Those who don’t learn from history will never re-achieve past glory

[FanInAZ]

Let’s say Elway does exactly what the majority of this site seems to want. He cuts all of the QBs currently on our roster at the end of the season, and then draft the #1 ranked QB coming out of college and/or available in FA. I’ve no doubt this site will continue to do what it’s been doing more & more since about the time Plummer got benched in favor of Cutler, which just so happens to be the SOP of the Cleveland Browns’ FO for about the last dozen years or so, embracing a policy of 1 strike & you’re out with all new QBs.

I want to make it clear that this isn’t an apologist thread for Lynch, Oz or Siemian. If it was, I’d just add this post to 1 of those threads. I’m just imagining what would be posted on this site if it existed in 1983. For those who have forgotten, or wasn’t old enough to have watched it, Elway’s NFL debut was the biggest debacle by any QB that I’ve ever witnessed. You think the stat lines of our QBs this year have been bad, look at what he did in the 11 games he played in, 10 that he started, during his rookie season:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00/gamelog/1983/

So Elway dropped back to pass 12 times in his debut, but only 1 ended positively, a completed pass for 14 yards. Of the other 11 plays, 5 ended badly, 1 INT & 4 sacks that lost 26 yards. It was even worse than the net yards passing of -12 yards suggests. Although I can’t find any stats source that shows who was actually responsible, but the team stat lines show that the Broncos also had 3 fumbles, 2 of which were lost. I can’t say I can remember with absolute certainty, but I’m sure that Elway was also responsible for at least 1 of those lost fumbles.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/198309040pit.htm

Denver won that game after Steve DeBerg, aided by 7 turnovers that our D racked up, replaced him at halftime. DeBerg also came off the bench in the following week's win. The next 2 games were complete games for Elway, both were losses. In week 5, we were in such a hole by the time Elway was benched that Deberg couldn’t lead us back, resulting in Elway being supplanted as the starter.

His next appearance was week 10 when DeBerg suffered a season ending shoulder injury. We lost that game, but in fairness to Elway, we’re already trailing when he took over. His next to starts resulted in complete game losses. In between those 2 games, Kubiak made his NFL debut with a complete game win at Seattle when Elway missed due to a stomach virus. It wasn’t until his 8th start he actually lead the Broncos to a win. Although his official stat line says Elway was 4-6 as a starter that year, I refuse to give him credit for the 1st 2 wins because it was DeBerg who actually lead us to victory.

His rookie season stat line includes 7 TDs, 14 INT & 28 sacks that led to an unknowable # of lost fumbles. How do these stats compare to those of our current QBs? Of course stats don’t tell you everything, but I did witnessed Elway’s rookie season with my own eyes, and he was horrible. Back in the days of Broncosfreak.com, someone found an archived article (I believe from Sports Illustrated) that was written following that season which denounced Elway as a bust right then and there. I’m so glad that Reeves & the FO ignored such opinions.

I’m not going to try to sell anyone on the idea that any of our current QBs are future HoFers, only that we should cut somebody a break. If not 1 of the guys currently on our roster, then who ever it is that we bring in to replace them. Offensive game plans, as well as defensive schemes, are far more complex than they were in ’83. If it took someone as great as Elway needed as long as it did to master the QB position back when the game was a lot simpler then it is today, don’t you all think it might take a little longer today for those who have a fraction of his raw athleticism & talent?

[Shazam!]

I will reiterate that I believe the OLine is responsible for most of the awfulness on offense. They cannot even reliably EVER give QBs 1.5 solid seconds.

Denver QBs suffer from borderline paranoia knowing they can never drop back amd have a functioning pocket.

Tell me, since the NYG game, when did we see a game that the Defense wasnt consistently in the backfield? How many 'hit as he throws' has there been?

Why can't Denver run the ball with any dependance that works?

Again: its the OLine. I would trade OLines with any team now except Cleveland. They are THAT BAD.

It killed Peyton after the Seattle game and he began to take a real beating in 2014. And every year, it seems to get even worse.

This is why I fear they bring in a Vet like Brees or Manning. They would never survive a whole Season here.

How to fix it? I don't know. Im not sure its a talent issue as it is scheme.

[UnderArmour]

I'm not entirely sold Denver should even take a round 1 QB. The free agent market is going to have a few choices, and the defense could desperately use some interior pass rush help to free up Von. The other glaring issue since JT and Welker left has been the lack of an interior passing threat. This team desperately needs a new Stokely type and/or Butt to develop into a TE that can attack center field.

[Northman]

Let me be very clear here because it has gotten totally lost in the original post.

Brock, Paxton, Trevor are not John Elway. They were not projected to be anywhere NEAR that type of talent so its just not the same thing. Sorry.

What i do agree with is Denver needs to take the opportunity this upcoming draft and take a QB who is projected to be NFL ready. OR, go out and get a like Brees, Brady, Manning, etc and then work on fixing the issues with the Oline and shore that up. But, they NEED, i cant say it with anymore emphasis, NEED a primary QB who is actually the future of the franchise. JE and company have to quit trying to be cute and take the position seriously instead of lame projects. Dump Paxton and Brock, keep Trevor as a backup.

[Mike]

I doubt the problem is fixed next season. The defense will be past it's expiration point by the time the offense is ready to roll...we saw what life without Talib was going to be like yesterday afternoon.

I don't know what they do at QB, but it doesn't matter who comes in to play if the oline isn't addressed as the primary focus. Lynch and Brock are a waste of roster spots, Siemian is a workable backup.

[BigDaddyBronco]

The best option would be to get one of the top 3 QB's in the draft and have him turn into a bonafide starter and potential ProBowl caliber QB. Like a Matt Ryan, Stafford, Roethlisberger type of guy. That being said, it's not easy finding the guy.

going back to 2000 Here are the top 10 QB's per year.

2000
No QB's in top 10

2001
1 Michael Vick

2002
1 David Carr
3 Joey Harrington

2003
1 Carson Palmer
7 Byron Leftwich

2004
1 Eli Manning
4 Phillip Rivers
11 Ben Roethlisberger

2005
1 Alex Smith

2006
3 Vince Young
10 Matt Leinart
11 Jay Cutler

2007
1 JaMarcus Russell

2008
3 Matt Ryan

2009
1 Matt Stafford
5 Mark Sanchez

2010
1 Sam Bradford

2011
1 Cam Newton
8 Jake Locker
10 Blaine Gabbert

2012
1 Andrew Luck
2 RG3
8 Ryan Tannehill

2013
no top 10 picks

2014
3 Blake Bortles

2015
1 Jameis Winston
2 Marcus Mariota

2016
1 Jared Goff
2 Carson Wentz

2017
2 Mitch Trubisky

You can see that unless you are part of a magical QB year like 2004 or 1983, it's just as likely that the QB is hurt or just not that good after 3 or 4 years. Picking a QB in the top 10 is just not a sure fire route to getting that 10+ year franchise QB. This year we will probably have our pick at the 2nd or 3rd best QB in the draft, is he going to be good enough to be the guy?

Another possibility is drafting BPA (hopefully a LT and we can move Bolles to RT) and getting a FA QB like Sam Bradford or maybe a trade for a AJ McCarron or Tyrod Taylor if you can get them for a 2nd rounder. Keep both Siemian and Chad Kelly as we know Siemian can play and maybe be a backup and who knows with Kelly.

I would hate for us to draft like 5th and not get a quality NFL player out of it.

[BroncoJoe]

I think 2016 will turn into a pretty good draft too - if not considered already.

[BigDaddyBronco]

I think 2016 will turn into a pretty good draft too - if not considered already.

Looks that way, but so did 2006 until a few years later.

[FanInAZ]

Let me be very clear here because it has gotten totally lost in the original post.

Brock, Paxton, Trevor are not John Elway. They were not projected to be anywhere NEAR that type of talent so its just not the same thing. Sorry.

What i do agree with is Denver needs to take the opportunity this upcoming draft and take a QB who is projected to be NFL ready. OR, go out and get a like Brees, Brady, Manning, etc and then work on fixing the issues with the Oline and shore that up. But, they NEED, i cant say it with anymore emphasis, NEED a primary QB who is actually the future of the franchise. JE and company have to quit trying to be cute and take the position seriously instead of lame projects. Dump Paxton and Brock, keep Trevor as a backup.

I'm trying to figure out if your saying that I didn't take into account that our QBs don't have near the talent of Elway, or pointing out that every basically ignored my OP and proceeded to make the exact same posts that they're making in all the other threads. So here’s a repost of the last paragraph that clearly states that I’ve no HoF expectations for any of our QBs:


I’m not going to try to sell anyone on the idea that any of our current QBs are future HoFers, only that we should cut somebody a break. If not 1 of the guys currently on our roster, then who ever it is that we bring in to replace them. Offensive game plans, as well as defensive schemes, are far more complex than they were in ’83. If it took someone as great as Elway needed as long as it did to master the QB position back when the game was a lot simpler then it is today, don’t you all think it might take a little longer today for those who have a fraction of his raw athleticism & talent?

As far as who will be our QB in 2018, I don't as long as whoever they choose is given enough time to develop.

[MOtorboat]

A.) You can't compare the passing game in 1983 (or 82, whatever year it was) to now. The game is entirely different today than it was pre-2000.

B.) No one on this team is John Elway or could ever even dream of being John Elway with development time. Elway has made mistakes in identifying quarterback and line talent and it's time try again.

[MOtorboat]

I will reiterate that I believe the OLine is responsible for most of the awfulness on offense. They cannot even reliably EVER give QBs 1.5 solid seconds.

Denver QBs suffer from borderline paranoia knowing they can never drop back amd have a functioning pocket.

Tell me, since the NYG game, when did we see a game that the Defense wasnt consistently in the backfield? How many 'hit as he throws' has there been?

Why can't Denver run the ball with any dependance that works?

Again: its the OLine. I would trade OLines with any team now except Cleveland. They are THAT BAD.

It killed Peyton after the Seattle game and he began to take a real beating in 2014. And every year, it seems to get even worse.

This is why I fear they bring in a Vet like Brees or Manning. They would never survive a whole Season here.

How to fix it? I don't know. Im not sure its a talent issue as it is scheme.

The line is simply not as bad as you want it to be.

[FanInAZ]

A.) You can't compare the passing game in 1983 (or 82, whatever year it was) to now. The game is entirely different today than it was pre-2000.

Yes, not only did I acknowledge this fact, but I also explained how its different:


I’m not going to try to sell anyone on the idea that any of our current QBs are future HoFers, only that we should cut somebody a break. If not 1 of the guys currently on our roster, then who ever it is that we bring in to replace them. Offensive game plans, as well as defensive schemes, are far more complex than they were in ’83. If it took someone as great as Elway needed as long as it did to master the QB position back when the game was a lot simpler then it is today, don’t you all think it might take a little longer today for those who have a fraction of his raw athleticism & talent?


B.) No one on this team is John Elway or could ever even dream of being John Elway with development time. Elway has made mistakes in identifying quarterback and line talent and it's time try again.

A fact that I've already pointed out twice.

[MOtorboat]

Yes, not only did I acknowledge this fact, but I also explained how its different:





A fact that I've already pointed out twice.

You can't compare then and now, not even with concessions. There simply isn't a lesson to learn in 2017 from Elway's first year.

[topscribe]

Let’s say Elway does exactly what the majority of this site seems to want. He cuts all of the QBs currently on our roster at the end of the season, and then draft the #1 ranked QB coming out of college and/or available in FA. I’ve no doubt this site will continue to do what it’s been doing more & more since about the time Plummer got benched in favor of Cutler, which just so happens to be the SOP of the Cleveland Browns’ FO for about the last dozen years or so, embracing a policy of 1 strike & you’re out with all new QBs.

I want to make it clear that this isn’t an apologist thread for Lynch, Oz or Siemian. If it was, I’d just add this post to 1 of those threads. I’m just imagining what would be posted on this site if it existed in 1983. For those who have forgotten, or wasn’t old enough to have watched it, Elway’s NFL debut was the biggest debacle by any QB that I’ve ever witnessed. You think the stat lines of our QBs this year have been bad, look at what he did in the 11 games he played in, 10 that he started, during his rookie season:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00/gamelog/1983/

So Elway dropped back to pass 12 times in his debut, but only 1 ended positively, a completed pass for 14 yards. Of the other 11 plays, 5 ended badly, 1 INT & 4 sacks that lost 26 yards. It was even worse than the net yards passing of -12 yards suggests. Although I can’t find any stats source that shows who was actually responsible, but the team stat lines show that the Broncos also had 3 fumbles, 2 of which were lost. I can’t say I can remember with absolute certainty, but I’m sure that Elway was also responsible for at least 1 of those lost fumbles.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/198309040pit.htm

Denver won that game after Steve DeBerg, aided by 7 turnovers that our D racked up, replaced him at halftime. DeBerg also came off the bench in the following week's win. The next 2 games were complete games for Elway, both were losses. In week 5, we were in such a hole by the time Elway was benched that Deberg couldn’t lead us back, resulting in Elway being supplanted as the starter.

His next appearance was week 10 when DeBerg suffered a season ending shoulder injury. We lost that game, but in fairness to Elway, we’re already trailing when he took over. His next to starts resulted in complete game losses. In between those 2 games, Kubiak made his NFL debut with a complete game win at Seattle when Elway missed due to a stomach virus. It wasn’t until his 8th start he actually lead the Broncos to a win. Although his official stat line says Elway was 4-6 as a starter that year, I refuse to give him credit for the 1st 2 wins because it was DeBerg who actually lead us to victory.

His rookie season stat line includes 7 TDs, 14 INT & 28 sacks that led to an unknowable # of lost fumbles. How do these stats compare to those of our current QBs? Of course stats don’t tell you everything, but I did witnessed Elway’s rookie season with my own eyes, and he was horrible. Back in the days of Broncosfreak.com, someone found an archived article (I believe from Sports Illustrated) that was written following that season which denounced Elway as a bust right then and there. I’m so glad that Reeves & the FO ignored such opinions.

I’m not going to try to sell anyone on the idea that any of our current QBs are future HoFers, only that we should cut somebody a break. If not 1 of the guys currently on our roster, then who ever it is that we bring in to replace them. Offensive game plans, as well as defensive schemes, are far more complex than they were in ’83. If it took someone as great as Elway needed as long as it did to master the QB position back when the game was a lot simpler then it is today, don’t you all think it might take a little longer today for those who have a fraction of his raw athleticism & talent?
That's really kind of been my message. All three QBs are very young. Sure . . . Brady, Brees,
Roesthlisberger, and a couple others like them could have played behind this disaster of an
O-line and been more successful. But they're experienced and elite. We don't even know
what we have because they have been reduced to tackling dummies. (Please, don't anyone
pick up on this.) I want to know what they can do with a few games under their respecrive
belts under more normal circumstances. Hopefully, the O-line can continue to improve so
we can see the Siemian of the first three games this season . . .

[topscribe]

You can't compare then and now, not even with concessions. There simply isn't a lesson to learn in 2017 from Elway's first year.
Beg to differ: football is football, and rookies are rookies. Makes no difference the era. IMO.



The line is simply not as bad as you want it to be.
Not anymore, it isn't. But it was the proverbial dumpster fire earlier in the year.

[BeefStew25]

Mo did you have pubes in 1983?

[MOtorboat]

Mo did you have pubes in 1983?

Did you?

[Shazam!]

The line is simply not as bad as you want it to be.

Do I WANT Denvers Offensive Line to be terrible?

No.

Is it terrible?

Yup. No one can say it isn't a problem. Nobody.

[BeefStew25]

Did you?

Actually no. I didn’t. Good point.

[Cugel]

I want to make it clear that this isn’t an apologist thread for Lynch, Oz or Siemian. If it was, I’d just add this post to 1 of those threads. I’m just imagining what would be posted on this site if it existed in 1983. For those who have forgotten, or wasn’t old enough to have watched it, Elway’s NFL debut was the biggest debacle by any QB that I’ve ever witnessed. You think the stat lines of our QBs this year have been bad, look at what he did in the 11 games he played in, 10 that he started, during his rookie season:

It doesn't matter how you qualify it. You tried to make a point using John Elway. Except that Elway was the most coveted QB in the draft in many years, a sure-fire, can't-miss prospect if there ever was one. And that's what he turned out to be. Every Broncos fan was ecstatic over getting Elway. The press was so intense in staking out his house for any "Elway sightings" that he finally got mad and told them to cut it out, after they investigated what kind of Halloween candy he gave out.

Yes he struggled in games his first season. Do I need point out Paxton isn't a rookie? He's had 2 years and he hasn't progressed at all. That's all he's getting too. He's in a QB battle for the #3 or #4 QB on this roster.

If Trevor is willing to stay then I'd say they almost have to get rid of Paxton. #1 QB draft pick, #2 veteran FA (or vice versa), #3 Kelly, #4 Paxton. But what team carries 4 QBs? So, if Trevor stays as the veteran until the rookie is ready, or if they go out and get a veteran like Kirk Cousins, and Trevor stays as the backup, that's the end for Paxton.

And do you really think Paxton would win a QB competition with Kelly? I'm going to bet no on that one. :coffee:

[Cugel]

Do I WANT Denvers Offensive Line to be terrible?

No.

Is it terrible?

Yup. No one can say it isn't a problem. Nobody.

NOBODY. But, it should be better next year. Bolles won't be a rookie any more. And neither Donald Stephenson nor Menelik Watson will be back, and that's got to help, right? Those guys made Russell Okung look like Joe Thomas.

Also, since starting Max Garcia won't be a consideration next year, there is no reason to start Pro-Bowl LG Ron Leary at RG. Garcia wouldn't/couldn't play RG for some reason, so Leary tried to help the team out by switching sides. But, since Garcia sucks, it was a bad deal all around.

They need a new RG not on the roster. If they can find 2 OL in FA or the draft, then their OL should be at least adequate. IF John Elway learned his lesson from last FA!

He tried to get a RT on the cheap. Reilly Reiff got $12M a year and Watson got $6. Bargain! Right? Smart shopping that wasn't.

[FanInAZ]

It doesn't matter how you qualify it. You tried to make a point using John Elway. Except that Elway was the most coveted QB in the draft in many years, a sure-fire, can't-miss prospect if there ever was one. And that's what he turned out to be. Every Broncos fan was ecstatic over getting Elway. The press was so intense in staking out his house for any "Elway sightings" that he finally got mad and told them to cut it out, after they investigated what kind of Halloween candy he gave out.

Yes he struggled in games his first season. Do I need point out Paxton isn't a rookie? He's had 2 years and he hasn't progressed at all. That's all he's getting too. He's in a QB battle for the #3 or #4 QB on this roster.

If Trevor is willing to stay then I'd say they almost have to get rid of Paxton. #1 QB draft pick, #2 veteran FA (or vice versa), #3 Kelly, #4 Paxton. But what team carries 4 QBs? So, if Trevor stays as the veteran until the rookie is ready, or if they go out and get a veteran like Kirk Cousins, and Trevor stays as the backup, that's the end for Paxton.

And do you really think Paxton would win a QB competition with Kelly? I'm going to bet no on that one. :coffee:

1) Actually, Elway 1 of 6 coveted QBs that year, 3 of whom lived up to their HoF potential.

2) As I've stated repeatedly, this "1 strike & you're out" didn't start in the post Manning era, it's also what was happening since at least as early as Cutler over at Broncosfreak. Fans were declaring him a bust after just 1 start. He may not have lived up to the HoF dreams that we have for all of our 1st rounders, but there's a reason he's in his 12 season in which he's been mostly a starter. He's definitely has had a much better career then any post Elway Broncos QB, not named Manning, in spite of playing 3/4 of his career for 1 of the most incompetent organizations in the NFL.

[Shazam!]

Do I WANT Denvers Offensive Line to be terrible?

No.

Is it terrible?

Yup. No one can say it isn't a problem. Nobody.

NOBODY. But, it should be better next year. Bolles won't be a rookie any more. And neither Donald Stephenson nor Menelik Watson will be back, and that's got to help, right? Those guys made Russell Okung look like Joe Thomas.

Also, since starting Max Garcia won't be a consideration next year, there is no reason to start Pro-Bowl LG Ron Leary at RG. Garcia wouldn't/couldn't play RG for some reason, so Leary tried to help the team out by switching sides. But, since Garcia sucks, it was a bad deal all around.

They need a new RG not on the roster. If they can find 2 OL in FA or the draft, then their OL should be at least adequate. IF John Elway learned his lesson from last FA!

He tried to get a RT on the cheap. Reilly Reiff got $12M a year and Watson got $6. Bargain! Right? Smart shopping that wasn't.

Exactly. I don't care what 'stats' say, because i know what my eyes tell me (and Denvers opponents!). Can the Broncos pass protect? No. Can the Broncos run block with any consistency? No. They can't do ANYTHING even remotely well with any dependability.

Leary had been the lone bright spot. Hope Bolles blossoms and Paradis continues to improve.