So... How Short is Siemian’s Leash?

[spikerman]

Have the last few weeks made the coaches consider a move? If his first half next week looks like the Giants game, will the coaches have him take a seat? If I were the coach, the first half next week would be make or break. Not just because of Sunday, but because of the last three weeks.

[swaiy]

Trevor is cheeks but what option do they have. Osweiler? LOL

[spikerman]

Trevor is cheeks but what option do they have. Osweiler? LOL

At this point what’s the worst that could happen? As soon as he’s healthy I’d play Lynch, but Siemian has killed them the past three weeks.

[BroncoWave]

I think he stays the starter as long as we are in the playoff race. I, personally, think Osweiler is better, but I don't think we'll see him. I definitely don't think we see Lynch. Dude just isn't ready. If we do make a change, I think it would be to Oz before Lynch. I could be wrong, though.

[dogfish]

long. . . the other options suck worse. . . i think we'll go hard after a good vet next year if trev doesn't improve significantly. . .

[Timmy!]

Long. That said, gimme OZ!!!

#prodigleson
#giraffe
#style4king

[spikerman]

long. . . the other options suck worse. . . i think we'll go hard after a good vet next year if trev doesn't improve significantly. . .

I don’t disagree, but I would rather see the team lose and know they don’t have the QBOTF on the roster than lose and still not know.

[Slick]

Oz and Lynch are much worse. We're stuck with this guy for at least this season.

Yay! How exciting.

[Hawgdriver]

His leash is quite short. Elway is a fan of posture collars.

[wayninja]

I agree, he won't make to to two more games like the Giants.

However, I suspect it won't come to that. That's always the most infuriating thing about Siemian... he can play just well enough in a loss to make you question whether or not he's doing the job.

[NightTerror218]

Nobody knows with lynch. He has not played much. He is as much if a question mark as any rookie. He was given a shit in camp but he like many QBs in new systems struggle. So until he get a decent amount of starts Elway will be pushing for him to play.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I don’t disagree, but I would rather see the team lose and know they don’t have the QBOTF on the roster than lose and still not know.

The only other two quarterbacks I would be interested in seeing this year are Kelly and Osweiler. The other dude needs TIME.

[dogfish]

I don’t disagree, but I would rather see the team lose and know they don’t have the QBOTF on the roster than lose and still not know.

yea, i hear ya. . . we should get an idea in the next few games. . . either TS plays better, or he plays like he did this past week-- if it's the latter, how they respond to it should tell us a pretty good bit. . . if lynch has gotten in a couple weeks of practice, and they decide to go w/ os instead in the case of a QB change, then we'll know that they truly don't think PS is ready. . .

[Shazam!]

If a change is going to be considered i am dying to see what Kelly can do. We know what we have in Lynch.

[MOtorboat]

It's a long leash.

[Krugan]

Are people honestly wanting to see kelly, who hasnt even had a snap yet?

[Freyaka]

Have the last few weeks made the coaches consider a move? If his first half next week looks like the Giants game, will the coaches have him take a seat? If I were the coach, the first half next week would be make or break. Not just because of Sunday, but because of the last three weeks.

I think he'd already be on the bench if we had another option. Wonder if John could convice Romo to come win a Superbowl.

[Freyaka]

Are people honestly wanting to see kelly, who hasnt even had a snap yet?

I mean why not, is what we've got so exciting that we can't look at other options?

[Freyaka]

The only other two quarterbacks I would be interested in seeing this year are Kelly and Osweiler. The other dude needs TIME.

Time really isn't something we have, he needs to get his crap together, if he can't and won't be ready for another 2-3 years then jettison him and draft someone who will.

[Mike]

Are people honestly wanting to see kelly, who hasnt even had a snap yet?

Only until he hits the field. Then it's on to letting Bolles give it a shot...then Von...and on down the line.

Sooner or later we all got to wake up and recognize that Elway screwed up the QB situation and has questionable decision making abilities regarding that position. Oline situation is on him too. Bolles was a great pick and Leary was a nice pickup, but there is no reason that RT and LG situation should be where it is at today.

[Shazam!]

Are people honestly wanting to see kelly, who hasnt even had a snap yet?

Who the hell knows. I just wanna see what he can do.

I remember his father who was great. If he can channel 25% of Jim Kelly he could be a gamer.

[wayninja]

Who the hell knows. I just wanna see what he can do.

I remember his father who was great. If he can channel 25% of Jim Kelly he could be a gamer.

Uncle

[Freyaka]

Only until he hits the field. Then it's on to letting Bolles give it a shot...then Von...and on down the line.

Sooner or later we all got to wake up and recognize that Elway screwed up the QB situation and has questionable decision making abilities regarding that position. Oline situation is on him too. Bolles was a great pick and Leary was a nice pickup, but there is no reason that RT and LG situation should be where it is at today.

Agree on the QB, completely disagree on the line. Look at the entire league...most of the league is facing similar issues. You can blame that on college football and their systems being so different from most NFL offenses. Every o-line is struggling these days.

[Freyaka]

Who the hell knows. I just wanna see what he can do.

I remember his father who was great. If he can channel 25% of Jim Kelly he could be a gamer.

I've never seen his father play, pretty sure you haven't either. I have seen his Uncle play though.

[Slick]

I mean why not, is what we've got so exciting that we can't look at other options?


Time really isn't something we have, he needs to get his crap together, if he can't and won't be ready for another 2-3 years then jettison him and draft someone who will.

You've awaken and finally seen the light!

[Freyaka]

You've awaken and finally seen the light!

I mean consider it hit us all sunday like a bat over the face, I'd have to be pretty dang stubborn to still be clinging to hope at this point.

[Slick]

I mean consider it hit us all sunday like a bat over the face, I'd have to be pretty dang stubborn to still be clinging to hope at this point.

I hope our fearless leader is okay. Someone should go to Arkansas and check on him.

[LawDog]

Are people honestly wanting to see kelly, who hasnt even had a snap yet?

Well, yeah. But not during any games this season. Next camp will be interesting.

[tripp]

I'm blaming play calling/coaching more than Siemian. I'm sorry but the play calls were horrible Sunday night. Siemian doesn't go from 4 TD's week 1, to a pick 6, INT, and 1 (garbage time) TD in week 5 without the play calling changing. Not defending Siemian at all, and to be honest, I would've been OK with Oz playing the 2nd half. We needed some sort of shock to get us back into the game, and I found Siemian wasn't on his A game that night.

Red zone is awful too, and what excuse is there when you had 2 weeks to figure out the red zone issues, and still fail miserably in the RZ.

CJ Anderson is who I thought he was, a mediocre RB at best. Jamaal Charles is still good, and needs more carries IMO.

Sometimes when it's not your night, it's not your night. It was evident Sunday night. But to be fair, we looked lethargic against the Raiders in the 2nd half, and we looked brutal against the Bills.

What has changed so much from the first 2 weeks, to now?

[dogfish]

I hope our fearless leader is okay. Someone should go to Arkansas and check on him.

T's resilient. . . he lived through dan reeves, brian griese, josh mcdaniels, and tim tebow. . . this can't break him. . . he'll knock back a case of that expensive french wine and get over it. . .

:heh:

[Tned]

I hope our fearless leader is okay. Someone should go to Arkansas and check on him.

I'm good. Just got reminded how intense, and even emotional, Broncos QB discussions get. Since I love discussing/debating, QB controversies are fun for me, but I realize that for others not so much, so I've stepped back a bit.

Also, took a week off from work for my 25th anniversary and went up to Branson with the wife.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Well, yeah. But not during any games this season. Next camp will be interesting.

Thank you for spelling it out for him.

[Hawgdriver]

I'm good. Just got reminded how intense, and even emotional, Broncos QB discussions get. Since I love discussing/debating, QB controversies are fun for me, but I realize that for others not so much, so I've stepped back a bit.

Also, took a week off from work for my 25th anniversary and went up to Branson with the wife.

congrats buddy

[Krugan]

I mean why not, is what we've got so exciting that we can't look at other options?

Well, honestly, if you all cant handle a guy in his 2nd year starting, there really should be NO WAY you can handle a guy who has been on the IR since he was drafted.

Not trying to be a dick here, but i cant see patience for this move either. Just my 2 cents.

[Freyaka]

Well, honestly, if you all cant handle a guy in his 2nd year starting, there really should be NO WAY you can handle a guy who has been on the IR since he was drafted.

Not trying to be a dick here, but i cant see patience for this move either. Just my 2 cents.

Who cares if he's been on IR since drafting, he's got a stronger pedigree and actually has potential to be our QBOFT. Before his injury and off the field issues, he was widely regarded as a top QB and first round prospect. Trevor's show some flashes, but he's clearly regressing, if it's glaringly obvious he's not the long term answer, why the hell should we continue to drag this out further?

If we're going to suck this year, I'd rather we suck testing out someone like Kelly than continue the downward spiral. At least if Kelly hasn't shown growth by the end of the year we can draft a QB next year to groom to compete with Kelly and Paxton next year.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Who cares if he's been on IR since drafting, he's got a stronger pedigree and actually has potential to be our QBOFT. Before his injury and off the field issues, he was widely regarded as a top QB and first round prospect. Trevor's show some flashes, but he's clearly regressing, if it's glaringly obvious he's not the long term answer, why the hell should we continue to drag this out further?

If we're going to suck this year, I'd rather we suck testing out someone like Kelly than continue the downward spiral. At least if Kelly hasn't shown growth by the end of the year we can draft a QB next year to groom to compete with Kelly and Paxton next year.

Kelley hasn’t even had a training camp yet, so he really isn’t a viable option to see on the field this regular-season

[tripp]

Who cares if he's been on IR since drafting, he's got a stronger pedigree and actually has potential to be our QBOFT. Before his injury and off the field issues, he was widely regarded as a top QB and first round prospect. Trevor's show some flashes, but he's clearly regressing, if it's glaringly obvious he's not the long term answer, why the hell should we continue to drag this out further?

If we're going to suck this year, I'd rather we suck testing out someone like Kelly than continue the downward spiral. At least if Kelly hasn't shown growth by the end of the year we can draft a QB next year to groom to compete with Kelly and Paxton next year.

I'd rather roll with Siemian/Oz this year than throw Kelly into the fire mid way through a season. He deserves a fair chance just like anyone else. It could be detrimental to his development if he gets thrown in mid way through a season and plays horribly.

If we're to make a QB chance, would rather it be Oz. FO likes him for a reason, and he's familiar with McCoy's offense. It atleast gives a fighting chance to succeed this season.

Nothing stopping this team from drafting another QB in 2018's draft. I would draft a QB in every year's draft IMO. It's clear that you can find a diamond in the late rounds.

Also should keep in mind how many good QB's needed a couple years to figure things out before they really took off.

[Valar Morghulis]

Put it this way, I am glad I never pulled the trigger on a #13 jersey

[Krugan]

Who cares if he's been on IR since drafting, he's got a stronger pedigree and actually has potential to be our QBOFT. Before his injury and off the field issues, he was widely regarded as a top QB and first round prospect. Trevor's show some flashes, but he's clearly regressing, if it's glaringly obvious he's not the long term answer, why the hell should we continue to drag this out further?

If we're going to suck this year, I'd rather we suck testing out someone like Kelly than continue the downward spiral. At least if Kelly hasn't shown growth by the end of the year we can draft a QB next year to groom to compete with Kelly and Paxton next year.

I care.

I think it would be a complete mistake to even consider sending the kid, who has issues with maturity anyway, into a shit show situation such as replacing a current starter with a guy who has no reps at all.

I get it, your upset about what we are seeing. But this would be worse by far, and I cant believe your being fully honest with yourself about how you would feel with a true rookie who had no camp and or reps in this offense taking the field. If thats the case, just play Lynch. He will be a shit show too, and give Kelly at least a chance to get a feel for being a pro....

[Freyaka]

Put it this way, I am glad I never pulled the trigger on a #13 jersey

I came very close to buying one for the Game vs KC in KC...I would rather wear my champ jersey at this point. My buddy is trying to convince me that I'd be smarter not to wear a jersey at all, but I'm going to support my team. Screw those worthless KC fans.

[wayninja]

I just wear my Lynch jersey. I think that sends an appropriately mixed message.

[Freyaka]

I just wear my Lynch jersey. I think that sends an appropriately mixed message.

I could wear a John Lynch jersey and that would really muddy the waters.

[Cugel]

Kelley hasn’t even had a training camp yet, so he really isn’t a viable option to see on the field this regular-season

You would think this would be obvious to even the most blind mole. Apparently it isn't because we see all these posts on it. Oh, well. Chad Kelly is another in a long string of strong-armed QBs of the type that seem to enthrall the fans and sports-writers. But, he's hopelessly raw. Maybe he will become a starting QB for some time, but the odds are against it.

For one thing, the very thing that fans seem to love "he's a gun-slinger" is against him. NFL coaches HATE "gun-slingers." They want QBs like Trevor who do what they are told. Throw to the check-down and if it's not open on 3rd and 7 toss it out of bounds and punt. Do NOT run around and "try and make something happen" because usually what happens is bad. Of course, nobody likes what Trevor is doing now: throwing picks, but I don't think there's much room in the NFL any more for a QB who relies on his arm strength to gun it in there.

That is not my attitude. That is the incredibly anal, fear-obsessed NFL coaching fraternity. They have good reason for not taking risks, the stats show that turnovers will kill you quickly.

Probably for Kelly to have any chance he'd have to totally re-invent himself into the kind of QB coaches love. Conservative. Safe. Predictable. Goes through his progressions and takes the safe play.

Notice that the Panthers tried to do this to Cam Newton last year. They tried to make him a pocket-passer. He was bad at it. And this was the NFL MVP of 2015 they tried to put in this straight jacket.

I'm not even going to bother to criticize it. It seems to work. It's just boring as hell.

[BroncoJoe]

Put it this way, I am glad I never pulled the trigger on a #13 jersey

Probably because you've pulled too many "triggers".

[Cugel]

I care.

I think it would be a complete mistake to even consider sending the kid, who has issues with maturity anyway, into a shit show situation such as replacing a current starter with a guy who has no reps at all.

I get it, your upset about what we are seeing. But this would be worse by far, and I cant believe your being fully honest with yourself about how you would feel with a true rookie who had no camp and or reps in this offense taking the field. If thats the case, just play Lynch. He will be a shit show too, and give Kelly at least a chance to get a feel for being a pro....

If Trevor continues to spiral out of control, they will eventually put in . . . Brock Osweiler. Chad Kelly will get his chance in OTAs in 2018 and not before. Paxton seems to be headed for IR or at least he's taking up a roster spot in the fear that Trevor might be hurt and they'd need a backup, no matter how unready he is.

[wayninja]

I just want another fainting-goat, glass shouldered, boy biscuit to do what he's told and lead the team to a mediocre season. That feels like the sweet spot.

[Shazam!]

Man. I wasnt saying throw Kelly in to START. Just want to see what he's got. Maybe he can push Trevor or add something.

Idont have time for Joel and Cugel posts. I'm sorry.

[Broncoknight30]

The simple fact that we have to admit is Siemian is still the best QB on the roster. Is anyone here advocating for Osweiler? No, I don't think so. Ok, Paxton Lynch? Really? Is that where we think the offense may improve? Even if they made the switch, is there really a fan that is all confident with a switch to guy that two coaching staffs decided was worse than Siemian?

Kelly? No. Not this year.

So, it is Siemian. That is it.

[spikerman]

The simple fact that we have to admit is Siemian is still the best QB on the roster. Is anyone here advocating for Osweiler? No, I don't think so. Ok, Paxton Lynch? Really? Is that where we think the offense may improve? Even if they made the switch, is there really a fan that is all confident with a switch to guy that two coaching staffs decided was worse than Siemian?

Kelly? No. Not this year.

So, it is Siemian. That is it.
I’m not saying anybody on the roster is better, but if it won’t get any better than this, might as well put someone in to see if they could be the future. If not, you’ve lost nothing, but gained insight into where to go from here. Or, they could continue to play Siemian, limp to a bad record, and still not be sure whether they need a different QB on the roster. The choice seems pretty obvious to me.

[Northman]

If Denver loses a couple more games they will make a change one way or another. For now though, they are 3-2 currently so until they are put into a position where they need to change the tide to try and win more games Siemian will remain as the starter. But if he cant improve his own performance than it wont take long for the team to "Orton" him.

[dogfish]

I just want another fainting-goat, glass shouldered, boy biscuit to do what he's told and lead the team to a mediocre season. That feels like the sweet spot.

so, go with brock?


lol @ the thought of them playing kelly this year out of anything besides sheer desperation. . . i could see lynch, especially if one of the guys ahead of him gets hurt. . . he at least got a whole off-season splitting reps with the ones, and has a BIT of experience. . . i'm fairly sure they would sign TJ yates or christian frickin' ponder before they would put kelly in a game this year. . . hell, sloter looked great in pre-season action, and they trusted him to be be the backup so much they cut him and brought back the brosweiler. . . kelly is about five inches shorter, and totally lacks sloter's maturity and intangibles. . . they aren't running him out there this year. . . it's easy for fans to say "eff it, let's start throwing shit against the wall to see if something sticks," but this is elway and VJ's job-- that kind of approach is nowhere to be found in their playbook. . .

if trevor falters in the coming weeks, it will almost certainly be osweiler replacing him. . . and if he sucks, and we're out of it, then we will likely go to lynch. . . kelly's not in play this year outside of some crazy set of circumstances. . .

[Broncoknight30]

I’m not saying anybody on the roster is better, but if it won’t get any better than this, might as well put someone in to see if they could be the future. If not, you’ve lost nothing, but gained insight into where to go from here. Or, they could continue to play Siemian, limp to a bad record, and still not be sure whether they need a different QB on the roster. The choice seems pretty obvious to me.

What exactly is the deal with Kelly?

[Hawgdriver]

What exactly is the deal with Kelly?

Excessive bong syndrome.

[Northman]

What exactly is the deal with Kelly?

Mainly just name. He has skills but a 2 cent head.

[NightTerror218]

If they do a QB change it will be Lynch. Because this team is still playoff bound and wont make a change unless that changes or Siemian is hurt. Lynch to me is obvious choice. He need experience and confidence builder. He is probably the best passer on the team still. Everyone say hiw bad is was as a full time starter last year so he will remain as backup for life.

[Broncoknight30]

Mainly just name. He has skills but a 2 cent head.

Yeah, I read all of that. I guess I am sort of hoping he has received a good lesson from his uncle and has wisened up.

I am just wondering what the deal is with his injury.

I guess as a fan I am a little desperate. Cause based on the last 3 weeks, this team is not going to have the offense to finish above. 500.

[spikerman]

What exactly is the deal with Kelly?

No idea. I don’t know enough about him to judge. He’s too hurt to play anyway.

[Cugel]

The simple fact that we have to admit is Siemian is still the best QB on the roster. Is anyone here advocating for Osweiler? No, I don't think so. Ok, Paxton Lynch? Really? Is that where we think the offense may improve? Even if they made the switch, is there really a fan that is all confident with a switch to guy that two coaching staffs decided was worse than Siemian?

Kelly? No. Not this year.

So, it is Siemian. That is it.

YOu put it shorter and better than me.

IT really is Siemian or bust this year. We might as well get used to it. The team is what it is. Horrible OL. Nobody at RT since Watson sucked and now is hurt - with the same kind of leg injury that caused him to miss 1/2 his NFL career already. We know how that ends. Donald Stephenson was a healthy inactive last week. If they had anybody at all they could use they would probably get rid of him.

Instead he's starting at RT this weekend. Critics are already saying "I hope they don't plan any 5 step or 7 step drops, because there's no way the OL will hold up to that."

We might see Brock in this game after all if the Chargers manage to stuff the run and Siemian has to throw 50 times like the last game.

This has all the feel of Picket's Charge right into the cannons, not because the Chargers are good, they aren't, but because the Broncos Offense can't play dead in a western and Siemian is looking more and more lost out there.

[Cugel]

If they do a QB change it will be Lynch. Because this team is still playoff bound and wont make a change unless that changes or Siemian is hurt. Lynch to me is obvious choice. He need experience and confidence builder. He is probably the best passer on the team still. Everyone say hiw bad is was as a full time starter last year so he will remain as backup for life.

They really don't think Lynch is ready. That's why they signed Osweiler. "He might suck, but at least he has experience!" Nobody in Dove Valley wants to see Lynch in any game. We saw that last year. It was not pretty and from all accounts he has not improved much if at all this year.

[Cugel]

"kelly is about five inches shorter, . . . ." Really? That's a fatal flaw in Elway's book. Apparently only giraffes are considered potential good QBs.

[spikerman]

Who cares if Lynch is “ready?” Throw him out there and let him learn under fire once he’s healthy. The Broncos may still lose, but they won’t be as boring as we saw last week.

[Northman]

The Broncos may still lose, but they won’t be as boring as we saw last week.

Not so sure about that.

[turftoad]

Who cares if Lynch is “ready?” Throw him out there and let him learn under fire once he’s healthy. The Broncos may still lose, but they won’t be as boring as we saw last week.

At some point they all need to be thrown in there under fire or else you just don't know. Not to compare but Kurt Warner?

[spikerman]

Not so sure about that.

Lynch will want to show off his arm.

[Hawgdriver]

Who cares if Lynch is “ready?” Throw him out there and let him learn under fire once he’s healthy. The Broncos may still lose, but they won’t be as boring as we saw last week.

Watching Lynch audition for NFL QB under the lights makes me embarrassed to be a Broncos fan. Beyond Tebow embarrassed. At least Tebow you thought might call down the heavens or concuss himself. Lynch is like watching a 3 y/o try calculus.

[spikerman]

Watching Lynch audition for NFL QB under the lights makes me embarrassed to be a Broncos fan. Beyond Tebow embarrassed. At least Tebow you thought might call down the heavens or concuss himself. Lynch is like watching a 3 y/o try calculus.
Fun though, right?

[Hawgdriver]

Fun though, right?

Oh hell yes.

[spikerman]

Oh hell yes.

That’s my point!

[Hawgdriver]

That’s my point!

You win, sir.

[dogfish]

Fun though, right?

not at all. . . watching a 3-year-old try to tie their shoes is fun. . . careful what you wish for, spikey!

[spikerman]

not at all. . . watching a 3-year-old try to tie their shoes is fun. . . careful what you wish for, spikey!

I wish to not watch the same boring, futile garbage I had to watch on Sunday.

[dogfish]

I wish to not watch the same boring, futile garbage I had to watch on Sunday.

i don't think anyone's gonna argue with that sentiment!

[Broncoknight30]

YOu put it shorter and better than me.

IT really is Siemian or bust this year. We might as well get used to it. The team is what it is. Horrible OL. Nobody at RT since Watson sucked and now is hurt - with the same kind of leg injury that caused him to miss 1/2 his NFL career already. We know how that ends. Donald Stephenson was a healthy inactive last week. If they had anybody at all they could use they would probably get rid of him.

Instead he's starting at RT this weekend. Critics are already saying "I hope they don't plan any 5 step or 7 step drops, because there's no way the OL will hold up to that."

We might see Brock in this game after all if the Chargers manage to stuff the run and Siemian has to throw 50 times like the last game.

This has all the feel of Picket's Charge right into the cannons, not because the Chargers are good, they aren't, but because the Broncos Offense can't play dead in a western and Siemian is looking more and more lost out there.

The only thing to hope for is some magic carpet ride like 2015. Which, quite frankly is pretty unrealistic. Looking back at that season (just looked that schedule), trying not to use the word "luck" but there were like 8 wins that could have went the other way if the ball bounced the other way. Not being literal, but you know what I mean.

I guess we have to hope for that.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

The only thing to hope for is some magic carpet ride like 2015. Which, quite frankly is pretty unrealistic. Looking back at that season (just looked that schedule), trying not to use the word "luck" but there were like 8 wins that could have went the other way if the ball bounced the other way. Not being literal, but you know what I mean.

I guess we have to hope for that.

Hoping for one of the best 3 or 4 defenses of the last 30 years to reappear is indeed unrealistic. Trevaithan is gone, Ware is gone, Jackson is gone, TJ Ward is gone. Simmons is a fine player, but his inexperience has been exposed a few times.

[Hawgdriver]

Hoping for one of the best 3 or 4 defenses of the last 30 years to reappear is indeed unrealistic. Trevaithan is gone, Ware is gone, Jackson is gone, TJ Ward is gone. Simmons is a fine player, but his inexperience has been exposed a few times.

Mayor, what do you think about the decision to release Ward now?

[Broncoknight30]

Mayor, what do you think about the decision to release Ward now?

In a hard cap league, all of that is part of the reality. The same way Pats fans felt when they got rid of Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law, Richard Seymour, and on and on.

Would have loved to have them kept the entire defense of 2015, but that is just not the reality.

I use to like to the hard cap, and now I am soured about it. I have been noticing it over the last few years actually. Like the notion that it is a QB driven league. While that is true, even the QBs large contracts that they demand puts strains on the team and what they are able to do.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Mayor, what do you think about the decision to release Ward now?

I don’t like it but I still think it was the right move. I know that sounds a little contradictory, but it’s a head vs heart thing.

[Hawgdriver]

I thought Ward was more of a 2017 cash thing.

I think his presence is desperately missed and this 2017 defense is a shell in large part because of the leadership and continuity void. Plus Simmons ain't yet NFZ and might never be. As good as he is claimed to be. Might even be better than Ward but the chemistry ain't right.

[dogfish]

I don’t like it but I still think it was the right move. I know that sounds a little contradictory, but it’s a head vs heart thing.

he's still banged up with the bad hammy-- he's missed two of the last three games. . . i think it's kind of a moot discussion at this point. . . no, simmons hasn't been as tight back there as prime form TJ, but TJ probably wouldn't be playing like that right now if he was still here, either. . . just a case of age catching up to the original no fly zone a little. . . gotta hope simmons continues growing into the role-- he obviously has the skills, just needs to be a a little more consistent. . .

[Hawgdriver]

Yeah I say that but statistically this D is still swoll.

[dogfish]

I thought Ward was more of a 2017 cash thing.

I think his presence is desperately missed and this 2017 defense is a shell in large part because of the leadership and continuity void. Plus Simmons ain't yet NFZ and might never be. As good as he is claimed to be. Might even be better than Ward but the chemistry ain't right.

you can add ware to the leadership discussion. . .

i'm interested to see if we get an on-field boost from shane ray when he gets back. . . IMO, the lack of our extra rushers has been one of the things limiting the defense's ability to make dynamic plays. . .

[dogfish]

Yeah I say that but statistically this D is still swoll.

in terms of not allowing points, yes. . . they aren't making plays, though. . . we're near the bottom of the league in turnovers. . . yes, it's harder to get them when teams are ahead of you by a couple scores, but we haven't played that much ball from that scenario. . . the second half of the NY game is the only stretch that got away from us, we've been ahead or tight in every other game. . . yet we're posting mediocre sack number, and not forcing TOs. . . i have to think that not having our full complement of rushers plays into that. . . shaq and von are playing too many snaps at their size, and we don't have quality fresh legs to bring in on third downs like we have in past years. . . that's why i hope 56 can come back strong and ready to go, we need the reinforcements. . .

[Broncoknight30]

I thought Ward was more of a 2017 cash thing.

I think his presence is desperately missed and this 2017 defense is a shell in large part because of the leadership and continuity void. Plus Simmons ain't yet NFZ and might never be. As good as he is claimed to be. Might even be better than Ward but the chemistry ain't right.

The defense is ranked number 1 in the NFL. The defense is really not suffering without him right now.

Meaning I would not call the defense a shell of what it was.

[wayninja]

I'm with dogfish. The defense is basically stout, but the lack of a pass rush and the lack of turnovers are preventing this D from being that once-in-a-generation thing we saw in 2015. The talent is all there though.

I too am hoping Shane Ray is the straw that tips the balance in breaking the dam, or whatever the metaphor is.

[Cugel]

I wish to not watch the same boring, futile garbage I had to watch on Sunday.

You think it can't get worse? Oh, baby, that's one thing I learned in life. It can always get worse. The Broncos go down that road, put in Paxton, and you know what happens? They instantly lose the locker-room. The players decide that the team is in "rebuilding mode" only a bunch of them starting with Aqib Talib don't want to play for a "rebuilding team" because they are over 30 and can easily find another team that wants to win, not spend the next three years trying desperately to find a decent QB.

They might do that anyway, but not unless they are forced to. And if Trevor flames out this season, you can bet next year Elway is going to draft another rookie QB in the first round and look for a veteran to come in and lead the team into the playoffs. Like Peyton, like Tony Romo (not Tony now since he's retired but a veteran), like maybe Kirk Cousins. He's not going to accept crappy QB play and a rookie = crappy QB play.

Ex: Mitch Trubisky was taken by the Bears with the #2 overall pick to replace Jay Cutler. He's not done all that well. There are just no guarantees. It's fine for a crap team like the Bears who are going nowhere in the NFC North to play Trubisky. It's quite another for the Broncos who are expected to compete for a Sb to start a rookie.

[Cugel]

I'm with dogfish. The defense is basically stout, but the lack of a pass rush and the lack of turnovers are preventing this D from being that once-in-a-generation thing we saw in 2015. The talent is all there though.

I too am hoping Shane Ray is the straw that tips the balance in breaking the dam, or whatever the metaphor is.

NFL history shows that no team ever wins the SB twice with just amazing defense. The '86 Bears still had Richard Dent and a roster full of stars like Walter Peyton. They didn't get back to the SB. Same for the 2001 Ravens, the 2003 Bucs and the 2016 Broncos. Nobody has done that. Once every decade on average a team wins the SB with a crap offense and QB play like Jim McMahon, Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson, but lightning never strikes twice in the same place.

[wayninja]

And NFL history will never show it until it happens.

Also, lighting strikes the same places all the time.

[dogfish]

NFL history shows that no team ever wins the SB twice with just amazing defense. The '86 Bears still had Richard Dent and a roster full of stars like Walter Peyton. They didn't get back to the SB. Same for the 2001 Ravens, the 2003 Bucs and the 2016 Broncos. Nobody has done that. Once every decade on average a team wins the SB with a crap offense and QB play like Jim McMahon, Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson, but lightning never strikes twice in the same place.


And NFL history will never show it until it happens.

Also, lighting strikes the same places all the time.

the seahawks were one bone-headed play call away from having a golden opportunity to accomplish it. . . also, i think you can make an argument that all three of new england's early runs were won largely on the backs of their defense, even if it wasn't as dominant or distinguished a group as the others we're talking about. . . and yes, even young tom shady was significantly better than the game-managing scrubs those squads had. . . those earlier pats teams were nothing remotely close to the offensive machine they've grown into over the years, though. . .

in any case, yea, it's effin' hard to repeat. . . you need so many things to break right for you when you don't have the star QB. . . i can't see elway settling for anything less than pulling out any and all available stops to find a quality veteran starter next off-season, if trevor continues on his current trajectory. . . the defensive scheme/personnel may need a tweak or two along the way, but we still have enough pieces for them to be plenty damn good. . . IF the rest of the team can be brought along to a place where they can at least make a halfway respectable effort at playing good complimentary football. . . and that certainly also includes things like the ****ing kicker actually making kicks, not failing on fake punts, not failing to score from the one yard line, and the O-line not killing 4-5 drives per game with penalties, as well as better QB play. . . but if we can clean up some details, our window should still be open for another couple years with this D. . . gotta see what happens with talib, and we need better ILBs, but gotsis and harris are helping, and langley looks promising. . . i think simmons will come along as well, and parks is capable. . .

we can't wait to find out about that, though. . . the "now" window is probably a year or two, and that doesn't leave room to develop a rook if one of the guys on the roster doesn't seize it this year. . . i can't see JFE not going as hard as he can after a "win now" vet in that scenario, regardless of whether he also goes back to the draft or not. . .

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I thought Ward was more of a 2017 cash thing.

I think his presence is desperately missed and this 2017 defense is a shell in large part because of the leadership and continuity void. Plus Simmons ain't yet NFZ and might never be. As good as he is claimed to be. Might even be better than Ward but the chemistry ain't right.

I’m persuaded Stewart is a better SS than Ward and Simmons has elite range on the backend. He just blows assignments from time to time. I think the biggest issue with our D right now is a lack of a pass rush outside of Von.

[Hawgdriver]

I’m persuaded Stewart is a better SS than Ward and Simmons has elite range on the backend. He just blows assignments from time to time. I think the biggest issue with our D right now is a lack of a pass rush outside of Von.

Won't argue ya, but it's mainly Ward's presence. Hard to measure and I might just be puffin nonsense.

[dogfish]

Won't argue ya, but it's mainly Ward's presence. Hard to measure and I might just be puffin nonsense.

he's an enforcer. . . he and malik brought a lot of the nasty to that '15 defense. . . we still have wolfe and talib, but more attitude is better. . . peko has contributed some. . .

[Hawgdriver]

he's an enforcer. . . he and malik brought a lot of the nasty to that '15 defense. . . we still have wolfe and talib, but more attitude is better. . . peko has contributed some. . .

These guys could be special, like '15...Gotsis is a dude. But jfc Siemian can't lose us more games like Bills and Giants. He loses another one for the team, I am done with him.

[Northman]

I use to like to the hard cap, and now I am soured about it. I have been noticing it over the last few years actually. Like the notion that it is a QB driven league. While that is true, even the QBs large contracts that they demand puts strains on the team and what they are able to do.

Interesting take, so do you agree with Weazel that paying Von all that money strapped the team negatively? Would it have been better to trade him? Not saying you are right or wrong as many people ive seen talking about guys like Flacco making it very difficult to get more talent on their team have similar thoughts. But are we at a stage in the NFL where its just not feasible anymore to have one player eat up a lot of the cap in order to build a reliable franchise? While i do love Von it does make me wonder if keeping him at that cost was really worth it in the long run. A lot of the success of long term contenders the last 30 years has really only been one position and it isnt LB. The reality is the QB position is really the most important part of the team, at least judging by the last 30-40 years.

[Northman]

you can add ware to the leadership discussion. . .

i'm interested to see if we get an on-field boost from shane ray when he gets back. . . IMO, the lack of our extra rushers has been one of the things limiting the defense's ability to make dynamic plays. . .

Considering how much Von gets paid on this team shouldnt he be the guy that motivates this club? It certainly isnt going to come from any of the QB's we have. :lol:

[Broncoknight30]

Interesting take, so do you agree with Weazel that paying Von all that money strapped the team negatively? Would it have been better to trade him? Not saying you are right or wrong as many people ive seen talking about guys like Flacco making it very difficult to get more talent on their team have similar thoughts. But are we at a stage in the NFL where its just not feasible anymore to have one player eat up a lot of the cap in order to build a reliable franchise? While i do love Von it does make me wonder if keeping him at that cost was really worth it in the long run. A lot of the success of long term contenders the last 30 years has really only been one position and it isnt LB. The reality is the QB position is really the most important part of the team, at least judging by the last 30-40 years.

I personally think ONE Drew Brees contract (or Flacco or Luck etc) can pay for 3 KEY players on a defense. Here is a list of the highest paid players in the NFL. Von Miller (I think) is the highest paid NON QB. He comes in at 17th highest paid player.

http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000809063

I do not have a problem with paying Von Miller, cause while it causes some problems, an effective EDGE rusher is probably the next most valuable commodity on an NFL team. I mentioned this before how Tom Brady is the 17th highest paid QB. See any advantage that is for the Pats over the league?

I really do not see any real answer here. Heck, I am not even sure why we get all excited during each draft. IF a team is good in the draft and they land 4 quality players in a draft, well at least 2 of them will be gone 4 years later. Reference Travathan and Malik Jackson. Those are just a few examples. What are we really hoping for? For the Broncos to draft really well only to be penalized (essentially penalized) for drafting and developing players?

We would all be giddy if the Broncos signed Andrew Luck. Well, if it is so imperative to have a franchise QB over anything else, and if Luck is sooooo good, why hasnt he been to a super bowl? I think he has thrown 16 ints in the play offs. Now, the first thing EVERYONE SAYS is the Colts cannot get a good enough team around him. He demands huge money. It is not really mystery why that is a hard thing to do. When is the last time Drew Brees has been to the play offs? He gets around 30 mil a year. Wonder why they cannot get a defense?

BTW, that is a great example of how a great defense is actually more valuable than a franchise QB. We all lived through 2008. That had to be the worst defense we have ever seen in Denver. Broncos number 2 in offense, 8 and 8 season.


Would we rather have Andrew Luck if that meant the Broncos could not have Von Miller, Talib and Chris Harris? Not me. A solid defense always gives a team a chance. A solid defense is the common denominator with every SB winning team.

[Broncoknight30]

Considering how much Von gets paid on this team shouldnt he be the guy that motivates this club? It certainly isnt going to come from any of the QB's we have. :lol:

I actually think Peko is a pretty good leader on the defense. He is a veteran, and he plays with really high energy. I think he is a good presence on the defense. I really do. Doesn't hurt that is he also doing an outstanding job against the run.

[Northman]

I actually think Peko is a pretty good leader on the defense. He is a veteran, and he plays with really high energy. I think he is a good presence on the defense. I really do. Doesn't hurt that is he also doing an outstanding job against the run.

Yea, i get that. I think Wolfe is somewhat of a leader as well but those guys arent getting paid the kind of cash that Von is. Now granted, none of them have his talent either but when it comes to your franchise player (lets face it, Von is that guy for Denver) i would expect him to be the driving force for the team. For years Ray Lewis was that guy for Bmore and even when the team lost other players due to FA he was able to maintain a high level of competitiveness and inspiration with the Ravens defense. Denver's defense is still very good but i think i would like to see more from Von in terms of lighting a fire under his teammates including the offense. Something tells me that VJ isnt doing that because if he is im not seeing it translate on the field. If something doesnt change with the offense its going to bring a divide in the lockerroom. Something has simply got to give and somebody other than Wolfe needs to step up and start getting these guys motivated again.

[Broncoknight30]

Yea, i get that. I think Wolfe is somewhat of a leader as well but those guys arent getting paid the kind of cash that Von is. Now granted, none of them have his talent either but when it comes to your franchise player (lets face it, Von is that guy for Denver) i would expect him to be the driving force for the team. For years Ray Lewis was that guy for Bmore and even when the team lost other players due to FA he was able to maintain a high level of competitiveness and inspiration with the Ravens defense. Denver's defense is still very good but i think i would like to see more from Von in terms of lighting a fire under his teammates including the offense. Something tells me that VJ isnt doing that because if he is im not seeing it translate on the field. If something doesnt change with the offense its going to bring a divide in the lockerroom. Something has simply got to give and somebody other than Wolfe needs to step up and start getting these guys motivated again.
The thing about effective leaders is they are naturally that way. Meaning, if Von Miller started being something he isn't, that really does not work either. Von Miller does his job. Trust me. That is more valuable than any other perceived leadership a player shows or doesn't show. \

The defense right now is not the problem. Yes, we wish they would have more turnovers or higher rate of sacks. The defense is essentially doing quite well. Take away that pick 6 Sunday, and the defense is actually giving up less points than they gave up in 2015 and 2016. They are number 1 in total defense. They are number 1 against the rush. Now, the Giants did have good rushing numbers, but that is largely due a few gashes. One of them for 47 yards. That was just a very good trap call and they caught Denver in the proper stunt to execute it. That happens. That had nothing to do with the lack of talent on the defense.

[Tbolt]

They had the luxury of paying Von because we didn't have to pay a QB, and that cap money had to go somewhere. There haven't been any FA options either the last couple of years. They sniffed around Kap and Romo, neither would have brought what Manning did.

They just need to play Sloter...Wait...

I think Broz gets the nod at some point. 1. Elway seems to love him some giraffe. 2. I don't think Elway has ever been invested in Siemian.

[Shazam!]

It just boggles the mind how the OLine remains so bad and nothing they throw at it seems to fix it. The same problem with multiple Coaches. Is it technique? Coaching? Talent? Scheme?

If Denver had an even Average OLine, omg

[NightTrainLayne]

The same problem with multiple Coaches. Is it technique? Coaching? Talent? Scheme?


What if the problem is the "multiple coaches".

New staffs, new schemes, and resulting new talent every other year for God knows how long.

Shanny's defenses were terrible for so long, and maybe not coincidentally, he changed coordinators every year for seasons on end.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

It's probably some of both, but I would advocate that we try to keep the same staff and schemes on the offensive side of the ball for longer than 2 seasons if we want to develop our offensive draft picks which presumably were picked at the time to fit the scheme being coached.

[Broncoknight30]

It just boggles the mind how the OLine remains so bad and nothing they throw at it seems to fix it. The same problem with multiple Coaches. Is it technique? Coaching? Talent? Scheme?

If Denver had an even Average OLine, omg

People are saying that a lot, but I think the OL has improved. They ran he ball quite well through the first quarter of the season. Leary is an absolute improvement and Bolles is a solid pick. The RT position, may very well be the same as last year. I personally don't think it is worse.

If you notice too, around the league, there seems to be a lack of quality line play. Many veterans are pointing to the new CBA and the lack of practice.

Kind of brings me to the sad state of affairs for American football in this country. I do not think I am alone in saying we are seeing the beginning of the end of the sport. I just wonder after tackle football is banned in this country (it will start and is already starting with HS football), what sport will be next. Perhaps those other sports that are prone to head injuries and concussions won't be attacked by the lawyers.

Hockey?

[Cugel]

The only thing to hope for is some magic carpet ride like 2015. Which, quite frankly is pretty unrealistic. Looking back at that season (just looked that schedule), trying not to use the word "luck" but there were like 8 wins that could have went the other way if the ball bounced the other way. Not being literal, but you know what I mean.

I guess we have to hope for that.

We sure do! :thumbs:

Realistically, no team that won like the 2015 Broncos ever repeated. And it only ever happened about 1 time every 10 years, never to the same team twice.

The '86 Bears defense was statistically better than the SB Shuffle '85 squad, and they still had a ton of Pro-Bowl or Hall of Fame talent, but they never won anything again. Nor did the 2001 Ravens, or the 2003 Bucs who didn't even make the playoffs the next season - like the 2016 Broncos.

To win repeatedly you need an elite QB like Manning, Eli Manning, Brees, Rogers, Brady, Roethlisberger. It's not an accident that those 6 QBs have a combined 13 SB wins. And few other QBs have won even once in the last 15 years: Russell Wilson, Joe Flacco. That's it:


Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD
Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 46: Eli Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 47: Joe Flacco (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 48: Russell Wilson (Malcolm Smith), 2TDs
Super Bowl 49: Tom Brady (MVP), 4TDs
Super Bowl 50: Peyton Manning (Von Miller), 0TDs
Super Bowl 51: Tom Brady (MVP), 2TDs

You'll notice the monotonous repetitive nature of that list. It's getting so that, outside of historically great defenses like the 2015 Broncos or 2000 Ravens, it's the same QBs every year. I'm getting so tired of seeing Brady hoist the Lombardi Trophy every damn year!

[Rick]

The problem with moving on from TS is as other's have mentioned, who do you move to?

I love the idea of Lynch stepping up but despite his great physical traits, he is not getting the mental aspect at all.

At this point, unless we are out of the hunt, I don't see any benefit to Lynch playing. The light's are just not on with him.

[7DnBrnc53]

People are saying that a lot, but I think the OL has improved. They ran he ball quite well through the first quarter of the season. Leary is an absolute improvement and Bolles is a solid pick. The RT position, may very well be the same as last year. I personally don't think it is worse.

If you notice too, around the league, there seems to be a lack of quality line play. Many veterans are pointing to the new CBA and the lack of practice.

Kind of brings me to the sad state of affairs for American football in this country. I do not think I am alone in saying we are seeing the beginning of the end of the sport. I just wonder after tackle football is banned in this country (it will start and is already starting with HS football), what sport will be next. Perhaps those other sports that are prone to head injuries and concussions won't be attacked by the lawyers.

Hockey?

Hockey doesn't have to be played with the hitting and violence that football has. Also, I think that it would be hypocritical to go after hockey and football and ignore things like extreme sports and downhill skiing (where you can die that day if something goes wrong).

[Broncoknight30]

Hockey doesn't have to be played with the hitting and violence that football has. Also, I think that it would be hypocritical to go after hockey and football and ignore things like extreme sports and downhill skiing (where you can die that day if something goes wrong).

Hockey is quite violent. No, not collisions on every play, but during an 82 game season the cumulative effects must be there.

Been to a handful of hockey games and it is violent. The speed is what stood to me in person. To think that goalies didn't even wear helmets until the 80s is crazy to me.


I guess my point is there are all sorts of sports that are prone to head injuries. It seems to me that football gets ALL of the focus.


I do think the game will eventually be banned. As retired players die all of their brains will be studied. They will find things in all of them. Eventually cities will ban the sport for HS kids. Once those dominoes fall, that will be it.

There are already cities and schools banning it.

[7DnBrnc53]

Hockey is quite violent. No, not collisions on every play, but during an 82 game season the cumulative effects must be there.

Been to a handful of hockey games and it is violent. The speed is what stood to me in person. To think that goalies didn't even wear helmets until the 80s is crazy to me.


I guess my point is there are all sorts of sports that are prone to head injuries. It seems to me that football gets ALL of the focus.


I do think the game will eventually be banned. As retired players die all of their brains will be studied. They will find things in all of them. Eventually cities will ban the sport for HS kids. Once those dominoes fall, that will be it.

There are already cities and schools banning it.

Goalies wore masks in the 70's. It was a lot of the players back then that weren't wearing helmets (which is crazy).

And, while hockey is violent, it can do without it more than football can.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Knowing the alternatives probably aren’t any better, I think Siemian has a pretty long leash.

[BroncoWave]

so, go with brock?


lol @ the thought of them playing kelly this year out of anything besides sheer desperation. . . i could see lynch, especially if one of the guys ahead of him gets hurt. . . he at least got a whole off-season splitting reps with the ones, and has a BIT of experience. . . i'm fairly sure they would sign TJ yates or christian frickin' ponder before they would put kelly in a game this year. . . hell, sloter looked great in pre-season action, and they trusted him to be be the backup so much they cut him and brought back the brosweiler. . . kelly is about five inches shorter, and totally lacks sloter's maturity and intangibles. . . they aren't running him out there this year. . . it's easy for fans to say "eff it, let's start throwing shit against the wall to see if something sticks," but this is elway and VJ's job-- that kind of approach is nowhere to be found in their playbook. . .

if trevor falters in the coming weeks, it will almost certainly be osweiler replacing him. . . and if he sucks, and we're out of it, then we will likely go to lynch. . . kelly's not in play this year outside of some crazy set of circumstances. . .

Pretty much 100% this. Trotting out Kelly this year would be 100% idiocy. There is as good of a chance as us signing and starting Tebow this year as us benching a healthy TS for Kelly.

And it would (or should at least) definitely be Oz to come in if we were to bench TS. Lynch just ain't ready and bringing him in would basically be punting this season. Oz has experience in this system, has played with DT/Sanders/CJ/Green, and has shown he can be competent as a member of the Broncos at least. He is the only other viable option to start for us any time soon if a switch were to be made.

I'll say this again though, the top of the NFL is weak this year. Any of 15 teams could probably get hot and win a title this year. I'm not in favor of punting this season just to "see what we have" whatsoever. We still have a defense good enough to get hot and win a title like in 15. It would be a shame to throw that away just to throw other QBs against the wall and see what sticks.

TS sucks, but he's probably the best of a bunch of bad options right now.

[DenBronx]

We suck so bad at the QB position. Not a fan of any of them as players. This team is in trouble if we don't make a trade. That's really all I have to say.

And I agree with you Wave. The NFL is really weak this season. Anyone could win it so it stings even more not having a competent QB.

[BroncoWave]

We suck so bad at the QB position. Not a fan of any of them as players. This team is in trouble if we don't make a trade. That's really all I have to say.

And I agree with you Wave. The NFL is really weak this season. Anyone could win it so it stings even more not having a competent QB.

I don't think anyone is gonna trade their QB midseason, just gotta ride it out with what we have.

The only thing keeping me positive is that Manning was awful in 2015 and we still found a way to win it all. The odds are against that happening again, but if we can just sneak into the playoffs, you never know what could happen.

[Freyaka]

I don't think anyone is gonna trade their QB midseason, just gotta ride it out with what we have.

The only thing keeping me positive is that Manning was awful in 2015 and we still found a way to win it all. The odds are against that happening again, but if we can just sneak into the playoffs, you never know what could happen.

The only team that might is the Vikings. They could in theory part with one once Teddy B comes back.

[Nomad]

Unless Trevor gets hurt, I don't see VJ benching him. Maybe the Giants game was his turning point.....one can hope. Get touchdowns #13.

[BrockLobster]

The only team that might is the Vikings. They could in theory part with one once Teddy B comes back.

I don't think they can trust Bridgewater's knee to hold out and considering Bradford is a gimp they are going to need to keep Keenum. I watched a bit of Keenum last year and he was pretty bad. It looks like the Vikings offensive system might suit him with the way he has been playing. Both he and Bradford aren't going to hurt teams down the field so the offense is built around those short/intermediate throws. Even their receivers in Diggs/Thielen look to be better running those routes. I think if we were going to trade for someone we need a QB that can push the ball down field. When you have DT and Sanders who can burn a QB with a cannon will help the offense flow better in the long run. It might be worth looking at someone like Taylor in the off-season since he will be a FA and the Bills don't look intent on keeping him.

[Freyaka]

Unless Trevor gets hurt, I don't see VJ benching him. Maybe the Giants game was his turning point.....one can hope. Get touchdowns #13.

I mean there is only so much worse you can get from there isn't there? Hopefully it's all uphill from here by default.

[Krugan]

This thread is full of over reaction and utter nonsense.

Trades mid season, kid with no reps, Kid who has had reps but looks more lost then the kid starting, To Tall Os.

Its not as bad as most want to make it, but not as good as it should be.

[honz]

long. . . the other options suck worse. . . i think we'll go hard after a good vet next year if trev doesn't improve significantly. . .

Kirk Cousins anyone???

[Rick]

Kirk Cousins anyone???

No one is outbidding SF for him.

[Slick]

Yeah, Cousins is going to get 30 mil a year. Denver can't pay that and field a defense.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I have to confess, when Brock came in the other day I was hoping he would finish the game.

[wayninja]

This thread is full of over reaction and utter nonsense.

Trades mid season, kid with no reps, Kid who has had reps but looks more lost then the kid starting, To Tall Os.

Its not as bad as most want to make it, but not as good as it should be.

I agree. All of that is nonsense when Tebow is still available. Did I mention that as an option yet?

[weazel]

Joe said Siemiens leash is 7 inches and tastes like rainbows

[Freyaka]

I have to confess, when Brock came in the other day I was hoping he would finish the game.

He looked like his same goofy uncoordinated self out there though. Like even when completed a pass it was as awkward.

[Cugel]

Pretty much 100% this. Trotting out Kelly this year would be 100% idiocy. There is as good of a chance as us signing and starting Tebow this year as us benching a healthy TS for Kelly.

And it would (or should at least) definitely be Oz to come in if we were to bench TS. Lynch just ain't ready and bringing him in would basically be punting this season. Oz has experience in this system, has played with DT/Sanders/CJ/Green, and has shown he can be competent as a member of the Broncos at least. He is the only other viable option to start for us any time soon if a switch were to be made.

I'll say this again though, the top of the NFL is weak this year. Any of 15 teams could probably get hot and win a title this year. I'm not in favor of punting this season just to "see what we have" whatsoever. We still have a defense good enough to get hot and win a title like in 15. It would be a shame to throw that away just to throw other QBs against the wall and see what sticks.

TS sucks, but he's probably the best of a bunch of bad options right now.

It seems strange there could be fans who doubt this. Obviously Chad Kelly is an intriguing college QB who has never even participated in a training camp or practice, let alone a regular season NFL game. Putting him in would only to watch him be devoured Chocolate covered Funyums be totally insane.

Obviously we've seen Paxton fail. We saw Brock fail in Houston and get run out of Cleveland. Just because Trevor isn't any good doesn't mean these QBs aren't worse!

It's just a failure of imagination to think things couldn't get instantly worse with one of those QBs in there. Trevor at least has had some decent performances. But, Osweiler has MORE experience than Trevor and he's gotten worse and worse as his career continues.

[Dreadnought]

This thread is full of over reaction and utter nonsense.

Trades mid season, kid with no reps, Kid who has had reps but looks more lost then the kid starting, To Tall Os.

Its not as bad as most want to make it, but not as good as it should be.

I can't improve on this

[Shazam!]

I just want to clarify: I wasnt pining to throw Kelly in games THIS SEASON. I am talking about an option in 2018 and beyond. Because if Trevor isn't the guy just see if its a viable option for the future.

[arapaho2]

I thought Ward was more of a 2017 cash thing.

I think his presence is desperately missed and this 2017 defense is a shell in large part because of the leadership and continuity void. Plus Simmons ain't yet NFZ and might never be. As good as he is claimed to be. Might even be better than Ward but the chemistry ain't right.

how is this defense a shell of its former self

in 2015 the passing defense gave up 199.6 ypg
in 2016 the passing defense gave up 185.8 ypg
in 2017 the passing defense is giving up 191.6 ypg

2016 /2015 the passing defense average 192 yards per game...so how is 191 ypg a shell ?

[Broncoknight30]

how is this defense a shell of its former self

in 2015 the passing defense gave up 199.6 ypg
in 2016 the passing defense gave up 185.8 ypg
in 2017 the passing defense is giving up 191.6 ypg

2016 /2015 the passing defense average 192 yards per game...so how is 191 ypg a shell ?

I think he was referring to the fact that defense this year is ranked in the lower half of the league in sacks and turnovers. Which is true, but when the defense is ranked number 1 in the league, it can hardly be a shell. It more than just a little effective.

The sobering fact is we need to accept the notion that Siemian is the best QB on the roster. Can we have unrealistic hope that Lynch will have a wonderful transformation into something he has not been? Well we are fans, and that is what we do.

Kelly is not going to be it either. It's Siemian. Yeah, Siemian.

[Cugel]

I just want to clarify: I wasnt pining to throw Kelly in games THIS SEASON. I am talking about an option in 2018 and beyond. Because if Trevor isn't the guy just see if its a viable option for the future.

Obviously they have Kelly under contract, so they can take a look at him in 2018. Whether there is a starting competition or not depends on s:

1. Whether Trevor comes around and starts looking like a long-term starter, unlike today.
2. IF Trevor flames out, whether Elway decides to go get a veteran QB or go with Paxton, Osweiler and Kelly and possibly a draft pick.
3. IF Trevor flames out, and the Broncos decide to go all in on a FA QB like Kirk Cousins then they probably keep Kelly and Paxton cause they're cheap as backups. But, obviously they wouldn't be paying Kirk Cousins $25M and have a competition, not that Brock, Paxton and Chad could possibly win such a competition.

The argument in favour of that course would be that the defense is ageing and they're only going to have Aqib Talib for so long. Over the next couple years the defense is likely to decline - so if you want to capitalize on the great defense before the SB window closes, then a rookie is useless.

IF they either draft a rookie QB or go to Chad Kelly or Paxton, it will take too long for that QB to develop, like about 3 years which means your QB is SB ready sometime in 2020 or so. Much too late.

That's why they were interested in Tony Romo (for the right price), and why they might be interested in a veteran QB next season.

I don't think the Broncos QB of the future is currently on the roster at all.

[Shazam!]

I just want to clarify: I wasnt pining to throw Kelly in games THIS SEASON. I am talking about an option in 2018 and beyond. Because if Trevor isn't the guy just see if its a viable option for the future.

Obviously they have Kelly under contract, so they can take a look at him in 2018. Whether there is a starting competition or not depends on s:

1. Whether Trevor comes around and starts looking like a long-term starter, unlike today.
2. IF Trevor flames out, whether Elway decides to go get a veteran QB or go with Paxton, Osweiler and Kelly and possibly a draft pick.
3. IF Trevor flames out, and the Broncos decide to go all in on a FA QB like Kirk Cousins then they probably keep Kelly and Paxton cause they're cheap as backups. But, obviously they wouldn't be paying Kirk Cousins $25M and have a competition, not that Brock, Paxton and Chad could possibly win such a competition.

The argument in favour of that course would be that the defense is ageing and they're only going to have Aqib Talib for so long. Over the next couple years the defense is likely to decline - so if you want to capitalize on the great defense before the SB window closes, then a rookie is useless.

IF they either draft a rookie QB or go to Chad Kelly or Paxton, it will take too long for that QB to develop, like about 3 years which means your QB is SB ready sometime in 2020 or so. Much too late.

That's why they were interested in Tony Romo (for the right price), and why they might be interested in a veteran QB next season.

I don't think the Broncos QB of the future is currently on the roster at all.

I agree with the Lynch take. Too bad they couldn't find a suitor for a trade.

[BroncoWave]

The lack of sacks and turnovers on defense is a good point. It's great to be #1 in yards, but with our limited offense, we really need the defense to either score themselves or at least give us really short fields to work with. We had a lot of that in 2015, not so much this year.

[Valar Morghulis]

Shane Ray should make a difference

[Freyaka]

The lack of sacks and turnovers on defense is a good point. It's great to be #1 in yards, but with our limited offense, we really need the defense to either score themselves or at least give us really short fields to work with. We had a lot of that in 2015, not so much this year.

The sacks and turnovers go hand in hand, if we start getting to the QB better, the QB starts making stupid decisions. Hopefully Shane Ray will be the kick in the nuts this team needs.

[tripp]

I can't say this enough, I blame the coaches more than the players. Awful game plan against the Giants. We have a rookie HC, and a rookie DC..

[Cugel]

No one is outbidding SF for him.

Probably not. But, does he want to play for SF and go 6-10? I suppose so if they offer him $30M which could happen. I think Elway will kick the tires on Cousins, but I don't think the Broncos will be the highest bidder.

Players would take less money to come and play with Peyton, but they aren't willing to take less to come here now. This offseason Elway tried to talk Calais Campbell into coming here for about $2M less a year than Jacksonville offered. Campbell politely refused. And that is going to be the future - guys want to be paid.

[Cugel]

I agree with the Lynch take. Too bad they couldn't find a suitor for a trade.

They weren't looking for a trade. After all, what happens if Trevor flames out by throwing wild picks like he did the last 2 games, AND Brock comes in and plays like he did to get benched in Houston, AND Paxton is healthy?

Remember that after the Chargers game the Broncos play on the road at the Chiefs and Eagles, the two best teams in the NFL right now, and then home against the Patriots. Lose this winnable game and they could easily wind up 3-6. Even with a win, they're likely to lose at least 2 of the next 3 and possibly they have no chance in all three.

I'd write up the Eagles game right now as a loss for instance. But, then they've got 5 games against the Raiders, Dolphins, Jets, and Colts, all winnable. They need to survive the next 4 weeks though.

[DT88TheGreat]

I'm blaming play calling/coaching more than Siemian. I'm sorry but the play calls were horrible Sunday night. Siemian doesn't go from 4 TD's week 1, to a pick 6, INT, and 1 (garbage time) TD in week 5 without the play calling changing. Not defending Siemian at all, and to be honest, I would've been OK with Oz playing the 2nd half. We needed some sort of shock to get us back into the game, and I found Siemian wasn't on his A game that night.

Red zone is awful too, and what excuse is there when you had 2 weeks to figure out the red zone issues, and still fail miserably in the RZ.

CJ Anderson is who I thought he was, a mediocre RB at best. Jamaal Charles is still good, and needs more carries IMO.

Sometimes when it's not your night, it's not your night. It was evident Sunday night. But to be fair, we looked lethargic against the Raiders in the 2nd half, and we looked brutal against the Bills.

What has changed so much from the first 2 weeks, to now?

So the bengals game last year and then sucking the rest of the way was on coaching, this year New staff and the good game vs cowboys and then sucking again is on the coaching again... I swear some of you just love this guy so much that you'll lie to yourselves lol.

[wayninja]

He just needs more reps in practice.

[Freyaka]

So... Sounds like ts leash it's not very limited at all. Which sucks...

[Freyaka]

So the bengals game last year and then sucking the rest of the way was on coaching, this year New staff and the good game vs cowboys and then sucking again is on the coaching again... I swear some of you just love this guy so much that you'll lie to yourselves lol.

Hey go gloat somewhere else... No one cares.

[tripp]

So the bengals game last year and then sucking the rest of the way was on coaching, this year New staff and the good game vs cowboys and then sucking again is on the coaching again... I swear some of you just love this guy so much that you'll lie to yourselves lol.

Literally just posted a thread saying how I want Brock to play next week..

[Nomad]

I believe everyone should accept the fact that Siemian will not be benched. I'm sure Osweiler is here only in terms of Siemian being hurt. Lynch & Kelly are still hurt/recovering.

[Freyaka]

Literally just posted a thread saying how I want Brock to play next week..

I'm about as tired of that ass clown of a poster as I am Trevor at this point, and that's pretty damn tired.

[ShaneFalco]

Siemian has a longer leash then i do with broncos forums mods.

[wayninja]

Well... that's sorta as it should be.

[Northman]

I believe everyone should accept the fact that Siemian will not be benched. I'm sure Osweiler is here only in terms of Siemian being hurt. Lynch & Kelly are still hurt/recovering.

Screw that, unlike the offense and coaching staff im going down kicking and screaming.

[Shazam!]

This is why i say soon we gotta see what Kelly AND Lynch have to offer, this is for 2018 and beyond, because this Season is lost. BUT: I don't care if we have a 2012 Manning back there, NO QB could be productive in this offense with their proetection scheme. Its a recipe for disaster.

[NightTerror218]

This is why i say soon we gotta see what Kelly AND Lynch have to offer, this is for 2018 and beyond, because this Season is lost. BUT: I don't care if we have a 2012 Manning back there, NO QB could be productive in this offense with their proetection scheme. Its a recipe for disaster.

But your QB has to be able to audible to correct play and be able to beat the blitz and make them not load box with deep throws.

[VonDoom]

This is why i say soon we gotta see what Kelly AND Lynch have to offer, this is for 2018 and beyond, because this Season is lost. BUT: I don't care if we have a 2012 Manning back there, NO QB could be productive in this offense with their proetection scheme. Its a recipe for disaster.

I get this sneaking suspicion that Lynch isn't going to be ready to play at all this year (kind of like a low grade Andrew Luck situation). Which makes it all the more baffling that he wasn't put on IR, instead of eating up a roster spot. If he's every healthy, though, he should play so we can all see with our eyes again that he sucks. Interested in Kelly too, though again, I'm not sure he'll be healthy enough (and ready enough in terms of learning the playbook) to be ready to go this year.

[Northman]

https://scontent.fphl2-3.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22555004_1497937836956653_5545364771968021581_n.jp g?oh=4290e20f9348ab80beef664db134cddf&oe=5A64F573

[wayninja]

Awesome. That means that at some point we sign Tebow to come in to replace TS. That should be fun.

[Northman]

Awesome. That means that at some point we sign Tebow to come in to replace TS. That should be fun.

At least the fans would be excited if that happened even if we still didnt win any games. lmao

[VonDoom]

At least the fans would be excited if that happened even if we still didnt win any games. lmao

Speak for yourself. About 2% of the fans would be happy, because they're delusional.

[wayninja]

Well... i don't recall getting shut out with Teebs, but sure, I'm delusional. I'd rather that, than whatever this is.

I mean, if we are going to have someone who can't throw, he should at least be able to run and take a hit.

[Davii]

Siemian has a longer leash then i do with broncos forums mods.

That's because he also brings more to the team.

[ShaneFalco]

Even tebow was never shut out as a Bronco

[ShaneFalco]

With Cutler and Palmer getting hurt.

We better sign timothy quick!

[Cugel]

Well... i don't recall getting shut out with Teebs, but sure, I'm delusional. I'd rather that, than whatever this is.

I mean, if we are going to have someone who can't throw, he should at least be able to run and take a hit.

You are TOTALLY, and ABSOLUTELY delusional. Yes.

This isn't 2011. Tebow today, 3 years out of football and not even in real football condition is not Tebow in 2011. Fans who are really, really stupid imagine that time somehow freezes and the player they remember from 6 freakin' years ago could come back and it would somehow, magically be the same.

And the OL today is NOT the OL of 2011 that had a Pro-Bowl caliber LT in Ryan Clady either. Plus Orlando Franklin was vastly superior to any Broncos T today (even though he wasn't great).

Tebow sucked in 2012 and played his way off the Jets and Eagles. NOT ONE TEAM in the NFL wants him at all today. None. Just a few idiot fan-boys who just can't get over the fact that their Aryan Jesus was a total bust want him back. And make up specious arguments like "well, it can't be any worse."

The Broncos are not going from bad to worse just because a few fools are Jonesing for their tin hero.

[VonDoom]

With Cutler and Palmer getting hurt.

We better sign timothy quick!

He hasn't been on a regular season roster in five years. Better hurry before someone snatches him up!

[wayninja]

You are TOTALLY, and ABSOLUTELY delusional. Yes.

This isn't 2011. Tebow today, 3 years out of football and not even in real football condition is not Tebow in 2011. Fans who are really, really stupid imagine that time somehow freezes and the player they remember from 6 freakin' years ago could come back and it would somehow, magically be the same.

And the OL today is NOT the OL of 2011 that had a Pro-Bowl caliber LT in Ryan Clady either. Plus Orlando Franklin was vastly superior to any Broncos T today (even though he wasn't great).

Tebow sucked in 2012 and played his way off the Jets and Eagles. NOT ONE TEAM in the NFL wants him at all today. None. Just a few idiot fan-boys who just can't get over the fact that their Aryan Jesus was a total bust want him back. And make up specious arguments like "well, it can't be any worse."

The Broncos are not going from bad to worse just because a few fools are Jonesing for their tin hero.

Understand sarcasm better.

I certainly don't want to do any worse than 0 points.

[Cugel]

Understand sarcasm better.

I certainly don't want to do any worse than 0 points.

OK. But, the zero points crap isn't by any means the bottom. The team will continue to suck, long after they change QBs.

It is inevitable that VJ will have no choice but to start Osweiler within the next month at the latest, and it could be sooner than that if the deterioration continues or Trevor gets even more hurt, which is likely.

We will then see how much worse it can get.

I just get pissed off at fans who can't use their brains (Not pointing at you). There is NO new QB coming to Denver this season, and it wouldn't help if there was. Asking for Tebow is just the extra dose of insanity that I just can't stand.

[VonDoom]

https://twitter.com/NFL_Stats/status/922568696110788608

[wayninja]

OK. But, the zero points crap isn't by any means the bottom. The team will continue to suck, long after they change QBs.

It's not the bottom? It is for me. I don't give a shit how bad the offense looks, how many turnovers etc. 0 points is 0 points.


It is inevitable that VJ will have no choice but to start Osweiler within the next month at the latest, and it could be sooner than that if the deterioration continues or Trevor gets even more hurt, which is likely.

We will then see how much worse it can get.

I guess.... I still just don't see how it can be any worse than 0. I'm not sure what you are imagining? Super horrible QB play results in 0 points. So, that's what we already have.


I just get pissed off at fans who can't use their brains (Not pointing at you). There is NO new QB coming to Denver this season, and it wouldn't help if there was. Asking for Tebow is just the extra dose of insanity that I just can't stand.

I wouldn't mind it one bit if they signed tebow. I understand how crazy that sounds, and I'm ok with that. I also understand that we have a better chance of re-signing Manning.

[Freyaka]

It's not the bottom? It is for me. I don't give a shit how bad the offense looks, how many turnovers etc. 0 points is 0 points.



I guess.... I still just don't see how it can be any worse than 0. I'm not sure what you are imagining? Super horrible QB play results in 0 points. So, that's what we already have.



I wouldn't mind it one bit if they signed tebow. I understand how crazy that sounds, and I'm ok with that. I also understand that we have a better chance of re-signing Manning.

I mean it can get worse. We could have had 52 hung on us to go with the goose egg due to turnovers...It can always get worse.

[wayninja]

I mean it can get worse. We could have had 52 hung on us to go with the goose egg due to turnovers...It can always get worse.

I feel like that's splitting hairs. If you can't score, you have no chance to win any game.

[NightTerror218]

Considence.....DT and Sanders voice how they are not getting enough targets.

Next two games DT targets are up and rushing attempts and down.

Is Siemian weak and falling to pressure of high profile teammates that he is staring them down amd forcing,it,to them? Could this pressure cause his regress the last 2 games that he feels,he needs to,get the high profile guys more passes?

[wayninja]

Exactly! Sanders didn't get a single target against the Chargers!

[Dreadnought]

Here is I think the unfortunate truth.

Siemian has played like crap for two weeks, and barely adequate the two weeks prior to that. That is unfortunate, in the its in our interest to have had TS bloom into a winning long term solution. Probably won't happen at this rate. And here's the thing - there is no one else available who is any good. And we are unlikely to sign anyone any good next year either. And we have other shit needs fixing without chasing our tails wasting more #1 picks on QB's. Hell, there are very few QB's in the NFL worth a shit and under the age of 35. Russell Wilson I guess. Matt Ryan. Matthew Stafford maybe. Dak Prescott? Maybe. Someday, but I'm not convinced.

I blame the style of football played at the collegiate level nowadays, which makes incoming college QB's even less ready to play early on than they used to be.

So I have no idea what the solution is, but I am sure that pushing the panic button ain't it. I think you have to give a young QB a few years. Alex Smith eventually became a very good QB after sucking pretty badly for a good chunk of his career after all

[wayninja]

That's true that Alex Smith did seem to turn the corner. But it took him what, 3 teams to find decent footing? Most QB's simply aren't given that much opportunity, whether or not it would end up paying off. The incoming, young QB's are too tempting to take a shot on than to spend "years" trying to groom a QB into playing shape.

And let's be honest, the Broncos have a VERY small window of patience at the position. The last time we had a QB start more than 4 seasons, was our current Presi-GM.

Also. Hit the panic button with us. It's fun!

[NightTerror218]

I dont think lynch should be written off. He was projected to,need 2 to 3 years to develop. And coaching staff did him no favors last year. But I think before he is completely written off he need more live action. He was neck and neck with Siemian until preseason. I want to see him with more extrnded luve action of more than 1 start.

[Dreadnought]

...
And let's be honest, the Broncos have a VERY small window of patience at the position. The last time we had a QB start more than 4 seasons, was our current Presi-GM.

Also. Hit the panic button with us. It's fun!

Having a very small window of patience has made the Cleveland Browns what they are today. That and general mismanagement on an epic scale, but still

[Freyaka]

I dont tjinknlynvh should be written off. He was projected to,need 2 to 3 years to develop. And coaching staff did him no favors last year. But I think before he is completely written off he need more live action. He was neck and neck with Siemian until preseason. I want to see him with more extrnded luve action of more than 1 start.

covfefe

[wayninja]

Don't make fun, he has a speech to text impediment.

[Freyaka]

Don't make fun, he has a speech to text impediment.

I laughed way harder (at work) than I should have at that....

[NightTerror218]

I think you can have like 20 games. 1 season plus the start of next season to show improvement. Key is you have to show improvement. Making same mistakes regressing is not what it takes to stick with a QB. If it was just 2 bad games that is 1 think but this is going back to last season when you have have a QB who is not clutch who can't make a comeback and can't carry a team.

[NightTerror218]

I laughed way harder (at work) than I should have at that....

At work and don't proof read on small screen

[Krugan]

the no patience for anything fan base!

Go instant gratification...

Sigh, good thing it wasnt always this way, or the HoF would be way different.

[spikerman]

the no patience for anything fan base!

Go instant gratification...

Sigh, good thing it wasnt always this way, or the HoF would be way different.
This offense has been shit for three years. I don’t consider the fan base impatient. Yes, the team was so good defensively that that they still won a Super Bowl but that doesn’t mean the offense wasn’t terrible. This team has been one of the worst in the league offensively for long enough that I think we should be able vent without the fan police coming out in force.

[wayninja]

the no patience for anything fan base!

Go instant gratification...

Sigh, good thing it wasnt always this way, or the HoF would be way different.

instant? really?

It's crazy to me that the fact that we scored 0 points for the FIRST TIME IN 25 YEARS has not sunk in for some. And this isn't a fluke game. The fluke game here was the cowboys.

[Krugan]

This offense has been shit for three years. I don’t consider the fan base impatient. Yes, the team was so good defensively that that they still won a Super Bowl but that doesn’t mean the offense wasn’t terrible. This team has been one of the worst in the league offensively for long enough that I think we should be able vent without the fan police coming out in force.

First off im not claiming its jsut broncos fans, its the whole league. Im not a fan police by any means, just an observation that there is NO patience for development anymore.

2nd, in three years we have seen multiple starters and all have had mixed success, so what is the constant?

[Krugan]

instant? really?

It's crazy to me that the fact that we scored 0 points for the FIRST TIME IN 25 YEARS has not sunk in for some. And this isn't a fluke game. The fluke game here was the cowboys.

Sigh, people just cant slow down and even think about the time it has taken many QB's to become quality. And i dont give a hoot if TS is that guy or not, it just cant be a revolving door, at some point the growing pains are going to have to be accepted....

[Broncoknight30]

the no patience for anything fan base!

Go instant gratification...

Sigh, good thing it wasnt always this way, or the HoF would be way different.

No patience? I think you fail to fully understand that this is a championship organization that has the number one defense that has PROVEN can win it.

Not easy to keep that unit together and we are in the prime of Von Millers career. Not asking for a lot. Not 30 points a game. No, if they average 23 points, which is average, this team wins. Has a real chance.

This TREND as some of us saw has been there the entire season and this offense has averaged about 10 points a game over the last four games.

This is not a slapdick Browns organization. There are many reasons why we are impatient. Not to mention how much longer we are going to even enjoy football in this country. That is a different topic.

[spikerman]

First off im not claiming its jsut broncos fans, its the whole league. Im not a fan police by any means, just an observation that there is NO patience for development anymore.

2nd, in three years we have seen multiple starters and all have had mixed success, so what is the constant?

A terrible offense.

[Krugan]

No patience? I think you fail to fully understand that this is a championship organization that has the number one defense that has PROVEN can win it.

Not easy to keep that unit together and we are in the prime of Vin Millers career. Not asking for a lot. Not 30 points a game. No, if they average 23 points, which is average, this team wins. Has a real chance.

This TREND as some of us saw has been there the entire season and this offense has averaged about 10 points a game over the last four games.

This is not a slapdick Browns organization. There are many reasons why we are impatient. Not to mention how much longer we are going to even enjoy football in this country. That is a different topic.

Ok, so whats the fix? 3 years of shitty offense, whats the constant? its not TS, its not Os, he wasnt here for all of this. New Coaching, 2 of those 3... what is the fix that will keep this window open, and when do you look to accpet some growing pains as you develop a young qb? they dont all come into the league hof ready...

[spikerman]

No patience? I think you fail to fully understand that this is a championship organization that has the number one defense that has PROVEN can win it.

Not easy to keep that unit together and we are in the prime of Von Millers career. Not asking for a lot. Not 30 points a game. No, if they average 23 points, which is average, this team wins. Has a real chance.

This TREND as some of us saw has been there the entire season and this offense has averaged about 10 points a game over the last four games.

This is not a slapdick Browns organization. There are many reasons why we are impatient. Not to mention how much longer we are going to even enjoy football in this country. That is a different topic.
Actually, the Browns have outscored the Broncos over the past four games.

[Krugan]

A terrible offense.

And we have a young qb with less then 2 years starting exp, you cant put it all on him, when can we accept the pain of growing a QB?

[Krugan]

The answer is never because its a win now and only now league, or uhh fan base

[wayninja]

And we have a young qb with less then 2 years starting exp, you cant put it all on him, when can we accept the pain of growing a QB?

Lol, never. Get used it.

I'm serious. The idea of slowly letting a QB develop when fresh studs are coming from the farm every year is just too much. Especially when the other side of the ball is so damned good.

If we are going to let someone "develop", I'd rather it be someone with more raw talent then TS, that's just my opinion. TS should never have seen the field as a starter, the fact that he did was nearly a miracle, and with that narrow window of opportunity, you either deliver or are cut as bait. That's it. Hard reality.

[spikerman]

It might be different if we were seeing signs of improvement. Please tell me where it looks like he has improved his game. I’ll wait.

[Krugan]

Lol, never. Get used it.

I'm serious. The idea of slowly letting a QB develop when fresh studs are coming from the farm every year is just too much. Especially when the other side of the ball is so damned good.

If we are going to let someone "develop", I'd rather it be someone with more raw talent then TS, that's just my opinion. TS should never have seen the field as a starter, the fact that he did was nearly a miracle, and with that narrow window of opportunity, you either deliver or are cut as bait. That's it. Hard reality.

So that really falls to all the young guys on the team.

All of them have less then 2 years starting, so the lure of young guys coming every year is working well.

[turftoad]

And we have a young qb with less then 2 years starting exp, you cant put it all on him, when can we accept the pain of growing a QB?

When they show they could actually be the answer. One fluke game (Cowboys) is not convincing enough to show that he could be the QB of the future. TS is NOT the answer.

[Krugan]

It might be different if we were seeing signs of improvement. Please tell me where it looks like he has improved his game. I’ll wait.

You are assuming im all about TS being "the guy". Im not, it matters not, i just want the team to win.

Im simply pointing out, that it doesnt matter what name is on that jersey, people dont have the patience to see if they grow. This board is littered with Lynch being a bust before he ever gets live bullets steadily(im guilty too, but i just dont see it with him) so there NEVER will be a patience.

This is as much a indictment on humanity as it fans of the nfl.

[wayninja]

So that really falls to all the young guys on the team.

All of them have less then 2 years starting, so the lure of young guys coming every year is working well.

And you think if we just gave them all more time, despite regressing, then they'd all stop regressing and become world beaters?

I'm not sure your logic/strategy is much better.

[MOtorboat]

The answer is never because its a win now and only now league, or uhh fan base

It's always a win now league. Always. The NFL has built itself to be that way, so 20 games is plenty of time in the NFL to evaluate a quarterback.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

And we have a young qb with less then 2 years starting exp, you cant put it all on him, when can we accept the pain of growing a QB?

If the QB was someone we invested heavily in with a high draft pick and multi-million contract, we might have more patience. Siemian is actually playing like we saw Lynch play in the preseason. Where’s the upside? Everyone should just resign themselves to the fact that Siemian, no matter how “nice” he is, no matter how much a of a feel good story he is, and no matter how “Peyton-esque” in demeanor or whatever BS everyone was fed in the off-season is gonna change the fact that the guy will never be our franchise QB. Why waste any more time? I can watch Osweiler get shut out - oh wait, he wouldn’t. I could watch Lynch (when healthy) take his lumps in real games (and probably lose) for the same return I’m getting from Siemian. In other words, I’m tired of watching our backup QB playing every week when we could try something else.

For the record, Oz was 5-2 and beat the Patriots with an Oline as bad as the one we have now. Say what you want about the giraffe, but he’s a winner in Denver.

[Krugan]

If the QB was someone we invested heavily in with a high draft pick and multi-million contract, we might have more patience. Siemian is actually playing like we saw Lynch play in the preseason. Where’s the upside? Everyone should just resign themselves to the fact that Siemian, no matter how “nice” he is, no matter how much a of a feel good story he is, and no matter how “Peyton-esque” in demeanor or whatever BS everyone was fed in the off-season is gonna change the fact that the guy will never be our franchise QB. Why waste any more time? I can watch Osweiler get shut out - oh wait, he wouldn’t. I could watch Lynch (when healthy) take his lumps in real games (and probably lose) for the same return I’m getting from Siemian. In other words, I’m tired of watching our backup QB playing every week when we could try something else.

For the record, Oz was 5-2 and beat the Patriots with an Oline as bad as the one we have now. Say what you want about the giraffe, but he’s a winner in Denver.

I see, so draft position, which is a guess anyway....

[Krugan]

And you think if we just gave them all more time, despite regressing, then they'd all stop regressing and become world beaters?

I'm not sure your logic/strategy is much better.

Well at some point someone will need more time to grow, even if the fall backwards, ya.

The "bring in the new name" seems to be working wonders atm.

[spikerman]

I see, so draft position, which is a guess anyway....
People would be more patient if there were signs of improvement. There aren’t. This isn’t that difficult to understand.

[wayninja]

Well at some point someone will need more time to grow, even if the fall backwards, ya.

The "bring in the new name" seems to be working wonders atm.

But that is overly simplistic. You have to see something that makes you want to be patient. We've seen steps in the wrong direction. Big ones.

And to be completely honest, TS has to play to a higher standard as his physical tools/raw talent just aren't high enough to warrant more patience.

[MOtorboat]

If the QB was someone we invested heavily in with a high draft pick and multi-million contract, we might have more patience. Siemian is actually playing like we saw Lynch play in the preseason. Where’s the upside? Everyone should just resign themselves to the fact that Siemian, no matter how “nice” he is, no matter how much a of a feel good story he is, and no matter how “Peyton-esque” in demeanor or whatever BS everyone was fed in the off-season is gonna change the fact that the guy will never be our franchise QB. Why waste any more time? I can watch Osweiler get shut out - oh wait, he wouldn’t. I could watch Lynch (when healthy) take his lumps in real games (and probably lose) for the same return I’m getting from Siemian. In other words, I’m tired of watching our backup QB playing every week when we could try something else.

For the record, Oz was 5-2 and beat the Patriots with an Oline as bad as the one we have now. Say what you want about the giraffe, but he’s a winner in Denver.

Osweiler is 13-8 as a starter. Siemian is 11-9.

[spikerman]

I’m still all for playing Lynch at this point. He can’t do worse than zero points and the Broncos have to make some informed decisions going forward. If he’s healthy let him face live bullets.

[wayninja]

I’m still all for playing Lynch at this point. He can’t do worse than zero points and the Broncos have to make some informed decisions going forward. If he’s healthy let him face live bullets.

Yep, I agree. We need to know what we've got. I've seen enough of Trev. I was on the fence at the start of the season and I've seen enough regression to not want to see any more. I would have loved for him to succeed, but we all knew what a longshot that was going to be. I don't think more time is the answer when we've got to decide the fate of more than him.

[Dreadnought]

Yep, I agree. We need to know what we've got. I've seen enough of Trev. I was on the fence at the start of the season and I've seen enough regression to not want to see any more. I would have loved for him to succeed, but we all knew what a longshot that was going to be. I don't think more time is the answer when we've got to decide the fate of more than him.

The great unknown for me is whether TS is coachable or not. Staring down receivers ought to be fixable - but maybe its not. Reacting to pressure - ditto. Decision making (as in not throwing Interceptions) ditto. I watched him perform very well weeks one and two, and in a fair number of games last year, and I think he throws a pretty pass and is pretty accurate. He has a good work ethic and is by all accounts a bright guy. That doesn't mean he will of a certainty become a passable NFL QB, because his issues may be beyond help. I just don't know at this point, but I don't think anyone else does either

[spikerman]

We don’t “know,” but we’ve definitely seen enough to have some strong suspicions.

[Dreadnought]

We don’t “know,” but we’ve definitely seen enough to have some strong suspicions.

I can buy that

[Hawgdriver]

TS is NOT the answer.

I agree, but at some point unless you nab Peyton Manning #2 you endure some suck while the kid figures it out. With ALL of them.

[wayninja]

I agree, but at some point unless you nab Peyton Manning #2 you endure some suck while the kid figures it out. With ALL of them.

That's true... then the real question becomes, how big should window be?

I think 20 games is probably enough. Maybe if you see progress at this time or even just consistency you stick out a while longer, (or even if you are just winning ugly) but I think all the signs are there that this suckage could continue for a long while.

[Dreadnought]

That's true... then the real question becomes, how big should window be?

I think 20 games is probably enough. Maybe if you see progress at this time or even just consistency you stick out a while longer, (or even if you are just winning ugly) but I think all the signs are there that this suckage could continue for a long while.

Could well be. I am also not averse to giving the Giraffe another shot. He played pretty well for us in '15, up until that bizarre final game v. SD, where he became the most snakebit QB I've ever seen in just one half. Even then he played pretty well until he came unglued.

He didn't work out in Houston, and a lot of fans resent his chasing the $, but there might be some hope he could work out. I don't count his getting run out of Cleveland against him, because Cleveland almost never makes a good decision.

Hope is all I got, gents.

[Northman]

The problem with Trevor is he doesnt have anymore upside. He is the type of QB that needs to have everything else going right around him in order to be successful. But when things start to fall apart or if those things around him are not playing at full capacity he can not elevate his play or motivate those around him to elevate their play when needed. He is very much a game manager but the Broncos at this point in time with the offense they have need a guy who can elevate not only his play but be a leader and motiviate those around him. He just cant do that and we are seeing the results of that right now. This isnt rocket science people, it might be October and Halloween might be around the corner but there are no tricks involved with dissecting what is going on with our QB situation. This isnt an issue about experience or time anymore, we have now seen enough to know how far Trevor can go as a QB and a leader. The truly great QB's take command of their teams, they elevate their play when other parts of the team fall down, he simply can not do that. And while this isnt an endorsement for Oz or Lynch the stark reality is we have one guy who helped take a team to a SB and another who was drafted to be the future. Either we try and see if Oz can right the ship or we hand the reigns to Lynch for the rest of the season to see if he is indeed going to be the future. But Trevor has taken this team about as far as he can. He's a nice guy and has tried his best but he is not a QB you leave in the hands of the franchise with. I dont care if VJ is the HC and i dont care that Elway is the general manager. Ive seen this type of QB before in Denver and it wont work and we still have some unanswered questions with the guys behind him. Tanking the rest of the season behind Trevor is the worst possible scenario and i get frustrated as a fan that the coach and FO are too hard headed to make a change when its blatantly obvious one should be made.

[Broncoknight30]

The problem with Trevor is he doesnt have anymore upside. He is the type of QB that needs to have everything else going right around him in order to be successful. But when things start to fall apart or if those things around him are not playing at full capacity he can not elevate his play or motivate those around him to elevate their play when needed. He is very much a game manager but the Broncos at this point in time with the offense they have need a guy who can elevate not only his play but be a leader and motiviate those around him. He just cant do that and we are seeing the results of that right now. This isnt rocket science people, it might be October and Halloween might be around the corner but there are no tricks involved with dissecting what is going on with our QB situation. This isnt an issue about experience or time anymore, we have now seen enough to know how far Trevor can go as a QB and a leader. The truly great QB's take command of their teams, they elevate their play when other parts of the team fall down, he simply can not do that. And while this isnt an endorsement for Oz or Lynch the stark reality is we have one guy who helped take a team to a SB and another who was drafted to be the future. Either we try and see if Oz can right the ship or we hand the reigns to Lynch for the rest of the season to see if he is indeed going to be the future. But Trevor has taken this team about as far as he can. He's a nice guy and has tried his best but he is not a QB you leave in the hands of the franchise with. I dont care if VJ is the HC and i dont care that Elway is the general manager. Ive seen this type of QB before in Denver and it wont work and we still have some unanswered questions with the guys behind him. Tanking the rest of the season behind Trevor is the worst possible scenario and i get frustrated as a fan that the coach and FO are too hard headed to make a change when its blatantly obvious one should be made.

The truly great QBs produce consistently AND don't bankrupt their franchises because they are married to a richer hot wife and is far more concerned about winning than making as much money as they can while they can.

:)

The rest of them do great, winning teams, get paid big, and then they struggle to make it back.

:(

The problem with this offense (Siemian) in my estimation is they are not even average. Which is not all that much we as fans demand.

Average will do. 23 points per game is middle of the pack. Not crazy. Hell, if they averaged 20 points this team could win 11 games and make the play offs.

This offense ( Siemian) is so bad, so predictable, and so inept that they are not averaging 11 points over the last 4 games. The giants and chargers were considered the easy part of the schedule.


I know I am being redundant. Sorry.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I wouldn’t even call Siemian a game manager. Game managers are relied upon to play within the limits of their ability and not turn the ball over. Siemian is turning the ball over at an alarming rate. I mean shit, it’s one thing to take a sack, it’s another to fumble the ball away too.

Siemian almost looks like he’s trying to be a gunslinger without any of the arm talent, ability to read a defense, or moxie.

[ShaneFalco]

he bought into Trigger Trev, maybe a little too hard.

[VonDoom]

I have no idea how real this is (considering it's someone's comment on a MHR article) but if this "Chargers scout" is legit, this is pretty damning:

https://twitter.com/IanStClair/status/922935766921211904

[Cugel]

Every time I see the title of this thread I start to read: "How Short is Siemian's Lash?" and I think "they are starting to lash him now? Well, he deserves it!" But, then I think he's too injured to be properly motivated by 10 or 20 lashes well laid on.

11268

[MOtorboat]

I have no idea how real this is (considering it's someone's comment on a MHR article) but if this "Chargers scout" is legit, this is pretty damning:

https://twitter.com/IanStClair/status/922935766921211904

Even if it's not legit, and do question whether it is, most of what's in there other than the field-level tells, we can all see. People keep blaming the tackles when Siemian goes too far back in the pocket and he's sailing passes.

[VonDoom]

Oh yeah, a lot of that can be seen just from watching the games. Not sure if anything can be done about that. But if he really has tells, that's a problem. It's like tipping pitches. We should have people watching film to look for tendencies and stuff anyway, so I'm not sure how that wouldn't be picked up, yet here we are talking about it a week after the Giants said very similar things.

[NightTrainLayne]

Oh yeah, a lot of that can be seen just from watching the games. Not sure if anything can be done about that. But if he really has tells, that's a problem. It's like tipping pitches. We should have people watching film to look for tendencies and stuff anyway, so I'm not sure how that wouldn't be picked up, yet here we are talking about it a week after the Giants said very similar things.

We watch other teams for this type of thing. There was a nice article about it last year.

I'd have to think that we self-scout as well.

That being said, just because we see it, or know it doesn't guarantee the QB won't still do it under pressure.

[VonDoom]

Someone on Twitter asked Troy Renck whether anyone had asked VJ about Siemian's "tells":

Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck 4m4 minutes ago

Troy Renck Retweeted U_Mad_Bro

I asked. Coach said not issue.

[MOtorboat]

Someone on Twitter asked Troy Renck whether anyone had asked VJ about Siemian's "tells":

Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck 4m4 minutes ago

Troy Renck Retweeted U_Mad_Bro

I asked. Coach said not issue.

Is anything an issue? Seriously? I get not wanting to call anyone out in the media, or protecting your players and not saying anything, but that sounds like a affirmation by no comment. "All players have habits that we have to break, or change, and throw different things at the opposing defense, and he's no different."

[NightTrainLayne]

"All players have habits that we have to break, or change, and throw different things at the opposing defense, and he's no different."

Is that quote from VJ?

[MOtorboat]

Is that quote from VJ?

No. It's a quote I'd like to hear. Not it's not a problem. There's clearly a problem, coach.

[underrated29]

Cant wait for Chad Kelly

[NightTrainLayne]

Cant wait for Chad Kelly

2018 is a long ways off dude.

[underrated29]

2018 is a long ways off dude.


2 months

[underrated29]

2018 is a long ways off dude.


Well, weve got nothing else going for us this year. I would still trade all of our QBs to GreenBay for any RT or LG they have. Roll into next season with Chad, Sloter (sign him to active roster from vikings PS) and see what happens.

[wayninja]

Is anything an issue? Seriously? I get not wanting to call anyone out in the media, or protecting your players and not saying anything, but that sounds like a affirmation by no comment. "All players have habits that we have to break, or change, and throw different things at the opposing defense, and he's no different."

Everything is fine.

https://www.medo64.com/content/media/errortheoperationcompletedsuccessfully.png

[BeefStew25]

The problem with Trevor is he doesnt have anymore upside. He is the type of QB that needs to have everything else going right around him in order to be successful. But when things start to fall apart or if those things around him are not playing at full capacity he can not elevate his play or motivate those around him to elevate their play when needed. He is very much a game manager but the Broncos at this point in time with the offense they have need a guy who can elevate not only his play but be a leader and motiviate those around him. He just cant do that and we are seeing the results of that right now. This isnt rocket science people, it might be October and Halloween might be around the corner but there are no tricks involved with dissecting what is going on with our QB situation. This isnt an issue about experience or time anymore, we have now seen enough to know how far Trevor can go as a QB and a leader. The truly great QB's take command of their teams, they elevate their play when other parts of the team fall down, he simply can not do that. And while this isnt an endorsement for Oz or Lynch the stark reality is we have one guy who helped take a team to a SB and another who was drafted to be the future. Either we try and see if Oz can right the ship or we hand the reigns to Lynch for the rest of the season to see if he is indeed going to be the future. But Trevor has taken this team about as far as he can. He's a nice guy and has tried his best but he is not a QB you leave in the hands of the franchise with. I dont care if VJ is the HC and i dont care that Elway is the general manager. Ive seen this type of QB before in Denver and it wont work and we still have some unanswered questions with the guys behind him. Tanking the rest of the season behind Trevor is the worst possible scenario and i get frustrated as a fan that the coach and FO are too hard headed to make a change when its blatantly obvious one should be made.

Dude.

[wayninja]

Dude.

I know, I had to print that up and put that in a blender to make it readable.

[BeefStew25]

I know, I had to print that up and put that in a blender to make it readable.

I didn’t read a word. North is an aspie.

[Northman]

I didn’t read a word. North is an aspie.

Nah, i just like annoying you.

[BroncoWave]

The problem with Trevor is he doesnt have anymore upside. He is the type of QB that needs to have everything else going right around him in order to be successful. But when things start to fall apart or if those things around him are not playing at full capacity he can not elevate his play or motivate those around him to elevate their play when needed. He is very much a game manager but the Broncos at this point in time with the offense they have need a guy who can elevate not only his play but be a leader and motiviate those around him. He just cant do that and we are seeing the results of that right now. This isnt rocket science people, it might be October and Halloween might be around the corner but there are no tricks involved with dissecting what is going on with our QB situation. This isnt an issue about experience or time anymore, we have now seen enough to know how far Trevor can go as a QB and a leader. The truly great QB's take command of their teams, they elevate their play when other parts of the team fall down, he simply can not do that. And while this isnt an endorsement for Oz or Lynch the stark reality is we have one guy who helped take a team to a SB and another who was drafted to be the future. Either we try and see if Oz can right the ship or we hand the reigns to Lynch for the rest of the season to see if he is indeed going to be the future. But Trevor has taken this team about as far as he can. He's a nice guy and has tried his best but he is not a QB you leave in the hands of the franchise with. I dont care if VJ is the HC and i dont care that Elway is the general manager. Ive seen this type of QB before in Denver and it wont work and we still have some unanswered questions with the guys behind him. Tanking the rest of the season behind Trevor is the worst possible scenario and i get frustrated as a fan that the coach and FO are too hard headed to make a change when its blatantly obvious one should be made.

Godammit North you really need to use paragraphs. No one is trying to read this wall of text!

[Cugel]

Originally Posted by Northman View Post
The problem with Trevor is he doesnt have anymore upside. He is the type of QB that needs to have everything else going right around him in order to be successful.

But when things start to fall apart or if those things around him are not playing at full capacity he can not elevate his play or motivate those around him to elevate their play when needed. He is very much a game manager but the Broncos at this point in time with the offense they have need a guy who can elevate not only his play but be a leader and motiviate those around him.

He just cant do that and we are seeing the results of that right now. This isnt rocket science people, it might be October and Halloween might be around the corner but there are no tricks involved with dissecting what is going on with our QB situation. This isnt an issue about experience or time anymore, we have now seen enough to know how far Trevor can go as a QB and a leader.

The truly great QB's take command of their teams, they elevate their play when other parts of the team fall down, he simply can not do that.

And while this isnt an endorsement for Oz or Lynch the stark reality is we have one guy who helped take a team to a SB and another who was drafted to be the future. Either we try and see if Oz can right the ship or we hand the reigns to Lynch for the rest of the season to see if he is indeed going to be the future.

But Trevor has taken this team about as far as he can. He's a nice guy and has tried his best but he is not a QB you leave in the hands of the franchise with. I dont care if VJ is the HC and i dont care that Elway is the general manager. Ive seen this type of QB before in Denver and it wont work and we still have some unanswered questions with the guys behind him. Tanking the rest of the season behind Trevor is the worst possible scenario and i get frustrated as a fan that the coach and FO are too hard headed to make a change when its blatantly obvious one should be made.

That is how you do it. Not difficult.

Once translated into English, this post amounts to: "We need to find an Elite QB because a game-manager isn't good enough and Trevor is a Game Manager. He'll be OK if the rest of the team is great, especially the OL, but otherwise not."

So, the entire point is correct, but misses reality by several miles. No Hall of Fame calibre QB is coming to Denver. Peyton Manning was a fluke. John Elway was in 1983. Denver will have to commit to totally rebuilding this team with a new QB or else Elway will have to sign a Veteran FA. Or both.

And then the Broncos will have to get really lucky and have that QB turn out to be more than a game manager. And then it will take several years for him to learn.

[Broncoknight30]

That is how you do it. Not difficult.

Once translated into English, this post amounts to: "We need to find an Elite QB because a game-manager isn't good enough and Trevor is a Game Manager. He'll be OK if the rest of the team is great, especially the OL, but otherwise not."

So, the entire point is correct, but misses reality by several miles. No Hall of Fame calibre QB is coming to Denver. Peyton Manning was a fluke. John Elway was in 1983. Denver will have to commit to totally rebuilding this team with a new QB or else Elway will have to sign a Veteran FA. Or both.

And then the Broncos will have to get really lucky and have that QB turn out to be more than a game manager. And then it will take several years for him to learn.

I happen to think the "game manager" thing does work. So long as you have a prolific defense. That is what this team has. The problem is we keep insisting Siemian is game manager. He is less than that. This offense.....averaging about 10 points per game over the last 4 games, is not that. That is the problem.

Only two games this year the Broncos scored over 21 points. Won both of those. Scoring 22 points per game is about 16th or so in the league.

As I have pointed out we see what the dynamic QBs get paid. How many of those teams with HIGH PRICED QBs are elite right now?

Colts?
Saints?
Lions?
Cardinals?
Ravens?

I agree that it is a QB driven league. It is also about stopping the elite QBs. We have the best example of this there is. The 2013 Broncos and 2015 Broncos. Two, completely opposite teams. One, the most dynamic offense in the history of the game. Records that will probably never be broken. DT actually broke Jerry Rice's record in that game for receptions.

The 2015 Broncos, the offense was less than average. Brock Osweiler went 5-2 and out dueled Brady in the snow. Manning, the great was ranked 33rd in the NFL for passer rating. DT, had a horrible statistical play off run. As opposed to the mass catches in SB 48, he had one catch for 8 yards in SB 50.

You see where I am going. Another point we bring up is how ELITE defenses like the 2015 Broncos or 85 Bears, or 2000 Ravens, tend to not repeat. That is true. I will add this to that fact. Of the top 10 most prolific passing offenses in the history of the NFL, only ONE won the SB. The 99 Rams. That team needed to fight one out the Bucs in the NFCCG, where the Bucs shut down that offense. Most offenses like that, dating back to the air Coryel days, and Marino get figured out.

I guess the question comes down to this. The Broncos land a dynamic QB like Luck. Luck, and 30million dollar contract means the defense takes a hit. In a hard cap league, we simply cannot have....

A great QB
A great DEFENSE.
A great OL.
Great WRs.
Great running game.

Cannot happen. What is more important? A dynamic high priced QB or a dynamic high priced defense? Just know that EVERY SB winning team ALL had dynamic defenses. Including ALL of the Montana teams etc. I know the first 3 SBs for Brady were all great. Last year they ranked higher than they had in a few years.

Not sure what the answer is. That is my long point. Did I give Joel a run for his money?

[Mike]

I was a Siemian supporter and thought he had the poise to be a starter. He has completely lost any sense of poise. He doesn't step up into the pocket, drops back too far, slides into pressure, and locks on to one receiver. He is too far along to be consistently making these mistakes.

You can tell that he doesn't trust the oline and that he is just looking to get rid of the ball. Don't get me wrong, the oline is a major problem...but Siemian is the biggest problem. Problem is that I don't think Brent or Lynch will fair any better. We are probably looking at drafting top 5 this year.

[Freyaka]

Someone on Twitter asked Troy Renck whether anyone had asked VJ about Siemian's "tells":

Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck 4m4 minutes ago

Troy Renck Retweeted U_Mad_Bro

I asked. Coach said not issue.

Course he did...Coach VJ doesn't believe in issues. Just gotta play better.

[Freyaka]

We should totally give New York a call about Eli.

[Rick]

I was actually thinking Eli might be available next year after NY takes the top QB in the draft.

Not sure he has enough left though and eventually we actually need to have our own young stud...

[VonDoom]

We should totally give New York a call about Eli.

That's a hard pass for me, sorry.

[Broncoknight30]

We should totally give New York a call about Eli.

In the last 10 seasons or so, he has been ranked in the top 10 in passer rating ONCE.

He is a pretty overrated QB riding that defense to two SB wins. Yes, he was ranked 25th in the NFL in passer rating in 2007. One of those two SB seasons.

He has had talent too. Has had running games. He sort of blows.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

In the last 10 seasons or so, he has been ranked in the top 10 in passer rating ONCE.

He is a pretty overrated QB riding that defense to two SB wins. Yes, he was ranked 25th in the NFL in passer rating in 2007. One of those two SB seasons.

He has had talent too. Has had running games. He sort of blows.

At least he knows how to climb the pocket and step into his throw

[Freyaka]

At least he knows how to climb the pocket and step into his throw

Right... I mean even with a crappy line and no WR's to speak of, he's still in the top 10 in most categories. He also doesn't have a viable run game right now. People love to crap on him because he's the ugly Manning sister, but he's still a two time superbowl winning QB.

[Broncoknight30]

At least he knows how to climb the pocket and step into his throw

True...

Not worth the loot.

I really have no clue what the answer is.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

True...

Not worth the loot.

I really have no clue what the answer is.

I don’t either....

I’m hopeful the truth about Trevor is somewhere in the middle: I’m hopeful he isn’t as bad as we’ve seen in the last month and will be able to make adjustments. His footwork concerns me more than anything else to be honest. The issues with sacks and errant throws would be helped by better footwork.

[LawDog]

That's a hard pass for me, sorry.

Would be pretty amusing if he came here and got a third ring though. The Nationwide commercials would be epic.

[Rick]

Personally I would rather get a second former Colt #1 QB pick than a second Manning.

I suspect the second Manning would be easier though...

[Cugel]

I happen to think the "game manager" thing does work. So long as you have a prolific defense. That is what this team has. The problem is we keep insisting Siemian is game manager. He is less than that. This offense.....averaging about 10 points per game over the last 4 games, is not that. That is the problem. . . . .

Not sure what the answer is. That is my long point. Did I give Joel a run for his money?

There. I've shortened it for you. :lol:

But, no. Joel is still the champ of run-on paragraphs, and Northman is the king of lack of punctuation.

Against this argument is the fact that the SB winning QB list looks like this:


Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs
Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs
Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD
Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD
Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD
Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 46: Eli Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 47: Joe Flacco (MVP), 3TDs
Super Bowl 48: Russell Wilson (Malcolm Smith), 2TDs
Super Bowl 49: Tom Brady (MVP), 4TDs
Super Bowl 50: Peyton Manning (Von Miller), 0TDs
Super Bowl 51: Tom Brady (MVP), 2TDs

This is not a list of guys who happen to be Hall of Famers because they were lucky enough to play on SB teams, this is a list of guys who are Hall of Famers who won SBs because they were good.

Out of that entire list, the names that stand out were: Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Joe Flacco. Dilfer and Johnson were dragged to SB wins by historically great defenses, like the '85 Bears and 2015 Broncos. Flacco played superbly well in the playoffs that year but has looked pedestrian since.

So, maybe you can win games with a game-manager QB but it's quite another thing to win SBs.

[Freyaka]

Personally I would rather get a second former Colt #1 QB pick than a second Manning.

I suspect the second Manning would be easier though...

I think we all would because we win Superbowls with former Colt first rounders.

[Cugel]

As for Trevor, no, Trevor is not "average" "adequate" a "game manager" or anything remotely positive right now. He is "shell-shocked" "deer in the headlights" "running scared" "staring down his WRs", "confused" and "ineffective."

Part of that is how horrible his OL is. He's getting absolutely beaten like a gong on every play. Allen Barbre was unable to even make contact with Joey Bosa. And that is no knock on Barbre. It's not his fault he sucks as a RT. He's a GUARD, that stupid VJ insisted on having as his "swing tackle."

Personally, I disliked Schofield, but he was a TACKLE playing RT, not an out of position Guard who played some tackle years ago or something. If they were going to conclude that Stephenson can't do the job why is he still on the roster and Schofield not?

And why did they decide to sign Watson when you have no adequate backup and he's been hurt over 1/2 his entire NFL career. Now they are desperately hoping he returns so they can go back to sucking, instead of being beyond horrible.

Last edited by Cugel; Today at 11:03 AM.

[Broncoknight30]

There. I've shortened it for you. :lol:

But, no. Joel is still the champ of run-on paragraphs, and Northman is the king of lack of punctuation.

Against this argument is the fact that the SB winning QB list looks like this:



This is not a list of guys who happen to be Hall of Famers because they were lucky enough to play on SB teams, this is a list of guys who are Hall of Famers who won SBs because they were good.

Out of that entire list, the names that stand out were: Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Joe Flacco. Dilfer and Johnson were dragged to SB wins by historically great defenses, like the '85 Bears and 2015 Broncos. Flacco played superbly well in the playoffs that year but has looked pedestrian since.

So, maybe you can win games with a game-manager QB but it's quite another thing to win SBs.

Personally, I think you can add Eli mannings name to game manager along with Hostetler etc.

I guess my point is those QBs I doubt would have one ring if not for their defenses. Yes, they were all great, and I would say most of them were historically good. The 49ers defenses don't get the credit quite like those West coast offenses, but those defenses were classic. Especially that 1984 defense that shut down Marino.

Anyway, I think this defense is still sturdy enough to win it all, if Siemian even fell into the category of game manager. The offense is so bad and he is so inept that he cannot even get to that level.

In this hard cap era, there is a reason why the Colts, Saints and Ravens along with the Lions etc cannot put together a team around those quality QBs, let alone field decent defenses.

[Mike]

I don't think this line is built for a game managing QB. It needs a smart QB that can overcome adversity, frequent missed assignments, and can get the ball out quickly/accurately. That isn't a game manager.