Siemian not only NFL quarterback to endure 'sophomore slump' [Archive]

Denver Native (Carol)

10-19-2017, 12:59 PM

ENGLEWOOD - Drew Brees sat his rookie year, started his second. In his third season, he had two games where he threw 3 interceptions and no touchdowns. Both losses.

Matt Ryan was the landslide NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year in 2008. In his second season as the Atlanta Falcons’ quarterback, he threw for 500 fewer yards but three more interceptions.

Alex Smith has easily been the NFL’s best quarterback through the first six weeks this season, throwing 12 touchdowns against zero interceptions. That’s nowhere near how he played in his second season as a starter when he had 16 touchdowns against 16 interceptions.

You know where I’m going with this. Broncos quarterback Trevor Siemian has hit a bit of a sophomore slump in his third season, second as a starter.

He threw two bad picks in an awful loss Sunday to the New York Giants.

What should the Broncos do? The examples of Brees, Ryan and Smith – and there are many others – suggest stick with him.

rest - http://www.9news.com/sports/siemian-not-only-nfl-quarterback-to-endure-sophomore-slump/484401068

Krugan

10-19-2017, 03:41 PM

I agree with this piece.

Sadly this is going to be unpopular.

aberdien

10-19-2017, 03:44 PM

T-Sim is also a 7th round pick unlike those others mentioned.

NightTerror218

10-19-2017, 03:48 PM

There is a learning curve for a QB but 2 great games and a handful of ok games and more bad games does nit mean slump. Means its an issue...pattern.

Now he injured shoulder again.....

Northman

10-19-2017, 04:18 PM

While its possible that it is a sophomore slump Abe did point out a big difference and that being Siemian was not drafted to be a starter to begin with. The article writer might want to point at the possibility that Siemian could be like those guys but then Siemian could also be a lot like Derek Anderson or Ryan Fitzpatrick.

Rick

10-19-2017, 05:23 PM

To consider it a slump in his second season, wouldn't his first had to have been good?

He is pretty much right on par with last year and what I have figured he is, he is a guy who will have a long career in the NFL as a journeyman QB. A bridge starter that is a quality backup.

HORSEPOWER 56

10-19-2017, 07:15 PM

silkamilkamonico

10-19-2017, 07:34 PM

Since this is his "sophomore" year, let's go ahead an link him in with the following:

Carson Wentz
Dak Prescott
Jared Goff
Paxton Lynch?
Jacoby Brissett
Cody Kessler
Kevin Hogan

I would take Lynch out of the equation completely, and put Simien somewhere around Brissett. I actually like what Brissett has done with his situation and think he's a QB with future potential. Simien has looked very similar to COdy Kessler, the numbers are very comparable, and the only difference is the players each QB is surrounded by. I don't think either will be a starter in the NFL in 3-5 years.

nevcraw

10-20-2017, 12:50 PM

as of now the team is not good enough to win consistently or maybe even win at all if TS doesn't play mistake free. He's an average QB at best.

NightTerror218

10-20-2017, 01:20 PM

Cugel

10-20-2017, 08:59 PM

The QBs in the article also didn’t play on teams that had anywhere near the talent the Broncos do. Ryan was a top 5 pick for a reason. Stop giving Trevor excuses for poor play. Other QBs get criticized for screwing up. Trevor can take his medicine like everyone else.

Funny how guys like Wentz and Watson don’t need excuses. One is a second year guy, one is a rookie. All Trevor has to do is stop turning the ******* ball over and convert a 3rd down once in a while with his arm. Nobody expects him to be Tom Lady or Aaron Rodgers. Learn the playbook, learn how to read a defense, learn how to find the hot receiver on a blitz, and learn how to help Paradis with protection calls especially when our RTs are struggling. Do that and people won’t have a reason to complain about him. I don’t expect Trevor to carry this team or even this offense, but I do expect him to do more good than harm.

Basically this.

It's not as if people were expecting the world here, just decent QB play with a guy who is conservative, throws the ball away rather than force it into too tight a window, a guy who is smart, understands the playbook and makes the right reads.

Instead he keeps staring down his WRs. Janoris Jenkins said that he saw Trevor on film staring at his target, and saw it during the game so he just sat on the route and picked it off and ran into the end-zone. Game over.

The frightening thing is that this isn't the first game he's done that, and you have to imagine the coaches were going over the film with him, showing him how he was looking right at his target the whole time, allowing the defense to react to that "tell."

Yet, he keeps doing it. That is the sign of a bad QB, a guy who doesn't fix mistakes.

WEll, we'll see this Sunday whether they have gotten through to him or not. If not, then it's going to be really, really long assed season. :coffee:

Cugel

10-20-2017, 09:05 PM

Everyone bashed on lynch.....,let me put out a name,of a current young QB who fell flat on face and everyone called a bust after a bad rookie campaign....Goff. He was really bad last year but they let him ride for half a season on bench and threw him into fire.

Another young QB who had a great start to rookie season and kinda flamed out as year went on and is having an amazing season this year.....wentz

I mention these guys because they are true sophomores and had rocky starts and team stuck with them and it paid off. They were much more nfl ready then lynch but they are only QBs drafted ahead of him. If Goff was our QB last year everyone would have called him a bust and told Elway to look for a new QB or pull off blockbuster trade. My point is that lynch needs to get a fair shot to prove self and need live games to learn.

And where, pray tell is he going to do that? Not in Denver where this team is ready to win a SB NOW with this defense IF and only IF the QB doesn't suck. Well, a first year starting QB almost always sucks. Even Peyton Manning sucked his rookie year, and so did Elway, to mention two QBs with more talent in the ring finger than Paxton has in his entire body.

If they start Paxton next season it would be just admitting to the team that "we're going to struggle with a first year starter" and one who hasn't done anything in the league yet too.

No, I think Paxton is a career backup at this point, whether they admit it or not. He's never going to be the starter for the Broncos because they are not CLEVELAND! We don't have years to waste letting some rookie learn the ropes. They did that last year with Trevor and didn't make the playoffs. A good QB would have won at least 1 more game and they'd have been in.

We can't AFFORD to "see what we have in Paxton" unless the defense falls apart and becomes just mediocre. Then they can clean house, dump some high priced veterans and "rebuild" with a first year starter.

Joel

10-20-2017, 10:13 PM

as of now the team is not good enough to win consistently or maybe even win at all if TS doesn't play mistake free. He's an average QB at best.
If it's IMPOSSIBLE for the team to win unless the QB is FLAWLESS, they're at least as average as him.

Let's lay it all at his feet anyway: Because if we're only ONE guy away from a championship a single trade/draft pick can put us on top, but if we're half a dozen guys away we have too many problems for any quick fix. Never mind that we have "a revolving door of turnstiles" at RT, and our RG isn't much better (or LG, if we keep playing that game where we move Leary over because one gaping hole on BOTH sides is somehow better than two gaping holes on one side.) And I'm not saying we have NO coverage LBs save Marshall (and Von, but the longstanding and valid consensus is that would be a criminal waste) but we sure get raped by TEs and fifth string WRs a lot for a team that bills itself as "The No Fly Zone." Speaking of depth WRs, have we found one yet? I still like Fowler, but here's the thing:

We can talk about throwing it deep, how Siemian MUST be on target and ANY legit starter can get the ball out in <2 seconds—but the reality is that unless DT and Sanders run a 2.0 40 that's not enough time for Siemian to do anything but throw a deep lob and hope they can beat the jam in time to run under it before a safety does. That problem doesn't magically leave if Siemian does, and Lynch isn't mobile nor precise enough to play duck, duck, goose with LBs 3-4 full seconds and still hit receivers.

'Course, if Siemian's so bad he costs us games when he's not even on the field it won't be enough to just bench him; he'll have to be cut.

More reality: We threw 54 times at home against a winless team last week, running just 17 times for 46 yds, or a whopping 2.7 yds/att with not one but TWO Pro Bowl RBs in our backfield. Because our second year QB's not good enough. Same reason 4th year vet Orleans Darkwa (who?!) ran for 117 yds on just 4 more carries, and Manning posted a 95.9 rating throwing to a single TE and a bunch of third tier WRs not even good enough to take Bennie Fowler or Jordan Taylors job.

NightTerror218

10-20-2017, 11:50 PM

And where, pray tell is he going to do that? Not in Denver where this team is ready to win a SB NOW with this defense IF and only IF the QB doesn't suck. Well, a first year starting QB almost always sucks. Even Peyton Manning sucked his rookie year, and so did Elway, to mention two QBs with more talent in the ring finger than Paxton has in his entire body.

If they start Paxton next season it would be just admitting to the team that "we're going to struggle with a first year starter" and one who hasn't done anything in the league yet too.

No, I think Paxton is a career backup at this point, whether they admit it or not. He's never going to be the starter for the Broncos because they are not CLEVELAND! We don't have years to waste letting some rookie learn the ropes. They did that last year with Trevor and didn't make the playoffs. A good QB would have won at least 1 more game and they'd have been in.

We can't AFFORD to "see what we have in Paxton" unless the defense falls apart and becomes just mediocre. Then they can clean house, dump some high priced veterans and "rebuild" with a first year starter.

According to you it us pointless to draft a QB, Elway has always said he won't sacrifice the future. He can't get giid vets because teams dont let them walk. So we are SOL at the QB position then.

NightTerror218

10-20-2017, 11:55 PM

If it's IMPOSSIBLE for the team to win unless the QB is FLAWLESS, they're at least as average as him.

Let's lay it all at his feet anyway: Because if we're only ONE guy away from a championship a single trade/draft pick can put us on top, but if we're half a dozen guys away we have too many problems for any quick fix. Never mind that we have "a revolving door of turnstiles" at RT, and our RG isn't much better (or LG, if we keep playing that game where we move Leary over because one gaping hole on BOTH sides is somehow better than two gaping holes on one side.) And I'm not saying we have NO coverage LBs save Marshall (and Von, but the longstanding and valid consensus is that would be a criminal waste) but we sure get raped by TEs and fifth string WRs a lot for a team that bills itself as "The No Fly Zone." Speaking of depth WRs, have we found one yet? I still like Fowler, but here's the thing:

We can talk about throwing it deep, how Siemian MUST be on target and ANY legit starter can get the ball out in <2 seconds—but the reality is that unless DT and Sanders run a 2.0 40 that's not enough time for Siemian to do anything but throw a deep lob and hope they can beat the jam in time to run under it before a safety does. That problem doesn't magically leave if Siemian does, and Lynch isn't mobile nor precise enough to play duck, duck, goose with LBs 3-4 full seconds and still hit receivers.

'Course, if Siemian's so bad he costs us games when he's not even on the field it won't be enough to just bench him; he'll have to be cut.

More reality: We threw 54 times at home against a winless team last week, running just 17 times for 46 yds, or a whopping 2.7 yds/att with not one but TWO Pro Bowl RBs in our backfield. Because our second year QB's not good enough. Same reason 4th year vet Orleans Darkwa (who?!) ran for 117 yds on just 4 more carries, and Manning posted a 95.9 rating throwing to a single TE and a bunch of third tier WRs not even good enough to take Bennie Fowler or Jordan Taylors job.

Giants loaded the box and played man to man. Our RB were not going for a lot with 7 to 8 guys in the box. Several giants even came out and said their game plan was to,force Siemian to beat them with arm. That is the game play for Siemian because he can't run offence without play action and running. A good quarterback would eat man to man alive and try to get favorable matchup ups.

Blitz the QB and load box is how you beat Siemian. Because he picks where he wants to go pre snap and will stare down that target or force it.

Broncoknight30

10-21-2017, 04:28 AM

The way the league is set up with the hard cap, it is either.....

Pay top dollar for a QB that actually measures up to that contract, but even if that QB does, it will mean a rather poor defense.

Pay top dollar for a defense and have struggles with an average cheap QB.

I have pointed out the list of the top paid QBs in this league and most of them are either overrated or actually produce but the team struggles to make the play offs or dont make the play offs at all.

Saints
Ravens
Colts
Cardinals
Lions

All teams with top paid QBs and some of them even produce. All of them struggle to make the play offs or don't make them at all. No, the Pats are not on that list, since they have a QB that produces better than any QB in the history of the game and yet is the 17th highest paid QB. Yet they even struggle to keep talent on their defense.

We as fans want it all. A great QB, a great defense, a great Ol, what am I missing?

Exactly how does that happen in a hard cap league? It has to be something more than needing to be "wise." Every franchise pays top dollar to pro scouts. The point is this is the reality of the league. My dream season has always been every team finishing 8-8. Wouldn't that just be the best? Could happen. I am totally discouraged by the hard cap, and I do believe that is an actual factor as to why the league is taking hits on ratings. Along with the concussions hype and the kneeling crap.

That is the reality. What would we as fans rather have? A Brady situation? Yeah, me too. How do we do that? Introduce a top notch billionaire model to a QB that produces better than any QB in the history of the game?

BroncoWave

10-21-2017, 05:40 AM

Broncoknight30

10-21-2017, 05:49 AM

I agree that the only way we'll find out for sure is to throw Lynch into the fire, but I also don't want to throw away a season with a Super Bowl-caliber defense to figure it out.

Doing that with Siemian anyway. Pretty much.

BroncoWave

10-21-2017, 05:57 AM

Doing that with Siemian anyway. Pretty much.

He's still a better option than Lynch IMO.

Either way, we will find out a LOT over this tough stretch of upcoming games. If we come out of the next 4-5 games still around the division lead, stick with Trevor. If we fall on our face and go like 1-3, 1-4, I'd be ok with making the switch at that point.

Northman

10-21-2017, 07:35 AM

Broncoknight30

10-21-2017, 07:48 AM

The difference with Goff and Wentz is despite their first season struggles they still outplayed their competition in the offseason. Lynch had a chance to beat Siemian but failed to do so, that is the difference between him and Wentz and Goff. Even when you watched Goff and Wentz last year you could see they had far more talent than Lynch possesses.

It is not the physicality of Lynch. It is the head case. I don't necessarily blame him, cause the pro game is very complicated. It is a matter of of being able to READ defenses and executing WITH POISE. Lynch has demonstrated that he has the ARM, but that is something anyone could see.

What he has shown is a complete lack of ability to embrace the nuance and complexity of the pro game.

I think I along with the rest of us that wanted Lynch to win the competition cause we don't want to see another first round QB bust, and knowing Siemian is a glorified backup at best, was to see Mccoy come in and formulate an offense that specifically fits the skills that Lynch has. Ala, what he did during that suck for Luck attempt in 2011 with Tebow. Talk about scrapping a play book and philosophy.

I was anticipating Mccoy designing a SIMPLISTIC offense for Lynch that would really bring out those skills. In other words, a spread offense. BTW, Siemian ran that type of offense at Northwestern, so that offense would not exactly be Chinese to him either. I was really looking forward to see what the offense would look like. Then when they drafted and brought in guys with speed like Mckenzie and Henderson, I really thought they were angling towards that.

Well, that is really not what they are doing. They under center again, and the fact is Lynch is not that guy. Hopefully it changes.

Cugel

10-22-2017, 04:48 PM

DT88TheGreat

10-22-2017, 06:26 PM

This is no sophomore slump, this is a career slump, Trevor isn't good and the sooner people realize that we can move on.

DT88TheGreat

10-22-2017, 06:35 PM

I agree that the only way we'll find out for sure is to throw Lynch into the fire, but I also don't want to throw away a season with a Super Bowl-caliber defense to figure it out.

It's important that you clush this SB talk, denver aint winning no bowl with Trevor dude, get over it. It's over. It's time to ride with lynch

DT88TheGreat

10-22-2017, 06:40 PM

DT88TheGreat

10-22-2017, 06:42 PM

He's still a better option than Lynch IMO.

Either way, we will find out a LOT over this tough stretch of upcoming games. If we come out of the next 4-5 games still around the division lead, stick with Trevor. If we fall on our face and go like 1-3, 1-4, I'd be ok with making the switch at that point.

: we're better off losing with Trevor than losing with lynch:

Do you know how silly you sound?

Dzone

10-22-2017, 06:43 PM

Unfortunately Lynch scored an all time low on the wonderlick, hes too much of a dumbass for the NFL.

Northman

10-22-2017, 06:46 PM

No the problem is Trevor is good in practice because theres no hits, the coverage is vanilla and everything he.faces in real game's he wont face in practice. That's the one and only reason he looked better in practice. Similar to when it was Orton vs Tebow in practice, orton looked 40x better but in games he was garbage while Tebow led the team to wins.

Im no Trevor fan but i have to ask you, where is Tebow now since you seem to think he was great? Yea, i thought so. lol

DT88TheGreat

10-22-2017, 06:49 PM

So what's Trevor excuse for not being able to read defense's since he's so smart? Many great quarterback also had a bad wonderlic score so who gives a shit? TheI test doesn't have anything to do with football. But og course you don't know that. Half way fans..... Smh

DT88TheGreat

10-22-2017, 06:50 PM

Im no Trevor fan but i have to ask you, where is Tebow now since you seem to think he was great? Yea, i thought so. lol

He wasn't great, he was better than orton though.

Northman

10-22-2017, 06:51 PM

He wasn't great, he was better than orton though.

Not really, not if you actually paid attention to that season at all.

DT88TheGreat

10-22-2017, 06:53 PM

Northman

10-22-2017, 07:00 PM

Orton 0-6, Tebow playoffs and playoff win.

End of discussion. But the way you all defend Trevor it's no suprise you'll defend orton.

Total waste of time, it's hilarious how fans get attached to these bum quarterbacks.

Orton played like garbage, but Tebow wasnt lighting the world on fire. He didnt even win the game in KC and instead backed into the playoffs. But sure, look at that situation with a myopic view, i expect it from you now. Lmao

7DnBrnc53

10-22-2017, 07:07 PM

Orton 0-6, Tebow playoffs and playoff win.

End of discussion. But the way you all defend Trevor it's no suprise you'll defend orton.

Total waste of time, it's hilarious how fans get attached to these bum quarterbacks.

In the Denver section of Football's Future, I talked about how they should have kept Sloter, and how Siemian never really earned the job. There was a fan that was putting Sloter down and suggesting that he wouldn't do better. I couldn't believe it.

DT88TheGreat

10-22-2017, 07:20 PM

Orton played like garbage, but Tebow wasnt lighting the world on fire. He didnt even win the game in KC and instead backed into the playoffs. But sure, look at that situation with a myopic view, i expect it from you now. Lmao

The fact that we was even in position to limp into the playoffs after starting 0-6 was because of Tebow inspiring his team. You keep on cheerleading for orton and Trevor with your orange and blue pom poms. Lynch will get his shot soon whether you like it or not.

DT88TheGreat

10-22-2017, 07:23 PM

In the Denver section of Football's Future, I talked about how they should have kept Sloter, and how Siemian never really earned the job. There was a fan that was putting Sloter down and suggesting that he wouldn't do better. I couldn't believe it.

What?

I don't know what sloter would have done, but it cannot get much worse than Trevor, the dude was a bench player at northwestern behind a guy who couldn't throw and a 7th round pick for a reason. Now all of a sudden at the highest most difficult place to be a qb people think he's going to be something hes never been which is a good starting qb.

Northman

10-22-2017, 07:23 PM

The fact that we was even in position to limp into the playoffs after starting 0-6 was because of Tebow inspiring his team. You keep on cheerleading for orton and Trevor with your orange and blue pom poms. Lynch will get his shot soon whether you like it or not.

You are a moron, i dont cheer for Orton or Siemian and im quite aware that Lynch will get his shot. I mean, DUH. He was drafted in the first round you dope. But the reality is he will fail just like Tebow did ultimately and flame out of the NFL just like Tebow did. But you hang your hat on one mediocre season by Tebow as your groundwork for Lynch. In the end you will disappear just like before when he flames out. Lol

DT88TheGreat

10-22-2017, 08:24 PM

Okay mr pom poms now you are delusional as well, tebow and lynch are two totally different quarterbacks. But of course you'd make up some non sense like Tebow being my ground work for lynch.

tripp

10-22-2017, 08:47 PM

NightTerror218

10-22-2017, 10:04 PM

For a sophomore slump means you have to have a good 1st year. His play is worse this season after a decent start.

People blame the OL but siemian does not help them the last 2 games showed that.Leary and Bolles are light years better than last season plus a good C. OL has improved the running game shows that with average of 150 yards per game against a normal defense that plays pass and run. But when a team loads box and just blitz our passing game can not over come. Siemian can not seem to adjust pass protection or audible correctly to help the offense. He can read a defense, he looks at defense if do his favorite match up and locos on the them. Only credit I give him is being able to see match ups but that is it. Once Lynch is 100% it should be his shot to evaluate and get some REAL experience

Cugel

10-23-2017, 10:10 AM

Orton 0-6, Tebow playoffs and playoff win.

End of discussion. But the way you all defend Trevor it's no suprise you'll defend orton.

Total waste of time, it's hilarious how fans get attached to these bum quarterbacks.

Why do you bother trolling us with this garbage? Tebow sucked and it was freaking YEARS and YEARS ago!

Even beyond the stupid of insisting that keeping Tebow would have been a good idea in 2012, there is the MEGA-STupid that is equal to drooling in public for thinking that Tebow in 2017 is the same as Tebow in 2012. He's been out of the league for years now.

NOBODY thinks Tebow is a viable NFL QB. NOBODY but a few very, very stupid fans. He's retired and he's not coming back. After a few years retirement becomes permanent.

Cugel

10-23-2017, 10:15 AM

What?

I don't know what sloter would have done, but it cannot get much worse than Trevor, the dude was a bench player at northwestern behind a guy who couldn't throw and a 7th round pick for a reason. Now all of a sudden at the highest most difficult place to be a qb people think he's going to be something hes never been which is a good starting qb.

Sloter and Tebow? Are you da DuMB? Neither of them can play dead in a western. Sloter isn't exactly lighting it up in Minnesota is he? Just because player A sucks doesn't mean player B is better. He can easily be worse. Your failure of imagination to imagine how it could be worse doesn't mean it can't be worse with a rookie who has never started an NFL game. A lot worse.

ANd Tebow is out of the league because he SUCKED and 32 NFL GMs concluded that he SUCKED. "But he won a playoff game by a fluke!" Well, he still sucks and nobody thinks differently, except a few hopeless dead enders like you apparently.

Cugel

10-23-2017, 10:26 AM

Here's the deal, if you're Vance Joseph, your running the risk of losing the respect of this locker room if you don't address these issues. The defense has been bailing out the offense for the past 3 years now, with no end in sight.

You need to bench Siemian for Brock, even if it's for one game, to make him accountable and to show him that you can be replaced. I don't think Brock would set the world on fire, but he did go 5-2 in 2015 and he knows this offense.

The thing that scares me is there is literally no end to this poor play. Coaches seem just as clueless as the players. I don't see any real leadership on the offense. Like I said, even if it's for 1 game, put Brock in and see what happens. What do you have to lose? Not scoring any points?? Lol.

Here at least is someone who is sensible and makes a rational argument!

I think you will get your wish to see Brock this season, probably against the Eagles or maybe at home against the Patriots. Trevor looked like he just lost a fight to Mike Tyson last night at his presser. He's seriously beaten up and injured.

But, is it fair to throw him to the wolves in KC where the fans are going to be roaring from start to finish. They hate the Broncos and sense that NOW is the time to bury Denver for the year. IF the Chiefs come out and make a statement and crush the Broncos 30-3 or something, they won't have to worry about Denver all year. Makes winning the division a lot easier for them.

They are going to put absolutely maximum pressure on Trevor with 8 and 9 man fronts. And their defense has talent at all three levels which cannot be said of the Chargers. Their offense has a lot more weapons too. No way are the Broncos holding the Chiefs to 14 points on defense. They are scoring 30 points a game with the #2 offense in the NFL this year.

Remember that you can only put in Brock and have it be a lift to the team spirits ONE time. After he's put in, and sucks, then what? Better to wait and put him in against the Bengals in week 10 when the season will be over and the pressure off.

Because if you think putting in Brock Osweiler is going to save anything you are simply wrong. The season is done. Put a fork in them. This team is not making a playoff run. Pretty obviously not, huh?

Well, if they are not, then the only thing will be to see if either Osweiler or Lynch can play at all. But, you have to put them into somewhat favourable situations, not a disaster like this. OR you have to wait until it no longer matters.

In three games the Broncos will be 3-6 and the season will be over. Then will be the time to put in Paxton or Brock and see what we've got there. (Almost certainly nothing of course).

The only reason you could disagree with this is if you think the season might somehow be saved. Well, I watched that last game. That is a defeated football team that has NO answers. Absolutely none.

Broncoknight30

10-23-2017, 10:26 AM

Sloter and Tebow? Are you da DuMB? Neither of them can play dead in a western. Sloter isn't exactly lighting it up in Minnesota is he? Just because player A sucks doesn't mean player B is better. He can easily be worse. Your failure of imagination to imagine how it could be worse doesn't mean it can't be worse with a rookie who has never started an NFL game. A lot worse.

ANd Tebow is out of the league because he SUCKED and 32 NFL GMs concluded that he SUCKED. "But he won a playoff game by a fluke!" Well, he still sucks and nobody thinks differently, except a few hopeless dead enders like you apparently.

That may or may not be true about Sloter. PROBABLY true. However, he is an unknown quantity. We can make assumptions and you may be right.

However, based on what we saw in TC and preseason games, Sloter may have been the best QB on the roster. Yes, that might be me saying he was the tallest....uhhhhh midget, but again that is an assumption.

Yes, in preseason he played against 3rd teamers. He also played WITH 3rd teamers.

What makes me frustrated about that issue is Elway traded away an unknown quantity for osweiler, who has proven to be what he is.

That, is nothing special. Hence the reason we are not exactly tingling for Osweiler to take over. If Sloter came in, I think we may actually get a little excited.

Again, you are PROBABLY right about him. However, we are CERTAINLY right about Siemian and Oz. There is no probably there.

jhns

10-23-2017, 01:14 PM

Simien does remind me of an Orton. Looks pretty good in practive and terrible when guys start hitting him. His continual injuries also worry me. I haven't looked up his measurables, but he looks pretty thin/small for an NFL QB, which may be why he gets much worse the more he gets hit. His play only got worse through all of last season, and it loos to be going that way again.

The kid may have a future, but this team is built to win now.

jhns

10-23-2017, 01:16 PM

That may or may not be true about Sloter. PROBABLY true. However, he is an unknown quantity. We can make assumptions and you may be right.

However, based on what we saw in TC and preseason games, Sloter may have been the best QB on the roster. Yes, that might be me saying he was the tallest....uhhhhh midget, but again that is an assumption.

Yes, in preseason he played against 3rd teamers. He also played WITH 3rd teamers.

What makes me frustrated about that issue is Elway traded away an unknown quantity for osweiler, who has proven to be what he is.

That, is nothing special. Hence the reason we are not exactly tingling for Osweiler to take over. If Sloter came in, I think we may actually get a little excited.

Again, you are PROBABLY right about him. However, we are CERTAINLY right about Siemian and Oz. There is no probably there.

And the only way this makes sense is if you were willing to dump Simien or Lynch from the roster to keep Sloter before this season started. We didn't get rid of Sloter for Oz. Oz came back after there was a QB injury, and after Sloter was claimed away from our attempts to put him on the practice squad. We did not have room for three QBs this season with all the other injuries we had to start the season.

nevcraw

10-23-2017, 01:56 PM

tripp

10-23-2017, 02:09 PM

Coach Joseph to @OrangeBlue760: "Trevor is our guy.... We all have to do more to help the offense get better."

topscribe

10-23-2017, 02:52 PM

Coach Joseph to @OrangeBlue760: "Trevor is our guy.... We all have to do more to help the offense get better."
And he should be. VJ went on to say that it doesn't make a difference who the QB is if they
can't protect him. He also said Trevor can play very well if they are running the ball, especially
with pass rushers such as the Chargers have. "It's been proven," he added.

topscribe

10-23-2017, 02:55 PM

He’s gotta get benched. He can’t throw past the line of scrimmage either from fear, rush, or gulp design. His throws are either floating or behind. He’s wildely erratic and every throw is contested. The OL sucks but without a threat of longer passes they can stop the run and handle the underneath. I hate to say it but OZ is the best option we have.
Yet Trevor completed 71.4% of those wildly erratic throws.
So he must have gotten them somewhere around the receivers.

Broncoknight30

10-23-2017, 02:56 PM

And he should be. VJ went on to say that it doesn't make a difference who the QB is if they
can't protect him. He also said Trevor can play very well if they are running the ball, especially
with pass rushers such as the Chargers have. "It's been proven," he added.

Ok, let's ignore the over throws and the under throws and overall inconsistent play and let's also cling to the first half of the cowboys game as proof.

Teams have adjusted to what the Broncos are.doing. They are not allowing the run and they are challenging Siemian.

He has no consistent accuracy. He does not strike any concern in anyone.

topscribe

10-23-2017, 03:16 PM

Ok, let's ignore the over throws and the under throws and overall inconsistent play and let's also cling to the first half of the cowboys game as proof.

Teams have adjusted to what the Broncos are.doing. They are not allowing the run and they are challenging Siemian.

He has no consistent accuracy. He does not strike any concern in anyone.
I'm just agreeing with the coach. Are you the coach?

Broncoknight30

10-23-2017, 03:39 PM

I'm just agreeing with the coach. Are you the coach?

The point is we should not listen to press conferences. In fact I think they are almost entirely pointless. Sometimes, we get a classic soundbite, but they are generally pointless. Most of them listen to their PR people and give us the PC answers. VJ is not going to say anything controversial.

We all see what we see. Siemian was not going to be a miracle 7th round draft pick. Personally, I wish the staff would at least make it look like they are trying to something different. I know with the line it is rather difficult to do much, but I think they have some decent pieces on the line. I am mystified why they would not at least help out Barber against Bosa.

I wish they would run more spread, and no huddle. I wish they try to raise the tempo, and stop running the same stupid running plays into stacked lines that puts Siemian into 2nd and long. It is constant thing. There is no attempt to change it. This is four games in a row that the offense has not scored over 16 points, and it increasingly has gotten worse.

The team is not even in their tough part of their schedule.

Northman

10-23-2017, 04:23 PM

I'm just agreeing with the coach. Are you the coach?

No one has to be, the coach is a moron though.

Denver Native (Carol)

10-23-2017, 05:27 PM

CENTENNIAL, Colo. -- Picture him walking off the field after the Dallas Cowboys game, standing at the podium, smiling in the locker room. With six touchdowns and a 2-0 record, Trevor Siemian had arrived.

A month later, everything has changed, with increasingly disgruntled fans wanting him removed as starter in favor of Brock Osweiler.

And yet Monday, Joseph continued to stick with Siemian, insisting many share the blame -- coaches, players -- for an offense that has scored three touchdowns in four games.

AND

Make no mistake, the Broncos' offensive issues go well beyond Siemian. When they can't run, they can't win. Their tackles require improvement in pass protection -- Allen Barbre and Garett Bolles struggled mightily against the Chargers -- the red zone is a buzzkill, and receivers continue to lose one-on-one battles with alarming regularity.

"We are losing on first down," Joseph said. "We have to coach differently. We will do more walk-throughs. We have to get better. Something is not clicking with our players as far as doing things right, so we have to coach differently."

full article - http://www.thedenverchannel.com/sports/broncos/vance-joseph-sticks-with-trevor-siemian-as-starting-quarterback

Northman

10-23-2017, 05:35 PM

Nope, im not going....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXBrLMeDCyQ

HORSEPOWER 56

10-23-2017, 05:35 PM

Bitching about the running game is kinda pointless, too. CJ touched the ball 10 times for 44 yards yesterday (4.4 ypc avg) which isn’t chopped liver, but we can’t just keep running into loaded boxes because the defense doesn’t respect our passing game. Yes protection needed improvement so what do we do? Establish a short, rhythm passing game (dink and dunk) to get Siemian his confidence back. Throw on 1st down. Don’t be so damned predictable. Put a TE next to the RT every play and have him chip/crack the LDE every passing play. I’m not kidding. Every play he should be earholing the LDE. Play 6 olinemen to establish the running game. Do something. We can’t count on Siemian to be an even average QB anymore so we’re gonna have to fix the offense without counting on him to ever be clutch. He’s straight garbage. Sorry top, but the dude is shitty.

You can’t just say “establish the run and Siemian is fine” because everyone now aims to take away our running game. He has to be able to beat defenses with his arm and he can’t, even when he has protection. What QB couldn’t be successful if the running game is working??? It’s a stupid excuse. QBs must be able to win games on their own merits, not just be carried and protected by their team all the time. If it’s Siemian, I don’t know if we’ll win another game. He’s totally ****** up in the head right now, I think his shoulder is hurt again, and even 100% he’s just not very good.

turftoad

10-23-2017, 10:05 PM

^^^^^ agreed!

NightTerror218

10-23-2017, 10:15 PM

He’s gotta get benched. He can’t throw past the line of scrimmage either from fear, rush, or gulp design. His throws are either floating or behind. He’s wildely erratic and every throw is contested. The OL sucks but without a threat of longer passes they can stop the run and handle the underneath. I hate to say it but OZ is the best option we have.

I don't think a QB switch will happen for 2 weeks unless he gets so bad like 3 to 4 turnovers per game and we are blown out in the next 2 games. Then he could be benched in middle of game. But I think he will stay put until lynch is healthy.

topscribe

10-23-2017, 10:40 PM

The point is we should not listen to press conferences. In fact I think they are almost entirely pointless. Sometimes, we get a classic soundbite, but they are generally pointless. Most of them listen to their PR people and give us the PC answers. VJ is not going to say anything controversial.

We all see what we see. Siemian was not going to be a miracle 7th round draft pick. Personally, I wish the staff would at least make it look like they are trying to something different. I know with the line it is rather difficult to do much, but I think they have some decent pieces on the line. I am mystified why they would not at least help out Barber against Bosa.

I wish they would run more spread, and no huddle. I wish they try to raise the tempo, and stop running the same stupid running plays into stacked lines that puts Siemian into 2nd and long. It is constant thing. There is no attempt to change it. This is four games in a row that the offense has not scored over 16 points, and it increasingly has gotten worse.

The team is not even in their tough part of their schedule.

You're right. We shouldn't listen to VJ's press conferences. Rather, let's just read here from those who know better than an NFL coach.

No one has to be, the coach is a moron though.
In your opinion . . .

MOtorboat

10-24-2017, 12:06 AM

You're right. We shouldn't listen to VJ's press conferences. Rather, let's just read here from those who know better than an NFL coach.

In your opinion . . .

While I'm not advocating for listening to any of us yahoos on this website, it is incredibly dumb to suggest that just because a man is a coach in the NFL, he is infallible and incapable of making mistakes or misevaluating a situation or player.

We lowly fans do have 20 starting performances to evaluate and many of us are capable of realizing how poorly he has played in 17 of those games. Yes, there are good things on tape. I've seen them too. But the bad far outweighs the good at this point, especially after the offense he leads has scored one touchdown in the last 11 quarters. In fact, Siemian is as responsible for seven points given up by the offense than he is the 16 points scored in that span.

HORSEPOWER 56

10-24-2017, 06:49 AM

You're right. We shouldn't listen to VJ's press conferences. Rather, let's just read here from those who know better than an NFL coach.

C’mon top, you’re being a little intellectually dishonest here. You’re supporting VJ’s stance on Siemien because you are “all in” on Siemian. I wonder if VJ replaced Siemian with the giraffe if you’d still glowingly support VJ as if he knows best? If he benched Siemien and we still lost, you’d be all over him for making a terrible decision.

We’ve seen plenty of coaches who will support players, especially QBs, even if it’s obvious to everyone else that it’s not working. Above all, coaches hate to look wrong. If Siemian can’t run the offense, he needs to get the hook for a bit. If for no other reason than to get his mind right. For some reason this seems taboo in the NFL, but managers sit pitchers all the time in MLB when they’re not performing. Siemian isn’t Manning. He hasn’t earned the benefit of the doubt for a bad game or two. He’s developing a trend that’s costing us games. The worst part is that he makes the worst decisions (ints) when hes not being pressured. Continuing to try to make excuses for him will not diminish what most of us can see clearly.

Cugel

10-24-2017, 09:51 AM

While I'm not advocating for listening to any of us yahoos on this website, it is incredibly dumb to suggest that just because a man is a coach in the NFL, he is infallible and incapable of making mistakes or misevaluating a situation or player.

We lowly fans do have 20 starting performances to evaluate and many of us are capable of realizing how poorly he has played in 17 of those games. Yes, there are good things on tape. I've seen them too. But the bad far outweighs the good at this point, especially after the offense he leads has scored one touchdown in the last 11 quarters. In fact, Siemian is as responsible for seven points given up by the offense than he is the 16 points scored in that span.

What did you expect? Nobody sensible ever thought that Siemian was the next Tom Brady. It was hoped that the OL would be fixed so they could protect him. And when he's not under tremendous pressure and playing injured he actually plays good, as he did in the Raiders game. But those hopes were dashed because the OL was putrid, and they can't pass-protect at all.

Not even a little. So, TRevor gets beat up and injured. He's favouring his throwing shoulder. They are very probably concealing the extent of his injury there because of a terror of having to go to Osweiler or Paxton and then the wheels REALLY will come off the bus.

Well the wheels are already off anyway, so we'll be seeing Brock sometime around the Patriots game. Because two more horrible performances in which the offense fails to score more than 6 points against the Chiefs and Eagles on the road will be enough for even VJ. He'll HAVE to make a move, assuming that Trevor lasts that long before going on IR or something.

He's taking an incredible beating and it can't last the entire season. No way his body holds up. He looked like a used piñata after last Sunday.

So the entire Broncos plans for the season go out the window. THey planned on not asking too much from Trevor, protecting him from having to do too much by improving the OL and running the ball.

Only all summer we heard a drum beat of criticism from former Broncos OL pointing out that the team had NOT done enough to really strengthen the OL. They needed two veteran T's if they were going to release Okung, but they failed to get one in FA. Instead they relied on signing Watson who has been hurt again, just as in the majority of his NFL career. Signing Ronald Leary was a nice addition, but then they were forced to move him to RG, not his natural position, because they didn't have a starting RG. Etc.

It's just been a bad series of personnel moves and coaching decisions. Like, "why is Schofield not on this team and Donald Stephenson on it if Schofield is going to out play any current Broncos T as he did last Sunday?"

topscribe

10-24-2017, 01:03 PM

Not even a little. So, TRevor gets beat up and injured. He's favouring his throwing shoulder. They are very probably concealing the extent of his injury there because of a terror of having to go to Osweiler or Paxton and then the wheels REALLY will come off the bus.
Kind of reminds me of the Orton days. Clear back in Chicago in 2008, Orton was lauded as
a "hot" QB. IIRC, he even made the pages of Sports Illustrated for his play. Then he incurred
a high ankle sprain. His performance the rest of the year was mediocre at best.

So he comes to Denver. McDaniels had evaluated him as a "good quarterback" (his words).
So Orton starts off well. So what happens? High ankle sprain. Ultimately, he will have
suffered two--one for each leg. By the time he left, he will have played all of 11 games on
healthy wheels. Just couldn't seem to get away from those high ankle sprains.

Now we have Trevor with shoulder injuries. It's amazing, some of the trends. Let's hope
this one isn't serious and that the OL can some how keep him from further injury.

topscribe

10-24-2017, 01:19 PM

C’mon top, you’re being a little intellectually dishonest here. You’re supporting VJ’s stance on Siemien because you are “all in” on Siemian. I wonder if VJ replaced Siemian with the giraffe if you’d still glowingly support VJ as if he knows best? If he benched Siemien and we still lost, you’d be all over him for making a terrible decision.

We’ve seen plenty of coaches who will support players, especially QBs, even if it’s obvious to everyone else that it’s not working. Above all, coaches hate to look wrong. If Siemian can’t run the offense, he needs to get the hook for a bit. If for no other reason than to get his mind right. For some reason this seems taboo in the NFL, but managers sit pitchers all the time in MLB when they’re not performing. Siemian isn’t Manning. He hasn’t earned the benefit of the doubt for a bad game or two. He’s developing a trend that’s costing us games. The worst part is that he makes the worst decisions (ints) when hes not being pressured. Continuing to try to make excuses for him will not diminish what most of us can see clearly.
Where have you seen that I'm "all-in" on Siemian? I'm not "all-in" on any player on the team
or any of the coaches. I'm "all-in" on the Broncos. I'm not some damned kid on a bandwagon.
I saw the first game the Broncos ever played. I was in on the contest to name the new
franchise (I opted for "Rattlesnakes").

I try to look at facts. I see a YOUNG QB, trying his best behind a line full of matadores. I see
the running game shut down. So I see him saddled with trying to win the game through the
air while Barbre & Co. can't seem even to get a hand on Ingram & Co. Trevor is not the
experienced QB who can cope with that. He had one (1) year's experience at the position in
college (if that), and barely more than a year's experience in the pros, in terms of the
number of games. And even while not having his best game this last Sunday, he still
completed 71.4% of his passes. While not dismissing the bad (and I agree there was some
of that), I can still see some good.

I see Trevor taking the brunt of the denigration from an overall pathetic performance of
the entire offense. And perhaps he should in that instance -- he is, after all, the QB. But
I'm not prepared to write off his career because of what happened the last couple games.
I still remember Dallas and the first game against the Chargers. He was our darling back
then. Well, I wasn't on the bandwagon then, other than complimenting his efforts, so I
don't have a bandwagon to jump off now. I just try to see it as it is. And how I see it is
that he may be a budding good QB playing behind the worst OL in the league. That is, if
they don't ruin him in the process. I'm just afraid of another Steve Tensi type case, that
is, a promising young quarterback being pummeled into the end of his career by a bad
supporting cast.

HORSEPOWER 56

10-24-2017, 05:58 PM

Where have you seen that I'm "all-in" on Siemian? I'm not "all-in" on any player on the team
or any of the coaches. I'm "all-in" on the Broncos. I'm not some damned kid on a bandwagon.
I saw the first game the Broncos ever played. I was in on the contest to name the new
franchise (I opted for "Rattlesnakes").

I try to look at facts. I see a YOUNG QB, trying his best behind a line full of matadores. I see
the running game shut down. So I see him saddled with trying to win the game through the
air while Barbre & Co. can't seem even to get a hand on Ingram & Co. Trevor is not the
experienced QB who can cope with that. He had one (1) year's experience at the position in
college (if that), and barely more than a year's experience in the pros, in terms of the
number of games. And even while not having his best game this last Sunday, he still
completed 71.4% of his passes. While not dismissing the bad (and I agree there was some
of that), I can still see some good.

I see Trevor taking the brunt of the denigration from an overall pathetic performance of
the entire offense. And perhaps he should in that instance -- he is, after all, the QB. But
I'm not prepared to write off his career because of what happened the last couple games.
I still remember Dallas and the first game against the Chargers. He was our darling back
then. Well, I wasn't on the bandwagon then, other than complimenting his efforts, so I
don't have a bandwagon to jump off now. I just try to see it as it is. And how I see it is
that he may be a budding good QB playing behind the worst OL in the league. That is, if
they don't ruin him in the process. I'm just afraid of another Steve Tensi type case, that
is, a promising young quarterback being pummeled into the end of his career by a bad
supporting cast.

Top, you only see what you want to see. Just like you did with Orton. When posters criticize Siemien you jump to his defense as if he was your own kin, as if you yourself was attacked. There are never too many excuses and it’s never his fault. Siemian is a placeholder, not our future franchise. The sooner you come to grips with this the better. He won’t be here, except maybe in a backup role, in 2 years.

I just don’t understand how you can defend him after a shutout, the first in 25 years, as if it’s not his fault as much if not more than anyone. He’s the only guy besides Paradis that touches the ball every play. Only someone irrational would only blame the Oline for all our woes with all the evidence that’s been presented. Even the Oline doesn’t throw ints and miss open receivers continually.

topscribe

10-24-2017, 06:27 PM

Top, you only see what you want to see. Just like you did with Orton. When posters criticize Siemien you jump to his defense as if he was your own kin, as if you yourself was attacked. There are never too many excuses and it’s never his fault. Siemian is a placeholder, not our future franchise. The sooner you come to grips with this the better. He won’t be here, except maybe in a backup role, in 2 years.

I just don’t understand how you can defend him after a shutout, the first in 25 years, as if it’s not his fault as much if not more than anyone. He’s the only guy besides Paradis that touches the ball every play. Only someone irrational would only blame the Oline for all our woes with all the evidence that’s been presented. Even the Oline doesn’t throw ints and miss open receivers continually.
Please don't tell me what I want to see. Ask me. I'm too old for this.

I saw in Orton a player with high ankle sprains, and I witnessed what he could do when
healthy. Problem is, he was seldom healthy. But I was able to separate the 11 games he
was healthy, in all the time he was here.

I have seen in Siemian what he can do when the running game is at least serviceable
and they were blocking for him. I'm not saying he's the second coming of Peyton
Manning. But the garbage being spewed about him on this board is . . . well, garbage.
During the first three games when the running game was clicking and the RT was the only
issue, so they could chip, Trevor was killing it, and people were singing his praises. Then
the line turned into a sieve and the running game broke down, and his performance
suffered. And people jumped off the bandwagon.

I was never on it. I saw his redeeming factors, and I reported them. I saw his faults, and
I reported them. I'm not going to stop reporting on his redeeming factors just because
everyone has jumped off the bandwagon. And I don't need to say anything about his faults
because they are being repeated (and exaggerated) here ad nauseam. But as I have
already said, Trevor did not have a good game Sunday, overall. Nobody did on offense,
except maybe Paradis and Leary.

But then, maybe I can just see further than most. I try to look at the whole picture. I think
our coach does, too. BTW, Siemian completed 71.4% of his passes last Sunday. How did he
do that while continually missing receivers?

But please, if you want to discuss an issue, let's discuss. But please leave personal references
out of it.

Broncoknight30

10-24-2017, 06:44 PM

It's amazing that someone who sees only what he want to see accuses me of seeing only
what I want to see. Please don't tell me what I want to see. Ask me. I'm too old for this.

I saw in Orton a player with high ankle sprains, and I witnessed what he could do when
healthy. Problem is, he was seldom healthy. But I was able to separate the 11 games he
was healthy, in all the time he was here.

I have seen in Siemian what he can do when the running game is at least serviceable
and they were blocking for him. I'm not saying he's the second coming of Peyton
Manning. But the garbage being spewed about him on this board is . . . well, garbage.
During the first three games when the running game was clicking and the RT was the only
issue, so they could chip, Trevor was killing it, and people were singing his praises. Then
the line turned into a sieve and the running game broke down, and his performance
suffered. And people jumped off the bandwagon.

I was never on it. I saw his redeeming factors, and I reported them. I saw his faults, and
I reported them. I'm not going to stop reporting on his redeeming factors just because
everyone has jumped off the bandwagon. And I don't need to say anything about his faults
because they are being repeated (and exaggerated) here ad nauseam.

But then, maybe I can just see further than most. I try to look at the whole picture. I think
our coach does, too. BTW, Siemian completed 71.4% of his passes last Sunday. How did he
do that while continually missing receivers?

Orton was actually a decent talent and there was more of rhyme and reason why Mcdaniels was interested in him. Orton ran that basketball on grass offense run by Joe Tiller (rip.) In fact Orton had a Heisman type season his senior year at Purdue. The Pats offense is actually a version of that offense. The concepts are the same, and it was adapted by Urban Meyer. Belchick took his entire coaching staff down to UF to learn the concepts. Seeing the rhyme and reason in Tebow too?

The point is Orton was actually pretty good. He moved the team between the 20s quite efficiently.

The problem. Is most Broncos fans see him and link him to the poopy pants trade (cutler.) Who, has proven nothing close to a franchise QB. Not even close.

Anyway, that brings up old wounds and that is why people hate Orton so much.

topscribe

10-24-2017, 07:01 PM

Orton was actually a decent talent and there was more of rhyme and reason why Mcdaniels was interested in him. Orton ran that basketball on grass offense run by Joe Tiller (rip.) In fact Orton had a Heisman type season his senior year at Purdue. The Pats offense is actually a version of that offense. The concepts are the same, and it was adapted by Urban Meyer. Belchick took his entire coaching staff down to UF to learn the concepts. Seeing the rhyme and reason in Tebow too?

The point is Orton was actually pretty good. He moved the team between the 20s quite efficiently.

The problem. Is most Broncos fans see him and link him to the poopy pants trade (cutler.) Who, has proven nothing close to a franchise QB. Not even close.

Anyway, that brings up old wounds and that is why people hate Orton so much.
Eloquently put. I just don't know why I can't mention Orton's name without a big uprising.
He shouldn't have played through his high ankle sprains, then he wouldn't be considered
such an anathema in Broncos Country. While he was never destined for the HOF, he wasn't
as bad as he was made up to be, which is why he joined the Dallas Cowboys as the highest
paid backup in the league.

And, as I mentioned, Siemian is not to be confused with Peyton Manning. But, similarly, he
isn't as bad as they are making him out to be now. No quarterback is going to be as good
as he can be when they're not blocking or running for him. And they gloss over that he is a
very young quarterback with two years experience, total, over his college and pro careers.
Maybe he will never be a franchise quarterback. I'm okay with that. But I'm not here to
predict his future.

nevcraw

10-24-2017, 07:48 PM

Bottom line is Orton and Siemian are the same guy. Below average QB’s who can’t lead there team to victories without playing perfect. They aren’t gamers or gunslingers they are game managers at best. And that’s a compliment.

Northman

10-25-2017, 04:44 AM

Davii

10-25-2017, 06:31 AM

The running game isn't serviceable because Siemian isn't playing well enough to force teams to back off into coverage. The passing game isn't serviceable because the running game isn't serviceable. Rinse, repeat, vicious circle. Siemian missed at LEAST two easy TDs in that game Sunday, the story that was posted breaking everything down showed a lot more, but I could easily identify two plays where he missed TDs by either missing the receiver with the throw or not recognizing that he had a wide open receiver behind the defense. If he can actually hit plays like that here and there the run game will get going better. It's plainly easy to see that teams have figured out that if they take away the run they have nothing to fear from our QB or paper tiger offense.

slim

10-25-2017, 11:30 AM

Sophomore slump.

lol

Cugel

10-25-2017, 11:33 AM

Where have you seen that I'm "all-in" on Siemian? I'm not "all-in" on any player on the team
or any of the coaches. I'm "all-in" on the Broncos. I'm not some damned kid on a bandwagon.
I saw the first game the Broncos ever played. I was in on the contest to name the new
franchise (I opted for "Rattlesnakes").

I try to look at facts. I see a YOUNG QB, trying his best behind a line full of matadores. I see
the running game shut down. So I see him saddled with trying to win the game through the
air while Barbre & Co. can't seem even to get a hand on Ingram & Co. Trevor is not the
experienced QB who can cope with that. He had one (1) year's experience at the position in
college (if that), and barely more than a year's experience in the pros, in terms of the
number of games. And even while not having his best game this last Sunday, he still
completed 71.4% of his passes. While not dismissing the bad (and I agree there was some
of that), I can still see some good.

I see Trevor taking the brunt of the denigration from an overall pathetic performance of
the entire offense. And perhaps he should in that instance -- he is, after all, the QB. But
I'm not prepared to write off his career because of what happened the last couple games.
I still remember Dallas and the first game against the Chargers. He was our darling back
then. Well, I wasn't on the bandwagon then, other than complimenting his efforts, so I
don't have a bandwagon to jump off now. I just try to see it as it is. And how I see it is
that he may be a budding good QB playing behind the worst OL in the league. That is, if
they don't ruin him in the process. I'm just afraid of another Steve Tensi type case, that
is, a promising young quarterback being pummeled into the end of his career by a bad
supporting cast.

That was amazing TOP! Haven't seen you in full ye-olde time rant mode recently! Makes me feel positively young again!

"Now, my story begins in 19-dickety-two. We had to say "dickety" cause that darned Kaiser Wilhelm had stolen our word "twenty". I chased that rascal to get it back, but had to give up after dickety-six miles. . . ." -- Abe Simpson.

topscribe

10-25-2017, 02:35 PM

That was amazing TOP! Haven't seen you in full ye-olde time rant mode recently! Makes me feel positively young again!
Well, I wore my old self out with that one. So I might disappoint you in the future. :D

nevcraw

10-26-2017, 12:09 AM

This pretty much sums it up....
https://t.co/6HD72nf8yG?amp=1

BeefStew25

10-26-2017, 12:26 AM

11274

7DnBrnc53

10-26-2017, 03:52 AM

Broncoknight30

10-26-2017, 05:21 AM

Really? I didn't know that Trevor rode the bench behind some weak-arm in college (Trevor apologists never bring this up). You are right, though. It is sad that fans expect so much out of him. On FF, someone said that he would make the Pro Bowl this year. I just shook my head and said, "We'll see".
Actually, the saddest part about all of it is he is currently the best QB on the roster. Unless, that is OZ, which does not make any of us excited. Just to reiterate my disappointment with trading away Sloter. What we know about Sloter is not much. What we know about OZ is whole hell of a lot. I personally think Sloter was the best QB on the roster when he was traded. Not saying he was all of that. Yes, that could be like saying he was the tallest...."midget."

So, the part that ticks us all off is this franchise is filled with QBs that we all know suck (except for maybe Kelly, but that is not an issue this year.) All of them are horrible. We are going to now call for Lynch, but Lynch has demonstrated that he cannot beat out that QB that was a backup at Northwestern and a 7th round pick. That was under TWO coaching staffs, and Lynch was given every benefit of every doubt.

I am trying hard to avoid showing my bitter disappointment in Elway, but let me just review this and please tell me where I am wrong with this.

First of all he drafted Osweiler in the 2nd round when he was not projected to be that high and he drafted him over Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins who were both available when he drafted the first giraffe. Almost seemed he listened to his son about Osweiler who briefly played him at ASU. I don't know.

Then, he drafted a slew of Olinemen that were all horrible busts (not including Bolles yet obviously.)

He then traded up to get Lynch, who had played in a gimmicky offense at Memphis where he put up great numbers like some Big XII QB. He never took a snap under center and it is plain he does not have the mind for the NFL game. Again, do not blame him for that, cause the NFL playbook is very complex. However, this would be another major QB gaffe, considering Prescott was there to be taken and he is showing that he is far better.

Finally, Sloter is told that he has NO CHANCE to make the roster. He then displays that he was the best QB in TC. He was the leading passer in the league in preseason. Not bad. Does not prove much, except that he has some ability and an apparent upside. He trades him away for that proven 3 franchise in less than two years bust Osweiler.

I know, I am being a bit unfair to Elway here, considering his success as GM with 5 division championships, two SB trips and a SB win. However, those are the facts as far as I can see. Where am I going wrong with that?

Freyaka

10-26-2017, 02:36 PM

I'm just agreeing with the coach. Are you the coach?

Yes, because the coach has done a fine job so far...

His answer to everything is "gee golly, I don't know, we've just gotta plan and coach better"

topscribe

10-26-2017, 03:29 PM

Yes, because the coach has done a fine job so far...

His answer to everything is "gee golly, I don't know, we've just gotta plan and coach better"
The Broncos have played all of six games, and we already have people trashing the coach here.
This just doesn't seem the place to try to offer a balanced analysis . . .

Slick

10-26-2017, 03:32 PM

topscribe

10-26-2017, 03:42 PM

The coaches are fine. The players haven't made the plays. You could argue that Woods style of defense isn't causing the turnovers that Wade did and you'd have a point but our guys are just simply getting their asses kicked lately.
Well, the defense isn't, of course. But the Broncos are desperately lacking in a couple spots
on the O-line and at TE, as well as depth at WR. And, as the coach essentially expressed
(my apologies to his detractors), you can't take a young QB, who has all of a couple years'
experience between college and the pros, and put him into that situation.

But what do we have besides him? Lynch and Osweiler? Remember, Lynch was a "bust"
before the season started, and Osweiler is back with the Broncos after failing everywhere
else. I just hope this poor excuse of an O-line doesn't ruin Trevor in the process . . .

7DnBrnc53

10-26-2017, 04:56 PM

Actually, the saddest part about all of it is he is currently the best QB on the roster. Unless, that is OZ, which does not make any of us excited. Just to reiterate my disappointment with trading away Sloter. What we know about Sloter is not much. What we know about OZ is whole hell of a lot. I personally think Sloter was the best QB on the roster when he was traded. Not saying he was all of that. Yes, that could be like saying he was the tallest...."midget."

So, the part that ticks us all off is this franchise is filled with QBs that we all know suck (except for maybe Kelly, but that is not an issue this year.) All of them are horrible. We are going to now call for Lynch, but Lynch has demonstrated that he cannot beat out that QB that was a backup at Northwestern and a 7th round pick. That was under TWO coaching staffs, and Lynch was given every benefit of every doubt.

I am trying hard to avoid showing my bitter disappointment in Elway, but let me just review this and please tell me where I am wrong with this.

First of all he drafted Osweiler in the 2nd round when he was not projected to be that high and he drafted him over Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins who were both available when he drafted the first giraffe. Almost seemed he listened to his son about Osweiler who briefly played him at ASU. I don't know.

Then, he drafted a slew of Olinemen that were all horrible busts (not including Bolles yet obviously.)

He then traded up to get Lynch, who had played in a gimmicky offense at Memphis where he put up great numbers like some Big XII QB. He never took a snap under center and it is plain he does not have the mind for the NFL game. Again, do not blame him for that, cause the NFL playbook is very complex. However, this would be another major QB gaffe, considering Prescott was there to be taken and he is showing that he is far better.

Finally, Sloter is told that he has NO CHANCE to make the roster. He then displays that he was the best QB in TC. He was the leading passer in the league in preseason. Not bad. Does not prove much, except that he has some ability and an apparent upside. He trades him away for that proven 3 franchise in less than two years bust Osweiler.

I know, I am being a bit unfair to Elway here, considering his success as GM with 5 division championships, two SB trips and a SB win. However, those are the facts as far as I can see. Where am I going wrong with that?

Nowhere. You are right on.

Elway made his first mistake with the OL back in 2012, when he passed up Cordy Glenn (who the Steelers should have drafted in Round 1) for Derek Wolfe with his first round 2 pick. Wolfe is a good player, but he was considered a reach at the time. Then, Elway took OZ over LaVonte David (I remember Nate Lundy being upset with that pick because he felt that he was a one-hit wonder at ASU). Instead, he could have had Cousins (or maybe Wilson) early in Round 3, and Wolfe would have been waiting for him in Round 4 (more than likely).

That's Elway's biggest drafting problem (as I see it). He doesn't seem to look at value enough, and he takes too many reaches.

And, as far as Sloter goes, I wonder if he cut him because he didn't want him to come in if Siemian got hurt. If Kyle impressed, he knew that he would have a problem on his hands because his guy (Lynch) would have a harder time to make it. He wants his guy to succeed, not who the fans want. That is a problem that these coaches and GM's have.

BroncoJoe

10-26-2017, 05:01 PM

We all have the benefit of hindsight. During the actual draft, they don't. I hate it when people say "we could have had X player instead of Y player!"

After a few years post draft.

BroncoWave

10-26-2017, 05:04 PM

Well, the defense isn't, of course. But the Broncos are desperately lacking in a couple spots
on the O-line and at TE, as well as depth at WR. And, as the coach essentially expressed
(my apologies to his detractors), you can't take a young QB, who has all of a couple years'
experience between college and the pros, and put him into that situation.

But what do we have besides him? Lynch and Osweiler? Remember, Lynch was a "bust"
before the season started, and Osweiler is back with the Broncos after failing everywhere
else. I just hope this poor excuse of an O-line doesn't ruin Trevor in the process . . .

Oz failed in one place, where he was a horrible fit with the coach/offense. Cleveland never planned to keep him. Their plan was to go with Kizer all along. They just needed Oz to hit the salary floor and it got them a free second rounder to boot. I think he would do much better than people think if given the chance. He wasn't bad at all in relief of Manning.

BroncoWave

10-26-2017, 05:06 PM

We all have the benefit of hindsight. During the actual draft, they don't. I hate it when people say "we could have had X player instead of Y player!"

After a few years post draft.

But we could have had Daaaaaaaaaaaak!

BroncoJoe

10-26-2017, 05:07 PM

Oz failed in one place, where he was a horrible fit with the coach/offense. Cleveland never planned to keep him. Their plan was to go with Kizer all along. They just needed Oz to hit the salary floor and it got them a free second rounder to boot. I think he would do much better than people think if given the chance. He wasn't bad at all in relief of Manning.

Dude completely (possibly?) ruined his career taking the one time big payday. It's hard to blame him, but I would have taken a bit less to be with a winning organization.

BroncoJoe

10-26-2017, 05:07 PM

But we could have had Daaaaaaaaaaaak!

Yes, and I hate you.

BroncoWave

10-26-2017, 05:10 PM

Dude completely (possibly?) ruined his career taking the one time big payday. It's hard to blame him, but I would have taken a bit less to be with a winning organization.

Definitely the complete wrong decision by him, but it could be a hell of a redemption story if he played this year and did well.

BroncoWave

10-26-2017, 05:10 PM

Yes, and I hate you.

I hate you more.

BroncoJoe

10-26-2017, 05:12 PM

Definitely the complete wrong decision by him, but it could be a hell of a redemption story if he played this year and did well.

As you know, I despised him when he left. He was no better than the maggots on a dead hookers carcass that was carved up and left in a field by Dave.

But, I'd root for him if he was pressed into service.

#BroncosFirst

BroncoJoe

10-26-2017, 05:17 PM

Damn. I should trademark that.

#BroncosFirst

Has a nice ring to it.

MOtorboat

10-26-2017, 05:36 PM

BroncoWave

10-26-2017, 05:41 PM

Osweiler: 13-8
Siemian: 11-9

Good point that as bad as Oz was in Houston, that team still got to the playoffs, won a playoff game, and played the Pats tough in the divisional round. Definitely way more than TS has done.

Broncoknight30

10-26-2017, 09:43 PM

We all have the benefit of hindsight. During the actual draft, they don't. I hate it when people say "we could have had X player instead of Y player!"

After a few years post draft.

Hindsight is how drafts are judged. Also, I seem to remember reading a few message boards and opinions showing their disappointment in the osweiler pick at the time.

Again, drafts need to be judged a few years after that draft. That may seem unfair, but that is how it is. Why, how do you feel drafts ought be judged?

Cugel

10-26-2017, 10:15 PM

Actually, the saddest part about all of it is he is currently the best QB on the roster. Unless, that is OZ, which does not make any of us excited. Just to reiterate my disappointment with trading away Sloter. What we know about Sloter is not much. What we know about OZ is whole hell of a lot. I personally think Sloter was the best QB on the roster when he was traded. Not saying he was all of that. Yes, that could be like saying he was the tallest...."midget."
I was going to go with "chastest hooker in a one-whore town" but you got the right idea!

So, the part that ticks us all off is this franchise is filled with QBs that we all know suck (except for maybe Kelly, but that is not an issue this year.) All of them are horrible. We are going to now call for Lynch, but Lynch has demonstrated that he cannot beat out that QB that was a backup at Northwestern and a 7th round pick. That was under TWO coaching staffs, and Lynch was given every benefit of every doubt.

Uh, oh, he's going there:

I am trying hard to avoid showing my bitter disappointment in Elway, but let me just review this and please tell me where I am wrong with this.

I was right! He went there! Here we go!

First of all he drafted Osweiler in the 2nd round when he was not projected to be that high and he drafted him over Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins who were both available when he drafted the first giraffe. Almost seemed he listened to his son about Osweiler who briefly played him at ASU. I don't know.

I think the story was that someone was going to draft Osweiler prior to Denver's draft in the 3rd round so they took him a round early. Which would be good IF he turned out to be your franchise QB, but that didn't happen. Well, he was at best a late 2nd round pick, and late second round picks seldom pan out. Russell Wilson was a 3rd rounder, and the first such late round pick to ever win a SB I think (or at least in the last quarter century or so).

Then, he drafted a slew of Olinemen that were all horrible busts (not including Bolles yet obviously.)

That was the story - until last week, when both Russell Okung and the discarded Michael Schofield managed to play well enough - for the Chargers. Phillip Rivers had time to throw most of the day. Von got a couple of sacks, but none that mattered.

So, did Schofield just suck? Or maybe the coaches sucked? Because he doesn't suck for the Chargers! He certainly outplayed anything we've seen from Donald Stephenson (was he a healthy scratch?) or the completely useless Menelik Watson, who not only sucked even worse than Schofield (amazing I know), but is now injured again just like over 1/2 his career). They are going to press Watson back into the lineup just as fast as he can hobble around enough, but God knows how bad he'll be injured. At least he can't be any worse than Allen Barbre, who is not even a T but a guard playing out of position.

Cugel

10-26-2017, 10:24 PM

He then traded up to get Lynch, who had played in a gimmicky offense at Memphis where he put up great numbers like some Big XII QB. He never took a snap under center and it is plain he does not have the mind for the NFL game. Again, do not blame him for that, cause the NFL playbook is very complex. However, this would be another major QB gaffe, considering Prescott was there to be taken and he is showing that he is far better.

He certainly screwed up in trading up for Paxton, but fans and critics were all happy about that pick. All the experts thought Paxton had every chance to be a really good QB. Jerry Jones' personnel group (which has gotten better now that Jerry doesn't make every decision) wanted him and Jerry wanted to trade up ahead of the Broncos to get him, and stated publicly that he regretted not doing so after the draft. He didn't want Dak Prescott, he wanted Lynch. He just got lucky and Elway outsmarted himself by maneuvering Jerry - the opposite of what happened to him when he got outbid by the Texans for Osweiler.

Well, Paxton's a bust-0-rama, we might as well admit that and be done. If he was going to be any good he'd have won the job by now. There's a reason the coaches kept saying "he's not ready".

Finally, Sloter is told that he has NO CHANCE to make the roster. He then displays that he was the best QB in TC. He was the leading passer in the league in preseason. Not bad. Does not prove much, except that he has some ability and an apparent upside. He trades him away for that proven 3 franchise in less than two years bust Osweiler.

Here's where Broncosknight lost his mind completely and drifted off into madness. Sloter was cut because he sucked in practices against the first team defense. He looked as lost in closed practices as Paxton does in public ones. In short he looked in PRIVATE in front of the coaches just about like an undrafted long-shot QB who is miles and miles away from knowing how to read defenses. A PROJECT in fact, and they already had a project in Lynch. So, Sloter looked good in the preseason. So did Bradley Van Pelt once on a time. The coaching staff privately talked to Broncos insiders like Mike Klis, Dave Logan, etc. and it was reported on the radio.

Why do you think they got rid of him when he was a fan favourite, and looked so good in public pre-season games? Because they're all idiots over there and can't see what we all saw on the telecast? No, they saw all that, but they also saw a ton of other things no fan got to see because it wasn't happening in public.

He goes to Minnesota, where he's currently on the bench. Expect him to stay there for a couple of seasons and then he'll get cut, wind up on the bench somewhere else, like Miami maybe. Then goodbye and it's "whatever happened to?. . . " If Kyle Sloter ever becomes a star in the league, you can remind everybody how you wanted them to keep him. So did every fan.

I know, I am being a bit unfair to Elway here, considering his success as GM with 5 division championships, two SB trips and a SB win. However, those are the facts as far as I can see. Where am I going wrong with that?

See above.

7DnBrnc53

10-27-2017, 09:08 PM

Here's where Broncosknight lost his mind completely and drifted off into madness. Sloter was cut because he sucked in practices against the first team defense. He looked as lost in closed practices as Paxton does in public ones. In short he looked in PRIVATE in front of the coaches just about like an undrafted long-shot QB who is miles and miles away from knowing how to read defenses. A PROJECT in fact, and they already had a project in Lynch. So, Sloter looked good in the preseason. So did Bradley Van Pelt once on a time. The coaching staff privately talked to Broncos insiders like Mike Klis, Dave Logan, etc. and it was reported on the radio.

Why do you think they got rid of him when he was a fan favourite, and looked so good in public pre-season games? Because they're all idiots over there and can't see what we all saw on the telecast? No, they saw all that, but they also saw a ton of other things no fan got to see because it wasn't happening in public.

He goes to Minnesota, where he's currently on the bench. Expect him to stay there for a couple of seasons and then he'll get cut, wind up on the bench somewhere else, like Miami maybe. Then goodbye and it's "whatever happened to?. . . " If Kyle Sloter ever becomes a star in the league, you can remind everybody how you wanted them to keep him. So did every fan.

Uh, I don't think that Bradlee Van Pelt was ever loved by the fans as much as Sloter. And, if he looked bad against our first team D, so what? A lot of QB's do. They may have been setting Kyle up to fail so they could get rid of him. Elway wants Lynch to be the man, and I think that VJ wants Kelly to be the man. Sloter isn't their guy.

Simple Jaded

10-27-2017, 10:20 PM

TS is a bird dog, the only thing that gets him to take his eyes off his presnap target is the pass rush (and shadows/ghosts) he’s seeing.

Sloter was the best QB on the team.

DT88TheGreat

10-28-2017, 04:25 AM

Lol what is a bird dog

Broncoknight30

10-28-2017, 10:15 AM

He certainly screwed up in trading up for Paxton, but fans and critics were all happy about that pick. All the experts thought Paxton had every chance to be a really good QB. Jerry Jones' personnel group (which has gotten better now that Jerry doesn't make every decision) wanted him and Jerry wanted to trade up ahead of the Broncos to get him, and stated publicly that he regretted not doing so after the draft. He didn't want Dak Prescott, he wanted Lynch. He just got lucky and Elway outsmarted himself by maneuvering Jerry - the opposite of what happened to him when he got outbid by the Texans for Osweiler.

Well, Paxton's a bust-0-rama, we might as well admit that and be done. If he was going to be any good he'd have won the job by now. There's a reason the coaches kept saying "he's not ready".

Here's where Broncosknight lost his mind completely and drifted off into madness. Sloter was cut because he sucked in practices against the first team defense. He looked as lost in closed practices as Paxton does in public ones. In short he looked in PRIVATE in front of the coaches just about like an undrafted long-shot QB who is miles and miles away from knowing how to read defenses. A PROJECT in fact, and they already had a project in Lynch. So, Sloter looked good in the preseason. So did Bradley Van Pelt once on a time. The coaching staff privately talked to Broncos insiders like Mike Klis, Dave Logan, etc. and it was reported on the radio.

Why do you think they got rid of him when he was a fan favourite, and looked so good in public pre-season games? Because they're all idiots over there and can't see what we all saw on the telecast? No, they saw all that, but they also saw a ton of other things no fan got to see because it wasn't happening in public.

He goes to Minnesota, where he's currently on the bench. Expect him to stay there for a couple of seasons and then he'll get cut, wind up on the bench somewhere else, like Miami maybe. Then goodbye and it's "whatever happened to?. . . " If Kyle Sloter ever becomes a star in the league, you can remind everybody how you wanted them to keep him. So did every fan.

See above.

Lost my mind based on what we know and what we don't know. What we do know is Sloter outplayed every QB in camp. Does not mean much as I acknowledged, other than there is some potential upside there.

The fact is Sloter is an unknown quantity. We can assume all we want. That's fine and since we will probably never get to know what that upside could have been, our assumptions are justified. I guess.

The other fact is he was cut for a QB that is a proven bust. He has shown that he is below average. Meaning, he has little to no upside.

Why did elway cut Sloter for OZ? Well, I can make some some assumptions myself about that.what we do know is Elways track record as far as the offensive decisions have been less than adequate.

So, where are we? We don't know what Sloter could have been here. No one knows. All we do know is Oz is horrible, Siemian is less than adequate and Lynch has not shown any indication he is an NFL QB.

That is where we are.

slim

10-28-2017, 10:25 AM

As you know, I despised him when he left. He was no better than the maggots on a dead hookers carcass that was carved up and left in a field by Dave.

But, I'd root for him if he was pressed into service.

#BroncosFirst

#broncosbeforehoes

Cugel

10-28-2017, 12:21 PM

Uh, I don't think that Bradlee Van Pelt was ever loved by the fans as much as Sloter. And, if he looked bad against our first team D, so what? A lot of QB's do. They may have been setting Kyle up to fail so they could get rid of him. Elway wants Lynch to be the man, and I think that VJ wants Kelly to be the man. Sloter isn't their guy.

Oh, dude, take off the tinfoil hat! THat conspiracy theory is idiotic! They want to WIN games. Elway just signed a five year deal to stay as the Broncos GM. It made him about the highest paid GM in the league but the money was irrelevant to Elway. He already has over $150M! What more does he need to do anything he wants for the rest of his life? He wants to win more championships. That's all he wants.

So, IF Kyle freakin' Sloter could help Elway win a championship he would be on this roster. Because there is NOTHING that would destroy Elway's reputation more than letting some QB go and then the guy becomes a SB winning QB somewhere else. Know where that has happened before in NFL history?

Brett Favre was drafted by the Atlanta Falcons in the second round with the 33rd overall pick in the 1991 NFL Draft. On July 19, 1991, Favre agreed to a three-year, US$1.4 million contract with a reported signing bonus of $350,000. Atlanta head coach Jerry Glanville did not approve of the drafting of Favre, saying it would take a plane crash for him to put Favre into the game.

The Falcons have never lived that down - that they traded away Brett Favre who goes on to win a SB with the Packers and end up in the Hall of Fame. Nobody wants to be having "some 'splaining to do" about why they let the SB walk off your roster like Jerry Glanville.

So, the Kyle Sloter "controversy" comes down to this: Elway and Joseph and the coaching staff did not like Kyle Sloter nearly as much as the fans did. You'll just have to wait 2 years to see if they were right.

The odds are not in your favour. :coffee:

Cugel

10-28-2017, 12:28 PM

Quote Originally Posted by BroncoJoe View Post
As you know, I despised him when he left. He was no better than the maggots on a dead hookers carcass that was carved up and left in a field by Dave.

But, I'd root for him if he was pressed into service.

#BroncosFirst

I don't think I will ever understand that kind of irrational fan behaviour. Osweiler took a deal that promised to pay him 4 years for $72 M, $16 M a year with $37M guaranteed. That was a full $7 freakin' Million more than the Broncos were offering.

There is not one fan on these boards or anywhere else who would turn down $7M and say "no. I'm staying in Denver." If you would do that all I can say is you might think that NOW, but if that $7M was real, you would take the money. So would any player.

This is their profession. They have to make as much $ as possible before they are too old and injured to continue. If they don't cash in now, they never will. The team has zero loyalty to them they have to protect themselves.

So, I don't blame Osweiler for going for the money. Turns out he sucks and that $37M guarantee is most of the money he will ever earn in his career. Because he will never be a franchise QB in this league. It should be obvious by now that is not happening.

So Osweiler made the right choice in going to Houston and cashing in before everybody found out he can't really play. The first 7 games are before DCs really have time to study his tendencies and find out how to attack him and make him make mistakes. Then he fails to adjust and his play declines.

Same thing happened to Trevor Siemian. Same thing happened to RGIII in Washington. Started out rookie of the year and now is not in football.

Cugel

10-28-2017, 12:39 PM

topscribe

10-28-2017, 12:45 PM

TS is a bird dog, the only thing that gets him to take his eyes off his presnap target is the pass rush (and shadows/ghosts) he’s seeing.

Sloter was the best QB on the team.
Welcome back, friend.

Even though you are a bit deluded about Sloter . . .

Cugel

10-28-2017, 01:17 PM

Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
TS is a bird dog, the only thing that gets him to take his eyes off his presnap target is the pass rush (and shadows/ghosts) he’s seeing.

Sloter was the best QB on the team.

11300

Broncoknight30

10-28-2017, 01:29 PM

11300
At least you are somewhat admitting he had more of an upside than Oz.

You have the luxury of the fact that we will most likely never know. The percentages are CERTAINLY on your side with your assumptions about Sloter.

While he did play AGAINST 3rd teamers, he also played WITH 3RD teamers.

The point is Oz, is just more of what this team already had on the roster, and he is a bust.

What would Sloter become in the NFL? No one will ever know. You are probably right. Probably.

Cugel

10-28-2017, 02:07 PM

At least you are somewhat admitting he had more of an upside than Oz.

You have the luxury of the fact that we will most likely never know. The percentages are CERTAINLY on your side with your assumptions about Sloter.

While he did play AGAINST 3rd teamers, he also played WITH 3RD teamers.

The point is Oz, is just more of what this team already had on the roster, and he is a bust.

What would Sloter become in the NFL? No one will ever know. You are probably right. Probably.

Obviously they liked Chad Kelly more than Sloter and there's really not any way to keep both of them. There is room on any roster for 1 "developmental" QB and on this roster that is Paxton Lynch. He's your backup.

Behind him, stashed safely on the practice squad is your 3rd string developmental QB. That dude is Chad Kelly. Since they can't slip him through waivers, they are close to putting him on IR. They will do this as soon as they need his roster spot.

There was no room for Sloter because he is essentially be competing with Kelly for the same roster spot and they like Kelly's potential more than Sloter's.

Your problem is that you just disagree with them. Lots of fans did. I would have preferred to see him on the roster. But, in the cold hard logic of the NFL it just didn't make any sense.

Osweiler OR Lynch will be on this roster next year. But almost certainly not both, unless they go with one of them as the starter and the other as the backup. They would have to extend Osweiler's contract though.

And Kelly will probably be the #3 QB whoever else they keep unless they conclude that he sucks next training camp.

Valar Morghulis

10-28-2017, 02:08 PM

Cugel

10-28-2017, 02:16 PM

As for Broncoknight30's interesting point that Sloter has more "upside" potential than Osweiler. That would depend on what you wanted him for.

For instance, if the criteria is: "which QB, Sloter or Osweiler, has greater potential to become a long-term starter?" Then I'd have to say "neither of them is the overwhelmingly likely answer, but if I had to pick one, obviously I'd pick Sloter because we've seen what Osweiler can do."

BUT that is not the criteria. They are career backup QBs, both of them in all likelihood, so the real question is "who's a good emergency backup QB who can fill in for a couple games, but I don't want to spend too much to go out and get a good QB because they'd cost too much and want to start. HHHHmmmmm. . . . Osweiler! Because he has starter experience, so although he sucks as a starter he knows what he's doing out there he won't just be a lamb thrown to the wolves as a first time starter in the NFL coming in off the bench in mid-season."

Teams use guys who have failed as long-term starters, like Osweiler, as backups. Trevor Siemian will be in that class next year when he's released. He can go somewhere and get a backup QB job because he has over 1 year starting QB experience. And that experience is valuable, even if it's not exactly "good" experience. He wouldn't be available for you as a backup if he had succeeded in his starting job!

And you'd have to pay him starter money (around $20 M for a FA QB) rather than backup money ($6M or less).

Cugel

10-28-2017, 02:20 PM

If you offered me, my current salary or my current salary pls seven million, I would take the deal

If you were offering me seven million more than the thirty million or so I already hat, I would have stayed in Denver.

It's not even close.

Now I understand he may not be a fan, but that aside..... Everything else was set up for him in Denver, the personnel, the system, the place, the storied franchise.

Look at wolfe and Harris..... when players want to win, it's easy for them to recognise they only need so many million to provide for their family

There is not one single rich guy in the world who will ever agree with you! NONE! Only poor people who have never had money think like that! Rich guys all care TREMENDOUSLY about that extra $7 million even if they already have a guaranteed $30 to stay here.

They all take the money. Take a look at the world. What do billionaires spend their time doing? Trying to get even more money and move up the Forbes 500 Richest List! Completely meaningless because they already have more money than they can conceivably spend in their entire lives no matter what they buy. They can't spend more than a fraction of it, but there they are like squirrels putting away ever more nuts.

Magically, when a person gets a big wad of money their perspective changes. You see it everywhere.

Broncoknight30

10-28-2017, 02:24 PM

This is what a million dollars looks like:
11298
Now imagine 6 more stacks like that:
11298

Now imagine walking away from all that money. Anybody who would do that would have to be incredibly stupid. People can SAY they would do it but nobody actually would do it when looking at that stack!

11298

11298

11298

11298

11298

So, I think we can stop all the fan complaining about players lacking loyalty to their team. You're not that loyal either.

Brady is the 17th highest paid QB. Oz gets more than him. I think. Just saying.

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As Pelissero noted, that money puts Osweiler on the same level as quarterbacks like Tony Romo, Matthew Stafford, and Jay Cutler.

While that could be a worthwhile bet on Osweiler's potential, especially given that he's only 25 years old, it also shows how good the Patriots have it with Tom Brady.

Before the start of free agency, Brady signed an extension with the Patriots that could keep in uniform until he's 42. Doug Kyed of NESN broke down the extension, reporting that Brady's deal will pay him $60 million over the next four years.

It's already cheaper in total value, and it's friendlier to the Patriots, too. Brady will count $14 million against the cap in 2016 and 2017, with base salaries of $1 million in both years. He'll earn $30 million in the first two years of his deal, compared to the $37 million the Texans guaranteed for Osweiler in the first two years of his deal.

http://www.businessinsider.com/brock-osweilers-contract-shows-tom-brady-is-bargain-for-patriots-2016-3
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No one blames a guy taking the money and running. Then again, if that money bankrupts a team and makes it nearly impossible to field a championship roster.....who is to blame for that?

We as fans don't give a shit about how much a player gets. We just want to see wins. So, if ONE player's salary hampers that team from having a realistic shot at winning, then you cannot really blame fans for being bitter.

My point I have been making in other threads is not the player demanding and getting that much money, but the hard cap itself. I don't mind a cap. it is the HARD CAP that gets me frustrated. Combine that with a Brady taking far less money in order to field winners, while no team has that type of luxury, it makes my jaws tighten a little.

Valar Morghulis

10-28-2017, 02:38 PM

There is not one single rich guy in the world who will ever agree with you! NONE! Only poor people who have never had money think like that! Rich guys all care TREMENDOUSLY about that extra $7 million even if they already have a guaranteed $30 to stay here.

They all take the money. Take a look at the world. What do billionaires spend their time doing? Trying to get even more money and move up the Forbes 500 Richest List! Completely meaningless because they already have more money than they can conceivably spend in their entire lives no matter what they buy. They can't spend more than a fraction of it, but there they are like squirrels putting away ever more nuts.

Magically, when a person gets a big wad of money their perspective changes. You see it everywhere.

I guess you judge happiness and success on bank balance, from what I know about life I acknowledge you are not the only one, also that in fact I am probably in the minority.

I'm not sure how many nfl players make the Forbes rich list, so I'm not sure of the relevance to that.

nevcraw

10-28-2017, 03:32 PM

DT88TheGreat

10-28-2017, 04:04 PM

Brady is the 17th highest paid QB. Oz gets more than him. I think. Just saying.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As Pelissero noted, that money puts Osweiler on the same level as quarterbacks like Tony Romo, Matthew Stafford, and Jay Cutler.

While that could be a worthwhile bet on Osweiler's potential, especially given that he's only 25 years old, it also shows how good the Patriots have it with Tom Brady.

Before the start of free agency, Brady signed an extension with the Patriots that could keep in uniform until he's 42. Doug Kyed of NESN broke down the extension, reporting that Brady's deal will pay him $60 million over the next four years.

It's already cheaper in total value, and it's friendlier to the Patriots, too. Brady will count $14 million against the cap in 2016 and 2017, with base salaries of $1 million in both years. He'll earn $30 million in the first two years of his deal, compared to the $37 million the Texans guaranteed for Osweiler in the first two years of his deal.

http://www.businessinsider.com/brock-osweilers-contract-shows-tom-brady-is-bargain-for-patriots-2016-3
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No one blames a guy taking the money and running. Then again, if that money bankrupts a team and makes it nearly impossible to field a championship roster.....who is to blame for that?

We as fans don't give a shit about how much a player gets. We just want to see wins. So, if ONE player's salary hampers that team from having a realistic shot at winning, then you cannot really blame fans for being bitter.

My point I have been making in other threads is not the player demanding and getting that much money, but the hard cap itself. I don't mind a cap. it is the HARD CAP that gets me frustrated. Combine that with a Brady taking far less money in order to field winners, while no team has that type of luxury, it makes my jaws tighten a little.

Yeah HOWEVER brady probably has made a couple hundred million in endorsements and he's also made a pretty penny over his career. Brock will never uave the chance to get those endorsements or consistently make 70-80 million contracts.

Cugel

10-28-2017, 05:39 PM

Brady is the 17th highest paid QB. Oz gets more than him. I think. Just saying. . . . . Combine that with a Brady taking far less money in order to field winners, while no team has that type of luxury, it makes my jaws tighten a little.

Brady does not "take less to field winners" that's a myth:

Tom Brady signed a 2 year, $41,000,000 contract (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-england-patriots/tom-brady-4619/) with the New England Patriots, including a $28,000,000 signing bonus, $28,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $20,500,000. In 2017, Brady will earn a base salary of $1,000,000, while carrying a cap hit of $14,000,000 and a dead cap value of $28,000,000.

Osweiler is getting $775,000 from the Broncos which is the veteran minimum I believe. He got $37,000,000 guaranteed from Houston, but that was supposed to be a 4 year contract and they cut him after 1 year, having to pay the 2 year guarantee = Brock earned $18.5 M per season (including this season, for which the Browns are paying in exchange for receiving Houston's #2 draft pick in 2018).

Brady could ask for more money but he doesn't need it. His wife Giselle has earned about $350,000,000 as a top Supermodel with her own clothing lines, etc. He's already earned about 1/2 that including endorsement deals.

And it's not as if there's this huge difference between Brady's annual $20.5M and Aaron Rogers $22M per, or Drew Brees' $24.3M. So, Brady's contract is slightly older and less, but not out of line with what other top QBs have been paid.

PLus, he can ask for more any time if the average QB price goes up too much that he feels underpaid by comparison with what younger QBs are getting now.

Cugel

10-28-2017, 05:46 PM

I guess you judge happiness and success on bank balance, from what I know about life I acknowledge you are not the only one, also that in fact I am probably in the minority.

I'm not sure how many nfl players make the Forbes rich list, so I'm not sure of the relevance to that.

You've got to be joking! I don't have that kind of fortune, or any fortune at all really. I'm not judging happiness by money, but the NFL is a job, and as Alfred Williams always says: "Players are mercenaries who will take the more money." Their careers are short and they sacrifice their health to play. The teams have zero loyalty to the player, so the player cannot afford to have the slightest loyalty to the team.

Fans just can't wrap their heads around this and think that somehow, because I, the fan, am loyal to the Broncos the player should be equally loyal. Well, they're just not because it's their business and business is about earning a living for your family. Most players only have 1 chance to cash in and few of them will pass that up for team loyalty. Sad to break it to you.

Broncoknight30

10-28-2017, 06:09 PM

You've got to be joking! I don't have that kind of fortune, or any fortune at all really. I'm not judging happiness by money, but the NFL is a job, and as Alfred Williams always says: "Players are mercenaries who will take the more money." Their careers are short and they sacrifice their health to play. The teams have zero loyalty to the player, so the player cannot afford to have the slightest loyalty to the team.

Fans just can't wrap their heads around this and think that somehow, because I, the fan, am loyal to the Broncos the player should be equally loyal. Well, they're just not because it's their business and business is about earning a living for your family. Most players only have 1 chance to cash in and few of them will pass that up for team loyalty. Sad to break it to you.

There is not one player on the Broncos that are nearly as passionate about the Broncos as Broncos fans. True. Von Miller, I am sure dreams of playing for the cowboys for instance. Elway did, and I am sure Dan Reeves being the old coach for his idol Roger Staubach appealed to him when he traded here.

No player is as passionate about the actual franchise they are playing for as the fans.

Again, the fans don't want to hear about the money issue. The hard cap is a major factor and one player getting overpaid puts a real strain on that franchise.

7DnBrnc53

10-28-2017, 06:32 PM

Oh, dude, take off the tinfoil hat! THat conspiracy theory is idiotic! They want to WIN games. Elway just signed a five year deal to stay as the Broncos GM. It made him about the highest paid GM in the league but the money was irrelevant to Elway. He already has over $150M! What more does he need to do anything he wants for the rest of his life? He wants to win more championships. That's all he wants.

So, IF Kyle freakin' Sloter could help Elway win a championship he would be on this roster. Because there is NOTHING that would destroy Elway's reputation more than letting some QB go and then the guy becomes a SB winning QB somewhere else. Know where that has happened before in NFL history?

That's debatable. Coaches and GM's not only want to win, they want to win with THEIR GUY a lot of the time. Look at Tebow. Say what you want about him, but he won a playoff game (unlike the great Trevor Siemian [lol]). However, he was gone with or without Peyton Manning. Elway would have chose Brandon Weeden over him, for crying out loud.

Simple Jaded

10-28-2017, 08:45 PM

Welcome back, friend.

Even though you are a bit deluded about Sloter . . .

I don’t know what you guys think I’m referring to but Sloter showed more QB skills than the other two, I’m not just talking physical ability either, which he has in spades.

Pocket sense and stepping up in pocket, going through progressions, scrambling to buy time and keeping eyes down field, touch, timing, anticipation. On top of a year in a pro style offfnese, which Lynch still hasn’t accrued.

I’m not saying Sloter is Tony Romo, I’m saying he was closer to Romo than the other two.

Now your turn, remind me again how he looked in practice against a defense that makes Tom Brady look like Trevor Siemian.

topscribe

10-28-2017, 09:12 PM

I don’t know what you guys think I’m referring to but Sloter showed more QB skills than the other two, I’m not just talking physical ability either, which he has in spades.

Pocket sense and stepping up in pocket, going through progressions, scrambling to buy time and keeping eyes down field, touch, timing, anticipation. On top of a year in a pro style offfnese, which Lynch still hasn’t accrued.

I’m not saying Sloter is Tony Romo, I’m saying he was closer to Romo than the other two.

Now your turn, remind me again how he looked in practice against a defense that makes Tom Brady look like Trevor Siemian.
Well, I thought I knew what I saw in the games he played. But he played against 3rd and 4th string scrubs.
I found out later that he struggled immensely in practice against first stringers. So much so that they took
a chance in cutting him, admittedly hoping to get him on the PS. But if they really valued him highly, they
would not have taken that chance. They wouldn't have even thought about it with Chad Kelly.

Simple Jaded

10-28-2017, 09:53 PM

topscribe

10-29-2017, 01:44 AM

They didn’t have to do anything with Kelly, we don’t know what they would’ve done if they didn’t have the NFI designation but even then they have the IR option, which is a no-brainer. Even for this FO.
I guess the verb tense blew by you? I said they "wouldn't have" thought . . . etc. That's why I
chose that verb tense. It allowed for his situation. I just thought I wouldn't have to do all the
typing it would take to review what we all already know. :)

Nonetheless, I believe they would have deemed Chad more talented than Sloter and wouldn't
have taken that chance. That is my opinion.

Nonetheless, my point was that the staff wasn't as impressed as some of us were with Sloter,
so they took the chance. Had they been, they wouldn't have. Another team did take the
chance, of course, but they saw him only in preseason games against scrubs. They didn't get
the chance to see him in camp, either. So we'll see how that goes, but I wouldn't be surprised
if we never hear of him again. And, remember, he played for my alma mater, so I am a bit
more familiar with him than most of us.

Broncoknight30

10-29-2017, 07:31 AM

Well, I thought I knew what I saw in the games he played. But he played against 3rd and 4th string scrubs.
I found out later that he struggled immensely in practice against first stringers. So much so that they took
a chance in cutting him, admittedly hoping to get him on the PS. But if they really valued him highly, they
would not have taken that chance. They wouldn't have even thought about it with Chad Kelly.

Yes, all of that is true. Look, most of us are not just assuming Sloter would have been the next version of Favre or whatever. What most of do think he was having a better camp than the other two. Just to reiterate, it comes down to upside. At least for me. He showed that there is an upside with his ability. Would it have translated to the NFL level? Probably not. Just that whenever someone brings up that he played AGAINST 3rd teamers, I always point out that he also play WITH 3rd teamers. Which sort of cancels each other out. Sort of.

Since Sloter has taken over the topic of this thread, here are some of his highlights in the preseason. There are some big league throws in there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWvQBYF8FwE

at .35
at 1:51
at 2:17 Really, an outstanding play. Running to his left and threw a very accurate pass. No QB on the roster has that in them. I dont think anyway.
at 2:27 a good deep out pass. Yes, the defender fell, but the pass got there with zip. In case you wanted to know what scouts really look for in arm strength. Those patterns and passes are what they typically look at.
at 2:37
at 2:45

Again, just to reiterate. All of that probably means very little. It is just that I still think he outperformed ALL of the QBs in TC. I seem to recall a lot of posts and Tweets from people at TC (along with reporters) saying how good he was looking. When you say he struggled immensely against the Broncos starters, that actually makes me feel good. Hate to see a walk on dismantling the No Fly Zone. You get the point.

He is gone, nothing we can do about it now. I thought he showed some promise, and now we have a roster filled with blah......until we can see what Kelly may or may not have. Assuming Elway does not spend a draft pick on yet another first round QB in 2018.

DT88TheGreat

10-29-2017, 12:19 PM

I am not going too lie kyle sloter did make some big boy throws from the pocket and rolling out to his left and right, the Broncos simply showed too much of sloter and thought they could sneak him onto the practice squad lol. It failed!

However the Broncos foud themselves in a situation where lynch got hurt and would be missing 5 weeks or so and they absolutely didn't want to put Kelly on the practice squad and they didn't wanna put him on IR either it seems? Just incase he's available to get some garbage reps late in the year maybe? Idk but anyways kyle sloter made some throws that Trevor could only dream of making or taking. He has the gun slinver mentality that yiu have to have if you want to even have a chance at being a legit quarterback. Scary quarterbacks just don't last man!