Northman Hottake

[Northman]

Just to be clear, this is not to be confused with "wanting" Denver to have a bad season but more of a "expecting" Denver to have a bad season.

But, despite some individuals attempts to sprinkle and spin fairy dust on what is going on with the team in terms of "SB" run there is just nothing going on today and with this team right now that backs up that claim.

Teams preparing for SB runs do not load up their QB roster with guys who are inexperienced/mediocre/projects. Teams preparing for SB runs do not cut veterans/leaders to go "younger".

Im quite ok that we are rebuilding, i get it. We need to find out what we have but our stable of QB's are not guys who can take us to the promise land. It would be a miracle if we can get 7 wins this year after overachieving last year.

There you go, hottake and sizzling. Enjoy!

[BroncoWave]

It's a lukewarm take at best. I agree that 7 wins or less seems likely. Although I was thinking this weeks ago, so welcome to the party! :D

[Cugel]

Denver is probably going to be prevented from going to the SB because Trevor isn't a top 10 QB and Tom Brady and Ben Roethlisberger are Hall of Famers. That was always going to be the case with Trevor inexperienced entering his 2nd season as a starter, and with a new rookie Head Coach and coaching staff, a brand new OL, and the worst schedule in the NFL this year.

The injury to Paxton doesn't change anything. Brock is not going to be on the team long term unless Paxton misses the season or something. He'll be cut when Paxton comes back. Brock's not in the mix to compete for a starting job here. That's Trevor's job. Period.

You'll hear Joseph say that soon enough.

[Tned]

Just to be clear, this is not to be confused with "wanting" Denver to have a bad season but more of a "expecting" Denver to have a bad season.

But, despite some individuals attempts to sprinkle and spin fairy dust on what is going on with the team in terms of "SB" run there is just nothing going on today and with this team right now that backs up that claim.

Teams preparing for SB runs do not load up their QB roster with guys who are inexperienced/mediocre/projects. Teams preparing for SB runs do not cut veterans/leaders to go "younger".

Im quite ok that we are rebuilding, i get it. We need to find out what we have but our stable of QB's are not guys who can take us to the promise land. It would be a miracle if we can get 7 wins this year after overachieving last year.

There you go, hottake and sizzling. Enjoy!

Again, outside of the three things I listed in the other thread, what are all these moves that indicate they are in "rebuild" mode?

[Northman]

Again, outside of the three things I listed in the other thread, what are all these moves that indicate they are in "rebuild" mode?

I just listed them in my original post here Tned. Nothing has backed up your claim that Denver is working towards competing for a trophy this year. NOTHING

[Jsteve01]

The only move that really surprised me was cutting TJ Ward. Where Elway really blew it was not shopping Ward earlier. Because when you start shopping and at the end of pre-season everybody knows if you don't get it done he's going to be a free agent. Nobody's going to give you much in that situation. As much as I'm not super excited about bringing Osweiler back, cutting slow der to bring in a veteran backup is probably the smart move giving the fact that Lynch can't go for a few weeks and Simeon to this point has shown himself to be very fragile. If there's one thing that we learned during Shanahan's tenure it is that you can't overvalue leadership especially from guys who are playing at a pro bowl level. I love the potential of Justin Simmons. He has far better ball skills than Ward. But he ain't the leader that boss is at this point in his career

[Tned]

I just listed them in my original post here Tned. Nothing has backed up your claim that Denver is working towards competing for a trophy this year. NOTHING

So, in other words, nothing other than those three tiny things I mentioned, and it really comes down to:

Cut Ward
Cut Sloter

That's not rebuilding. We both know that if they were in rebuild mode, they would have kept sloter and his $400k or so salary, because in rebuild mode you are going cheap, young and developing players. So, you are completely contradicting yourself.

Look at the case you are making here. You disagree with them that Simmons is a better starter than Ward is really what leads you to the conclusion they are rebuilding, because you and I both know, that if they are trying to win this year, there is NO WAY any team that thinks they are a playoff team would have Sloter as their backup. ONLY a rebuilding team would.

So, again, if I'm missing something, please help me understand all of the moves other than these two that lead you to conclude they are rebuilding. You can't, because it comes down to these two. One you disagree with, and the other you are contradicting yourself, because if they were in rebuild mode, then they would have kept Sloter. Releasing Sloter for a jouneyman vet as you backup is exactly what you do when you are NOT in rebuilt mode.

[Tned]

The only move that really surprised me was cutting TJ Ward. Where Elway really blew it was not shopping Ward earlier. Because when you start shopping and at the end of pre-season everybody knows if you don't get it done he's going to be a free agent. Nobody's going to give you much in that situation. As much as I'm not super excited about bringing Osweiler back, cutting slow der to bring in a veteran backup is probably the smart move giving the fact that Lynch can't go for a few weeks and Simeon to this point has shown himself to be very fragile. If there's one thing that we learned during Shanahan's tenure it is that you can't overvalue leadership especially from guys who are playing at a pro bowl level. I love the potential of Justin Simmons. He has far better ball skills than Ward. But he ain't the leader that boss is at this point in his career

They were probably hoping he would be healthy enough to take the field and then there might have been some takers. Or, if he could have proved he could stay healthy, the Broncos might have even kept him.

[Jsteve01]

I just listed them in my original post here Tned. Nothing has backed up your claim that Denver is working towards competing for a trophy this year. NOTHING

So, in other words, nothing other than those three tiny things I mentioned, and it really comes down to:

Cut Ward
Cut Sloter

That's not rebuilding. We both know that if they were in rebuild mode, they would have kept sloter and his $400k or so salary, because in rebuild mode you are going cheap, young and developing players. So, you are completely contradicting yourself.

Look at the case you are making here. You disagree with them that Simmons is a better starter than Ward is really what leads you to the conclusion they are rebuilding, because you and I both know, that if they are trying to win this year, there is NO WAY any team that thinks they are a playoff team would have Sloter as their backup. ONLY a rebuilding team would.

So, again, if I'm missing something, please help me understand all of the moves other than these two that lead you to conclude they are rebuilding. You can't, because it comes down to these two. One you disagree with, and the other you are contradicting yourself, because if they were in rebuild mode, then they would have kept Sloter. Releasing Sloter for a jouneyman vet as you backup is exactly what you do when you are NOT in rebuilt mode. great post. And honestly long-term I really really like the potential that Simmons brings as a ball-hawking free safety

[Northman]

That's not rebuilding. We both know that if they were in rebuild mode, they would have kept sloter and his $400k or so salary,

No Tned. They already had 2 young QB's so the fact they didnt keep Sloter does not mean they are not rebuilding. The fact they brought in Oz who only has 2 years of actual game experience under his belt and the fact that he was traded and cut by 2 separate teams means that he alone is still a project or hit his ceiling.


because in rebuild mode you are going cheap, young and developing players. So, you are completely contradicting yourself.

Brock is getting the league minimum with is only 300k more than Sloter so no, not contradicting myself but nice try.


Look at the case you are making here. You disagree with them that Simmons is a better starter than Ward is really what leads you to the conclusion they are rebuilding, because you and I both know, that if they are trying to win this year, there is NO WAY any team that thinks they are a playoff team would have Sloter as their backup. ONLY a rebuilding team would.

How do you jump from Simmons to Sloter? You make no sense here. If the Broncos were playing to win now they would keep the experience on the team yet they admitted it was about youth, not money. That is a clear signal that they are rebuilding, not going for a win now mentality.


So, again, if I'm missing something, please help me understand all of the moves other than these two that lead you to conclude they are rebuilding. You can't, because it comes down to these two. One you disagree with, and the other you are contradicting yourself, because if they were in rebuild mode, then they would have kept Sloter. Releasing Sloter for a jouneyman vet as you backup is exactly what you do when you are NOT in rebuilt mode.


Again, you are missing the point. Sloter/Brock/Lynch/Siemian doesnt matter. They are all young/inexperienced/projects so you can interchange the QB's and the issue is still there in terms of a "Win now" mantra. Denver is not playing to win a SB, they have done nothing to show they are. None of the QB's on this roster are good enough to lead them there.

[Tned]

Ok, so you are saying the only evidence of rebuild is cutting ward then. Right?

Or, cutting Ward, plus not having an elite QB. So, in your mind, what could they have done at the QB spot this off-season to be in "win now" mode vs. "rebuild" mode?

On not trying to be contrarian, I just can honestly not see what you are talking about as proof of rebuild.

[Timmy!]

10-6

[Northman]

Ok, so you are saying the only evidence of rebuild is cutting ward then. Right?

Or, cutting Ward, plus not having an elite QB. So, in your mind, what could they have done at the QB spot this off-season to be in "win now" mode vs. "rebuild" mode?

On not trying to be contrarian, I just can honestly not see what you are talking about as proof of rebuild.

They could of gone after Romo, they chose not too. They could of gone after Cutler, they chose not too. They could of offered a trade with another team but instead chose to stay with their young guys. They had no interest in winning now, its all about trying to set up for down the road. Cutting Ward was just another part of that plan. And thats all fine but lets just call it as it is.

[Simple Jaded]

10-6

#NostraTimmy!

[Joel]

This isn't the end of the world; it'll keep on turning, and the Broncos will keep on playing football. But so will the Browns, Jags, Lions and many other teams none of us envy. We're a worse team than 24 hours a go, and even the orangest glasses can't change that.

[Poet]

We tried to improve the line a lot - I think JFE assumed Lynch would get better. A lot better. He wasn't planning on TS as the starter again.

[Simple Jaded]

This is beginning to feel like My Favorite Non-SB Winning Season again.

[Northman]

We tried to improve the line a lot - I think JFE assumed Lynch would get better. A lot better. He wasn't planning on TS as the starter again.

Well, now he has his backup plan he just signed.

[Poet]

Well, now he has his backup plan he just signed.

We weird.

[ShaneFalco]

https://media.giphy.com/media/3og0IHx11gZBccA98c/giphy.gif

[Tned]

They could of gone after Romo, they chose not too. They could of gone after Cutler, they chose not too. They could of offered a trade with another team but instead chose to stay with their young guys. They had no interest in winning now, its all about trying to set up for down the road. Cutting Ward was just another part of that plan. And thats all fine but lets just call it as it is.

I'm sorry, I can't buy into not going after Romo or Cutler, two players that retired, as proof they are rebuilding.

It's not even clear at this point in their respective out of the NFL (oops, back in for Cutler) careers, they are better win now QBs than what we have. Not to mention, unless the interior learns how to pass block pretty soon, there is no way Romo would have lasted a season in Denver.

[Tned]

We tried to improve the line a lot - I think JFE assumed Lynch would get better. A lot better. He wasn't planning on TS as the starter again.

You really don't know that. We know VK was not planning TS being the starter again, you assume JFE feels the same way as you, vs. being true to what he said, which is he has two good, young QBs.

[Simple Jaded]

I'm pretty sure Elway preferred Lynch to step up, Tned.

[Tned]

I'm pretty sure Elway preferred Lynch to step up, Tned.

Hey, I said I wanted Lynch to take a huge leap and WIN the job. Kind of a no brainier with his physical tools.

Wanting Lynch to improve and giving him an opportunity to compete for the job is far different than King's repeated assertions about Elway's opinion of Siemian being the starter to the point that King asserted all training camp that if Lynch was even close to Siemian, then they would give him the job, because they didn't want TS to start and because ceilingatic differences or something to that effect.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Siemian hurt before the bye. Brent takes over and struggles mightily. Lynch put on IR and Mark Sanchez signed to back up Bert. Defense still can't stop the run and can't rush the passer as Von is triple teamed causing no-fly to become more like "turbulence". Broncos go 5-11.

#hottake.

[Simple Jaded]

Hey, I said I wanted Lynch to take a huge leap and WIN the job. Kind of a no brainier with his physical tools.

Wanting Lynch to improve and giving him an opportunity to compete for the job is far different than King's repeated assertions about Elway's opinion of Siemian being the starter to the point that King asserted all training camp that if Lynch was even close to Siemian, then they would give him the job, because they didn't want TS to start and because ceilingatic differences or something to that effect.

I think that's what I'm asserting too.

[Simple Jaded]

Siemian hurt before the bye. Brent takes over and struggles mightily. Lynch put on IR and Mark Sanchez signed to back up Bert. Defense still can't stop the run and can't rush the passer as Von is triple teamed causing no-fly to become more like "turbulence". Broncos go 5-11.

#hottake.
#JoshAllen2018

[Tned]

I think that's what I'm asserting too.

Everyone hoped the first round QB with all the physical tools would get better between year one and two win the starting job. Just like everyone hopes the 7th round pick, the starter of the Broncos plays great (oh wait, I guess that second one isn't true).

Regardless, it doesn't meant that because Lynch failed to make significant progress and it's still unclear if he can be an NFL starter that the Broncos are now rebuilding. The proposition makes no sense.

The Broncos are going to go out there an compete for a playoff spot, whether half the fans are happy about the QB starter or not. Let's face it. How many seasons since Elway has retired have the fans been anything close to unified in their feelings about the starting QB?

[Timmy!]

This is beginning to feel like My Favorite Non-SB Winning Season again.

Didn't that end up being a Superbowl winning season?

[Simple Jaded]

Didn't that end up being a Superbowl winning season?

Why yes, yes it did.

[BroncoWave]

The more I think about it, I think the QB move kinda proves the opposite of your point, North. If we were going full rebuild, why not keep Sloter around and see if you can develop him? Getting rid of him for an experienced vet backup who could actually come in and play shows me that they do want to win this season. Keeping Sloter around would have been more of a sign of a rebuild IMO.

[Cugel]

The more I think about it, I think the QB move kinda proves the opposite of your point, North. If we were going full rebuild, why not keep Sloter around and see if you can develop him? Getting rid of him for an experienced vet backup who could actually come in and play shows me that they do want to win this season. Keeping Sloter around would have been more of a sign of a rebuild IMO.

Sloter has ZERO to do with it. NOthing.

If John Elway thought that the 2017 Broncos were in "re-building mode" he would have hired Kyle Shanahan and named Paxton Lynch the starter, period. They would lose a lot of games with Lynch his first season, but Elway would urge fans to be patient - that the team was in a "re-building mode" but were confident that Lynch would figure it out and they would get back to their winning ways.

That is what rebuilding teams do. They cut ageing, high priced veterans and go with young and cheaper players.

Then he would have dumped salary by cutting other veterans or trading them.

The Super Bowl Defense would be dismantled and the highest paid players (other than Von Miller) would be traded. No point keeping older, high priced veterans when you aren't ready to compete right now, and are in re-building mode.

You aren't winning with those older guys any, which is why you are in a rebuilding mode, so you might as well put in the cheap young guys and let them gain experience. They can't lose any more than the old guys did, which was often.

Well, Denver did the OPPOSITE. Elway hired Vance Joseph who came in and immediately announced "we are having a re-boot, we are not re-building." That's how they feel about it. They want to win now.

"That's why they have Trevor as the QB. He's reliable. He doesn't make a lot of mental mistakes. He does what he's supposed to do out there and doesn't try and ad lib by running around trying to make a play. He hits his short to intermediate routes accurately.

All that stuff gives Elway hope they can compete for a Championship THIS season. Probably a ton of things would have to come together for Denver to have a realistic hope of a Super Bowl season. But it has happened:

Kurt Warner came to the Rams out of NFL Europe, and they went from 4-12 to 12-4 and Super Bowl Champions in one season. That's what every losing franchise is thinking at this time of year. Right before the season. IF everything broke right.

IF our QB started playing like Kurt Warner.
IF we got every lucky bounce like the Broncos did in 2015.
IF our Defense holds together, strengthens the weaknesses and strengths.
IF our offense is really productive and efficient.
IF above all we stay completely healthy, like the Broncos did in 1998.

THen it could happen. No reason to doubt now. That will come later by itself.

[Northman]

The more I think about it, I think the QB move kinda proves the opposite of your point, North. If we were going full rebuild, why not keep Sloter around and see if you can develop him? Getting rid of him for an experienced vet backup who could actually come in and play shows me that they do want to win this season. Keeping Sloter around would have been more of a sign of a rebuild IMO.

No Wave, just as i explained to Tned.

Sloter was a 3rd string QB. The Broncos already have 2 young QB's they are trying to groom, now they have added a journeyman project back into the fold. Sloter was expendable because the two guys ahead of him are the guys that the organization wants to be the future and concentrate on. If it was just Siemian and Sloter on this team than Sloter would of been kept in the scenario you are talking about.

[Tned]

No Wave, just as i explained to Tned.

Sloter was a 3rd string QB. The Broncos already have 2 young QB's they are trying to groom, now they have added a journeyman project back into the fold. Sloter was expendable because the two guys ahead of him are the guys that the organization wants to be the future and concentrate on. If it was just Siemian and Sloter on this team than Sloter would of been kept in the scenario you are talking about.

North, that really doesn't make much sense, but let's set that aside.

What exactly are the moves that you feel prove they are in rebuild mode vs. win now. Maybe break it down by position group.

[Northman]

North, that really doesn't make much sense, but let's set that aside.

What exactly are the moves that you feel prove they are in rebuild mode vs. win now. Maybe break it down by position group.

Dont really need to break it down to position, the reality is they are not going after veterans instead choosing to go with younger players with limited experience. Lets be real though, there is nothing wrong with rebuilding. I get it, John is looking at the long game.

[BroncoWave]

Dont really need to break it down to position, the reality is they are not going after veterans instead choosing to go with younger players with limited experience. Lets be real though, there is nothing wrong with rebuilding. I get it, John is looking at the long game.

Not going after veterans? Leary? Watson? Charles? Crick?

[Northman]

Not going after veterans? Leary? Watson? Charles? Crick?

Im not talking about broken down players or middle of the road players man. Come on!

[BroncoWave]

Im not talking about broken down players or middle of the road players man. Come on!

Some would have considered guys like Manning or Welker or Ware "broken down" when we signed them.

[Northman]

Some would have considered guys like Manning or Welker or Ware "broken down" when we signed them.

But Manning was still better than anyone we had at the time at the most important position on the team. Which is why despite my dislike or question marks with Romo and Cutler both would be huge upgrades at QB. Welker was a great support player but not the real difference maker at his position during his time in Denver. We already had a pair of great receivers when he got here. Charles is probably the most prominent vet we have signed but he is going to be running behind a very young Oline and thats if he can actually win the starting job against CJ.

[ShaneFalco]

Win the SB with one of the best defenses ever.

Let most of your talent walk away in FA while waiting for OZ to sign a contract. Lose Danny T, Malik.

Spend the next year realizing you screwed up by wasting time with oz.

now its "rebuild mode".

hey **** it, lets sign oz again.

And you gotta people wearing OZ avatars like he isnt responsible for screwing the whole thing up.

[Cugel]

Vance Joseph himself said when he was hired that it's a "reboot, not a rebuild". Nothing they've said or done since then has changed that at all. Especially not when they just named Trevor the starter because he was "more consistent."

Not, more exciting. Not more potential. More consistent, exactly what you need to win right now.

[slim]

10-6

This would make me happy.

[Tned]

This would make me happy.

So would a smiling wine drinker apparently.

[Jsteve01]

Not going after veterans? Leary? Watson? Charles? Crick?

Im not talking about broken down players or middle of the road players man. Come on! Leary was considered by many to be the best guard in free agency this year. They drafted what they felt to be the best left tackle in the draft rather than say a really good middle linebacker who many consider to be great value at that slot.

[Jsteve01]

And as much as we love the big Thumper safety given her history with guys like Dennis Smith and Steve Atwater, you really need a guy that solid in the passing game. I've heard it said that Simmons potential in the passing game is a ceiling of like a Darren Sharper. If you can have a free safety that generates 7 to 10 interceptions this season. That is huge.

[weazel]

Just to be clear, this is not to be confused with "wanting" Denver to have a bad season but more of a "expecting" Denver to have a bad season.

But, despite some individuals attempts to sprinkle and spin fairy dust on what is going on with the team in terms of "SB" run there is just nothing going on today and with this team right now that backs up that claim.

Teams preparing for SB runs do not load up their QB roster with guys who are inexperienced/mediocre/projects. Teams preparing for SB runs do not cut veterans/leaders to go "younger".

Im quite ok that we are rebuilding, i get it. We need to find out what we have but our stable of QB's are not guys who can take us to the promise land. It would be a miracle if we can get 7 wins this year after overachieving last year.

There you go, hottake and sizzling. Enjoy!

rebuilding team paying a linebacker 20 million a year

[Cugel]

No Wave, just as i explained to Tned.

Sloter was a 3rd string QB. The Broncos already have 2 young QB's they are trying to groom, now they have added a journeyman project back into the fold. Sloter was expendable because the two guys ahead of him are the guys that the organization wants to be the future and concentrate on. If it was just Siemian and Sloter on this team than Sloter would of been kept in the scenario you are talking about.

Simple. True. For this reason, fans will be looking for conspiracy theories. But, NFL teams might keep a developmental QB on the roster, but not 3 (Kelly as well). Sloter was just expendable because they have other guys they are looking to develop.

[nevcraw]

Major Mad respect for you and your opinions North but I actually look at this off-season as being pretty boringly transparent with the moves made and not at all an indication of tossing in the towel with the dreaded rebuild.
Here's why:

1. Elway Hires the coach he wanted who was dead set of keeping the defensive scheme intact. D coaches stayed in place save for Wade getting ousted for the younger hotshot guy who was would have been plucked by another team.

2. Elway Didn't go after Romo / cutler etc. because he actually believes in his young QB's. Maybe his undoing but he said so from day one and hasn't done anything to change that perspective. Then Signed the guy he offered 16 mil to Be the starter last year to a bottom barrel contract - pay back and back up plan rolled into one.

3. Who knows if Ward would have been waived if the injury bug didn't hit him and other D members in other positions so fast and furious in camp. Me thinks elway was inclined to make this move only after he felt damn sure he had a quality starter that earned his spot was able to bolster other positions with that roster spot. All teams GM will trade the older more expensive player in their last year of contract for the younger player if they think they can get comparable play and see more upside. Not a popular move for sure but seems like a tough ballsy GM move. See BB cutting Lawyer Malloy right before the start of the season who got picked up by the team they played week 1 for a comparison. pats won the SB that year..

4. Beefin' up the line with the big nasties. Refurbishing both lines with bigger uglier and meaner players. Maybe they all will suck but the effort was there to go get these guys and get them at affordable prices. Nothing says trying to get back to the dance like fixing your weaknesses. Running and stopping the run was the major reason why this team didn't go the playoffs last year.

All in all - I'm maybe totally naive in my thinking but I think we are in much better shape this year for another playoff run. The press etc thinks we will be shitty and that will galvinize the team, lines look improved, injury bug hit in camp but aren't chatosphic in nature and Trev will be getting his best coaches yet to find his strengths and exploit their foes who they both coached for last year. I also think we are getting young in all the right places to keep this thing going for a while.

[Northman]

Major Mad respect for you and your opinions North but I actually look at this off-season as being pretty boringly transparent with the moves made and not at all an indication of tossing in the towel with the dreaded rebuild.
Here's why:

1. Elway Hires the coach he wanted who was dead set of keeping the defensive scheme intact. D coaches stayed in place save for Wade getting ousted for the younger hotshot guy who was would have been plucked by another team.

2. Elway Didn't go after Romo / cutler etc. because he actually believes in his young QB's. Maybe his undoing but he said so from day one and hasn't done anything to change that perspective. Then Signed the guy he offered 16 mil to Be the starter last year to a bottom barrel contract - pay back and back up plan rolled into one.

3. Who knows if Ward would have been waived if the injury bug didn't hit him and other D members in other positions so fast and furious in camp. Me thinks elway was inclined to make this move only after he felt damn sure he had a quality starter that earned his spot was able to bolster other positions with that roster spot. All teams GM will trade the older more expensive player in their last year of contract for the younger player if they think they can get comparable play and see more upside. Not a popular move for sure but seems like a tough ballsy GM move. See BB cutting Lawyer Malloy right before the start of the season who got picked up by the team they played week 1 for a comparison. pats won the SB that year..

4. Beefin' up the line with the big nasties. Refurbishing both lines with bigger uglier and meaner players. Maybe they all will suck but the effort was there to go get these guys and get them at affordable prices. Nothing says trying to get back to the dance like fixing your weaknesses. Running and stopping the run was the major reason why this team didn't go the playoffs last year.

All in all - I'm maybe totally naive in my thinking but I think we are in much better shape this year for another playoff run. The press etc thinks we will be shitty and that will galvinize the team, lines look improved, injury bug hit in camp but aren't chatosphic in nature and Trev will be getting his best coaches yet to find his strengths and exploit their foes who they both coached for last year. I also think we are getting young in all the right places to keep this thing going for a while.


Certainly optimistic but im not really feeling it. Let me also be clear that not every rebuild is throwing in the towel especially when it comes to the Denver Broncos. Denver doesnt have the crappy legacy of the Cleveland Browns when it comes to regaining success. A rebuild for Denver can easily turn around in a 2-3 year time period. Elway may think he has the answer at QB but i do think it will be his undoing in that regard, i dont think we have the QOTF on the team currently. Thats not to say that Sloter was the guy only that the guys we have arent much better. I dont think you are naive in your thinking but im not sure if you are seeing the reality either. I think Denver overachieved last year and i think with our schedule and the AFCW getting so much better around us that having a winning season and actually making the playoffs is wishful thinking as of right now. New HC, young QB's, young team in general; I think it will be another couple of years before we are back in the playoff/SB fray. IMO

[Tned]

Certainly optimistic but im not really feeling it. Let me also be clear that not every rebuild is throwing in the towel especially when it comes to the Denver Broncos. Denver doesnt have the crappy legacy of the Cleveland Browns when it comes to regaining success. A rebuild for Denver can easily turn around in a 2-3 year time period. Elway may think he has the answer at QB but i do think it will be his undoing in that regard, i dont think we have the QOTF on the team currently. Thats not to say that Sloter was the guy only that the guys we have arent much better. I dont think you are naive in your thinking but im not sure if you are seeing the reality either. I think Denver overachieved last year and i think with our schedule and the AFCW getting so much better around us that having a winning season and actually making the playoffs is wishful thinking as of right now. New HC, young QB's, young team in general; I think it will be another couple of years before we are back in the playoff/SB fray. IMO

SB, who knows, since what is the average time between trips, 10-12 years, maybe closer to 15. So, considering the Broncos have been their twice in the last four years, the odds are against another quick trip.

That said, I see the team a little different. I think they under achieved last year, due to injury and very poor play calling/scheme.

Even the poor line play could have been overcome with better play calling. Giving up on the dream of running from under center and play action passing. Transition to running shotgun, spread, quick release, etc.

We didn't have the coaching flexibility to adapt to the injuries and team weaknesses. I expect McCoy and company to be able to better adapt to the personnel.

I think for many of us, we don't see last year as an anomaly on the positive side, but instead an anomaly on the negative side and with improved talent on the O-line, improved running back and possibly talent, three healthy TEs and a QB in his second year of starting, that the offense should be significantly better. Time will tell.

[Ziggy]

This team isn't rebuilding. They are constantly reloading. Elway has missed on the QB position a bit, but Siemian has a chance to be a difference maker. He's going to surprise some people this season. This defense will be better against the run. The offense will be better with the run. It's a better scheme with better lineman on both sides of the ball. 11-5 at worst. This is a playoff team. Hide and watch.

[Northman]

This team isn't rebuilding. They are constantly reloading. Elway has missed on the QB position a bit, but Siemian has a chance to be a difference maker. He's going to surprise some people this season. This defense will be better against the run. The offense will be better with the run. It's a better scheme with better lineman on both sides of the ball. 11-5 at worst. This is a playoff team. Hide and watch.

Ill just bookmark this for later.... :)

[Nomad]

This team isn't rebuilding. They are constantly reloading. Elway has missed on the QB position a bit, but Siemian has a chance to be a difference maker. He's going to surprise some people this season. This defense will be better against the run. The offense will be better with the run. It's a better scheme with better lineman on both sides of the ball. 11-5 at worst. This is a playoff team. Hide and watch.

I'll be watching from the comfort of my recliner. I'm just hoping the BRONCOS are televised up here a lot this season. I lost the battle of getting Directv again, so no Sunday Ticket.

[Nomad]

Ill just bookmark this for later.... :)

Hey, North. Is the redzone channel worth it even if I don't do the fantasy football thing?

[Tned]

Ill just bookmark this for later.... :)

I'll bookmark this for later.

[Nomad]

I'll bookmark this for later.

You have the power to sticky. :D

[Tned]

Hey, North. Is the redzone channel worth it even if I don't do the fantasy football thing?

If nothing else, you would say every Broncos scoring drive (they go to every team that's in the redzone) and when teams aren't in the red zone, they will just switch to an interesting game. I know the non DirecTV redzone is a little different, but at least the DirecTV one is awesome.

[Northman]

Hey, North. Is the redzone channel worth it even if I don't do the fantasy football thing?

Absolutely.

[Northman]

I'll bookmark this for later.

Take a picture, it will last longer. :)

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I get what people are saying about the offense being better with McCoy, Siemian's second year starting and some new OL pieces, but I think the defense will probably take a step back this year. Most of our best defensive players are a year older, we don't know how the new additions will be and if they'll actually fix the run defense, and most of all we have a new DC and HC I know they are keeping the same scheme and worked for Wade, but they're not Wade. VJ could be McDaniels and Woods could be Slowik. We'll see.

[Tned]

You have the power to sticky. :D

Well, I demodded myself last year, but I do know a few people that do have that power. Good thinking...

[Tned]

I get what people are saying about the offense being better with McCoy, Siemian's second year starting and some new OL pieces, but I think the defense will probably take a step back this year. Most of our best defensive players are a year older, we don't know how the new additions will be and if they'll actually fix the run defense, and most of all we have a new DC and HC I know they are keeping the same scheme and worked for Wade, but they're not Wade. VJ could be McDaniels and Woods could be Slowik. We'll see.

I know that the older and one more year removed from the amazing '15 defense is a common line of thinking, and I sort of understand why, but I'm not sure I buy into it.

I think the defense will be at worst as good as last year, and there is signs to believe it will be better. I probably wouldn't even be hesitant if it wasn't for losing Ray to injury, that hurts.

Assuming Shaq's hip (I think it was hip) is ok, then he and Von will be minimal drop off from Von/Ware or Von/Ray, but a bit. The biggest hit is less rotational depth. Walker, who is Ware size, is now an OLB, but I will admit that I didn't pay enough attention to him this preseason to get a good feel for him, even though what I read was positive.

I think Simmons replacing Ward will show to be a net gain, and then they will bring in Parks or Carter (initially probably Parks) on dime packages when they bring in the third safety. Again, I think we will be even to net ahead of last year.

Unless you think Talib is losing a step, our top three corners should be as good or better (each year Roby gets better from experience).

Big upgrade with Demato Peko at NT. In preseason he was commanding double teams to move him or block him. If they single team, he could actually create pass rush pressure from the NT position.

At least on paper, we should be better at end, but certainly no worse. These guys will go a long way to determine if we are improved against the run.

MLBs are the same.

We've gotten younger and/or bigger in multiple areas, and except talib at 31, we don't have a bunch of old guys at the "lose a step" defensive spots, instead we have guys in their prime and we've gotten younger in several spots.

I think these defense has every chance to be closer to '15 than '16.

[Tned]

Take a picture, it will last longer. :)

I took your advice.... ;)

10991

[Nomad]

Your Hogs are looking good, Tned.

[Nomad]

Your Hogs are looking good, Tned.

Ooops....I think I just jinxed them. :lol:

[Ziggy]

I think Shelby Harris is the real deal as well. We'll find out Monday night. He should get some good playing time with Kerr and Crick out. Getting rid of TJ might hurt early on, but this defense will be better against the TE's and RB's by midseason.

The one area where we might be going backwards is special teams coverage. I have no confidence in those units right now.

[Jsteve01]

I think Shelby Harris is the real deal as well. We'll find out Monday night. He should get some good playing time with Kerr and Crick out. Getting rid of TJ might hurt early on, but this defense will be better against the TE's and RB's by midseason.

The one area where we might be going backwards is special teams coverage. I have no confidence in those units right now.

If Harris has his head on straight. Don't shoot me but he could have a Malik Jackson type presence. His uber-athletic has a great first step really like our defensive line depth if we can keep guys healthy. My only concern is that domata is old and we really don't have anyone behind him to play the nose consistently. That's what we really miss from having the Vance Walker injury last year. I guess Kerr provide some depth. But just because he's big doesn't mean he's a natural nose tackle. He's really and better at the five technique or under tackle in a 4-3.