PDA

View Full Version : Broncos fire OC Mike McCoy



Pages : [1] 2

VonDoom
11-20-2017, 10:19 AM
Deserves its own thread:

Ian Rapoport‏Verified account @RapSheet
5m5 minutes ago

Source: The #Broncos have fired offensive coordinator Mike McCoy.

Ian Rapoport‏Verified account @RapSheet
3m3 minutes ago

Amid offensive frustration, on the heels of another difficult loss, the #Broncos and coach Vance Joseph made a big move: Mike McCoy is out.

Adam Schefter‏Verified account @AdamSchefter
33s33 seconds ago

Broncos have promoted their QB coach Bill Musgrave t offensive coordinator, per source. Former OC Mike McCoy has been let go, as @RapSheet reported.

chazoe60
11-20-2017, 10:21 AM
:laugh::laugh:

chazoe60
11-20-2017, 10:23 AM
I love how Ian Rapoport says Vance Joseph made a big move, as if that moron had anything to do with the decision. :laugh:

Slick
11-20-2017, 10:23 AM
Who fired him? Elway or Vance?

chazoe60
11-20-2017, 10:24 AM
Who fired him? Elway or Vance?

Elway. Joseph was too busy talking about how good practice was.

GEM
11-20-2017, 10:26 AM
Sources last week indicated that frustration with McCoy’s offensive scheme had been mounting. After another disappointing loss and a complete lack of offensive creativity, John Elway and Vance Joseph made the move to fire McCoy.

With Paxton Lynch likely coming into the fold, the playbook will definitely be moved towards a simpler “dumbed down” one.

https://www.milehighreport.com/2017/11/20/16679280/broncos-have-fired-offensive-coordinator-mike-mccoy

VonDoom
11-20-2017, 10:30 AM
https://www.milehighreport.com/2017/11/20/16679280/broncos-have-fired-offensive-coordinator-mike-mccoy

We can dumb down our offense for our mental midget QB Lynch!

I think all of these coaches have sucked, so I can't complain about McCoy going. The biggest thing to me is that we seemed competent in two TE sets but every time we went three WR, we did nothing and often left our QB to get pummeled. If I can see that, McCoy should have too.

Rick
11-20-2017, 10:32 AM
Good decision.

I am sure this actually was VJ as Elway said in the past that the cords are up to the HC.

If he didn't make that decision, maybe HE would be fired.

Bronco4ever
11-20-2017, 10:33 AM
McCoy seems like a nice guy and all, but his offense has been brutal to watch. Let’s see if Musgrave can bring something new to the table with Lynch.

VonDoom
11-20-2017, 10:36 AM
Cecil Lammey‏Verified account @CecilLammey
3m3 minutes ago

Cecil Lammey Retweeted Adam Schefter

If Paxton Lynch starts, I'm expecting Musgrave to implement plenty of read/option plays. Utilize his running ability and split the field in half for Lynch as a passer. #Broncos @1043TheFan

Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck
1m1 minute ago

#Broncos Vance Joseph fired McCoy. Joseph had grown frustrated with a complicated playbook that wasn't yielding results and mulled this move for multiple weeks. Team has no identity offensively. Musgrave takes over. #Denver7

Nick Kosmider‏Verified account @NickKosmider
5m5 minutes ago

Some numbers behind the dismissal of Mike McCoy: The Broncos offense ranks 24th in scoring, 29th in red-zone percentage, 30th in QB rating and 31st in turnovers.

weazel
11-20-2017, 10:37 AM
hire anyone?

Freyaka
11-20-2017, 10:37 AM
We can dumb down our offense for our mental midget QB Lynch!

I think all of these coaches have sucked, so I can't complain about McCoy going. The biggest thing to me is that we seemed competent in two TE sets but every time we went three WR, we did nothing and often left our QB to get pummeled. If I can see that, McCoy should have too.

We're going full Tebow....

UnderArmour
11-20-2017, 10:38 AM
Vance needs to go too. Team is suffering from penalties, lack of discipline, lack of effort, and lack of toughness in all 3 phases of the game, not just offensively. Vance Joseph has shown that he is completely not cut out for the job. I don't expect 6 more games to change that.

VonDoom
11-20-2017, 10:38 AM
Mike Klis‏Verified account @MikeKlis
15s16 seconds ago

Klint Kubiak expected to be promoted to QB coach. So it's Bill Musgrave from QB coach to offensive coordinator; Kubiak from offensive asst to QB coach. #9sports

HORSEPOWER 56
11-20-2017, 10:38 AM
People keep bringing up Lynch as if he has anything to do with anything. Has anyone outside of media speculation said anything about Lynch starting? This staff is so inept that I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t play at all. VJ is too stupid and Elway is too prideful to call this season a failure and try to move on.

G_Money
11-20-2017, 10:43 AM
We can dumb down our offense for our mental midget QB Lynch!

I think all of these coaches have sucked, so I can't complain about McCoy going. The biggest thing to me is that we seemed competent in two TE sets but every time we went three WR, we did nothing and often left our QB to get pummeled. If I can see that, McCoy should have too.

Siemian is a very smart man, but it's not like his grasp of our "complicated" offense helped him succeed. I don't care much how simple or complicated an offense is if it works - this offense was basically terrible. If they're even talking about taking a QB who was just on IR because of injuries and running a read-option with him, though, then the Broncos really are staffed with idiots. Maybe they meant RPO.

I would settle for a "two-progression, then run and slide" offense at this point.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 10:45 AM
The first domino falls...

slim
11-20-2017, 10:47 AM
Should've fired VJ too.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 10:47 AM
Should've fired VJ too.

Patience.

chazoe60
11-20-2017, 10:54 AM
Vance needs to go too. Team is suffering from penalties, lack of discipline, lack of effort, and lack of toughness in all 3 phases of the game, not just offensively. Vance Joseph has shown that he is completely not cut out for the job. I don't expect 6 more games to change that.

I agree but it realistically is just not going to happen.

NightTerror218
11-20-2017, 10:55 AM
I thing Musgrave is better. Look how bad raiders offense,dropped off after we snagged him.

Maybe we can starting chipping edge rushers now

Rick
11-20-2017, 10:55 AM
VJ firing McCoy has bought him a year.

If he did nothing but accept the fate without trying something else, he very well could have been fired after the season.

Freyaka
11-20-2017, 10:58 AM
Should've fired VJ too.

Maybe, but you have to fire a sacrificial lamb first. McCoy runs the offense, the offense is the problem. If the team improves and we win out, VJ gets another year. If we still play the same after firing McCoy, VJ's next.

VonDoom
11-20-2017, 10:59 AM
People keep bringing up Lynch as if he has anything to do with anything. Has anyone outside of media speculation said anything about Lynch starting? This staff is so inept that I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t play at all. VJ is too stupid and Elway is too prideful to call this season a failure and try to move on.

I believe there was some talk a few weeks ago about playing as if we could still make the playoffs, but once we were out, we would do things differently. I remember the number "seven losses" being thrown around, so that's where we are now. As I said yesterday, there's no reason to not play Lynch at this point. If we can't evaluate him, then this season was an absolute waste in more ways than one.

chazoe60
11-20-2017, 10:59 AM
VJ woouldnt bench a punt returner with 5 fumbles, I don't believe for one second that he was behind this move. That dope is shellshocked and Elway is making the decisions. I bet Elway tells VJ what coffee to drink.

VonDoom
11-20-2017, 11:01 AM
Maybe, but you have to fire a sacrificial lamb first. McCoy runs the offense, the offense is the problem. If the team improves and we win out, VJ gets another year. If we still play the same after firing McCoy, VJ's next.

Everything is the problem. McCoy definitely should have gone, but then why does Olivo still have a job after our special teams nightmares all year?

EastCoastBronco
11-20-2017, 11:03 AM
I don't think it can get much more "Dumbed Down" than it has been.

Rick
11-20-2017, 11:13 AM
I seriously doubt it will be a read option similar to Tebow.

I made a post about that in another thread as a joke, but I really doubt that happens.

I imagine it would still be spread based, with some bootlegs, and just cutting down the reads and picking 1 side of the field or the other.

OrangeHoof
11-20-2017, 11:23 AM
This is like firing the batting coach because the GM is not ready yet to fire the manager. Window dressing. But Leader of Men is now on notice that he has to change to Leader of Winners soon or he'll lead the unemployment line.

dogfish
11-20-2017, 11:44 AM
total scapegoat move. . . VJ, olivo and joe woods suck just as hard, but they still have their jobs. . . olivo should have already texted mccoy an apology. . . "thanks for falling on the sword for the rest of us, dude!"

scheme ain't our main problem-- not having an NFL QB, or functional right tackle or tight end, is the real issue with the offense. . . if they want to actually fix it, they need to fire the guys responsible for that, not the guy who failed to make chicken salad out of bullshit. . .

Buff
11-20-2017, 11:45 AM
We can dumb down our offense for our mental midget QB Lynch!

I think all of these coaches have sucked, so I can't complain about McCoy going. The biggest thing to me is that we seemed competent in two TE sets but every time we went three WR, we did nothing and often left our QB to get pummeled. If I can see that, McCoy should have too.

No doubt we could have used more creativity, but this could just as easily read as a critique on Elway and the front office...

How can we run multiple TE sets with a bunch of subpar TEs? I understand we should have matched the talent to the scheme more effectively - but we have no talent at OL or TE and that's going to make it difficult on any OC.

Also, it just seems silly to me that they're suggesting that his scheme is too complex for Paxton Lynch to succeed in it... McCoy won like 8 games in a row with Tebow! Not saying I'm against the move, because all of the coaches deserve to be fired arguably - but it feels like a classic scapegoating.

dogfish
11-20-2017, 11:59 AM
but it feels like a classic scapegoating.

that's because it is a classic scapegoating. . . i expected to see this news this morning, they set it up with the leaks yesterday. . . and we're supposed to buy that it was all mccoy's fault, and forget about who hired him. . .

Northman
11-20-2017, 12:02 PM
One down, one to go.

Buff
11-20-2017, 12:07 PM
that's because it is a classic scapegoating. . . i expected to see this news this morning, they set it up with the leaks yesterday. . . and we're supposed to buy that it was all mccoy's fault, and forget about who hired him. . .

Yeah when I saw the Rappaport report "Sources say Broncos are frustrated by offensive scheme" I shook my damn head. No reason for anyone in power to leak that out unless they're CYA'ing.

Meanwhile Brandon Marshall with the epic twitter meltdown last night. Too much dysfunction for my tastes.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-20-2017, 12:13 PM
DENVER - Denver Broncos head coach Vance Joseph has fired offensive coordinator Mike McCoy.

McCoy was informed by Joseph on Monday he has been relieved of his duties. Joseph then promoted quarterbacks coach Bill Musgrave to offensive coordinator. Musgrave will call the offensive plays Sunday against the Oakland Raiders – one of several NFL teams he has previously served as offensive coordinator.

“I have a responsibility to do what’s best for our football team,'' Joseph said in a statement. "Although this wasn’t an easy decision, we needed to make this change. We have to play a more efficient brand of football offensively as we begin the final stretch of our season.''

Klint Kubiak, son of former Broncos head coach Gary Kubiak, has been promoted from offensive assistant/assistant quarterbacks coach to quarterbacks coach.

AND - interesting


Multiple players said while McCoy is a good coach and a great guy, he did have so many plays on his sheet, the offense didn’t practice all of them before he called them during the game.

full article - http://www.9news.com/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/broncos-fire-offensive-coordinator-mike-mccoy/493327060

Tned
11-20-2017, 12:23 PM
Who fired him? Elway or Vance?

Let me explain how a puppet works. The puppeteer bends the puppet over, takes his hand and shoves it into a cavity in the puppet, then props the puppet back up and magically it starts to say and do things...

Tned
11-20-2017, 12:28 PM
Siemian is a very smart man, but it's not like his grasp of our "complicated" offense helped him succeed. I don't care much how simple or complicated an offense is if it works - this offense was basically terrible. If they're even talking about taking a QB who was just on IR because of injuries and running a read-option with him, though, then the Broncos really are staffed with idiots. Maybe they meant RPO.

I would settle for a "two-progression, then run and slide" offense at this point.

I'm not sure it would be going from what we currently have to read option, but doing something different. I think these three tweets from Nick Jhabvala yesterday some up the "definition of insanity" that has been the Broncos offensive scheme.

https://twitter.com/NickiJhabvala/status/932362927872663553


https://twitter.com/NickiJhabvala/status/932373815950303233


https://twitter.com/NickiJhabvala/status/932377521517203458
https://twitter.com/NickiJhabvala/status/932377521517203458

underrated29
11-20-2017, 12:41 PM
:hi:

Rick
11-20-2017, 12:48 PM
If they were calling plays that hadn't even been practiced that is also kind of telling.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 01:00 PM
If they were calling plays that hadn't even been practiced that is also kind of telling.

It's flat out lunacy. It's so outside the realm of functional coaching that it's almost hard to believe.


Meanwhile Brandon Marshall with the epic twitter meltdown last night. Too much dysfunction for my tastes.

What happened? I don't navigate twitter often, but didn't see any news or anything obvious.

Tned
11-20-2017, 01:01 PM
If they were calling plays that hadn't even been practiced that is also kind of telling.

I might have missed that. Was that stated someplace?

wayninja
11-20-2017, 01:02 PM
I might have missed that. Was that stated someplace?

Second quote in Carol's post above.

G_Money
11-20-2017, 01:03 PM
I seriously doubt it will be a read option similar to Tebow.

I made a post about that in another thread as a joke, but I really doubt that happens.

I imagine it would still be spread based, with some bootlegs, and just cutting down the reads and picking 1 side of the field or the other.

This is my assumption as well. Also, this terrifies me:


Mike Klis‏Verified account
@MikeKlis

Multiple sources said one concern regarding McCoy was his play-sheet had so much volume, plays were called during game that weren't practiced during week. Execution was a problem. 17 turnovers during 6-game skid. #9sports

Tned
11-20-2017, 01:08 PM
Second quote in Carol's post above.

Thanks. I re-read that post three times, but only the top part, my brain was completely skipping over that second quote block.

Wow, that's bad if that's what he was doing. It's ok to have a massive play list, because then it can be a smorgasbord to choose from as you game plan the opponent, but then you need to practice your game plan and plays you might call leading into the week.

Maybe that explains some of what we've seen both with Trevor and Brock, where they had interceptions and incompletions when the WR ran the wrong route and other cases where the QB and receivers weren't on the same page.

BeefStew25
11-20-2017, 01:34 PM
It kinda sucks when Elway decides to leak this shit tho.

MOtorboat
11-20-2017, 01:43 PM
There were obvious problems, but honestly, I'm not sure this fixes much.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 01:45 PM
There were obvious problems, but honestly, I'm not sure this fixes much.

It doesn't, it's just the beginning of the scapegoating that will likely ultimately lead to a cleansing.

Davii
11-20-2017, 01:56 PM
I actually disagree, for the most part. While there may be some scapegoating I think it's clear McCoy needed to go. VJ was a defensive coach before coming here, as a DC and as a position coach. I believe McCoy was given, more or less, total control of the offensive side of the ball other than Vance saying "hey we need to run more" or whatever during the game. The offense has CLEARLY been the biggest hurdle the Broncos have had to overcome. Special teams is next on the list, and the Defense is the best unit on the team (although looking pretty bad lately). If the rumors we are hearing about the playsheet not being practiced are true there is no doubt McCoy needed to go. About time we see some real consequences to the staff. I don't understand why Olivo still has a job, he needs to be kicked to the curb as well.

BroncoJoe
11-20-2017, 02:10 PM
Special teams actually played well yesterday.

As to McCoy? See ya. If what's being reported is true, then that's just simply stupid. Calling plays you never practiced? Beyond dumb. I also heard on the radio earlier that they had 15 scripted plays to open up the game, but then during the first part of the game he'd change them. Idiotic, IMO.

Mike
11-20-2017, 02:25 PM
total scapegoat move. . . VJ, olivo and joe woods suck just as hard, but they still have their jobs. . . olivo should have already texted mccoy an apology. . . "thanks for falling on the sword for the rest of us, dude!"

scheme ain't our main problem-- not having an NFL QB, or functional right tackle or tight end, is the real issue with the offense. . . if they want to actually fix it, they need to fire the guys responsible for that, not the guy who failed to make chicken salad out of bullshit. . .

Kind of. I see it as Elway may be accepting responsibility for a mistake. But offensive production/turnovers is the major problem with the team. Not adapting to the players talent-level (or lack thereof) is a major mark against him. We stubbornly refused to add help to the RT, we stubbornly insisted on running 3 WR sets in which 1) had no benefit/reward on majority of plays, 2) cost the team as the majority of INTs have come out of that set, and 3) resulted in tons of blown up plays because defenders were either on the RB or QB before the play developed.

I still say McCoy should not get credit for Tebow either (as much credit as you can give Tebow anyways). We stubbornly refused to let Tebow be Tebow for the 1st 3 quarters of those games when he played and tried to force him in to something he wasn't. It wasn't until the 4th quarter that we started calling plays that benefitted his play style.

Northman
11-20-2017, 02:28 PM
Currently at work but I just saw an article posted on Facebook that the Broncos might be parting ways with DT

underrated29
11-20-2017, 02:30 PM
Kind of. I see it as Elway may be accepting responsibility for a mistake. But offensive production/turnovers is the major problem with the team. Not adapting to the players talent-level (or lack thereof) is a major mark against him. We stubbornly refused to add help to the RT, we stubbornly insisted on running 3 WR sets in which 1) had no benefit/reward on majority of plays, 2) cost the team as the majority of INTs have come out of that set, and 3) resulted in tons of blown up plays because defenders were either on the RB or QB before the play developed.

I still say McCoy should not get credit for Tebow either (as much credit as you can give Tebow anyways). We stubbornly refused to let Tebow be Tebow for the 1st 3 quarters of those games when he played and tried to force him in to something he wasn't. It wasn't until the 4th quarter that we started calling plays that benefitted his play style.


A man after my own heart

Rick
11-20-2017, 02:30 PM
I can't see anyway they could do that, not at the cost of cutting him.

And who else do they have? Sanders is literally the only other good receiver.

VonDoom
11-20-2017, 02:31 PM
Currently at work but I just saw an article posted on Facebook that the Broncos might be parting ways with DT

https://twitter.com/AllbrightNFL/status/932675212923064320

Tned
11-20-2017, 02:33 PM
I actually disagree, for the most part. While there may be some scapegoating I think it's clear McCoy needed to go. VJ was a defensive coach before coming here, as an OC and as a position coach. I believe McCoy was given, more or less, total control of the offensive side of the ball other than Vance saying "hey we need to run more" or whatever during the game. The offense has CLEARLY been the biggest hurdle the Broncos have had to overcome. Special teams is next on the list, and the Defense is the best unit on the team (although looking pretty bad lately). If the rumors we are hearing about the playsheet not being practiced are true there is no doubt McCoy needed to go. About time we see some real consequences to the staff. I don't understand why Olivo still has a job, he needs to be kicked to the curb as well.

Yea, I'm not sure why the claims of scapgoating are being thrown around.

McCoy was brought in to run the offense. The offense has sucked. So, when that happens, one of two actions usually takes place. 1. Fire the OC. 2. Relieve OC of play calling duties. Granted, they could have gone with number two, but since Musgrave will probably have his own scheme, it makes more sense to have a clean break.

McCoy, like Kubiak before him, did not do a good job of creating a gameplan to work within the limitations of talent he has to work with. Lots of teams have bad lines or young QBs or whatever. A good OC will create a scheme to maximize player talent, and work around/cover up player flaws. McCoy did not.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 02:33 PM
I actually disagree, for the most part. While there may be some scapegoating I think it's clear McCoy needed to go. VJ was a defensive coach before coming here, as an OC and as a position coach. I believe McCoy was given, more or less, total control of the offensive side of the ball other than Vance saying "hey we need to run more" or whatever during the game. The offense has CLEARLY been the biggest hurdle the Broncos have had to overcome. Special teams is next on the list, and the Defense is the best unit on the team (although looking pretty bad lately). If the rumors we are hearing about the playsheet not being practiced are true there is no doubt McCoy needed to go. About time we see some real consequences to the staff. I don't understand why Olivo still has a job, he needs to be kicked to the curb as well.

And that's precisely why any attempt to paint this as accountability rings a bit hollow. I agree McCoy needed to go. But he's not the only one.

It didn't help matters that the firing was telegraphed...

Tned
11-20-2017, 02:39 PM
Kind of. I see it as Elway may be accepting responsibility for a mistake. But offensive production/turnovers is the major problem with the team. Not adapting to the players talent-level (or lack thereof) is a major mark against him. We stubbornly refused to add help to the RT, we stubbornly insisted on running 3 WR sets in which 1) had no benefit/reward on majority of plays, 2) cost the team as the majority of INTs have come out of that set, and 3) resulted in tons of blown up plays because defenders were either on the RB or QB before the play developed.

I still say McCoy should not get credit for Tebow either (as much credit as you can give Tebow anyways). We stubbornly refused to let Tebow be Tebow for the 1st 3 quarters of those games when he played and tried to force him in to something he wasn't. It wasn't until the 4th quarter that we started calling plays that benefitted his play style.

Exactly, considering our protection problems, they would be better off running two TEs or two RBs or BOTH and then be creating about putting some of those blockers in motion, and other times leaving them in to block. You can't just keeping letting the QB be pressured repeatedly and not do anything to compensate.

Rick
11-20-2017, 02:40 PM
Interesting on DT.

Not sure what the plan would be if they move him. That would be WR in the draft as a high priority on a team with a ton of high priority needs.

Northman
11-20-2017, 02:40 PM
I can't see anyway they could do that, not at the cost of cutting him.

And who else do they have? Sanders is literally the only other good receiver.


Highly doubtful they out right cut him but I certainly can see them trading him he has way too many drops for a guy getting the kind of money he is

Northman
11-20-2017, 02:40 PM
Interesting on DT.

Not sure what the plan would be if they move him. That would be WR in the draft as a high priority on a team with a ton of high priority needs.

Depends on what they get in return

Denver Native (Carol)
11-20-2017, 02:42 PM
Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck
12s12 seconds ago

#Broncos VJ said has not made decision on QB. "I will get together with (Musgrave) and his staff and see who is the best fit." #Denver7

Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck
2m2 minutes ago

#Broncos Joseph said w Musgrave "I think the passing game will look different. ... Will be called differently." #Denver

Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck
3m3 minutes ago

#Broncos Joseph said on 760 AM was his decision to fire McCoy. Said passing game has to get better. "We made the change with Trevor to go with Brock to play efficient football and not turn the ball over. I felt after watching the tape this morning it was time to make a change."

LawDog
11-20-2017, 02:52 PM
Currently at work but I just saw an article posted on Facebook that the Broncos might be parting ways with DT

Wouldn't bother me in the least...

BroncoJoe
11-20-2017, 02:55 PM
Highly doubtful they out right cut him but I certainly can see them trading him he has way too many drops for a guy getting the kind of money he is

He's not the same guy that earned the contract they gave him. I love DT, but he's playing like he's protecting himself. Hardly any YAC, and just seems "different".

I know he's once again on pace for close to 1,000 yards this season, but he just doesn't seem like the same player.

Freyaka
11-20-2017, 03:01 PM
https://247sports.com/nfl/denver-broncos/Bolt/Report-Broncos-looking-to-move-on-from-Demaryius-Thomas-110801952

Apparently we tried shopping him prior to the deadline and no one was interested.

Cugel
11-20-2017, 03:11 PM
Good decision.

I am sure this actually was VJ as Elway said in the past that the cords are up to the HC.

If he didn't make that decision, maybe HE would be fired.

You lose six games in a row and look horrible doing it. The boss wants to fire one of your staff. If you don't do it, maybe next time the boss concludes that he can't work with you because you are not cooperating in fixing things. So, YOU suddenly become problem #1.

A head coach can fend off demands that he fire his assistants, IF his team is winning. If they are losing, he can't. "We tried it your way and it didn't work. Now we're going to make some changes." -- Elway to Joseph.

What can Joseph say: "Seventh time the charm?"

BroncoJoe
11-20-2017, 03:15 PM
A head coach can fend off demands that he fire his assistants, IF his team is winning. If they are losing, he can't.

You really post some stupid stuff sometimes. This might be your best yet.

Cugel
11-20-2017, 03:16 PM
He's not the same guy that earned the contract they gave him. I love DT, but he's playing like he's protecting himself. Hardly any YAC, and just seems "different".

I know he's once again on pace for close to 1,000 yards this season, but he just doesn't seem like the same player.

He's injured. I thought that the cap hit was too high to trade or release DT next season. But, if they are going to a rookie QB from the draft next year, and rebuilding from the ground up with younger players, it makes no sense to pay DT $12m.


Denver would clear $4.96 million while absorbing $7.06 million in dead money by moving Thomas, who has two years remaining on the five-year, $70 million contract he signed in 2015.

$7M is a lot of dead cap space to absorb for a player, but $7 is still less than $12M. I don't know about his vegan diet. That sounds a lot like excuse making. Reality is that he hasn't been healthy in the last 2 years. He's playing hurt and is not the same player he was.

Well, instead of Peyton throwing to him he's got Trevor, Brock & soon Paxton. None of those guys is even average. So, it's no surprise his numbers are down.

Cugel
11-20-2017, 03:20 PM
You really post some stupid stuff sometimes. This might be your best yet.

Winning coaches can usually make their own rules and run their staff however they want, despite any conflicts with management. Losing ones cannot. It's you who are really stupid.

This actually just happened on the Broncos with Kubiak. Apparently, you are too ignorant to remember it.

The team was 9-7. By definition that's a winning team. Elway STILL wanted to fire a bunch of offensive coaches. Kubiak didn't and he retired instead of agreeing with Elway.

Elway proceeded to fire the coaches. Elway would have wanted to fire Rico whatever the team record was. He would have wanted to fire OL Clancey Barone too with whom he appears to have had a bad working relationship. He would not have pressed the matter if Kubiak had made the playoffs, which they nearly did.

Rick
11-20-2017, 03:22 PM
The price tag of 12m is irrelevant IF he is producing.

IF he was producing, if they did go to a rookie next year or they did go with PL, having a producing DT is a security blanket.

Nothing like hey kid, go out there and learn on the job, and while you are at it go throw to a bunch of nobody's.

Rick
11-20-2017, 03:24 PM
Winning coaches can usually make their own rules and run their staff however they want, despite any conflicts with management. Losing ones cannot. It's you who are really stupid.

This actually just happened on the Broncos with Kubiak. Apparently, you are too ignorant to remember it.

The team was 9-7. By definition that's a winning team. Elway STILL wanted to fire a bunch of offensive coaches. Kubiak didn't and he retired instead of agreeing with Elway.

Elway proceeded to fire the coaches. Elway would have wanted to fire Rico whatever the team record was. He would have wanted to fire OL Clancey Barone too with whom he appears to have had a bad working relationship. He would not have pressed the matter if Kubiak had made the playoffs, which they nearly did.

I still don't agree with this. It may very well have happened, but outside of people on THIS board saying it I have never seen a single reputable source to collaborate it. It may have happened...who knows...

VonDoom
11-20-2017, 03:24 PM
https://twitter.com/TroyRenck/status/932703605345411072

The Glue Factory
11-20-2017, 03:25 PM
that's because it is a classic scapegoating. . . i expected to see this news this morning, they set it up with the leaks yesterday. . . and we're supposed to buy that it was all mccoy's fault, and forget about who hired him. . .

What if McCoy's firing is a message to the rest of the coaches (and by extension, players)? Could it be that Elway had a private conversation with VJ that McCoy needs to be fired and if Elway had to do the firing McCoy may not be the only coach packing their office?

BroncoJoe
11-20-2017, 03:25 PM
Winning coaches can usually make their own rules and run their staff however they want, despite any conflicts with management. Losing ones cannot. It's you who are really stupid.

This actually just happened on the Broncos with Kubiak. Apparently, you are too ignorant to remember it.

The team was 9-7. By definition that's a winning team. Elway STILL wanted to fire a bunch of offensive coaches. Kubiak didn't and he retired instead of agreeing with Elway.

Elway proceeded to fire the coaches. Elway would have wanted to fire Rico whatever the team record was. He would have wanted to fire OL Clancey Barone too with whom he appears to have had a bad working relationship. He would not have pressed the matter if Kubiak had made the playoffs, which they nearly did.

Your statement was so clearly obvious it was stupid. Tell me why a winning team would even consider firing coaches mid-season?

Your reference to Kubiak is irrelevant because it's been widely reported and acknowledged that he quit because of health reasons. Reasonable, because those reasons are clearly defined and documented.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 03:26 PM
Apparently, you are too ignorant to remember it.

I've been trying for at least 5 minutes to wrap my brain around this sentence. If feels like a never ending loop.

BroncoJoe
11-20-2017, 03:29 PM
I've been trying for at least 5 minutes to wrap my brain around this sentence. If feels like a never ending loop.

Let's go have a beer or two and try to figure it out.

Slick
11-20-2017, 03:38 PM
DT is the least of this team's problems. Please. The way I see it, there aren't a ton of holes personnel wise. The holes are just at very important positions. QB, RT and TE.

..and the coaching.

Rex
11-20-2017, 03:41 PM
DT is the least of this team's problems. Please. The way I see it, there aren't a ton of holes personnel wise. The holes are just at very important positions. QB, RT and TE.

..and the coaching.

Oh dont let that RG position fool ya. That Max Garcia lets more dudes in the BroncoJoe at a weekend music festival

VonDoom
11-20-2017, 03:42 PM
Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala
4m4 minutes ago

Vance Joseph: "When we changed from Trevor to Brock, my goal was to stabilize the offense and not turn the ball over so much. ... That hadn't happened. Brock has had three starts now and the same problems have occurred."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala
4m4 minutes ago

Vance Joseph: "Our running game has been good. But our passing game has not been in good, in my opinion."

Mike Klis‏Verified account @MikeKlis
3m3 minutes ago

Vance Joseph said switch from Siemian to Osweiler was about ending turnovers from QB position. That hasn't happened. Said McCoy move made for more pass efficiency. #9sports

Andrew Mason‏Verified account @MaseDenver
5m5 minutes ago

Vance Joseph: “I would say not,” when asked whether philosophical differences between McCoy and Musgrave led to the decision today.

Cecil Lammey‏Verified account @CecilLammey
4m4 minutes ago

#Broncos Vance Joseph @1043TheFan "moving to Billy (Musgrave) I think we're going to have a chance at a more efficient passing game."

Andrew Mason‏Verified account @MaseDenver
4m4 minutes ago

Vance Joseph wants to see the passing game “grow” and “not be so scattered in our concepts.” Looking for things to be “simplified."

Andrew Mason‏Verified account @MaseDenver
4m4 minutes ago

Vance Joseph: The scheme “has to” change “because it’s a different coordinator.” … “We have to figure out a way to keep the terminology the same but simplify the concepts."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala
3m3 minutes ago

Joseph said "it's possible" they could go back to Siemian. All three in the running.

Andrew Mason‏Verified account @MaseDenver
3m3 minutes ago

Vance Joseph: “I chose Mike. Mike was my first call … we could have coached better and played better. Mike didn’t fumble the ball. Mike didn’t throw interceptions. But ultimately it falls on Mike’s plate."

Andrew Mason‏Verified account @MaseDenver
1m1 minute ago

Vance Joseph, on what the offense will be if Paxton Lynch: “If he does play for us, it’s got to be a system that fits Paxton."

Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala
58s59 seconds ago

Vance Joseph: "It was my decision. It my decision only."

Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck
55s56 seconds ago

#Broncos Joseph "Being fair to Brock and Mike, I hoped it would turn. Even In Philly, I thought we did better. Even this week, we outgained them. Moving ball hasn't been issue. Finishing and turning it over have been the issues." #Denver7

Andrew Mason‏Verified account @MaseDenver
55s56 seconds ago

Vance Joseph, on the players’ reaction: “It was a quiet group, because they like Mike. But they understand that it’s a production business."

Slick
11-20-2017, 03:43 PM
Oh dont let that RG position fool ya. That Max Garcia lets more dudes in the BroncoJoe at a weekend music festival

Leary is Denver's best lineman. The LG does suck, no doubt.

Rex
11-20-2017, 03:45 PM
Leary is Denver's best lineman. The LG does suck, no doubt.

Typo. Meant LG. Garcia. Leary is the only good OL.

BeefStew25
11-20-2017, 03:45 PM
Paradise isn’t good? I don’t watch the line much.

Rick
11-20-2017, 03:47 PM
I think we will need to hear from Musgrave to see what the offense will be like, from the press conference it was obvious that VJ hasn't a clue.

Slick
11-20-2017, 03:48 PM
Typo. Meant LG. Garcia. Leary is the only good OL.

I'd like to see Leary at LG playing next to Bolles. Keep all the suck on one side of the line.

BeefStew25
11-20-2017, 03:49 PM
The time for talking is over. It’s time to act.

Mike
11-20-2017, 03:51 PM
Paradise isn’t good? I don’t watch the line much.

He is about average. Compared to RT and LG, he is solid, but we can do better.

Magnificent Seven
11-20-2017, 03:57 PM
LT Bolles & RG Leary are safe for season 2018.

BeefStew25
11-20-2017, 03:58 PM
LT Bolles & RG Leary are safe for season 2018.

Whose your favorite serial killer?

Rick
11-20-2017, 04:03 PM
Whose your favorite serial killer?

You are.

Freyaka
11-20-2017, 04:09 PM
DT is the least of this team's problems. Please. The way I see it, there aren't a ton of holes personnel wise. The holes are just at very important positions. QB, RT and TE.

..and the coaching.

Maybe you are right, maybe he is. But if you are paying a guy to play like a top 3 player and be it of a fault of his own, or someone else's, he hasn't done it in the past several years, do you just give him a pass and keep paying him without getting a value for your return?

Bottom line, he's not getting the job done. He's getting older, he's constantly injured and frankly he plays rather soft. Poor QB play aside, he's not worth what we pay him.

Yes we have other issues, but if we get a good enough return on him, he can help us correct some of those other issues simply by going and playing somewhere else.

BeefStew25
11-20-2017, 04:11 PM
You are.

Serious.

Rick
11-20-2017, 04:15 PM
Serious.

"Dead" serious.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-20-2017, 04:22 PM
Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck
34m34 minutes ago

Troy Renck Retweeted Ryan Koenigsberg

If Paxton doesn't play this week, it's because staff doesn't believe ready to execute the game plan. He has been deemed healthy. #Broncos #Denver7

Slick
11-20-2017, 04:28 PM
Maybe you are right, maybe he is. But if you are paying a guy to play like a top 3 player and be it of a fault of his own, or someone else's, he hasn't done it in the past several years, do you just give him a pass and keep paying him without getting a value for your return?

Bottom line, he's not getting the job done. He's getting older, he's constantly injured and frankly he plays rather soft. Poor QB play aside, he's not worth what we pay him.

Yes we have other issues, but if we get a good enough return on him, he can help us correct some of those other issues simply by going and playing somewhere else.

I fail to see how dumping DT is going to solve any issues. A young QB will need him and Emanuel and hopefully a slot guy. Denver should be looking to add to the offense, not take away from it. There aren't many guys better than DT.

Denver doesn't need the cap room so when I read stuff like "we need to let go of DT or Aqib Talib" arguably two of their best players, I don't get that point of view.

Let's cut known for unknown even though Denver isn't in cap trouble?

Northman
11-20-2017, 04:30 PM
The price tag of 12m is irrelevant IF he is producing.

IF he was producing, if they did go to a rookie next year or they did go with PL, having a producing DT is a security blanket.

Nothing like hey kid, go out there and learn on the job, and while you are at it go throw to a bunch of nobody's.

Thats just it though, its not really a make or break with DT in my opinion. When Calvin Johnson retired everyone (including myself) thought the Lions and Stafford would go in the tank. That didnt happen. When the Skins traded away all of Cousins best receivers i once again thought that he would struggle on offense, again didnt happen and has still been very productive on the offensive side of the ball. Right now, the Rams have a winning record throwing to a bunch of nobodies, The Vikings are throwing to a bunch of nobodies, The Pats are still throwing to a bunch of nobodies at the WR position. Meanwhile, teams like Arizona (Fitz), Denver (DT), Dallas (Dez) are all struggling to win ballgames even with some of the best WR's in professional football. I just think at this juncture that the WR position is starting to become a lot like the RB position now where its not as necessary to have the ONE talented player and instead have a group of guys who may not be great but are good enough to get the job done.

Northman
11-20-2017, 04:33 PM
Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck
34m34 minutes ago

Troy Renck Retweeted Ryan Koenigsberg

If Paxton doesn't play this week, it's because staff doesn't believe ready to execute the game plan. He has been deemed healthy. #Broncos #Denver7

:lol:

This should make DT88's head explode.

VonDoom
11-20-2017, 04:44 PM
Aren't all three guys going to "learn" the new game plan this week with Musgrave? Are they saying that Siemian and Osweiler could pick it up better than Lynch?

In any case, this is a good week to start Lynch - Musgrave can scheme for him in particular (RPO, half field reads, etc) and the Raiders defense is just plain bad. They've allowed QB's to complete 72% of their passes (!) and have no interceptions through ten games, which I believe is a first in the modern era. You can't find a softer landing spot to take the gloves off Lynch.

Dreadnought
11-20-2017, 04:50 PM
I fail to see how dumping DT is going to solve any issues. A young QB will need him and Emanuel and hopefully a slot guy. Denver should be looking to add to the offense, not take away from it. There aren't many guys better than DT.

Denver doesn't need the cap room so when I read stuff like "we need to let go of DT or Aqib Talib" arguably two of their best players, I don't get that point of view.

Let's cut known for unknown even though Denver isn't in cap trouble?

I blame his vegan diet. He needs to chow down on large quantities of meat, eggs, and cheese.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 04:51 PM
I fail to see how dumping DT is going to solve any issues. A young QB will need him and Emanuel and hopefully a slot guy. Denver should be looking to add to the offense, not take away from it. There aren't many guys better than DT.

Denver doesn't need the cap room so when I read stuff like "we need to let go of DT or Aqib Talib" arguably two of their best players, I don't get that point of view.

Let's cut known for unknown even though Denver isn't in cap trouble?

Denver doesn’t have 3 WR’s and people wanna get rid of one?

Bold strategy, Cotton.

Tned
11-20-2017, 04:54 PM
Aren't all three guys going to "learn" the new game plan this week with Musgrave? Are they saying that Siemian and Osweiler could pick it up better than Lynch?

In any case, this is a good week to start Lynch - Musgrave can scheme for him in particular (RPO, half field reads, etc) and the Raiders defense is just plain bad. They've allowed QB's to complete 72% of their passes (!) and have no interceptions through ten games, which I believe is a first in the modern era. You can't find a softer landing spot to take the gloves off Lynch.

Well, I think based on everything we've heard/read, that it is likely that Lynch will have a harder time with a switchover than Brock or Siemian, but if he's going to play at the pro level, he needs to be able to learn and perform. Put him in coach.

Davii
11-20-2017, 04:58 PM
And that's precisely why any attempt to paint this as accountability rings a bit hollow. I agree McCoy needed to go. But he's not the only one.

It didn't help matters that the firing was telegraphed...

Sure, others need to go. What has been the BIGGEST problem? Isn't that where you should start?

Freyaka
11-20-2017, 05:09 PM
I fail to see how dumping DT is going to solve any issues. A young QB will need him and Emanuel and hopefully a slot guy. Denver should be looking to add to the offense, not take away from it. There aren't many guys better than DT.

Denver doesn't need the cap room so when I read stuff like "we need to let go of DT or Aqib Talib" arguably two of their best players, I don't get that point of view.

Let's cut known for unknown even though Denver isn't in cap trouble?

We need cap (even if you don't believe it, we've got 30 players whose contracts expire this year and only $20M to spend on them. We also need draft picks) If we can trade him to someone, we kill two birds with one stone.

He's part of the issue with this team. We have a culture of softness and he is the king of soft on this team.

Freyaka
11-20-2017, 05:12 PM
Thats just it though, its not really a make or break with DT in my opinion. When Calvin Johnson retired everyone (including myself) thought the Lions and Stafford would go in the tank. That didnt happen. When the Skins traded away all of Cousins best receivers i once again thought that he would struggle on offense, again didnt happen and has still been very productive on the offensive side of the ball. Right now, the Rams have a winning record throwing to a bunch of nobodies, The Vikings are throwing to a bunch of nobodies, The Pats are still throwing to a bunch of nobodies at the WR position. Meanwhile, teams like Arizona (Fitz), Denver (DT), Dallas (Dez) are all struggling to win ballgames even with some of the best WR's in professional football. I just think at this juncture that the WR position is starting to become a lot like the RB position now where its not as necessary to have the ONE talented player and instead have a group of guys who may not be great but are good enough to get the job done.

Yup, free up that cap space for someone like Rodgers, Brees, Luck or Rivers. It's far more important to have a top tier QB than it is a top tier WR. Especially when the top tier WR limps off the field after just about every catch.

VonDoom
11-20-2017, 05:17 PM
We need cap (even if you don't believe it, we've got 30 players whose contracts expire this year and only $20M to spend on them. We also need draft picks) If we can trade him to someone, we kill two birds with one stone.

He's part of the issue with this team. We have a culture of softness and he is the king of soft on this team.

We only free up like 5 million next year by cutting or trading him and have an 8 million cap hit. Compensation would have to be amazing

BroncoWave
11-20-2017, 05:22 PM
I would love to get something for DT but I think his contract makes him untradeable. All the other teams see the same thing on tape we see, so I doubt he'd draw much interest for the price tag he has.

Northman
11-20-2017, 05:24 PM
I would love to get something for DT but I think his contract makes him untradeable. All the other teams see the same thing on tape we see, so I doubt he'd draw much interest for the price tag he has.

Em, i dont know man. I mean shit, the Browns took Brock's contract knowing what he was so a player who has at least been productive like DT could most certainly draw attention for a team that is one player away from making a run.

Shazam!
11-20-2017, 05:28 PM
Im sorry but DT is just not the same player since his hip injury. His best days are behind him. That Tebow TD pass was in 2012. If he can be traded, deal him.

dogfish
11-20-2017, 05:39 PM
I actually disagree, for the most part. While there may be some scapegoating I think it's clear McCoy needed to go. VJ was a defensive coach before coming here, as an OC and as a position coach. I believe McCoy was given, more or less, total control of the offensive side of the ball other than Vance saying "hey we need to run more" or whatever during the game. The offense has CLEARLY been the biggest hurdle the Broncos have had to overcome. Special teams is next on the list, and the Defense is the best unit on the team (although looking pretty bad lately). If the rumors we are hearing about the playsheet not being practiced are true there is no doubt McCoy needed to go. About time we see some real consequences to the staff. I don't understand why Olivo still has a job, he needs to be kicked to the curb as well.


Kind of. I see it as Elway may be accepting responsibility for a mistake. But offensive production/turnovers is the major problem with the team. Not adapting to the players talent-level (or lack thereof) is a major mark against him. We stubbornly refused to add help to the RT, we stubbornly insisted on running 3 WR sets in which 1) had no benefit/reward on majority of plays, 2) cost the team as the majority of INTs have come out of that set, and 3) resulted in tons of blown up plays because defenders were either on the RB or QB before the play developed.

I still say McCoy should not get credit for Tebow either (as much credit as you can give Tebow anyways). We stubbornly refused to let Tebow be Tebow for the 1st 3 quarters of those games when he played and tried to force him in to something he wasn't. It wasn't until the 4th quarter that we started calling plays that benefitted his play style.


Yea, I'm not sure why the claims of scapgoating are being thrown around.

McCoy was brought in to run the offense. The offense has sucked. So, when that happens, one of two actions usually takes place. 1. Fire the OC. 2. Relieve OC of play calling duties. Granted, they could have gone with number two, but since Musgrave will probably have his own scheme, it makes more sense to have a clean break.

McCoy, like Kubiak before him, did not do a good job of creating a gameplan to work within the limitations of talent he has to work with. Lots of teams have bad lines or young QBs or whatever. A good OC will create a scheme to maximize player talent, and work around/cover up player flaws. McCoy did not.


you can't make a good argument that mccoy shouldn't have been fired, and i certainly won't try. . . however, i think it's absolutely and clearly scapegoating. . . the entire group is underperforming badly, management knew it was time for a shakeup. . . mccoy was simply the easiest to replace, and by blaming the offense, they can escape for the moment from accepting blame for the larger failures of the entire team. . . but if it's purely results based, anyone explain to me why olivo wasn't the first to go?



Sure, others need to go. What has been the BIGGEST problem? Isn't that where you should start?

i would argue that special teams has honestly been the very worst offender. . . not sure if there's a "rating" we can go to for that, but stats are for nerds anyway. . . :D i do know that when your unit only touches the ball like a dozen times a game, and still finds ways to screw up multiple times every damn game (including crushing turnovers), that is utterly unacceptable. . . none of mccoy's sins were any more egregious than olivo's squad flat-out giving new england a W. . . here at home, too. . .

more so, i would advance the argument that olivo was given quite a bit more to work with than mccoy. . . brock inherited one of the league's best kickers (see recent contract), and a perfectly solid punter and long snapper-- plus quality 'teams' guys like cody latimer, janovitch, fowler, zaire anderson, and will parks. . . plus they got him a lot in the draft-- carlos henderson, deangelo henderson, mckenzie and brendan langley were all drafted with an eye towards special teams. . . we made it a real focus. . . and olivo has totally bombed, we can't do anything right in that phase. . .

does that mean he's a "bigger problem" than mike mccoy and his failures? i don't know. . . mccoy's responsibility is greater, which makes it hurt worse when his unit is garbage. . . of course, if we're honestly talking about "the biggest problem," i would say number one is we don't have a usable quarterback, and number two is our head coach is a dunce. . . neither of those things are mccoy's fault at all, but he's the one getting the axe today. . . again, i won't cry for him, or miss him. . . his offense was one of the worst in the league, his firing is justified. . . then again, vance joseph's team is one of the worst in the league. . . i would say he should consider himself lucky to still have his job, if mccoy can be justifiably canned after only ten games on the job because his guys aren't getting it done. . . and frankly, vance, like olivo, inherited better overall personnel than mccoy. . . the fact that stuff is coming out about DT is a nice indication of where we stand talent-wise on offense, because he and sanders are clearly the only thing resembling playmakers that we have on that side of the ball. . .



What if McCoy's firing is a message to the rest of the coaches (and by extension, players)? Could it be that Elway had a private conversation with VJ that McCoy needs to be fired and if Elway had to do the firing McCoy may not be the only coach packing their office?

i think this is closer to what actually happened. . . but to me that basically IS scapegoating if we're saying that mike mccoy got fired so that vance joseph didn't have to. . . the whole team is undisciplined and not ready to play, and all three coordinators have been getting the least out of their units. . . those are head coaching issues, but it's easier to fire the OC when you conveniently have an experienced replacement already on hand. . . vance will now be given at least the rest of the year to improve his own sorry performance, and they now have yet another built-in excuse to avoid the embarrassment of putting lynch out there to flail around. . .

GEM
11-20-2017, 05:40 PM
He's not the same guy that earned the contract they gave him. I love DT, but he's playing like he's protecting himself. Hardly any YAC, and just seems "different".

I know he's once again on pace for close to 1,000 yards this season, but he just doesn't seem like the same player.

Watching him yesterday, my dad and I both said he has lost a step, not getting separation. Is that due to the vegan diet? I don't know, but both him and Fowler are on this diet, maybe it's given both a case of the dropsies as they've both had some issues with it.

dogfish
11-20-2017, 05:44 PM
Em, i dont know man. I mean shit, the Browns took Brock's contract knowing what he was so a player who has at least been productive like DT could most certainly draw attention for a team that is one player away from making a run.

sure, except probably no one is a fading $12 million dollar receiver away from making a run. . .

the texans had to "throw in" a second round pick to trade brock-- we sure as hell can't be doing anything like that. . . i would like to know if they've approached DT about re-doing the deal. . . that's really where it should start-- cutting him or trading him to free up five million in cap space isn't smart or efficient management. . .

HORSEPOWER 56
11-20-2017, 05:47 PM
DT isn’t soft, he’s been ridden hard and put away wet since he’s been here. 5 straight seasons over 1000 yards, just tied Shannon Sharpe for second all time receiving TDs by a Bronco. The only Bronco to show up and play with some heart during our Super Bowl blowout. The guy has the mileage and stats to show he’s not “soft”. Is he often knicked up? **** yeah, but how many games has he missed? ZERO in 5 years. How many years spent on IR? None. Oh yeah, he doesn’t do that, he makes big plays and then limps back to the LOS after getting his legs rolled up on or getting his clock cleaned because the QB under-threw him or hung him out to dry on another “jump ball”.

Yeah, lately he goes down easier than when he was 22 years old, but why get lit up and beat down trying to fight for yardage when the rest of the offense sucks donkey balls? He’s still a top 10 WR in this league. Never mistake him for being “soft”.

GEM
11-20-2017, 05:49 PM
The Browns took Oz to hit their cap floor and the 2nd, basically bought the 2nd round pick.

dogfish
11-20-2017, 05:54 PM
Thats just it though, its not really a make or break with DT in my opinion. When Calvin Johnson retired everyone (including myself) thought the Lions and Stafford would go in the tank. That didnt happen. When the Skins traded away all of Cousins best receivers i once again thought that he would struggle on offense, again didnt happen and has still been very productive on the offensive side of the ball. Right now, the Rams have a winning record throwing to a bunch of nobodies, The Vikings are throwing to a bunch of nobodies, The Pats are still throwing to a bunch of nobodies at the WR position. Meanwhile, teams like Arizona (Fitz), Denver (DT), Dallas (Dez) are all struggling to win ballgames even with some of the best WR's in professional football. I just think at this juncture that the WR position is starting to become a lot like the RB position now where its not as necessary to have the ONE talented player and instead have a group of guys who may not be great but are good enough to get the job done.

i think there's a lot of truth to this. . . randy moss, calvin, TO and chad johnson don't have a ring between 'em. . . we even talked about it here when DT and sanders got their extensions-- it absolutely isn't ideal to build your offense from the outside in. . . what were we gonna do, though? it's hard to let guys walk when they're the only talent you have on that side of the ball-- having zero talent is also far from an ideal situation. . . the teams you mentioned all get by with mediocre receivers because they have a quarterback. . .

wayninja
11-20-2017, 06:02 PM
Sure, others need to go. What has been the BIGGEST problem? Isn't that where you should start?

I think you could make the case that special teams has been more of a disaster than the offense, but it's definitely debatable. I wouldn't argue that our biggest problem is offense though. Still, there's a LOT of fault here and no units playing good football. So, I have no problem "starting", as long as it's not "ending" with McCoy.

But I have a feeling McCoy is being offered up as the sacrifice to justify another year with this HC, even if we remain just as impotent the rest of the way.

ShaneFalco
11-20-2017, 06:04 PM
Kind of. I see it as Elway may be accepting responsibility for a mistake. But offensive production/turnovers is the major problem with the team. Not adapting to the players talent-level (or lack thereof) is a major mark against him. We stubbornly refused to add help to the RT, we stubbornly insisted on running 3 WR sets in which 1) had no benefit/reward on majority of plays, 2) cost the team as the majority of INTs have come out of that set, and 3) resulted in tons of blown up plays because defenders were either on the RB or QB before the play developed.

I still say McCoy should not get credit for Tebow either (as much credit as you can give Tebow anyways). We stubbornly refused to let Tebow be Tebow for the 1st 3 quarters of those games when he played and tried to force him in to something he wasn't. It wasn't until the 4th quarter that we started calling plays that benefitted his play style.

the truth. Mccoy was a handicap.

He and his no blocking TE plays drove me nuts.

Tned
11-20-2017, 06:06 PM
you can't make a good argument that mccoy shouldn't have been fired, and i certainly won't try. . . however, i think it's absolutely and clearly scapegoating. . . the entire group is underperforming badly, management knew it was time for a shakeup. . . mccoy was simply the easiest to replace, and by blaming the offense, they can escape for the moment from accepting blame for the larger failures of the entire team. . . but if it's purely results based, anyone explain to me why olivo wasn't the first to go?

Absolutely, but we can't get past the fact that the biggest and most consistently failing piece is the offense. Now, I know many try and use the QBs as the scapegoat for missed blocks in the passing and running game, poor TE play, WRs running the wrong routes, receiver drops, etc., but the fact is that the entire unit is under performing and has been most of the year. Other units have had ups and downs and bad games, the offense has only had a few good games, period.

That's on McCoy. Not many teams aren't going to fire the OC at this point. At minimum they would remove his play calling duties, but firing is pretty normal and earned at this point.



i would argue that special teams has honestly been the very worst offender. . . not sure if there's a "rating" we can go to for that, but stats are for nerds anyway. . . :D i do know that when your unit only touches the ball like a dozen times a game, and still finds ways to screw up multiple times every damn game (including crushing turnovers), that is utterly unacceptable. . . none of mccoy's sins were any more egregious than olivo's squad flat-out giving new england a W. . . here at home, too. . .


The difference is that the offense has done it nearly every game, where ST's has screwed up multiple games, like the defense has had multiple bad games. If the offense was playing even average NFL ball, then it would have been in a position to pickup the special teams unit when it had a bad game, or help out the defense when they were gashed. Instead, ST and D has to play perfect to overcome the offensive inadequacies.


more so, i would advance the argument that olivo was given quite a bit more to work with than mccoy. . . brock inherited one of the league's best kickers (see recent contract), and a perfectly solid punter and long snapper-- plus quality 'teams' guys like cody latimer, janovitch, fowler, zaire anderson, and will parks. . . plus they got him a lot in the draft-- carlos henderson, deangelo henderson, mckenzie and brendan langley were all drafted with an eye towards special teams. . . we made it a real focus. . . and olivo has totally bombed, we can't do anything right in that phase. . .


Let's face it while they've struggled, the two most glaring things have been McManus' early struggles and McKenzies fumbles. McManus is good and you just had to ride it out. When the rookie muffed his 2nd or 3rd or 4th punt, at a certain point continuing to run him out there was ridiculous.


does that mean he's a "bigger problem" than mike mccoy and his failures? i don't know. . . mccoy's responsibility is greater, which makes it hurt worse when his unit is garbage. . . of course, if we're honestly talking about "the biggest problem," i would say number one is we don't have a usable quarterback, and number two is our head coach is a dunce. . . neither of those things are mccoy's fault at all, but he's the one getting the axe today. . . again, i won't cry for him, or miss him. . . his offense was one of the worst in the league, his firing is justified. . . then again, vance joseph's team is one of the worst in the league. . . i would say he should consider himself lucky to still have his job, if mccoy can be justifiably canned after only ten games on the job because his guys aren't getting it done. . . and frankly, vance, like olivo, inherited better overall personnel than mccoy. . . the fact that stuff is coming out about DT is a nice indication of where we stand talent-wise on offense, because he and sanders are clearly the only thing resembling playmakers that we have on that side of the ball. . .

i think this is closer to what actually happened. . . but to me that basically IS scapegoating if we're saying that mike mccoy got fired so that vance joseph didn't have to. . . the whole team is undisciplined and not ready to play, and all three coordinators have been getting the least out of their units. . . those are head coaching issues, but it's easier to fire the OC when you conveniently have an experienced replacement already on hand. . . vance will now be given at least the rest of the year to improve his own sorry performance, and they now have yet another built-in excuse to avoid the embarrassment of putting lynch out there to flail around. . .


Sometimes when we hear hooves, it really is a horse and not unicorns. This is being way overthought. Defense is top five or so (depending on the category) and the offense is in the bottom half to 1/3 (probably worse if you remove what now looks like the 2-3 good games anomaly).

McCoy was not utilizing a scheme that allowed the players to be successful. That's on him. When OC's fail that badly, they get fired.

Now, I think a case for Brock's head also being on the chopping block is totally valid, it's just that the ST failures don't absolve the much, much greater sin, which is the failure to get any offensive production, but worse, offensive cohesion. One of the reasons that VJ had to come out and multiple time say it wasn't all on Trevor or Brock, was because the players were running wrong routes and not where they were supposed to be.

How often have guys like DT or Sanders run wrong routes before? There is a reason they are making rookie mistakes, so you either have to assume that they've massively regressed as 6-8 year vets, or the problem is with McCoy's scheme and player preparation.

DT88TheGreat
11-20-2017, 06:08 PM
Lmao mike McCoy gone sends a big time message.

DT88TheGreat
11-20-2017, 06:10 PM
Don't look for Joseph too be fired. Joseph fired McCoy for good reason. His play calling is just dry. He took nothing from his time with manning and applied it to his scheme. That's where he failed.

BroncoTech
11-20-2017, 06:22 PM
People keep bringing up Lynch as if he has anything to do with anything. Has anyone outside of media speculation said anything about Lynch starting? This staff is so inept that I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t play at all. VJ is too stupid and Elway is too prideful to call this season a failure and try to move on.

If I were the Broncos I wouldn't make any film available on Lynch, maybe we can trade for a 7th rounder for him. The interception that was almost a pick six should have been 1 or 2 running plays. I'm pretty sure that sealed McCoy's fate right there. I saw us shifting a linebacker out of the running play's gap moments before the snap. Wade would have had the men in the right position. Since Jimmy Johnson's first year was 1-15, I would give Vance another year, but refer to him as last-chance-Vance.

dogfish
11-20-2017, 06:26 PM
if mccoy's coaching was the main issue, then that should be obvious when musgrave gets better results out of this offense. . . he'll be the third OC to try in the past year and a half, so i'll wish him good luck. . . i won't be holding my breath-- i don't think even a brilliant playcaller could get much out of this group of schlubs. . .

Dreadnought
11-20-2017, 06:32 PM
Thats just it though, its not really a make or break with DT in my opinion. When Calvin Johnson retired everyone (including myself) thought the Lions and Stafford would go in the tank. That didnt happen. When the Skins traded away all of Cousins best receivers i once again thought that he would struggle on offense, again didnt happen and has still been very productive on the offensive side of the ball. Right now, the Rams have a winning record throwing to a bunch of nobodies, The Vikings are throwing to a bunch of nobodies, The Pats are still throwing to a bunch of nobodies at the WR position. Meanwhile, teams like Arizona (Fitz), Denver (DT), Dallas (Dez) are all struggling to win ballgames even with some of the best WR's in professional football. I just think at this juncture that the WR position is starting to become a lot like the RB position now where its not as necessary to have the ONE talented player and instead have a group of guys who may not be great but are good enough to get the job done.

Excellent post - and I couldn't agree more with the bolded portion. I hate the whole concept of a supposed "Number 1" receiver - I'd rather field a number of good WR's than a single go-to guy

Denver Native (Carol)
11-20-2017, 06:43 PM
CENTENNIAL, Colo. -- The idea for a change began after the Philadelphia game. The Eagles routed the Broncos, and Brock Osweiler looked like a taller, turnover-prone version of the benched Trevor Siemian. The Broncos stuck with offensive coordinator Mike McCoy through two more losses, including the first at home to the Cincinnati Bengals since 1975.

Coach Vance Joseph's patience expired Monday morning. They say the eye in the sky in the NFL does not lie. After watching the game film, Joseph called in McCoy and fired him, replacing him with Bill Musgrave.

McCoy was Joseph's first hire, the man Broncos country believed could revive Denver's awful offense. Ten games into the season he is gone, and oddly, few are surprised. The players liked and respected McCoy, but did not mesh with his game plans. His call sheet on game day often featured more than 250 plays, a dense model that proved inefficient, particularly in the passing game.

rest - http://www.thedenverchannel.com/sports/broncos/broncos-players-react-to-mike-mccoys-firing

Buff
11-20-2017, 06:46 PM
OK so I went from being lukewarm on this move to now being absolutely embarrassed by it... We decided that in addition to losing we should now start acting like a bush league organization.

Case in point:
https://twitter.com/MikeKlis/status/932659652797411328

I seriously cannot believe that someone actually cited this as a reason for firing the OC. So basically, the OC was too advanced and his scheme is intended for actual grown-up professionals who are capable of mastering an entire playbook. Whereas WE need someone a little more junior who can dumb things down and bring this back down to a remedial level to suit our stoopid talentless players.

I mean - beyond that, they do the chicken shit anonymous griping to the media tossing their colleague under the bus... A colleague mind you, who has taken the high road at every possible opportunity in his multiple stints in Denver.

VJ is dead to me. Guy is bush league. He should have resigned and promoted McCoy to HC. Elway better get a handle on all of this really quick because it's snowballing into an utter dumpster fire.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-20-2017, 06:47 PM
Nicki Jhabvala‏Verified account @NickiJhabvala

Brandon Marshall on Vance Joseph: "He's a first-year head coach at a tough organization, a winning organization that doesn't have a lot of patience. I want to get it done for him and I know everybody else wants to get it done for him."

Tned
11-20-2017, 06:51 PM
OK so I went from being lukewarm on this move to now being absolutely embarrassed by it... We decided that in addition to losing we should now start acting like a bush league organization.

Case in point:

I seriously cannot believe that someone actually cited this as a reason for firing the OC. So basically, the OC was too advanced and his scheme is intended for actual grown-up professionals who are capable of mastering an entire playbook. Whereas WE need someone a little more junior who can dumb things down and bring this back down to a remedial level to suit our stoopid talentless players.

I mean - beyond that, they do the chicken shit anonymous griping to the media tossing their colleague under the bus... A colleague mind you, who has taken the high road at every possible opportunity in his multiple stints in Denver.

VJ is dead to me. Guy is bush league. He should have resigned and promoted McCoy to HC. Elway better get a handle on all of this really quick because it's snowballing into an utter dumpster fire.

I believe I read elsewhere that those comments (about calling plays they hadn't practiced) came from the players, not leaks from the front office.

Bottom line, watching the game, it's been clear that the players were out of sync far too often. Running wrong routes. Having trouble getting into formations. Etc. Maybe his offense was geared to a bunch of high IQ Ivy leaguers and we have bush leaaguers, but that's still on him. His job is to get the most out of the players he has to work with, not continuously put them in a position to fail.

Buff
11-20-2017, 06:54 PM
I believe I read elsewhere that those comments (about calling plays they hadn't practiced) came from the players, not leaks from the front office.

Bottom line, watching the game, it's been clear that the players were out of sync far too often. Running wrong routes. Having trouble getting into formations. Etc. Maybe his offense was geared to a bunch of high IQ Ivy leaguers and we have bush leaaguers, but that's still on him. His job is to get the most out of the players he has to work with, not continuously put them in a position to fail.

Part of the reason Kubiak/Rico had to move on was because their offense was dated and not sophisticated enough for 2017. Now the problem is that our offense is too sophisticated? It's total bullshit spin - the HC and the GM scapegoated a perfectly capable coordinator for their failures. Period.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 06:55 PM
OK so I went from being lukewarm on this move to now being absolutely embarrassed by it... We decided that in addition to losing we should now start acting like a bush league organization.

Case in point:

I seriously cannot believe that someone actually cited this as a reason for firing the OC. So basically, the OC was too advanced and his scheme is intended for actual grown-up professionals who are capable of mastering an entire playbook. Whereas WE need someone a little more junior who can dumb things down and bring this back down to a remedial level to suit our stoopid talentless players.

I mean - beyond that, they do the chicken shit anonymous griping to the media tossing their colleague under the bus... A colleague mind you, who has taken the high road at every possible opportunity in his multiple stints in Denver.

VJ is dead to me. Guy is bush league. He should have resigned and promoted McCoy to HC. Elway better get a handle on all of this really quick because it's snowballing into an utter dumpster fire.

I'm not disagreeing, but I think the bigger issue here is not that the McCoy offense was too complicated (didn't look very complicated to me), it's that the coach is calling plays not practiced.

I'm no coach, but that seems... "bush league".

Buff
11-20-2017, 06:58 PM
I'm not disagreeing, but I think the bigger issue here is not that the McCoy offense was too complicated (didn't look very complicated to me), it's that the coach is calling plays not practiced.

I'm no coach, but that seems... "bush league".

It literally happened every week under Manning because he held everyone to the highest standard. It happens every week under Brady. You have the gameplan, and then you have some variants that you pull out based on game flow and unexpected looks the defense throws you. That's how you consistently win in this league - to be more prepared than the other team. We are on the other end of the spectrum right now.

Tned
11-20-2017, 06:59 PM
I believe I read elsewhere that those comments (about calling plays they hadn't practiced) came from the players, not leaks from the front office.

Bottom line, watching the game, it's been clear that the players were out of sync far too often. Running wrong routes. Having trouble getting into formations. Etc. Maybe his offense was geared to a bunch of high IQ Ivy leaguers and we have bush leaaguers, but that's still on him. His job is to get the most out of the players he has to work with, not continuously put them in a position to fail.

Someone please at scapegoated to **** and ***** and **** in the word ban filter so I never have to see the silly point being made again.

Tned
11-20-2017, 07:00 PM
P.S. Those words started with F, P and C.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 07:00 PM
It literally happened every week under Manning because he held everyone to the highest standard. It happens every week under Brady. You have the gameplan, and then you have some variants that you pull out based on game flow and unexpected looks the defense throws you. That's how you consistently win in this league - to be more prepared than the other team. We are on the other end of the spectrum right now.

I can't tell if we are in agreement. I agree that preparedness is important. I also believe that if you aren't practicing plays until gametime, then you aren't prepared.

That's on McCoy.

Lots of shit rolls up that hill for various reasons, but not practicing what you call? If true, that's... nutty.

Cugel
11-20-2017, 07:03 PM
Part of the reason Kubiak/Rico had to move on was because their offense was dated and not sophisticated enough for 2017. Now the problem is that our offense is too sophisticated? It's total bullshit spin - the HC and the GM scapegoated a perfectly capable coordinator for their failures. Period.

You don't see Belichick using plays that his team can't execute. HE figures out to begin the season what his players can do well and what they can't and he avoids the latter.

That is good coaching. McCoy didn't do that. He doesn't have Peyton or Philip Rivers here. His play calling needed to understand that he's got inexperienced QBs who cannot execute the complexity that far more experienced Qbs struggle to execute.

So, yes, they are going to have to dumb it down for Paxton. I'm fine with that.

If you want to blame Elway for drafting Paxton instead of Dak Prescott, go ahead. That is the mistake he made. He drafted a guy in the first round that every scout had rated as a first round QB talent. Dallas would have drafted him if Denver passed. Sometimes a guy is just a bust and nobody expected it.

That's apparently what happened. I say apparently because they are still trying to get something out of Paxton. We'll see over the next 6 games whether that has any hope or not.

Cugel
11-20-2017, 07:08 PM
Oh, and the reason Rico moved on had nothing to do with the Kubiak offense being "outdated." That was the FAN reaction, and had nothing to do with why Elway fired him. The Kubiak offense works fine - IF you have the players to execute it.

The problem is that the 97-98 Broncos had HOF LT Gary Zimmerman, RT Tony Jones, G Mark Schlereth, and C Tom Nalen, not to mention HOF RB TD. This current Broncos OL has nobody worth mentioning and none of the RBs compares with TD, not even Jamaal Charles who at least had a great career, but is not the same back any more.

So, no the Kubiak system didn't work well because they didn't have the players. Rico was dumped for conflicts with Elway about the offensive performance, not because Elway thought the Kubiak system is "outdated."

Buff
11-20-2017, 07:09 PM
I can't tell if we are in agreement. I agree that preparedness is important. I also believe that if you aren't practicing plays until gametime, then you aren't prepared.

That's on McCoy.

Lots of shit rolls up that hill for various reasons, but not practicing what you call? If true, that's... nutty.

My point is that the entire playbook that you installed in training camp should always be in play... All teams condense the playbook week-to-week. So, for instance, you might have like 20-25% of your playbook in play most weeks, and you would have practiced that subsection extensively that week...

But the real grown up teams can also draw from the additional 80% if necessary. That's why Manning and Brady were such sticklers for studying, execution, etc. So the idea that we're now faulting the OC for doing what all the best teams do is crazy to me...

We ARE in agreement in so far as maybe at some point we should say "Yeah, you really can't go into the other parts of the playbook because the players can't execute" - but the idea that we're firing him over it, to me, indicates more problems with our coaching staff, and talent evaluators, than it does in McCoy's play calling abilities.

Northman
11-20-2017, 07:10 PM
i think there's a lot of truth to this. . .

Of course there is.

Buff
11-20-2017, 07:11 PM
Oh, and the reason Rico moved on had nothing to do with the Kubiak offense being "outdated." That was the FAN reaction, and had nothing to do with why Elway fired him. The Kubiak offense works fine - IF you have the players to execute it.

The problem is that the 97-98 Broncos had HOF LT Gary Zimmerman, RT Tony Jones, G Mark Schlereth, and C Tom Nalen, not to mention HOF RB TD. This current Broncos OL has nobody worth mentioning and none of the RBs compares with TD, not even Jamaal Charles who at least had a great career, but is not the same back any more.

So, no the Kubiak system didn't work well because they didn't have the players. Rico was dumped for conflicts with Elway about the offensive performance, not because Elway thought the Kubiak system is "outdated."

Why are you always so convicted in your misinformation?

DT88TheGreat
11-20-2017, 07:20 PM
Excellent post - and I couldn't agree more with the bolded portion. I hate the whole concept of a supposed "Number 1" receiver - I'd rather field a number of good WR's than a single go-to guy

Sbow me one team with a dominate passing attack thqt doesn't have one that stands out from the other's, then show me a team that has a great passing attack that doesn't have a good quarterback.....

The Broncos only problem is the quarterback, don't blame DT for being tired of running a route as his quarterback stares him down all the way so to the point he's playing defense/getting blown up once he turns for the ball.

There are quite a few teams who has a highly paid wideout.

Buy into the bullshit about just having a group of JAGS if you want.

Northman
11-20-2017, 07:21 PM
It literally happened every week under Manning because he held everyone to the highest standard. It happens every week under Brady. You have the gameplan, and then you have some variants that you pull out based on game flow and unexpected looks the defense throws you. That's how you consistently win in this league - to be more prepared than the other team. We are on the other end of the spectrum right now.

Boom.

There is a reason why BB wont waste time on players who cant grasp the playbook. One of the reasons why Moss was never retained is because he simply struggled to understand the playbook of the Pats. One reason why Tebow (despite McD being there) was not utilized in anyway was because he could not grasp the playbook. Im with you here Buff, if the Bronco players need a speak and spell to play football in Denver than we are doing it all wrong.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 07:24 PM
My point is that the entire playbook that you installed in training camp should always be in play... All teams condense the playbook week-to-week. So, for instance, you might have like 20-25% of your playbook in play most weeks, and you would have practiced that subsection extensively that week...

But the real grown up teams can also draw from the additional 80% if necessary. That's why Manning and Brady were such sticklers for studying, execution, etc. So the idea that we're now faulting the OC for doing what all the best teams do is crazy to me...

We ARE in agreement in so far as maybe at some point we should say "Yeah, you really can't go into the other parts of the playbook because the players can't execute" - but the idea that we're firing him over it, to me, indicates more problems with our coaching staff, and talent evaluators, than it does in McCoy's play calling abilities.

There's a lot of good detail here, but I'm not sure you can connect the dots of what you are saying to the tweeted rationale of not practicing. We have no idea how often McCoy is calling one of the "other" 80% plays. Maybe too much.

I can't think of another time that this was used as an excuse to fire an OC, so I have to think there is something here.

dogfish
11-20-2017, 07:25 PM
Troy Renck Retweeted Ryan Koenigsberg

If Paxton doesn't play this week, it's because staff doesn't believe ready to execute the game plan. He has been deemed healthy. #Broncos #Denver7


Well, I think based on everything we've heard/read, that it is likely that Lynch will have a harder time with a switchover than Brock or Siemian, but if he's going to play at the pro level, he needs to be able to learn and perform. Put him in coach.

if lynch at this point hasn't progressed to a level where they can even put him in a game-- particularly in light of how our other QBs have been playing-- then maybe everybody should be fired. . . good grief, just get him out there and be done with it. . . regardless of what plays musgrave is going to call, it's stuff they've all three had for the same amount of time. . . if you're worried about him embarrassing himself (or you!), or suffering psychological damage, then you picked the wrong dude. . . simple. . . put him out there and let him flop, he's not going to magically get any better over the next couple weeks. . .

wayninja
11-20-2017, 07:27 PM
It's strange to me that we've come to the conclusion that guys who have been veterans of this team for years and years, through one of the most potent offenses in NFL history, suddenly can't grasp a playbook.

Tned
11-20-2017, 07:27 PM
My point is that the entire playbook that you installed in training camp should always be in play... All teams condense the playbook week-to-week. So, for instance, you might have like 20-25% of your playbook in play most weeks, and you would have practiced that subsection extensively that week...

But the real grown up teams can also draw from the additional 80% if necessary. That's why Manning and Brady were such sticklers for studying, execution, etc. So the idea that we're now faulting the OC for doing what all the best teams do is crazy to me...

We ARE in agreement in so far as maybe at some point we should say "Yeah, you really can't go into the other parts of the playbook because the players can't execute" - but the idea that we're firing him over it, to me, indicates more problems with our coaching staff, and talent evaluators, than it does in McCoy's play calling abilities.

Sorry, Buff, you are pulling this out of your ear.

That might very well be true for an offense like Brady's that's been in place for a decade plus and is just tweaked a bit from year to year, but when a new OC comes in and has only a handful of days in the offseason (due to pussified CBA rules) to install an offense, and then four weeks for the HC to choose a team and have them practice said plays, it's ludicrous to make the case that it should be so ingrained that a "professional" should be able to refer back to something they did a walk through on in June, and maybe ran a few reps on in August and now execute it in November.

DT88TheGreat
11-20-2017, 07:28 PM
McCoy wqs fired because he was just fired for the same reason he wqs just fired lol. He was fired in San Diego because the offense was soft and not productive. Rivers threw a ton of ints last year too, he single handedly ALMOST ruined rivers. But really his play's and play calling sucks and his offenses play soft. The league has caught up to him like it did kubiak as a play caller.

Northman
11-20-2017, 07:28 PM
. put him out there and let him flop, he's not going to magically get any better over the next couple weeks. . .

Amen. The sooner we see him flop the sooner we can move on and draft another QB or sign a vet.

Davii
11-20-2017, 07:29 PM
My point is that the entire playbook that you installed in training camp should always be in play... All teams condense the playbook week-to-week. So, for instance, you might have like 20-25% of your playbook in play most weeks, and you would have practiced that subsection extensively that week...

But the real grown up teams can also draw from the additional 80% if necessary. That's why Manning and Brady were such sticklers for studying, execution, etc. So the idea that we're now faulting the OC for doing what all the best teams do is crazy to me...

We ARE in agreement in so far as maybe at some point we should say "Yeah, you really can't go into the other parts of the playbook because the players can't execute" - but the idea that we're firing him over it, to me, indicates more problems with our coaching staff, and talent evaluators, than it does in McCoy's play calling abilities.

So you think the offense has been well tailored for our players and that they seemed well prepared week in and week out?

Tned
11-20-2017, 07:29 PM
It's strange to me that we've come to the conclusion that guys who have been veterans of this team for years and years, through one of the most potent offenses in NFL history, suddenly can't grasp a playbook.

Or that vets like DT and Sanders all of a sudden became such slackers that they multiple times have found themselves not knowing where to line up or running the wrong route. Must be the vegan diet and not the offensive scheme or play calling.

DT88TheGreat
11-20-2017, 07:30 PM
Sorry, Buff, you are pulling this out of your ear.

That might very well be true for an offense like Brady's that's been in place for a decade plus and is just tweaked a bit from year to year, but when a new OC comes in and has only a handful of days in the offseason (due to pussified CBA rules) to install an offense, and then four weeks for the HC to choose a team and have them practice said plays, it's ludicrous to make the case that it should be so ingrained that a "professional" should be able to refer back to something they did a walk through on in June, and maybe ran a few reps on in August and now execute it in November.

Exactly..... Some folks thinm these players are there got damn cell phones or computers.... Well if I clicked save 8 months ago it's still there...

wayninja
11-20-2017, 07:31 PM
It's puzzling after so many great practices that a soft HC would be scapegoated.

I think I got them all in one sentence.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 07:33 PM
Or that vets like DT and Sanders all of a sudden became such slackers that they multiple times have found themselves not knowing where to line up or running the wrong route. Must be the vegan diet and not the offensive scheme or play calling.

Well, the vegan thing has wheels. That's a straight up non-football diet. But the sarcasm is on point.

Buff
11-20-2017, 07:33 PM
There's a lot of good detail here, but I'm not sure you can connect the dots of what you are saying to the tweeted rationale of not practicing. We have no idea how often McCoy is calling one of the "other" 80% plays. Maybe too much.

I can't think of another time that this was used as an excuse to fire an OC, so I have to think there is something here.


Sorry, Buff, you are pulling this out of your ear.

That might very well be true for an offense like Brady's that's been in place for a decade plus and is just tweaked a bit from year to year, but when a new OC comes in and has only a handful of days in the offseason (due to pussified CBA rules) to install an offense, and then four weeks for the HC to choose a team and have them practice said plays, it's ludicrous to make the case that it should be so ingrained that a "professional" should be able to refer back to something they did a walk through on in June, and maybe ran a few reps on in August and now execute it in November.

I mean - we are in basic agreement that it's not an effective way to call plays that outsmart your own players. He absolutely should have tried to curtail some of that... He's coming off of stints with Peyton Manning and Phil Rivers, so he probably needed to pull back on the reigns a little bit in trying to apply that to Siemian and Osweiler (god help Paxton Lynch).

But the idea that it's a fireable offense in his first season back after 10 games is absurd... We have no talent and we have shitty QBs, and so we fire our OC because the team is too shitty to execute his schemes? Sorry - I just think that stinks, and it lacks accountability from the leaders. There is a word for that, but Tned is sick of hearing it so...

Tned
11-20-2017, 07:37 PM
I mean - we are in basic agreement that it's not an effective way to call plays that outsmart your own players. He absolutely should have tried to curtail some of that... He's coming off of stints with Peyton Manning and Phil Rivers, so he probably needed to pull back on the reigns a little bit in trying to apply that to Siemian and Osweiler (god help Paxton Lynch).

But the idea that it's a fireable offense in his first season back after 10 games is absurd... We have no talent and we have shitty QBs, and so we fire our OC because the team is too shitty to execute his schemes? Sorry - I just think that stinks, and it lacks accountability from the leaders. There is a word for that, but Tned is sick of hearing it so...

It is a fireable offense if his boss told him to do so, which VJ said he did, and McCoy didn't do so. I think if you look at the transcript of either the presser or the Dave Logan interview, VJ alludes to the fact that he had a talk like that with McCoy and there was no change.

So, it was suicide by HC, apparently.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 07:39 PM
I mean - we are in basic agreement that it's not an effective way to call plays that outsmart your own players. He absolutely should have tried to curtail some of that... He's coming off of stints with Peyton Manning and Phil Rivers, so he probably needed to pull back on the reigns a little bit in trying to apply that to Siemian and Osweiler (god help Paxton Lynch).

But the idea that it's a fireable offense in his first season back after 10 games is absurd... We have no talent and we have shitty QBs, and so we fire our OC because the team is too shitty to execute his schemes? Sorry - I just think that stinks, and it lacks accountability from the leaders. There is a word for that, but Tned is sick of hearing it so...

I don't disagree... McCoy is a scapegoat. I'm ok with that word. The team needed to show that they are doing something. Firing VJ looks bad on Elway, and firing anyone else either doesn't make much sense, or seem like it's actually addressing a "problem".

So... the word scapegoat isn't unfair at all.

At the same time though, McCoy's offense has sucked out loud for basically 9 out of our 10 games.

dogfish
11-20-2017, 07:40 PM
So you think the offense has been well tailored for our players and that they seemed well prepared week in and week out?

in fairness, they should hire dave logan as OC if they want a scheme that's tailored to fit our players. . . :heh:


(for those who don't know the reference, logan is a high school coach)

Northman
11-20-2017, 07:40 PM
Its a good thing that McCoy is gone, so now if VJ cant right the ship they can replace him at the end of the season as well.

MOtorboat
11-20-2017, 07:42 PM
in fairness, they should hire dave logan as OC if they want a scheme that's tailored to fit our players. . . :heh:


(for those who don't know the reference, logan is a high school coach)

That would be amazing for the broadcast. I would listen to every second.

Buff
11-20-2017, 07:44 PM
in fairness, they should hire dave logan as OC if they want a scheme that's tailored to fit our players. . . :heh:


(for those who don't know the reference, logan is a high school coach)

Hey, the Rockies did it with Weiss! (And lost a lot, but at least the players felt comfortable.)

wayninja
11-20-2017, 07:49 PM
in fairness, they should hire dave logan as OC if they want a scheme that's tailored to fit our players. . . :heh:


(for those who don't know the reference, logan is a high school coach)

Would vote for this. 10/10.

dogfish
11-20-2017, 08:00 PM
a high school guy should be qualified to install the read-option for lynch, right?

Freyaka
11-20-2017, 08:15 PM
Sbow me one team with a dominate passing attack thqt doesn't have one that stands out from the other's, then show me a team that has a great passing attack that doesn't have a good quarterback.....

The Broncos only problem is the quarterback, don't blame DT for being tired of running a route as his quarterback stares him down all the way so to the point he's playing defense/getting blown up once he turns for the ball.

There are quite a few teams who has a highly paid wideout.

Buy into the bullshit about just having a group of JAGS if you want.

Did it ever occur to you that DT is a jag that got paid thanks to Peyton Manning? Manning makes WR's great.

No, I doubt you would admit to that since you worship DT the same way you do Paxton.

Northman
11-20-2017, 08:20 PM
Actually, DT was putting up numbers before Manning got to Denver.

MOtorboat
11-20-2017, 08:31 PM
Did it ever occur to you that DT is a jag that got paid thanks to Peyton Manning? Manning makes WR's great.

No, I doubt you would admit to that since you worship DT the same way you do Paxton.

Thomas is the only top talent on that offense. He produced before Manning got here and has produced since he left. He's producing this year even with the shit they're running out at quarterback.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 08:32 PM
Did it ever occur to you that DT is a jag that got paid thanks to Peyton Manning? Manning makes WR's great.

No, I doubt you would admit to that since you worship DT the same way you do Paxton.

DT is a jag?

Dreadnought
11-20-2017, 08:32 PM
Did it ever occur to you that DT is a jag that got paid thanks to Peyton Manning? Manning makes WR's great.

No, I doubt you would admit to that since you worship DT the same way you do Paxton.

Danny Amendola, Chris Hogan, and Julian Edelman are nothing like so-called "elite" WR's, but the Pats seem to do OK anyways. Doesn't seem to matter who they line up outside. Seahawks won a SB with pretty mediocre WR's, and a good (not great) QB. The Saints have a consistently deadly passing attack, with all the receivers being pretty much replaceable parts. A well conceived system and fine QB make average WR's look pretty damned good

Freyaka
11-20-2017, 08:34 PM
Actually, DT was putting up numbers before Manning got to Denver.

Numbers along the lines of what he was putting up last year. They were good numbers, but they weren't top 5 great. Manning took DT from a top 25 WR and turned him into top 5. When Manning declined, so did DT.

Northman
11-20-2017, 08:37 PM
Numbers along the lines of what he was putting up last year. They were good numbers, but they weren't top 5 great. Manning took DT from a top 25 WR and turned him into top 5. When Manning declined, so did DT.

Yea, but Manning took a lot of good/average receivers and allowed them to put up great numbers. While i dont think that DT is 100% necessary to winning it would be disingenuous to say he was only made when Manning was in Denver.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 08:45 PM
McCoy is 100% scapegoat, he didn’t assemble a fatally flaw offense. These same issues existed long before he was hired.

Elway failed.

MOtorboat
11-20-2017, 08:47 PM
Danny Amendola, Chris Hogan, and Julian Edelman are nothing like so-called "elite" WR's, but the Pats seem to do OK anyways. Doesn't seem to matter who they line up outside. Seahawks won a SB with pretty mediocre WR's, and a good (not great) QB. The Saints have a consistently deadly passing attack, with all the receivers being pretty much replaceable parts. A well conceived system and fine QB make average WR's look pretty damned good

Brandon Cooks and Rob Gronkowski are top tier receiving talents in the league. It is true the Saints have managed to get away with mediocre receiver talent.

But in general, I don't like getting rid of the best players on bad units. I think you should, in general, get rid of the bad players on bad units.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-20-2017, 08:57 PM
if lynch at this point hasn't progressed to a level where they can even put him in a game-- particularly in light of how our other QBs have been playing-- then maybe everybody should be fired. . . good grief, just get him out there and be done with it. . . regardless of what plays musgrave is going to call, it's stuff they've all three had for the same amount of time. . . if you're worried about him embarrassing himself (or you!), or suffering psychological damage, then you picked the wrong dude. . . simple. . . put him out there and let him flop, he's not going to magically get any better over the next couple weeks. . .

FFS, it’s not that difficult to call a run right, then a run left, then try to throw for a first down and fail, and punt... Any moron can do that. That’s all we’ve done for the first 9 games. Lynch should be able to at least do that...

VonDoom
11-20-2017, 09:40 PM
if lynch at this point hasn't progressed to a level where they can even put him in a game-- particularly in light of how our other QBs have been playing-- then maybe everybody should be fired. . . good grief, just get him out there and be done with it. . . regardless of what plays musgrave is going to call, it's stuff they've all three had for the same amount of time. . . if you're worried about him embarrassing himself (or you!), or suffering psychological damage, then you picked the wrong dude. . . simple. . . put him out there and let him flop, he's not going to magically get any better over the next couple weeks. . .

So much this.

VonDoom
11-20-2017, 09:41 PM
Brandon Cooks and Rob Gronkowski are top tier receiving talents in the league. It is true the Saints have managed to get away with mediocre receiver talent.

But in general, I don't like getting rid of the best players on bad units. I think you should, in general, get rid of the bad players on bad units.

I’m not sure why we have a fascination with bashing our best players but it happens a lot around here

DT88TheGreat
11-20-2017, 09:46 PM
Did it ever occur to you that DT is a jag that got paid thanks to Peyton Manning? Manning makes WR's great.

No, I doubt you would admit to that since you worship DT the same way you do Paxton.

Sorry but DT is respected around the league by his peers even after manning, even before manning. Dt was one of the reasons manning chose Denver, don't forget that.

Tned
11-20-2017, 09:47 PM
I’m not sure why we have a fascination with bashing our best players but it happens a lot around here

If you go through life with an attitude that the glass is three quarters empty, you will never be disappointed by what comes your way and overjoyed when you find it's half full.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 09:47 PM
Scott Hastings actually tried to claim that McCoy’s being fired was redemption/vindication for TS but literally in the same breath specifically denigrated PL.

I like how one QB gets to use this excuse but not the other, that also happens a lot around here.

Tned
11-20-2017, 09:50 PM
Scott Hastings actually tried to claim that McCoy’s being fired was redemption/vindication for TS but literally in the same breath specifically denigrated PL.

I like how one QB gets to use this excuse but not the other, that also happens a lot around here.

One has played this year under McCoy, the other has been hurt all year. What point are you trying to make?

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 09:56 PM
One has played this year under McCoy, the other has been hurt all year. What point are you trying to make?

Both were coached by McCoy.

I bet you’re fun at a comedy club, having to explain every joke to you.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 09:58 PM
Tned, Bruce Willis was dead all along and Spacey was Kaiser Sose.

VonDoom
11-20-2017, 09:59 PM
Tned, Bruce Willis was dead all along and Spacey was Kaiser Sose.

Damn it, Jaded! I was getting around to watching those

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 10:02 PM
Damn it, Jaded! I was getting around to watching those

Too soon?

Tned
11-20-2017, 10:02 PM
Tned, Bruce Willis was dead all along and Spacey was Kaiser Sose.

Entertainment forum is >>> way.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-20-2017, 10:05 PM
DT's stats - in each year, from 2012 thru 2016, he had over 1,000 receiving yards. Not sure why he now has a target on his back.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5700/demaryius-thomas

Tned
11-20-2017, 10:05 PM
Both were coached by McCoy.
.

That makes about as much sense as the average Jaded post.

One played in 7 games with McCoy's scheme and play calling. One rehabbed his shoulder. If you were making a case between Trevor and Brock, it would be legitimate, but you weren't, so your point made no sense.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 10:05 PM
Entertainment forum is >>> way.

Touché.

Well played.

BroncoWave
11-20-2017, 10:07 PM
DT's stats - in each year, from 2012 thru 2016, he had over 1,000 receiving yards. Not sure why he now has a target on his back.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5700/demaryius-thomas

25 players had at least 1000 receiving yards last season. With the way passing is in today's NFL, that's not the monumental mark it used to be.

BroncoWave
11-20-2017, 10:10 PM
In his last 4 seasons (counting this one) DT has ranked 4th, 7th, 14th, and currently 16th in receiving yards. Certainly not bad by any means, but the decline is real.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 10:10 PM
That makes about as much sense as the average Jaded post.

One played in 7 games with McCoy's scheme and play calling. One rehabbed his shoulder. If you were making a case between Trevor and Brock, it would be legitimate, but you weren't, so your point made no sense.

Ya see, Tned, PL played under McCoy long enough for you, Hastings and everyone else to conclude that he sucks. Same with TS, he sucks, it just took you, Hastings and everyone else seven weeks to come to that conclusion.

Now (conveniently) Hastings would like you and everyone else to believe that TS doesn’t suck, it was all McCoy’s fault ... yet, he wouldn’t afford the same lame ****ing excuse for PL’s poor play.

You’re problem is you struggle with hypocrisy [edit] and comprehension.

Tned
11-20-2017, 10:18 PM
Ya see, Tned, PL played under McCoy long enough for you, Hastings and everyone else to conclude that he sucks.

Talking out your ear once again, Jaded. I've been one of the few people on this forum since the offseason saying it's too early to conclude Lynch is a bust. I've stated multiple times that it's time for him to be named starter.



Same with TS, he sucks, it just took you, Hastings and everyone else seven weeks to come to that conclusion.

Hastings would like you and everyone else believe that TS doesn’t suck, it was all McCoy’s fault ... yet, he wouldn’t afford the same lame ****ing excuse for PL’s poor play.

You’re problem is you struggle with hypocrisy.


Once again your logic falls apart. Lynch hasn't played, so there is no poor play under McCoy to blame on him. You do grasp that, right? He was given every opportunity in TC, and he wasn't ready. Every person that covered the Broncos, even his most ardent supporters saw that, but then he got hurt and he couldn't be the backup, which meant he wasn't able to assume the starting role three weeks ago when Siemian was benched.

So, unless you think McCoy ordered Siemian's squad mates to sneak in and give him a code red while he was sleeping, and mess up his shoulder, your point still makes absolutely no sense.

Davii
11-20-2017, 10:19 PM
In his last 4 seasons (counting this one) DT has ranked 4th, 7th, 14th, and currently 16th in receiving yards. Certainly not bad by any means, but the decline is real.

So was the change in offense and QBs. The question is, would another receiver have the same production? It is possible that a lesser receiver could match his numbers here, however it's just as possible that another receiver would be 15th, 18th, 25th, and 30th if he were to have the exact same scenarios DT has had.

BroncoWave
11-20-2017, 10:21 PM
So was the change in offense and QBs. The question is, would another receiver have the same production? It is possible that a lesser receiver could match his numbers here, however it's just as possible that another receiver would be 15th, 18th, 25th, and 30th if he were to have the exact same scenarios DT has had.

Well obviously a lesser WR would have lesser numbers. I think that goes without saying.

Davii
11-20-2017, 10:25 PM
Well obviously a lesser WR would have lesser numbers. I think that goes without saying.

Then why jettison DT? Do you really feel that slide is him or more likely the changes in offense and terrible QB play?

wayninja
11-20-2017, 10:29 PM
DT is declining, but he's still a quality receiver. Unless we can get something that immediately replaces him in a trade (unlikely), I can't see a good reason to do anything with him at the moment. We have way bigger problems without creating new ones unless it solves some other more important issue (it doesn't).

We probably aren't getting the best bang for our buck with him, but creating a new problem isn't a smart move when there are so many other holes in the dike.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 10:31 PM
Talking out your ear once again, Jaded. I've been one of the few people on this forum since the offseason saying it's too early to conclude Lynch is a bust. I've stated multiple times that it's time for him to be named starter.



Once again your logic falls apart. Lynch hasn't played, so there is no poor play under McCoy to blame on him. You do grasp that, right? He was given every opportunity in TC, and he wasn't ready. Every person that covered the Broncos, even his most ardent supporters saw that, but then he got hurt and he couldn't be the backup, which meant he wasn't able to assume the starting role three weeks ago when Siemian was benched.

So, unless you think McCoy ordered Siemian's squad mates to sneak in and give him a code red while he was sleeping, and mess up his shoulder, your point still makes absolutely no sense.

Lynch hasn’t played under McCoy, that’s your weak ****ing excuse for an argument? He literally played for McCoy, literally, played, for, McCoy.

Tned
11-20-2017, 10:33 PM
Lynch hasn’t played under McCoy, that’s your weak ****ing excuse for an argument?

Ok, once again someone is going to have to attempt to translate Jaded into adult English.

Anyone?

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 10:34 PM
Lynch hasn’t played under McCoy, that’s your weak ****ing excuse for an argument? He literally played for McCoy, literally, played, for, McCoy.

Literally.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 10:34 PM
Ok, once again someone is going to have to attempt to translate Jaded into adult English.

Anyone?

Literally.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-20-2017, 10:35 PM
For active receivers, DT is 7th, and out of the ones in front of him, only one came into the NFL in 2010, like DT did. The others came in before that.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rec_yds_active.htm

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 10:36 PM
Paxton Lynch literally played for Mike McCoy.

We all saw Paxton Lynch, #12 , suit up in a Denver Broncos uniform and play the game of football for Offensive Coordinator Mike McCoy.

That literally happened.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 10:39 PM
Paxton Lynch literally played for Mike McCoy.

We all saw Paxton Lynch, #12 , suit up in a Denver Broncos uniform and play the game of football for Offensive Coordinator Mike McCoy.

That literally happened.

When?

Tned
11-20-2017, 10:40 PM
Paxton Lynch literally played for Mike McCoy.

We all saw Paxton Lynch, #12 , suit up in a Denver Broncos uniform and play the game of football for Offensive Coordinator Mike McCoy.

That literally happened.

Thank you for your thought out post and contribution to this topic.

Tned
11-20-2017, 10:40 PM
When?

Don't make eye contact. Don't engage. Make small movements and slowly back away...

DT88TheGreat
11-20-2017, 10:41 PM
25 players had at least 1000 receiving yards last season. With the way passing is in today's NFL, that's not the monumental mark it used to be.

Theres 32 team's in the league...... 1000 plus yards receiving that's all of a sudden gone will be felt if you don't have something to duplicate the production.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 10:43 PM
When?

You too? You’re reasonable, enough though; you’re telling me that Paxton Lynch was never coached by or played for Mike McCoy?

Or are you just playing stupid too?

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 10:45 PM
Thank you for your thought out post and contribution to this topic.

Hey, I’m here for ya, Tned. No child left behind, I say, whenever you need help don’t hesitate to ask.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 10:46 PM
You too? You’re reasonable, enough though; you’re telling me that Paxton Lynch was never coached by or played for Mike McCoy?

Or are you just playing stupid too?

I'm reasonable enough to google it and not find a single NFL game from paxton lynch in 2017 since I didn't trust memory because of how confidently you keep saying something I saw something that I can't for the life of me remember...

Are you talking about preseason? It's ok to admit that if you are....

DT88TheGreat
11-20-2017, 10:46 PM
If Mike McCoy was the Denver Broncos OC then Paxton lynch played under Mike McCoy, did he start any regular season game's no but he practiced under Mike teaching and played the pre season as well.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 10:48 PM
If Mike McCoy was the Denver Broncos OC then Paxton lynch played under Mike McCoy, did he start any regular season game's no but he practiced under Mike teaching and played the pre season as well.

No, no no. Coaching only starts in the regular season, yash.

DT88TheGreat
11-20-2017, 10:48 PM
He is saying that if it's a wasted year of learning from McCoy then it should be for Paxton and no matter how he looks this season he deserves another two year's playing under Musgrave since McCoy ruined him before he begun like he did Trevor

Tned
11-20-2017, 10:49 PM
I'm reasonable enough to google it and not find a single NFL game from paxton lynch in 2017 since I didn't trust memory because of how confidently you keep saying something I saw something that I can't for the life of me remember...

Are you talking about preseason? It's ok to admit that if you are....

In his defense, I saw him literally, i mean literally, no, really, literally on the sidelines on Sunday, in uniform.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 10:50 PM
Sorry, I'm going to go ahead and reserve judgement, both good and bad about the ~20 or so throws we saw from lynch in the preseason.

I know, It's ridiculous, but it's just how I am.

Tned
11-20-2017, 10:51 PM
Hey, I’m here for ya, Tned. No child left behind, I say, whenever you need help don’t hesitate to ask.

Thank you for your thoughtful posts calling me a stupid child.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 10:51 PM
I'm reasonable enough to google it and not find a single NFL game from paxton lynch in 2017 since I didn't trust memory because of how confidently you keep saying something I saw something that I can't for the life of me remember...

Are you talking about preseason? It's ok to admit that if you are....
Ok, so you are playing stupid.

Of course I’m talking preseason, why would I care to admit that?

So, you and Tned, your point is McCoy couldn’t possibly have helped/hurt PL because he didn’t play a regular season game. Cause they don’t coach in OTA’s, TC and preseason, that’s your weak ****ing argument?

Tned
11-20-2017, 10:51 PM
Sorry, I'm going to go ahead and reserve judgement, both good and bad about the ~20 or so throws we saw from lynch in the preseason.

I know, It's ridiculous, but it's just how I am.

Denier!!!!!!!

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 10:52 PM
Thank you for your thoughtful posts calling me a stupid child.

No, I didn’t call you a child, I said no child left behind. We’re all Gods children.

Tned
11-20-2017, 10:53 PM
No, I didn’t call you a child, I said no child left behind. We’re all Gods children.

Thank you for clarifying.

BroncoWave
11-20-2017, 10:53 PM
Then why jettison DT? Do you really feel that slide is him or more likely the changes in offense and terrible QB play?

I'm not saying to jettison DT, unless we could get fair value back for him. Which I don't think would be possible.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 10:55 PM
Ok, so you are playing stupid.

I wouldn't say playing. More like dancing drunkely with giddy excitement of the prospect of this chance encounter. Playing is fine though.


Of course I’m talking preseason, why would I care to admit that?

I have no idea. So people know whether or not to take you seriously? Just spitballin'.


So, you and Tned, your point is McCoy couldn’t possibly have helped/hurt PL because he didn’t play a regular season game. Cause they don’t coach in OTA’s, TC and preseason, that’s your weak ****ing argument?

I don't think I really had a point or an argument, but I understand where Tned is coming from on this. McCoy spent 95% of his "coaching" time with Brock and Siemian. It's not rocket science.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 10:55 PM
Sorry, I'm going to go ahead and reserve judgement, both good and bad about the ~20 or so throws we saw from lynch in the preseason.

I know, It's ridiculous, but it's just how I am.

Nobody asked for your judgements, the argument is whether or not PL played under McCoy. My point is that TS was given a convenient excuse that the other QB was not.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 10:56 PM
I wouldn't say playing. More like dancing drunkely with giddy excitement of the prospect of this chance encounter. Playing is fine though.



I have no idea. So people know whether or not to take you seriously? Just spitballin'.



I don't think I really had a point or an argument, but I understand where Tned is coming from on this. McCoy spent 95% of his "coaching" time with Brock and Siemian. It's not rocket science.



Apparently it is rocket science, or you’re just playing stupid.

I never said a single word about playing regular season, that was your weak argument.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 10:57 PM
Nobody asked for your judgements, the argument is whether or not PL played under McCoy. My point is that TS was given a convenient excuse that the other QB was not.


Ya see, Tned, PL played under McCoy long enough for you, Hastings and everyone else to conclude that he sucks.

So which is it? That he played under McCoy, or played enough for everyone to conclude he sucks? Those are 2 different arguments.

And my contention is that we haven't seen enough from Lynch under McCoy to say one way or the other. Why make a case that someone sucks because of a specific coaching (or lack theroff), if he literally hasn't thrown a single ball in a meaningful game under said coach?

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 10:58 PM
Thank you for clarifying.

Full time job.

BroncoWave
11-20-2017, 11:00 PM
So, jaded, ninja, and tned, whose is biggest?

Tned
11-20-2017, 11:01 PM
Full time job.

So, what I'm hearing is that you are a fireman, who's also secretly an arsonist.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 11:01 PM
So, jaded, ninja, and tned, whose is biggest?

Mine.

You’ll need to explain this to the other two to get their vote.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 11:01 PM
So, what I'm hearing is that you are a fireman, who's also secretly an arsonist.

This makes no sense, please spend the next hour explaining.

Tned
11-20-2017, 11:01 PM
So, jaded, ninja, and tned, whose is biggest?

No question, Jaded. His pile of BS makes what Ninja and I do look like nothing more than poodle shit.

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 11:02 PM
No question, Jaded. His pile of BS makes what Ninja and I do look like nothing more than poodle shit.

Again, you don’t get it.

Tned
11-20-2017, 11:03 PM
Speaking of McCoy being fired, I'm suddenly missing all the yapping about him being a scapegoat. Anyone want to get back to that?

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 11:05 PM
Speaking of McCoy being fired, I'm suddenly missing all the yapping about him being a scapegoat. Anyone want to get back to that?

You’re missing a great many things, I know because I get to solve them for you.

Btw, you’re the one that started this pissing match.

wayninja
11-20-2017, 11:10 PM
And Jaded, never one to let someone piss in peace, has to come and cross the streams, ghostbusters style. :D

Simple Jaded
11-20-2017, 11:13 PM
And Jaded, never one to let someone piss in peace, has to come and cross the streams, ghostbusters style. :D

I have a small bladder.

Rick
11-20-2017, 11:17 PM
Hopefully Musgrave manages something but I am not expecting the world.

Outside of his work with Carr he hasn't set the world on fire.

Hopefully he can bring something from his experience with Carr and use it here, preferably with one of our kids.

Davii
11-21-2017, 12:00 AM
I'm not saying to jettison DT, unless we could get fair value back for him. Which I don't think would be possible.

What about the rest of the question?

UnderArmour
11-21-2017, 04:56 AM
Speaking of McCoy being fired, I'm suddenly missing all the yapping about him being a scapegoat. Anyone want to get back to that?

There's really not much else to talk about. Vance Joseph led this team to 6 losses, including two blowouts by the Eagles and Patriots. Vance Joseph is supposedly a defensive coach, yet the defense, that was elite last year under Wade, has struggled to generate pressure, cover tight-ends, or generate turnovers. Drives are repeatedly being killed by the same penalties, and these aren't being taken care of in the film room. Vance Joseph's failure to bench Isiah McKenzie indicates he hardly has a hand in any phase of the game, to tell you the truth. What is he actually even doing on a daily basis, besides going to the media talking about how great the Wednesday practices are?

The way I see it, McCoy was the scapegoat and I'm just not buying it. Vance Joseph knows the clock is ticking, and why not get rid of the guy with the most head coaching experience? Could you imagine if Vance had been fired, and McCoy promoted after the inevitable 7th consecutive loss this week only for McCoy to win out? Vance would never get another HC job again. Firing McCoy and taking a possible interim guy out of the picture was one of the few moves that VJ could make to extend his career.

Actually kind of smart on his part. If only he used some of that intelligence on game day, the team wouldn't have dropped 6 in a row.

Broncoknight30
11-21-2017, 05:31 AM
Well, we will be soon identifying the turd in the punch bowl. So there is really no need to be emphatic about Mccoy being the problem, or VJ being the problem, or Elway being the problem etc.

IF the Broncos offense looks better (gets better results) under Musgrave over the last 6 weeks, we will know it was Mccoy that was the turd in the punch bowl.

IF the Broncos do not have any sort of improvement and they do the exact same things we will know it was VJ dictating to the OC what he wants.

IF Musgrave changes things up a bit and the results are the same, we will know it is ALL about the talent or lack there of, which will mean it is Elway who is responsible for the talent.

I will say this. Elway is trying to solve the problem on OL. They actually replaced 3 of the 5 from last year. Leary was one of the most sought after OLinemen in free agency and he landed him. He drafted Bolles, who is not a horrific pick, and Jackson was part of the Raiders whose OL last year was considered one of the best in the NFL.

Either way...we are closer to this.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Yk9L1TvSD7w/VKx4rAaUwrI/AAAAAAAAOGw/6zzTJ5U1ND4/s1600/turd.jpg

Northman
11-21-2017, 06:03 AM
And Jaded, never one to let someone piss in peace, has to come and cross the streams, ghostbusters style. :D

Thats probably your best line ever. :lol:

MNPatsFan
11-21-2017, 09:05 AM
Would like your opinion on something I've heard various talking heads discussing after this move. Unlike you, I don't watch every play of every Broncos game, but the talking heads essentially said that they don't believe that McCoy was the problem. They talked about how Peyton Manning and Phillip Rivers both loved McCoy, his creativity and his coaching style. They said that McCoy can't control that the QBs are very inaccurate and throw the ball 5-10 feet over the receiver's head on most passes. Specific to Brock, they mention how the Texans fired their highly regarded OC last year while Brock was their QB and now the Broncos have similarly fired McCoy while Brock is the QB.

I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle, but a number of you seem to agree that the Broncos QBs are all mediocre at best so I'm interested in your opinions on this discussion.

Freyaka
11-21-2017, 09:13 AM
He is saying that if it's a wasted year of learning from McCoy then it should be for Paxton and no matter how he looks this season he deserves another two year's playing under Musgrave since McCoy ruined him before he begun like he did Trevor

Ya...no thanks to that notion.

Tned
11-21-2017, 09:14 AM
Would like your opinion on something I've heard various talking heads discussing after this move. Unlike you, I don't watch every play of every Broncos game, but the talking heads essentially said that they don't believe that McCoy was the problem. They talked about how Peyton Manning and Phillip Rivers both loved McCoy, his creativity and his coaching style. They said that McCoy can't control that the QBs are very inaccurate and throw the ball 5-10 feet over the receiver's head on most passes. Specific to Brock, they mention how the Texans fired their highly regarded OC last year while Brock was their QB and now the Broncos have similarly fired McCoy while Brock is the QB.

I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle, but a number of you seem to agree that the Broncos QBs are all mediocre at best so I'm interested in your opinions on this discussion.

I would say somewhere in the middle.

No question that the QBs have had accuracy problems, but both of them have their accuracy and rating plummet when under pressure and are under pressure a lot. That is partially personnel (the pressure) and partially scheme/play calling. As Nicki Jhabvala (Denver Post) tried to make the point of on Sunday when she had a tweet with this in it about 10 time "Another 3 WR formation with pass rusher unblocked." She commented on it pregame and then after tweeting that, a couple minutes later, Tweeted about it happening again.

So, McCoy's refusal to move to personnel groupings that could provide some protection or even mix it up enough is on him. It's not acceptable to simply say, "well the right tackle position sucks, so we will just give up the season by letting our QBs get pummeled." Brock has done a better job avoiding sacks than Siemian, but his production has been about the same, he just has managed to scramble for an incompletion in some cases where Siemian took a sack.

Beyond that, there have been multiple INTs by both QBs where the head coach has stated that it was the receiver running the wrong route. In over three decades of watching the Broncos, I can only remember that being mentioned in a presser one time, which was when a WR wasn't on the same page as Manning on an adjusted hot route and it resulted in a pick six. To have the HC multiple times have to explain that a bad looking INT was actually a veteran wide receiver running the wrong route points to a problem.

We've had time outs called because DT and other veteran receivers didn't know where they were supposed to be in the formation.

So, I think QB inaccuracy certainly could be part of the problem, but anyone that made a case for that being the primary reason, is someone that hasn't done anything other than a superficial evaluation of the Broncos and their offensive woes this year.

Shazam!
11-21-2017, 09:14 AM
No QB can be productive behind Denver's OLine. Its like watching a train wreck.

I would have done something completely and radically different on offense to compensate for this.

Every time he went with straight 5 on the Line and 3 Wides they got wrecked. He couldn't seem to get away from the concepts that worked here years ago with PFM and in SD. They do not have the personnel to run it effectively.

Tailor to your strengths instead of forcing players to do what they cannot. Square peg round hole didn't work.

Buff
11-21-2017, 09:25 AM
Would like your opinion on something I've heard various talking heads discussing after this move. Unlike you, I don't watch every play of every Broncos game, but the talking heads essentially said that they don't believe that McCoy was the problem. They talked about how Peyton Manning and Phillip Rivers both loved McCoy, his creativity and his coaching style. They said that McCoy can't control that the QBs are very inaccurate and throw the ball 5-10 feet over the receiver's head on most passes. Specific to Brock, they mention how the Texans fired their highly regarded OC last year while Brock was their QB and now the Broncos have similarly fired McCoy while Brock is the QB.

I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle, but a number of you seem to agree that the Broncos QBs are all mediocre at best so I'm interested in your opinions on this discussion.

We have a really insecure 1st year HC with his back against the wall who felt like he needed to do something to take the heat off of himself. Seems pretty clear to me.

chazoe60
11-21-2017, 09:27 AM
Would like your opinion on something I've heard various talking heads discussing after this move. Unlike you, I don't watch every play of every Broncos game, but the talking heads essentially said that they don't believe that McCoy was the problem. They talked about how Peyton Manning and Phillip Rivers both loved McCoy, his creativity and his coaching style. They said that McCoy can't control that the QBs are very inaccurate and throw the ball 5-10 feet over the receiver's head on most passes. Specific to Brock, they mention how the Texans fired their highly regarded OC last year while Brock was their QB and now the Broncos have similarly fired McCoy while Brock is the QB.

I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle, but a number of you seem to agree that the Broncos QBs are all mediocre at best so I'm interested in your opinions on this discussion.

Thinly veiled smack.

Tned
11-21-2017, 09:34 AM
We have a really insecure 1st year HC with his back against the wall who felt like he needed to do something to take the heat off of himself. Seems pretty clear to me.

You saw nothing wrong with the play calling, schemes, protection packages, WR miscues, etc?

Tned
11-21-2017, 09:34 AM
No QB can be productive behind Denver's OLine. Its like watching a train wreck.

I would have done something completely and radically different on offense to compensate for this.

Every time he went with straight 5 on the Line and 3 Wides they got wrecked. He couldn't seem to get away from the concepts that worked here years ago with PFM and in SD. They do not have the personnel to run it effectively.

Tailor to your strengths instead of forcing players to do what they cannot. Square peg round hole didn't work.

This ^

Freyaka
11-21-2017, 09:37 AM
No QB can be productive behind Denver's OLine. Its like watching a train wreck.

I would have done something completely and radically different on offense to compensate for this.

Every time he went with straight 5 on the Line and 3 Wides they got wrecked. He couldn't seem to get away from the concepts that worked here years ago with PFM and in SD. They do not have the personnel to run it effectively.

Tailor to your strengths instead of forcing players to do what they cannot. Square peg round hole didn't work.

Seattle and Philly both have equally suck o-lines. That isn't stopping wentz or Russel.

The o-line isn't as bad as the popular narrative, the QB's are. We have to get capable QB's, period.

Buff
11-21-2017, 09:40 AM
You saw nothing wrong with the play calling, schemes, protection packages, WR miscues, etc?

Of course I did - but the idea that McCoy, a former HC and successful OC in this league, is solely responsible is total nonsense. He didn't deserve to be fired midseason - it's a scared move by an inexperienced and insecure HC as evidenced by all of the idiotic reasoning in the press yesterday.

Freyaka
11-21-2017, 10:07 AM
Of course I did - but the idea that McCoy, a former HC and successful OC in this league, is solely responsible is total nonsense. He didn't deserve to be fired midseason - it's a scared move by an inexperienced and insecure HC as evidenced by all of the idiotic reasoning in the press yesterday.

Vance is a defensive coach. His hand, it's not very visible in the offensive scheme. McCoy had basically complete control. The execution, preparedness, lack of creativity on the offensive side of the ball, they all fall on him as the person IN CHARGE of the offense. VJ isn't without blame, not by a long shot, but McCoy is the vast majority of the offensive problems. As the person who setup the scheme and sees to its implementation, there isn't really anywhere else the buck could fall.

The special teams problems, they basically fall on Brock. The defense, I think VJ's meddling had a little to do with it there. Rumor has it he's the one insisting on zone defense.

But for the offensive problems, yea, those can be lumped squarely on McCoy.

Buff
11-21-2017, 10:12 AM
Vance is a defensive coach. His hand, it's not very visible in the offensive scheme. McCoy had basically complete control. The execution, preparedness, lack of creativity on the offensive side of the ball, they all fall on him as the person IN CHARGE of the offense. VJ isn't without blame, not by a long shot, but McCoy is the vast majority of the offensive problems. As the person who setup the scheme and sees to its implementation, there isn't really anywhere else the buck could fall.

The special teams problems, they basically fall on Brock. The defense, I think VJ's meddling had a little to do with it there. Rumor has it he's the one insisting on zone defense.

But for the offensive problems, yea, those can be lumped squarely on McCoy.

If we were going to fire a coach it should have been Olivo whose Special Teams have been every bit as disastrous as our offense. Or better yet wait until the end of your first year as HC to make changes as opposed to scapegoating someone in the middle of a lost season.

Anyway - it's done. I'm beating a dead horse. But VJ lost me with the move - and I'm pretty loyal to former Buffs. I think he's in over his head and not a good leader nor an effective coach.

chazoe60
11-21-2017, 10:12 AM
In a perfect world VJ would have been fired and McCoy would have been named interim but Elway is not going to fire his guy 9 games into his first season. It's as plain as day that hiring VJ was a mistake just like drafting Lynch was a mistake, but now we have to live with it for at least one more season. It sucks but that's how I see it going down.

I just hope Elway figures out the QB and the OL sometime in the next 2 seasons. The track record suggests otherwise though.

BroncoJoe
11-21-2017, 10:17 AM
In a perfect world VJ would have been fired and McCoy would have been named interim but Elway is not going to fire his guy 9 games into his first season. It's as plain as day that hiring VJ was a mistake just like drafting Lynch was a mistake, but now we have to live with it for at least one more season. It sucks but that's how I see it going down.

I just hope Elway figures out the QB and the OL sometime in the next 2 seasons. The track record suggests otherwise though.

You gonna watch the Raider game Chazoe?

Freyaka
11-21-2017, 10:18 AM
If we were going to fire a coach it should have been Olivo whose Special Teams have been every bit as disastrous as our offense. Or better yet wait until the end of your first year as HC to make changes as opposed to scapegoating someone in the middle of a lost season.

Anyway - it's done. I'm beating a dead horse. But VJ lost me with the move - and I'm pretty loyal to former Buffs. I think he's in over his head and not a good leader nor an effective coach.

Olivo should have been fired too. Him deserving fired doesn't make Mike McCoy less deserving of the honor as well.

VJ is trying to save his job, I'm not defending VJ, I'm not a fan of him at this point either, but none of the other issues with this team mean that Mike McCoy is deserving of being here anymore.

chazoe60
11-21-2017, 10:18 AM
You gonna watch the Raider game Chazoe?

Is that who we play this week? If Lynch starts I'll DVR it but otherwise probably not. We have a ton of family stuff going on all weekend.

Buff
11-21-2017, 10:20 AM
Olivo should have been fired too. Him deserving fired doesn't make Mike McCoy less deserving of the honor as well.

VJ is trying to save his job, I'm not defending VJ, I'm not a fan of him at this point either, but none of the other issues with this team mean that Mike McCoy is deserving of being here anymore.

McCoy has a track record, Olivo is some johnny come lately. By that standard alone I'd rather have the guy who has HC experience on my staff. But again - I think the more prudent move is to take the bullets as a first year HC and try to let the guys see you leading through adversity... Instead he leaked to the media and passed the blame. Bush league and revealing of VJ's character if you ask me.