Reports: Denver Broncos fielding trade requests for T.J. Ward

[tomjonesrocks]

T.J. Ward might be on the move.

The Denver Broncos have received calls from and engaged in trade conversations with other teams regarding the veteran Pro Bowl safety, NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport reported Tuesday.

Speaking with reporters, Broncos coach Vance Joseph said he hadn't heard anything about Ward being on the trade block, per NFL Network's James Palmer.

"He's one of our better players," Joseph said. "I'd be surprised."

Ward, who is entering the final year of his four-year pact with the organization, is owed $4.5 million in base salary. A pioneering member of the "No Fly Zone" Broncos secondary, he is slated to start this season with free safety Darian Stewart.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000836576/article/denver-broncos-fielding-trade-requests-for-tj-ward

Wow --

[DenBronx]

Unless it's for a franchise QB then we shouldn't even entertain this idea.

[BroncoWave]

Last year of his contract, a couple of good young safeties behind him, I could see the logic. Every player has a price. We shouldn't give him away obviously, but I don't think it hurts to listen to offers.

[dogfish]

dumb risk if they do it. . . i like simmons as much as the next guy, but you don't just replace the chemistry and communication we have in the back end right now. . . they better really think they can get something for him if they're going to mess with the heart of the defense. . . if you can get a good TE or OL, maybe it makes some sense, but don't break up the foundational unit of the team to save a couple million bucks in cap space that you aren't going to use anyway. . . that's not kicking and screaming. . .

[DenBronx]

Fake News

[BeefStew25]

Last year of his contract, a couple of good young safeties behind him, I could see the logic. Every player has a price. We shouldn't give him away obviously, but I don't think it hurts to listen to offers.

Parks. Or Simmons. Which one Wave. Which one.

[Buff]

The problem is that if we think we're good enough to win a Super Bowl this year - then TJ Ward absolutely needs to be a part of this team. He is tough as nails, plays injured, plays with toughness, sets the tone, leads the team, etc. It's hard to say enough about a true difference maker like Ward.

Obviously there is logic in getting some compensation for him with depth at the position - but IMO that only makes sense if you've resigned yourself to rebuilding. We won't be able to redeploy that $4.5 million more effectively this season.

[GEM]

dumb risk if they do it. . . i like simmons as much as the next guy, but you don't just replace the chemistry and communication we have in the back end right now. . . they better really think they can get something for him if they're going to mess with the heart of the defense. . . if you can get a good TE or OL, maybe it makes some sense, but don't break up the foundational unit of the team to save a couple million bucks in cap space that you aren't going to use anyway. . . that's not kicking and screaming. . .

As much as the Broncos hype the #NoFlyZone to be considering trading a key part of it....

RijB8wnJCN0

[BroncoWave]

Parks. Or Simmons. Which one Wave. Which one.

I don't know, they all look the same to me!

[slim]

The problem is that if we think we're good enough to win a Super Bowl this year - then TJ Ward absolutely needs to be a part of this team. He is tough as nails, plays injured, plays with toughness, sets the tone, leads the team, etc. It's hard to say enough about a true difference maker like Ward.

Obviously there is logic in getting some compensation for him with depth at the position - but IMO that only makes sense if you've resigned yourself to rebuilding. We won't be able to redeploy that $4.5 million more effectively this season.

Super Bowl?!

[Freyaka]

I don't know, they all look the same to me!

That's racist...

[underrated29]

When the pats do this they get lauded as Geniuses. When we take a phone call about it we are making the wrong move. Didnt the pats do something like this last year with Nikovich and Jamie Collins?


We cant throw him away but if we can get something really good for him, well, it is probably the smart move. A 2nd rd pick or a starting player. Less than that and I'd say (mo) neigh!

[Buff]

When the pats do this they get lauded as Geniuses. When we take a phone call about it we are making the wrong move. Didnt the pats do something like this last year with Nikovich and Jamie Collins?


We cant throw him away but if we can get something really good for him, well, it is probably the smart move. A 2nd rd pick or a starting player. Less than that and I'd say (mo) neigh!

In fairness - the Pats trade talks never leak. The deal gets done and everyone is blindsided by it... But there is no speculation leading up to it. I am with you that nobody is untouchable and it's smart to explore all options - but it's not ideal to have speculation about trying to move the leader of your defense. Not a huge deal either - but not ideal.

[BroncoWave]

That's racist...

Yes, that was the joke. Thank you for pointing it out.

[Tned]

That's racist...

His kind can say those things...

[Tned]

Here's an article from Klis on the possible trade of Ward.

http://www.9news.com/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/heres-why-the-broncos-appear-ready-to-move-on-from-tj-ward/469024062

[chazoe60]

This seems like a really stupid idea. I don't get it.

[dogfish]

We won't be able to redeploy that $4.5 million more effectively this season.

not until we trade for sheldon richardson and joe thomas, anyway. . .

[Poet]

not until we trade for sheldon richardson and joe thomas, anyway. . .

I know this isn't possible...but when I read it...I saw glory!

[LawDog]

So, if there are no serviceable trade offers does JFE just cut him and eat the $1.25m cap hit to free up the roster spot for another DL or a QB or whatever? What's that do to the locker room? Plus, has TJ fully come back from his hammy yet?

[DenBronx]

We won't be able to redeploy that $4.5 million more effectively this season.

not until we trade for sheldon richardson and joe thomas, anyway. . .

100% off the JT trade scenario since we drafted a stud LT. No need for him. Out OL should be alot better now. He made a couple mistakes in preseason but I am impressed with what I've seen so far.

[Poet]

So, if there are no serviceable trade offers does JFE just cut him and eat the $1.25m cap hit to free up the roster spot for another DL or a QB or whatever? What's that do to the locker room? Plus, has TJ fully come back from his hammy yet?

I can't imagine cutting one of the better players on our team so long as he is at least moderately healthy. I would imagine that the locker room would be incensed.

[tomjonesrocks]

Fake News

Idiotic posts.

[LTC Pain]

Can Sloter play Safety???

[Simple Jaded]

dumb risk if they do it. . . i like simmons as much as the next guy, but you don't just replace the chemistry and communication we have in the back end right now. . . they better really think they can get something for him if they're going to mess with the heart of the defense. . . if you can get a good TE or OL, maybe it makes some sense, but don't break up the foundational unit of the team to save a couple million bucks in cap space that you aren't going to use anyway. . . that's not kicking and screaming. . .
Kicking and screaming was so 2015.

[Simple Jaded]

That's racist...

https://media.giphy.com/media/4WHkXdDx8wjS0/giphy.gif

[dogfish]

Kicking and screaming was so 2015.

:first:

[tomjonesrocks]

Here's an article from Klis on the possible trade of Ward.

http://www.9news.com/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/heres-why-the-broncos-appear-ready-to-move-on-from-tj-ward/469024062

Brutal...

[Freyaka]

https://media.giphy.com/media/4WHkXdDx8wjS0/giphy.gif

I wanted to use the gif, I was at work and I was ready to go home, I was lazy and I apologize to you Jaded, you deserve better from me.

[Simple Jaded]

I wanted to use the gif, I was at work and I was ready to go home, I was lazy and I apologize to you Jaded, you deserve better from me.

Step ya game up! Season starts in 2 weeks.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Brandon Marshall
✔
@BMarshh54

We better not trade the homie
7:37 PM - Aug 29, 2017

Ed McCaffrey‏Verified account @87ed 5h

Hoping the trade rumors surrounding TJ Ward are "Fake News". But if not...Don't do it!!!!!

[Bronco4ever]

I think we'd be ok with our safety production if Ward was traded, but I'd much rather he plays out his contract and get a compensation pick later. It's not a good look for the team to trade one of its true leaders less than 2 weeks before our first game.

[Hawgdriver]

Sometimes you take away one piece and the tower collapses.

[Northman]

Would hate to see Ward traded.

[GEM]

If I were Joseph, I would tell the powers that be, "I have a shit show on offense, don't you dare touch anything about the No Fly Zone."

[BroncoWave]

If I were Joseph, I would tell the powers that be, "I have a shit show on offense, don't you dare touch anything about the No Fly Zone."

Unless they could trade Ward for some major help on offense. At that point, you'd have to consider it, especially given our depth at safety.

[GEM]

Unless they could trade Ward for some major help on offense. At that point, you'd have to consider it, especially given our depth at safety.

I don't have a lot of confidence that 2 weeks before opening game, they could do that.

[Cugel]

Last year of his contract, a couple of good young safeties behind him, I could see the logic. Every player has a price. We shouldn't give him away obviously, but I don't think it hurts to listen to offers.

Wrong! Don't **** with the No Fly Zone! And especially, don't **** with it NOW.

There is an illusion that sustains championship teams: that this really is a band of brothers, not just a business.

Because NFL football players are mercenaries. They get moved around. That's normal. But, most of this movement is in March & April around FA and the draft. Then in June and July you get 90 guys together and start forging a collective identity: we're a TEAM! Not a collection of individuals.

During the pre-season, some guys get cut and they whittle the team down to 53 warriors. And these are the guys you roll with. Period.

And then after the season is over you evaluate and start over. But, one thing you do NOT do is fuk with things 2 weeks before the start of the season! The No Fly Zone is the heart of this team. It's special. Don't change it before the end of the season.

Reality: Losing T.J. to FA in 2018 = so what? If he leaves via FA you get a 3rd round compensatory pick due to how much money he'll make. So, they will get compensation for him.

This is just stupid on so many levels the mind woggles.

[BroncoWave]

I don't have a lot of confidence that 2 weeks before opening game, they could do that.

I agree, which is why he probably won't be traded. But like I said earlier, every player does have a price. If GB wanted to trade us Rodgers and Nelson for Ward, I'm sure we could all find that agreeable. :D

[Cugel]

I don't have a lot of confidence that 2 weeks before opening game, they could do that.

Supposedly they need an extra roster spot because of the injury to Paxton and the sudden need to start the season with Kyle Sloter on the 53. They weren't planning on that. And safety really is the deepest position on the team. Will Parks is ready to step in and start.

Fine. I've got no problem with that. But, don't lose key warriors who won the SB with you just before the start of the season. True T.J. has struggled with a hamstring this offseason, but he could play and will play at a high level this year. There is absolutely no reason to make such a radical change so late in the pre-season.

After all they are probably NOT going to get a veteran player who can step in and start. Rather they are getting a late round draft pick or other similar compensation.

[Freyaka]

If I were Joseph, I would tell the powers that be, "I have a shit show on offense, don't you dare touch anything about the No Fly Zone."

I'm really not convinced that Simmons wouldn't improve the No Fly Zone. I love ward, but dude misses a lot of tackles. He's always going for a big hit so he either hits big or whiffs and he whiffs a lot. I like what he brings to the table leadership wise, but I don't think he's a better player than Simmons is developing into.

[Cugel]

Sometimes you take away one piece and the tower collapses.

Yes. It's Jenga!

10905

[GEM]

I'm really not convinced that Simmons wouldn't improve the No Fly Zone. I love ward, but dude misses a lot of tackles. He's always going for a big hit so he either hits big or whiffs and he whiffs a lot. I like what he brings to the table leadership wise, but I don't think he's a better player than Simmons is developing into.

He's not a great coverage guy, but I'll take his teammates word for it that he is instrumental to their game. It's just the start to chipping away at what has made this team special the last 3 years. Once you chip away at that, you're left with a shit show on offense and some rookies who may turn out great or may turn out just ok. Just ok defense with shit show offense means some suck years.

[Freyaka]

I hear people talking about how if we're going to make the playoffs, or if we make the superbowl, his experience is important.

Did he have much playoff experience going into SB 50? Why would it be any different for someone like Parks or Simmons if they play at a higher caliber than Ward to not have that experience. That lack of playoff experience didn't hinder Ward come superbowl time.

We still have Talib, Wolfe and Miller who are all vocal and fiery leaders on that side of the ball. We're losing Ward next season anyway and for all we know, being in a position of leadership could cause that fire to be displayed by guys like Parks and Simmons.

We're making way too much importance out of the "rah rah" portion of wards play and not taking into account the fact that he's been kinda hit or miss and last season, there was a lot of missing. He's not getting any younger.

[Freyaka]

He's not a great coverage guy, but I'll take his teammates word for it that he is instrumental to their game. It's just the start to chipping away at what has made this team special the last 3 years. Once you chip away at that, you're left with a shit show on offense and some rookies who may turn out great or may turn out just ok. Just ok defense with shit show offense means some suck years.

Well, he's going to be gone after this season anyway, I guess it comes down to do you think we can make a superbowl run now? If not, why not give one of the young kids the reigns and start building towards next season.

I think we can make the playoffs this year possibly, but superbowl is a pipe dream, with or without ward.

I get the sentimental feelings people have towards ward, as much as I hate the patriots, they know when to cut bait on a player. The pats would cut bait in this situation.

I don't by any means hate ward, he's a very likable player. But from a business standpoint IMO it makes sense and it's how the patriots stay competitive year after year (that and BB's deal with the devil)

[Cugel]

When the pats do this they get lauded as Geniuses. When we take a phone call about it we are making the wrong move. Didnt the pats do something like this last year with Nikovich and Jamie Collins?

We cant throw him away but if we can get something really good for him, well, it is probably the smart move. A 2nd rd pick or a starting player. Less than that and I'd say (mo) neigh!

There's a lot of total Bull Crap that gets talked about the Patriots. 90% of how brilliant they are is because they have Tom Brady, perhaps the best QB in NFL history. (I hate him, but let's get real.)

Wait till he retires and suddenly they don't look so smart. Then all that "players are interchangeable parts" stuff won't fly so well. Right now players are willing to take less to play with Tom Brady and win a championship, because if they do, their asking price is likely to go up. "I was an integral part of us winning a championship last year."

Notice that the "Patriot Way" doesn't work so good when all these assistant coaches leave town and try and repeat that success elsewhere. We know the legacy of all those failures first hand from experiencing Hurricane McDaniels.

[Freyaka]

There's a lot of total Bull Crap that gets talked about the Patriots. 90% of how brilliant they are is because they have Tom Brady, perhaps the best QB in NFL history. (I hate him, but let's get real.)

Wait till he retires and suddenly they don't look so smart. Then all that "players are interchangeable parts" stuff won't fly so well. Right now players are willing to take less to play with Tom Brady and win a championship, because if they do, their asking price is likely to go up. "I was an integral part of us winning a championship last year."

Notice that the "Patriot Way" doesn't work so good when all these assistant coaches leave town and try and repeat that success elsewhere. We know the legacy of all those failures first hand from experiencing Hurricane McDaniels.

It does work because they are very, very good at drafting. It's not just Brady, if it was Matt Cassell would have won 2 games. They believe (and I agree with them) that building through the draft is the way to go. Resign a player if it's affordable, if it isn't or if the player isn't going to be resigned, trade them in their last year.

The pats know how to sustain success and it's not all Tom Brady (in fact, I feel like Tom Brady is kinda overrated, take him out of that QB friendly system, I'm not sure he is nearly as good)

[Cugel]

It does work because they are very, very good at drafting. It's not just Brady, if it was Matt Cassell would have won 2 games. They believe (and I agree with them) that building through the draft is the way to go. Resign a player if it's affordable, if it isn't or if the player isn't going to be resigned, trade them in their last year.

The pats know how to sustain success and it's not all Tom Brady (in fact, I feel like Tom Brady is kinda overrated, take him out of that QB friendly system, I'm not sure he is nearly as good)

I'll let Brandon Marshall have the last word here:


Brandon Marshall‏Verified account @BMarshh54

We better not trade the homie
7:37 PM - 29 Aug 2017

[Joel]

Sometimes you take away one piece and the tower collapses.
We're way past just ONE piece: Our biggest defensive leader retired, and if I've never been as impressed with Malik the Freak as most fans and his agent are, he DID do a lot to compensate for the reality that Sly was never a true 3-4 NT—but I guess that's not an issue anymore since HE'S GONE TOO! Even back in 2013 I used to LiteraLOL every time someone tried to run on us, because our front seven just smashed that crap into the turf inside 3 yds nearly every time. But we don't have Woodyard anymore, nor his worthy successor Trevathan, and we certainly don't have Big Vick, his successor Potroast nor even HIS successor Sly. We have an aging Domato Peko and his green cousin, but little more except a loooot of questions and holes beside Brandon Marshall and opposite Derek Wolfe.

Until/unless Ray and Barrett show they can fill the gap left by Wares retirement, the secondary's our ONE undisputed undeniable strength, so I'd rather not screw with it (more than we already did letting Webster walk when we couldn't justify paying even a very good #4 CB starter money.) I realize you're not disputing that view, I just wanted to underscore it a bit. It's like the FO is looking at a recent World Champion roster and asking themselves, "lessee, what HAVEN'T we screwed up yet?"

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

If I were Joseph, I would tell the powers that be, "I have a shit show on offense, don't you dare touch anything about the No Fly Zone."

Let's screw with the best unit on the team right before the season opener!

[Freyaka]

I'll let Brandon Marshall have the last word here:

He'll get over it, just like you will as well. It's a business, sometimes you make tough choices. And that really doesn't serve as a rebuttal to my response. That doesn't prove that it doesn't work, that just shows that Ward has some loyalty from his teammates.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

He'll get over it, just like you will as well. It's a business, sometimes you make tough choices.

The timing of those choices are important. This is just like Seattle cutting Cam Chancellor one week before the start of the season. You don't don't a key component one week before the season. They should have done this in the offseason if it's what they wanted.

[Cugel]

The timing of those choices are important. This is just like Seattle cutting Cam Chancellor one week before the start of the season. You don't don't a key component one week before the season. They should have done this in the offseason if it's what they wanted.

Exactly right! Look, they lost DeMarcus Ware last year. That was 10x bigger loss than TJ. But, he retired in February and this gave the team time to heal and adjust - as well as they could.

If they want to cut TJ or trade him, fine. But, do it in March. Then you know who's the starter, everybody is adjusted to the new team. Now they are trying to get ready to play football. Now is NOT the time to make major changes to the roster.

It's too late for that crap two weeks before the regular season.

[Freyaka]

Exactly right! Look, they lost DeMarcus Ware last year. That was 10x bigger loss than TJ. But, he retired in February and this gave the team time to heal and adjust - as well as they could.

If they want to cut TJ or trade him, fine. But, do it in March. Then you know who's the starter, everybody is adjusted to the new team. Now they are trying to get ready to play football. Now is NOT the time to make major changes to the roster.

It's too late for that crap two weeks before the regular season.

So say you go into March assuming that Ward is the best player on your roster, but through camp and preseason you realize he's been surpassed. Do you just keep him and make him the backup just to avoid turmoil? Won't making him the backup cause turmoil as well if he's such a key piece? Do you keep a guy the starter even though he isn't the best player on the field? (not saying that's for sure the situation, just playing devils advocate) It's not always as cut and dry as you are presenting it.

[Joel]

So say you go into March assuming that Ward is the best player on your roster, but through camp and preseason you realize he's been surpassed. Do you just keep him and make him the backup just to avoid turmoil? Won't making him the backup cause turmoil as well if he's such a key piece? Do you keep a guy the starter even though he isn't the best player on the field? (not say that's for sure the situation, just playing devils advocate) It's not always as cut and dry as you are presenting it.
I'm pretty sure if some one of the youngsters had SURPASSED the three-time Pro Bowler in camp, our first notice wouldn't have been trade rumors about the proven vet. This isn't about having lots of younger cheaper guys just as good or better, it's about selling high before his relatively large contract expires. That's fine, but the point others made about doing that in early spring rather than late summer stands: They had plenty of time (and almost certainly more bidders in need of a stud SS.)

Replacing a key piece of the strongest unit in the D singlehandedly keeping us in games AND WAITING TIL A LONE FORTNIGHT BEFORE OPENING DAY TO DO IT is just jumping out of a plane and trying to knit a parachute before an imminent meeting with terra ultra firma.

[Hawgdriver]

If I were Joseph, I would tell the powers that be, "I have a shit show on offense, don't you dare touch anything about the No Fly Zone."

I was going to 'yeah but' you, then I got to thinking about it, and I decided I agree with you. Until they prove it, this offense is a shit-show. Too strong? ******* prove otherwise then.

Simmons might match Ward's play, doubtful, but even if he did, he won't match his presence. If we learned anything from adding Ware, Ward, Talib, and Phillips, it's that presence and who a person is each day makes all the difference in the ultimate results.

I'd have to at least look at the options out there--if you could get a mauler LG, then suddenly you have an OL you'd get in bed with. At least beef would.

Or a stud TE.

Whoever it is would have to add the swagboss factor on O that is subtracted from the D.

It would suck, but I could get behind it.

[NightTerror218]

I'm really not convinced that Simmons wouldn't improve the No Fly Zone. I love ward, but dude misses a lot of tackles. He's always going for a big hit so he either hits big or whiffs and he whiffs a lot. I like what he brings to the table leadership wise, but I don't think he's a better player than Simmons is developing into.

Different positions. Come on, how many times I hear this. Ward is box safety his replacement is parks. Ward out parks starts not simmons.

As for leadership ward does more then just that he sets the tempo of defense. He may not be the best but he is the heart of it.

He was also leading tackler last season so to say he whiffed on tackles a lot is a reach.

[NightTerror218]

It does work because they are very, very good at drafting. It's not just Brady, if it was Matt Cassell would have won 2 games. They believe (and I agree with them) that building through the draft is the way to go. Resign a player if it's affordable, if it isn't or if the player isn't going to be resigned, trade them in their last year.

The pats know how to sustain success and it's not all Tom Brady (in fact, I feel like Tom Brady is kinda overrated, take him out of that QB friendly system, I'm not sure he is nearly as good)

They have whiffed on draft picks the last few years and have depended one robbing teams with trades.

[Hawgdriver]

Different positions. Come on, how many times I hear this. Ward is box safety his replacement is parks. Ward out parks starts not simmons.

As for leadership ward does more then just that he sets the tempo of defense. He may not be the best but he is the heart of it.

Right, Parks or Carter, not Simmons. mb.

[NightTrainLayne]

As with most trades, the reasons we want to get rid of him are reasons nobody else wants him: In this case, his expiring contract for a 30-year old safety.

The only teams willing to do this would be teams who are desperate for a safety, but otherwise a strong playoff team. I.E., the elusive "one guy away from the SB" teams.

Teams in a full-on rebuild aren't going to rebuild around Ward's 1-year contract.

Teams who are already set at safety obviously don't need him.

We might be putting him on the market, but I doubt we get much of an offer. That being said, something is better than nothing if we're just going to cut him. I can't figure out if its trade vs. cut, or just a "we'll let him go for the right price", but otherwise keep him scenario.

[BroncoWave]

As with most trades, the reasons we want to get rid of him are reasons nobody else wants him: In this case, his expiring contract for a 30-year old safety.

The only teams willing to do this would be teams who are desperate for a safety, but otherwise a strong playoff team. I.E., the elusive "one guy away from the SB" teams.

Teams in a full-on rebuild aren't going to rebuild around Ward's 1-year contract.

Teams who are already set at safety obviously don't need him.

We might be putting him on the market, but I doubt we get much of an offer. That being said, something is better than nothing if we're just going to cut him. I can't figure out if its trade vs. cut, or just a "we'll let him go for the right price", but otherwise keep him scenario.

I doubt the plan is to flat out cut him. Then you lose out on the comp pick for him

[Freyaka]

I doubt the plan is to flat out cut him. Then you lose out on the comp pick for him

I don't think there is a logical reason to cut him personally, but with us needing every roster spot it's not out of the question. If we could get something decent out of him, I'm obviously ok with it. I don't think it would be as detrimental to us as some around here fear.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Kizla suggested Simmons would start if Ward was shipped out. It doesn't mean he's right, but...

[dogfish]

so, the browns just released stud corner joe haden to save some cap space. . .

do we want to be like the browns? don't be like the browns, john. . .

#ClevelandThings

[GEM]

They have whiffed on draft picks the last few years and have depended one robbing teams with trades.

Right, I was going to say using drafting as anything good with the Broncos, because it hasn't been good.

[Joel]

I don't think there is a logical reason to cut him personally, but with us needing every roster spot it's not out of the question. If we could get something decent out of him, I'm obviously ok with it. I don't think o t would be as detrimental to us as some around here fear.
That argument just makes a weird idea downright absurd: Elway and Joseph were so tepid on Sloter that they were willing to cut him and risk someone else signing him to their 53 before we could get him on our PS—but now that the BACKUP QB is out for JUST TWO WEEKS they're MAKING offers to trade a three-time Pro Bowler just to make room for rookie UDFA QB for two lousy weeks?

That's like mortgaging your house to buy a pack of gum: "Well, the flavor's gone, so I might as well just go to bed... if only I had somewhere to sleep...."

How'm I doin' on awful analogies here, Tned; this one in the running for Worst of the Decade? :tongue:

[Hawgdriver]

Right, I was going to say using drafting as anything good with the Broncos, because it hasn't been good.

I disagree. Broncos are actually decent at the draft game if you look at the whole body of work with what Elway and Russell have done. They have quiety hit on a lot of players, more so than the average team.

[Freyaka]

That argument just makes a weird idea downright absurd: Elway and Joseph were so tepid on Sloter that they were willing to cut him and risk someone else signing him to their 53 before we could get him on our PS—but now that the BACKUP QB is out for JUST TWO WEEKS they're MAKING offers to trade a three-time Pro Bowler just to make room for rookie UDFA QB for two lousy weeks?

That's like mortgaging your house to buy a pack of gum: "Well, the flavor's gone, so I might as well just go to bed... if only I had somewhere to sleep...."

How'm I doin' on awful analogies here, Tned; this one in the running for Worst of the Decade? :tongue:

Who the hell mentioned Sloter, I sure didn't. There are a lot of really talented players not named Sloter that we're going to have to decide to cut or keep.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I sure do not want the Broncos to trade TJ. But if they do, I can imagine Wade would be all in for the Rams to trade for him.

[Joel]

Who the hell mentioned Sloter, I sure didn't. There are a lot of really talented players not named Sloter that we're going to have to decide to cut or keep.
Yeah, but you and I aren't the only people talking here. ;)


Supposedly they need an extra roster spot because of the injury to Paxton and the sudden need to start the season with Kyle Sloter on the 53. They weren't planning on that. And safety really is the deepest position on the team. Will Parks is ready to step in and start.

That also fits the timing: Why we're not only fielding but MAKING trade offers even though the market was far better before the draft. Back then we probably could've traded Ward and our natural 1st to move into the top ten or even top five, and there were far more places we could use a quality starter—just like everyone else.

Instead, we waited until just a WEEK before Opening Day (remember: First game's a week from tomorrow,) so what happened in the last week to so radically change our designated starting SS and team captain into a trading commodity? Answer: Lynch screwed up his shoulder in the otherwise meaningless penultimate preseason game.

[NightTrainLayne]

so, the browns just released stud corner joe haden to save some cap space. . .

do we want to be like the browns? don't be like the browns, john. . .

#ClevelandThings

To save cap space? That can't be the reason. The Browns were barely at the salary floor.

[dogfish]

To save cap space? That can't be the reason. The Browns were barely at the salary floor.

maybe it was about saving cash rather than cap? they asked him to take a pay cut before they released him, so it was a money move of some kind. . .

[BroncoWave]

Yeah, that's weird. The main reason they absorbed Oz's salary was so they could hit the salary floor. There must be more to the release of Haden than just the money.

[Freyaka]

Yeah, that's weird. The main reason they absorbed Oz's salary was so they could hit the salary floor. There must be more to the release of Haden than just the money.

There has to be because frankly he had a bounce back year last year. Something else is going on and it isn't money related.

[GEM]

I disagree. Broncos are actually decent at the draft game if you look at the whole body of work with what Elway and Russell have done. They have quiety hit on a lot of players, more so than the average team.
10907

I mean they've hit on a few pretty well, but a lot of the names that are even still around are backups at best. To give credit where it's due, a lot of that could be because they do so damn well at using FA. These are the draft picks since Elway took over.

[Freyaka]

10907

I mean they've hit on a few pretty well, but a lot of the names that are even still around are backups at best. To give credit where it's due, a lot of that could be because they do so damn well at using FA. These are the draft picks since Elway took over.

I would argue that if you look at success rates around the league, we're on par or better.

[Hawgdriver]

10907

I mean they've hit on a few pretty well, but a lot of the names that are even still around are backups at best. To give credit where it's due, a lot of that could be because they do so damn well at using FA. These are the draft picks since Elway took over.

A while back I looked at it real scientific and such, and to me the Broncos had done a good job since 2008. I weighed them by how much value that pick is supposed to add vs what they actually added using the AV measure on pro football reference as a measure of player value. I should go back and eliminate the pre-Elway years, but there weren't that many. That span, since 2008, included Marshall, Decker, and Doom, which made it higher.

I guess my point is that we suck, but maybe less than everyone else sucks.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Troy Renck‏Verified account @TroyRenck 55m

#Broncos @VonMiller said he can't believe team would move @BossWard43. Wants to believe it's not true @DenverChannel

[Northman]

I hear people talking about how if we're going to make the playoffs, or if we make the superbowl, his experience is important.

Did he have much playoff experience going into SB 50? Why would it be any different for someone like Parks or Simmons if they play at a higher caliber than Ward to not have that experience. That lack of playoff experience didn't hinder Ward come superbowl time.

We still have Talib, Wolfe and Miller who are all vocal and fiery leaders on that side of the ball. We're losing Ward next season anyway and for all we know, being in a position of leadership could cause that fire to be displayed by guys like Parks and Simmons.

We're making way too much importance out of the "rah rah" portion of wards play and not taking into account the fact that he's been kinda hit or miss and last season, there was a lot of missing. He's not getting any younger.


Experience means everything.

Signed,
Peyton Manning

[Joel]

I would argue that if you look at success rates around the league, we're on par or better.
You're welcome and encouraged to demonstrate that; I'm sure we all HOPE it's true. Here's Pro Football References clickable version of our last 6 drafts, with career stats (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/draft.htm).

All Pros: Von Miller (3X; also DRoY and SB 50 MVP)
Pro Bowls: Von Miller (5X) Julius Thomas (2X)
Starters: Von Miller (6+) Orlando Franklin (6) Derek Wolfe (5+) Julius Thomas (3) Rahim Moore (3) Danny Trevathan (3+) Sylvester Williams (3+) Virgil Green (2+) Malik Jackson (2+) Matt Paradis (2+) Michael Schofield (2) Trevor Siemian (1+) Max Garcia (1)

If I counted right, 46 draft picks 2011-2016. Ten are already out of the league; that's nearly as many as EVER started, even briefly (and includes one of them: Rahim the Recurring Nightmare Moore.) 25% starters, 50% backups and 25% scrubs. That probably is pretty average, because Elways drafts are somewhat salvaged by finding quality players in later rounds (i.e. Green 7th, Trevathan 6th, Jackson 5th, Paradis 6th, Siemian 7th and possibly Doss 5th.) But his early picks... it's easier to list those he DIDN'T whiff—and don't say, "Von Miller," because anyone who can't find a perennial All Pro with their choice of "anyone but Cam Newton" should just give up.

In the early rounds it's Wolfe (2nd) Webster (3rd, low for a CB) Roby (1st) possibly Ray (1st) and hopefully Gotsis (2nd) Lynch (1st) or Bolles (1st.)

One caveat: It's too soon to be sure of this or last years draft, but there's some preliminary signs last years may have been good:


Rnd
Player
Pick
Pos
To
AP1
PB
St
CarAV
G
Cmp
Att
Yds
TD
Int
Att
Yds
TD
Rec
Yds
TD
Int
Sk


1
Paxton Lynch (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LyncPa00.htm)
26
QB
2016
0
0
0
1
3
49
83
497
2
1
11
25
0







2
Adam Gotsis (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GotsAd00.htm)
63
DT
2016
0
0
0
2
16















3
Justin Simmons (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SimmJu00.htm)
98
FS
2016
0
0
0
2
13











2
1.0


4
Devontae Booker (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BookDe00.htm)
136
RB
2016
0
0
0
5
16





174
612
4
31
265
1




5
Connor McGovern (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McGoCo00.htm)
144
G

0
0
0

















6
Andy Janovich (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JanoAn00.htm)
176
FB
2016
0
0
0
1
11





4
33
1
5
44
0




6
Will Parks (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/ParkWi01.htm)
219
S
2016
0
0
0
1
16











1



7
Riley Dixon (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DixoRi00.htm)
228
P
2016
0
0
1
2
16
1
1
16
0
0











Yet, once again, 1st and 2nd rounders Lynch and Gotsis look more like busts than studs so far; the saving grace is, as usual, promising signs from Simmons, McGovern, Janovich, Parks and Dixon. If a pair of second year 3rd and 6th round players are good enough we're considering trading a three-time Pro Bowler to create cap space, I guess they're doing OK so far; McGovern may end up starting by his second year, and Janovich remains our designated FB.

[Buff]

I hear people talking about how if we're going to make the playoffs, or if we make the superbowl, his experience is important.

Did he have much playoff experience going into SB 50? Why would it be any different for someone like Parks or Simmons if they play at a higher caliber than Ward to not have that experience. That lack of playoff experience didn't hinder Ward come superbowl time.

We still have Talib, Wolfe and Miller who are all vocal and fiery leaders on that side of the ball. We're losing Ward next season anyway and for all we know, being in a position of leadership could cause that fire to be displayed by guys like Parks and Simmons.

We're making way too much importance out of the "rah rah" portion of wards play and not taking into account the fact that he's been kinda hit or miss and last season, there was a lot of missing. He's not getting any younger.

Hit or miss? I don't know what the hell you're talking about. He was our leading tackler, led the team in fumble recoveries (nose for the ball) and he missed two games.

For me, it's his combination of toughness, awareness, leadership, tackling and energy. I never said "we need his experience." We need everything that he brings to the table, which is a lot more than rah rah.

I'm not playing your revisionist history game where now that he might be on his way out we nitpick his game. Dude is nails and has been as important as any member of that defense IMO.

[GEM]

Hit or miss? I don't know what the hell you're talking about. He was our leading tackler, led the team in fumble recoveries (nose for the ball) and he missed two games.

For me, it's his combination of toughness, awareness, leadership, tackling and energy. I never said "we need his experience." We need everything that he brings to the table, which is a lot more than rah rah.

I'm not playing your revisionist history game where now that he might be on his way out we nitpick his game. Dude is nails and has been as important as any member of that defense IMO.

If I could high 5 this a million times, I would.

[NightTrainLayne]

maybe it was about saving cash rather than cap? they asked him to take a pay cut before they released him, so it was a money move of some kind. . .

Yes, I'm sure this is it. The Browns are just an embarrassment. You just can't run an NFL franchise on a shoe-string.

I suspect that TJ's issue is related to cash flow for the Broncos as well. But we're closer to the top of league in spending. The team does it's part, but I do understand that there is often a stressful cash crunch in cash on hand to actually pay these salaries.

[GEM]

I would argue that if you look at success rates around the league, we're on par or better.

I don't care about the success rates of other teams. I care about my team. I don't call that list since 2011 par or better.

Out of 54 players drafted:

10 are viable to the Broncos: Janovich, Dixon, Ray, Garcia (puke), Siemian, Roby, Latimer (oh yay), Paradis, Wolfe, Miller, Green
10 are on the team, but either in there but not sure how good, backups or just haven't been cut yet: Lynch (lol), Gotsis, Booker (questionable if he's the real deal), McGovern (who knows), Parks (Possible, don't know) Sambrailo (Trex arms) Heuerman (Butts was drafter to replace), Doss, Kilgo and Schofield
5 are viable to other teams: J. Thomas, O. Franklin, R. Hillman, M. Jackson, K. Webster


The rest are just wasted picks. 20 out of 54 isn't even 50%.

[dogfish]

Yes, I'm sure this is it. The Browns are just an embarrassment. You just can't run an NFL franchise on a shoe-string.



jimmy haslam is basically a horse thief. . . alex mack and taylor gabriel looked great down in hotlanta last year while they were going to the super bowl. . .

[BroncoWave]

I don't care about the success rates of other teams. I care about my team.

I mean, you should if you're analyzing how good our drafts have been. 20 out of 54 means nothing without a basis of comparison. Maybe that's top 10% among other teams? Maybe bottom 10%?

If you're 20 out of 54 as a baseball hitter, you're on track for the hall of fame. If you're 20 out of 54 as a free throw shooter, you're on the bench. So the basis of comparison to other teams does matter.

[NightTrainLayne]

You're welcome and encouraged to demonstrate that; I'm sure we all HOPE it's true. Here's Pro Football References clickable version of our last 6 drafts, with career stats (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/draft.htm).

All Pros: Von Miller (3X; also DRoY and SB 50 MVP)
Pro Bowls: Von Miller (5X) Julius Thomas (2X)
Starters: Von Miller (6+) Orlando Franklin (6) Derek Wolfe (5+) Julius Thomas (3) Rahim Moore (3) Danny Trevathan (3+) Sylvester Williams (3+) Virgil Green (2+) Malik Jackson (2+) Matt Paradis (2+) Michael Schofield (2) Trevor Siemian (1+) Max Garcia (1)

If I counted right, 46 draft picks 2011-2016. Ten are already out of the league; that's nearly as many as EVER started, even briefly (and includes one of them: Rahim the Recurring Nightmare Moore.) 25% starters, 50% backups and 25% scrubs. That probably is pretty average, because Elways drafts are somewhat salvaged by finding quality players in later rounds (i.e. Green 7th, Trevathan 6th, Jackson 5th, Paradis 6th, Siemian 7th and possibly Doss 5th.) But his early picks... it's easier to list those he DIDN'T whiff—and don't say, "Von Miller," because anyone who can't find a perennial All Pro with their choice of "anyone but Cam Newton" should just give up.

In the early rounds it's Wolfe (2nd) Webster (3rd, low for a CB) Roby (1st) possibly Ray (1st) and hopefully Gotsis (2nd) Lynch (1st) or Bolles (1st.)

One caveat: It's too soon to be sure of this or last years draft, but there's some preliminary signs last years may have been good:


Rnd
Player
Pick
Pos
To
AP1
PB
St
CarAV
G
Cmp
Att
Yds
TD
Int
Att
Yds
TD
Rec
Yds
TD
Int
Sk


1
Paxton Lynch (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LyncPa00.htm)
26
QB
2016
0
0
0
1
3
49
83
497
2
1
11
25
0







2
Adam Gotsis (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GotsAd00.htm)
63
DT
2016
0
0
0
2
16















3
Justin Simmons (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SimmJu00.htm)
98
FS
2016
0
0
0
2
13











2
1.0


4
Devontae Booker (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BookDe00.htm)
136
RB
2016
0
0
0
5
16





174
612
4
31
265
1




5
Connor McGovern (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McGoCo00.htm)
144
G

0
0
0

















6
Andy Janovich (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JanoAn00.htm)
176
FB
2016
0
0
0
1
11





4
33
1
5
44
0




6
Will Parks (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/ParkWi01.htm)
219
S
2016
0
0
0
1
16











1



7
Riley Dixon (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DixoRi00.htm)
228
P
2016
0
0
1
2
16
1
1
16
0
0











Yet, once again, 1st and 2nd rounders Lynch and Gotsis look more like busts than studs so far; the saving grace is, as usual, promising signs from Simmons, McGovern, Janovich, Parks and Dixon. If a pair of second year 3rd and 6th round players are good enough we're considering trading a three-time Pro Bowler to create cap space, I guess they're doing OK so far; McGovern may end up starting by his second year, and Janovich remains our designated FB.


That's all well and good, but what do other teams look like? What does the average NFL team look like.

I welcome Hawg's analysis, if he can find it, I don't expect you to go dig it up.

My feeling is that we are probably average to above average in total man-game-starts for our drafted players since 2008. That would probably be the best metric to compare to other teams.

That being said, a really good team is tougher for draftees to break into the starting lineup. I.E., a really bad team might weirdly show up with a lot of draftee starts.

[Freyaka]

I don't care about the success rates of other teams. I care about my team. I don't call that list since 2011 par or better.


You should, that's how you benchmark if our performance is good or not.

If we have 15 starters in x amount of years and the rest of the league averages 13, we're doing better than the rest of the league. You can't expect us to be perfect. The draft doesn't work like that. You have to gauge our success vs the success of other teams, otherwise you set unreasonable expectations for the team that cannot be met.

[GEM]

Well, dammit, I'm not pulling that on 31 other teams. :laugh: :D Thanks guys. Didn't really think of it like that. :)

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Some of Ward’s teammates shook their heads in disbelief at the notion of losing him, a respected leader in the locker room and on defense.

Von Miller was one.

“I thought it was fake news,” he said. “I mean, I didn’t think — it’s serious like that? It can’t be that serious. T.J.’s been a great player for us but it’s the National Football League. You always get blindsided by stuff. T.J.’s been great for us so I don’t see any reason to (trade). Mr. (John) Elway and the guys upstairs, they push this organization in a great direction and I’m going to go continue to make championship moves for us. I don’t really — it has to be fake news. I really can’t believe in that too much.”

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/08/30/von-miller-broncos-tj-ward-trade-reports/

[Joel]

That's all well and good, but what do other teams look like? What does the average NFL team look like.

I welcome Hawg's analysis, if he can find it, I don't expect you to go dig it up.

My feeling is that we are probably average to above average in total man-game-starts for our drafted players since 2008. That would probably be the best metric to compare to other teams.

That being said, a really good team is tougher for draftees to break into the starting lineup. I.E., a really bad team might weirdly show up with a lot of draftee starts.
Yeah, but a lot of our washouts aren't starting ANYWHERE: Nearly 25% of Elways picks are already out of the league (that's if we only count guys who played as recently as last year, but are currently sitting hopefully by phones that will... never ring again.... :() Yet even in terms of games played it's better than comparing QUALITY of games: TWO Pro Bowlers (one of them Orange Julius, who'll be lucky to ever reach another Pro Bowl without buying a ticket) in SIX drafts of FORTY-SIX PLAYERS

Ya'll gonna sit there pretending that's near the league average? :tsk: Jerry freakin' JONES did as much in just the top HALF of last years draft alone.

Apart from a #2 overall pick anyone with a recent copy of The Sporting News could avoid screwing up, the only genuine gems are Wolfe, Roby and (mabye) Ray. Again, Elway makes up for it some by finding lots of roleplayers in later rounds and as UDFAs—but you can't "win from now on" with dozens of roleplayers, and the cap won't let you acquire all your team leaders and difference makers by just expecting to win FA every single year.

If Hawg still has his old research and/or someone else wants to hunt up the career-to-date performance of the half dozen drafts by the other 31 teams, great; I'd sincerely love to see it just to have hard evidence of how all our competitors are doing by comparison. But I won't hold my breath hoping their dice are as badly weighted as ours.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Joel-

You spent a lot of time posting stats and stating your opinion. What is the standard you're comparing that too?

Btw, it's really common for guys who were drafted 6 years ago to be out of the league. The average career length of a football player is a little less than 4 years. So unless you're giving us league averages to go along with the stats, they're meaningless

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Joel-

You spent a lot of time posting stats and stating your opinion. What is the standard you're comparing that too?

Btw, it's really common for guys who were drafted 6 years ago to be out of the league. The average career length of a football player is a little less than 4 years. So unless you're giving us league averages to go along with the stats, they're meaningless

For all we know what you're stating is like saying Mike Trout sucks because he fails to get a hit 67% of the time.

[MOtorboat]

A while back I looked at it real scientific and such, and to me the Broncos had done a good job since 2008. I weighed them by how much value that pick is supposed to add vs what they actually added using the AV measure on pro football reference as a measure of player value. I should go back and eliminate the pre-Elway years, but there weren't that many. That span, since 2008, included Marshall, Decker, and Doom, which made it higher.

I guess my point is that we suck, but maybe less than everyone else sucks.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/04/nfl-draft-performance-grades-best-drafting-teams-picks-classes-2012-2016

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/04/nfl-draft-performance-grades-best-drafting-teams-picks-classes-2012-2016

So, just above average.

[Freyaka]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/04/nfl-draft-performance-grades-best-drafting-teams-picks-classes-2012-2016

So basically dead center (and honestly, I can live with that.)

Though the articles full of shite...It lists Bradley Roby as one of our least valuable picks...My ass...

[Slick]

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/08/30/von-miller-broncos-tj-ward-trade-reports/

Ugh Von. Not you too. Good grief.

[BroncoWave]

Well, dammit, I'm not pulling that on 31 other teams. :laugh: :D Thanks guys. Didn't really think of it like that. :)

Come on GEM! You really need to start pulling your weight around here. :lol:

[GEM]

Come on GEM! You really need to start pulling your weight around here. :lol:

I have failed you all. :lol:

[MOtorboat]

So basically dead center (and honestly, I can live with that.)

Though the articles full of shite...It lists Bradley Roby as one of our least valuable picks...My ass...

His system is weighted against first round picks because it's looking for value in terms of draft stock, not necessarily performance. It's hard to get value in the first round, you're just looking to hold serve and not **** up.

[Simple Jaded]

TJ Ward, Cricker, Todd Davis, Adam Gotsis and a No1 for Aaron Donald.

[Joel]

Joel-

You spent a lot of time posting stats and stating your opinion. What is the standard you're comparing that too?
Just my gut feeling on how many backup, starter and Pro Bowl quality players a team can reasonably expect from a draft; nothing scientific. I won't sort through 1300 picks just trying to prove a negative, however curious I am about the overall NFL average.


Btw, it's really common for guys who were drafted 6 years ago to be out of the league. The average career length of a football player is a little less than 4 years. So unless you're giving us league averages to go along with the stats, they're meaningless
Fair enough, but if it's about average for 25% of draft picks bomb out of the league, 50% to be career backups and only 25% to ever become even average starters, I daresay most people put WAY too much stock in drafting. That's saying any team will be lucky to get more than ONE starter and a couple backups in any draft.


His system is weighted against first round picks because it's looking for value in terms of draft stock, not necessarily performance. It's hard to get value in the first round, you're just looking to hold serve and not **** up.
That's also why we come out dead center: Because our three "best values" are Trevathan, Jackson and Paradis, while our three "worst" are Oz, Roby and Latimer. Again: Elway gets a lot of great value in later rounds and as UDFAs, which mitigates whiffing the top of the draft. It's eminently plausible our three best values were a 6th, 5th and 6th round pick who are all still key starters for three different teams; doesn't change the reality that we had a 1st and a pair of 2nds who technically don't include ANY starters (though Roby's effectively a starter as our #1 NB.)

Back to what I said before: You can't "win from now on" consistently taking busts in the first two rounds but "making up" for it with lots of JaGs on the final day. A 6th rounder who gets 10 snaps a game for as many seasons is a GREAT "value" for his pick, but won't win anyone many championships.

[NightTrainLayne]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/04/nfl-draft-performance-grades-best-drafting-teams-picks-classes-2012-2016

So, based on that around average.

But as I stated earlier this kind of thinking has some inherent flaws. I used the example of a bad team where draftees start right away.

But look at the Cowboys. Dak Prescott. Yeah, great pick. But how does that pick get scored if Tony Romo doesn't get hurt? It's not anything like the +16 score they got. If Romo hadn't gotten hurt, we probably still don't know who Dak Prescott is.

So, there's a lot of guesswork in it, but it all probably averages out over the long run.

[DenBronx]

Fake News

Idiotic posts.


Really man?


Denver Post Broncos
Denver Post Broncos @PostBroncos
Von Miller on #Broncos safety T.J. Ward trade reports: "I thought it was fake news" (link: http://dpo.st/2wjHydj) dpo.st/2wjHydj
by @NickiJhabvala

[Simple Jaded]

Depends on the party.

[Hawgdriver]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/04/nfl-draft-performance-grades-best-drafting-teams-picks-classes-2012-2016

Hard to tell if they use AV from years after their rookie year. It doesn't look like it. So guys like Malik Jackson and Danny T look like crap picks.

[Hawgdriver]

Hard to tell if they use AV from years after their rookie year. It doesn't look like it. So guys like Malik Jackson and Danny T look like crap picks.

They link their spreadsheet, but it's unclear what they are doing. For example Derek Wolfe has a career AV of 35 but they list it as 32.

Anyway, what do you think about the rankings, MO? Reasonable?

[MOtorboat]

So, based on that around average.

But as I stated earlier this kind of thinking has some inherent flaws. I used the example of a bad team where draftees start right away.

But look at the Cowboys. Dak Prescott. Yeah, great pick. But how does that pick get scored if Tony Romo doesn't get hurt? It's not anything like the +16 score they got. If Romo hadn't gotten hurt, we probably still don't know who Dak Prescott is.

So, there's a lot of guesswork in it, but it all probably averages out over the long run.

Certainly true. It's hard to find a singular metric to measure draft efficiency and proficiency. That's as close of one as I've seen. And very similar to what Hawg was musing about previously.

But again, that's more about showing who finds the most value, not necessarily the best-drafting teams, i.e. the team that has hit on every first and second round pick for the last five years.

[MOtorboat]

They link their spreadsheet, but it's unclear what they are doing. For example Derek Wolfe has a career AV of 35 but they list it as 32.

Anyway, what do you think about the rankings, MO? Reasonable?

Reasonable enough. It's a question that has so many variables it's almost impossible to answer without a flaw in whatever method you use, yeah?

[VonDoom]

Is this thread still about Ward?

Cecil Lammey‏Verified account @CecilLammey 42m42 minutes ago

Latest buzz on #Broncos TJ Ward. Sources say there's not much of a market. @1043TheFan - speculation DEN would want at least a 4th rounder

Cecil Lammey‏Verified account @CecilLammey 41m41 minutes ago

There is speculation #Broncos could end up releasing TJ Ward then asking him to come back for a lower price. @1043TheFan

[Buff]

Is this thread still about Ward?

Cecil Lammey‏Verified account @CecilLammey 42m42 minutes ago

Latest buzz on #Broncos TJ Ward. Sources say there's not much of a market. @1043TheFan - speculation DEN would want at least a 4th rounder

Cecil Lammey‏Verified account @CecilLammey 41m41 minutes ago

There is speculation #Broncos could end up releasing TJ Ward then asking him to come back for a lower price. @1043TheFan

This is how Lammey gains a reputation as an idiot. There is a 0% chance that we release Ward and then re-sign him. Either Elway will convince him to take a paycut (while he is currently under contract), Elway will cut him, or he'll play at his current salary.

If he hits the open market he's going to get paid elsewhere. Zero chance he's released and re-signed.

[BeefStew25]

Lammey could have been one of the best. Instead he went for clicks. And dungeons and dragons.

[VonDoom]

This is how Lammey gains a reputation as an idiot. There is a 0% chance that we release Ward and then re-sign him. Either Elway will convince him to take a paycut (while he is currently under contract), Elway will cut him, or he'll play at his current salary.

If he hits the open market he's going to get paid elsewhere. Zero chance he's released and re-signed.

I was thinking the same thing - I was going to write "consider the source" before I posted, but I think we know by now. That being said, there's obviously something to the Ward situation. But your scenarios are the only possibilities, barring a trade, which is looking unlikely. Frankly, I'm not sure why he would take a pay cut, and then it comes down to whether Elway wants to free up more cap space while playing the young guys or just let him play out this year as it is.

[underrated29]

So who are we trying to trade for this year then?

Richardson is my guess.



Why else would we want TJ to take a paycut this year. Makes no sense whatsoever. What does extra cap room do for us this year? Nothing. The only reason for him to take a paycut is because we are planning on bringing on a large contract. I do not know who is all out there but the only two people I would be targetting are Luck and Sheldon. My guess says if we can get TJ to do it, we will make the trade for Sheldon Richardson.
I see no other reason to ask him to take a pay cut.

[VonDoom]

Andy Lindahl‏ @AndyKOASports

Heads up - @MikeKlis puts the percentage of cutting TJ at 95%. @OrangeBlue760 #Broncos #NFL

[Hawgdriver]

Reasonable enough. It's a question that has so many variables it's almost impossible to answer without a flaw in whatever method you use, yeah?

I could nail it if I got paid like these guys.

Better yet, like an analyst at a betting hedge fund.

[Hawgdriver]

Andy Lindahl‏ @AndyKOASports

Heads up - @MikeKlis puts the percentage of cutting TJ at 95%. @OrangeBlue760 #Broncos #NFL

wut

did Elway just throw in the towel for 2017 to ensure a good QB pick? Who the f*** on the roster could possibly be more important than bossward?

Gotta be just pure business. Shame.

[underrated29]

What do you think of my Theory below??? To me it is the only logical reason.


wut

did Elway just throw in the towel for 2017 to ensure a good QB pick? Who the f*** on the roster could possibly be more important than bossward?

Gotta be just pure business. Shame.


So who are we trying to trade for this year then?

Richardson is my guess.



Why else would we want TJ to take a paycut this year. Makes no sense whatsoever. What does extra cap room do for us this year? Nothing. The only reason for him to take a paycut is because we are planning on bringing on a large contract. I do not know who is all out there but the only two people I would be targetting are Luck and Sheldon. My guess says if we can get TJ to do it, we will make the trade for Sheldon Richardson.
I see no other reason to ask him to take a pay cut.

[MOtorboat]

What do you think of my Theory below??? To me it is the only logical reason.

I think there'd be only one reason Elway would be trying to clear cap space. Just IMO, but I don't know the player exactly is.

[BeefStew25]

One players does a roster not make.

They must like the young guys.

[underrated29]

I think there'd be only one reason Elway would be trying to clear cap space. Just IMO, but I don't know the player exactly is.


But it would sound like a trade of a rather prominent player, right? If we are looking to clear space (I think we have like what 12 mil in space?) plus the exra few mil from TJ, said player would have to have a contract of at least half that, because we always like to carry between 4-7 mil in emergency cap.

What players would have a cap hit of 7-ish mil (12 mil cap + 3 mil TJ = 15mil. And we keep about half that)?


Sheldon? Not luck (God I wish!!!). Is there a RT? Or maybe a TE? or an ILB? or DE/DT aside from Sheldon? I cannot think of any other position that we would warrant breaking up TJ to add a player of that caliber.

[MOtorboat]

But it would sound like a trade of a rather prominent player, right? If we are looking to clear space (I think we have like what 12 mil in space?) plus the exra few mil from TJ, said player would have to have a contract of at least half that, because we always like to carry between 4-7 mil in emergency cap.

What players would have a cap hit of 7-ish mil (12 mil cap + 3 mil TJ = 15mil. And we keep about half that)?


Sheldon? Not luck (God I wish!!!). Is there a RT? Or maybe a TE? or an ILB? or DE/DT aside from Sheldon? I cannot think of any other position that we would warrant breaking up TJ to add a player of that caliber.

I dunno, I'm just saying, if it's cap related, he must be looking at someone.

[underrated29]

I dunno, I'm just saying, if it's cap related, he must be looking at someone.


I think we can rule out TE. There arent any TEs out there making 7+ that we could realistically trade for.


That leaves:
RT
DE/DT
QB
ILB
LG



I think we can rule out LG- Barbre was a decent pick up. He wont cost a lot and he is better than Max. He is not amazing but good all around. So LG is out.


ILB- I could see this. They like Todd Davis and Corey Nelson, but a prominent badass could shore up the Run d and RBs out of the backfield. BUt who out there is a 7mil ILB? Clay Mathews? Navarro Bowman? Elway and Lynch may have some connections there. I would put Bowman at a 20% likely.

QB-Any QB that makes 7mil this year is probably no better than Trev or Pax....Unless Kaep wants to come play for us for amount. Elway did want him before. I would say this could have a 50% chance of occurring. Still, it does not feel right. Sloter imo can be as good as Kaep.

DE/DT- we know Richardson. We know we had interest in trading for him during the draft. We know he is on the block. We need DE/DT help (Crick sucks). This seems most likely, but we knows this. Who else is a DE/DT that maybe makes around 7+ mil that we could trade for? Would the texans dare try to part with Clowney? Would we even want him? Who do the bills or Bengals or Dolphins have? We seem to like poaching their players.


RT- I do not know of any, let alone any that would be up for trade. PLus we are paying Menelik quite a bit of money. This seems very unlikely.

[BroncoWave]

Oh god I hope it's Kap. Between the fact that I think he would be our best QB and the reactions it would spark on here, that would bring me so much joy.

[Freyaka]

Andy Lindahl‏ @AndyKOASports

Heads up - @MikeKlis puts the percentage of cutting TJ at 95%. @OrangeBlue760 #Broncos #NFL

Well...Lammey's one thing, if the Denver Broncos media mouthpiece says it, that's telling.

[Freyaka]

I dunno, I'm just saying, if it's cap related, he must be looking at someone.

It'd be interesting if Drew Brees was in orange and blue week one... #notsayingbutjustsayin

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Kap would be our best QB? :rofl:

[Mike]

Kap had no interest in playing for anything other than money last year. He turned down a chance to lead the Broncos. I can't imagine that sat well with Elway. Add in the circus he brings. Add that he just isn't that good.

I can't imagine there is any chance he comes to Denver.

[DenBronx]

Oh god I hope it's Kap. Between the fact that I think he would be our best QB and the reactions it would spark on here, that would bring me so much joy.

Yeah, I can tell you don't give a shit about the Broncos and just want drama.

[DenBronx]

I dunno, I'm just saying, if it's cap related, he must be looking at someone.

It'd be interesting if Drew Brees was in orange and blue week one... #notsayingbutjustsayin

Now that I would love to see. Cutting Ward for Brees would make sense but not Kap. Kap isn't even as good as Trevor.

[BroncoWave]

Yeah, I can tell you don't give a shit about the Broncos and just want drama.

Except I do give a shit about the Broncos, and I think Kap would give us a better chance to win than TS. The drama would just be an added bonus.

[VonDoom]

Well...Lammey's one thing, if the Denver Broncos media mouthpiece says it, that's telling.

Yeah, if Klis is reporting it, that's very telling. More from him today:


No, Von Miller, it’s not fake news. The Broncos are expected to part ways, preferably through trade, with strong safety T.J. Ward by 2 p.m. Saturday.

It’s understandable Ward’s teammates are expressing displeasure their starting strong safety is about to leave, either through trade or release. But that’s why Vance Joseph is paid the big bucks as head coach.

Yes, Ward’s non-guaranteed, $4.5 million salary is a factor. The Broncos can fit it into their salary cap budget, but that money could also be used to help secure restricted free agents Brandon McManus, who has been nails in kicking field goals and 33-yard extra points this preseason, or linebacker Todd Davis to long-term extensions.

But the biggest reason Ward became vulnerable is while he missed the entire preseason with a hamstring injury, second-year player Justin Simmons blossomed.

Simmons and his 2016 draft classmate Will Parks are ready for more playing time. And the Broncos may also want to make room on their 53-man roster for another young defensive back, including undrafted rookie safety Jamal Carter, who is a larger version of Ward in the box.

Trade or no trade, Ward’s time with the Broncos may be down to hours.

http://www.9news.com/sports/broncos-notes-kyle-sloter-tj-ward-updates/469608714

[BroncoWave]

I still think I'd rather keep him and get a comp pick for him next year, but I do get the move. Especially if we use that cap space for another piece this year.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Except I do give a shit about the Broncos, and I think Kap would give us a better chance to win than TS. The drama would just be an added bonus.

Is it lonely being the only one currently providing drama about Kap?

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I still think I'd rather keep him and get a comp pick for him next year, but I do get the move. Especially if we use that cap space for another piece this year.

Sheldon Richardon would make sense.

[Freyaka]

Sheldon Richardon would make sense.

IMO We'll be looking for a QB. Richardson isn't happening, we'll roll with what we've got defensively.

[VonDoom]

IMO We'll be looking for a QB. Richardson isn't happening, we'll roll with what we've got defensively.

If they want to inexplicably jettison Sloter, word is that they're looking for a young, cheap QB, not a veteran (four or more years of service time) so they don't have to guarantee salary when Lynch comes back in a few weeks. If they're looking into anyone better than that (as in, not a short term interchangeable replacement piece), I have no idea who that is, and it would mess with the whole "Trevor is our starter long term" thing.

Richardson actually makes sense in this context - whether it happens or not remains to be seen. We currently have about $11 million in cap space. Richardson has an $8 million cap hit, which would be cutting it close for how Elway runs things. Cutting Ward frees up an additional $4.5 million. I think this would be a poor idea, but at least it would be something. If Ward gets cut for no other reason than to save cap space, that will take a toll on our locker room.

[Freyaka]

If they want to inexplicably jettison Sloter, word is that they're looking for a young, cheap QB, not a veteran (four or more years of service time) so they don't have to guarantee salary when Lynch comes back in a few weeks. If they're looking into anyone better than that (as in, not a short term interchangeable replacement piece), I have no idea who that is, and it would mess with the whole "Trevor is our starter long term" thing.

Richardson actually makes sense in this context - whether it happens or not remains to be seen. We currently have about $11 million in cap space. Richardson has an $8 million cap hit, which would be cutting it close for how Elway runs things. Cutting Ward frees up an additional $4.5 million. I think this would be a poor idea, but at least it would be something. If Ward gets cut for no other reason than to save cap space, that will take a toll on our locker room.

Biggest reason I don't see Richardson happening is we have to pay Brandon McBadass.

[chazoe60]

Andrew Luck, baby. Mark it down. It's happening.

[Buff]

The worst part is that it doesn't sound like there's going to be any corresponding move. Just making room for the young guys and hoarding the cap room.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

The worst part is that it doesn't sound like there's going to be any corresponding move. Just making room for the young guys and hoarding the cap room.

Sadly this may be true. I read a few weeks ago the Broncos were tight on cash.

Should this scenario play out I don't think it will go well with the locker room.

[chazoe60]

The worst part is that it doesn't sound like therexcept e's going to be any corresponding move. Just making room for the young guys and hoarding the cap room.

Except for the whole Andrew Luck thing that I outlined in the post above yours.

[LawDog]

The scenario in the linked article where Sloter is the backup for week one, and then a vested vet is signed makes the most sense - assuming Kyle shows enough tonight that they are comfortable with him in that role. 1) as mentioned in the article there is only the season pay guarantee for vested vets on the active roster in week 1, after that it is a weekly rental. 2) it protects Sloter because once he gets waived after the first game, another team must sign him to active 53 so the Broncos are in a much better position to keep him on their practice squad. Only downside is if that vested vet is a real head scratcher it could cause some lingering bitterness in the locker room after losing TJ.

Saturday should be fun. And it is hotter than hell in SoCal so I will just stay inside, drink beer, pop some corn, and watch the festivities.

[VonDoom]

Biggest reason I don't see Richardson happening is we have to pay Brandon McBadass.

I saw this mentioned by Klis earlier too. We're really worried about having to pony up money for a kicker in the next year? That can't be what the Ward thing is about.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

I saw this mentioned by Klis earlier too. We're really worried about having to pony up money for a kicker in the next year? That can't be what the Ward thing is about.

We might be having cash flow problems, which doesn't send a good message to the locker room. I don't understand the squawking about cash flow. We didn't have any major signings this offseason

[Freyaka]

I gotta laugh at the people ripping me earlier in the thread over saying Simmons would be the likely replacement for Ward saying he's a different position...

http://www.9news.com/sports/broncos-notes-kyle-sloter-tj-ward-updates/469608714


Simmons ready to replace T.J.

:cool:

[VonDoom]

I gotta laugh at the people ripping me earlier in the thread over saying Simmons would be the likely replacement for Ward saying he's a different position...

http://www.9news.com/sports/broncos-notes-kyle-sloter-tj-ward-updates/469608714



:cool:

The likeliest scenario would still be moving Stewart over to SS officially - he looks the part. Safeties are often interchangeable nowadays anyway, so I don't know if it much matters.

[topscribe]

The likeliest scenario would still be moving Stewart over to SS officially - he looks the part. Safeties are often interchangeable nowadays anyway, so I don't know if it much matters.
That's what I was thinking. Stewart is a fierce hitter and is built for the part, while Simmons is
faster and rangier, more the center fielder type. I would think that would be where Woods
would put them. But what do I know?

[ShaneFalco]

worst move ever.

[Canmore]

worst move ever.

Hyperbole!

[topscribe]

Hyperbole!
Superfluity!

[turftoad]

This sucks:

Report: Broncos expected to cut T.J. Ward if they can’t trade him.

Mike Klis of KUSA reports that the Broncos are expected to release Ward if they are unable to make a trade with another team. The move would clear $4.5 million from the cap and save the same amount in real dollars, which Klis reports is a factor in the team’s thinking because it would provide money that could go toward extensions for players like kicker Brandon McManus and linebacker Todd Davis.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/08/31/report-broncos-expected-to-cut-t-j-ward-if-they-cant-trade-him/

[ShaneFalco]

DAVIS AND MCANUS?

You gotta be shitting me.

A ******* kicker and the worst cover lb in the nfl.

[BeefStew25]

Safeties nowadays are interchangeable.

Stewart could be SS.

But who knows.

[dogfish]

giving away depth over cash at this point in the season? dumb move. . .

[Poet]

We're all in reactionary mode, but man this feels like an unforced error. Ward will probably become a Patriot or a Raider, too.

[ShaneFalco]

If he cuts T.J. Ward in order to extend a kicker's contract...im gunna lose my shit

[BroncoWave]

Overreactions are fun.

[Poet]

If he cuts T.J. Ward in order to extend a kicker's contract...im gunna lose my shit

How mad would be you, 10 being infinitely mad and 1 being tepidly irritated.

[ShaneFalco]

over 9000

[Poet]

over 9000

Prepare to Vegeta.

[Northman]

That would really suck to lose Ward, i didnt think we were in such dire straits with the cap right now. I can understand securing McManus, but Davis?

[ShaneFalco]

i dont understand securing mcmanus.

There is a million kickers looking for a job across america.

pay them minimum and sign them instead.

Let someone else pay a kicker 4m per year, unless they are so terrified that kicking will be the main source of our offensive points.

[GEM]

i dont understand securing mcmanus.

There is a million kickers looking for a job across america.

pay them minimum and sign them instead.

Let someone else pay a kicker 4m per year, unless they are so terrified that kicking will be the main source of our offensive points.

Have you seen this offense? McManus just may be God this season.

[underrated29]

Tampa burned a 2nd on a kicker and juust cut him. Now their new kicker missed a few fgs in a row. Pay your kickers! Pay the point scorers. Screw the ones who dont directly score you points or keep them from scoring points. (Todd Davis looking at you bud)

[Poet]

Davis isn't really all that good....we would still have money to retain McManus, no? There aren't any QB's who are even legitimate journeymen QB's at the moment, right? I saw a list yesterday, and that was horrid.

[ShaneFalco]

Have you seen this offense? McManus just may be God this season.

dont scare me gem

[ShaneFalco]

Davis is the worst.

I cant believe they actually want to extend him. I was hoping to watch him leave.

oh well, at least they got rid of Norwood.

[Buff]

I think the plan is to re-sign Davis and then move him to safety.

[Poet]

I think the plan is to re-sign Davis and then move him to safety.

This is joke?

[Buff]

This is joke?

Yes, part of the long running "move him to safety" BF meme that originated with Champ Bailey. I'll be here all week.

[Poet]

Yes, part of the long running "move him to safety" BF meme that originated with Champ Bailey. I'll be here all week.

I was hoping it wasn't the meme and you were really that stupid.

[BroncoWave]

I was hoping it wasn't the meme and you were really that stupid.

Him using it as a meme doesn't necessarily mean he really isn't that stupid.

[Poet]

Him using it as a meme doesn't necessarily mean he really isn't that stupid.

Good point - this is still up for debate!

[ShaneFalco]

@BMarshh54

Letting go of TJ would b a mistake. With all the plays he's made and leadership he's brought. He deserves to at least play out his contract.


So we gunna divide the lockeroom over a kicker extension?

[ShaneFalco]

Speak up marshall.

**** a kicker extension.

#TeamWard

[MOtorboat]

Weapon:

10911

[Timmy!]

As a fan I hate it. As a business, I get it.

[Tned]

As a fan I hate it. As a business, I get it.

Ditto. At this point its much better for the team to lock up a very good kicker and good MLB, then a safety that there is no chance we resign next year.

[topscribe]

@BMarshh54

Letting go of TJ would b a mistake. With all the plays he's made and leadership he's brought. He deserves to at least play out his contract.


So we gunna divide the lockeroom over a kicker extension?
So then, are the inmates going to run the asylum? Those players are there because Elway
gave them a job. He took a 2-14 team and eventually won the Super Bowl with it. The
team has been one that other teams have not wanted to play, all because of what Elway
has brought into it.

Why have the New England Patriots remained on top? Well, of course, several reasons, not
the least of which is Tom Brady. But another is that Belichick knows when to part ways with
a player, and he's not the least sentimental about it. Elway is cut in that mould. He has
ushered new talent into the safety position -- as well as others -- and that position needs
room to hold it all. Simmons is the next star there. He deserves to start. And now they've
discovered Carter.

I'm a big fan of Ward's, but something has to give. I hate it, but it just makes sense.

[ShaneFalco]

Ditto. At this point its much better for the team to lock up a very good kicker and good MLB, then a safety that there is no chance we resign next year.

so at worst we would get a compensatory pick for keeping him?

Sounds like a horrible loss!

[dogfish]

Weapon:


just don't ask him to make a long kick if it's cold out. . .

[Poet]

just don't ask him to make a long kick if it's cold out. . .

Kubiak set him up to fail, you ******* monster!!!!

[Cugel]

Superfluity!

Surplusage?

[Tned]

so at worst we would get a compensatory pick for keeping him?

Sounds like a horrible loss!

If he signs a 4 year, $30 million contract, we aren't going to get much in terms of compensatory. Maybe a 5th or 7th, depending on who we sign, we might get no compensatory pick.

[topscribe]

Surplusage?
lol

[MOtorboat]

just don't ask him to make a long kick if it's cold out. . .

Might have to.

[Simple Jaded]

Todd Davis is garbage, I'd rather keep Ward and move him to MLB.

[topscribe]

Todd Davis is garbage, I'd rather keep Ward and move him to MLB.
Ward is very undersized for full-time ILB.

[Simple Jaded]

Ward is very undersized for full-time ILB.

Davis is 230 and slow af.

[topscribe]

Davis is 230 and slow af.
T.J. is 200. He's a good player, but . . .

[Simple Jaded]

T.J. is 200. He's a good player, but . . .

I was only kidding about moving him to ILB, but now that I think about it I'd still rather keep Ward and move him to ILB than extend Davis.

[topscribe]

I was only kidding about moving him to ILB, but now that I think about it I'd still rather keep Ward and move him to ILB than extend Davis.
I understand. T.J. is a very good player. Problem is, safety is loaded with good players. And they're all young. Except T.J.

[ShaneFalco]

Talib will end up shooting someone if Ward leaves

[Freyaka]

Shane, you do realize Elam is our alltime leading scorer right? Most team's leading scorer is their kicker because that's the person who is out there the most (be it a field goal or an XP) a reliable kicker's a whole hell of a lot more important than you make it sound.

[Freyaka]

Talib will end up shooting someone if Ward leaves

Can we pick the target? I've got a nomination from this thread for who he can take aim for.

[Poet]

Can we pick the target? I've got a nomination from this thread for who he can take aim for.

He's just going to end up shooting himself in the ass.

[topscribe]

He's just going to end up shooting himself in the ass.
Take Aqib's guns away from him, and you might save a life.



His own . . .

[Simple Jaded]

Can we pick the target? I've got a nomination from this thread for who he can take aim for.

Todd Davis?

[ShaneFalco]

Elway gunna be rocking teflon on Saturday like 50 cent

[dogfish]

oh, man. . . todd davis might be jaded's biggest whipping boy since ben hamilton. . . :lol:

[Timmy!]

oh, man. . . todd davis might be jaded's biggest whipping boy since ben hamilton. . . :lol:

Sunshine would like a word......

[Northman]

Tampa burned a 2nd on a kicker and juust cut him. Now their new kicker missed a few fgs in a row. Pay your kickers! Pay the point scorers. Screw the ones who dont directly score you points or keep them from scoring points. (Todd Davis looking at you bud)

Yep.

Careful for what you wish for. Contrary to belief kickers dont grow on trees and are not easily replaced. If you have one of the better ones in the league than keep him/them. I think back to SB50 with Gano missing that FG in the second half and how deflating it must of been for the Panthers. Than he went on the following year in the opening game and missed that one which sent the Panthers into a horrible year. Dont underestimate consistent and accurate kickers.

[BroncoWave]

Yep.

Careful for what you wish for. Contrary to belief kickers dont grow on trees and are not easily replaced. If you have one of the better ones in the league than keep him/them. I think back to SB50 with Gano missing that FG in the second half and how deflating it must of been for the Panthers. Than he went on the following year in the opening game and missed that one which sent the Panthers into a horrible year. Dont underestimate consistent and accurate kickers.

Don't forget Gostkowski missing the XP the week before either. Probably one of the biggest keys to us beating the Pats.

[Poet]

I just want you to believe!

[Joel]

The longer these rumors last, the stupider they sound. If it really is about Lynchs injury....

We're actually dumping a Pro Bowl defensive captain for a castoff QB to sit on our bench until next week??!

What are we going to get (for a week, on the bench) with that $4½M savings? Every team in the league maintains a death grip on any decent QB who'll play for <$10M. If we really want to go there and actually think someone worth having (for a week, on the bench) will be available, well, his name's already come up in the thread:

Cutting Talib would give us an extra $10M to spend on a QB (for a week, on the bench) so we might actually be able to afford a good one. Plus Ward's a year younger, plays cleaner, and never shot himself in the ass with a gun he illegally took into a strip club. Granted, we no longer have the option of promoting Roby to #2 CB and re-signing Webster to play the slot (or making Webster #2 and either Roby or Harris #1, with the other in the slot.) Pity.

This is just incomprehensible to me, especially since I hear (was working, so couldn't see) Sloter was lights out last night: He wasn't good enough to be Siemians BACKUP for ONE WEEK until Lynch is healthy? 'Cause I've seen a whoooole lot of people saying they'd prefer he backup Siemian PERMANENTLY, whatever Lynch does or doesn't.

Maybe if they're doing that Richardson deal everyone keeps talking up, or bringing in a young stud OT so whichever untested starting QB is learning on the job won't have to worry about edge rushers on either side. But... trading or possibly even outright RELEASING a 3X Pro Bowler and defensive leader for a week of benchwarming by some guy who couldn't win a starting QB job anywhere else, well, that's just insane.

[Joel]

Tampa burned a 2nd on a kicker and juust cut him. Now their new kicker missed a few fgs in a row. Pay your kickers! Pay the point scorers. Screw the ones who dont directly score you points or keep them from scoring points. (Todd Davis looking at you bud)
Yep.

Careful for what you wish for. Contrary to belief kickers dont grow on trees and are not easily replaced. If you have one of the better ones in the league than keep him/them. I think back to SB50 with Gano missing that FG in the second half and how deflating it must of been for the Panthers. Than he went on the following year in the opening game and missed that one which sent the Panthers into a horrible year. Dont underestimate consistent and accurate kickers.
Don't forget Gostkowski missing the XP the week before either. Probably one of the biggest keys to us beating the Pats.
Meanwhile, Kickalicious has made every NFL kick he's tried, yet still sits by a silent phone; really don't get that, even with him being a lefty. It's not like the 49 and 50 yarders he nailed down the middle with plenty of clearance during the Lions preseason were chip shots. The only real knock on him is that he doesn't consistently get touchbacks, but since touchbacks have been moved out to the 25, putting the ball just a few yards deep into the end zone (and he DOES do that much) is actually a good thing, because it'll usually be run out but rarely get past the 20 (there's a reason touchbacks were spotted there for like, a OVER A CENTURY.)

[Simple Jaded]

Sunshine would like a word......

I like Sunshine, just not as much as others. He's improved but he'll always be white.

[LawDog]

I like Sunshine, just not as much as others. He's improved but he'll always be white.

Ed McCaffrey is on line 1. And, no, I am not making that comparison.

[Joel]

Ed McCaffrey is on line 1. And, no, I am not making that comparison.
Saw some woman in a Denver #87 jersey at Wally World the other day, got excited, then swung 'round behind her and remembered Decker wore it too. Am I old now? :(

[topscribe]

Saw some woman in a Denver #87 jersey at Wally World the other day, got excited, then swung 'round behind her and remembered Decker wore it too. Am I old now? :(
You talking about Rich Jackson? I have his jersey, still wear it occasionally . . .

[BroncoJoe]

You talking about Rich Jackson? I have his jersey, still wear it occasionally . . .

Nope. He was talking about Lionel Taylor.

[topscribe]

Nope. He was talking about Lionel Taylor.
And he thought he was old! :lol:

[Joel]

Oh, thank God: Until you geezers showed up I was afraid... what were we talking about again...? :confused:

[topscribe]

Oh, thank God: Until you geezers showed up I was afraid... what were we talking about again...? :confused:
Ummm . . . who are you?

[Freyaka]

Oh, thank God: Until you geezers showed up I was afraid... what were we talking about again...? :confused:

Someone get this man some depends!

[Simple Jaded]

Get off my lawn!

[Simple Jaded]

Ed McCaffrey is on line 1. And, no, I am not making that comparison.

Speaking of overrated.

[Joel]

Ummm . . . who are you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sTHCP3q12w

[LawDog]

Speaking of overrated.

My wife just said she will cut you. She loves fast Eddie.

[GEM]

Saw some woman in a Denver #87 jersey at Wally World the other day, got excited, then swung 'round behind her and remembered Decker wore it too. Am I old now? :(

I burned my Decker. It was great in the bonfire.

[GEM]

Speaking of overrated.

:shocked: Shut your filthy whore mouth!




:D

[CoachChaz]

Different positions. Come on, how many times I hear this. Ward is box safety his replacement is parks. Ward out parks starts not simmons.

As for leadership ward does more then just that he sets the tempo of defense. He may not be the best but he is the heart of it.

He was also leading tackler last season so to say he whiffed on tackles a lot is a reach.

Might have already been said somewhere in 15 pages, but if Ward goes...Stewart moves to SS and Simmons plays FS. SS is better for Stewart anyway and Simmons is the best FS on the team already.

[Ziggy]

Reading the tweets, it sounds like they might be restructuring TJ.

[VonDoom]

Reading the tweets, it sounds like they might be restructuring TJ.

Yeah, there are some hints out there. We'll see if they're true

[Joel]

I burned my Decker. It was great in the bonfire.
Well, I didn't think it was YOU. :tongue: *shrugs* I got nothing against Decker, but he wasn't a Bronco long and hasn't been for a long time. Eddie Mac's just the opposite: He couldn't control who drafted him, but "got here as fast as he could," and stayed till he'd helped us win a couple SBs, and finally retired a Bronco. :salute:

[Joel]

Reading the tweets, it sounds like they might be restructuring TJ.
Sure hope so; if anything ever had "lose the locker room" written all over it, outright cutting a defensive captain at the last minute out of the blue while defensive and even OFFENSIVE players raised Hell about it on social media sure does.

[DenBronx]

Reading the tweets, it sounds like they might be restructuring TJ.

Hope that's true Ziggy. Ward brings ALOT of attitude to this defense and has a skill set to back it up. He is a big reason why no fly zone exists. I will be really disappointed if he isn't in our long term plans.

And you do have to wonder what would happen to the locker chemistry room if he is cut.

[BroncoWave]

Hope that's true Ziggy. Ward brings ALOT of attitude to this defense and has a skill set to back it up. He is a big reason why no fly zone exists. I will be really disappointed if he isn't in our long term plans.

And you do have to wonder what would happen to the locker chemistry room if he is cut.

I'd just about be willing to guarantee he isn't in the long term plans. If they were this close to cutting him now, I don't see them trying to hard to bring him back next year, especially with the young depth behind him.

[topscribe]

Hope that's true Ziggy. Ward brings ALOT of attitude to this defense and has a skill set to back it up. He is a big reason why no fly zone exists. I will be really disappointed if he isn't in our long term plans.

And you do have to wonder what would happen to the locker chemistry room if he is cut.
They would be disappointed, but they would accept it and play on. That's the type of character in the locker room.

I really believe that . . .

[MOtorboat]

Reading the tweets, it sounds like they might be restructuring TJ.

I really don't understand the point of this. They have nominal season cap space, why would they be restructuring someone at the end of camp who won't even be under contract come March?

[BroncoWave]

I really don't understand the point of this. They have nominal season cap space, why would they be restructuring someone at the end of camp who won't even be under contract come March?

The only thing that makes sense at this point is cash flow issues.

[MOtorboat]

The only thing that makes sense at this point is cash flow issues.

If a couple mil on a good safety is the difference that might be a very concerning issue down the road.

[slim]

I really don't understand the point of this. They have nominal season cap space, why would they be restructuring someone at the end of camp who won't even be under contract come March?

Well, doesn't restructuring often include additional years?

[BeefStew25]

There isn't any NFL team with cash flow issues. None.

[Buff]

I really don't understand the point of this. They have nominal season cap space, why would they be restructuring someone at the end of camp who won't even be under contract come March?

Now that teams are allowed to roll over cap space from year to year, I think a good front office is trying to hoard it where they can. So if they can grab $2 mil here, it's not nothing. That said - I still am in favor of just paying the man if he's not willing to take a paycut (and I don't know why he would).

[dogfish]

make it happen, duke. . . we want him on that wall, we need him on that wall!

in places deep down that we don't like to talk about at cocktail parties. . .

[Nomad]

Leadership.....something that is hard to replace. Yes....you can talent & skill. I'm a fan of TJ, and hope he remains a BRONCO.

[Poet]

There isn't any NFL team with cash flow issues. None.

Revenue sharing eliminated that years ago. To the point that Mike Brown once told Jerry Jones "I want more of your money." Brown wasn't under threat of going out of business, it was more of letting him know how he'd vote when it comes to future dealings -- you know, that Brown would very much be there.

[Cugel]

Oh, thank God: Until you geezers showed up I was afraid... what were we talking about again...? :confused:

What else? The days of our youth!

10921

[dogfish]

Colonel Jessup still gives me goosebumps, makes me wanna enlist. Too bad I'm transgender.

are you good at running wind sprints?

[Tned]

If a couple mil on a good safety is the difference that might be a very concerning issue down the road.

About five years ago Ted Sundquist wrote an article, and it was titled something like, "For Broncos, it's about cash, not cap." I'm not sure if I could find it again, I posted it on here or on Mania.

Bottom line, he said that unlike some of the bigger market clubs, the Broncos are more hand to mouth in terms of cash flow. To the point that they schedule bonus payouts to coincide with the two different season ticket holder payment dates.

My guess is that their cash flow situation hasn't changed dramatically from then until now, so for a small market club like the Broncos, especially now without having an owner that might be willing to dig into his pocket, a couple mil here or there might very well be a factor in managing their cash flow.

This isn't the article I remember, where he referred to actually timing bonuses to season ticket payments, but he still explains a bit about the Denver situation.



Well, the club has an idea of what they can afford, both CASH and CAP. That's something many fans don't understand, that not all clubs have a lot of available CASH to make things immediately happen. We were a CASH strapped club in Denver. But you set your parameters and then try to build in wiggle room so that the agent feels he's done his job as well. It's like anything, you have to be able to walk away. There's always give and take. I'd say agents lose track of the fact that you as a club have more players to deal with than just theirs. They tend to operate in that vacuum and it can make finding an agreement...difficult.

http://rebrn.com/re/i-am-ted-sundquist-former-gm-of-the-denver-broncos-ama-778310/

[ShaneFalco]

Cutting TJ ward is like cutting Brain Dawkins. The heart and soul of the defense will be gone

[GEM]

Well this turned into a cluster****. If they were going to cut him, I'd say they would have done it early so he'd have a chance to land somewhere as all the reports say there really wasn't a market for him tradewise. Now if he stays gonna be pretty weird. Wish they kept tighter reigns on this info getting out if it's not actually going to happen.

[Northman]

Cutting TJ ward is like cutting Brain Dawkins. The heart and soul of the defense will be gone

While i dont think Ward has quite the legacy of Dawkins i agree with you in the sense that it would be a bigger loss than most people realize.

[Poet]

While i dont think Ward has quite the legacy of Dawkins i agree with you in the sense that it would be a bigger loss than most people realize.

He's not a great coverage guy, but we saw what Kelce did to us when Ward was out - god that game hurt.

[Northman]

He's not a great coverage guy, but we saw what Kelce did to us when Ward was out - god that game hurt.

Atwater was actually never a great cover guy either. You can find fault in a lot of great players but i love that Ward is always around the ball one way or the other.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Ward's coverage abilities against TE's are highly underrated. He's much better in coverage than Atwater was. Atwater's saving grace in the passing game was giving guys alligator arms.

[Joel]

They would be disappointed, but they would accept it and play on. That's the type of character in the locker room.

I really believe that . . .
Except they wouldn't just feel betrayed, they'd be thinking "if it can happen to a three-time Pro Bowler, key championship member and defensive captain in his prime, what'll happen to ME?" If we want guys like Wolfe to continue taking pay cuts just to keep the band together, we better keep the band together.


What else? The days of our youth!
Draw the lace and black curtains
And shut out the whole truth

[Tned]

Well this turned into a cluster****. If they were going to cut him, I'd say they would have done it early so he'd have a chance to land somewhere as all the reports say there really wasn't a market for him tradewise. Now if he stays gonna be pretty weird. Wish they kept tighter reigns on this info getting out if it's not actually going to happen.

Agreed it will be weird if he stays, but i think they will get over it. If he is cut, I don't see him having an issue being picked up by another club. Big difference between giving up a draft pick for a guy in his final year and either claiming him off waivers or waiting for him to clear waivers and then just signing him, possibly to multi year contract.

I think TJ will be fine, question is will the Broncos.