning teams are built by drafting a top 10- Qb, developing him for a couple of years and then building around him. That formula doesn't work more times than it does, but it's virtually the only thing that works.

I’m all in on the draft a quarterback early bandwagon, but this is 100 percent false. 5 of the last 10 Super Bowl winners did it this way, and the last four didn’t do it this way.

[Slick]

What writing is on what wall? He's got two years left on his deal at an undermarket rate. Beyond fan speculation and the presence of Bradley Roby, what indicators do we have that he'll be gone?

Some guy on sports talk radio?

[Cugel]

What writing is on what wall? He's got two years left on his deal at an undermarket rate. Beyond fan speculation and the presence of Bradley Roby, what indicators do we have that he'll be gone?

The fact that he's making $12m a year next year and Roby is scheduled to make $8.5 now, and Chris Harris is making $11m. That's over $30m on CBs!

The fans don't take salary cap issues into account but teams do. They drafted Roby with the idea that Talib would be here for a couple of years until his contract expired or until they needed the cap room, and they drafted Roby to take his place.

They will need to spend more money in FA to get a veteran QB so they need to find cap savings everywhere else they can. Plus, it does not appear that Talib really wants to be here.

A lot of defenders who came here to play with Peyton for the SB don't want to be here with a rebuilding team that is 5-11 and drafting a rookie QB. This is Talib's last deal. He wants to get paid and he will get paid, just not by Denver. Plus it only costs them $1m to get rid of him now.

It's a no brainer really. All the signs line up one way. Of course, if they weren't happy with Roby's development, then maybe they keep Talib, but they like Roby and he's cheaper. A lot cheaper.

[Cugel]

Some guy on sports talk radio?

Some guys on Sports radio named Mike Klis, Alfred Williams, and Ray Crockett. Don't believe it if you don't want to. I'd give it about an 80% chance of happening. Don't be surprised when it does.

[Cugel]

I’m all in on the draft a quarterback early bandwagon, but this is 100 percent false. 5 of the last 10 Super Bowl winners did it this way, and the last four didn’t do it this way.

You are not taking into account that Tom Brady is the exception. Only getting a late round QB who turns out to be Tom Brady is like a giant space rock hitting the earth and wiping out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. That ain't happening again any time soon.

[Freyaka]

What writing is on what wall? He's got two years left on his deal at an undermarket rate. Beyond fan speculation and the presence of Bradley Roby, what indicators do we have that he'll be gone?

You may interpret the writing different (not that there's anything wrong with that) But it is there. We've got Roby behind him, we need the money (depending on if we sign a vet QB) It doesn't matter if it is undermarket, it's still a hell of a lot of money tied into one skill position. It's a luxury we probably will not be able to afford.

I'm not advocating him gone, I like him, but I think he makes a likely cut, nothing to bunch your panties over if you think I'm wrong and see things differently.

[Rick]

You are not taking into account that Tom Brady is the exception. Only getting a late round QB who turns out to be Tom Brady is like a giant space rock hitting the earth and wiping out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. That ain't happening again any time soon.

I would argue that the first round pick QB being a SB winning franchise guy is also an exception considering all of the high first round pick QBs that have been busts.

It is a crap shoot. You take an educated guess and hope to hell it pans out.

[MOtorboat]

You are not taking into account that Tom Brady is the exception. Only getting a late round QB who turns out to be Tom Brady is like a giant space rock hitting the earth and wiping out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. That ain't happening again any time soon.

Tom Brady - 6th round
Peyton Manning - Free agent
Drew Brees - Free agent
Russell Wilson - 3rd round

That’s the last four. And only even one of them was a top 10 pick at one time. Sorry, it is not a blanket “that’s how it’s done” argument. Your statement was false.

[Buff]

The fact that he's making $12m a year next year and Roby is scheduled to make $8.5 now, and Chris Harris is making $11m. That's over $30m on CBs!

The fans don't take salary cap issues into account but teams do. They drafted Roby with the idea that Talib would be here for a couple of years until his contract expired or until they needed the cap room, and they drafted Roby to take his place.

They will need to spend more money in FA to get a veteran QB so they need to find cap savings everywhere else they can. Plus, it does not appear that Talib really wants to be here.

A lot of defenders who came here to play with Peyton for the SB don't want to be here with a rebuilding team that is 5-11 and drafting a rookie QB. This is Talib's last deal. He wants to get paid and he will get paid, just not by Denver. Plus it only costs them $1m to get rid of him now.

It's a no brainer really. All the signs line up one way. Of course, if they weren't happy with Roby's development, then maybe they keep Talib, but they like Roby and he's cheaper. A lot cheaper.

It's NOT a no-brainer though and that's why you take endless amounts of shit for your overly declarative opinions. Why would it be a no-brainer to cut our 2016 All Pro, team captain and 4x Pro Bowler? It's a possibility but by no means a foregone conclusion.

We're paying ~$23.5 for the trio this year. Paying ~$30.5 next year might be unlikely but not out of the realm of possibility.

There are a lot of ways to make it work without cutting him too, like restructuring Roby, Talib or both.

I wonder if there is some win-now team who might want to trade for Talib's under-market contract too. That would be worth exploring.

[BroncoJoe]

Cugel can't even get who we've beat right, so...

[MOtorboat]

And now that I think about it. Roethlisberger wasn’t a top 10 pick either.

[Freyaka]

Tom Brady - 6th round
Peyton Manning - Free agent
Drew Brees - Free agent
Russell Wilson - 3rd round

That’s the last four. And only even one of them was a top 10 pick at one time. Sorry, it is not a blanket “that’s how it’s done” argument. Your statement was false.

That's a bit of a twisting of the facts to fit your narrative. Half of those players were originally taken high in the first round, just not by the team that inherited them.

[Freyaka]

It's NOT a no-brainer though and that's why you take endless amounts of shit for your overly declarative opinions. Why would it be a no-brainer to cut our 2016 All Pro, team captain and 4x Pro Bowler? It's a possibility but by no means a foregone conclusion.

We're paying ~$23.5 for the trio this year. Paying ~$30.5 next year might be unlikely but not out of the realm of possibility.

There are a lot of ways to make it work without cutting him too, like restructuring Roby, Talib or both.

I wonder if there is some win-now team who might want to trade for Talib's under-market contract too. That would be worth exploring.

Jaguars seem to always want our players...Though, they've got a fantastic secondary already.

[Hawgdriver]

You are not taking into account that Tom Brady is the exception. Only getting a late round QB who turns out to be Tom Brady is like a giant space rock hitting the earth and wiping out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. That ain't happening again any time soon.

Cugel--impact event prognosticator.

https://media.giphy.com/media/BgxzfPF5ciNRm/giphy.gif

[Buff]

You may interpret the writing different (not that there's anything wrong with that) But it is there. We've got Roby behind him, we need the money (depending on if we sign a vet QB) It doesn't matter if it is undermarket, it's still a hell of a lot of money tied into one skill position. It's a luxury we probably will not be able to afford.

I'm not advocating him gone, I like him, but I think he makes a likely cut, nothing to bunch your panties over if you think I'm wrong and see things differently.

I am saying that it's totally possible that Talib gets cut - but this idea that it's a foregone conclusion, or even that it's highly likely don't seem to be based on anything other than fan speculation because we drafted Bradley Roby and conventional football wisdom says that the young guy replaces the vet... Except that Talib is still playing at a really high level and makes less than he'd command on the open market (in theory).

It's entirely possible that he's gone next year - but I'm just saying that if you dig a little deeper there are a ton of other outcomes that also make sense.

[Rick]

That's a bit of a twisting of the facts to fit your narrative. Half of those players were originally taken high in the first round, just not by the team that inherited them.

A-lot?

Of those 4 only PM was a first round pick.

But to argue the point, last 10 superbowls:

2016 - Brady 6th round pick.
2015 - Manning, team won because of the defense, but Manning was a first round pick.
2014 - Brady 6th round pick, beat Wilson third round pick.
2013 - Wilson, third round pick.
2012 - Joe Flacco 18th pick, beat 2nd round pick Kapernick.
2011 - Eli Manning beat 6th round pick Brady with the help of a defensive beat down.
2010 - Aaron Rodgers, 24th pick, beat Rothesburger 11th pick.
2009 - 2nd round pick Brees beat first round pick Manning.
2008 - 11th pick Rothesburger beat undrafted Warner.
2007 - First round pick Eli Manning beat 6th round pick Brady.

I will agree that having that franchise guy sure as hell helps, I will argue against though that he has to be a top 10 pick.

[MOtorboat]

That's a bit of a twisting of the facts to fit your narrative. Half of those players were originally taken high in the first round, just not by the team that inherited them.

No. Just one of the three.

[topscribe]

A-lot?

Of those 4 only PM was a first round pick.

But to argue the point, last 10 superbowls:

2016 - Brady 6th round pick.
2015 - Manning, team won because of the defense, but Manning was a first round pick.
2014 - Brady 6th round pick, beat Wilson third round pick.
2013 - Wilson, third round pick.
2012 - Joe Flacco 18th pick, beat 2nd round pick Kapernick.
2011 - Eli Manning beat 6th round pick Brady with the help of a defensive beat down.
2010 - Aaron Rodgers, 24th pick, beat Rothesburger 11th pick.
2009 - 2nd round pick Brees beat first round pick Manning.
2008 - 11th pick Rothesburger beat undrafted Warner.
2007 - First round pick Eli Manning beat 6th round pick Brady.

I will agree that having that franchise guy sure as hell helps, I will argue against though that he has to be a top 10 pick.
Warner, yes, forgot about him. That's another one . . .

[Rick]

With QB, if you have a pick high enough to go for 1 of the top QBs, a guy that your scouting says yes, he is a franchise guy, then I agree you have to take a shot.

But to take a pick on a QB simply because he is a QB in the year you are picking top 10 and needing a QB, is just wrong.

QB to me is the toughest position to scout, you have to take one of the 1-3 possible home runs or pass to later and take a surer pick and take a chance on a QB with intangibles and upside later.

[topscribe]

With QB, if you have a pick high enough to go for 1 of the top QBs, a guy that your scouting says yes, he is a franchise guy, then I agree you have to take a shot.

But to take a pick on a QB simply because he is a QB in the year you are picking top 10 and needing a QB, is just wrong.

QB to me is the toughest position to scout, you have to take one of the 1-3 possible home runs or pass to later and take a surer pick and take a chance on a QB with intangibles and upside later.
Yes, I'm sure the teams were excited who got to pick Ryan Leaf, JaMarcus Russell, Steve
Spurrier, Colin Kaepernick, Tommy Maddox, etc. By the same token, in addition to Kurt
Warner, Tom Brady, and the like, you can go clear back to HOFers Johnny Unitas and Bart
Starr, who were selected so late in those drafts that they today wouldn't even be considered
as UFAs. I'm just not too excited about losing enough games to get the chance to roll the
dice on an unproven player.

[Rick]

Yes, I'm sure the teams were excited who got to pick Ryan Leaf, JaMarcus Russell, Steve
Spurrier, Colin Kaepernick, Tommy Maddox, etc. By the same token, in addition to Kurt
Warner, Tom Brady, and the like, you can go clear back to HOFers Johnny Unitas and Bart
Starr, who were selected so late in those drafts that they today wouldn't even be considered
as UFAs. I'm just not too excited about losing enough games to get the chance to roll the
dice on an unproven player.

No arguments from me, it is a total crap shoot.

[Northman]

There is nothing wrong with taking a QB high in the draft, you just have to do your homework on said player. Every player at every position is a crap shoot but if you do your homework and research than more times than not your selections will pan out. Denver's biggest mistake was taking a project in the first round while having a very green 7th rounder in front of him. Thats called NOT doing your homework and what Rick said about drafting a QB for the sake of drafting which is a bad way to go. But if Denver has a chance at the top 3 prospects and they do their due diligence they can come away with a great pick. Nothing wrong with tanking for a chance at a better prospect than what we have because what we have sucks.

[topscribe]

There is nothing wrong with taking a QB high in the draft, you just have to do your homework on said player. Every player at every position is a crap shoot but if you do your homework and research than more times than not your selections will pan out. Denver's biggest mistake was taking a project in the first round while having a very green 7th rounder in front of him. Thats called NOT doing your homework and what Rick said about drafting a QB for the sake of drafting which is a bad way to go. But if Denver has a chance at the top 3 prospects and they do their due diligence they can come away with a great pick. Nothing wrong with tanking for a chance at a better prospect than what we have because what we have sucks.
I guess I'm just old school. In my day, it was called "sand bagging," and it was severely
frowned upon. When we went into a game, we thought of only one thing: winning it. Trust
me, even those players yesterday, that was all they had in mind. They didn't care in the
least about draft choices. All they cared about was having the bigger number on their side
of the scoreboard.

[Hawgdriver]

It would be great to draft high if you didn't have to be a loser to do it.

[Northman]

I guess I'm just old school. In my day, it was called "sand bagging," and it was severely
frowned upon. When we went into a game, we thought of only one thing: winning it. Trust
me, even those players yesterday, that was all they had in mind. They didn't care in the
least about draft choices. All they cared about was having the bigger number on their side
of the scoreboard.

I dont care what they had in mind, i care about the Broncos going forward. I care about getting the best talent possible on this team to win championships. Old school has nothing to do with it really because the other thing about old school was players use to be teamers for life, not so anymore. Now they are nothing more than mercs for hire and so as long as they get paid most of them dont care who they play for. Guys like Wolfe are OLD SCHOOL in that sense because he shows he actually wants to be here. As far as sand bagging, well they have already done that this year Top in case you havent noticed. The fact they managed to get up and beat up on a bad Jets team with backup QB's is great and all but doesnt help us this year whatsoever. They should of thought about "caring" like 8 games ago. Now is the time to start planning for the long run, now is the time to not be short sighted about hollow wins. We need everyone on board to make this team better with the best possible scenarios out there.

With all that said, enjoy your win yesterday as a fan. I wont try to take that from you but it does nothing for me personally. Im looking at the bigger picture here not a quick pick me up against scrubs.

[Nomad]

How do we know Elway is interested in the so called "top" QBs....Rosen, (Louisville QB), or Darnold (that's if he enters). He may be interested in Mayfield, or Allen, and they'll be there if the BRONCOS win a game or 2. I see Elway taking the BPA, anyway.

[topscribe]

I dont care what they had in mind, i care about the Broncos going forward. I care about getting the best talent possible on this team to win championships. Old school has nothing to do with it really because the other thing about old school was players use to be teamers for life, not so anymore. Now they are nothing more than mercs for hire and so as long as they get paid most of them dont care who they play for. Guys like Wolfe are OLD SCHOOL in that sense because he shows he actually wants to be here. As far as sand bagging, well they have already done that this year Top in case you havent noticed. The fact they managed to get up and beat up on a bad Jets team with backup QB's is great and all but doesnt help us this year whatsoever. They should of thought about "caring" like 8 games ago. Now is the time to start planning for the long run, now is the time to not be short sighted about hollow wins. We need everyone on board to make this team better with the best possible scenarios out there. With all that said, enjoy your win yesterday as a fan. I wont try to take that from you but it does nothing for me personally. Im looking at the bigger picture here not a quick pick me up against scrubs.

Well, you care about that, and so do some other fans. Yet other fans disagree with you.
As long as there's a game to play, the objective is to win it. You cannot ask players to
do anything else. Just grin and bear it because that's what they're going to do if they can.

[spikerman]

How do we know Elway is interested in the so called "top" QBs....Rosen, (Louisville QB), or Darnold (that's if he enters). He may be interested in Mayfield, or Allen, and they'll be there if the BRONCOS win a game or 2. I see Elway taking the BPA, anyway.
If the Broncos go into next year with the same 3 QBs you may see the fans storm Mile High with pitchforks and torches.

[Nomad]

If the Broncos go into next year with the same 3 QBs you may see the fans storm Mile High with pitchforks and torches.

Do you really believe this? You really believe Elway ignores the position? This QB draft class is average. I'm almost on Buff's Cousins bandwagon.

[spikerman]

Do you really believe this? You really believe Elway ignores the position? This QB draft class is average. I'm almost on Buff's Cousins bandwagon.

Denver can’t afford him. I think he’s good, but not elite.

[Hawgdriver]

Cousins costs too much.

[Nomad]

Denver can’t afford him. I think he’s good, but not elite.

It seems the Mayfield & Allen trains are starting, perhaps jump on one of these? I'm not sure Darnold is entering the draft this year, and Rosen is going to be a Brown (if Darnold stays in college). Not sure about this Louisville QB.

[Nomad]

Funny....you look at all the mock drafts, and no one has Denver picking a QB.

[EastCoastBronco]

The O-Line needs to be fixed before we draft a QB.
That seems pretty simple to me.
Our shitty running game is all the proof of this we need.
I haven't seen any great looking QB's in this draft so we might as well beef up the line, see if there are any good FA QB's out there and see what happens.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Funny....you look at all the mock drafts, and no one has Denver picking a QB.

I think that’s because people, other than Broncos fans, still think that Siemian is good enough to start (puke) or that Lynch will develop into a starting caliber QB :rolleyes:

The media types still think like Shazam that it’s all the oline’s fault and that our QBs are fine...

[Cugel]

If the Broncos go into next year with the same 3 QBs you may see the fans storm Mile High with pitchforks and torches.

Worse. They will stay away in droves. That will tank the team revenues because stadium revenues are a big part of their income. That will put pressure on the Bowlen family to do something. And the thing to do at that point will be to put John Elway on the hot seat. His job will be on the line if they start losing a lot of money. They are paying him to win. A lot. $$$

[Cugel]

Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
How do we know Elway is interested in the so called "top" QBs....Rosen, (Louisville QB), or Darnold (that's if he enters). He may be interested in Mayfield, or Allen, and they'll be there if the BRONCOS win a game or 2. I see Elway taking the BPA, anyway.


That BPA is all bull anyway. Teams talk about "best player available" but they always mean "best player available at a position of need." Not, hopefully, dire need like last year when they "needed" a LT, because then you wind up drafting the best player available at a certain position and that guy may not be worth it, but "yeah, we could probably use a guy at that position." That kind of need.

Ex: Broncos drafted Bradley Roby #1 because he fell to them and he was highest on their boards and you can always use another CB even though it wasn't their biggest need since they already had 2 good starting CBs.

Drafting for need is when the Broncos drafted Paxton Lynch because they desperately needed a future franchise qB since Osweiler walked and Lynch was the best available prospect at that position at a draft slot they could afford to reach by trading up a bit while not paying too much (a 3rd round pick).

If that kind of pick works out it's mostly a matter of luck.

This is different. We don't know which QB Elway wants but he is going to take the best QB he can get, even if he has to trade up. But, only if he's convinced that guy is his future franchise QB.

If not, then there's no point. Might as well trade back and select a QB later in the first round while stockpiling maybe a 3rd round pick or something. Might even try and trade further down and select a QB in the 2nd round if he's not happy with his pick at #7 or something, and he can't afford to move up and get a top 2 QB (too much demanded by the Colts or something).

The Broncos are drafting in the top 10, not at 26. So, Elway can probably get a QB he's happy with and not have to reach.

[Cugel]

If you simply draft best player available regardless of need, you wind up like Matt Millen drafting a WR in the first round several years in a row while the Lions desperately needed just about everything else. They wound up ultimately with Megatron, but Millen became a laughing stock and got fired.

[Hawgdriver]

I think that’s because people, other than Broncos fans, still think that Siemian is good enough to start (puke) or that Lynch will develop into a starting caliber QB :rolleyes:

The media types still think like Shazam that it’s all the oline’s fault and that our QBs are fine...

Siemian is 80% our starter come Sept 2018. The 20% is if we get Cousins, Brees, etc.

[Hawgdriver]

That BPA is all bull anyway. Teams talk about "best player available" but they always mean "best player available at a position of need." Not, hopefully, dire need like last year when they "needed" a LT, because then you wind up drafting the best player available at a certain position and that guy may not be worth it, but "yeah, we could probably use a guy at that position." That kind of need.

Ex: Broncos drafted Bradley Roby #1 because he fell to them and he was highest on their boards and you can always use another CB even though it wasn't their biggest need since they already had 2 good starting CBs.

Drafting for need is when the Broncos drafted Paxton Lynch because they desperately needed a future franchise qB since Osweiler walked and Lynch was the best available prospect at that position at a draft slot they could afford to reach by trading up a bit while not paying too much (a 3rd round pick).

If that kind of pick works out it's mostly a matter of luck.

This is different. We don't know which QB Elway wants but he is going to take the best QB he can get, even if he has to trade up. But, only if he's convinced that guy is his future franchise QB.

If not, then there's no point. Might as well trade back and select a QB later in the first round while stockpiling maybe a 3rd round pick or something. Might even try and trade further down and select a QB in the 2nd round if he's not happy with his pick at #7 or something, and he can't afford to move up and get a top 2 QB (too much demanded by the Colts or something).

The Broncos are drafting in the top 10, not at 26. So, Elway can probably get a QB he's happy with and not have to reach.

323 words: Broncos will draft QB, probably.

[Tned]

If the Broncos go into next year with the same 3 QBs you may see the fans storm Mile High with pitchforks and torches.

I'll be surprised if it's the same 3 QBs. I figured it's something like 50/50 they draft a QB early, 100% they draft a QB someplace.

I figured Brock is gone, and you will have Siemian, Lynch, Kelly and one other QB starting camp. From that, one, possibly two, gets cut before the start of the season.

[Tned]

Siemian is 80% our starter come Sept 2018. The 20% is if we get Cousins, Brees, etc.

This is a post I made on 11/27, and I still feel this is about right. Meaning, pretty close to 50/50 that Siemian will be the starter at the start of 2018.


Around this time last year I predicted the Broncos 2017 starter in roughly these numbers:

50% Siemian
35% Lynch
15% Not on Broncos roster

Right now, I would put the likelihood of the '18 starter as:
45% Siemian
35% Not on Broncos roster
10% Lynch
10% Kelly

Major math problems there for a moment.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I'll be surprised if it's the same 3 QBs. I figured it's something like 50/50 they draft a QB early, 100% they draft a QB someplace.

I figured Brock is gone, and you will have Siemian, Lynch, Kelly and one other QB starting camp. From that, one, possibly two, gets cut before the start of the season.

The thought of that being our QB bullpen going into next year is extremely depressing unless Kelly somehow can become “the man” in the offseason. I’m completely done with Siemian and have no faith in Lynch anymore. Next year will be much the same as this year unless we fix the QB position.

[Slick]

If they trot Siemian out there in 2018 I'm going to kick a random stranger in the nuts.

[dogfish]

Siemian is 80% our starter come Sept 2018. The 20% is if we get Cousins, Brees, etc.

i would bet against it. . . i can't see it happening. . . i think it's either a free agent or a rookie. . . we tried to roll out trev as a starter this year, and we got our asses handed to us-- john hasn't forgotten, and he doesn't love losing. . . this is twice we've failed to make the playoffs with TS, i can't see us going back to that well again. . .

besides, have some compassion-- you're gonna give MO an aneurism with that talk. . .

[Hawgdriver]

i would bet against it. . . i can't see it happening. . . i think it's either a free agent or a rookie. . . we tried to roll out trev as a starter this year, and we got our asses handed to us-- john hasn't forgotten, and he doesn't love losing. . . this is twice we've failed to make the playoffs with TS, i can't see us going back to that well again. . .

besides, have some compassion-- you're gonna give MO an aneurism with that talk. . .

Siemian will start and Darnold will roll in week 8 or something...watch.

[Nomad]

323 words: Broncos will draft QB, probably.

Elway is 0-2 on QBs, and 1-1 on BPA with Von. Supposedly, Fitzpatrick (Bama) is high in the rankings of defensive players in this draft. Who knows what Elway is thinking? He could trade back as far as we know.

Very average QB class this draft.

[Hawgdriver]

Very average QB class this draft.

With a lot of teams in need of a QB.

[Tned]

i would bet against it. . . i can't see it happening. . . i think it's either a free agent or a rookie. . . we tried to roll out trev as a starter this year, and we got our asses handed to us-- john hasn't forgotten, and he doesn't love losing. . . this is twice we've failed to make the playoffs with TS, i can't see us going back to that well again. . .

besides, have some compassion-- you're gonna give MO an aneurism with that talk. . .

I hear what you are saying, but in the end, it's going to be which wells are dry in training camp/preseason and which ones have water. If for the third season in a row, Siemian wins the job, and there isn't a talent rich, just not quite ready, option sitting closely behind him, then there is a pretty good chance they see if the third time is the charm.

Unless Elway goes all in on Brees/Cousins (if either/both are free agents), then your best choices are Bradford, Keenum, Cutler, McCown, Geno Smith, Gabbert, Osweiler and then it gets really thin from there. Garappolo if he isn't resigned.

Keenum had a solid year, but he hasn't exactly had a spectacular career. If Cutler doesn't retire again, he can clearly still play. Bradford shows flashes when not injured.

Not a lot of inspired choices out there after Brees and possibly the very, very expensive Cousins.

[underrated29]

If they trot Siemian out there in 2018 I'm going to kick a random stranger in the nuts.

If they trot out siemian out there in 2018 I hope that I am that stranger.

[Nomad]

With a lot of teams in need of a QB.

Throw the QBs names in a hat, shake it up, and see who is picked. Or.......the dartboard. LoL

[underrated29]

Elway is 0-2 on QBs, and 1-1 on BPA with Von. Supposedly, Fitzpatrick (Bama) is high in the rankings of defensive players in this draft. Who knows what Elway is thinking? He could trade back as far as we know.

Very average QB class this draft.



From what little draft research I have done this year this is actually a good year, a very good year to be in the QB market.


Brees, Eli, Cousins and a few others...Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, Lamar, Allen..........thats 6-8 potentials. I have a very very very very good feeling about Rosen and Darnold could very well end up being a legit QB in the pros too.

[topscribe]

Elway is 0-2 on QBs, and 1-1 on BPA with Von. Supposedly, Fitzpatrick (Bama) is high in the rankings of defensive players in this draft. Who knows what Elway is thinking? He could trade back as far as we know.

Very average QB class this draft.
I think we're jumping the gun a bit on Lynch and our QBs in general. Yes, they have had a rough start. But my mind goes back to Peyton's first year and Elway's first couple years. I remember when we were going into Elway's second year that a segment of the fan base wanted him gone. That's how bad he was at times. Well, we know how that ended.

I'm not trying to equate either Lynch or Siemian with Elway or Peyton. I'm just saying that, as VJ has reminded us several times, the team's problems involve more than one player, even the QB. I would really like to see both of them behind more competent O-lines and better play calling. We did see a semblance of that Sunday.

The loser in this may be Lynch because Siemian is apparently going to finish out the season, from what I hear. And now, if the team has a chance at one of the two top draft candidates, that recruit will become the heir apparent, and Lynch's career with the Broncos may be over before it really got started. If Siemian doesn't make it, okay, so we or somebody has a backup QB. But the Broncos have a lot invested in Lynch. This would be a loss both to him and to the Broncos.

The reality, however, is that the two draft candidates in question will be gone before the Broncos' selection comes up. If they win one more game, the Broncos probably will have played themselves out of the top five, and they face a pathetic Colts team this Thursday. So I see the upcoming year under two scenarios: (1) the Broncos bring in a Cousins or a good journeyman QB or (2) they continue their development of Lynch and Siemian. Neither scenario may be all that bad, IMO. There is a lot of physical talent in all four present QBs on the squad. They just have to determine whether one of them can match that between his ears. But I look for the Broncos to miss out on the elite draft prospects and to look for a trade or FA among existing pros. We'll see . . .

[Freyaka]

If they trot Siemian out there in 2018 I'm going to kick a random stranger in the nuts.

Can I join you? Though I suggest we travel to New England. It will feel more satisfying to kick random patriots fans in the nuts.

I spent all of this year defending Trevor, I can't do that again. If he somehow wins the starting job again, I cannot give him my support again. I don't have a single bit of faith in him going forward.

[Rick]

Can I join you? Though I suggest we travel to New England. It will feel more satisfying to kick random patriots fans in the nuts.

I spent all of this year defending Trevor, I can't do that again. If he somehow wins the starting job again, I cannot give him my support again. I don't have a single bit of faith in him going forward.

Will you identify them as Patriots fans first or assume because they live in New England they must be fans and kick them in the nuts?

I will be living in New England as of June and would prefer my nuts to remain in-tact.

[MOtorboat]

From what little draft research I have done this year this is actually a good year, a very good year to be in the QB market.


Brees, Eli, Cousins and a few others...Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, Lamar, Allen..........thats 6-8 potentials. I have a very very very very good feeling about Rosen and Darnold could very well end up being a legit QB in the pros too.

Browning.

[underrated29]

Browning.


Whats a browning?

[MOtorboat]

Whats a browning?

You should learn about him.

[underrated29]

You should learn about him.

You should enlighten myself and the rest of the board you pit of misery MF'r

[MOtorboat]

You should enlighten myself and the rest of the board you pit of misery MF'r

My love of Browning is well-known. Pay attention UR.

[Rick]

A Brownie. MO just spelled it wrong.

11553

[dogfish]

dilly dilly, MO!

[MOtorboat]

A Brownie. MO just spelled it wrong.

11553

Taller than Mayfield.

[MOtorboat]

dilly dilly, MO!

I’m going to send UR to the pit of misery!

Dilly, dilly!

[Slick]

I don't trust John Elway to draft a good QB. Is there really a can't miss QB this year? They really can't to afford to eff up when they're picking in the top 10, maybe even top 5. I think they should sign a veteran QB and get the best player on the board when they pick.


This whole, you can't take a guard or a RB that high is ridiculous to me. Take a guy who can play.

[dogfish]

I’m going to send UR to the pit of misery!

Dilly, dilly!

okay, cool. . . just get us that browning scouting report before you do, mmkay?

[Tned]

Whats a browning?

.50 caliber? It would be one the designs of the most prolific gun designer in US, nay, world history. A true American hero.