At What Point Do We Blame Elway and Vance Joseph For the OL?

[Cugel]

Something simple to consider:

Yesterday the Broncos faced a couple of familiar OTs starting against our #1 NFL defense:

LT Russell Okung
RT Michael Schofield

Yet, somehow those two who sucked so horribly in Denver, were NOT beaten like a gong against Von Miller and Shaqil Barrett. Rivers was sacked twice by Von and 3 times over all, but most of those were harmless. Rivers knew he had the game in hand and the only thing that could possibly lose for the Chargers would be for him to throw it into coverage and give Chris Harris and Aqib Talib chances to intercept and return one to the house.

There was no need to throw the ball into coverage so he took the safe play, and took the sack instead on a couple of plays.

Supposedly, Mike McCoy and all this incredible coaching talent that was supposed to get this offense geared up and running like an Indy Pace Car and the offense can't score a point. And the OL is just the worst it's ever been. We thought it sucked in 2015. Then they replaced a bunch of OL for 2016 and we thought "at least it can't be worse."

Then in 2017 the Broncos rebuilt the OL again and got rid of Russell Okung and Michael Schofield because BOTH of them sucked.

But, I didn't see either of those players embarrassed like Bolles or Alan Barber. Why is it that the Chargers can get productive play out of two players the Broncos discarded - and those discarded players are playing adequate, if not great football for the Chargers, while the Broncos OL goes from bad to worse every single game, and Trevor is looking like a piñata that lost a bout with George Foreman.

Something is wrong with the OL coaching. It's true that they were relying on Menelik Watson and he's hurt.

But, the dude was hurt over 1/2 his career before this season, so surely there was a plan "B" in case he got hurt again? Right?

Only apparently that idea that was obvious to every single fan escaped the notice of Elway and Joseph. They got rid of Schofield, and tried to sell everybody on the idea that Allen Barbre - a backup LG could be their swing tackle!

Well, is it even his fault that he can't do the job? It was idiotic to think he could just jump into the lineup against Joey Bosa and Melvin Ingram when he hasn't played RT in years, and only played it sparingly before.

If the OL lacks talent and isn't playing up to even their rather meagre potential, whose fault is that? That's on the coaching staff starting with VJ.

And the lack of talent is on Elway and the scouts who failed to secure at least an adequate swing T to back up, knowing that their RT has missed over 1/2 his career with repeated leg injuries and predictably has another one going this season.

It's like they gambled on things that were unlikely to happen and had no backup plan when those things didn't happen.

[GEM]

Well, Vance inherited this line so I'd say it's more on Elway, but that's just me.

[Slick]

https://www.milehighreport.com/2017/10/21/16508234/tale-of-the-tape-offensive-offense-edition

Read this article from the Giants game and keep blaming the offensive line and coaches.

[turftoad]

Meh. If we could have swapped QB's with the Chargers yesterday we would have won that game. Just sayin.

[The Glue Factory]

Well, Vance inherited this line so I'd say it's more on Elway, but that's just me.

Well... Considering ALL coaches have no final authority on personnel decisions since Elway came on board; I'd say this entire team is Elway's responsibility. The situation seems worse than ti was at the end of Shanahan's tenure but I don't think it's quite as bad as the brief McDumbNuts experiment.

[The Glue Factory]

Meh. If we could have swapped QB's with the Chargers yesterday we would have won that game. Just sayin.

Didn't watch the game. Looking at the box scores I was surprised to see such a lopsided score! I'd have though it would be 20-21 or 17-14. Just goes to show that the little things can add up on you.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Starting out this year, the OL was playing good, run game was good, passes were being completed as protection was there. Can't see how VJ or John can be blamed for the injuries now on the OL.

http://www.foxsports.com/san-diego/story/broncos-heading-to-la-with-thin-offensive-line-102017

[MasterShake]

https://www.milehighreport.com/2017/10/21/16508234/tale-of-the-tape-offensive-offense-edition

Read this article from the Giants game and keep blaming the offensive line and coaches.

Wow that was a great write up. Even as an armchair QB you can see Siemian stare down receivers which is the only way to explain the fact that they are brought down instantly or mugged for the ball. You never see him throw a guy open or throw to a spot like the really good QBs do. Even the long ball never leads a receiver who seems to have a step on the corner. Drives me crazy. It was apparent with the Chargers yesterday when they just lined up everyone at the sticks on 3rd and long and rushed 3 or 4. They have no respect for our QB.

[Slick]

Wow that was a great write up. Even as an armchair QB you can see Siemian stare down receivers which is the only way to explain the fact that they are brought down instantly or mugged for the ball. You never see him throw a guy open or throw to a spot like the really good QBs do. Even the long ball never leads a receiver who seems to have a step on the corner. Drives me crazy. It was apparent with the Chargers yesterday when they just lined up everyone at the sticks on 3rd and long and rushed 3 or 4. They have no respect for our QB.

There are other problems no doubt but his play is by far the biggest.

[chazoe60]

Is Chad Kelly practicing yet?


Wouldn't it be nice if we still had Sloter?

[Hawgdriver]

https://www.milehighreport.com/2017/10/21/16508234/tale-of-the-tape-offensive-offense-edition

Read this article from the Giants game and keep blaming the offensive line and coaches.

Good article.

The thought of rooting for a giraffe troubles me. I know it shouldn't but there it is.

[jhns]

Why would this be on Joseph?

First off, the line is improving. Injuries don't change this fact. It's just unlucky that injuries are happening to the worst part of the line. The other four are playing alright. RT is still a real problem. QB is also a real problem. No one can block forever.

But, while it is Elways fault, a lot of the problems are the changes to the coaching staff (which is also Elway). We have completely changed oline philosophies multiple times in the past 5 years. Each one has required a different type of lineman. Each change in staff has meant a change in linemen. That doesn't bode well for good oline play.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I’m a little baffled Trevor doesn’t seem to climb the pocket and fire considering the amount of time he spent watching Manning

[Freyaka]

Meh. If we could have swapped QB's with the Chargers yesterday we would have won that game. Just sayin.

I 100 percent agree with you. Most of the starting QB's in the league could have won that game even with our line IMO. How hard is it to score 14 fricken points? (I know it ended up 21, but it wouldn't have been without TS giftwrapping INT's to them)

[Magnificent Seven]

On the bright side...

LB Shane Ray is back. Again, I am going to depend on defense this season.

Unfortunately, I do not know what to say about offense. However, I hate to say... Coach VJ found himself in hot water with his offense. I think coaching system is starting to crumble down little. I hope they will find a rhyme again.

[Freyaka]

https://www.milehighreport.com/2017/10/21/16508234/tale-of-the-tape-offensive-offense-edition

Read this article from the Giants game and keep blaming the offensive line and coaches.

Anyone who still thinks TS is the answer after reading that, needs to go read that a second, third and fourth time because they clearly aren't comprehending the gravity of what they are reading. That's pretty damning right there...

[Krugan]

Anyone who still thinks TS is the answer after reading that, needs to go read that a second, third and fourth time because they clearly aren't comprehending the gravity of what they are reading. That's pretty damning right there...

Im not going to disagree, but simply state, it WONT improve with OS. He cant read shit either.

[Slick]

Im not going to disagree, but simply state, it WONT improve with OS. He cant read shit either.

Agreed, and why I'm not one of the guys screaming "bench the QB!" Oz is also terrible.

The Siemian apologists just need to come to their senses if there's any of them left. The guy we saw in the first 3 games of the year is gone which is really frustrating because he was looking like he had improved a bit and the team might at least make a playoff push this season.

[Rick]

Is Chad Kelly practicing yet?


Wouldn't it be nice if we still had Sloter?

At this point, we have no idea if Kelly has any better of a better brain than Lynch does.

Lynch has fantastic intangibles, but so far is very slow with his reads. What about Kelly (who hasn't taken a single snap) has people assuming he would be any better?

[tomjonesrocks]

Wow that was a great write up. Even as an armchair QB you can see Siemian stare down receivers which is the only way to explain the fact that they are brought down instantly or mugged for the ball. You never see him throw a guy open or throw to a spot like the really good QBs do. Even the long ball never leads a receiver who seems to have a step on the corner. Drives me crazy. It was apparent with the Chargers yesterday when they just lined up everyone at the sticks on 3rd and long and rushed 3 or 4. They have no respect for our QB.

Nothing looks routine for Siemian right now either. Every play looks like an ad-lib and the ball is far too slow coming out (as many already mentioned). Are there no timing routes in the playbook?

[GEM]

Is Chad Kelly practicing yet?


Wouldn't it be nice if we still had Sloter?

Why? They wouldn't use him even if he was. There is a certain stubbornness and defiance that comes with this team.

[Cugel]

Well, Vance inherited this line so I'd say it's more on Elway, but that's just me.

My theory GEM is that VJ got his input. He had to be OK with trading Schofield, benching Donald Stephenson and going with Andre Barbre as his "swing tackle" when he's not really a tackle. He was fine with getting rid of Russell Okung.

Well I got endless crap from these boards for saying that the Broncos should have re-signed Russell Okung. All the posters crucified me for thinking "this doesn't look good. The Broncos are going into the season with a raw ROOKIE who has never played a down in the NFL as your starting LT in a division where the other teams have Joey Bosa, Melvin Ingram, Tamba Hali, Justin Houston and maybe the best young DL in football in Kalil Mack. Oh, and your Right tackle is Menelik Watson who has spent over 1/2 of his NFL career on IR. Maybe they should sign a veteran FA LT, and somebody actually GOOD at RT who isn't a massive injury risk."

But, no. Both Elway and VJ insisted "nothing to see here. Everything's fine! It's fine! We have confidence in our young guys."

Well, how did that work out for you VJ? Not great? "Well, surprise! Surprise! Surprise!" :coffee:

So, I'd say there's plenty of blame to go around. How is it that the Broncos with all these "elite" offensive coaches with former head coaching experience, and former offensive coordinator experience taking these assistant jobs with the Broncos can't manage to create an offense that can score 1 point on the freaking LA Chargers playing in a 25,000 seat stadium that was about 2/3 full and more than 1/2 of those were Broncos fans?

Von Miller was leading cheers from the stands when the Broncos were on defense! In their stadium! And the yet Broncos weren't even in the game at all.

Where is all that great coaching? Why is it that the Chargers can get decent play from cast-off Broncos OL like Schofield and Okung who got run out of town? They sucked bad while they were here, yet somehow they are serviceable when playing for the pathetic Chargers?

It's not as if the Chargers played great yesterday. They played like a team that knew they had the game won if they just didn't do anything stupid to turn the ball over. So, they only scored 14 points on offense. Rather like when the Patriots came to town last year, Tom Brady put up 16 points on the Broncos and they won going away.

Why take risks throwing the ball, when you can shut it down, run the ball, take no risks and win 16-3 or whatever the score was? That has to be on the coaching staff when shit like that happens, when your offense is so horrible the other team doesn't have to score more than 10 points on offense to win.

How can it be anything other than really bad coaching?

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Wow that was a great write up. Even as an armchair QB you can see Siemian stare down receivers which is the only way to explain the fact that they are brought down instantly or mugged for the ball. You never see him throw a guy open or throw to a spot like the really good QBs do. Even the long ball never leads a receiver who seems to have a step on the corner. Drives me crazy. It was apparent with the Chargers yesterday when they just lined up everyone at the sticks on 3rd and long and rushed 3 or 4. They have no respect for our QB.

Yep it’s pretty obvious when you can see the field. I kept 1/2 blaming our WRs for not getting separation, but there are always 1 and sometimes 2 or more receivers wide open. This is the same problem Siemian had last year. He eyes his primary and throws at his receivers instead of throwing to them expecting them to correct mid stride to make the catch. When it works, people praise him for “back shoulder” throws when they’re just plain inaccurate.

[Cugel]

Why? They wouldn't use him even if he was. There is a certain stubbornness and defiance that comes with this team.

Come on GEM. This is delusional thinking, that somehow Kyle Sloter would do anything! He was beat like a rented mule by the #1 offense in practice and looked bad doing it. That was the word the Broncos coaches gave to reporters who privately asked about "why is Kyle Sloter not on this team?"

Good against vanilla defenses manned by future dry-wall installers or loading dock workers at Office Depot is not the same thing as good against Joey Bosa and Melvin Ingram or Justin Houston or Kalil Mack. That is why Sloter isn't on this team. Because he looked like a project at best and they already have 2 other "projects" who are NOT rookies in Paxton and Brock. Why add another unproven QB who projects as one of the longest of long shots in the NFL. They already have Chad Kelly for that role of "long, long, long shot, but with real athletic talent."

At least Chad Kelly has a cannon for an arm, whatever that might be worth (perhaps not much, remember Jay "Jeff George" Cutler).

I think we are perfectly safe predicting that whatever may be the fate of Trevor, Kyle Sloter is not destined for a great career in the NFL. There's a reason he wasn't drafted. And it was not because he's so awesome. Fans got out of control over a few meaningless pre-season games. But, there's more to the picture.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Plenty Of Blame To Go Around After Broncos Loss In L.A.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/10/23/broncos-loss-in-l-a/

Players speaking out

[Cugel]

At this point, we have no idea if Kelly has any better of a better brain than Lynch does.

Lynch has fantastic intangibles, but so far is very slow with his reads. What about Kelly (who hasn't taken a single snap) has people assuming he would be any better?

I think it's magical thinking: "we know the offense sucks with Trevor. Maybe somehow it will be better with a rookie! It can't be any worse."

Yes, actually it can. Because Trevor might stare down his receivers, but that is NOT because he's stupid. It's because he's getting seriously hurt and beat up on every play. He's taking an incredible beating and is trying to get the ball out of his hands before he gets planted again, and again. Well, put Osweiler in there and he'll take the same beating.

And we know from watching him last year that Brock didn't respond well to pressure. That's when he started throwing lots of picks, and that is why they got rid of him. Mr. Interception Machine.

Just because Trevor is no good, doesn't mean either Brock or Paxton would be better. Clearly Trevor was the best QB on the roster during the pre-season.

Still, its obvious they are going to have to make a change pretty soon. One more horrible performance in KC, and it will be time for a change just to change things up.

I just have ZERO expectation that it will lead to anything but more of the same. Maybe worse.

Because, what is the problem with this offense? Answer: The Broncos are in a division with a TON of monster pass-rushers. Every team in the division has at least 2 elite pass-rushers.

And the Broncos still have a garbage OL. So, what would change with Brock in there? Or Paxton? And as for a raw rookie like Chad Kelly? Putting him in there with this OL would be like putting in a Wildebeest and expecting him to take on a pride of Lions! "Bite Sized Morsel? Meet Simba. Now mix it up!"

[Rick]

At this point, if I wanted to look towards the future and see what I have with a kid, it would be Lynch, even if Kelly were available.

If I wanted to throw in a vet who has at-least done SOMETHING in this league and I just wanted to try and spark SOME kind of change, it would be Oz.

[chazoe60]

At this point, if I wanted to look towards the future and see what I have with a kid, it would be Lynch, even if Kelly were available.

If I wanted to throw in a vet who has at-least done SOMETHING in this league and I just wanted to try and spark SOME kind of change, it would be Oz.

Why Lynch? He is so awful. Lynch is a lost cause. He can't read defenses, has no touch or accuracy and he doesn't seem to give a shit. I'd much rather see if Kelly is worth a shit.

[Cugel]

At this point, if I wanted to look towards the future and see what I have with a kid, it would be Lynch, even if Kelly were available.

If I wanted to throw in a vet who has at-least done SOMETHING in this league and I just wanted to try and spark SOME kind of change, it would be Oz.

You're likely to get both your wishes. Trevor is clearly hiding the fact that he's injured again. Last year he tried to pretend he was physically fine when he had 4 broken bones in his left shoulder. Same thing this year. I think he's a lot more beat up and injured than they are letting on.

What happens if the Broncos get crushed in KC? Some kind of change will be inevitable at that point. So, they put in Osweiler, who is likely to suffer the same fate as Trevor - getting plastered to the field on every play, panicking and throwing the ball early and getting picked off for a pick-6. Then we get to see if Paxton has matured into a starting caliber QB. Only he clearly has not or they would have given him the starting job. Elway gave him every opportunity to win the "QB contest" and it wasn't even close.

I heard Stink on the radio today, saying that he thinks Brock wants anything but to be thrown into the game and told "go get 'em Tiger! We can't run the ball and our OL will get you broken in short order. But, just go out there and somehow take the team on your back and will our overpaid WRs to get open!"

[Shazam!]

I don't care who is back there, no QB in the League can function effectively with that OLine.

[Rick]

Why Lynch? He is so awful. Lynch is a lost cause. He can't read defenses, has no touch or accuracy and he doesn't seem to give a shit. I'd much rather see if Kelly is worth a shit.

I would rather give Kelly at-least a little preseason action before letting him in a real game for any reason.

I agree that Lynch is bad as hell right now reading defenses, I just have no proof Kelly is any better at that because he hasn't thrown a ball against an opposing NFL defender yet.

For that reason, if I was essentially doing what we did with Tebow and just saying what the hell, just throw the kid in, it would be Lynch and see if he improves.

[Slick]

I don't care who is back there, no QB in the League can function effectively with that OLine.

https://www.milehighreport.com/2017/10/21/16508234/tale-of-the-tape-offensive-offense-edition

[LawDog]

https://www.milehighreport.com/2017/10/21/16508234/tale-of-the-tape-offensive-offense-edition

Proves nothing. The reason Siemian is making these mistakes is not because he doesn't understand the game or the scheme or lacks skill. His weaknesses are being amplified by the line and lack of a running game (double down on the shitty line and then add in a depleted receiving crew due to injuries after the Buffalo game). You can't expect one leg of the stool to hold you up if the other two are loose and broken.

Look at the play-by-play of the first four drives yesterday against the Chargers. Point out where the QB being "broken" was the issue in any of that. Go ahead, I will wait...

[Slick]

Proves nothing. The reason Siemian is making these mistakes is not because he doesn't understand the game or the scheme or lacks skill. His weaknesses are being amplified by the line and lack of a running game (double down on the shitty line and then add in a depleted receiving crew due to injuries after the Buffalo game). You can't expect one leg of the stool to hold you up if the other two are loose and broken.

Look at the play-by-play of the first four drives yesterday against the Chargers. Point out where the QB being "broken" was the issue in any of that. Go ahead, I will wait...

I don't have the technology available to do what that guy does in his article. I'm sure he will by later on in the week.

[Broncoknight30]

Always mystified me about this hire of VJ. I don't think there has ever been a hire where their only coordinator experience was ONE YEAR and that year garnered a 29th ranking. BTW, that Dolphins defense as of now, is ranked 7th in the league. 29th under VJ. That was his only stint as coordinator in the NFL. That defense has talent all over it. Mystery to me. He must have really impressed in the interview.

Also, not for nothing but the Rams defense is really turning it around. They had some problems stopping the run. However, they are league leaders in sacks and turnovers. Just saying, for those who may be interested in what Wade Philips is doing. Which leads me to this. Did Elway allow Philips to walk, cause he was either getting too much glory for the SB win, or something like that?

For those thinking that VJ being the new coach really meant he was to bring in his own people. Well, the Steelers did not do that when they hired Tomlin in 2007. In fact it was a very very similar situation. Steelers won it in 2005 with number one defense. Did not make the play offs the next year, and their coach Cowher retired. They hired Tomlin, who had NO coaching experience and was actually a Tampa 2 defensive coach. Well, he was hired and the Steelers did not get rid of Lebeau. They kept their defensive staff in tact.

I think Woods is doing a great job. Not sure he is dialing up enough blitz packages and I think it may be reflecting in the lack of turn overs. They are 32nd in the NFL in forced fumbles.

Off topic, I think. I guess I am sort of disappointed with Elway.

[Northman]

Plenty Of Blame To Go Around After Broncos Loss In L.A.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/10/23/broncos-loss-in-l-a/

Players speaking out

The defense has nothing to be ashamed about or take any of the fault. They can only do so much when they are left to stay on the field for most of the game because the offense cant even get first downs. The fact that we could not run on the Chargers defense which is one of the worst in the league speak volumes where the blame falls. Oh, and ST's as well. If any defender is taking blame they are only doing so because they are trying to be a consummate teammate but its just lip service to me because they are not to blame.

[Cugel]

Anyone who still thinks TS is the answer after reading that, needs to go read that a second, third and fourth time because they clearly aren't comprehending the gravity of what they are reading. That's pretty damning right there...

Yes, we know he was staring at his WRs all the way and they read that resulting in picks. I think Mark Schlereth is right about that though. Dude has been blasted on every play. His check downs are "first check the LT and see if he's getting Ole'd. Then check my RT, then check the C, to see if I have time to throw it. Then throw to DT because if they haven't been beat yet, they will be and I need to get the ball out of my hands QUICK!"

He's in full self-preservation mode right now. But, don't worry. All the guys who want to see Brock Osweiler and Paxton Lynch will certainly get their chances this season. And no, it won't be pretty at all. Those guys aren't starting for a reason, and that reason is not that Elway had something invested in Trevor, because they have NOTHING invested in Trevor. They tried desperately to hand the job to Paxton, despite the fact that Trevor was their starter last year, they declared an "open QB competition." Trevor won hands down because Paxton the Pirate sucks. As for Osweiler, he sucked so bad they ran him out of Houston giving up a 2nd round pick to get rid of him.

But, don't take my word for it. Just wait until they put him in, which should be by the Patriots game at the latest, and see for yourself.

[Cugel]

The defense has nothing to be ashamed about or take any of the fault. They can only do so much when they are left to stay on the field for most of the game because the offense cant even get first downs. The fact that we could not run on the Chargers defense which is one of the worst in the league speak volumes where the blame falls. Oh, and ST's as well. If any defender is taking blame they are only doing so because they are trying to be a consummate teammate but its just lip service to me because they are not to blame.

It's the REASON WHY they couldn't run on the Chargers that is the biggest problem. Teams have figured out that if you just stuff the box with 8 or 9 defenders and DARE Trevor to throw the ball down-field, he can't do it or the Broncos offense in general can't do it.

And he can't do it for several reasons: 1. His OL can't pass block even a little bit so he doesn't have time to throw. They are beyond horrible at pass-protection. 2. His WRs are not getting open in single coverage. Trevor is trying to force the ball into DT, and getting nowhere. 3. Trevor is shell-shocked and injured by now. He's playing worse and worse, trying desperately to make a play when there's nothing open because his team is always behind. And they are behind because the offense can't move the ball and the defense has been giving up big plays.

Today VJ said he has to "coach differently" which almost certainly means they are giving up all hope of 7 step drops. Just dump it off and take your chances. We saw them try to do that last game, with the bubble screen to DT, which the Chargers were all over and stuffed in the back-field. No point going for the play fake when you don't think the Broncos can possibly throw it 20 yards down field.

But, this OL isn't good enough at run blocking to just line up and force run it down the field and score TDs. So, teams have the offense utterly stifled. NO reason to think that will change any time soon.

[Cugel]

I would rather give Kelly at-least a little preseason action before letting him in a real game for any reason.

I agree that Lynch is bad as hell right now reading defenses, I just have no proof Kelly is any better at that because he hasn't thrown a ball against an opposing NFL defender yet.

For that reason, if I was essentially doing what we did with Tebow and just saying what the hell, just throw the kid in, it would be Lynch and see if he improves.

Chad Kelly never even participated in OTAs or training camp because of injury. He's considerably rawer than Paxton was at this time last year. Next year he will be a PURE rookie. There's absolutely no way they are throwing him into the fire this season unless Trevor is out, Paxton is out and Brock is out.

Of course they'll give him a chance next year in OTAs & Training Camp, because there's always the possibility that he turns out to be the next Dak Prescott, but that ain't the way to bet. No.

If you go with a rookie QB next year, that means they are in full Rebuilding Mode.

[Broncoknight30]

Chad Kelly never even participated in OTAs or training camp because of injury. He's considerably rawer than Paxton was at this time last year. Next year he will be a PURE rookie. There's absolutely no way they are throwing him into the fire this season unless Trevor is out, Paxton is out and Brock is out.

Of course they'll give him a chance next year in OTAs & Training Camp, because there's always the possibility that he turns out to be the next Dak Prescott, but that ain't the way to bet. No.

If you go with a rookie QB next year, that means they are in full Rebuilding Mode.

They are in full rebuilding mode anyway. This is quite possibly a 3-13 season. I am predicting 5-11. Other than the disaster of a pick with Lynch, there is the disaster of a hire in VJ.

Sorry to be so gloom and doom, but really. VJ really had no business being the HC of THIS FRANCHISE with almost ZERO EXPERIENCE as a coordinator. Unless, we count that ONE SEASON with Miami where the defense was ranked 29th.

Does that make any sense to you?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

If I am understanding this right, look at the rushing in the first 4 games and then the rushing yards in the last 2 games. There is a major difference. When we were running the ball in the first 4 games, we ended up with a 3-1 record.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2017.htm

[Broncoknight30]

If I am understanding this right, look at the rushing in the first 4 games and then the rushing yards in the last 2 games. There is a major difference. When we were running the ball in the first 4 games, we ended up with a 3-1 record.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2017.htm

It is turning out that the cowboys game was an anomaly. The last 4 games is more about what this offense actually is. 4 games in a row the offense in severe decline. I was holding out a bit of hope that the Bills and Giants defenses were just stout and good. The chargers defense against the run has been awful.

They cannot even score over 10 points. It's a disaster right now with no answers other than wishful thinking.

The tough part of the schedule is here.

[BeefStew25]

I can’t believe we are 0-6.

[wayninja]

I can’t believe we are 0-6.

Nor should you believe it?

[BroncoWave]

Fire VJ and bring back McDaniels!

[wayninja]

Hell ya! That'll somehow result in us signing Aaron Rodgers after GB dumps him for Hundley!

[chazoe60]

Fire VJ and bring back McDaniels!

That's the dumbest thing you've said in a long time, and you say a lot of dumb shit.

[Cugel]

Always mystified me about this hire of VJ. I don't think there has ever been a hire where their only coordinator experience was ONE YEAR and that year garnered a 29th ranking. BTW, that Dolphins defense as of now, is ranked 7th in the league. 29th under VJ. That was his only stint as coordinator in the NFL. That defense has talent all over it. Mystery to me. He must have really impressed in the interview.

Also, not for nothing but the Rams defense is really turning it around. They had some problems stopping the run. However, they are league leaders in sacks and turnovers. Just saying, for those who may be interested in what Wade Philips is doing. Which leads me to this. Did Elway allow Philips to walk, cause he was either getting too much glory for the SB win, or something like that?

For those thinking that VJ being the new coach really meant he was to bring in his own people. Well, the Steelers did not do that when they hired Tomlin in 2007. In fact it was a very very similar situation. Steelers won it in 2005 with number one defense. Did not make the play offs the next year, and their coach Cowher retired. They hired Tomlin, who had NO coaching experience and was actually a Tampa 2 defensive coach. Well, he was hired and the Steelers did not get rid of Lebeau. They kept their defensive staff in tact.

I think Woods is doing a great job. Not sure he is dialing up enough blitz packages and I think it may be reflecting in the lack of turn overs. They are 32nd in the NFL in forced fumbles.

Off topic, I think. I guess I am sort of disappointed with Elway.

They let Wade go because he wanted to be the highest paid DC and Elway and the Broncos didn't. They felt they wanted to promote Joe Woods because he was too good a candidate. He would get a coordinators' job somewhere else. He's younger and cheaper.

Well, clearly something is off with this defense. They are getting good stops in terms of yards but no turnovers, and they are allowing big plays and big drives.

[Jsteve01]

Always mystified me about this hire of VJ. I don't think there has ever been a hire where their only coordinator experience was ONE YEAR and that year garnered a 29th ranking. BTW, that Dolphins defense as of now, is ranked 7th in the league. 29th under VJ. That was his only stint as coordinator in the NFL. That defense has talent all over it. Mystery to me. He must have really impressed in the interview.

Also, not for nothing but the Rams defense is really turning it around. They had some problems stopping the run. However, they are league leaders in sacks and turnovers. Just saying, for those who may be interested in what Wade Philips is doing. Which leads me to this. Did Elway allow Philips to walk, cause he was either getting too much glory for the SB win, or something like that?

For those thinking that VJ being the new coach really meant he was to bring in his own people. Well, the Steelers did not do that when they hired Tomlin in 2007. In fact it was a very very similar situation. Steelers won it in 2005 with number one defense. Did not make the play offs the next year, and their coach Cowher retired. They hired Tomlin, who had NO coaching experience and was actually a Tampa 2 defensive coach. Well, he was hired and the Steelers did not get rid of Lebeau. They kept their defensive staff in tact.

I think Woods is doing a great job. Not sure he is dialing up enough blitz packages and I think it may be reflecting in the lack of turn overs. They are 32nd in the NFL in forced fumbles.

Off topic, I think. I guess I am sort of disappointed with Elway.

They let Wade go because he wanted to be the highest paid DC and Elway and the Broncos didn't. They felt they wanted to promote Joe Woods because he was too good a candidate. He would get a coordinators' job somewhere else. He's younger and cheaper.

Well, clearly something is off with this defense. They are getting good stops in terms of yards but no turnovers, and they are allowing big plays and big drives. overall I think they look better than last year. But just as in any situation the three-and-outs are wearing them out. My big concern is that we're going to see more injuries as these guys have more wear and tear on their bodies. This offense has to get something going. Teams are getting short field because special teams coverage has been marginal at best and then you end up coming right back on the field and another two or three minutes when the offense stalls.

[NightTerror218]

Anyone who still thinks TS is the answer after reading that, needs to go read that a second, third and fourth time because they clearly aren't comprehending the gravity of what they are reading. That's pretty damning right there...

This is exactly what I was saying about TS last year and in offseason. I am glad someone was able to do a write up like that about. 2 season in a row and we are the worst red zone offense.

[LawDog]

I don't have the technology available to do what that guy does in his article. I'm sure he will by later on in the week.

Here, I will help you a little:

1-10-DEN 9 (14:52) C.Anderson up the middle to DEN 12 for 3 yards (K.Emanuel, K.Toomer).
2-7-DEN 12 (14:21) (Shotgun) C.Anderson left tackle to DEN 15 for 3 yards (J.Addae).
3-4-DEN 15 (13:42) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass deep left to A.Derby to DEN 38 for 23 yards (A.Phillips). FUMBLES (A.Phillips), RECOVERED by LAC-J.Brown at DEN 45. J.Brown to DEN 45 for no gain (J.Taylor).

1-10-DEN 1 (10:51) A.Janovich left end to DEN 4 for 3 yards (H.Pullard).
2-7-DEN 4 (10:14) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass incomplete short left to D. Thomas (J.Addae).
3-7-DEN 4 (10:09) (Shotgun) T.Siemian scrambles left end to DEN 12 for 8 yards (C.McCain).
1-10-DEN 12 (9:27) C.Anderson left end pushed ob at DEN 14 for 2 yards (Tr.Williams).
2-8-DEN 14 (8:53) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass short left to J.Charles to DEN 21 for 7 yards (H.Pullard).
3-1-DEN 21 (8:14) (Shotgun) J.Charles left end to DEN 19 for -2 yards (J.Addae).
4-3-DEN 19 (7:44) R.Dixon punts 46 yards to LAC 35, Center-C.Kreiter. T.Benjamin for 65 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

1-10-DEN 16 (7:21) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass short left to B.Fowler ran ob at DEN 20 for 4 yards.
2-6-DEN 20 (6:46) (Shotgun) C.Anderson left tackle to DEN 23 for 3 yards (A.Phillips).
3-3-DEN 23 (6:07) (Shotgun) PENALTY on DEN-A.Derby, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at DEN 23 - No Play.
3-8-DEN 18 (5:46) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass incomplete short right to H.Sharp.
4-8-DEN 18 (5:41) R.Dixon punts 46 yards to LAC 36, Center-C.Kreiter.

1-10-DEN 19 (3:56) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass short middle to D. Thomas to DEN 32 for 13 yards (H.Pullard, T.Boston).
1-10-DEN 32 (3:22) J.Charles left end to DEN 33 for 1 yard (K.Emanuel, K.Toomer).
2-9-DEN 33 (2:49) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass short left to J.Charles pushed ob at DEN 36 for 3 yards (H.Pullard).
3-6-DEN 36 (2:10) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass short left to D. Thomas to DEN 32 for -4 yards (J.Attaochu).
4-10-DEN 32 (1:33) (Punt formation) PENALTY on LAC-C.McCain, Neutral Zone Infraction, 5 yards, enforced at DEN 32 - No Play.
4-5-DEN 37 (1:20) R.Dixon punts 46 yards to LAC 17, Center-C.Kreiter.

[Cugel]

Meh. If we could have swapped QB's with the Chargers yesterday we would have won that game. Just sayin.

Really? Dave Logan, Broncos KOA announcer was saying the opposite. He pointed out that with the Broncos OL if the Broncos had Philip Rivers he might have made one or two more completions, but certainly not enough to affect the outcome of the game.

Of course, if Trevor played for the Chargers and threw 2 or 3 picks a game, they would probably lose. But, he'd have the benefit of a somewhat better OL (using Broncos cast-offs Okung and Schofield). He'd also has two actually GOOD pass catching TEs in Hunter Henry who ate up the Broncos defense for 75 yards, and Antonio Gates.

They let backup RB Austin Eckeler (who?) rush for 5.4 yds per carry against them.

Conclusion: The Chargers OL isn't horrible, so Trevor on that team would be better than Rivers on this one. The Broncos would be better than they are of course, but still it's hard to see them winning many games with this putrid OL.

[Cugel]

overall I think they look better than last year. But just as in any situation the three-and-outs are wearing them out. My big concern is that we're going to see more injuries as these guys have more wear and tear on their bodies. This offense has to get something going. Teams are getting short field because special teams coverage has been marginal at best and then you end up coming right back on the field and another two or three minutes when the offense stalls.

Hard to disagree with this, but it's the Offense not the defense that is hurt the most. They are getting Shane Ray back, and they have not lost any major players on defense. Meanwhile on offense they lose the meagre services of Menelik Watson for a few weeks and go from bad to beyond horrible on the right side of the OL.

This offense is terrible, and VJs only response to questions about how it can get better is: "we have to get some of our guys back." They have a shallow and not talented offense, so if they lose a player to injury the backups are truly awful and it shows.

[LawDog]

Hard to disagree with this, but it's the Offense not the defense that is hurt the most. They are getting Shane Ray back, and they have not lost any major players on defense. Meanwhile on offense they lose the meagre services of Menelik Watson for a few weeks and go from bad to beyond horrible on the right side of the OL.

This offense is terrible, and VJs only response to questions about how it can get better is: "we have to get some of our guys back." They have a shallow and not talented offense, so if they lose a player to injury the backups are truly awful and it shows.

“It’s puzzling.”

[turftoad]

Really? Dave Logan, Broncos KOA announcer was saying the opposite. He pointed out that with the Broncos OL if the Broncos had Philip Rivers he might have made one or two more completions, but certainly not enough to affect the outcome of the game.

Of course, if Trevor played for the Chargers and threw 2 or 3 picks a game, they would probably lose. But, he'd have the benefit of a somewhat better OL (using Broncos cast-offs Okung and Schofield). He'd also has two actually GOOD pass catching TEs in Hunter Henry who ate up the Broncos defense for 75 yards, and Antonio Gates.

They let backup RB Austin Eckeler (who?) rush for 5.4 yds per carry against them.

Conclusion: The Chargers OL isn't horrible, so Trevor on that team would be better than Rivers on this one. The Broncos would be better than they are of course, but still it's hard to see them winning many games with this putrid OL.

Sounds like Rivers has a way of making a pourus offensive line look serviceable. TS doesn't.
Dave Logan < turftoad. :D

[wayninja]

Sounds like Rivers has a way of making a pourus offensive line look serviceable. TS doesn't.
Dave Logan < turftoad. :D

Agreed. The "conclusion" that TS would be awesome with the Chargers and Rivers would suck balls as a bronco is wishful thinking taken to an extreme.

[Slick]

Here, I will help you a little:

1-10-DEN 9 (14:52) C.Anderson up the middle to DEN 12 for 3 yards (K.Emanuel, K.Toomer).
2-7-DEN 12 (14:21) (Shotgun) C.Anderson left tackle to DEN 15 for 3 yards (J.Addae).
3-4-DEN 15 (13:42) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass deep left to A.Derby to DEN 38 for 23 yards (A.Phillips). FUMBLES (A.Phillips), RECOVERED by LAC-J.Brown at DEN 45. J.Brown to DEN 45 for no gain (J.Taylor).

1-10-DEN 1 (10:51) A.Janovich left end to DEN 4 for 3 yards (H.Pullard).
2-7-DEN 4 (10:14) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass incomplete short left to D. Thomas (J.Addae).
3-7-DEN 4 (10:09) (Shotgun) T.Siemian scrambles left end to DEN 12 for 8 yards (C.McCain).
1-10-DEN 12 (9:27) C.Anderson left end pushed ob at DEN 14 for 2 yards (Tr.Williams).
2-8-DEN 14 (8:53) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass short left to J.Charles to DEN 21 for 7 yards (H.Pullard).
3-1-DEN 21 (8:14) (Shotgun) J.Charles left end to DEN 19 for -2 yards (J.Addae).
4-3-DEN 19 (7:44) R.Dixon punts 46 yards to LAC 35, Center-C.Kreiter. T.Benjamin for 65 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

1-10-DEN 16 (7:21) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass short left to B.Fowler ran ob at DEN 20 for 4 yards.
2-6-DEN 20 (6:46) (Shotgun) C.Anderson left tackle to DEN 23 for 3 yards (A.Phillips).
3-3-DEN 23 (6:07) (Shotgun) PENALTY on DEN-A.Derby, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at DEN 23 - No Play.
3-8-DEN 18 (5:46) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass incomplete short right to H.Sharp.
4-8-DEN 18 (5:41) R.Dixon punts 46 yards to LAC 36, Center-C.Kreiter.

1-10-DEN 19 (3:56) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass short middle to D. Thomas to DEN 32 for 13 yards (H.Pullard, T.Boston).
1-10-DEN 32 (3:22) J.Charles left end to DEN 33 for 1 yard (K.Emanuel, K.Toomer).
2-9-DEN 33 (2:49) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass short left to J.Charles pushed ob at DEN 36 for 3 yards (H.Pullard).
3-6-DEN 36 (2:10) (Shotgun) T.Siemian pass short left to D. Thomas to DEN 32 for -4 yards (J.Attaochu).
4-10-DEN 32 (1:33) (Punt formation) PENALTY on LAC-C.McCain, Neutral Zone Infraction, 5 yards, enforced at DEN 32 - No Play.
4-5-DEN 37 (1:20) R.Dixon punts 46 yards to LAC 17, Center-C.Kreiter.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=128398

Here is a breakdown of what you just posted.

[wayninja]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=128398

Here is a breakdown of what you just posted.

Wow, that's a great analysis!

[Slick]

Wow, that's a great analysis!

That place can get crazy but there are a few quality posters over there.

[NightTerror218]

Wow, that's a great analysis!

That really was and it showed the poor mechanics resurfacing from last year with drifting too deep in pocket for edge rushers to get easier sacks. Also the only positive is he shows all the Siemian flaws to show that the OL is doing its job at times but Siemian is not.

[wayninja]

I don't think the analysis was an endorsement of how well the line is playing, just that you can't blame all of the hits/pressures on them when TS is not doing what he's supposed to be doing. The line isn't good, I don't think anyone disputes that, but they aren't as bad some people would have you believe.

[NightTerror218]

I can't blame Elway for OL. I can blame coaches but not too much. Elway has routinely signed FA who were decent starters to just see them seem to flop here. Okung is doing better this year than last. Stephenson is worse with us that chiefs.

Either he drafts a bottom of 1st round talent tackle or gets a top notch defensive prospect in draft. 1st round players we could have missed on for a possible tackle would be Roby and ray. He has used 2nd day picks on tackles who have busted. But he is not the talent evaluator his scouts are. He just helps make the board and decides which player to take at each pick. Scouts determine if sombraillo is the 5th ranked tackle or not.

I do think he got it right with bolles.

[NightTerror218]

I don't think the analysis was an endorsement of how well the line is playing, just that you can't blame all of the hits/pressures on them when TS is not doing what he's supposed to be doing. The line isn't good, I don't think anyone disputes that, but they aren't as bad some people would have you believe.

I don't think well but doing their job at times and due to an play that it is not mattering.

I wonder what people would have said if Siemian fumbled when he ran into the back,of paradise against giants. The butt fumble 2, never live it down.

[LawDog]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=128398

Here is a breakdown of what you just posted.

Average analysis at best from a guy who clearly hates Siemian. Will give you one example because I don't have the desire to go through it all.

from post #17 on the thread:

Denver's next drive
Down by 14 now and same sh*tty QB play.
1st and 10.

Siemian fake handoff to no one in particular - check. To Booker but it does literally nothing to impact the QB's position once he turns to look downfield. Why point it out?
Literally the easiest throw in the book (underneath throw to the flat) - check.
Pass protection good enough to sit in the pocket and look for other options - check.
Instead lock onto one guy from the start - check. The GIF tells another story, QB moves up in the pocket, keeps his feet moving and is looking down the seam, with no one open turns head to the right to the check down in the flat.
Ball placement/accuracy so bad that it nearly lands at the open FB's feet - check. Andy went to his knees but didn't have to on this play. Ball was caught at chest/waist and was thrown to protect the receiver. On first and 10 the five yards was fine to move the ball.

Trevor Siemian's career as a starting QB - Checkmate. Hyperbole to support his dislike of the QB. Not great analysis...


So, getting back to my original point, one incompletion to DT that was thrown high to prevent the pick six and DT never even makes an attempt at it - feet stay on the ground, that was a bad decision to throw to I give you that, but nothing else in the first four series heading into the early second quarter is on the QB.

[LawDog]

That really was and it showed the poor mechanics resurfacing from last year with drifting too deep in pocket for edge rushers to get easier sacks. Also the only positive is he shows all the Siemian flaws to show that the OL is doing its job at times but Siemian is not.

C'mon NT, all the "bad mechanics" in that "analysis" is when Trevor is moving up, not drifting back...

[wayninja]

Average analysis at best from a guy who clearly hates Siemian. Will give you one example because I don't have the desire to go through it all.

from post #17 on the thread:

Denver's next drive
Down by 14 now and same sh*tty QB play.
1st and 10.

Siemian fake handoff to no one in particular - check. To Booker but it does literally nothing to impact the QB's position once he turns to look downfield. Why point it out?
Literally the easiest throw in the book (underneath throw to the flat) - check.
Pass protection good enough to sit in the pocket and look for other options - check.
Instead lock onto one guy from the start - check. The GIF tells another story, QB moves up in the pocket, keeps his feet moving and is looking down the seam, with no one open turns head to the right to the check down in the flat.
Ball placement/accuracy so bad that it nearly lands at the open FB's feet - check. Andy went to his knees but didn't have to on this play. Ball was caught at chest/waist and was thrown to protect the receiver. On first and 10 the five yards was fine to move the ball.

Trevor Siemian's career as a starting QB - Checkmate. Hyperbole to support his dislike of the QB. Not great analysis...


So, getting back to my original point, one incompletion to DT that was thrown high to prevent the pick six and DT never even makes an attempt at it - feet stay on the ground, that was a bad decision to throw to I give you that, but nothing else in the first four series heading into the early second quarter is on the QB.

Wow.

[NightTerror218]

C'mon NT, all the "bad mechanics" in that "analysis" is when Trevor is moving up, not drifting back...

Kubiak called Siemian out last season for doing that and hurting the OL and pass protection and then in analysis was shown again. He used an example,of,drifting back when barbe is pushing ingram or bosa back 10 yards and Siemian is too deep on his drops. Does not suprise me that Siemian has same mechanic issue reoccuring this year.

[Slick]

Wow.

Yeah, I don't know what else to say. If only our QB had Barry Sanders to hand off to and the early 90's Cowboy offensive line.

[wayninja]

Yeah, I don't know what else to say. If only our QB had Barry Sanders to hand off to and the early 90's Cowboy offensive line.

I especially like the part where the TE went to his knees for no good reason, and the ball was thrown there to "protect him". Protecting receivers has definitely been TS's bailiwick.

[NightTerror218]

C'mon NT, all the "bad mechanics" in that "analysis" is when Trevor is moving up, not drifting back...

Kubiak called Siemian out last season for doing that and hurting the OL and pass protection and then in analysis was shown again. He used an example,of,drifting back when barbe is pushing ingram or bosa back 10 yards and Siemian is too deep on his drops. Does not suprise me that Siemian has same mechanic issue reoccuring this year.

As for your breakdown of post 17 I view it different than you. Janovich turns and goes down to catch the ball thrown at his knees to catch in mid section. Much better and safer way to catch then leaning over and using hands. He does not start to,go,to ground under ball is in the air. If,you watch hus feel he does the fake hand out, finish hus drop and then bounces forward, plants feet and throws with no. movement into pocket flat footed. The fake handoff did work as you see 50 and 55 come down to LOS but they broke off fast to cover the underneath so,Siemian could not,hit crossing WR. Now for his eyes why would he watch the seam when the only WR on that side of field did a crossing route and broke at the 30 yardline and would have been a first down if he sold the play action better. But with the half ass play by Siemian and booker to sell it that WR was not open for quick first down.

[LawDog]

I especially like the part where the TE went to his knees for no good reason, and the ball was thrown there to "protect him". Protecting receivers has definitely been TS's bailiwick.

Was the Fullback, not the TE and well, just watch the video...

[wayninja]

Was the Fullback, not the TE and well, just watch the video...

You got me. Analysis debunked.

I did watch the video... It was a ridiculously bad pass that traveled maybe 8 yards in the air? Low and behind him.

I'm not sure what else to say. Maybe we are just seeing totally different things looking at the same footage.

[NightTrainLayne]

From Twitter:

https://twitter.com/IanStClair/status/922935766921211904


I have no idea who Dr. Cyanide is, so huge grain of salt. But posted from Mile High Sports dude in reference to Giants breakdown cited earlier in this thread.

[wayninja]

Lol, I see you already did the salt thing on the twitter feed. Unless there is another NTL out there!

[Broncoknight30]

From Twitter:

https://twitter.com/IanStClair/status/922935766921211904


I have no idea who Dr. Cyanide is, so huge grain of salt. But posted from Mile High Sports dude in reference to Giants breakdown cited earlier in this thread.
https://stopthesethings.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/ashamed-head-in-hands-e1397366111938.jpg

The worst part is this will somehow NOT effect the Broncos coaching staff. Who, apparently did not notice ANY of these things.

[Cugel]

I don't think this is likely accurate. But, remember that any casual fan can predict what the Broncos are going to do on any given play, just sitting in their living room eating chips.

They're going to try and run the ball on first and second down, and then throw a short pass to DT on 3rd and long. That's what they always do. They are going to run mostly to the right side because that's where their better run blockers are.

Congrats! I now have a clairvoyant insight into Trevor! Oh, wait. . . .

[Simple Jaded]

Remember when it was Kubiak’s fault?

Serious question. . .

Edit, actually it was me that blamed the OL on Kubiak, but I mean overall.