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View Full Version : Is Vance Joseph a fool?



Ground Control
11-09-2017, 11:58 PM
Not sure about this one but I wasn't privy to his brilliance at Miami. He's allegedly a rising star in the NFL. With the lineup of experienced coaches underneath him, I only thought he would have to be a good cheerleader, organizer, and ego-checker to be successful but that lineup seems to have little clue on how to right the ship, and I imagine some (McCoy) are much harder to influence than the Broncos let on...

So, maybe he's so far a failure on the ego-checker part, as egos (or maybe ids) are running rampant and there is no answer to McCoy's run of failures. I was really excited about him at first. I chose my own narrative, that McCoy was a good OC, but not so much as HC. I still think he is all that but left to his own, he becomes lost in the maze of his own version of what offense should be in the NFL and completely fails to realize that football is maybe much simpler than his brooding mind allows for. He definitely seems to have little grasp of maximizing players, contrary to the hype.

As for the rest of the coaches, no one seems to have an idea on how to make their 'great practices' a reality on the field, so...head coach, anyone?

All of this is understandable when looking at a rookie head coach, and potentially looking at a guy that showed promise but maybe is a better DC than HC. The foolery comes when listening to him in interviews and watching him on the sidelines. He is just as much the deer caught in the headlights as Siemian is when things go (continuously) wrong, when the camera pans to him during the game. As to interviews: Anyone tired of the word 'special' yet? Is it maybe a go-to expression that denotes a lack of imagination? Regardless, optimism has it's place...but complete a denial of reality?

"It isn't a Trevor problem. It's a unit problem". True but this is a dodge, as was obvious. The unit is lead by the QB. When he is breaking down, so will the unit. I love Siemian, and still think he can be a great backup - and even a solid starter, given his former stoicism and control - but not on this team, this year. The Broncos are a team with championship talent and a elite D. There are expectations...and teams that hope to kill such expectations, that are apparently beyond today's Trevor Siemian. Joseph has spent so much time denying the reality of the QB disaster he took on, it seems pretty obvious he was overly hungry for a head coach opportunity. So, he forgot that a head coach is as only good as his QB...and can be dropped as quickly.

"Osweiler did fine". Part of that is OK but you must have qualifiers, given the Broncos situation and Joseph's deteriorating reputation. "Brock did fine, considering this was his first start since last season" works. "Brock did fine enough, given there was a complete breakdown at all phases of our game and his first interception was DT's fault, while his second was under reasonably desperate circumstance...as were all of his late, desperate choices, because we were very desperate when they were made".

"If you look at the game as a whole, we had some great plays...and had more yards...and it was in reach, despite....". Yada, yada. Game after game. Therein lies the exact verbiage that differentiates a true leader among men from a man that is pretending to be such. True leaders don't deflect. They win because they stop talking about the good and mold that into the heart and soul of a team by showing them how to make the good the norm. They look and speak openly about the bad and show their team how to eliminate them as much as possible, knowing that no team or player is perfect but imperfection can lead to championship also. Think of the vet QB that knows he has faults/ weaknesses and uses that to manipulate the enemy into mistakes. Now think of that trait in a HC.

So far, Joseph seems to be little more than Elway's mouthpiece. I give him the benefit of the doubt, in that he might have thought his situation could have been improved early on, and certainly by the trade deadline (Duane Brown, lost to Seattle, smacks of an Elway failure)...but the mindless denials of reality have maybe gone past acceptable false hope, into the level of insecurity that comes from a guy that has no real answers and is too afraid to open up 'all options', including risking his replacement next year with bold action. Realistically though, it's gone beyond the 'all options' approach. The failure is deep and we need that leader among men. I still hold out hope...just like I still hold out hope that Brock is the man he was in 2015. The one that we couldn't have won the SB without. But even Brock is a victim of his circumstances, while Joseph is the master of his (our team's) destiny.

If that means pushing the envelope and challenging Elway, so be it. Maybe that's what Elway is looking for in a head coach? I can't imagine Elway is unaware of his glaring failures in some areas. Will Joseph man-up and be an guiding hand to Elway's player development and his coaches play calling? Or, will he keep saying 'special', like it is a foreshadowing of his placement on the Special Olympics third string team of (whatever sport) coaches? Because, the athletes, coaches, and heroes that participate in the SO clearly have more heart, talent, and drive than VJ has shown so far.

slim
11-10-2017, 12:16 AM
No.

Hawgdriver
11-10-2017, 12:19 AM
No.

But he needs to step up his presser game and get some ******* wins pronto.

Raised eyebrows from this fellas about Woods as an essential assistant coach and McCoy/Musgrave as 'great staff'. ******* show it, ******s.

Out.

Ground Control
11-10-2017, 12:24 AM
K, I sure hope you're right but why? My post is a lead but I want some hope. How is he the leader we need, and not a pretender?

slim
11-10-2017, 12:29 AM
He is a pretender, but not a fool.

Hawgdriver
11-10-2017, 12:29 AM
K, I sure hope you're right but why? My post is a lead but I want some hope. How is he the leader we need, and not a pretender?

I have concerns, but I actually feel some power and presence from the guy. It's hard to know how he is on the day to day in person and in small groups. The little things. It's just a gut thing.

He's not a fool.

He hasn't impressed yet, he's finding his identity and it's painful to watch at times, but after looking at the coaching game, I've come to the conclusion that beef is right. It's a long con.

Give him a bit more rope. I really don't think he'll bring Denver a division championship, but I see why Elway hired him.

I'm more concerned about ownership-level leadership and if Elway can right the ship. He's the Dude in the org right now.

Ground Control
11-10-2017, 12:33 AM
K. First year is a serious bitch on head coaches. Most fail for a long time before they succeed. I just wonder if the qualities he's showing will lead to long term success, and how is he at dealing with reality? Both from above his head and below.

Pretty much agree, otherwise.

Woods isn't essential but he's not bad. His/ Joseph's use of zone is a big change but our talent should be able to handle it. Maybe too much in the first year? Maybe, but they are still at the top in team D. I think Woods is actually the bright spot on the coach list but it's still about leadership. He's taken over a SB winning D and someone else's operations but he's adding his own take on it. We'll see if his ownership causes fraying at the edges to the point of collapse, or moves forward on his personal merits.

Hawgdriver
11-10-2017, 12:37 AM
K. First year is a serious bitch on head coaches. Most fail for a long time before they succeed. I just wonder if the qualities he's showing will lead to long term success, and how is he at dealing with reality? Both from above his head and below.

Pretty much agree, otherwise.

Woods isn't essential but he's not bad. His' Joseph's use of zone is a big change but our talent should be able to handle it. Maybe too much in the first year? Maybe, but they are still at the top in team D. I think Woods is actually the bright spot on the coach list but it's still about leadership. He's taken over a SB winning D and someone else's operations but he's adding his own take on it. We'll see if his ownership causes fraying at the edges to the point of collapse, or moves forward on his personal merits.

Yeah, the nonspeak you describe is troubling. Even in pressers I like a guy to have a more forceful presence. He comes across too effete and wishy-washy. Just put your dick on the table already, Vance.

Ground Control
11-10-2017, 12:37 AM
That's a better scenario. A pretender can pretend his way to experience, and eventually success. I know a couple of people that pretended at interviews to learn on the job, and become indispensable masters to the companies that hired them.

A fool, is nothing but. And will never be anything but.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-10-2017, 12:39 AM
I've come to the conclusion that beef is right.

Is this what things have come to?

Hawgdriver
11-10-2017, 12:39 AM
Is this what things have come to?

Yeah.

Ground Control
11-10-2017, 12:44 AM
Yep. Totally cool if he's a killer in all other aspects. The quiet spoken one is a badass and all. But as the beginning and end to what he is...not good. We still have some games before final decision. If all comes to complete failure though, I hope for nothing short of admitting to every aspect of team and management failure and his aggressive plan to correct those failures...with aggressive, up-front plans laid out. Otherwise, let the meek and clueless inherit the halls of obscurity. He's got the tools, I think. He just needs to realize he has the power to use them.

Ground Control
11-10-2017, 12:48 AM
First year fear of losing his job will lead to second year strength? Cool.

I'm certainly not an expert. I do hope he gives a clear and powerful message at the end of the year, assuming the players don't make that message themselves by winning their way to the playoffs. If so, all my points are broken, since leadership will have come forward.

Like you said: Put your dick on the table, Joseph. Even if it doesn't happen in public, it has to happen on the field.

MOtorboat
11-10-2017, 02:30 AM
I disagree with the premise of your question on the basis that he's clearly not a "fool." I saluted you for the thoughtfulness of the rest of the post.

I would like to see a little more fight out of him in press conference settings, but I'm not sure that solves much. He stuck too long with Siemian, but I don't know if that would have mattered. It's hard to blame a first-year coach for quarterback play we knew was a problem before he took the job, so I'll give him a pass there. I refuse to believe the Broncos job is a bad job, it has to be one of the best gigs in the game even if the talent at quarterback is lacking at any particular moment. It seemed clear to me in the offseason that pecking order for jobs was waiting to see what the Broncos did and then the chips fell from there.

He has made some questionable time management decisions and the fake punt was pretty infamous. I am not of the belief that he should be fired. He needs more time than eight games, or even one season, but there are glaring question marks in his leadership.

He was walking into a powderkeg he didn't cause, though. The gap between the level of play of the offense and the defense was vast long before he arrived and Elway didn't do much to fix it in the offseason other than fire the coach. He didn't upgrade at quarterback and he didn't upgrade on the line, though he tried - and there's some hope at left tackle.

I have a hard time pinning any of this on Joseph at this point, other than maybe some of the attitude, the aloofness publicly and the questionable coaching calls.

Simple Jaded
11-10-2017, 02:34 AM
MO, I saluted you for reading the rest of that thoughtful post.

Hawgdriver
11-10-2017, 02:45 AM
the questionable coaching calls.

The challenge late in the Eagles game was another example of that. For me.

MOtorboat
11-10-2017, 02:52 AM
The challenge late in the Eagles game was another example of that. For me.

I'll take your word for it. I turned the channel.

slim
11-10-2017, 03:12 AM
I'll take your word for it. I turned the channel.

Lame

MOtorboat
11-10-2017, 03:19 AM
Lame

I'm past the point of anger. I'm apathetic.

slim
11-10-2017, 03:29 AM
I'm past the point of anger. I'm apathetic.

Be a fan instead.

Hawgdriver
11-10-2017, 03:30 AM
I'm past the point of anger. I'm apathetic.

I'm headed there. This is my final really-give-a-shit weekend of this season if it's another turd construct.

MOtorboat
11-10-2017, 03:30 AM
Be a fan instead.

I prefer to keep my TV screen intact.

MOtorboat
11-10-2017, 03:31 AM
I'm headed there. This is my final really-give-a-shit weekend if it's another turd construct.

If they lay a turd and he goes back to ******* Siemian, I'm done for this season. I still love football too much, but I'll be watching RedZone.

slim
11-10-2017, 03:33 AM
If they go back to 13, I am done too.

Hawgdriver
11-10-2017, 03:44 AM
that is clearly where it is headed

it would be wrong on a crucial level

Shazam!
11-10-2017, 05:26 AM
VJ was clearly not ready for the job, and that is on Elway.

If Denver gets obliterated at home vs Brady and Co, I predict he will resign or be fired.

Dreadnought
11-10-2017, 08:46 AM
VJ was clearly not ready for the job, and that is on Elway.

If Denver gets obliterated at home vs Brady and Co, I predict he will resign or be fired.


I doubt very much it would happen yet. Generally I would oppose canning a coach after only one season, BUT if this year turns into any kind of replay of 2010 then all bets are off. There is too much talent on this team to be as bad as they are right now.

I second MO's point on the original post having been well reasoned and argued. VJ is clearly not a fool, but he may not be an NFL head coach either

Shazam!
11-10-2017, 08:50 AM
VJ was clearly not ready for the job, and that is on Elway.

If Denver gets obliterated at home vs Brady and Co, I predict he will resign or be fired.


I doubt very much it would happen yet. Generally I would oppose canning a coach after only one season, BUT if this year turns into any kind of replay of 2010 then all bets are off. There is too much talent on this team to be as bad as they are right now.

I second MO's point on the original post having been well reasoned and argued. VJ is clearly not a fool, but he may not be an NFL head coach either

I don't believe he's a fool at all. I think he wasn't ready yet. Too young and inexperienced. Need more years at Coordinator.

Just because he wasn't ready to be a HC doesnt make him an idiot. Hes forgot more about football than anyone here would ever know.

BeefStew25
11-10-2017, 09:23 AM
I’d take Semen over Brock.

LawDog
11-10-2017, 10:12 AM
People said and agreed with “once they go to Paxton the season is done.” At this point, Brock is the horrible option we knew he was. I don’t expect him to be anything better than just meh against the patriots. I’m guessing that Siemian hasn’t just been pouting in the corner at Dove Valley. I’d be fine with him starting again against the bengals. Maybe the break will be the catalyst he needed to reset and regain his early season confidence, or maybe not. But going back to him (even during the pats game after the giraffe blows chunks) isn’t a horrible option. Maybe they permanently broke Trevor though and we’ll get a look at giraffe 2.0 then.

BeefStew25
11-10-2017, 10:16 AM
Looking back, we got the absolute best out of Brock when Manning was hurt. What a gift that was.

Freyaka
11-10-2017, 10:24 AM
I've come to the conclusion that beef is right.

Words that should never, ever be uttered.

Nomad
11-10-2017, 11:04 AM
If they go back to 13, I am done too.

I'll be watching every game....no matter what!

Woohoo.....#1 BRONCO fan here. :D

slim
11-10-2017, 11:05 AM
I'll be watching every game....no matter what!

Woohoo.....#1 BRONCO fan here. :D

Yeah, me too. Although I won't like it!!!!

Nomad
11-10-2017, 11:08 AM
Yeah, me too. Although I won't like it!!!!

It kinda sucks for Joseph, because it's like he was given a finish hammer to knock down a brick wall, when he needs a sledge hammer (QB situation).

slim
11-10-2017, 11:09 AM
It kinda sucks for Joseph, because it's like he was given a finish hammer to knock down a brick wall, when he needs a sledge hammer (QB situation).

IDK. Kubes went 9-7 last year with basically the same problems. Hell, we would have made the playoffs last year if Fowler could actually catch the ball.

Nomad
11-10-2017, 11:13 AM
IDK. Kubes went 9-7 last year with basically the same problems. Hell, we would have made the playoffs last year if Fowler could actually catch the ball.

Perhaps. Supposed to be changes this week. Patriots are going to lose.

Ground Control
11-10-2017, 11:38 AM
Definitely!

slim
11-10-2017, 11:48 AM
Perhaps. Supposed to be changes this week. Patriots are going to lose.

It will be glorious. We can feed Pags and WTE shit sammiches forever.

Nomad
11-10-2017, 12:10 PM
It will be glorious. We can feed Pags and WTE shit sammiches forever.

So do you think it was Kubiak or Dennison for last year's success vs this year? Underrated was right about McCoy.

slim
11-10-2017, 12:22 PM
So do you think it was Kubiak or Dennison for last year's success vs this year? Underrated was right about McCoy.

Kubes, for sure.

UR was right about McCoy. I didn't like the hiring either, TBH. Nothing about bringing in VJ ever made sense to me.

wayninja
11-10-2017, 12:34 PM
I'm still not over the fact that we re-hired Brock, so putting him at all was sort of a gut punch, but I understood that Siemian had to go. Once Brock to the future is finally in the past, I'll still watch the team, but with the knowledge that it's academic at that point.

Also, I think there should be some Broncos press conference rule that if you lose by more than 3 scores, you are not allowed to use any 4th quarter stats in your presser.

Freyaka
11-10-2017, 01:14 PM
So do you think it was Kubiak or Dennison for last year's success vs this year? Underrated was right about McCoy.

Underrated is never right. I stand by that, however, McCoy sucks, not because Underrated was right :D

underrated29
11-10-2017, 02:19 PM
You should know by now that I am always right

slim
11-10-2017, 02:23 PM
You should know by now that I am always right

One time does not = always

LawDog
11-10-2017, 03:17 PM
Kubes, for sure.

UR was right about McCoy. I didn't like the hiring either, TBH. Nothing about bringing in VJ ever made sense to me.

Hiring McCoy seemed like they knew Vance was raw and he needed a cushion, especially on offense where he had zero coaching experience (and playing QB in college is irrelevant). They probably hoped that McCoy’s head coaching experience would also be a big help. Turns out neither has been true - Vance hasn’t shown any progress as a HC and McCoy continues to be full of suck as an OC. Mix in marginal talent at OL and QB and you get a team at 3-5. The really surprising thing to me is how bad the AFCW has been when it should be the top division in the league.

It’s puzzling.

underrated29
11-10-2017, 03:58 PM
One time does not = always


Always.
:nod:

Dreadnought
11-10-2017, 06:37 PM
I really had high hopes for McCoy. He coaxed enough yards and points out of Tebow offense to win the AFCW and send the Steelers home, and then to coordinate the PMFM offense. That implied that he was flexible enough to tailor an offense based on his available talent and its limitations. Its been a flop

Ground Control
11-18-2017, 10:41 PM
So, originally I had thought to ask whether VJ is a DB, but lead with fool instead. Thanks for the replies and I think he is not a fool. or a DB. He's just doing the best he can do in a bad situation handed to him by Elway. He may not be cut out to be a head coach as this fire may be too much for him. He's a great cheerleader though and he has the players confidence...but so did Siemian...and Brock...etc., etc. The players aren't coaches and we need better coaching. VJ is at the head and must grow up fast. Brock Olivio is not doing 'fine'. McCoy is not doing 'fine'. Be a leader among men, VJ. I know you have it in you. Regardless, I'll still be watching every game!