View Full Version : "Deep Thoughts" Thread
dogfish
09-03-2017, 09:04 PM
alright, we need a bunker thread. . . a haven. . .
a neutral ground where we can discuss random, non-relevant shit, instead of battling over the drama du jour. . . if you dare bring up any quarterback controversy, tebow, mcdaniels type of nonsense, i will go to the expense of hiring davii to track you down and cripple you. . .
okay, i will pose the first question, because i honestly still wonder about it. . .
WTF happened to sly williams in '16?
:defense: :noidea:
feel free to post your own questions-- but please stay free of this year unless it's some legitimately minor, non-controversial shit. . . unless you don't value the use of your legs, and that type of thing. . .
Sly is an interesting topic. Some would say he was not a true 1st round value, but he was a four year starter and a starter on a SB team. Maybe that's not enough value, IDK. But I think he has a nice bubble.
dogfish
09-03-2017, 09:15 PM
Sly is an interesting topic. Some would say he was not a true 1st round value, but he was a four year starter and a starter on a SB team. Maybe that's not enough value, IDK. But I think he has a nice bubble.
agreed on the latter. . . the former is an interesting question in its own right, and worth discussing if ya want. . . what i'm more asking though, is what happened to him in 2016? was it mostly the loss of malik? cuz i don't think that was all of it. . . he just sort of fell off-- in a contract year, too. . . was he worn down, hurt, got complacent? he didn't suck in '15, at all-- wasn't dominant, but he played his role just fine. . .
agreed on the latter. . . the former is an interesting question in its own right, and worth discussing if ya want. . . what i'm more asking though, is what happened to him in 2016? was it mostly the loss of malik? cuz i don't think that was all of it. . . he just sort of fell off-- in a contract year, too. . . was he worn down, hurt, got complacent? he didn't suck in '15, at all-- wasn't dominant, but he played his role just fine. . .
They did not pick up his option. Not much more to it, IMO.
Sly is an interesting topic. Some would say he was not a true 1st round value, but he was a four year starter and a starter on a SB team. Maybe that's not enough value, IDK. But I think he has a nice bubble.
He's the type of guy who needed others around him, but when he had that support he could over achieve. The type of player who could make a unit greater than the sum of its parts, maybe?
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-03-2017, 09:48 PM
Safe haven?! Screw that, let's burn this piece!
He's the type of guy who needed others around him, but when he had that support he could over achieve. The type of player who could make a unit greater than the sum of its parts, maybe?
You mean a teammate?
How much potential did Javon Walker have?
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-03-2017, 09:52 PM
He's the type of guy who needed others around him, but when he had that support he could over achieve. The type of player who could make a unit greater than the sum of its parts, maybe?
This pretty much; the guys around him were too undersized last year
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-03-2017, 09:54 PM
How much potential did Javon Walker have?
Javon Walker was a physical freak, similar to DT. I don't think ever recovered from DW dying in his lap, combined with a bum knee..
Safe haven?! Screw that, let's burn this piece!
Grow up!!!!
I completely forgot about Javon. Man, the world keeps turning.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-03-2017, 09:57 PM
Grow up!!!!
But, why?
But, why?
I don't know!!!!
Simple Jaded
09-03-2017, 10:27 PM
Clinton Portis was pretty good.
Why didn't Boss Bailey work out?
dogfish
09-03-2017, 10:58 PM
Why didn't Boss Bailey work out?
hurt, always. . .
Is Cody Latimer the best back up WR ever?
Discuss.
Is Cody Latimer the best back up WR ever?
Discuss.
No.
alright, we need a bunker thread. . . a haven. . .
a neutral ground where we can discuss random, non-relevant shit, instead of battling over the drama du jour. . . if you dare bring up any quarterback controversy, tebow, mcdaniels type of nonsense, i will go to the expense of hiring davii to track you down and cripple you. . .
okay, i will pose the first question, because i honestly still wonder about it. . .
WTF happened to sly williams in '16?
:defense: :noidea:
feel free to post your own questions-- but please stay free of this year unless it's some legitimately minor, non-controversial shit. . . unless you don't value the use of your legs, and that type of thing. . .
A night that went wrong at Shotgun Willies, which led to more than a lap dance, and the resulting yet named STD wrecked his stamina, muscle tone and apparently has Syphilis like brain destroying properties.
Is Cody Latimer the best back up WR ever?
Discuss.
Yes.
dogfish
09-03-2017, 11:25 PM
A night that went wrong at Shotgun Willies, which led to more than a lap dance, and the resulting yet named STD wrecked his stamina, muscle tone and apparently has Syphilis like brain destroying properties.
i said sly williams, not matt prater. . . :D
Jsteve01
09-03-2017, 11:34 PM
Hey what's going on in here? King can you put your shirt on please nut seems to be getting excited
i said sly williams, not matt prater. . . :D
My bad. They all look the same.
Hey what's going on in here? King can you put your shirt on please nut seems to be getting excited
?????????????
Jsteve01
09-03-2017, 11:48 PM
Hey what's going on in here? King can you put your shirt on please nut seems to be getting excited
????????????? I apologize. I've ingested copious amounts of kava tonight and I'm a little bit loopy right now
Jsteve01
09-04-2017, 12:07 AM
Is Cody Latimer the best back up WR ever?
Discuss. apparently he's a really solid special teams player and a pretty good run blocker so to answer your question yes
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-04-2017, 12:45 AM
Why didn't Boss Bailey work out?
Overrated
MOtorboat
09-04-2017, 01:42 AM
What would have been had Champ Bailey caught the pick-six in the first quarter of the AFC Championship game in January 2006?
Canmore
09-04-2017, 02:01 AM
Clinton Portis was pretty good.
Champ Bailey was a whole lot better.
Shazam!
09-04-2017, 07:23 AM
Why didn't Boss Bailey work out?
I think Boss benefited from Detroit they had a much better DL.
WTF happened to sly williams in '16?
Malik Jacksonville. Never as great as his agent and most Broncos fans thought, he was nonetheless an undeniable physical presence. He and the similarly imposing Derek Wolfe on the other side made up for Slys, whose skills and mass better suit a 4-3 UT role. If a preseason injury hadn't aborted the rest of Vance Walkers season it might not have mattered, but it did, so it did. Sly was never the kind of guy who demands double teams and collapses pockets by sheer main force.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-04-2017, 09:37 AM
What about Dumervil.
He couldn't get his fax straight
He couldn't get his fax straight
It's just business. ;)
tomjonesrocks
09-04-2017, 10:14 AM
How did Matt Prater manage to get kicked off the team?
HORSEPOWER 56
09-04-2017, 10:14 AM
What about Dumervil.
I loved Doom. He was our first real pass rusher since Neil Smith retired. We tried everything to get guys that could rush the passer (bad drafts, the Browncos, etc). Doom restored some respectability. He also got some of his best hits on Tom Brady which are some of my favorite moments. I was super pissed when we lost him to Baltimore but bringing in Demarcus Ware made it all better for me.
HORSEPOWER 56
09-04-2017, 10:15 AM
How did Matt Prater manage to get kicked off the team?
:drinking::drinking::drinking::shots::shots::shots :
I'm still amused by how deftly Doom dodged not one but TWO championships in only twice as many seasons. If he dodged OTs that well he'd end up in Canton. :lol:
tomjonesrocks
09-04-2017, 10:28 AM
Did Denver just cut the second coming of Kurt Warner?
UnderArmour
09-04-2017, 10:40 AM
How did Matt Prater manage to get kicked off the team?
Obviously, he was spending too much time with Broncos executives.
Did Denver just cut the second coming of Kurt Warner?
Don't make dog tap the OP, man. ;)
Out of all the random scrubs who got 1k yards in the Shanny system, which RB did you guys like the most?
aberdien
09-04-2017, 11:00 AM
Mike Anderson
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/014/158/56244142_display_image.jpg?1308021807
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-04-2017, 11:01 AM
Mike Anderson
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/014/158/56244142_display_image.jpg?1308021807
Indeed
Mike Anderson
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/014/158/56244142_display_image.jpg?1308021807
I don't consider him a "random scrub;" sure, he did little after leaving Denver, but that was partly because he consistently did enough BEFORE that to stick in Denver until almost 33. Can a former DRoY qualify as a scrub? The question's kind of a Catch 22, IMHO: The better any player is, the less likely he is to be considered a scrub.
aberdien
09-04-2017, 11:17 AM
He was a 6th round draft pick.
He was a 6th round draft pick.
So was Terrell Davis: He a "random scrub"?
That's going to be Abe's point - TD was obviously great and he was a sixth rounder - that one of these things is not like the other.
That's going to be Abe's point - TD was obviously great and he was a sixth rounder - that one of these things is not like the other.
Beware the false dichotomy: There's a world of room between "first ballot HoFer" and "random scrub;" half the NFL occupies that territory. That's the only good thing about a three-way QB controversy: It acknowledges non-Boolean answers.
Beware the false dichotomy: There's a world of room between "first ballot HoFer" and "random scrub;" half the NFL occupies that territory. That's the only good thing about a three-way QB controversy: It allows non-Boolean answers.
It's not a false dichotomy. One guy was great, the other guy wasn't. The sixth round argument works because Anderson produced like all the other random guys who were scrubs, whereas we saw what a truly great player behind that line looked like. Arguably twice, with Portis as well. If the other guys are scrubs, and the second sixth rounder is producing like them, and he didn't do much after, what does that tell you?
You could take it deeper and then go 'well, that's fair (as it is) but what if he did better than the other guys, wouldn't that make him less scrubby? ' And that would be fair, too. So, in comparison to the other RB's who weren't all that great and products of the system, how did Anderson do?
Again, the problem is that there's a full spectrum of options between "first ballot HoFer" and "random scrub," and that's where MOST players lie. Ask me which Anderson was and I'll say, "neither," because that's both the most likely answer for ANY NFL player and because it happens to be the ACTUAL answer in Andersons case. He didn't do much after he left his original team, but how many 33-year-old RBs have—even HoFers?
It's a false dichotomy simply because it IS a dichotomy, which is false when there are more than those two possibilities and they cover MOST players.
What I typed accounted for what you said. Essentially we know that a lot of RB's produced for us were scrubs, so compare the god tier production of TD and the other guys. You are really missing the point here.
Considering the fact that Anderson had two great years and the rest were pretty putrid, he sure fits the mold of a scrub that was made by a system.
tomjonesrocks
09-04-2017, 12:09 PM
Did Denver just cut the second coming of Kurt Warner?
Don't make dog tap the OP, man. ;)
Enquiring minds want to know! :protest:
tomjonesrocks
09-04-2017, 12:12 PM
Did Rahim "The Dream" Moore make the worst play in Broncos history?
My Answer - absolutely and it's not even close.
I don't think Dogfish want's the Sloter talk in this piece.
Who is the second best Broncos TE (all-time).
Krugan
09-04-2017, 12:30 PM
I don't think Dogfish want's the Sloter talk in this piece.
Who is the second best Broncos TE (all-time).
Riley Odoms
tomjonesrocks
09-04-2017, 12:38 PM
Riley Odoms
Yep - just don't ask who's 3rd or 4th best...it's not long before you get to Julius Thomas...
dogfish
09-04-2017, 12:46 PM
Did Rahim "The Dream" Moore make the worst play in Broncos history?
My Answer - absolutely and it's not even close.
yes. . . michael dean perry being too fat to get off the field is also up there, but moore's blunder was more egregious. . .
yes. . . michael dean perry being too fat to get off the field is also up there, but moore's blunder was more egregious. . .
Remember Sam Adams and his struggles. He went from the Bengals to the Broncos and man he got even worse.
tomjonesrocks
09-04-2017, 01:01 PM
Who was the Broncos best kick returner? :confused:
LawDog
09-04-2017, 01:02 PM
Did Rahim "The Dream" Moore make the worst play in Broncos history?
My Answer - absolutely and it's not even close.
He's our Billy Buckner...
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-04-2017, 01:03 PM
I don't think Dogfish want's the Sloter talk in this piece.
Who is the second best Broncos TE (all-time).
Clarence Kay.
dogfish
09-04-2017, 01:05 PM
Who was the Broncos best kick returner? :confused:
it would have to be rick upchurch, wouldn't it?
tomjonesrocks
09-04-2017, 01:05 PM
Clarence Kay.
Kay was strictly a blocker - albeit a damn good one.
2. Odoms 3. Carswell 4. Julius Thomas 5. Kay
Simple Jaded
09-04-2017, 01:07 PM
I agree that Mike Anderson was NOT a random scrub...like Juwan Thompson.
MOtorboat
09-04-2017, 01:08 PM
Who was the Broncos best kick returner? :confused:
Upchurch.
tomjonesrocks
09-04-2017, 01:08 PM
it would have to be rick upchurch, wouldn't it?
Upchurch admittedly precedes me - the stats seem clear he was the best. What went through my mind was - was Deltha O'Neal actually the best kick returner I've seen play for Denver?
The answer is Julius Thomas. He's the second most gifted TE we've ever had.
Simple Jaded
09-04-2017, 01:20 PM
The answer is Julius Thomas. He's the second most gifted TE we've ever had.
The answer is Riley Odoms.
I agree that Mike Anderson was NOT a random scrub...like Juwan Thompson.
Well, I'm not sure Thompson's good enough to equal Mike Anderson, but in the sense neither are scrubs, yes, they're alike. :)
it would have to be rick upchurch, wouldn't it?
yes, no doubt
Wait, are we talking about KR or PR?
Simple Jaded
09-04-2017, 02:22 PM
Well, I'm not sure Thompson's good enough to equal Mike Anderson, but in the sense neither are scrubs, yes, they're alike. :)
Ah, a carefully crafted display of willful ignorance.
dogfish
09-04-2017, 02:32 PM
Upchurch admittedly precedes me - the stats seem clear he was the best. What went through my mind was - was Deltha O'Neal actually the best kick returner I've seen play for Denver?
Wait, are we talking about KR or PR?
KR. . . upchurch was before my era also, but i've always just accepted that he was the best because of the way older fans and football people speak about him. . .
You guys remember Dre Bly? He was fun!
dogfish
09-04-2017, 02:55 PM
You guys remember Dre Bly? He was fun!
one of the many stiffs who tried to hold up across from champ bailey. . . i remember dennard walker, who had maybe the worst hands i've ever seen. . .
NightTrainLayne
09-04-2017, 03:41 PM
Out of all the random scrubs who got 1k yards in the Shanny system, which RB did you guys like the most?
Mike Anderson.
one of the many stiffs who tried to hold up across from champ bailey. . . i remember dennard walker, who had maybe the worst hands i've ever seen. . .
He was pretty good in Detroit. IIRC, he wasn't awful in Denver until the implosion at the very end.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-04-2017, 04:12 PM
Rick Upchurch is one of the best kick returners in the history of the game. He held the record for returns for a touchdown in a season (6) for two decades
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-04-2017, 04:18 PM
http://m.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/videos/Top-5-all-time-Broncos-STs-Rick-Upchurch/a5f10170-d781-4de2-b1ec-2cf61c959d8f
tomjonesrocks
09-04-2017, 05:03 PM
I like this thread. Dogfish - my apologies for reacting initially to derail it.
HORSEPOWER 56
09-04-2017, 05:27 PM
Upchurch admittedly precedes me - the stats seem clear he was the best. What went through my mind was - was Deltha O'Neal actually the best kick returner I've seen play for Denver?
Maybe O'Neal, but Trindon Holiday was pretty damned exciting when he wasn't fumbling. If that dude could've held on to the ball, he could've been another game changer like Devin Hester.
aberdien
09-04-2017, 11:20 PM
So was Terrell Davis: He a "random scrub"?
Maybe you are reading too much into the semantics of "random scrub" and should instead infer that King was asking about the RBs who were not household names and who mostly didn't do much beyond a couple of wonder seasons under Shanny.
Mike Anderson was a random 6th round pick who came out of nowhere and had 2 good seasons.
The fact that he was interchangeable with any other random RB makes it apparent as to what he was...
aberdien
09-04-2017, 11:24 PM
I always liked Tony Scheffler.
dogfish
09-04-2017, 11:51 PM
I like this thread. Dogfish - my apologies for reacting initially to derail it.
no worries, meng. . . and i apologize for snapping at you earlier-- that wasn't necessary, i deleted that shit. . .
:welcome:
dogfish
09-04-2017, 11:57 PM
Maybe O'Neal, but Trindon Holiday was pretty damned exciting when he wasn't fumbling. If that dude could've held on to the ball, he could've been another game changer like Devin Hester.
this was kinda my though, as well. . . in terms of just the most purely dangerous, exciting returner i've seen ind denver, it would have to be holliday. . . of course, he was obviously almost as scary to us as he was to them, but no doubt that little dude was a talented returner. . . his performance against baltimore in 2012 is one of the most amazing games i've ever seen one of our guys put up in the postseason. . . if he doesn't go nuts, rahim moore isn't even in a position to blow the game in epic fashion at the end. . .
we've pretty much been "blah" on the return teams ever since. . . would be nice if mckenzie can bring even a little bit of that spark back. . . it's fun having that kind of guy, because they can turn a game around at any moment. . .
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-04-2017, 11:57 PM
no worries, meng. . . and i apologize for snapping at you earlier-- that wasn't necessary, i deleted that shit. . .
:welcome:
I like it when you get emo dog. It makes me feel better about myself
dogfish
09-04-2017, 11:58 PM
I like it when you get emo dog. It makes me feel better about myself
yea, yea. . . go kick yourself in the nuts. . . :laugh:
Cugel
09-05-2017, 12:30 PM
I miss Julius Thomas.
So does Julius Thomas. Last two seasons he had 30 catches for 4 TDs and in 2015 it was 45 catches for 5 TDs. That comes out to about $1.5 M a TD reception. Not only does he not want to block, but minus Peyton Manning throwing to him he hasn't been very good.
MOtorboat
09-05-2017, 12:41 PM
Man, the Broncos could have used 9 TDs from one tight end spot the last two seasons. The entire unit had 5.
Cugel
09-05-2017, 05:54 PM
Man, the Broncos could have used 9 TDs from one tight end spot the last two seasons. The entire unit had 5.
You're right. However, they would prefer not to pay their TEs $9M a season to catch 4 or 5 TDs. He was offered around $8 M by the Broncos but he got around $9 in FA. Now he's getting a $7.1 M one-year guaranteed contract from the Dolphins for 2017. (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/miami-dolphins/julius-thomas-7848/)
If you're John Elway would you pay that?
"Thomas, 28, spent the last two seasons in Jacksonville. A major offseason signing in 2015, Thomas' reign with the Jaguars was mostly filled with injuries and underperformance. He recorded 30 receptions for 281 yards and four touchdowns in 2016 while limited to nine games. He missed 11 games due to injuries over the last two seasons."
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-05-2017, 06:03 PM
Thomas missed a lot of games due to injury? When did this happen?
HORSEPOWER 56
09-05-2017, 06:18 PM
Thomas missed a lot of games due to injury? When did this happen?
"It's so easy" to get paid while sitting in the tub or trainer's room.
sneakers
09-05-2017, 06:39 PM
I find it strange that Mars is populated entirely by robots sent there
MOtorboat
09-05-2017, 06:40 PM
You're right. However, they would prefer not to pay their TEs $9M a season to catch 4 or 5 TDs. He was offered around $8 M by the Broncos but he got around $9 in FA. Now he's getting a $7.1 M one-year guaranteed contract from the Dolphins for 2017. (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/miami-dolphins/julius-thomas-7848/)
If you're John Elway would you pay that?
Well, I believe there's northwards of $14 million of cap space just hanging around, so...
Well, I believe there's northwards of $14 million of cap space just hanging around, so...
What if I told you a single Bronco had as many TDs EACH of the last two years for HALF Miamis winning bid on Thomas? Because one did (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeC.00.htm), yet lots of people regularly complain that we pay him way too much for a guy who always misses half the season: He played one more game than Thomas did though. ;)
Peyton Manning made Dallas Clark an All Pro: We're supposed to be impressed Thomas had a couple good years with him and NO OTHER TIME?
MOtorboat
09-06-2017, 11:13 AM
What if I told you a single Bronco had as many TDs EACH of the last two years for HALF Miamis winning bid on Thomas? Because one did (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeC.00.htm), yet lots of people regularly complain that we pay him way too much for a guy who always misses half the season: He played one more game than Thomas did though. ;)
Peyton Manning made Dallas Clark an All Pro: We're supposed to be impressed Thomas had a couple good years with him and NO OTHER TIME?
*Jacksonville.
*CJ Anderson doesn't play tight end.
tripp
09-06-2017, 11:34 AM
Does Peyton Manning still live in Denver? Just saw a picture of him at the Rockies game
BeefStew25
09-06-2017, 11:54 AM
Does Peyton Manning still live in Denver? Just saw a picture of him at the Rockies game
My buddy in Aurora told me Peyton stays at an extended stay off Iliff when in town.
BeefStew25
09-06-2017, 11:55 AM
Remember Matt praters DUI? I don't think that got enough run.
*Jacksonville.
*CJ Anderson doesn't play tight end.
Right, Jacksonville; Miami was the one that whose bid for CJ forced us to pay him his worth because we tendered him too low. But 9 TDs over 20 games in 2 seasons are the same whether by a RB or TE. The only difference is CJs earlier breakout season didn't benefit nearly as much from Peyton Mannings handoffs as Thomas' did from Peyton Mannings passes. As I recall, a LOT of Broncos caught double digit TDs in 2013; Thomas just had the dumb luck to be in the right place at the right time.
MOtorboat
09-06-2017, 04:40 PM
Right, Jacksonville; Miami was the one that whose bid for CJ forced us to pay him his worth because we tendered him too low. But 9 TDs over 20 games in 2 seasons are the same whether by a RB or TE. The only difference is CJs earlier breakout season didn't benefit nearly as much from Peyton Mannings handoffs as Thomas' did from Peyton Mannings passes. As I recall, a LOT of Broncos caught double digit TDs in 2013; Thomas just had the dumb luck to be in the right place at the right time.
Cool. CJ Anderson still doesn't play tight end. The Broncos could have used 9 touchdowns from a TIGHT END the last two years. Lack of production from other spots is irrelevant to my comment.
Cool. CJ Anderson still doesn't play tight end. The Broncos could have used 9 touchdowns from a TIGHT END the last two years. Lack of production from other spots is irrelevant to my comment.
Yeah, OK, sure; the Broncos could've used 9 TDs from a punter last two years. Regardless, we had as many TDs in about as many games from a guy who cost half as much yet half the fanbase STILL say we overpaid for him because "he can't stay healthy." At a position that takes more punishment than any other. Hell, I just came from a thread where someone said his days are numbered just because we're paying a rookie UDFA half a million to be on our PS. Hell, Owen Daniels came within 2 TDs of matching Thomas his last two seasons and most people thought he was just a glorified blocking bum (though we don't win the 2015 AFCCG without him.)
Julius Thomas is nothing special, and the proof is that he was nothing before Manning and has been nothing since. If you want his 2013 numbers back, he'll have to bring 2013 Peyton Manning with him. I think we could and did find plenty of other TEs to ride a first ballot HoFers coattails for a fraction the cap space; I'd rather have Dreesen/Daniels and Green along with Ware and Ward than Thomas along with, say, Robert Ayers and Rahim Moore (and I LIKED Ayers, just not as a pass rusher.)
UnderArmour
09-07-2017, 07:01 AM
Yeah, OK, sure; the Broncos could've used 9 TDs from a punter last two years. Regardless, we had as many TDs in about as many games from a guy who cost half as much yet half the fanbase STILL say we overpaid for him because "he can't stay healthy." At a position that takes more punishment than any other. Hell, I just came from a thread where someone said his days are numbered just because we're paying a rookie UDFA half a million to be on our PS. Hell, Owen Daniels came within 2 TDs of matching Thomas his last two seasons and most people thought he was just a glorified blocking bum (though we don't win the 2015 AFCCG without him.)
Julius Thomas is nothing special, and the proof is that he was nothing before Manning and has been nothing since. If you want his 2013 numbers back, he'll have to bring 2013 Peyton Manning with him. I think we could and did find plenty of other TEs to ride a first ballot HoFers coattails for a fraction the cap space; I'd rather have Dreesen/Daniels and Green along with Ware and Ward than Thomas along with, say, Robert Ayers and Rahim Moore (and I LIKED Ayers, just not as a pass rusher.)
You're completely missing the point. Denver had 2 1000 yard receivers last year, but the offense basically shut down for stretches due to the lack of an interior passing game. Just as defenses can have glaring holes, offenses can have glaring holes too that can be exploited. Denver's offense has had a glaring hole at slot receiver and TE.
He may be "nothing special," but he's a hell of a lot better than anyone we've had since he left.
Hard to say if the guy is for real or not, because he's usually in the tub, Bortles is a garbage time QB, and the way he was used in Jacksonville was vastly different than Denver. Here, he got to be Jimmy Graham-lite, and never had to block. Gase will use him better this year, and Cutler is a great quarterback when it comes to keeping his 2nd/3rd options involved in the passing game. We'll get to see this year.
HORSEPOWER 56
09-07-2017, 08:06 AM
So, is it the lack of a TE, or is it the lack of attempts to get one the ball? Even after JT left, PFM still threw the ball to Owen Daniels - to great effect especially in the playoffs. Since TS has taken over, the TE production has dropped tremendously. Is it that we have no talented TEs or that they're rarely targeted? I think it's a little of both and more the latter. TS just doesn't throw to TEs much. In fact, outside of DT and ES, Sunshine is probably his favorite target even though he's on the field way less than guys like Latimer and Fowler. TS has his guys just like most QBs, and he just doesn't like throwing to the TEs.
So, is it the lack of a TE, or is it the lack of attempts to get one the ball? Even after JT left, PFM still threw the ball to Owen Daniels - to great effect especially in the playoffs. Since TS has taken over, the TE production has dropped tremendously. Is it that we have no talented TEs or that they're rarely targeted? I think it's a little of both and more the latter. TS just doesn't throw to TEs much. In fact, outside of DT and ES, Sunshine is probably his favorite target even though he's on the field way less than guys like Latimer and Fowler. TS has his guys just like most QBs, and he just doesn't like throwing to the TEs.
It could be that defenses are taking away the middle 10-15 yards of the field...essentially taking away the TE position. Same thing they did against Manning his last year.
And Denver didn't have a real slot receiver to draw any attention last year either, add in the oline that gave the QB little time and it is a pile of what we saw. Kubiak and Dennison could never figure a way to adapt their offense to what the defense was doing.
Hopefully the line has been fixed and McCoy has better offensive gameplans and can adapt when necessary.
BroncoWave
09-07-2017, 08:30 AM
Out of all the random scrubs who got 1k yards in the Shanny system, which RB did you guys like the most?
Tatum Bell.
BroncoWave
09-07-2017, 08:32 AM
Who was the Broncos best kick returner? :confused:
I'm surprised no one mentioned Darrien Gordon at all. I remember him being pretty good.
It could be that defenses are taking away the middle 10-15 yards of the field...essentially taking away the TE position. Same thing they did against Manning his last year.
And Denver didn't have a real slot receiver to draw any attention last year either, add in the oline that gave the QB little time and it is a pile of what we saw. Kubiak and Dennison could never figure a way to adapt their offense to what the defense was doing.
Hopefully the line has been fixed and McCoy has better offensive gameplans and can adapt when necessary.
Sorry, but I fear most Broncos fans are just weeks from realizing Kubiaks bland, unimaginative and predictable offenses the past two years got all they possibly could out of a group with a few bona fide stars but multiple fundamental and fatal flaws. Again, literally ALL the other offenses Kubiak EVER ran were multi-threat juggernauts that ably kept defenses guessing and consistently punished them even when they guessed right.
Even if that weren't so, it's not like any of McCoys offenses were ever revolutionary: He let Tebow be Tebow, Manning be Manning and Rivers be Rivers, essentially running his offenses the same way Shanny ran our D at the end of SB XXXII: "Keep doing whatever it is you've been doing so far." I REALLY hope the line's fixed, but problem's like that aren't fixed overnight. If Kubiak couldn't do it with a proven line coach like Dennison and two years trying, there's little chance Joseph and McCoy have done better in a few months.
You're right we've lacked a reliable slot receiver, but we've had guys who could and occasionally did fill that role. I still want DT and Fowler as big bodied bookends with Sanders back in the slot burning LBs, safeties and NBs. However, as long as our QB rarely has >2 seconds to scan the field and throw, it's enough for defenses to crowd the middle underneath: Nobody can get clear before the sack. Other than quick slants and outs (and heaven knows we've relied on them often enough, including under McCoy) there's not much you can do with the pass rush camped out in your backfield.
Julius Thomas' presence/absence changes none of that, except that Virgil Green actually blocks well for our passers and runners. Just not on three or four guys at once.
Hawgdriver
09-07-2017, 12:49 PM
Anyone remember Steve Russ? He was a college buddy.
MOtorboat
09-07-2017, 12:50 PM
Ah...this was all just about your man-crush on Kubiak...
That makes more sense now.
Tatum Bell.
You really have an eye for RB talent!!!
MOtorboat
09-07-2017, 01:20 PM
You really have an eye for RB talent!!!
I loved Tatum Bell.
I loved Tatum Bell.
I'm not surprised.
Sorry, but I fear most Broncos fans are just weeks from realizing Kubiaks bland, unimaginative and predictable offenses the past two years got all they possibly could out of a group with a few bona fide stars but multiple fundamental and fatal flaws. Again, literally ALL the other offenses Kubiak EVER ran were multi-threat juggernauts that ably kept defenses guessing and consistently punished them even when they guessed right.
Even if that weren't so, it's not like any of McCoys offenses were ever revolutionary: He let Tebow be Tebow, Manning be Manning and Rivers be Rivers, essentially running his offenses the same way Shanny ran our D at the end of SB XXXII: "Keep doing whatever it is you've been doing so far." I REALLY hope the line's fixed, but problem's like that aren't fixed overnight. If Kubiak couldn't do it with a proven line coach like Dennison and two years trying, there's little chance Joseph and McCoy have done better in a few months.
You're right we've lacked a reliable slot receiver, but we've had guys who could and occasionally did fill that role. I still want DT and Fowler as big bodied bookends with Sanders back in the slot burning LBs, safeties and NBs. However, as long as our QB rarely has >2 seconds to scan the field and throw, it's enough for defenses to crowd the middle underneath: Nobody can get clear before the sack. Other than quick slants and outs (and heaven knows we've relied on them often enough, including under McCoy) there's not much you can do with the pass rush camped out in your backfield.
Julius Thomas' presence/absence changes none of that, except that Virgil Green actually blocks well for our passers and runners. Just not on three or four guys at once.
I bet you have bodies buried on your property
MOtorboat
09-07-2017, 01:24 PM
I'm not surprised.
Please refer to my post in the "Things that suck" thread, directed at you yesterday.
Please refer to my post in the "Things that suck" thread, directed at you yesterday.
I saw that. What was that for?
BroncoWave
09-07-2017, 03:00 PM
You really have an eye for RB talent!!!
The question was who my favorite was, not who the best was. Try to keep up!
The question was who my favorite was, not who the best was. Try to keep up!
Okay, I'll try. But I think you have unreasonable expectations of me!!!
dogfish
09-07-2017, 03:06 PM
Anyone remember Steve Russ? He was a college buddy.
i don't. . . give us a little more info?
i don't. . . give us a little more info?
He was Hawg's college buddy.
MOtorboat
09-07-2017, 03:10 PM
I saw that. What was that for?
I forget. I'm sure you deserved it.
dogfish
09-07-2017, 03:16 PM
I loved Tatum Bell.
people were mad that he wasn't portis. . .
the guy was what he was, a change of pace back. . . he wasn't made to handle 300 touches, or be a short yardage hammer. . . he was tremendously effective at what he did, though. . . he had some years where his YPC was truly ridiculous. . . he was one of the fastest runners i have ever seen, he was a legit threat to rip off a big chunk play any time he had the ball. . . not just a guy with enough speed to hit a couple long runs a year when everything was blocked perfectly, either-- he had the kind of true speed to just run past guys and get the edge on a consistent basis. . . i never understood why people couldn't just accept that he wasn't a complete player, but that he had great value as a situational/rotational guy. . .
dogfish
09-07-2017, 03:18 PM
I saw that. What was that for?
I forget. I'm sure you deserved it.
sounds like drunken midget lash-out shenanigans to me. . .
BroncoWave
09-07-2017, 03:27 PM
I'll never forget the game Tatum Bell played against the Chargers after he came back from selling cell phones. I always liked him before that, but that really cemented how I felt about him as a player. I was a little surprised he never got another crack in the NFL after that.
MOtorboat
09-07-2017, 03:31 PM
sounds like drunken midget lash-out shenanigans to me. . .
I believe I was insulted first. Also not drunk. So...
dogfish
09-07-2017, 04:14 PM
I'll never forget the game Tatum Bell played against the Chargers after he came back from selling cell phones. I always liked him before that, but that really cemented how I felt about him as a player. I was a little surprised he never got another crack in the NFL after that.
he probably shouldn't have stolen rudi johnson's luggage. . . :heh:
BroncoWave
09-07-2017, 04:46 PM
he probably shouldn't have stolen rudi johnson's luggage. . . :heh:
Denver still signed him after that, correct? I'm pretty fuzzy on the timeline of how that all went down.
dogfish
09-07-2017, 05:12 PM
Denver still signed him after that, correct? I'm pretty fuzzy on the timeline of how that all went down.
i thought it was after, but i really don't remember for sure. . . either way, i don't think it exactly made GMs rush to get him in their locker rooms. . .
aberdien
09-07-2017, 05:23 PM
I'm surprised no one mentioned Darrien Gordon at all. I remember him being pretty good.
He was the only one I thought of but I was too lazy to type it out. I used to switch him to the Broncos on Madden.
aberdien
09-07-2017, 05:27 PM
Favorite QB post-Elway not named Manning?
dogfish
09-07-2017, 05:30 PM
Favorite QB post-Elway not named Manning?
i'm going with "none of the above" at the moment. . .
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-07-2017, 05:30 PM
Tatum never lacked effort. He was a good change of pace back. He also benefited from playing in Denver when the depth at the position sucked horribly
BroncoWave
09-07-2017, 05:33 PM
Favorite QB post-Elway not named Manning?
Jake Plummer, easily. I loved watching that guy play. It sucked when he kinda mailed it in after we picked Cutler, but the year he had when we went 13-3 was special.
aberdien
09-07-2017, 05:40 PM
i'm going with "none of the above" at the moment. . .
You have to build a franchise around one of our post-Elway non Manning QBs...who do you pick?
dogfish
09-07-2017, 05:46 PM
You have to build a franchise around one of our post-Elway non Manning QBs...who do you pick?
what does it matter? none of them ARE franchise QBs, so whoever you go with you're just going to be replacing in three or four years anyway. . . if you put a gun to my head, i would take mopey cutler, and try to pair with with an offensive-minded player's coach like adam gase or mike mccarthy. . .
BroncoWave
09-07-2017, 05:50 PM
Yeah, framing the question that way makes me lean more toward Cutler as well. Still like Plummer better, but if you are building a franchise and expecting to have this QB for 10+ years, Cutler is probably the way to go.
Why is Cutler the way to go? That guy is never gonna win anything, except maybe biggest baby.
MOtorboat
09-07-2017, 06:08 PM
Always Plummer.
BroncoWave
09-07-2017, 06:09 PM
Why is Cutler the way to go? That guy is never gonna win anything, except maybe biggest baby.
In terms of his overall career success, he's probably had the most of it of all the non-Manning post-Elway QBs. I'd take Plummer for one season, but if I had to plan the next 10 years around a guy, I'd probably have to hold my nose and take Cutler.
In terms of his overall career success, he's probably had the most of it of all the non-Manning post-Elway QBs. I'd take Plummer for one season, but if I had to plan the next 10 years around a guy, I'd probably have to hold my nose and take Cutler.
I would take Plummer. Jay could work security at the stadium, I guess.
I Eat Staples
09-07-2017, 07:02 PM
Cutler, easily. He looked like he was going to be the next big thing. His career ended up being pretty good, but not as good as it could have been. Who knows what might have happened if he stayed in Denver and we never hired that guy.
FanInAZ
09-07-2017, 07:27 PM
If we're going with Denver's best pre-Elway QB, my dad wouldn't hesitate to tell you that it was Craig Morton.
Worst, I'm 99.9% certain he'd say Norris Weese.
Simple Jaded
09-07-2017, 08:29 PM
Cutler, hands down.
NightTrainLayne
09-07-2017, 10:48 PM
people were mad that he wasn't portis. . .
the guy was what he was, a change of pace back. . . he wasn't made to handle 300 touches, or be a short yardage hammer. . . he was tremendously effective at what he did, though. . . he had some years where his YPC was truly ridiculous. . . he was one of the fastest runners i have ever seen, he was a legit threat to rip off a big chunk play any time he had the ball. . . not just a guy with enough speed to hit a couple long runs a year when everything was blocked perfectly, either-- he had the kind of true speed to just run past guys and get the edge on a consistent basis. . . i never understood why people couldn't just accept that he wasn't a complete player, but that he had great value as a situational/rotational guy. . .
I'm falling in love with you all over again.
UnderArmour
09-08-2017, 05:54 AM
Favorite QB post-Elway not named Manning?
FAVORITE? Tebow. Won a playoff game and was a critical part of the most exciting season outside of 2015.
Best? Jay Cutler.
I would rank my favorites:
1. Tebow - Playoff win, exciting season. Sure he brought a lot of undesirable people into our fan base, but the outside noise aside, it was the first time since the 2005-mini-run that I was actually excited about my team again. Between Hurricane McDumbass coming in and trading off Hillis, Scheffler, a 1st rounder that later became Earl Thomas, Cutler, Marshall, then losing our first stable DC in years in Mike Nolan, and then continually just losing, Tebow's 2011 year marked the team finally climbing out of football purgatory. Tebow erased the ghost of McDaniels from the team and fanbase's psyche, so I'll always be a fan.
2. Plummer - Playoff win, took us to the playoffs 4 years in a row(mostly to get blown out). Chill dude even if he can't convert 3rd downs or pass inside the pocket.
3. Cutler - Best arm, kept us in/took over games where our defense was absolute trash. Just an exciting quarterback to watch when he was "hot"
4. Orton - He came in, went 6-0 and looked like he was going to only be a slight drop off from Cutler. He had good rapport with Brandon Marshall, and knew how to get him the ball. Loved watching him just toss the ball in the air to Brandon Lloyd and magic happening. He had some great moments, but ultimately never had the "it" factor.
5. Griese - How the hell you gonna trip over your dog?
You have to build a franchise around one of our post-Elway non Manning QBs...who do you pick?
Well if the question is "Favorite" I'm with Dog - none of the above.
If I have to build a franchise around one of them, it's not Cutler or Plummer, who both had shit work ethics. Give me Siemian, who at least is an over achiever. Or Tebow, for the same reason.
Simple Jaded
09-08-2017, 09:30 PM
The only thing Tebow erased was 5 decades of NFL evolution.
UnderArmour
09-08-2017, 09:49 PM
The only thing Tebow erased was 5 decades of NFL evolution.
The only thing Tebow erased was his own NFL career with his complete ineptitude at making NFL reads and throws. But, the guy was a competitor and did what it took to win, and had too much respect for his teammates to let them down come 4th quarter. That's why he's among my favorites. Guy sucks, and KC, New England, and Buffalo figured his game out pretty quick. Luckily, Pittsburgh got overconfident, but man what a glorious run.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-08-2017, 09:58 PM
The only thing Tebow erased was 5 decades of NFL evolution.
Five years of evolution? Isn't that like saying a full glass of ocean?
Simple Jaded
09-09-2017, 10:10 PM
Five years of evolution? Isn't that like saying a full glass of ocean?
Five decades.
Al Wilson 4 Mayor
09-09-2017, 11:06 PM
Five decades.
Who loves ya dude?
Simple Jaded
09-09-2017, 11:30 PM
Who loves ya dude?
You're drunk.
Cugel
09-10-2017, 09:23 AM
You have to build a franchise around one of our post-Elway non Manning QBs...who do you pick?
That's the toughest trivia question ever. There's no good answer really. Cutler was the only one of them who was really an elite prospect, but we all know how he turned out. Plummer reached his ceiling in 2005. He was the Broncos Alex Smith - good enough to look good and win some games in the pre-season, but not good enough to win in the playoffs. Teams figured out how to defense Plummer, by denying him his roll-outs and forcing him to throw from the pocket. He couldn't do that effectively.
You have to remember among all the revisionist history that Shanahan was not a bad coach. He drafted Cutler for a reason, and it wasn't because he could have won a SB with Plummer. He realized that would never happen after losing the AFC Championship game. They needed a new QB. Cutler just turned out to have a personality defect that prevented him from realizing on his astounding talent.
Since Paxton has proven to be a bust, there's nobody but Trevor to pick. I would be stuck with him by default. He's probably not great, but we aren't sure yet and we're pretty sure about all the others.
But, of course, Elway isn't stuck with the QBs on the roster. He can and will go out in next years' draft and draft a QB if Trevor doesn't have a really, really good year!
Cugel
09-10-2017, 09:30 AM
I kinda figured some idiot would pick Tebow, but whatever. :rolleyes:"10% never get the word." J.F.K.
aberdien
09-10-2017, 09:54 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJTH2BfU8AAZ2ba.jpg
UnderArmour
09-10-2017, 12:49 PM
That's the toughest trivia question ever. There's no good answer really. Cutler was the only one of them who was really an elite prospect, but we all know how he turned out. Plummer reached his ceiling in 2005. He was the Broncos Alex Smith - good enough to look good and win some games in the pre-season, but not good enough to win in the playoffs. Teams figured out how to defense Plummer, by denying him his roll-outs and forcing him to throw from the pocket. He couldn't do that effectively.
You have to remember among all the revisionist history that Shanahan was not a bad coach. He drafted Cutler for a reason, and it wasn't because he could have won a SB with Plummer. He realized that would never happen after losing the AFC Championship game. They needed a new QB. Cutler just turned out to have a personality defect that prevented him from realizing on his astounding talent.
Since Paxton has proven to be a bust, there's nobody but Trevor to pick. I would be stuck with him by default. He's probably not great, but we aren't sure yet and we're pretty sure about all the others.
But, of course, Elway isn't stuck with the QBs on the roster. He can and will go out in next years' draft and draft a QB if Trevor doesn't have a really, really good year!
I honestly think had Cutler been in Denver for the last decade, Denver still wins a Super Bowl. I am looking forward to watching the Dolphins play this year, because it will be the first time in Cutler's career since he left Denver that he is surrounded by competent talent in all the key spots on OLine, at receiver, and at RB. Cutler never had that in Chicago.
Shanahan's absolute crap choice in nepotist defensive coordinators after Larry Coyer doomed him, and his complete inability to build a secondary or pass rush in the draft or free agency, or even identify defensive talent period just set the team up for failure. But man, he had some firepower on offense his last year if you take away the whole having to start 7 different RBs situation.
I kinda figured some idiot would pick Tebow, but whatever. :rolleyes:"10% never get the word." J.F.K.
Well, Josh McDaniels did, and the league didn't get to see that play out. Even McDaniels wasn't about to put the guy into the game until he could execute a passing offense at an appropriate passing percentage. At the end of his rookie year, we saw a preview of what McDaniels/McCoy had in store for him, which was a bunch of screen passes. Fox completely went away from that.
Building a team around Tebow isn't viable, because defenses caught up to run-based quarterback schemes. Kaepernick and Griffin III aren't on rosters because teams figured out the read-option nonsense pretty quickly. With Tebow's build, he's more of a power runner, so had Elway absolutely had to keep him as the centerpiece for 2-3 more years then it is unlikely teams could shut us down the same way. Looking at what has happened to Andrew Luck though, is an offensive coordinator really going to continually place their "face-of-the-franchise" quarterback in harm's way? Then what do you do if the guy gets a ruptured spleen? You drew up all these plays and built an entire offense around ONE player's skill-set, so to even think about managing a guy like Tebow you would need a phenomenal offensive coaching staff to maximize and adjust in the event the guy went out plus to teach Tebow how to throw a football at the NFL level.
Simple Jaded
09-10-2017, 01:22 PM
If Shanatan let's the Plummer/Cutler sitch play out, like GB did with Favre, Shanatan never loses the locker room and his job. I was calling for his job in '99 when his GM's awful drafts started killing his HC's results, but he found his way towards the end. All they needed to do was fix the defense, where the '09-'11 drafts were strong.
I made the statement that the Broncos fired Shanatan 5 years too late and I still believe that, he was getting his second wind as a GM until the HC finally screwed the GM, instead of the other way around.
Cutler was the better player from the start but he wasn't ready to lead, especially in Plummer's shoes. This is another example of "the 1st rnd QB has to be a starter in his first 2 seasons or he's a bust" being stupid, even 10 years ago. Sometimes they're ready to hit the ground running (Prescott) but most times you have to be patient and let it play out.
Drafting Cutler was smart, taking Plummer's team away from him was stupid. You can't force leadership, even if you're a born leader, you have to let it happen.
UnderArmour
09-10-2017, 01:31 PM
If Shanatan let's the Plummer/Cutler sitch play out, like GB did with Favre, Shanatan never loses the locker room and his job. I was calling for his job in '99 when his GM's awful drafts started killing his HC's results, but he found his way towards the end. All they needed to do was fix the defense, where the '09-'11 drafts were strong.
I made the statement that the Broncos fired Shanatan 5 years too late and I still believe that, he was getting his second wind as a GM until the HC finally screwed the GM, instead of the other way around.
Cutler was the better player from the start but he wasn't ready to lead, especially in Plummer's shoes. This is another example of "the 1st rnd QB has to be a starter in his first 2 seasons or he's a bust" being stupid, even 10 years ago. Sometimes they're ready to hit the ground running (Prescott) but most times you have to be patient and let it play out.
Drafting Cutler was smart, taking Plummer's team away from him was stupid. You can't force leadership, even if you're a born leader, you have to let it happen.
Shanahan NEVER lost the locker room. He just had an absolute trash defense that couldn't stop anything. Cutler never had leadership issues in Denver either, guy actually played through a season for us with undiagnosed diabetes and had lost like 20-30 pounds during the year.
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 01:38 PM
Man, people still opining for Cutler. Lol.
UnderArmour
09-10-2017, 02:20 PM
Man, people still opining for Cutler. Lol.
Bruh, I've been opining for Cutler since he was drafted. Not my fault Hurricane McDumbass came in and kicked him out of town (or pissed him off so much he asked to leave).
Man, people still opining for Cutler. Lol.
He just needs time to jell.
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 02:27 PM
Bruh, I've been opining for Cutler since he was drafted. Not my fault Hurricane McDumbass came in and kicked him out of town (or pissed him off so much he asked to leave).
I'm aware of your posts. And they still make me laugh.
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 02:28 PM
He just needs time to jell.
Doesn't Tebow have the same number of playoff starts as Cutler? Man, that guy is SO good.
Doesn't Tebow have the same number of playoff starts as Cutler? Man, that guy is SO good.
Is this the deep thoughts thread or the deep throat Cutler thread?
Im confused.
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 02:31 PM
Is this the deep thoughts thread or the deep throat Cutler thread?
Im confused.
Three straight playoff race collapses wasn't enough for some people.
Bruh, I've been opining for Cutler since he was drafted. Not my fault Hurricane McDumbass came in and kicked him out of town (or pissed him off so much he asked to leave).
Word. The Boy Genius wanted to replace Cutler with Cassel, and when his mentor sent Cassel to KC instead, tried to replace Cutler with Orton and Tebow. Anyone who thinks Cutler wouldn't have done more than both of them combined is just bitter over situations Cutler didn't create.
Three straight playoff race collapses wasn't enough for some people.
He will be better next year.
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 02:33 PM
Cutler started getting pissy before McDaniels was even hired. And nothing in the next eight seasons indicates Cutler would have done anything more in Denver.
He is not built to win, he is built to pout.
UnderArmour
09-10-2017, 02:39 PM
I'm aware of your posts. And they still make me laugh.
I'm aware of your posts too, but not really aware of your positions. Frankly, just seems like you prefer to take smug stances and you avoid endorsing specific players/coaches across the board. Honestly, you're against a lot of things, but I really never figured out what or who you've ever been for.
Were you a Plummer die-hard? Did you enjoy those 3-and-outs when Plummer couldn't roll out of the pocket? Al Wilson having to bail him out, but then having no chance when we faced a team like the Colts that could just overwhelm our lack of depth in the secondary? Were you on team Orton? Did you prefer uninspired 4th quarter play and never going down kicking-and-screaming?
I sat through the same bullshit you did, and when watching the team play under Plummer and Orton knowing we had no chance if the game got close in the 4th quarter, it pissed me off. Cutler had 4th quarter magic. Tebow had 4th quarter magic. Manning had 1st-4th quarter magic, but nobody's arguing about that. Brock had 4th quarter magic. Those are the players I like, and I'm not too smug to openly say it.
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 02:41 PM
I'm aware of your posts too, but not really aware of your positions. Frankly, just seems like you prefer to take smug stances and you avoid endorsing specific players/coaches across the board. Honestly, you're against a lot of things, but I really never figured out what or who you've ever been for.
Were you a Plummer die-hard? Did you enjoy those 3-and-outs when Plummer couldn't roll out of the pocket? Al Wilson having to bail him out, but then having no chance when we faced a team like the Colts that could just overwhelm our lack of depth in the secondary? Were you on team Orton? Did you prefer uninspired 4th quarter play and never going down kicking-and-screaming?
I sat through the same bullshit you did, and when watching the team play under Plummer and Orton knowing we had no chance if the game got close in the 4th quarter, it pissed me off. Cutler had 4th quarter magic. Tebow had 4th quarter magic. Manning had 1st-4th quarter magic, but nobody's arguing about that. Brock had 4th quarter magic. Those are the players I like, and I'm not too smug to openly say it.
Cutler had fourth quarter magic? Good grief.
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 02:44 PM
Seven game winning drives in 37 games with the Broncos. Tebow had six in one damn season.
And I hate Tebow.
Do you guys remember when Tebow won a playoff game in Denver but Cutler didn't?
UnderArmour
09-10-2017, 02:53 PM
Cutler had fourth quarter magic? Good grief.
In Cutler's first game, he had a go-ahead 4th quarter TD drive against the Seahawks: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=261203007
Year 1 as starter:
Cutler's season opener the next year, last second field goal win: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=270909002
Cutler's next game, 4th quarter tie game and OT field goal drive: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=270916007
Vs. Pittsburgh: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=271021007
Vs. Green Bay (Gets us to overtime, loses to first drive TD): http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=271029007
Vs. Minnesota http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=271230007
Year 2 as full time starter:
Eddie Royal for 2 shootout: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=280914007
Vs. Cleveland: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=281106005
Vs. Atlanta: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=281116001
Vs. Kansas City: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=281207007
I mean damn dude. Your memory is ridiculously selective, and that makes me laugh. You can't really have 4th quarter magic when the game is out of reach either, so don't even start pulling that crap.
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 02:58 PM
In Cutler's first game, he had a go-ahead 4th quarter TD drive against the Seahawks: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=261203007
Year 1 as starter:
Cutler's season opener the next year, last second field goal win: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=270909002
Cutler's next game, 4th quarter tie game and OT field goal drive: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=270916007
Vs. Pittsburgh: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=271021007
Vs. Green Bay (Gets us to overtime, loses to first drive TD): http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=271029007
Vs. Minnesota http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=271230007
Year 2 as full time starter:
Eddie Royal for 2 shootout: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=280914007
Vs. Cleveland: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=281106005
Vs. Atlanta: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=281116001
Vs. Kansas City: http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=281207007
I mean damn dude. Your memory is ridiculously selective, and that makes me laugh. You can't really have 4th quarter magic when the game is out of reach either, so don't even start pulling that crap.
The Broncos lost the first game you linked to. I didn't click on the rest of them after that.
The Broncos lost the first game you linked to. I didn't click on the rest of them after that.
Winning is overrated.
UnderArmour
09-10-2017, 03:00 PM
The Broncos lost the first game you linked to. I didn't click on the rest of them after that.
What does "go-ahead" mean in your language?
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 03:01 PM
Winning is overrated.
"Fourth-quarter magic" in losses is some special stuff.
"Fourth-quarter magic" in losses is some special stuff.
Like pulling a rabbit out of your hat, but it shits all over you
UnderArmour
09-10-2017, 03:03 PM
"Fourth-quarter magic" in losses is some special stuff.
It's a good thing Cutler played defense, and could go out and make game-saving tackles after he put the team ahead... :coffee:
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 03:21 PM
It's a good thing Cutler played defense, and could go out and make game-saving tackles after he put the team ahead... :coffee:
In the last six games of 2007 and the last six games of 2008, the Broncos went 4-8. He averaged 259 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT per game, while only getting sacked one time per game. It's OK. But it's not magic. And the record in late-season games certainly isn't magic. I know people fell in love with the big arm, but he's nothing but a mediocre NFL quarterback, which (because we always have to do this), means he's one of the best people at playing quarterback in the world and could play quarterback better than 99.999999999999 percent of anyone who has ever lived. But that doesn't make him a magical quarterback in the NFL. It's hard to be one of the 32.
UnderArmour
09-10-2017, 03:23 PM
In the last six games of 2007 and the last six games of 2008, the Broncos went 4-8. He averaged 259 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT per game, while only getting sacked one time per game. It's OK. But it's not magic. And the record in late-season games certainly isn't magic. I know people fell in love with the big arm, but he's nothing but a mediocre NFL quarterback, which (because we always have to do this), means he's one of the best people at playing quarterback in the world and could play quarterback better than 99.999999999999 percent of anyone who has ever lived. But that doesn't make him a magical quarterback in the NFL. It's hard to be one of the 32.
You managed to completely miss the point. Thanks.
No one wanted the magic until they were desperate.
Do you guys remember when that guy gave up his season tickets because wr traded a mediocre QB?
lol
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 03:27 PM
You managed to completely miss the point. Thanks.
What point? That you can find 10 games where he was good in the fourth quarter? That you refuse to assign any blame on him for Denver's lack of success under him? I'm getting your points, just fine.
UnderArmour
09-10-2017, 03:30 PM
What point? That you can find 10 games where he was good in the fourth quarter? That you refuse to assign any blame on him for Denver's lack of success under him? I'm getting your points, just fine.
Tebow had a defense. Cutler did not. Cutler, when given a set of circumstances to be a difference maker in the 4th quarter, did. Both Shanahan and McDaniels were fired because of how crap our defense was. Fox was hired in large part to fix the defense.
You followed the team, so can you please avoid acting stupid to try and prove whatever ridiculous point you're trying to make?
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 03:33 PM
Tebow had a defense. Cutler did not. Cutler, when given a set of circumstances to be a difference maker in the 4th quarter, did. Both Shanahan and McDaniels were fired because of how crap our defense was. Fox was hired in large part to fix the defense.
You followed the team, so can you please avoid acting stupid to try and prove whatever ridiculous point you're trying to make?
Well. I have an entire careers worth of evidence to tell you Cutler was a mediocre quarterback. And Denver's collapses under him and Shanahan weren't all the defense. So, I'm not acting stupid. I appear to be the only one that would assign blame for those failures across the board, rather than excusing mediocre quarterback play.
McDaniels was a disaster, but I don't think it had much to do with trading Cutler. That's just an opinion, but an opinion based on watching Cutler for 10 seasons.
UnderArmour
09-10-2017, 03:52 PM
Well. I have an entire careers worth of evidence to tell you Cutler was a mediocre quarterback. And Denver's collapses under him and Shanahan weren't all the defense. So, I'm not acting stupid. I appear to be the only one that would assign blame for those failures across the board, rather than excusing mediocre quarterback play.
McDaniels was a disaster, but I don't think it had much to do with trading Cutler. That's just an opinion, but an opinion based on watching Cutler for 10 seasons.
Cutler wasn't in Denver for an entire career, and he certainly wasn't a mediocre quarterback under us. There's a reason we had multiple offers of 2 first round picks and change for the guy, and there was a reason we traded up to get him in the first place. I've followed the Bears quite a bit since he left, and that's a separate conversation, but our front office certainly would have made sure the man had a real left tackle and not guys like J-Webb Nation or Bushrod.
The collapses under Shanahan may not have all been the defense, but because the team was built entirely around one side of the ball, if the offense stalled at all the team was completely screwed. The defense for a few years with the Browncos front 4 and Al Wilson, Ian Gold, and DJ Williams actually had enough talent to keep the team competitive, but by the time Cutler took the reigns there was nothing left. Al Wilson's career was over. Our front 4 was worse than ever (John Engleberger, as a starter, really?). Cutler won games on his arm, but you're right in that he also lost games on his arm. That's just bound to happen in a young quarterback that knows they have to make plays to compensate for a crap team around him.
He has always been a gunslinger, and he could swing entire games with his arm if the game was close enough to do it, which he definitely did for us.
I'm not putting Cutler in the same class as Peyton, but for most of Cutler's career, including with us, he was every bit the tier of franchise quarterback as a Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, or Matthew Stafford in the regular season.
Cugel
09-10-2017, 03:54 PM
Well. I have an entire careers worth of evidence to tell you Cutler was a mediocre quarterback. And Denver's collapses under him and Shanahan weren't all the defense. So, I'm not acting stupid. I appear to be the only one that would assign blame for those failures across the board, rather than excusing mediocre quarterback play.
McDaniels was a disaster, but I don't think it had much to do with trading Cutler. That's just an opinion, but an opinion based on watching Cutler for 10 seasons.
Everything worked out like a divine plan. McMoron tries to trade Cutler for Matt Cassel even up and fails. Keeping Cutler would have saved his job, but he preferred Kyle Orton and Tebow. So, he was shipped out in his second season. That saved the franchise.
Then the magic part. John Elway comes in to rescue the franchise, and hires John Fox to put an adult in charge. And then he drafts Von Miller, his once-in-a-generation Hall of Fame player, with the #2 pick of the draft, a pick he would never have had if McMoron hadn't sabotaged the team the season before. Then he convinces Peyton Manning to come here. The rest is history.
Cutler had some good seasons, fans conveniently forget. It's when he got to the playoffs that we saw the real Jay in the biggest situations - like the NFC Championship game where he sat out the 2nd half after he tweaked his knee.
Fans remember that, and call him a quitter. Fine. He doesn't have the heart of a champion. He pouts and argues with teammates. He's not a franchise QB. Agreed.
But, that game was in the playoffs. During the regular season he has had some fine years offensively. And nobody is counting on Cutler to be the man either. He is just a guy to hold down the fort until they can get somebody else better. He's not the franchise QB. In that limited role he would be quite valuable, because he can make the occasional play.
If McMoron hadn't been in such a hurry to ship him out, he would have stayed at least 1 year, and that would have won more games for McMoron than the 8 he won with Orton.
Simple Jaded
09-10-2017, 04:02 PM
After everything Cutler did for you MO/Slim? Smh
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 04:04 PM
After everything Cutler did for you MO/Slim? Smh
Define "everything."
Everything worked out like a divine plan. McMoron tries to trade Cutler for Matt Cassel even up and fails.
C'mon, Belicheat (or anyone else) would've taken that trade in a second: McDumbass tried to do a three-way trade with NE* AND the Lions, Cutler for Cassel AND the #1 overall pick, a trade NO ONE would take. And anyone but the Boy Genius knew that without asking, but he thought he had this special relationship with Belicheat and was soooo much smarter than aaaaall 30 other GMs that he could pull it off before Cutler even found out McDumbass was lying to his face about trade rumors.
The hubris in that attempted maneuver is matched only by the magnitude of its failure. I mean, he didn't just get a "no," he went from having a Pro Bowl alternate QB and bargaining for more to being FORCED to trade that QB for Kyle freakin' Orton and enough 1st rounders to at least try to break even, much less get ahead.
The guy was a screw up, which I can forgive if not excuse, but he was an arrogant, belligerent, dictatorial dishonest screw up. He lacked even the grace to admit he hadn't instantly mastered a very complex job he'd never done before: Instead, he lashed out at his players and the media like the petulant child he was, then proceeded to cheat his way to a 4-12 season. Imagine Ryan Leaf as a HC instead of QB and you'll have Josh McDaniels.
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 04:06 PM
Everything worked out like a divine plan. McMoron tries to trade Cutler for Matt Cassel even up and fails. Keeping Cutler would have saved his job, but he preferred Kyle Orton and Tebow. So, he was shipped out in his second season. That saved the franchise.
Then the magic part. John Elway comes in to rescue the franchise, and hires John Fox to put an adult in charge. And then he drafts Von Miller, his once-in-a-generation Hall of Fame player, with the #2 pick of the draft, a pick he would never have had if McMoron hadn't sabotaged the team the season before. Then he convinces Peyton Manning to come here. The rest is history.
Cutler had some good seasons, fans conveniently forget. It's when he got to the playoffs that we saw the real Jay in the biggest situations - like the NFC Championship game where he sat out the 2nd half after he tweaked his knee.
Fans remember that, and call him a quitter. Fine. He doesn't have the heart of a champion. He pouts and argues with teammates. He's not a franchise QB. Agreed.
But, that game was in the playoffs. During the regular season he has had some fine years offensively. And nobody is counting on Cutler to be the man either. He is just a guy to hold down the fort until they can get somebody else better. He's not the franchise QB. In that limited role he would be quite valuable, because he can make the occasional play.
If McMoron hadn't been in such a hurry to ship him out, he would have stayed at least 1 year, and that would have won more games for McMoron than the 8 he won with Orton.
What, in anything Cutler did, makes you think your last sentence is anywhere near true? He has a career win-loss record under .500.
Simple Jaded
09-10-2017, 04:08 PM
Define "everything."
I'm still trying to figure that one out.
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 04:08 PM
I don't know...beats me. Three seasons out of 11 where he won more than he lost. But I'm sure that was his defense's fault.
NightTrainLayne
09-10-2017, 04:09 PM
Man Dogfish is gonna be all kinds of pissed when he sees the mess ya'll made out of his thread.
Simple Jaded
09-10-2017, 04:12 PM
Man Dogfish is gonna be all kinds of pissed when he sees the mess ya'll made out of his thread.
My post was a deep thought, this is MO/slim fault, they should pay a sig penalty.
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 04:19 PM
My post was a deep thought, this is MO/slim fault, they should pay a sig penalty.
Whoa. Let's not go overboard here.
Slick
09-10-2017, 04:25 PM
Eff Jhey Cutler! He called a 6 ffs!
We may be a 6, but he is a 3.
After everything Cutler did for you MO/Slim? Smh
He is the greatest.
I apologize for inpying less
Timmy!
09-10-2017, 07:53 PM
I like nachos
I like nachos
Everyone likes nachos, except Gay Cutler.
UnderArmour
09-10-2017, 08:11 PM
I like nachos
Jay Cutler makes good nachos, but you wouldn't want to open a Mexican restaurant around him because he's known to affect a cooking staff in other areas, as other Mexican entrees out of the Cutler kitchen such as enchiladas, quesadillas, and tacos have come out sub par. Don't get me wrong, he has great nachos, which we know he has been directly involved in, but because the kitchen around him has sent out some other bad dishes that he hasn't been involved in, he's a mediocre-at-best nacho chef.
Simple Jaded
09-10-2017, 09:03 PM
Whoa. Let's not go overboard here.
You have to post a link to one of my bulletproof arguments against running from the Shitgun in your sig, Dog's rules.
MOtorboat
09-10-2017, 09:08 PM
You have to post a link to one of my bulletproof arguments against running from the Shitgun in your sig, Dog's rules.
Perfect. That doesn't exist.
:coffee:
Simple Jaded
09-10-2017, 09:23 PM
Perfect. That doesn't exist.
:coffee:
I'd dig one up for you but it's been a long weekend.
BeefStew25
09-11-2017, 12:56 AM
Tebow beat the Steelers.
FanInAZ
09-11-2017, 01:01 AM
Tebow beat the Steelers.
Demaryius Thomas beat the Steelers
Hawgdriver
09-11-2017, 01:06 AM
Joe Mays beat the Steelers
Valar Morghulis
09-11-2017, 03:28 AM
Joe Mays beat the Steelers
Willie Mays beat the Steelers
Jay Cutler makes good nachos, but you wouldn't want to open a Mexican restaurant around him because he's known to affect a cooking staff in other areas, as other Mexican entrees out of the Cutler kitchen such as enchiladas, quesadillas, and tacos have come out sub par. Don't get me wrong, he has great nachos, which we know he has been directly involved in, but because the kitchen around him has sent out some other bad dishes that he hasn't been involved in, he's a mediocre-at-best nacho chef.
That Worst Analogy of the Decade Trophy is mine: MINE, do you hear?! :mad:
dogfish
09-11-2017, 10:34 AM
Man Dogfish is gonna be all kinds of pissed when he sees the mess ya'll made out of his thread.
yea, this is why we can't have nice things. . . asshats aren't happy unless they have a stupid QB controversy to argue about. . . even if it is one that was settled a decade ago. . .
dogfish
09-11-2017, 11:00 AM
okay, an attempt to get this back on track. . .
in honor of cody latimer, and my deep suspicion of him returning kicks. . .
we've discussed the best returners in team history (honorable shout-out to kevin kasper!), but what about the worst? not counting holliday's fumbles, who made you groan when they were deep for a kick or punt? i was always underwhelmed by shanny's use of reuben droughns as a return man. . . i also hated it when they briefly tried DT back there early in his career. . . like, the dude is just too damn big-- it made him a really easy target for special teams scrubs to tee off on. . . thankfully, i think it only took him getting clown hammered a couple times before they took him off it. . .
okay, an attempt to get this back on track. . .
in honor of cody latimer, and my deep suspicion of him returning kicks. . .
we've discussed the best returners in team history (honorable shout-out to kevin kasper!), but what about the worst? not counting holliday's fumbles, who made you groan when they were deep for a kick or punt? i was always underwhelmed by shanny's use of reuben droughns as a return man. . . i also hated it when they briefly tried DT back there early in his career. . . like, the dude is just too damn big-- it made him a really easy target for special teams scrubs to tee off on. . . thankfully, i think it only took him getting clown hammered a couple times before they took him off it. . .
Remember Quan Cosby? "Not as long as I keep taking these!"
10994
UnderArmour
09-11-2017, 05:54 PM
okay, an attempt to get this back on track. . .
in honor of cody latimer, and my deep suspicion of him returning kicks. . .
we've discussed the best returners in team history (honorable shout-out to kevin kasper!), but what about the worst? not counting holliday's fumbles, who made you groan when they were deep for a kick or punt? i was always underwhelmed by shanny's use of reuben droughns as a return man. . . i also hated it when they briefly tried DT back there early in his career. . . like, the dude is just too damn big-- it made him a really easy target for special teams scrubs to tee off on. . . thankfully, i think it only took him getting clown hammered a couple times before they took him off it. . .
Recently, Jordan Norwood last year was pretty bad. 5 fumbles bad, 2 fumbles in a game bad. Now 2017 Team captain Aqib Talib even shoved him for his poor play:
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7543161/nor.0.gif
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7543151/norwood.0.gif
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